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124 Responses to Paige Richardson’s Testimony Out of Mormonism And Into the Arms of Jesus
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Rick B,
Your reference to ‘brown eyes’ left yourself too open to interpretation. It could have been seen as a racist remark. It could have been seen as a personal attack, I believe that is something which is strictly forbidden at Mormon Coffee. Comments like that do not advance the discussion in any way. I think that is what Ken was getting at that you are not ‘earning points’.
You said the following,
“I think you need to by the red letter edtion, all the Words of Jesus are in red so you cannot miss them, Jesus spoke more about Hell than He did about Heaven. So if Jesus spoke it and you claim to believe the Bible then we have a problem. Do you really read the Bible?”
It still remains that the christian version of hell is a form of mind control. And it is hypocritical for a fundementalist chrisitian to say that mormons are using mind control with their version of hell.
So, just deal with the bible passages if you really want to make a point. (Matt. 12: 31-32 (Mark 3: 29; Luke 12: 10). It sort of sounds like these are saying that once your a christian, and you say its not true, you cannot be forgiven of this sin.
I believe that this is another tactic of Islam. In fact I have heard that you can be legally killed in some arabic countries if you leave islam or denounce it after being a muslim. Sounds like thought control to the highest degree. The original statement came from falcon, saying that Mormons were using mind control, well others did also. If the nazarene spoke more about hell than heaven, then he used it also…
Falcon,
Just because you and others have shown me a list of scriptures and some writings of people from hundreds of years ago does not mean that I agree with your interpretation of the scriptures nor the writings of those non-authoritative people. Yes, they do make sense and are a plausible interpretation, but they do not fit with what I have decided to believe in – and as I have said I have had my proof besides spiritual proof. It has nothing to do with the ‘cost’ of changing being too high. And I do appreciate all who have contributed to my education about the Trinity. I have been finding out a lot and understanding more about the ideology of the Trinity.
As far as works goes – what happens if you did decide to start living a life of debauchery now? Would you still get into heaven? If not why not? If your works stop you from getting into heaven then logically they do have a role in your salvation. I keep coming back to this – faith without works is dead. If you do not have works to compliment your faith it is DEAD. That means regardless of what you have faith in it will do you no good because it is DEAD. So please answer the questions at the beginning of this paragraph.
Sub said
Maybe it’s just me, but it seems your dodging the issue.
Where Did I mention Islam Killing people? Where Did I mention Mind control? I cannot speak for Falcon, and His statement is not what I was speaking about.
But since you seem to want to say Jesus might have used speaking of Hell as a form of Mind Control then I guess you LDS have a problem.
The Problem is, If you cannot take Jesus at His word and Believe Him when He speaks of Hell, then you make Him a liar. If He lied and you cannot trust Him, then Why bother Reading or Quoting the Bible? Then If this Jesus Cannot be trusted, then how can you read or trust the BoM since it is this same Jesus from the Bible that supposedly went to visit America and gave the word over their.
Now as to Hell, Jesus told a story that I believe was true and not simply a parable, He spoke of the Rich man dying and being in torment in Hell. I believe it is true because this is a story Jesus used a person by Name, unlike parables where He did not mention people by names.
So How do you handle this story? Is it simply Mind control by Jesus?
Also Why would Jesus say this if Hell is not Real?
Did Jesus Lie? Rick b
Enki,
Could you please explain to me what you believe the Christian version of hell to be? Then, please show where that version contradicts the biblical text. Then, please explain to me what the Mormon version of hell is, and support that version with the biblical text. Thank you.
Peace and Grace!
Enki,
There is a difference between mind control and what Jesus did (and consequently, what Bible-believers teach).
For one thing, Jesus didn’t get 10% of everybody’s money, forcibly (or no CK!). What He did, He did out of love.
Let me give you an illustration:
Suppose I tell my young children “Don’t run out in the road or you could get hit by a car AND DIE!”
Am I trying to get their money, their loyalty, their admiration?
No! I am trying to keep them from GETTING KILLED!
