This is a bit of silliness. Google is working on an indexing and infrastructure update it has named “Caffeine Update.” A forum discussion on the tool included this comment:
“So Google is developing an updated search tool called ‘Caffeine’
“I’m not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka Mormon Church) but I do respect other religions. Since the Mormon religion disallows caffeine, please consider changing the name. It’s kind of like marketing Google Bacon to Jewish or Muslim folks, or Google Brisket to Hindus.”
I don’t know if the commenter was serious or if he/she meant this as a joke, but it certainly has people laughing. It seems that all — Mormons and non-Mormons alike — agree that the idea is utterly ridiculous.
A few follow-on comments to the plea for religious sensitivity make an effort to inform people about the Word of Wisdom (i.e., that it does not actually prohibit caffeine). One or two (found at Search Engine Roundtable) express appreciation for the thoughtfulness and respect shown by the original commenter. Most say that naming a search engine update “Caffeine” is about as inconsequential as it gets.
One Mormon, however, wrote the following:
“As a Mormon, I am also prohibited from using Java or javascript, as well as any WINE-based software. “
Not to worry. The Word of Wisdom says “every…fruit in the season thereof [is] to be used with prudence and thanksgiving” (D&C 89:11). For Latter-day Saints who want to keep their temple recommends, there is an alternative to Google. Mormons can now use Microsoft’s new search engine derived from cherries, “Bing”, with complete freedom.
Pooka you said
“If anything, participating in the church has freed me from the false pretense that I am here on this earth to simply say “I believe” and then I’ll be saved… ”
I am new to this blog and I am in a lower league when it comes to quoting scripture…it did sadden me to read that the above was your interpretation of your path to salvation in your pre LDS days.
My simple view is that if you ‘truly’ believe in Him in the first place then you will be motivated to carry out good works etc. It is an automatic repsonse. A given. Then if you stray, you go back to the first premise and pray for guidance/repent and He will show you the way back to the right path. Then you are back to truly believing again.If you try the old ‘I believe and I will therefore be saved’ routine as your pretense… then He will see through that, as He is all knowing and you may as well not waste your time pretending.
Sorry I simply don’t understand the LDS starting point and the idea that carrying out good works will curry favour with respect to salvation. To me, there is a whole heap of man made ego embedded in this thought.
Lastly, this one is probably unanswerable…but I do wonder if any of the obviously intelligent LDS posters here would take a one minute break in terms of their unique religious beliefs and really think about what would stop them from leaving the LDS church…the obvious would be their LDS beliefs…..but where in the rankings would the fact that most have spent years devoting 110% of their energy into this belief system? Hence- where would ego rank on the totem pole…..interesting
Pookachamp – I see you believe there is some archeological basis for the Book of Mormom. I am very curious to what you have discovered, since that would cause the Smithsonian Institution to take back their statement they have been issuing for more than 30 years, stating there is no correlation between the Book of Mormon and archeological discoveries in North or South America.
Im’ surprised you think that was not a genuine question. I wondering what you think would constitute a “genuine question?
Archeology either is or isn’t. Organizations like the Smithsonian Institution just tells it like it is – they have no ax to grind with anybody. By the way, they started publishing the statement because missionaries were getting converts to the Church stating: The Smithsonian uses the Book of Mormon to find archeological discoveries. There is no such disclaimer, from the Smithsonion, for the Bible, or any of the thousands of finds that confirm the “truth” of the Bible.
Franco- So is action required to truly believe? Or to be called a believer? I’ve never heard it explained that way by traditional “Christians”.
Larry- A genuine question is one that, if told the answer, you would believe. Archeology is a study by men… that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist or it isn’t correct. Can science prove everything religious? Do we need scientific proof to have faith or to validate our faith?
I didn’t realize the Smithsonian was the final authority on the truthfulness of the Scriptures.
Pookachamp wrote, concerning which Biblical laws to follow, “We should follow those in the bible…”
Are you circumcised?
I apologise if I’m asking the wrong gender. if so, perhaps you could ask your Bishop if he is circumcised.
Presumably, the answer is “no”.
Presumably, the reason is “because of some continuing revelation or other”.
But then, why insist circumcision is unnecessary when the Bible includes so many explicit directives about it?
Compare polygamy, which JS and BY taught was essential to exaltation, when the Bible includes no explicit directions or commands.
What gives you the right to choose one, but not the other?
Martin- I didn’t get your point. Yes, I am circumcised… just to answer your question… wouldn’t to dodge a question.
But are you saying that my answer was a bad one? We shouldn’t follow the commandments in the bible? OR are the commandments really not that important? I honestly didn’t get your point… sorry for my lack of understanding.
Pooky- I read what I posted again, maybe it is my clunky wording…what I meant was that to me action/works are a natural outcome of true belief. True belief being the originator.
Time for a Franco tale….
I love sausage. There is one delicious sausage left on the plate at the center of the dinner table. My son spies the same sausage and looks at me with his pleading baby blues. I automatically give him the sausage. I just do it and smile as he devours it with gusto.
Now did I give him that sausage because I think he will give me 10 additional points in a ‘ how much can I love my son’ contest? Did I give it to him because that makes me feel like a better person…oh yes and HE might notice and also give me 10 points in HIS stairway to heaven contest?
