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124 Responses to Paige Richardson’s Testimony Out of Mormonism And Into the Arms of Jesus
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A good example of the Church growth principle and how it relates to Biblical/God’s truth can be found in Noah. He preached about God’s judgment and the coming flood for 120 years – a message he received directly from God. Let’s see, he had a Church of what, 9 people? Hmmm, I am sure there were a lot more people involved with the local pagan mega-temple. But when the rain started, judgment literally fell on those who were in rebellion against God. So if your Church growth is going gang-busters, is off a little, or whatever – it literally has no bearing on whether you are truly preaching and teaching the holy scriptures and bringing people into a right relationship with the risen Lord Jesus Christ who was crucified for our sins. If Noah had adjusted his message and said “get on board to the express cruise liner to your own divinity – God loves you and wants to exalt and glorify you” – I am sure he could have had 10s of thousands of followers. Who would have all drowned in the flood along with their false preacher.
Rick B,
What are YOU smoking?What does my eye color have to do with anything?
You stated “The Bible tells us The LAMB, “Jesus” Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
But after looking it up, it actually states the following: “All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.”
The passage refers to people worshiping ‘the beast’, not to the cross or jesus.
“Jesus was Slain before the foundation of the earth. Jesus was planning before the foundation to go to the cross. So the Cross was around before the earth. Rick b”
So, what are you saying that he was slain twice? Its an interesting conversation. I never realized that the torah was considered a curse.
“This fact means that the curse Jesus did carry on the cross was not his own, it was ours. And by willingly taking the curse of the Torah on our behalf, he redeems both Israelites and gentiles from the curse which befell us all because we did not manage to obey the Torah.”
(from Theology Network)
By extension isn’t the N.T. a curse as well? Even as a former believer I never understood any portion of the Bible as being a curse.
falcon- You know absolutely nothing about my knowledge of LDS doctrine. I am truly impressed that you do not become bored of posting the same talking points over and over- I have seen you say the same thing a million times over the last year. You don’t really seem to interact with responses or information that refutes your claims.
RickB- to answer your first question- I decided to post here because it is very clear that evangelical critics of the LDS church are completely blind to the weakness of their own standing. They have absolutely nothing to stand on whatsoever.
There is no authority in anything EVs are saying here- none. You are 2,000 years removed from anything authoritative. You worship Paul and the Bible. They prefer the words of Paul over those of Christ 99.9% of the time. You criticize what you perceive as LDS’ lack of academic inquiry into the Book of Mormon, yet I would argue that a much higher percentage of EVs have absolutely no idea how it is that we have the Bible and the process that result in its compilation. That includes EVs who post here. The EV view here is one closed in a box.
What you have is a book. Period. It is a holy and sacred book. But all you have is your interpretation of that book. And we have the same book and therefore at least as much authority as you.
The EV take, from what I have seen, is an open-ended take on church structure, authority, and orthodoxy. In other words, all of these things are very poorly defined- terms like “the mystical body of Christ,” or the “priesthood of believers” are a poor cover-up for the fact that you have nothing to stand on.
Yet EV critcs of LDS are models of pharisaical hair splitting and condemnation of others. They mince at minute details and love to exclude other people from Christ’s gospel on technicalities.
Continued….
Rick- you contradict yourself. You are in essence arguing that God does not answer prayers from people when they are asking if something is true. Could there be a more sincere or important desire or supplication? Yet you turn around and say God has told you in detail what to say to the LDS missionaries. And He told you the BOM is not true. Make up your mind.
Without any authority or foundation on which to stand, EV critics are left with only the opinions of man on which to base their religion. And that is absolutely true. It is no different than a courtroom full of stuffy attorneys bickering over the nuances of the law. Whoever is most gifted in the art of debate wins for the moment. That is your religion as it interfaces with LDS in this format.
Jack- The BOM actually does speak of the spirit world. It doesn’t outline the process of redemption of the dead, but it clearly describes the period between death and the resurrection. This is something that EV cannot explain- at least I have never heard a decent explanation from them. What of the people who died before Christ’s resurrection- thousands of years worth of souls who died before Christ. What of their existence between their death and their resurrection? Or do EVs here not believe in a universal resurrection? If you do, what is your explanation for this period of time?
Jim,
I’m sure what I have to say, you have heard before. But like me, there may be some reading this who haven’t been around long enough to have seen this particular argument.
It appears obvious and logical to me that what you are saying has a major flaw… that is, that you say that the Bible is old an corrupted and it has no authority, AND YET, when a Mormon wants to use a verse out of context, it suddenly has all the authority it needs. It’s just the verses the EV’s use that must be doubted.
An EV, on the other hand, sticks to a firm foundation of only the Bible. If what it says there is hard to decipher, then we have to take the entire Bible, yes, the Bible as a whole, into consideration before claiming that we understand the verse.
This is why, for example, it appears as though we prefer Paul to Jesus. Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles. He says a whole lot about the New Covenant. This does not mean we’re disregarding Jesus! The entire Bible is about Him, I’d say especially Paul’s letters! But taken as a whole, Jesus was finishing up the Old Covenant and spoke more to the Jews than He did to the Gentiles about the New Covenant. Therefore, even though His life was about the New Covenant, there are few verses written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John that we can quote as representative of the New Covenant as a whole.
