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I’m thinking of traveling to Manti and talking with some LDS people this weekend. However I have questions about witnessing at there.
Will there be a big turnout either this Friday or Saturday? Will many of you be there? What are the best times to plan on being there?
My biggest question… I’m reluctant to disturb my LDS friends, and I greatly wish to respect their right to assemble without harassment. I wonder how I would feel if the LDS came to a church function of mine in “protest”. How do you suggest that we respect the LDS property rights, and freedoms of assembly while still reaching out to them with love. If we offend them I believe we defeat the whole purpose of being there. Is there a place set aside for speaking to Mormons that they expect an honest discussion or is it a zoo where there is a lot of yelling and sign waving?
Thanks…
Wish I could have those 3 minutes back. Yeah, it didn’t take long.
JesusFreek,
There will most likely be a big turnout both nights, and a large crowd every night, including Wednesday and Thursday. From what I’ve heard, there will be more Christians there this weekend than last.
As far as being seen as a “protester”, I have personally met Mormon youth who have been warned that we are that in advance, regardless of what we do. Yet another “buckling down” that “the Church” seems to feel is necessary to protect “the truth”, along with fining Christians who dare use the restrooms, etc. There are only a couple of Christian witnesses who will talk to a large group (thus “yelling”, not the best word”, and a few who carry signs (as a way to be seen), but there are many others who just walk up and down the road on the west side of the temple and get into quiet discussions with whomever will. Does that help?
I notice that evangelists usually try to prove things wrong or right. So prove to be that there is a God.
Are you LDS, hansen?
You need a Mormons’ perspective?
I went to Manti a few years ago, and saw the protesters with their big signs.
My reaction is to avoid Manti in the future – I go for a faith building event, to teach my children church history. The opposition changes the nature of the event to one that could destory faith as much or more than build faith. I don’t want my children exposed to that kind of stuff (lies, in my view) until they have a solid foundation of their own.
The more protestors that show up, the fewer people will attend until the event is cancelled entirely.
Is that your objective? Destroy anything in public that builds faith? Some athiests take the same activist approach and it is deplorable.
Okay, I have been on vacation, and realize that souls are at stake, here. Cluff, you take your children to a pageant and feed them the fodder that separates them from the True God of Israel. The history of the Salt Lake LDS Church is so ashamedly horrid that your Salt Lake leaders try to change everything, especially the false doctrines that came out of the mouths of men you claim to be prophets. You get on this blog and try to bully and intimidate with white-washed facts and lack of theological thought, as you attempt to spread the lies of JS and his followers here on this blog site. Take a look at the FLDS, Cluff, and you will see what JS had in mind. Not too palatable is it? At least your leaders understand it’s not palatable, and are attempting to appear like mainstream Christianity. Then, you come with this ridiculous line: “Destroy anything in public that builds faith?” Now, if you were a Christian, you would understand that the faith built by Mormonism does not lead to eternal life. You are operating on faulty presuppositions, Cluff, but are too blind to see it. Open your eyes, Cluff. Learn the Truth about Jesus Christ and His saving grace, as well as the authority of the Bible. You would do well to teach that to your children, Cluff.
Praying for you…
Hansen wrote “So prove to [me] that there is a God.”
You are there, so God must be there.
OK, that’s a really, really, really shortened version of St Anselm’s ontological argument. Roughly, this states that everything must have come from something, so if you follow the line back, you’ll get to the one “thing” that didn’t come from anywhere, and that “thing” is God.
LDS “doctrine” tries to buck this by saying that God did come from somewhere (God had an eternal father, etc), which, IMO, legitimizes the arguments of the atheists.
However, you might come from the angle that you can’t prove God. The Biblical view, IMO, presents a God who is present in everything. The problem this presents is that you cannot measure “A”, which has God in it, then “B” which does not, and say that the difference is God.
LDS “doctrine”, again, bucks this by saying that God cannot be everywhere at the same time. Yet more ammunition for the atheists.
Rabbi Abraham Heschel gave an intriguing perspective in 1966, saying “There are no final proofs for the existence of God, there are only witnesses.”
What do you think?
Great thoughts! Thank you! I just think that we as people may be to hypocritical at times. We tell people they can’t be right, because we have some facts that prove them wrong. Yet we have our own believes that are not facts. However are believes are facts to us. They are right. Can something be totally proven false though? Just as you can’t say that Big Foot or the Loch ness monster don’t exist. One cannot prove that.