No I just automatically gave it to him because I love him in the first place. The action eminated from that love. (Not sure if I felt a burning in the bosom….could have been heartburn) LOL!!
Can I ask you if you would have the same feeling in the same situation- or would you also feel great about yourself because you had just completed a good work? I am curious…..
I love HIM in the same way….I don’t at all believe that action is required to truly believe. I don’t feel smug or self satisfied after doing something that one could consider ‘good’.
Amazing…huh?
Poo, “Larry- A genuine question is one that, if told the answer, you would believe. ” Really, Wow, LOL, WOW.
Many years ago I asked my ethics professor, If it is unethical to accept bribes, even if working in foreign countries, why is it ok to accept lobbyist money.
That was a genuine question, I really wanted to know how to handle the dilemma, or more importantly how our elected leaders should handle the situation.
His answer, it is all situational, it depends on the cause, not the outcome. A very sound answer.
but I didn’t believe it because I don’t believe in reducing my integrity for a situation.
So a question can be ask with all honesty and sometimes the answer is nothing but B.S.
Poo, it’s apparent to me that you are really sensitive, easily offended. Your attempts to constrict the conversation because YOU feel that the questions are not genuine is nothing more then a futile attempt to limit the exposure of good questions.
How the Heck are you to decide what questions are genuine? Do you have a special insight to what I or anyone else is thinking when they ask their questions. If you are offended by the wording, then take note and carefully read what is being said.
I tried to rationalize with you, I am even willing to listen to your well thought out explanation of the subject matter or side bar topics. To date you have not referenced one source, you claim not to know about some of the most common cultural aspects of the morg.
You claim to have looked at the evidence I asked about, you said it don’t bother you, personally, that scares the crap out of me. When I took the missionary discussions I was not told once about all of Joe’s life. Had I known, I would have never joined; how could I? Joe was a treasure hunter who swindled people. He used his power to get a 14 year old girl to marry him while her father was sent on a mission. He plagiarized the book, “View of the Hebrews”
Franco- Okay, so it doesn’t matter if you “act” or not? YOu can be a true believer, while still being a liar, cheater, thief, murder, etc? IF Good actions make no difference, then do bad actions make a difference? Logic would say no… tell me how sin works then. If Good Works aren’t required to keep us on the path, do bad works detract us from the path?
If you argue that sin takes us off the path of righteousness, then it must follow that Good works keep us on the path. So if you stray from the path, can you still be a believer? … think hard about this one…
Lot’s of jumble there…
Summary… if Good acts are not required to be a “believer”, then Bad acts will not eliminate us from being “believers”. You must be a “believer” to be saved. Murderers, liars, thieves, adulterers, etc. can all be saved, regardless of their acts… as long as they are believers.
OR
The LDS alternative… Good works prove our willingness to believe, obedience to the commandments is a sign of our faith, salvation comes in part because of our willingness to follow Christ.
Can you explain better? This is more confusing than when I was an evangelical!!!!
Pooka, do you know what it means to be a new creation as described in 2 Cor 5:17?
Larry,
You ask: “Do you know what an ox is? ” Strange question.
Yes, I worked on my uncle’s farm as a teenager and I have even been involved in castrating young bulls. A steer is a castrated bull raised for beef whereas an ox can be either male or female bovine used as a draft animal. Oxen have largely been replaced by tractors in North America and Europe but are still commonly used in many rural parts of the third world.
There certainly are wild ox of many species. A woodland species of the muskox was once abundant throughout North America (as were horses) during the late Pleistocene (the end of the last ice age – about 8,000 years ago). While these species, as well as many other Pleistocene mammals are extinct today it is certainly possible that remnant populations could have persisted in isolated pockets for millennia.
Your comments concerning the Smithsonian Institute are about 15 years out of date. They have significantly changed and shortened their letter regarding the Book of Mormon given the many recent archeological discoveries which corroborate various items in the BoM (i.e. pre-Columbian horses, New World barley, cement, aquaducts, roads, etc.) Archeology is a science that is continually changing its long-held beliefs and paradigms as newer evidence is literally being unearthed. This is especially so in the field of Meso-American archeology as new digs are bringing to light new information concerning the Olmec, Aztec, and Mayan cultures – contemporaries and successors to the Book of Mormon cultures. My sister spent a number of seasons in the field in Central America excavating the Mayan site at Lamanai (in central Belize).
The field of Meso-American archeology is still in its infancy relative to that of Mid-Eastern archeology. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of archeological sites in Central America which have yet to be excavated. Who knows, maybe one day archeologists will find a road sign saying “Zarahemla – next exit”. 🙂
Kevin-
It scares the crap out of me that you were exposed to the plain and simple truth that is taught in the LDS church, and fell from that. I’m not sensitive, I’m just shocked at how silly many of the questions are… I was in your shoes once, I asked the same questions, and it was usually because I was told to ask that question because it would incriminate the mormons. That’s all this website is about… incrimination.
By the way, in your example, it sounded like you really wanted to know, and you were asking someone who you thought knew more than you. Your questions on this website are in arrogance and slander. You know that… don’t act all holy about it.
I haven’t cited any sources because we haven’t spoken about anything that needs citation… Like I said, let’s talk about the Trinity! I’ll give you all the citations you’d like… Let’s talk about the commandments… let’s talk
Pooky…wow this thread is hysterical. This is like a game of ‘who’s on first”. Obviously you don’t share my love of sausage. LOL!