Can you understand what I’m trying to put across? I’m not the best writer.
If you can’t find Jesus from cover to cover in the Bible, then you don’t understand what the Bible is about. Therein lies one of the big problems in the communication between an EV and a Mormon.
By the way, there is no “gospel” more exclusive than one that tells people that you must be keeping all your covenants (only one of which covenants is to keep all the commandments) or else Jesus will not be forgiving you.
(I am pretty sure that in short, this means you can be forgiven if you’re perfect, oh, and giving everything to the church, since that’s another covenant).
Check it out:
“When you have repented, and are baptized and confirmed… You make a covenant, or promise, with God to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, to follow Him, and to keep His commandments. In return, He promises to forgive your sins and let you return to live with Him, PROVIDED you keep your covenants”
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-commandments/baptism-and-confirmation
Olsen, Jim
Thank you very much for confirming for me what I said in one of my previous posts and that is that the LDS posters keep saying I’m wrong but they never provide an example for how I am wrong about what I wrote. I maxed out on the word length on three posts and all you can say is that I repeat myself. You my friend have zero credibility. You ramble endlessly on things that require that you merely give opinions and blue sky speculation but you are void of any real scholarship. You, my friend, are a perfect product of LDS indoctrination. All emotion and no substance. Do the work man! If you were a student of mine I’d kick you out of class until you got serious and came prepared.
I’m all out of posts for today, but I’ll be waiting here in anticipation that you will actually provide something besides feelings based rebuttals with no content.
Falcon,,
You asked about where have we LDS shown you that you are wrong – well we have tried on a number of occasions but either you do not understand what we are saying, or you decide that you know better and go on with making the same comments without changing them. Let’s look at the comment you made today abouot Jesus and His atonement. Read 2 Nephi 9. I will highlight a few verses here because of limited space.
v 5-8 explain the importance of the resurrection especially v 8 –
v8 “O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.”
v 23 – 24 “And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it.”
Since we believe that deeds/actions/works are a part of faith, then yes, we believe that we need to do something ‘towards’ our salvation – but WITHOUT FIRST faith in Jesus, all the good works/actions/deeds we do will amount to nothing
‘towards’ our salvation (Matt 25:31-40). It is through our faith in Jesus that we want to follow His will/commandments because we have been spiritually born of Him (Alma 5:14).
PS thanks for the kind words. I didn’t mean to give any personal info out but I didn’t want Okie to think I was mocking his predicament. Mine is that my wife has a mental illness and is very abusive to me and the children when she slips into a mood. I need to think of the children in this situation rather than myself and the love I have for my wife. Its difficult but I keep asking God for guidance and assistance, which He has given me in abundance.
Falcon,
I probably need to say a bit more about the Atonement. As you probably know we LDS teach that it had 2 parts that were very much equal in importance as seen from 2 Nephi 9. Two types of death came into the world when Adam and Eve ate the fruit – Physical death and Spiritual death. Jesus had to overcome both to allow us to get back to Heavenly Father. The Atonement, we believe, started in the Garden of Gethsemane. It was mainly here that Jesus Atoned for the sins of all people past, present and future and paid the price for us to God (Heavenly Father, not Himself). This part culminated on the cross when He felt left alone by Heavenly Father. We teach that the Father did withdraw His presence from Jesus because Jesus had to suffer Spiritual death just like we do in order to know how we feel to be able to succor us.
Then there is the physical death which Jesus overcame by the resurrection. Without this resurrection we would be left as spirits for eternity. As 2 Nephi 9:14 states, this means that we would become the Devil’s subjects and could not return to our Father’s presence. So this shows just how important the resurrection is.
So both the Resurrection and Jesus sufferring for our sins are equally important and are both very much a part of the atonement. It is not as you stated earlier.
Ralph,
The fact that you relegate the Cross to something secondary to Gethsemane is one of the host of reasons why Mormonism does not fall into the family of Christianity. The biblical apostles do not refer to the Garden of Gethsemane in their writings, but solely focus on the suffering Jesus went through on the Cross. Why are you ashamed of the Cross, Ralph? I suggest you read “The Radical Cross” by A.W. Tozer. Tozer does a good job of “scolding” Christians for taking the Cross too lightly in modern times.
Peace and Grace!
setfree:
Jesus will forgive me for every sin that I forsake before I die. He came to save me from my sins, not in my sins. That all we are saying.
here’s hopin you get em all forsaken then 🙂
Cluff,
Please clarify something for me: are you saying that we need to be sin-free before we are saved? Also, when you say, “Jesus will forgive me for every sin that I forsake before I die,” are you saying that there might be some sins that perhaps you did not forsake? If so, what will happen to you, based on what you believe, if you have not forsaken all of your sins? And, can you forsake your sins on your own power?
I just want to state that it seems you are looking at sin as a “thing” that can be removed. Is this a fair assessment of what you posted? I hope you see my questions as honest questions looking for answers so I can get a better grasp of what you actually believe. Looking forward to your response.
Peace and Grace!
Jim Said
Just how do you figure this to be true? I never said I worship Paul or the Bible, I clearly said I worship Jesus, I think this shows you either do not read what I write or you simply are lying.