Hansen,
Can you, or has anyone ever been able to, prove that God doesn’t exist? I suggest that to believe in God or not believe in Him is not a matter of hypocrasy, since neither can be done.
There is, however, a difference between not being able to prove that something is true, and being able to prove that something is NOT true. For instance, after I’ve studied the nature of a squirrel, I may not be able to prove WHY he does the things he does, but I should be able to state with all certainty that he IS NOT an elephant.
jackg:
I get a rant? Wow I scored big. Thanks for repeating each of the lies I hope my children won’t hear (yet).
I can illustrate:
1. feed them the fodder that separates them from the True God of Israel.
I will feed them the witness of the Holy Ghost- if I can find an environment that lends itself to that kind of event. Those that recognize that spirit are the children of Israel, as Brigham Young would always say. I find that statement to me quite true, and I find no sign of any witness from that source in your rant – only anger and hatred. That is not consistent with any kind of prayer in my book. The proper motivation for prayer is love, not hate.
2. The history of the Salt Lake LDS Church is so ashamedly horrid that your Salt Lake leaders try to change everything
I will agree that two different versions of history have emerged over time, yours and mine apparently. You say chruch leaders lie, I say your sources lie. Only God knows for sure. Here’s what I know. The devil is the source of all lies and he will work overtime if/when a true prophet is sent from God.
Like Paul said:
1 Cor 2:1-5
..your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God
Why? Becasue the wisdom of men is more vulnerable to evil manipulation than the power of God. The witness of the Holy Ghost (that I have) is far more reliable. A solid foundation.
3. Take a look at the FLDS, Cluff, and you will see what JS had in mind. Not too palatable is it?
That would have been GOD who had that in mind- with a biblical track record for those kind of activities (righteous posterity, not sex) in Abraham and Israel. Ironic that you use the same name to refer to yourself, is it not? How many wives did Israel have, Hmmmmmmmmm?
When I look at the FLDS, I see JS loyalists who failed to move on to follow God’s commandment for TODAY. Not unlike you, yourself, from my perspective. Yes, all 4 of my grandparents were children in polygamist families, so you will get very little traction with that red herring. Nice try, I guess I can allow a little rambling in a rant.
4. Then, you come with this ridiculous line: “Destroy anything in public that builds faith?”
Not so ridiculous for a Mormon, consider this:
Alma 32:28
Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.
29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.
Let me put it in context for you:
Now, we will compare the word unto Manti. Now, if ye give place, that the message of Manti may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true message, if ye do not cast it out due to the unbelief of mass demonstrators to force ye to resist the Spirit of the Lord..
You get my point?
5. Now, if you were a Christian, you would understand that the faith built by Mormonism does not lead to eternal life.
Now, if you were Mormon you would understand that true faith from any source will always lead to eternal life.
Even aunt eye Mormons at Mormon Coffee will have a chance. You know, you die, you meet Joseph Smith personally, you ask him your questions, you feel very ashamed.. etc.
Faith that leads to repentance will ALWAYS lead to eternal life. Any religion can lead people to repentance, to goodness, and to eternal life.
We can accept Christ (and Mormonism) in the next life, and, if truth be known, every person born on the earth already accepted him in the pre-earth life. The mission of most mainstream Christian churches is moot- not really needed. That is why the devil lets it go on unobstructed.
The message he has? Sin all you want. (If you accept Christ it will all go away.) The opposite of true faith. Is that what you propose leads to eternal life?
GRCluff wrote “every person born on the earth already accepted him in the pre-earth life”.
Gosh, I wish I could remember. Obviously this important event did nothing to enlighten my understanding in this life (Alma 32:28, apparantly).
Furthermore, if I had accepted him in my premortal existance, then I don’t need worry about how to live this life – I should not have wasted my time on agonising over my own sin and repenting of it. Yet LDS accuse Christians of promoting a false religion that gives us a license to sin!
GRCluff, do you really think I have Christ now?
The thing is, if I have Christ now, I have full and complete access to God (John 14:6, Heb 4:16) and I’ve never been initiated into the LDS religion. What does that say about your missionaries’ efforts? Not really needed?
I don’t exactly know how the LDS movement came up with this crazy stuff (though I’ve got some pretty robust theories based on the movement’s history) but what it is not is what was written by the earliest Christians in the Bible. Are LDS sure that they’re “restoring” the church the early Christians founded? I don’t see any connection.