Or even getting hurt! I don’t want them to SUFFER!
Jesus, when speaking of hell, was doing the same thing for us.
Setfree,
We have no record of Jesus asking for tithing while on this earth, although he highly commended the widow giving her 2 mites. He also told the rich young man to sell all he owned and give it to the poor and follow Him in order to be saved – this shows we must be willing to sacrifice everything including money for God. In Acts 2, 4 and 5 we find that the early church (and thus God) REQUIRED that the members give all that they had to the church – the church would then redistribute it to the members on a ‘per needs’ basis. (This brings in an argument about organised religion and priesthood authority, which I will leave at the moment.) It was so much required that Annanias and his wife were killed by God because they lied about the amount they received and did not give it all to the church. And yes, they were killed for both the lie and with-holding, not just the lie (Acts 5:3-4)
Two things come of that – 1) we see that God does require our tithing (and it is forcibly here in the case of Annanias); 2) ‘Mind control’ by God because Annanias and his wife were killed because of what they did. What were the reactions of the church – Acts 5:11 “11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.”
I believe that Enki is saying that every church uses a form of ‘mind control’ or fear factor to keep members. And this can be seen in the past history of the Traditional Christian churches. And is possibly a factor in some or many today. I mean the main message of Christianity is – join, believe or go to hell for eternity. But this is all by man.
As you pointed out Jesus was/is different. He does not want to ‘control’ us out of fear, He is warning us because of love. But He was the only perfect person on this earth, including the perfect teacher. No one can measure up to His level of teaching through love, not fear.
Ralph,
There are some interesting thoughts in the above.
First, your interpretation of ACTS. I can see how looking from the perspective that you are (pending judgment conscience), you see God forcibly requiring everything from someone, and also using mind control. But from the perspective of one who knows the Love of God, his Patience, His Long-suffering, the verses read that the Jewish (yes, just Jewish, not the Gentile Church) were giving up all they had because they WANTED to.
Acts 2:42-47 “They (the Jewish followers) were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; and they {began} selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together WITH GLADNESS and sincerity of heart, PRAISING GOD and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.”
Did you see anybody feeling threatened into it?
Again, in Acts 4:32-35 “And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one {of them} claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all. For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales and lay them at the apostles’ feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.”
Do you see any forced giving in there? I just don’t see it. Looks pretty (happily) voluntary to me.
(continued)
In the Case of Annanias and his wife, you said God punished them for not bringing everything. Again, I can see how, if you are in a condemnation (to be judged) mindset, you might see it that way. But it’s not there. Look again.
Annanias and his wife conspired to “look good”, by selling their property and saying they were giving it all. Peter said, to put it in other words, it was yours to keep, or yours to sell and keep the money. Why then did you bring it and lie about it?
I doubt that you have ever learned to “rightly divide the Word”, Ralph. But both these Jews, and the young man who came claiming to have perfectly lived the commandments, were under the Law. If you want to live under the law, you can, and you will be judged by it, and found wanting. (Rom 3:19-20)
I really liked what you said about churches and Jesus. And I hope you can see that this is my point exactly. Have you noticed that not I, nor any Christian witness on here, has tried to convert you to “a church”? Why not? Because we believe in Jesus. We believe Him to be the WAY, the TRUTH, and THE LIFE.
I positively believe that many many churches have been set up by men who want to get gain (and this includes the LDS church and JS and followers). Jesus, on the other hand, does not require membership in any church but his own, and there is no one keeping a roll (list) of who we are but Him. He knows us all. Whoever it is that God has given Him, we’re His, regardless of whether or not we attend a local assembly at all.
So, I’d like to call out BZZT! where you said “join, believe or go to hell”. There is no need to join any organized religion.
And BZZt! to JS and his claiming that there is a “true church”. A lot of churches preach truth, but the absolute truth comes from the Bible, and having it (what the Bible is saying) constantly opened up (revealed) to you by God’s Holy Spirit.