Jim Also said
How do you figure I contradict myself? If your praying to a false god, then that god cannot answer you. Also I stated very clearly that according to LDS, At least they tell me this, If I take the Moroni Challenge and I do not feel your god is telling me the BoM is true, then somehow it is my fault.
I was not sincere or I am living in sin, or I somehow have un-pure motives. why is that?
Like the MM’s today told me, we need faith to know if these things are true, I agreed, But I also pointed out to them, their is a huge difference between Evidence plus faith, verses blind faith with out no evidence.
I gave two examples.
1. The Apostles and disciples did not simply follow Jesus because He said so, Jesus showed Evidence through Miracles, Raising people from the dead, Healing various people and other such works.
2. Many people blindly believe that it was OK to drink the Kool-aid, Guess what? THEY DIED. Many People believed that their was a space ship behind that Comet, Guess what? They Died, Many extreme Muslims believe that if they strap a bomb to their body and kill people they will have 72 virgins after death. All cases of Blind faith with out Evidence. Rick b
Rick B,
Thats interesting, but what about various miracles via non-christian religions? The LDS movement has also reported a number of miracles and various manifestations. Some LDS people report certain experiences that cause them to really believe, not always giving full details because of its sacred nature.
In one context, an LDS blogger stated an experience something akin to the BOM account of seeing the finger of god. Apparently LDS people believe its possible to have these experiences. Most christians really downplay these sorts of things. Not totally dismissing them, but maybe recognizing that ‘something happened’ but that it was either a delusion or a false spiritual manefestation.
Enki said
I guess you missed what I was saying, I was implying your eyes are brown. Get what I was saying yet?
Enki Said
Jesus was not Slain twice, The plan was laid out before the foundation of the earth, It was the Plan all along for Jesus to come to the earth and Die. I never said the Torah was/is a curse, you said that.
Read the OT, The Cross is their, The Passover Shows the Cross, The Blood on the Door and Sides. Then when Moses laid out the people in the different camps they were placed in very specific lay out, the lay out of the camps formed a CROSS, So when God was looking down from Heaven He saw the Cross. Then the Prophecy of Jesus being Crucified and His Garments being gambled for and His beard being ripped out.
This Prophecy is so detailed, Many Non-Believers teach it was written after the fact. So the cross is in the OT, Before “Christians” were called Christians.
Speaking of Curses, the Bible tells us All who die upon tree’s are Cursed. Yes Jesus was cursed for us, and the Bible tells us that all who try and live under the law are cursed. Mormons try and live the law, So I guess your cursed.
Rick b
JackG,
Maybe I was not clear enough in my last posts. Let me try and rephrase what I said.
Both Jesus suffering to pay the price for our sins and His death and resurrection were equally important to our salvation. Without one or the other we could not be saved.
Also I said that Jesus suffering to pay for our sins started in Gethsemane and finished on the cross when Heavenly Father left Him alone so He could feel what spiritual death was like so that He would know how to succor us better(something a Trinity-like god could not do). So the cross was the central part where it all came together, but it started in Gethsemane.
No where did I say that the cross was secondary.
Ralph,
You make the claim that you’ve shown where I’m wrong and I simply repeat the samt thing. Ralph your latest answer attests to the fact that you don’t address my points. So once again, I have to repeat them. There is no refutation of what I’ve said in your response. You simply take off, for the most part, in another direction. For example, I never referenced the resurrection so I don’t know where you are going with that and so your reference to 2 Nephi has me asking “What?”
You did reference the Garden of Gethsemane and by doing so you just made my point for me. Again, this idea that this is where the atonement “started” is pure Mormonism, it’s not supported by God’s Word, and it is a rejection of the cross as the place where the atonement took place. There’s a reason why Satan wants the completness of the work of atonement at the cross to be distorted. It was at the cross that Satan was defeated not in the Garden.
The sum total of what you have given us is pure Mormonism and doesn’t rfute anything I’ve written. You’ve determined to go down another trail.
The point is that Mormonism rejects the cross of Christ as both a symbol of the atonement and the place of the atonement. You’ve pointed that out yourself unwittingly by your answer.
Ralph, you’ve made a decision to reject the God of the Bible and His plan of salvation. You’ve determined to follow a false prophet with a false gospel. We’ve patiently walked you through God’s plan of salvation over and over again and you continue to reject it.
Paige, in her video testimony, talked about her journey in coming to Christ. You’d be wise to take to heart what she has offered here.
Olsen Jim wrote “I am truly impressed that you do not become bored of posting the same talking points over and over..There is no authority in anything EVs are saying here- none. You are 2,000 years removed from anything authoritative. You worship Paul and the Bible. They prefer the words of Paul over those of Christ 99.9% of the time.”
Since Jim wrote these very words (almost verbatim, if I recall correctly) on a separate thread a couple of weeks back, I’d say he just shot himself in the foot.
Anyhow, I’ll ask the same questions I asked back then;
Do you think Paul preached a different Gospel to Jesus?
Do you think the “true” Gospel (whatever it is) can’t be found in the Bible? Is that why you don’t trust it?
As far as authority is concerned, perhaps you can answer this. In Jesus’ parable of the Talents, on what authority did the good servants have to go and invest their master’s money? (Matt 25:14-30)
jackg:
Good questions, heres how I see it:
As an imperfect person, I sin every day. When God humbles me enough so I can recognize my sin, I may be able to forsake it entirely. In that case, for that sin I am covered- because Christ paid the price for sin.