Martin:
Maybe the Bible can connect some of the dots for you:
Job 38:4-7
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
7 …and all the sons of God shouted for joy.
Who where the sons of God who shouted for joy when the world was created?
Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee…
Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
God promised us eternal life WHEN?
Eccl 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
How can your spirit return to a place it has never been?
2 Tim 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began
One verse that can be interpreted to mean we existed before can be explained away, but five?
I think we have stumbled on to something that the ancient Church took for granted. A plain and simple truth that they lost?
GRCluff.
I would so love to use the LDS cop-out and reply with “I don’t believe any of these verses because they were changed by the Catholics”, but you know I can’t. I’m at a distinct disadvantage because when I say “I believe the Bible to the Word of God'”, I mean it.
Though it makes me laugh to see LDS to try to prove a point using scripture that they don’t trust, I’ll respond to your points directly anyway.
“Job 38:4-7
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
7 …and all the sons of God shouted for joy.
Who where the sons of God who shouted for joy when the world was created?”
Not me, at least as far as I remember. If you suggest that I had a mind-wipe on my descent to earth, I’ll need to ask if you’re getting your theology from the Bible or from Star Trek.
“Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee…
Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
God promised us eternal life WHEN?”
…refers to God’s timelessness, not ours. Did you notice how the verses refer to what God does, not what we do?
“Eccl 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
How can your spirit return to a place it has never been?”
My spirit came from God, so that’s where it returns. God is the giver of life. Did you notice that it comes from God, so it can’t have been around before God? This also excludes the notion that my spirit is a contemporary of God, or that God and my Spirit were created at the same time.
“2 Tim 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began
One verse that can be interpreted to mean we existed before can be explained away, but five?”
Again, God purposed His plan before the creation of the cosmos and before the creation of me. Ctd.
…on 1 Tim 1:9, did you notice what gives the impulse to God’s calling? As I read it, it refers to God’s “own purpose and grace”, which doesn’t fit neatly into your works-based justification theology.
And, if you persist on the “given to us in Christ Jesus” thing, I’ll have to respond by saying that, as fully and wholly God, God the Son is as timeless and eternal as God the Father (and God the Holy Ghost, for that matter).
Next question is “Can God give us something before we are created?” Yes, because our calling is entirely contingent on the merits of Christ alone. So, to put it in modern parlance, everything we need for our calling is already there in the eternal and timeless Christ – it always has been and it always will be. We will never, never get to the point where we can rest on our own merits and declare a devoluted self-sufficiency on our continuing existence. There is only One who is entirely self-sufficient, and that is God alone. I think you really need to meet Him.
Now, I’ve done my part. Its your turn now. Answer me directly – do you think that I already have Christ? You’ve already stated that “every person born on the earth already accepted him in the pre-earth life”. Presumably, this includes me, Hitler, the Pope and anyone else you care to mention.
Please, the floor is yours, let us know what you mean.
GRCluff,
How do you know if your “Holy Ghost” is from God? Joseph Smith, when asked why his prophecy didn’t come true, said that some of his revelations come from god, some from Satan, and some from the flesh. Personally, I don’t want to follow any prophet who can’t tell the difference between his sources.
And as much as the ex-Mormon claim that temple Mormons are calling up Lucifer in the temple keeps getting ignored, the fact is that if you are doing that, than you can put money on the fact that your “Holy Ghost” is demonic.
setfree:
What about the ex-mormons claim that Lucifer is cast out of the temple? What? They don’t make that claim? — That is why they are ex-mormons.
My Holy Ghost demonic? lol. How can that much love, kindness and illumination come from an evil source? Well … it can’t. Sorry.
My question would be – Why does that same Holy Ghost open my mind and enlighten my spirit when I study the Bible? Does the Bible speak about another spirit entirely that it can’t bring to my heart when I read? I don’t think so.
For anyone investigating the Mormon Church, what Cluff says here is indicative of whom they believe to be the one to whom we will answer: “Even aunt eye Mormons at Mormon Coffee will have a chance. You know, you die, you meet Joseph Smith personally, you ask him your questions, you feel very ashamed.. etc.”
Now, what’s actually going to happen is that Mormons will meet Jesus face to face and learn that JS was a false prophet, and that they should have put their trust in Him. Oh, Cluff, how lost you are. I pray for you and your family to be freed from the lies and bondage of Mormonism. You deserve more pity than anything else.