I can’t see where you would come to the conclusion that I have discounted actions and you postulate that I think that one can commit heinous crimes and slip through the pearly gates with a free pass because I am a ‘believer’? Huh? I suggest that you go back to my first post.
I posted that the orginator is my belief in Him. As I truly do believe, good works, good actions eminate from that belief. In this context, actions matter….but they are outcomes of the original belief. These good works or actions don’t get me any more points with him in my view. If one orinally holds a ‘true’ belief in Him then they won’t carry out those acts that you described. If a cheater or liar does discover the right path and genuinely seeks redemption…then I believe they can be saved.
Note the word ‘genuine’ not lip service, no free passes . You see He will know if you are genuine in your quest to find the right path. I have seen many instances of people committing terrible crimes ‘turning to god’ after the fact. It is up to Him to decide if they are genuine…not me. How would I know?
Back to first base…LOL
No Mike P… I don’t
Please enlighten me.
Do you know what is meant by the word “head” as described in 1 Cor 11:3?
St. Crispin… but that can’t be! NO… if they found a sign to Zarahemla, than that may be proof that the BofM is true… and that simply just can’t be!!!! It just can’t be true, no matter what explanation, proof, etc… because Mormon Coffee says so!
Franco-
So Actions do matter?
“In this context, actions matter…”
Okay, so actions matter.
Thanks for the clarification,
Pooky… You are too funny!
Too much….I knew you would extract only those words from my post. Forget the previous sentence I posted and the end of that sentence…
( Now I am getting closer to understanding why the LDS has such lousy market share in Australia)….sorry Ralph.
pookachamp,
Thanks for responding, quite openly, to my question on circumcision.
My point is that its not a practice that is sustained in either the orthodox or LDS movements. Neither movement says to its members “practice circumcision or we’ll throw you out”. Given that the OT includes many references and commands concerning circumcision (God even tries to kill Moses on the issue – see Ex 4:24-26), this begs the question “why not”? After all, it is a command.
Its Jesus and his followers, including Paul, who take up this question in the NT, and their conclusions put them into direct conflict with the religious authorities. Jesus, who spearheaded a counter-temple movement, opens by declaring that its not what we eat (or do) that makes us clean, its something else (see Matt 15:11).
In other words, its not our “works” (obedience to the law) that qualifies us for entry into the temple; its faith (see Mark 2:10). Paul continues by saying that we’re not justified by works, but we are justified by grace (see Eph 2:8-9).
Circumcision (or obedience to the commands), argues Paul, does not justify one’s claim to be part of the Kingdom. It is faith in Christ that does. In fact, when I rely on my obedience to the commands, I’m demonstrating a lack of faith. This is because I’m not relying on Christ, I’m relying on my obedience to him. There is a difference.
Its not that obedience to the commands is bad, in fact the NT consistently promotes the law as a good thing. However, true obedience comes about as a result of our new life; it is not its cause. And the lack of obedience is a symptom that this new life has died, or was still-born. Want to know more? Its all there in the NT (and OT).
It is my firm conviction that understanding this conflict between Jesus and the Temple-building mob is of critical importance to understanding the message of the New Testament. That is why I asked the question.
I worry that you have chosen the side that Jesus and his followers opposed.
Okay Martin (and the commical Franco)-
I love the argument that “obedience to the commands isn’t a bad thing.” Of course it’s not. But if disobedience to the commands IS a bad thing, then obedience to the commands is a good thing… right?
But my question is… IF it’s not a requirement for SOMETHING (let’s exclude salvation if you’d like), then why do they even exist? Why are they called COMMANDments? Not “IFYOUWANTments”, or “NOTBADIFYOUDOments”, but “COMMANDments.” What does that word mean? It implicitly means that we are commanded to obey, and if not, there will be bad consequences… and if we DO, there will good consequences. It’s so simple.
Now Martin, you said that when you rely on your obedience to the commandments, you’re demonstrating a lack of faith. I believe that your faith is simply on the side that Jesus and his followers opposed.
“Faith without works is Dead”… I’ve heard all of the evangelical arguments about this… but it stands as a testament that you cannot have faith unless you have good works. “Chicken or the Egg”? Does faith come first, or do good works come first? Or do they happen simultaneously? I believe that is a case by case answer.
BUt see… THIS is the fundamental problem with this argument, and many others that I’m sure I will participate in on this blog. NO MATTER WHAT (pending a visit from Christ… hopefully), nothing I say will ever be good enough because you will interpret things the way YOU want to… whether it is the way it was intended or not. Who’s the ultimate authority here on earth on how the Bible/each verse should be interpreted? Not me, not Martin from Brisbane, and definitely not Aaron Shahvvlaoff. So we’re all debating… excuse me… THe LDS people are defending their positions, while the extremists throw daggers… and it all comes down to faith, revelation, and interpretation.
I feel almost like I’m on a political website… debating healthcare or immigration. No spirit here…
Pooka, I hate to answer questions with another question, but I am going to here.
1) What do you think it means to be a new creation in Christ? Keep in mind that Franco and others have said that once you believe, you work…
2) A question that you never really answered but asked a question about is what works are we to do? Are we to follow the strict commands as given through the LDS faith? Or are we to serve our neighbors?
3) You talked about the 10 Commandments. What did Christ have to say about them?