From time to time, with Gods help, I can abandon all sin, perhaps even have no desire to sin. That is a blessing that God grants to the righteous, yes even to Mormons. Then I am covered for all sin. You see how it works?
Now, if I fail to abandon a sin, I eventually come to love that sin more than I love God. That sin is NOT covered. Even if I have accepted Christ, I have to pay the price for that sin myself. It could take a while, and could be painful- the pains of hell I would guess.
In case some other Mormon begins disagree that this is proper doctrine, let me give my source:
D&C 138:58
The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.
Who pays the penalty for sins abandoned after death? The dead themselves do, of course. That is because Christs atonement applies to sins abandoned in the flesh. That is why murder is so wrong- it takes aways a souls opportunity to repent. You get it now?
Falcon,
You said ”Mormonism holds to two different types of salvation. The first type of salvation is a kind of general salvation, universal in nature that all of mankind gets regardless of their life style or faith in Christ or lack of it. The second type of salvation has to do with becoming exalted as a god. This second type of “salvation” is dependent on “works” and has nothing to do with Christ or his death on the Cross.”
What I wrote refutes the second part of your comment. We do not believe in salvation by works without Jesus Christ. Reread what I wrote I said ”v 23 – 24 “And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it.”
Since we believe that deeds/actions/works are a part of faith, then yes, we believe that we need to do something ‘towards’ our salvation – but WITHOUT FIRST faith in Jesus, all the good works/actions/deeds we do will amount to nothing ‘towards’ our salvation (Matt 25:31-40). It is through our faith in Jesus that we want to follow His will/commandments because we have been spiritually born of Him (Alma 5:14).”
Do you see what I have said? Without faith in Jesus Christ our good works amount to nothing towards our salvation. It is through our faith in Jesus Christ that we want to follow His commands/path/way/life/whatever else you wish to put in here.
And what is wrong in saying that the atonement started in the Garden of Gethsemane (where He suffered greatly) and then finishing on the cross where He suffered both spiritual and physical death? The real fact is it finished a few days later outside the tomb when He was resurrected. The cross was the central point of the whole process.
Ralph,
I’ll answer your last point first. “what is wrong in saying that the atonement started in the Garden of Gethsemane?” It’s wrong Ralph because it’s not Biblical. It’s that simple. Jesus atoned for our sins on the cross, period. It’s where He died. His death atoned for our sins. These Mormon add-ons are scripturally inacurate and just more examples of why Mormonism is not Christianity.
To your first point, in Mormonism salvation is universal. Everyone gets saved at some level regardless of whether they have faith in Christ or if they were the worst pervert that ever lived. It’s an unconditional salvation-immortality. There is no hell in Mormonism. There is just outer darkness for apostate Mormons.
Mormons cannot become gods based on Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross. Mormons have to earn this level of salvation. It is not depended on what Jesus did, but what the Mormon does to earn it.
First of all, the whole concept of becoming a god is unBiblical as is the Mormon teaching regarding the nature of God. In fact the whole deal is bizarre and shows how totally out in left field Mormonism is. A born again Christian sees through this lie of Satan. Ralph you need to get yourself born again and delivered from this deception of the devil. It’s beyond me why you don’t get it while someone like Paige (in the video does).
The foundation of the atonement is based on these facts:
1. God is love and God is holy.
2. God’s Law expresses his nature or person.
3. We rebelled and deserve punishment.
4. Our rellion made us enemies of God.
5. Sin stands between God and man, and judgment is inevitable.
The Cross is the center of Christianity. Simply put, Christ died on the cross for our sins. Christ’s death was a vicarious (in the place of)suffering and death. Isaiah 53:5-6, Romans 5:8, II Corinthians 5:21, I Corinthians 15:3, Mark 10:45, John 10:11
When God sent Christ to die, it was actually God who died. Christ’s death was a satisfaction, and it removes the obstacles that stand between God and man. It satisfies the justice of God. The Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world. John 1:29. The blood of the passover lamb, Christ, causes death to pass by us. I Corinthians 5:7 Christ’s blood cleanses us. Hebrews 9:14 Christ is called a sacrifice and an offering. Ephesians 5:2. Christ purchased us. Galatians 3:13 Christ ransomed us. Matthew 20:28 Christ reconciled us. Romans 5:10 Reconciled means to straighten out the problem. Christ death on the cross satisfies the Law of God. The requirements of the Law that are satisfied through Christ’s death are simply, do not sin and be perfectly righteous; which none of us can keep. II Corinthians 5:21 and Philippians 3:9
Now, it is God’s will that any should perish, but some do. It is God’s will that allcome to repentance, but not all do (II Peter 3:9)
Some people do not accept Christ and are lost even though Christ died for them. God offers His free gift of salvation to everyone. He holds it out to us. We need to receive it by faith.
Falcon,
I shall repeat 2 Nephi 9:23-24 “having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.” When we refer to the Kingdom of God is the Celestial Kingdom. This verse clearly states that without perfect faith in Jesus Christ we cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom. One of our leaders has said that anything short of the Celestial Kingdom is damnation, not salvation. So you are wrong in your statement. Yes we believe that works/actions are a large part of our faith and that our faith will be judged on these, but regardless of what one does – even if they belong to the LDS church, are a stake president and go to the temple each month – without faith in Jesus they cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom.