Peace and Grace
GRCluff,
I’m still waiting on your answer. You’ve already stated that “every person born on the earth already accepted [Jesus] in the pre-earth life”.
Do you think I have Jesus?
Surely the Holy Ghost in you can give you the answer? I mean, that’s His job isn’t it?
Martin:
Yes, you have Jesus. We all have Jesus. Every person born on the earth accepted Christ’s plan in the pre-existance. (We all accepted Christ) Those that didn’t, chose Satan’s plan and were cast out with him. They don’t get a physical body.
Abr 3:
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
You prefer it from the Bible? Can do, here goes:
The Bible uses the terms “firstborn” (Rom 8:29) and “only begotten” (John 1:18) to refer to Jesus.
The two terms are contradictory on the surface, but Mormons believe that the first refers to Christ’s spiritual birth, while the second refers to his body.
I understand the context that mainstream Christians will place on “firstborn”. He was the first one to be resurrected from the dead
I will insist that there is sufficient Biblical evidence to extend the limited view that mainstream Christians hold on the identity of Christ and Satan.
Luke 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
They were both obviously in heaven at one point.
Rev 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Once again, evidence that Satan was in heaven at one point.
Mark 5:6
But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
Are these “unclean spirits” not the same angels that were cast out of heaven with Satan. How is it that they recognized Jesus on the earth?
My contention is that angels and spirits, at least at the time the world was created are one in the same. The widely held belief that angels are a unique type of created being is not Biblical AND false doctrine.
You don’t like the word estate in that context?
The Bible does:
Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
We were spirits in heaven before coming to earth
Jer 1:5 5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee…
He knew Jeremiah personally, not planned to create him.
Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Why use the word promised? Why not planned? To whom did he promise eternal life?
Eccl 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
How can your spirit return to a place it has never been? Could a spirit return to a plan that God has made?
2 Tim 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
When was this holy calling made? Can a holy calling be made to a person who does not yet exist?
Isa 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
GRCluff,
1 Colossians 1:18 “And he (Jesus) is the head of the body, the church: who (Jesus) is the beginning, the FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.”
To suggest that Rom 8:29 is not talking about Jesus being the firstborn from the dead is taking a verse out of context, and forcing in WHAT IS NOT THERE.
The verses are talking about “God’s elect” who are called to be “conformed to the image of his Son”. By your interpretation (that firstborn means his spirit birth and all on earth have Jesus), this means everyone on earth. But reading on into Chapter 9, it’s clear that not everyone is in the “elect” group. Plus, if you go by the “Christian” (Bible-based) interpretation of firstborn from the dead, “firstborn” and “only begotten” are no longer “two terms [which] are contradictory on the surface”.
The Bible is MUCH easier to read if you (speaking to any/everyone reading this) don’t try to fit Mormon doctrine into it. If you just read what’s there, pretty soon you’ll actually understand the main message.
A terrific place to start is in Romans, where it compares trying to work for salvation to God’s free gift of it. Or Hebrews, where it shows that temples made by man’s hands and the Aaronic Priests are all unnecessary now because our ONE HIGH PRIEST, who never has to sacrifice again, has come and done the work that the old priests were only doing to point to Christ, and NOW HE’S FINISHED! Awesome stuff. Just read it how it reads, and don’t stuff in what isn’t there.
Hallelujah! Praise the name of Jesus! Our God is AWESOME!
P.S.
“My Holy Ghost demonic? lol. How can that much love, kindness and illumination come from an evil source? Well … it can’t. Sorry.”
2Cr 11:14 … And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Satan is the great pretender, always trying to look like a god. It’s interesting too, that the same thing he lied about to Eve is what your church teaches today.. 1. did God really say that? (you discount His Bible whenever it suits you) and 2. you can be gods (like god, same diff)
The “contention” that angels and spirits of the dead/yet-to-be-born are the same is not biblical by the way. I’m listening if you can find where it says they are the same.
Cluff said “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Why use the word promised? Why not planned? To whom did he promise eternal life?”
Cluff.. my wife could not even be pregnant and i can PROMISE before she is even pregnant with our child that I will take them to disneyland when they are 3..
Your graspin’ straws buddy.. Do you notice that it doesn’t say He promised to US in HEAVEN before the world began (was created)? It just said this is a promise he will make sure happens once the world is created. Even if the Bible said he “promised to us” it could still easily mean what I mentioned before.. I can say that I promise to my children that I will be the best dad in the world and still not have any kids at that time.