John 1:1
Ralph,
I want an Honest explanation from you on how you say God Required Money at the Point of Death, when in fact this is what it said,
NO WHERE does it say God Required this as you have stated, Then Peter said,
I honestly dont expect an honest Answer from you, Still waiting For Shem who appears to have Lied, Gasp, A Mormon Lie? Shem who Claims to answer all ques
Shem Claims to answer all questions, His words not mine. He answers all questions he wants to while dodging the rest. I seem to recall waiting for a reply from Subgenius also, But then maybe the answer lies in the Name he choose. Rick b
Setfree,
You said “So, I’d like to call out BZZT! where you said “join, believe or go to hell”. There is no need to join any organized religion.” When I said the ‘join, believe or go to hell’ I never said anything about organised religion. In your perspective, if one is not a member of the Christian community, then they are going to hell. So it is join, believe or go to hell. That is join the Christian community, believe in Jesus or go to hell. And if one leaves the Christian community they too will go to hell.
RickB,
Wow, what a personal attack – “I honestly dont expect an honest Answer from you”. I have always tried to be honest on this site in answering questions. You may not like the answers and disagree with them, but that does not mean I am dishonest.
I get my idea about it being a requirement from 2 parts – Acts 5:3 “Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?“, and the fact that both Annanias and his wife died for lying to God AND keeping back part of the price of the land. I know there is nothing more explicit that states it was a requirement but look at the examples from teh OT where God continually destroyed those of the Israelites when they did someting opposite to His will. Its an honest answer whether you agree or not.
Ralph,
I know that in the temple, you covenant to give everything you have (including your own life if necessary) to the LDS Church. You may have been given this illustration of Annanias and his wife as “evidence” that that requirement/covenant is Biblical. But it is not. I hope that you at least consider the evidence we have presented, put together with the FACT that you are not living up to your covenant and have thus put yourself under Lucifer’s power in the temple, and see for yourself that Mormonism has got you in a bad way, in fact, the worst of ways.
Praying for you tonight…
After remembering that you HAVE TO give all to the church under the dire penalty, I can sympathize with you, and understand why this story about Annanias and his wife scares you. The real gospel is so non-scary, Ralph. It’s so liberating to be free of unrealistic expectations, of upcoming penalties, of someone finding out that you are not perfect. None of us are perfect. God knows who you are… that’s why He provided for you. He’s not going to send you to hell, or kill you (I guess you’ve already noticed) for not giving your all to the church. He’s very long-suffering, but you’ve had a lot of info now, and you really ought to be asking Him to save you…
Setfree,
I never said that I was scared. I was following on with Enki’s conversation about how any church, not just the LDS, uses forms of mind control over its members. It is what is perceived by outsiders – ask my athiest friend here at work and she’ll tell you that any religion brain-washes its members and uses mind control.
I agree that Heavenly Father and Jesus want us to join and follow by free will and will not force us to do anything. In saying that, they have given us ‘rules/boundaries’ in which to live. These have consequences for both keeping and rejecting them. If we keep them we will get to live with Heavenly Father for eternity – conversely if we reject them we will not live with Heavenly Father. It comes down to the old adage where you can choose what you want to do but you can’t choose the consequences.
The law of consecration is where we covenant to give of our time, possessions, etc to the building up of the Kingdom of God on this earth. At one point in time the LDS lived in a community where they tried to have all in common with no poor or rich. This worked for a while until greed and outside influences crept in, so they stopped it. These days because of the large influence of the ‘outside’ world (ie we are not an isolated community like the Amish) we live the law of consecration a different way – we pay our tithing, fast offerings and we (should) look out for our neighbours (including non-LDS). Whenever we are asked to do an assignment for the church we should not reject it. That is how we follow that covenant from the temple at this time. We (at least I do) look forward to when the law of consecration will be lived again in its fullness. I have no problems in giving what I have to help others, I do it because I have a faith in Jesus and a love for my neighbours. Not because I will go to hell if I don’t.
The above about Annanias and his wife is just my obversation/opinion, I don’t know what the church teaches as I never did institute.