What then are we to do with these issues? Go back to what the Pharisees were guilty of, a system based on pride, the traditions of men, and an impossible-to-meet-God’s-standards system, or one where we allow God into our lives and allow him to form our lives?
BTW, if you went to a Christian church, these ideas should sound familiar. If not, I implore you to research them.
Pooky,
Me and Ralph were going on about works verses grace, He might come on and say, I told Rick and he did not listen to me, It’s more a matter of we do not agree, but here goes.
Works cannot save us. Jesus said that on the day of Judgment many will say, Lord Lord, did I not cast out demons or perform Miracles or do all these various works in YOUR NAME. They will be told, I never knew you. So works cannot save.
If works could save, then why did paul say, we are saved by Grace, NOT BY WORKS.
Your cursed if your not keeping the entire law. How can anyone know if they keep the entire law? You admitted you dont fully keep the WoW so your not keeping the entire law. How do we know when enough works is enough?
If works save, then it so sad for people dying on their death bed, at least according to LDS, But not us Christians.
Christians do good works because we GET TO and WANT TO, We do not do them because WE HAVE TO. Works cannot save as the scriptures I gave you point out.
Rick b
RickB,
The verses you quote in D&C appear to be an arguement for vegetarianism. I practiced that for a few years, and that was an influence. But believe me, as far as church policy goes, avoiding meat or eating ‘sparingly’ or in times of winter or famine doesn’t seem important, its certainly difficult to define what is ‘sparingly’. The minimal requirements are just avoiding alcohol, tea & coffee, tobacco, illegal drugs. Its not specifically stated, but it should also include any overuse or abuse of substances which is intended to cause altered consciousness, that can cause harm.
There is also the concept of ‘temporal salvation’ in the LDS faith. Is that of any concern for the Non-LDS christian? I believe the concept and spirit of the W0W is to provide physical benefits to members within their lifetime. I don’t especially perscribe to the WOW as I have a different understanding of alcohol, tea etc…at the present. I believe that its composed by human understanding, and although its not perfect, its not entirely off in its recommendations for improving human health.
Shelli,
“4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
7But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
9Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, won’t he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.
1 Corinthians 8
Enki, I love it that you referenced 1 Corinthians 8, as there is a little teeny blip in it (as a sidenote) that the LDS use to validate their concept of many gods.
I’m encouraged to see that you see what’s actually being written there…
Enki said
I love how the LDS dont have a clue about their teachings, but yet can tell us they know exactly what is being taught.
Lets see, Enki say’s Define sparingly, yet the WoW says Hot drinks and yet the LDS are 100 percent positive hot drinks are hot coffee and tea, but not hot soup or broth or hot milk, etc.
Then when us non-LDS say well what about cold coffee or tea, they say, It’s not so much a matter of it being hot or cold, but the fact that it has tanic acid or something like that. Man you guys are funny.
Then Enki says I dont follow the WoW to the letter, but following all the laws plays a role in salvation. So why are we non-lds hammered about Works based faith when LDS dont do it. Again, Jesus called these people hypocrites. Rick b
RickB,
You said “why did paul say, we are saved by Grace, NOT BY WORKS” – I will say again that you have misquoted the scripture. Paul said “For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Now you have not answered my question from the last page – Is that LIVING faith (ie WITH works) or DEAD faith (ie WITHOUT works) as referenced in James 2:17, 20, 26 that saves us?