Why promise and not planned? Perhaps because people trust and believe more in a promise than just a plan.. You would much more prefer someone to promise to pay you back in a week instead of “hey, I plan to pay you back in week” – not much conviction in the word plan if ya ask me..
GRCkuff said “Martin: Yes, you have Jesus.”
Yippee!
Now, according to Eph 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:”, which means I’ve got everything I need in the Jesus Christ that I have already accepted. It did say “all” and “Christ” didn’t it?
Its OK folks, we can all go home – there’s no need for us to join the LDS church. The efforts of the LDS missionaries is “not really necessary”, as Cluff would say (maybe someone should tell them).
Oh, and there are a few anti-Christian tyrants who have accepted Christ too, but don’t worry, it’ll be heaven, so we’ll all be happy. Even the folks who “despised and rejected him” (Isaiah 53:3) actually accepted him. Yeah, we know that crucifying Him might not look much like how you would behave to a friend, but maybe that was their way of giving Him a big hug. Lets all have cup-cakes to celebrate!
Seriously Cluff, when I read your talk about accepting a Jesus in the pre-mortal existence, I really wonder if we’re talking about the same Jesus, or the same Gospel….But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. (2 Cor 11:3-4).
Martin:
Well, its a great Holy Spirit. So much so that I just can’t believe there is a better one out there. You would think in 49 years of living God might have given me some kind of an indication that mine was not the right one.
I guess I am just blinded by the lies that Joseph Smith told, and by the ongoing lies of his followers for 170 years. Blind as a bat am I.
Either that or mainstream Christianity is still preaching the corrupted gospel of the 3rd century, and the devil has run away with the Christian church for 2000 years. Which one seems most likely to you?
Wrong again– unlikely wins.
Setfree,
Satan did not lie to Eve when he told her that she would become like God. If you read Genesis 3:22 “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”
Waht did Satan say to Eve? Genesis3:4 “And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.“
He promised Eve that she would become as God knowing good and evil. God agreed that Adam and Eve had become like Him knowing good and evil. So where is the lie in what Satan said here? How did Satan lie to Eve when he told her that she would become like God?
The only lie Satan told Eve that she would not die. We know that Adam and Eve suffered both physical and spiritual death after partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
And you complain that we LDS do not know our Bible properly. This is in plain sight.
GRCluff,
I understand your hyperbole, and I know you’re giving as good as you’re getting, but, seriously, can you understand my problem?
You’re saying that I already have Jesus (so has everyone else). Why, then, do I need to convert? Why all the effort that goes into the missionary thing? Why all the effort that goes into qualifying for the Temple ceremonies? If all of us have already got Jesus, these efforts seem like a monumental waste of time.
Is there something I need that’s not found in Jesus?
P.S to Ralph’s comments on Satan’s lies.
Its an intriguing query, and I’d agree that Ralph is onto something.
When you read Satan’s various statements in the Bible (say in Job 1:9-11, or Matt 4:1-11), they hardly contain anything that’s technically untrue. Here’s the problem; if Satan tells the truth, how come he is the “father of lies” (John 8:44) and the “accuser of the saints” (Rev 12:10).
Incidentally, the Hebrew word “Satan” means, literally, “accuser” and, I believe, its earliest use includes the Hebrew definite article, as in “hasatan”. In other words, it starts out as a title, and then gets used as a name, rather like “Christ”.
So, where is the lie in Satan’s “truth”? Fundamentally, I think the lie is in the idea that we can operate independently from God. In the Garden, God is not concerned that we can become like Him in a relational sense, because He has already made us in His image. What Satan suggests is that Adam and Eve can unseat God from His position as the ultimate arbiter of what is good and what is evil. Its the “I know better than God” mentality.
Returning to that scene in Rev 12, what I see is this; Satan accusing humanity by telling the truth, which is that we have sinned. Now, we have no defense against the truth before God, and we cannot deny that we have sinned. So how can we overcome? By the “blood of the lamb” (Rev 12:11). Our only defense is Jesus’ atonement. And, if this is good enough for God, who are we to argue? Do we know better than Him?
Everything we need to hurl Satan down is in Jesus. Everything we need to enter the highest heaven and approach the throne with boldness in in Jesus. Everything we need to qualify as members of the Kingdom is in Jesus. Everything we need in this life is in Jesus. There is nothing that we need that is not in Jesus.