Ralph,
Except for your atheist friend, who is the absolute authority on the subject ;), I’m sure you can agree that unless you’ve attended a church, you cannot positively say that it brain-washes its members and uses mind control. Thus, I’ll reiterate that the LDS church (I know because I was a member) does, and I’ll leave the proving that ALL other churches do to someone with more gas money.
I have to admit that I have wondered how any “temple Mormon” can make the covenants that they do in the temple, and then go about their daily lives thinking “all’s well”.
Do you realize how you side-stepped the “Law of Consecration”? Basically by this: “That is how we follow that covenant… at this time”. What you’ve just made me aware of is that you are expecting “protection from the herd”– since no one appears ABLE to live the covenant “in it’s fulness”, then no one really HAS to.
This, maybe you have realized already, is one of the key issues of Mormonism that keeps everyone just plugging away without having to really grab hold of Jesus’ lifeline. Mormons judge themselves compared to other Mormons, and thus never confront the reality of God’s absolute holiness, thereby finding it impossible not to prostrate themselves before His glory, proclaiming “I’m not worthy, I’m not worthy”.
Ralph, although you and every other TM has apparently “read it in” to the covenants that you only have to do as good as you can do (or as good as everyone else is doing), I don’t see where the “this is good enough for now” thinking is verified in the temple ceremony/covenants.
Nor is “as good as I can do” verified by scripture, even yours, as yours also says that God made it possible to keep every commandment.
If you’ve been telling yourself that you’re doing fine, you’re in denial. You know that right?
Ralph, here it is again. God knows we can’t live up to His standard. For your sake, admit that you’re a sinner and grab His lifeline…
Praying for you.
Ralph, Saying I do not expect an honest answer is not a personal Attack, It is merely the truth. Look back over the Lack of replys from LDS when asked time and again Point blank questions. Look at the times LDS claim We answer and are not afraid, but then do not. That is where I come up with that.
Then About Acts, It said the Property belonged to them, it was theirs to do with what they wanted. Their death was more a fact that they Lied to God and tried to make everyone think they were selling all and giving all when in fact they did not.
Then their are only a few examples of Death in the OT, In fact God is more Loving and forgiving than you care to think when it comes to OT examples, Their are far fewer God killed Jews examples than you would either know about or maybe even care to admit. Rick b
JackG,
You already know what version of hell you believe in. What version do you wish me to illuminate? The LDS version, the fundementalist version, Christian Science version, JW version, 7th day version? catholic version? Its all negative and fearful stuff, along with that stuff in revelations.
Myth of Hades, Tartarus, Erebus all pre-existed christianity in ancient greece. Myth of the underworld existed in other cultures as well. Greek mythology was a bit darker. The irish hell(underworld) was actually a pleasant place. Its entirely possible that these cultures also used their version of hell for mind control.
Enki,
Are you suggesting that Greek mythology predates the entire Bible?
Can I ask you again what your purpose is for coming on this blog? Are you hoping to share some happiness you have found with someone here? Do you have answers to your questions that have given you peace and joy and fulfillment in your life that you were missing before you found your “pearl of great price”?
Are you miserable? Have you been burned? You seem… like both of those things may be true. Wanna open up a little?
Enki,
I had intended to post a reply to your comments earlier. The conversation moved on, but you’ve brought up the opportunity again.
On Promises and Threats.
Its quite natural for someone to view religion as a system of promises and threats. It appears to be like any other system of behavioural modification, only, in the case of religion the promises and threats are extrapolated to the ultimate degree. What could exceed the promise of heaven or the threat of hell?
Most defenders of such a system point to the idea that the behavioural modifications are actually beneficial. For example, nobody wants to live in a society in which murder is tolerated, so the commandment “Do not murder” (Ex 20:13) is welcomed as an explicit statement of what is desired. There are exceptions, and you probably know as well as I that the promise of heaven and the threat of hell have led to a rationalization of murder, most obviously in the suicide bombers in the Middle East.