Ralph,
See here’s where Mormonism suffers from a lack of a systematic theology. You say that “One of our leaders has said”….Ralph a lot of your leaders have said a lot of things that leads to a “count, doesn’t count” type of approach with no clear definite line of thinking. So anything short of the Celestial Kingdom is damnation. That statement does not reflect what the “anything short” is. That’s that leaders opinion that “anything short” is damnation. That’s probably because he shooting for the big enchalata, becoming a god. Anything short of becoming a god is damnation in his point of view. In the Mormon program, it might not be that bad. What if somebody isn’t interested in being a god? What if a woman marries some slacker who just isn’t working the program.
Ralph it’s all a joke from beginning to end. It’s not Biblical and it reflects Joseph Smith going totally off the tracks in Nauvoo, which incidentally led to his death. I think you better check out the Community of Christ or the Temple Lot Mormon group. They give a picture of Mormonism prior to Joseph Smith taking his “prophet” status to the next level; coming up with these truly off-the-wall doctrines and practices. They guy was off the bubble from the start, but when he got his momentum up, he really went haywire.
Christ death Ralph, made it possible for you to work your way into the Celestial Kingdom. You can’t get there on Christ’s sacrifice alone. That’s the bottom line. It really doesn’t matter anyway because the Celestial Kingdom doesn’t exist nor does man attaining godhood.
Ralph, I’m concerned about your soul and that you should find God and salvation through Jesus Christ. You know better Ralph.
Setfree,
I said nothing about the Bible being “corrupt or flawed.” Merely that the vast majority of Christians, including the non-LDS people here have no idea how it came to be. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of LDS critics who slam mormons for not having a more academic understanding the the BOM.
RickB- You worship the Bible because you see it as the ultimate authority on everything. You elevate it above God and His prophets. EV critics undermine the virtue of the Bible when they say things like “a person cannot know that the BOM is true,” or “there must be evidence to confirm revelation.” Do they not understand they are attacking the very means by which the revelations in the Bible were received? Apparently not.
As far as you not receiving an answer to your prayers regarding the BOM- don’t ask me- I can’t judge your heart. I know the promise is real and true. That is between you and God.
Evidence- did Christ not say that “an adulterous generation seeketh a sign?”
Martin: you asked “Do you think Paul preached a different Gospel to Jesus?”
No. But Paul, as a man, had a perspective of his own and a style of teaching. And those teachings were directed toward people with pagan backgrounds who needed certain things emphasized to overcome that background. Christ had a perfect perspective and perfect manner of teaching. I will side with His perspective and words over any others.
“Do you think the “true” Gospel (whatever it is) can’t be found in the Bible? Is that why you don’t trust it?”
I believe in the Bible as scripture- is it infallible? NO. It is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. I do trust the Bible, but I do not elevate it above God.
“On what authority did the good servants have to go and invest their master’s money?” What does this have to do with anything I have said? This parable is about sharing one’s testimony and the gifts which God has bestowed upon us. It has nothing to do with the Priesthood.
falcon- You clearly do not want Mormons to be Christians and will say anything to promote your talking points. Your gripe about Gethsemane vs. Golgotha is silly and shows little understanding the atonement. You said that “His death atoned for our sins…..Christ died on the cross for our sins.” Is this your understanding? That the death of His body was the act that atoned for the sins of mankind? If so, this drastically minimizes His great achievement, suffering, and greatness. Ever seen Mel Gibson’s movie The Passion? What was the scene in the garden about? Apparently there are others who view the atonement as involving the garden as we do. Although you do not see it, you are truly minimizing the atonement in your view.
Christ suffered for the sins of mankind in Gethsemane for roughly 3 hours. After being whipped, mocked, judged, and condemned, and after being nailed to the cross, he again suffered for sin on the cross for about 6 hours before “giving up the ghost.” There are other individuals that have been crucified. That was the “tip of the iceberg” in the case of Jesus. He endured infinitely more than could be inflicted upon Him by the lashings and crucifixion. And you accuse us of not understanding or appreciating the atonement?
Ralph,
Before I start, I want you to know that I know I can’t do the subject justice here. I’m only hoping to point you to the one who can help you.
Ralph, two questions: 1- if you were to leave your wife alone with her mental illness, who would take care of her? and 2- is she and/or are your children hoping for the split?
You asked earlier if a man would be forgiven, based on the Bible “gospel”, if he left his wife.
The answer is yes, a born-again believer is always forgiven. But that’s the short answer.
Speaking from my understanding of the Bible as a whole, God does not approve of divorce. Read Matthew 5:31-32, 19:7-8, or Mark 10:4-9, and then 1 Cor 7.
But there’s a lot more that needs to be said. I am facing the challenge of having you be able to understand what I’m saying when we are coming from two opposing views of God, ourselves, and sin. Nevertheless, God put it on my heart (in the middle of last night even) to try, so I am.
Ralph, I believe that God allows into our lives problems that we cannot conquer by ourselves so that we can find out that we need Him.