Back to the original article, God is God and King over every kingdom be it Celestial, Terrestrial or Tellestial. Even though He does not go anywhere outside of the Celestial Kingdom doesn’t mean that His authority ends there, nor does His influence. as taught in the D&C, Jesus will visit those in the Terrestrial Kingdom and the Holy Ghost will visit those in the Tellestial Kingdom. This is how Heavenly Father will keep ‘control’ of things (can’t think of a better word right now). Those who remain in outer darkness have been handed over to the subjugation of the Devil. But even then, I believe that God still holds ultimate power over that area, otherwise how can He win the struggle between good and evil?
The ‘many mansions’ reference, from what I have been taught, refers to our final reward. Those who have lived a more faithful life on this earth will gain a grater reward in Heaven than those who were less faithful. Two people may end up in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom, but their rewards will not be the same. What these rewards are I do not know and I don’t know if anyone does.
But the verses in John 14 make sense either way they are interpreted in the LDS system. This is a quote from the Institute manual about these verses – ““My text is on the resurrection of the dead, which you will find in the 14th chapter of John—‘In my Father’s house are many mansions.’ It should be—‘In my Father’s kingdom are many kingdoms,’ in order that ye may be heirs of God and joint-heirs with me… “There are mansions for those who obey a celestial law, and there are other mansions for those who come short of the law, every man in his own order.” (Smith, Teachings, p. 366.)” This discusses both interpretations – ie about the CK only and about all kingdoms at once.
Martin:
Your answer is in the scripture verse I started with:
Abr 3:25
And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
This is the purpose of life, and the reason we do missonary work. It is also the reason you should join the LDS church.
I goes like this.
1. Everyone has a conscience. It shows you the difference between right and wrong.
2. If you follow that light, you can avoid sin.
3. Those who avoid sin will choose to seek God.
4. Those who seek God will seek the witness of the Holy Ghost.
5. The witness of the Holy Ghost follows a predictable path.
1. God lives and He answers prayers.
2. Jesus is the Christ and he paid the price for my sins.
3. The kingdom of God has been restored to the earth. (So I should join up and serve him)
4. There is a mouthpiece of God on the earth today.
If you fail to follow the direction of the Holy Ghost at any step, you fail the test of life.
If you fail to get an adequate opportunity at any point, you still have the next life, before the resurrection, to fix it.
Ahh wait, I missed something important:
Step 3 should read:
Those who repent and try to avoid sin will choose to seek God.
A small difference, but an important one.
It seems that our Mormon friends are intent on arguing from faulty presuppositions. They introduce scripture passages into the argument that are not agreed-upon as the authoritative Word of God. They also try to force their faulty presupposition onto us regarding the so-called apostasy, which requires one to believe that God CANNOT preserve His Word or His Church, which leads us to conclude that we must believe in a God who is NOT omnipotent. Then, they argue about a “mouthpiece” on the earth today as a human being whom they believe to be a prophet, which shows their lack of understanding regarding the Bible, especially the book of Hebrews regarding this topic. Then, they try to make us feel as if we are not following the Holy Spirit because we reject a false prophet, whose words and actions have been tested against God’s authoritative Word and found to be heretical, and which has been testified to us by the Holy Spirit. You see, Mormons want us to believe that the Holy Spirit will bear witness to teachings that go against the very work (Bible) He inspired. Then, they end with the charge that Christians don’t believe in repentance and obedience because we believe we are justified by our faith and saved by grace. They only show that they don’t understand the concept of sin, and see it as a “thing” instead of relational. Another error in their thinking is that the world is in the condition God intended, which totally ignores the biblical teaching that the world is in a fallen condition because of the Fall. Everything they teach CONTRADICTS the established Word of God. I praise God that He saved me from the folly of Mormonism.
Peace…
Ralph, GRCluff,
2Cr 11:3
“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”
That’s pretty much Mormonism in a nutshell — corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
GRCluff,
Thanks for your response. Though some of the words you use might appear Christian, its my impression that you’re speaking from a Gnostic point of view. Your speculations about pre-mortal lives, the progression of God (different thread), treating life as if it were a test and the emphasis on getting a “special” knowledge (which is only available to the initiates) resonates with Gnosticism. However, your language does not resonate with the language of the Kingdom that is so prominent in the Bible. For example, it makes no sense to say we can accept the King (in a pre-mortal life, or whatever), but we can’t enjoy the benefits of His Kingdom.