There is, I think, a realistic Biblical alternative and it starts with the question “whom do you serve?” (Josh 24:15). The problem with the system of promises and threats is that it is ultimately self-serving (if I do the right thing I go to heaven) and it is ultimately concerned with my interests.
Perhaps this is the great weakness of 21st Century North American Evangelicalism. We have appealed to people on the basis of preserving their best self-interests, but the appeal falls on deaf ears when the people say that their interests are best served without the need for our Church.
In contrast to this system of fostering self-preservation, the Bible has a habit of pulling us away from the dominance of self interest, most markedly in Matt 16:24. So, the apparent dilemma is “how do you command behavioural modifications whilst denying self interest”. The answer, I think, brings us to the “incarnational theology” that I’m attracted to. Put simply, we do good because that is how God works. ctd..
When we “do” love, God is incarnated in our actions because God is love. When we “do” evil, God is not there.
Why, then, does the Bible resound with the language of heaven and hell? Firstly, it is not about me, but about God. God is the ultimate judge, and heaven and hell are consistently portrayed in the Bible as the outcomes of His perfect judgement (Matt 25:29-31). If God sends someone to hell, you can be sure that that person deserved it (we could interject that we all deserve it, from the Biblical perspective). Secondly, the early Christians certainly believed in the resurrection and judgement and that heaven and hell were the ultimate outcomes of our behaviours in this life. What gets overlooked (perhaps not by Christians) is the role of Jesus as the ultimate judge in this process. He sits on the “final court of appeal”, and there is no authority higher than Him. The Good News is that He is well equipped for this task, having lived and suffered as one of us. He is “Emmanuel”, God with us (Matt 1:23), the “Word made Flesh” (John 1:14), who lived among us, unlike some alien who dropped by on a good day.
I find the topic of judgement so intriguing. I don’t wish to deny Jesus His role in dividing the sheep from the goats, but I often wonder whether God’s judgement is ultimately reflective in nature. In other words, He gives everyone what they seek (see Romans 1:24-25). The lesson is to be careful in what you want – you might actually get it. But the consequences might not be what you had expected. Remember that Jesus told us to seek first the Kingdom of God (Matt 6:33).
The next logical question is to ask “if I get what I seek, why should this lead ultimately to heaven or hell”. Put simply, the thing that you seek might not be the thing you were created for. The Christian answer is that we were created in God’s image to glorify Him, and He is the author of life and light.
ctd…
When we behave in a way that denies our fundamental raison d’etre (reason for being), we deny the light and life in which we function as intended. For example, human beings are social animals. When we behave anti-socially, we hurt ourselves and those around us. Its no coincidence that the Bible presents heaven as a place of joyful, social assembly, whilst hell is a place of private, isolated pain.
This is what I refer to as the theory of sin. The tragedy of sin, in my view, is that it is unnecessary for us to function as human beings. When we are doing something that is alien to us, we experience hell and we inflict hell on others. The trouble is that we do it habitually as if it were natural to us. We need a saviour to get us out of the prison we have created for ourselves.
Returning to the issue of whom we serve, note where the blessing and honour and praise of heaven is directed. It’s not to me. It’s not even for me, or about me. It’s to the Lamb who was slain (Rev 5).
I’m living my life as if I’m en route to this assembly. Its not because I can fill my belly with the finest cup-cakes and scoff at those who don’t make it. Its because I see the worthy-ness of the Lamb, and I feel inexorably drawn to praise Him forever.
I pray my journey will bring a foretaste of that experience to me and the people around me, whether they join me or not.
I’m getting in a bit late on this discussion but want to tell Paige how touching her testimony is. God will surely continue to use her — her words, her very body — to testify to the health, peace, and fullness of life that a new life in Christ can bring.
Latayne C Scott
http://www.latayne.com
Enki,
The biblical perspective on hell will do. You need to avoid eisegesis, however. Looking forward to what your study reveals.
Blessings…
Jackg,
“You need to avoid eisegesis, however.”
How will I ever read anything at “Mormon Coffee” then?