And when we put down our pretenses (for example, if we stop faking that we are anywhere close to righteous) and seek Him out, He forgives us and heals us. Right? Isn’t that what He did? Hebrews 13:8.
You cannot help your wife by your own efforts. And I’m sorry for putting this in here because it’s a difference in our beliefs, but you surely can not get the Melchezidek Priesthood to do it. That is a subject all it’s own, so I won’t do it further argument right here.
Only our awesome God, of whom Jesus is the physical representation, can truly heal her. Only He can help you. Because He alone understands everything about your entire situation, He is the best one to trust with it.
God doesn’t take all of the hardships out of our way, but through them, shows us His power, His love, His mercy.
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(continued)
Ralph,
Because God is good, He has given us instructions. These are not things that we must do to achieve some big honor for ourselves. Rather, they are wisdom from an omniscient God who loves us and wants to help us steer clear of danger.
When He says not to leave your wife, it’s not because He can’t forgive you through Jesus’ atonement if you do. It’s because any time you sin, you are bringing into your life the consequences of that sin. In the case of leaving your wife, some of the consequences might be that your children will learn to walk away from someone they love who needs help. Another might be that your children hold it against you that their mother was left by herself in her illness. Another might be that your children never learn that the best thing you can do is to TRUST JESUS with EVERY PROBLEM, because they won’t get the opportunity to see you do it, and get firsthand experience that JESUS CAN BE TRUSTED by the results Jesus accomplishes.
Let me state again, in case it got lost in the above, that God’s commandments are to benefit us.
God loves us. He knows us. He understands what we go through, and why.
He gives us instruction to help us. He forgives us because we fail. He doesn’t beat us because we fail, but rather let’s the consequences come so that next time, we’ll know to trust Him instead of ourselves.
Ralph, Jesus is the answer to your problems, all of them. But to find Him, you have to realize that you are a sinner, get on your knees, and ask Him to personally save you. (You also need to remember that Jesus is who He says He is, and not our older spirit brother.) You have to be willing to give up yourself and your self-efforts and self-praising and confess that He alone is God. What you’ll find through the rest of your life, beginning at that prayer, is an awesome experience, put together for you by an awesome God, who can work all things together for the good of those who love Him (Rom 8:28).
(one more continuation for Ralph)
The Christians that come on this site are hoping to expose you to a Jesus you’ve never met before. Not one who Lived and died, what else is there to know? But the Jesus who is personally involved in our lives, who we can count on no matter what to work in our lives the absolute best, and will accomplish it! (Phl 1:6)
Our biggest problem is OURSELVES. But we have a patient, long-suffering God who is willing to take us as we are and make a new creature out of us… willing and wanting to make a beautiful work out of the trash heap of our lives and our own efforts.
I didn’t write this because I think you are going to leave your wife. I wrote this because you made an honest admission about a problem that you cannot fix. I wrote this because a lot of us start there (with an impossible problem) trying to find God. I’m hoping, for your sake and that of your family’s, that you’ll bend your knee and confess Him, and let Him today become the God of your life.
In Him…
Jim Said
Jim, I recall Jesus Quoting the Bible, So does that mean Jesus Worships the Bible? Have you ever read these verses.
These verses speak about the word of God. Also you said many things are missing from the Bible. Why is it as of Right now NO LDS PROPHET/PRESIDENT has never corrected them?
Also You cannot speak for Shem, But you sure seem to be able to speak for your Church and seem to speak for me, so do you care to explain why LDS claim they can and Do answer questions, But then never do?
If you do not believe me, Go back to the start of this thread and Read SHEM SAYING he answers questions, Then read my Question to him that I asked on another Thread, Then notice how he seems to have Gone MIA Rick b
Rick B,
Real nice there, what a way to ‘earn points’. Its ok really, go about your business.
Falcon,
You said the following:
“Hell does not exist in Mormonism unless you’re an apostate Mormon and then you go to “outer darkness”. This latter point is a very good example of mind-control as practiced by cults of various types.
Now the fact that none of this is in the Bible …”
How very hypocritical. Christians have been using their concept of ‘hell’ as a form of mind control. There also is something in the Bible about some sin which is said to be unforgiven.
Matt. 12: 31-32 (Mark 3: 29; Luke 12: 10).
I don’t know if NON-LDS christians view this exactly the same, but something was said.
Ken, I’m not looking to earn points, I’m simply saying LDS are dishonest and Lie. Not to say I I’ve been 100 percent perfect all my life.
But I am not a PC person, If you guys claim you can or will answer questions then you better be aware I will hold you accountable to that, and will point out time and again when it appears LDS lied.
LDS harp on being Perfect and Doing Works and claiming the Moral highground, You guys claim to be better than others because you do not lie, cheat, or supposedly Attack others. But when you guys fail and do, do this, And I point it out, As usual you dodge the Question. I never saw you answer the Question.
If you really care about us coming to the truth as you teach, Maybe you could be part of the solution, Since your either part of the solution or your part of the problem.