Do you think you have some kind of “deep knowledge”? You should check out what Christ has to say about this kind of stuff, for example Rev 2:24.
In any case, I’m still not satisfied with your response about the mission. I already have Christ – what more do I need? Perhaps you think that having Christ and living under His righteous Lordship are two separate things?
Maybe I’m not righteous because I’m not LDS. Ironically, this mentality really is a true restoration of an NT religion – its what the Pharisees thought of the gentiles. To them Jesus says “you must be born again” (John 3). Jesus says, in effect, though you thought you were “in”, you’re actually an alien because your reliance is in your own paternity, knowledge and achievements. Nicodemus, a religious, observant Jew, had yet to make the journey of faith that Ruth, born in Moab (not exactly friendly to YHWH and His people), had made. She had been “born again” into the true Israel, and so inherits the Kingdom. He hadn’t.
As far as joining the LDS movement is concerned, I won’t even contemplate doing “all things whatsoever the [prophet] shall command them” until the LDS movement takes the lead and actually does what its prophets command. But, then we’ll be back with Joseph Smith style Mormonism and all the evils that come with it (did someone mention polygamy)
OK, time for me to make my cross-cultural communication point here regarding Mormonism and Christianity: What our Mormons friends say makes perfect logical sense inside of Mormonism, but not inside of Christianity. What they say is 180 degrees out of phase with Christianity. Their problem is that they’re stuck with incomplete information so they just keep going around in circles repeating their mottos and slogans about grace, repentance, redemption and salvation without really making any attempt to understand what these things mean inside of Christianity. The tactical point for them is to put Christians on the defensive by making absurd claims regarding Christians think they have a license to sin on and on and on. It gets BORING!
As Christians, we can’t expect them to understand anything about the basics of the faith because they are not born again. The things we talk about are spiritually aprised and the Mormons are thinking in the flesh without benefit of the Holy Spirit. Mormons follow a different spirit. It’s the spirit of Mormonism so while being led by that spirit, they will not “get” Christianity. The devil has been pretty clever with these folks getting them to believe that there was a “great apostasy” and a need for a restoration of the Gospel. Funny thing is, absent the “burning in their bosom” and grabing a Bible verse here and there out of context, these folks have no proof for their claim.
Now for us, who follow the Spirit of God, we can see through the sham that is Mormonism. So about the only thing we can do is pray that like the apostle Paul, the scales will fall from their eyes and they will be able to see the real God and understand the true Gospel.
Just keep praying for the lurkers.
OK, time for me to make my cross-cultural communication point here regarding Mormonism and Christianity: What our Christian friends say makes perfect logical sense inside of mainstream Christianity, but not inside of Mormonism. What they say is 180 degrees out of phase with Mormonism. Their problem is that they’re stuck with incomplete information so they just keep going around in circles repeating their mottos and slogans about grace, repentance, redemption and salvation without really making any attempt to understand what these things mean inside of Mormonism. The tactical point for them is to put Mormons on the defensive by making absurd claims regarding Mormomism that we should practice polgamy and on and on. It gets BORING!
As Mormons, we can’t expect them to understand anything about the basics of the faith because they are not born again. The things we talk about are spiritually aprised and the mainstream Christians are thinking in the flesh without benefit of the Holy Spirit. Christians follow a different spirit. It’s the spirit of Helenism so while being led by that spirit, they will not “get” Mormonism. The devil has been pretty clever with these folks getting them to believe that there was no “great apostasy” and a no need for a restoration of the Gospel. Funny thing is, absent the “2000 years of church history” and grabing a Bible verse here and there out of context, these folks have no proof for their claim.
Now for us, who follow the Spirit of God, we can see through the sham that is mainstream Christianity. So about the only thing we can do is pray that like the apostle Paul, the scales will fall from their eyes and they will be able to see the real God and understand the true Gospel.
Just keep praying for missionary work.
Cluff,
I hope you don’t think you’re clever. You totally ignore any evidence brought before you because it does not agree with your existential testimony that has come from another spirit, since you believe in another gospel. You have to come up with all this conspiracy theory, which ultimately shows that you don’t understand that your message is a message that God CANNOT preserve His word or His church. You are blind to the truth, Cluff, and your testimony is the same testimony I held to for twenty years of my life–a false testimony based on false promptings by a false spirit.