Ａｓ Ｉ ｓａｉｄ ｏｎ ｔｈｅ ｌａｓｔ ｐａｇｅ， ｗｅ ｔｅａｃｈ ａｎｄ ｂｅｌｉｅｖｅ ｔｈａｔ ｆａｉｔｈ ｃｏｍｅｓ ｆｉｒｓｔ ａｎｄ ｔｈｒｏｕｇｈ ｔｈｉｓ ｃｏｍｅｓ ｏｕｒ ｗｏｒｋｓ． Ｔｈｅ ｗｏｒｋｓ ｗｅ ｄｏ ａｒｅ ｗｈａｔ ｗｅ ｂｅｌｉｅｖｅ ｔｈａｔ Ｊｅｓｕｓ ｗａｎｔｓ ｕｓ ｔｏ ｄｏ － ｔｈｕｓ ｗｅ ａｒｅ ｄｏｉｎｇ ｔｈｅｍ ｂｅｃａｕｓｅ ｏｆ ｏｕｒ ｆａｉｔｈ ｉｎ Ｈｉｍ． Ａｌｌ ｏｆ ｔｈｅ ｑｕｏｔｅｓ ａｂｏｕｔ ｗｈａｔ ｗｅ ｎｅｅｄ ｔｏ ｄｏ ａｒｅ ｔｏ ｔｈｏｓｅ ｗｈｏ ａｌｒｅａｄｙ ｈａｖｅ ｆａｉｔｈ ａｎｄ ａｒｅ ｔｅａｃｈｉｎｇ ｕｓ ｔｈａｔ ｊｕｓｔ ｓａｙｉｎｇ ｗｅ ｂｅｌｉｅｖｅ ｉｓ ｎｏｔ ｅｎｏｕｇｈ， ｗｅ ｍｕｓｔ ｈａｖｅ ｌｉｖｉｎｇ ｆａｉｔｈ， ｎｏｔ ｄｅａｄ ｆａｉｔｈ．
Ｐｌｕｓ ｙｏｕ ｈａｖｅ ｎｏｔ ａｎｓｗｅｒｅｄ ｍｙ ｑｕｅｓｔｉｏｎ ａｂｏｕｔ ｗｈｙ， ｉｆ ｗｏｒｋｓ ａｒｅ ｎｏｔ ’ｎｅｃｅｓｓａｒｙ’ ｆｏｒ ｓａｌｖａｔｉｏｎ ｗｈｙ ｄｏｅｓ ｔｈｅ Ｂｉｂｌｅ ｔｅａｃｈ ｔｈａｔ ｏｕｒ ｆａｉｔｈ ｗｉｌｌ ｂｅ ｊｕｄｇｅｄ ｂｙ ｏｕｒ ｗｏｒｋｓ ｏｎ ｔｈｅ ｄａｙ ｏｆ ｊｕｄｇｍｅｎｔ （ｆｏｒ ｒｅｆｅｒｅｎｃｅｓ ｓｅｅ ｏｔｈｅｒ ｐｏｓｔｓ ｏｎ ｔｈｅ ｏｔｈｅｒ ｐａｇｅ）？
Ｔｈａｔ ｉｓ ｈｏｗ ｗｏｒｋｓ ａｒｅ ｉｍｐｏｒｔａｎｔ ｔｏ ｏｕｒ ｓａｌｖａｔｉｏｎ － ｔｈｅｙ ｍａｋｅ ｆａｉｔｈ ｌｉｖｉｎｇ ｆａｉｔｈ ａｎｄ ｏｕｒ ｆａｉｔｈ ｗｉｌｌ ｂｅ ｊｕｄｇｅｄ ｔｈｒｏｕｇｈ ｏｕｒ ｗｏｒｋｓ．
Ｓｏｏｒｙ ａｂｏｕｔ ｔｈｅ ｆｏｒｍａｔ － Ｉ ｄｏｎ’ｔ ｋｎｏｗ ｗｈａｔ’ｓ ｈａｐｐｅｎｅｄ ｉｔ ｓｔｒｔｅｄ ｏｕｔ ｏｆ ｔｈｅ ｂｌｕｅ ａｎｄ Ｉ ｃａｎ’ｔ ｆｉｎｄ ｈｏｗ ｔｏ ｆｉｘ ｉｔ．
Ralph,
Those verses in Revelation, talking about the dead being judged by the books, is talking about the second resurrection.
Those of us who are “saved” will be in the first.
Does that help?
RickB,
You made the following statement,
“Then Enki says I dont follow the WoW to the letter, but following all the laws plays a role in salvation.”
How do you get that from what I said?
“I don’t especially perscribe to the WOW as I have a different understanding of alcohol, tea etc…at the present. I believe that its composed by human understanding, and although its not perfect, its not entirely off in its recommendations for improving human health.”
Notice I DON’T especially perscribe to the WOW!…I belive its composed by HUMAN understanding. I’m not LDS, I’m not christian, I don’t know how many times I need to say it, I guess as many times as is required!
Isn’t it possible to discuss and or debate certain points without being fundementalist christian or LDS?
Pookachamp and Evs alike,
OK, let’s discuss the faith vs works thing, though maybe its time to resurrect yet another thread on the subject.
One problem I have with this discussion, though, and will continue to have, is that most arguments on both sides are presented from a modern 21st century western perspective. Its treated as a post-enlightenment cause-and-effect issue.
My problem with it is this; if we want to know what Jesus and Paul were saying, we need to approach it from their perspective.
Commonly, there’s an unspoken assumption that the Biblical authors thought EXACTLY like us. Now, I don’t think that they were so radically different that there’s no point to trying to understand them, but one difference is our failure to recognize the importance to them of their defining mythologies.
For example, if we read the story of Jonah, our first reaction is “did it happen?”. Their reaction would have been “where do I see myself in this story?”, or “which character describes me?”.
The defining mythologies of the NT authors are the stories of the OT, in particular the stories of the Exodus and Exile.
This is a long-winded way of saying that if we want to understand the NT message of faith vs works, we need to see it against the backdrop of the OT.
To the point, in the Exodus story, the Israelites were redeemed (the Red Sea) BEFORE they received the law (Mount Sinai). This being the case, how can they be redeemed BY observing the law?
Or, as Paul argues, Abraham was justified BEFORE his circumcision. Obeying the law of circumcision had no bearing on his justification (Romans 4:9-10).
Pooka, I’ll continue to feed this Biblical stuff here as long as I can. I fear it might be the only source of Bible exposition that remains open to you. You’ve signed up with an organization that is proudly trapped in 19th Century deism and you won’t get it there
I hope your alarm bells go off when you realize that you have ceased to think about what the Bible actually says
Setfree,
I had a discussion years ago about 1 Corinthians 8, I was suprised to learn that avoiding things sacrificed to idols was not a requirement for christians, neither was avoiding blood or things strangled, although in other places it appeared to be a requirement. The explanation was that in pagan rome,animals were sacrificed and the meat would show up for sale in the markets, as it was perfectly good for consumption. So there was some question for early christians if this was ‘kosher’ or not. There were other questions about other aspects of the O.T. laws.