I know since it has been stated before, even Christian’s tire of me calling LDS to account, But just because some Christians want to please you guys by going PC, I refuse. Either Be honest and do as you say, or be honest and admit your liars. Rick b
Enki said
I think you need to by the red letter edtion, all the Words of Jesus are in red so you cannot miss them, Jesus spoke more about Hell than He did about Heaven. So if Jesus spoke it and you claim to believe the Bible then we have a problem. Do you really read the Bible? Rick b
wow, so many evangelicals and so little Kool-Aid. Does anyone not see the obvious bias nature of this original post? how many mormon-to-evangelic-to-mormon stories and anecdotes are there? since when did anecdotal evidence become truth?
You, any of us, are incapable of correctly declaring salvation, but yet here we go.
glass houses and a handful of stones
Subgenius said
I suppose Just like JS passed it out, your here to do the same. Call it Kool aid or a false Gospel, Either way, Your false Gospel only leads to eternal death. Rick b
Rick B
“eternal death”? way to pass judgement…glad to see your faith allows such things.
Falcon,
Christ overcame physical and spiritual death. Spiritual death is being absent from the presence of Heavenly Father (in the LDS perspective not living in in the CK; in Ev perspective not getting into heaven). In the back of the ‘Preach My Gospel’ manual that the missionaries teach from it has a glossary and under salvation it says that salvation is eternal life, or living in the presence of Heavenly Father for the eternities. This means that salvation is only in the CK – which backs up the statement I referred to by the church leader. We also teach that the only way to gain the CK is through “perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel”. Who is the Holy One of Israel? Jesus Christ. It is as I have said, we can only gain the CK through faith in Jesus Christ. We do not work our way there as you are saying. All those who gain the Terrestrial and Tellestial Kingdoms are not in a state of salvation but damnation. Yes the conditions there are better than on this earth at this point in time but that is only because of 2 things – 1) There will be no physical pain, sufferring or illnesses like there is here; 2) Those who are in the Terrestrial kingdom will get to have Jesus administer to them. Apart from that, all living in those kingdoms will have a perfect knowledge of their sins and that they fell short of eternal life and that will be their torment for the eternities. It would be like when you kick yourself because something happened and you knew that you knew better but didn’t act that way only only much worse.
Setfree,
I have always gone to God for help and guidance in these circumstances and He has always given it to me. When the burden becomes too much something happens and it is relieved. I rely on Him quote often. So how can you say I don’t have Him in my life when He performs many miracles for me?
Well Ralph the plot thickens!
Salvation is only in the CK. That’s a word game Ralph, but it’s your program so you can call “salvation” anything you please.
“The only way to gain CK is through faith, we do not work our way….”; well that’s good; so now you can get off the little gerbal wheel of Mormonism. You don’t have to do anything. Just have faith in Jesus and you will go to the CK and become a god. Don’t go and play dress-up in the Mormon temple, drop paying the Mormon machine their 10%, turn down callings to spend more time doing things you really enjoy, skip church services a couple of times a month, have a cup of coffee and a beer now and then because your entrance into the CK is based purely on faith in Jesus. You don’t have to do anything to gain the CK and become a god.
I am so enlightened tonight. I thought it was faith plus something to get into the CK and be a god. It’s all by faith. Ralph cut loose tonight and have a Coke and watch a PG movie!
Ahh Falcon, Falcon, Falcon,
I hate the taste of Coke so I’d probably go more for the Hot Chocolate. And PG movie – are you kidding me? The only rating allowed to be watched is G rated or less. PG is too risque these days what with all that kissing and stuff they allow in it.
Well it looks as though you do understand what I am talking about, you just don’t want to admit it so we can’t tell you where and when you are wrong. But if you want me to spell it out for you – I…T. Is that good enough?
Cluff,
Thank you for answering, but I must admit that I am left confused by what you said. I am especially confused and bothered by this statement you made: “Even if I have accepted Christ, I have to pay the price for that sin myself.” Where do you get the idea that you can actually pay for your sins? If that were the case, why is there a need for Jesus Christ? A statement like this is why Mormonism is not considered a Christian faith. It is truly dangerous and bothersome.
Blessings!
Subgenius said
Sub, I guess you have two options here.
1. Answer my question.
Why Can Paul say in Gal 1:8-9 that if anyone preaches any other Gospel they will be Damned to hell.
Also Paul said If you do not love Jesus you will be Damned.
1Cr 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.
Plus if you read the Words of Jesus, He spoke more of Hell and Judgment than Heaven. Read the Book of Jude, He speaks of eternal damnation and the torment to come.
Read 2Thess 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Plus many other Verses. So why can these guys make these bold claims But I cannot. Please answer me, Other wise go with Choice two.
2. Dodge the Question, Change the Subject, Just speak more empty words that do not answer the question. I guess you have a choice. Rick b
Ralph, Ralph, Ralph,
I fed back to you what you gave me which was that you will become a god and enter the CK based on your faith in Jesus Christ. So you can now try to blow the whole deal off, but you are either entering and making it to godhood based on your faith in Christ as you said or you have to work your way in as you wrote before. You can’t have it both ways Ralph. I caught you buddy, as I have before and now you don’t know where to go with it.
Here’s the bottom line Ralph. There is no CK and no godhood. You’re stuck in a system that cannot provide for you anything but ultimate spiritual destruction. You’ve bought into a lie and now you’re stuck defending it, spinning it and backpedaling. Nice try Ralph but you contradicted your previous posts.
Spin away friend.
It’s been fun watching Ralph’s position “evolve” as we have been having this discussion. Suddenly he’s doing the Mormon “me to” line, giving way to the Christian postion that our reward as believers is to be in the presence of God and that being in the presence of God is based soley on our acceptance of Christ sacrifice. Is this typical Mormon or what?
The fact of the matter is that Mormonism, first of all rejects the teaching that the Son’s very point of death itself was an act of atonement. Secondly in Mormonism it’s all about becoming a god and that Christ’s sacrifice (divided between the Garden and the Cross not the Cross alone) made individual exaltation to godhood possible for those who, through self-effort, prove themselves worthy of that reward. So this whole Mormon spin about being in the presence of God based on faith in Christ is just an attempt to “sound” Christian.
Here is what Mormonism rejects:
Christ’s atoning sacrifice entirely on the cross (Ep;hesians 5:2) and his subsequent resurrection (John 20) provided the way whereby all of us were reconciled to God (Romans 5:10); 2 Corinthians 5:19). And for those who accept Him as their Savior and Lord, their faith is accounted to them as righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21). All one’s sins, along with the penalty for them, are washed away by His sacrifice (Isaiah 53:10; Jeremiah 31:34; Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24). Through Him we receive eternal life (dwelling eternally in God’s presence) as an uterly free gift, “not by works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-10)
Now we know it’s the Mormon game to try and obfuscate the truth of what they believe in order to sound like mainstream Christians. We have seen that demonstrated here. Mormons don’t know the God of the Bible, His Christ or His plan of salvation. That much is very clear.
Falcon,
I have not back-peddled nor have I contradicted my previous posts. I said in one of my previous posts that faith is belief and works – as it says in the Bible, faith without works is dead. I also said that our faith will be judged by our works. And again I said that our works come from our faith in Jesus and that no matter what we do in this life (and I gave an example) without that faith in Jesus our works will mean nothing towards our salvation. If we have true/pure faith in Jesus we will do whatever He wants us to do – which are our works through faith. What our disagreement here is what Jesus wants us to do.
So without faith in Jesus, no matter what one does they will not receive salvation – they may go to the Terrestrial or Tellestial Kingdom but they will not gain the Celestial Kingdom. With pure faith in Jesus we will be willing to do what He wants us to do. So we are not working our way to the CK without Jesus – it is through Jesus and our faith in Him that we do the works He has asked us to do. This totally contradicts what you keep saying about the LDS church and this is where you are wrong.
What He has asked us to do is slightly different between your faith and mine – unless you agree with Luther that one can commit thousands of murders and adulteries a day and still get into heaven just because they claim a belief in Jesus.
So main point on this is that faith and works cannot be separated as our faith is ultimately judged on our works as taught in the Bible and faith without works is dead. But with faith in Jesus no one is working their way to the CK if they follow His commands. And without faith in Jesus, no matter what one does they will not get into the CK
Yes, there is a major difference between what Mormons and Christians see as salvation and what the relationship is between faith and works. This is to be expected because Mormonism is not Christianity. So you can have your discussions regarding faith/works with another Mormon and it will have meaning since Mormons have accepted Joseph Smith’s creation. That claim of his to be restoring the original gospel is fraudulent. You know that also. You’ve had the information presented to you with solid references but you choose to belief a faux feeling as a test for truth. Major mistake. You also know who God is and He’s not a glorified man who became a god. There is no scriptural support for this blasphemy. You have had all of that information presented to you and you’ve been running away from it. You have no defense.
You finally hit the nail on the head when you said that in Mormonism faith means nothing to your salvation without your works. What you are working towards, your salvation, is becoming a god. The scriptures don’t support any notion of such a thing, you know that also.
In the Good News, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, a person recognizes their hopelessly lost condition and recognizes that God has provided a means by which the penalty for our sins are paid for by the death of His Son Jesus Christ on the cross. Having repented of our sins and received Jesus as our Savior through faith we become born again and the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us. Through the Spirit we experience the process of sanctification so that our behavior/works are transformed. The transformed life we lead is in gratitude for what God did for us through Jesus on the Cross. When we die we enter God’s presence based on what He did for us at the Cross.
The Luther reference you made is just a total red herring. We’ve been over this with the Mormons on this blog countless times and they just keep repeating the same thing when they know better. You know better Ralph. You’re just playing games.
Ralph,
Contributors associated with this blog have gone to great lengths with you to assure that you’ve been provided with accurate information regarding the nature of God and God’s plan of salvation. But instead of getting serious regarding these topics and showing respect for the interest that has been taken in your personal salvation, you total ignore the efforts and choose instead to tread water. God has seen fit to provide you with the information that will bring you to a saving knowledge of His grace and you ignore it.
That’s the difference Ralph between Paige, whose testimony is the subject of this thread, and you. She made an honest inquire and had a heart that was willing to receive what God had for her no matter what the cost. Your goal is to maintain the status quo because the cost of following Jesus the the Good News of His Gospel is too much for you. You indeed have “rich young ruler” syndrome. He walked away from Christ because he felt the price was too high to pay. That price was to surrender his wordly goods and postion for what God was offering Him in eternity. I would guess that it was not just his possessions but the status that those posessions brought him. In the case of Mormons the status is what is garnered down at the wards and also the lie they’ve bought regarding becoming gods themselves.