I do have some questions. Let me know if this is correct or not. The O.T. god states that he is ‘holy’ and expected the ‘people of god’ to be holy, and then listed what is acceptible and what is vile, detestable, an abomination. By the N.T. times there is still a sense of ‘holiness’ but its somewhat different. God is the one that does the cleansing. But there is still a list of detestable things, but it is drastically shortened. The short list is found in
1 Corinthians 6:9-11, so no more avoiding unclean foods, avoiding wearing mixed fabrics etc…
Its interesting how most philosophies have maybe one or a few things as the foundation, and volumes can be formed from that. By comparision Jainism is concerned about ‘ahimsa’ or ‘non-violence’,not about avoiding unclean things. But the rules can seem just as lengthy as the jewish religion.
So, there is the ‘short list’ so are these the only concerns for christians, as far as being ‘holy’? The only sins which one is to be ‘saved by grace’ from? Christians are not expecting to be judged about eating shrimp, pork or blood sausage? What about calling anyone ‘unclean’? Acts 10: 28 I have heard many christians do this.
continued…
There is something interesting and kind of odd at the same time about this. Christianty seems to have allowed more aspects of other cultures to remain intact than would the jewish religion. For instance, eskimo culture centered around harvesting marine mammals, which are not kosher.
The odd part is that it seems like so many ‘pagan’ customs are allowed to be practiced, but the emphasis is now on worshiping jesus. For example the christmas ham has its origins in pagan europe in the celebration of ‘yule’. Its very common for christians to even use the word ‘yule’ and have a ham in celebration.
There is an interesting commentary about wine and grape products as it relates to kosher.
“The restrictions on grape products derive from the laws against using products of idolatry. Wine was commonly used in the rituals of all ancient religions, and wine was routinely sanctified for pagan purposes while it was being processed. For this reason, use of wines and other grape products made by non-Jews was prohibited. (Whole grapes are not a problem, nor are whole grapes in fruit cocktail).”
(from Judaism 101)
I can only speculate if jews drink only jewish made wine, the context of the comment seems to indicate that is the case. I have seen the images of the god ‘Bacchus’ in wineries. Dionysus is the Greek god of wine and intoxication, known as Bacchus to Romans. Its interesting to note that there are Saints Sergius and Bacchus as well.
I am curious to know what you think is the reason for all this. Why is it that some christian traditions have allowed pagan stories, festivals and figures to remain basically intact, but just changing the names or the emphasis of these celebrations. I don’t think Judaism would have done this, that would have changed too many characteristics of their religion.
Rick B- It’s so comforting being Christian, isn’t it! You don’t have to follow the commandments, serve your neighbor, or anything… you just have to say, “I Believe”. So according to your belief, Mormons will be saved too… because we believe.
I never said I don’t fully obey the WoW… nice try.
And I never said that works save us. It is the atonement of Christ that ultimately saves us. BUT… he asks us, rather, commands us to do things. Have Faith is one, be obedient to his commandments is another, be baptized is another… and he asks/commands us to do these things because it is what he did, and it means something. No one will perfectly follow the commandments that God has set forth, and that is where grace comes in. That is where the scripture you quoted comes in… a gift of God. But if we do nothing, we have no faith, and thus cannot be saved. But if we try our best to do as the Lord would have us do, that’s a pretty darn good sign that you have faith, and God’s grace will take you up. It’s a beautiful and simple principle… picture your kid outstretching her hands saying “Daddy, pick me up!”… Very little action there on her part, and all of the work is going to be done by Daddy… but she’s trying to get closer… she’s trying, but just can’t get there.
Brisbane- So are you saying there was no Law before the red sea “redemption”? What is law if it doesn’t need to be obeyed?
Bible is key
Michael P- You must be drinking too much sacrament Wine. You asked me a question. I said that I didn’t know the answer and I asked you to explain it to me. You didn’t… maybe you missed something.
NOw your other questions…
1) I have my understanding, but could you please explain?
2) I did answer that question. We are to obey all commandments that God has revealed, and will continue to reveal through the mouth of his Prophets. You speak of the 10 commandments… yes, I believe that the Law was fulfilled by Christ… To be continued
… (continued)
but we were also given a higher law. Not only should we not commit adultery, but now we should even lust after a woman. Etc. These were “new” commandments… Do you think it’s possible to have “new Commandments” revealed through a prophet? If not, explain why.
So to answer your question, so that I don’t get accused of Dodging and being Dishonest… Yes, we are to obey the laws that have been revealed through modern day prophets found in the LDS church, and yes, we are to serve our neighbors.
3) I think I answered that question…
But I will say, the 10 commandments are a good way to start a discussion about obedience. I only reference the 10 commandments as an example of laws found in the Bible.
One side note on your comment… I believe you have already gone back to the world of the pharisees, following the false traditions created by man hundreds of years ago, in a little council in Nicea. Or was it after that? …. which Christianity do you follow?
When I was an evangelical, I was shocked at how different the teachings were as I went from Pastor to Pastor, in the same “Church or Religion”. My baptist minister told me, not to worry about the details… to focus on having faith… and the rest would come. I find it Ironic that the message on this website is very different… the feeling is… Look at all of the details and try to make the mormons prove it… and if they can’t, call them dishonest, and liars , and tell them their prophet is false… forget about faith, revelation, basics… just get them on all the crazy things they believe.
Even more, I was shocked at the differences among people who called themselves Christian. They all believed in Christ, and they all believed they didn’t need to do anything to be saved… except raise their hand and say “I believe”. But they had some serious fundamental differences in their view of GOd, Christ, obedience, faith, chastity, etc. Strange and confusing. I like light
I’ve only been a believer 11 years. There are people more qualified than I to represent the Bible. But here are some of my thoughts.
One thing I’ve learned since leaving “the church” and becoming a believer is that you cannot decide what the Bible is and what it says before you get there. It is absolutely loaded with truth, and even the way that it is put together is significant.
Pooka doesn’t seem to have ever studied it. There are probably a lot of Christians who don’t. But those who care will try to learn as much about it as possible.
One thing that has struck me lately is that God seems to have broken down time (in the Bible) into 5 parts. In the first part, He was with man. There was no law, and so there was no sin, and He and Adam and Eve (and all their kids would have, if they hadn’t chosen to know good from evil) could just dwell together.
God is absolutely Holy. This is one point the Bible is clear on.
Take part two: how much detail did God give about His temple? How perfect did everything have to be? Absolutely perfect! And then, God’s presence could be close to man.
Part three: Jesus is here. He’s absolutely perfect. God dwells in Him. This is why He says that He is the temple. He is! He’s God’s new temple, a more perfect one than the one the Israelites had.
Part 4: Jesus ascends, and sends the Holy Spirit to indwell the believer. Now the individuals (collectively) who truly believe God are the temple! They are perfect because of their position “in Christ” and His work on the cross. This is where God dwells in the current age, to be close to mankind.
Part 5: No sin again. God is with all the people who have believed Him since the whole human thing started. No barriers between He and them.
To Pooka: God expects absolute perfection. The Jews thought they could do it by living the law. Apparently, you think you can too. A popular LDS expression is “after all you can do”, which does not agree with Miracle of Forgiveness.
To Enki: Those are great questions.
If the LDS leadership were being honest, instead of giving the chapter heading to reflect verse 5, a good summary verse of the chapter would be verse 9.
Those of us who are ‘in Christ’ are perfect. That is how God sees us, THROUGH CHRIST. It’s as though He is looking at Christ when He looks at us. Meanwhile, the Holy Spirit is working in us to clean us up, and Jesus is standing between us and the Father to make intercession in everything.
Because we are forgiven even as we make the mistake (and by “we” I mean true believers, God knows who we are), we have “liberty”. BUT… those of us who have this liberty feel like Paul does about it… that we do not want someone weak in the faith to have their “conscience seared” by something we are doing. Though we are prone to mistakes, we want the world to see who HE is when they look at us. We don’t want His image skewed in someone’s mind, because they take Him to be who we are reflecting Him to be. Does that make sense?
For example, let’s say I want to drink a beer (this is hypothetical :)). Do I want my Mormon neighbors to think “Christians drink beer” and therefore have them throw out the Bible because of me? God forbid! I’d rather ask God to take away my taste for beer than to give any reason for someone who doesn’t know God to think any less of Him because of me!
Why did the Jews have to keep so many more laws? Jesus had not yet come and done the work necessary for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
They could not keep the law perfectly either. It was those who believed God who had His righteousness IMPUTED to them, same as it is now.
Summary: Though Christ’s “Church” (the true believers) are completely forgiven, we have the DESIRE to allow others to be able to find Christ by cleaning up our act. This most importantly means LOVING others, which is made possible by God’s Spirit in here, kicking my carnal spirit’s butt. lol
Does that help answer your question?
Set Free- Thanks for the words in my mouth… let me try to extract them.
1). I study the bible plenty. Studying the bible is what led me away from the traditional evangelical theologies. FYI.
2). I never said that I thought I could be perfect by living the law. I actually said the exact opposite… that it’s impossible to be perfect on our own. We obviously need Christ and his atonement.
As you misread my statements, i’m sure you’ve misread Miracle of Forgiveness.
ONe side note, I love how you can be perfect, and more perfect. If you can be more than perfect, than you weren’t perfect before. Just a rhetoric issue…
Ekni, I seem to recall you saying your not a Christian or LDS. I forgot and thought you were LDS, I’m sorry so a reminder here and their is great.
Setfree, dont EVER put your self down saying I’m only 11 years into the Lord and others know more. Their are many believers and so called believers that could recite the entire Bible, yet they do not really understand it or even believe it. Look at the Churchs now saying Homosexuals are allowed to serve in church and it’s a good life style.
The Bible is very clear, than NO HOMOSEXUAL WILL EVER ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.
Ralph, I’ll get you an answer to you question Just be patient. Rick b
Pooka said
I’ve pointed out what Jesus and Paul have both said many times, let me do it again.
If you want to do works that cannot save then so be it, but the religious leaders said to Jesus,
Notice these guys asked what WORKS They can do. Jesus said:
Rick B-
All you did was confirm… that according to your beliefs, Mormons who believe will be saved. We just going to try to do a bit more than you… call it the extra mile. 🙂
If works aren’t necessary to validate belief, then the commandments and all that God has said, is saying, and will say, is mute… because all we have to do is believe.
I have a question for Rick B. If God himself… or in a form that YOU could handle… came down and said that everything you have been learning, teaching, etc. is wrong. The truth is being taught by Buddhist ministers, and you need to follow the buddhist life… would you be willing to do so?
Or if he came down and told you that you needed to be Mormon… in person… would you be willing to?
I’ve asked this in the past to other evangelicals, and they always say… “Well, God wouldn’t do that”, or “If that happened, I would cast that Devil away because God would not ask me to do that.” I’m not asking if a false God approached you… I’m saying if your God, Christ… came to you… and said… You are living a life of lies… you need to be (fill in the blank) or you need to do (blank), and it’s contrary to what “traditional Christianity” is teaching… would you be willing to make a change?
I’d like all evangelicals to answer this question. I was the only evangelical friend of mine that answered this question “yes”… NO dodging… simple question.
Pooka,
The thing you seem to not grasp is this, Not ONLY did Jesus Himself say their is only one work, this is to believe, but He (Jesus) Also said this,
All these laws that LDS are trying to put upon us are summed up into ONLY 2, And they both come down to ONE LAW, LOVE.
Then Jesus says,
You guys look to Keep the letter of the law, But Jesus looks Past the law to Mercy and Love.
Then Jesus said,
The Law does not bring or show grace.
Here it says:
The LAW CANNOT JUSTIFY.
What about this
And
Rick
Heres more
I can add more.
Did you know Jesus Broke the Law? That would pose a problem in the LDS view.
Let me ask you one last question POOKA, Did you read the verses I posted? Or did you glance at them and then blow the rest off and now are leaving a reply? Rick b
Before I forget, about your question.
No I would not believe it was God speaking to me, Hebrews Teaches that God spoke to us through His Son, And that John teaches the Word is God in the flesh.
Plus you said, well us LDS believe as you so we must be saved. Nope your not, you teach another gospel just as Paul in Gal teaches. If we get past the words and look into the meanings it’s clear you have a completely different Gospel. Rick b
Faith without works is dead, but you are misapplying it. Faith saves you – alone! Works come from our gratitude for the salvation provided by Jesus’ death on the cross and His resurrection from the dead! As Rick has pointed out, there are a lot of scriptures pointing to this fact. Our love for Christ compels us to do good works, but it does not save us. I don’t understand why, after all the scriptures were posted,and they were explained, you don’t understand God’s clear word and hold onto one verse instead of taking the whole counsel of God. You cannot make doctrine out of one verse. You need the whole of God’s word to understand what God is saying. Setfree, it is great to see you on here standing for the true Jesus!
RIck B-
You’re off your rocker! Hahaa… you would Deny God if he appeared to you? Going forward, I will ignore everything you say/type… I can’t respect someone who would deny God if HE himself spoke to you. Your heart is hard… unable to be taught by the spirit. Crazy!
Shelli-
I don’t believe I’m misapplying anything… so you’re saying faith does not require works to be valid faith. Many of your evangelical colleagues would agree, however some would disagree. Also, just a technicality, it’s not faith alone that saves you, but the grace of God that lifts us up in the end.
No one has been able to explain to me why we even have commandments. If it doesn’t matter if we obey (because all we need is faith), then why even have commandments. And why choose the word “command”ments instead of “recommend”ments or “Ifyouwanna”ments or “ifyahavefaith”ments. Why does he command us to love (a word of action), to honor (a word of action), to be perfect (be… a word of action), follow, obey, have, do, keep, etc. All words of action… Why does he “command” these things of action? He does not recommend these things…
All of the laws are summed up into two… Love God and Love your neighbor. Keep sabath (God), No lie (neighbor), hometeaching (neighbor), tithing (God and neighbor), etc. Very basic principles… shocked that there’s not more understanding from our evangelical counterparts.
Pooka, I think I’ll let you give your thoughts, as an ex-Christian, on what it means to be a new creation. You should have an understanding of it, as it is a basic part of the process of becoming a Christian. Its pretty simple, but profound.
The questions regarding commandments is to get your mind thinking on whether or not they are to be literally followed, or are instructions for our heart and mindset. See, the latter is what Christ meant when he talked about commiting adultery and murder. So, let’s ask a question: do you ever glance at a woman a second time? How about getting so angry with someone you wish bad things on them? If you even come close to one of these, you sin, and following another commandment will nto cover it up. Keep in mind that the smallest of sin is just as damning as the biggest.
Your comment of me being a pharisee is revealing, as it is laced with sarcasm and what I perceive as anger. Its as if you are really trying to justify your new found faith.
And that leads me to a comment on your old faith. I do not wish to question your integrity, but I wonder what your experiences were in Christian churches, and the teaching you recieved, or how much you were listening. If you are willing, we are here to help you understand them better, because the messages are very different from what you say you found.
And that leads to another question/point: you say you left because you did not like to focus on other faiths and then you say it was after you studied the Bible more. Do you care to expand on these two different ideas and your process of conversion?
Thanks.
Just and interesting observation – when some of the LDS on this site say that the people like Setfree and Kevin, etc, left the LDS church because they did not understand it fully and are now not representing it properly, we are laughed at and told that they were members and so can give a proper view of the LDS church.
Then along comes Pookachamp and Jason saying that they grew up in a Christian background and they tell you what they learned and believed as well as their friends, you tell them they are wrong and misrepresenting the truth. Doesn’t this seem a little two faced here?
Shelli,
So I understand from what you say here “Faith without works is dead, but you are misapplying it. Faith saves you – alone!” that you believe that DEAD faith can save you. Am I right? If you believe that only LIVING faith can save you then you cannot separate faith from works. But I have agreed many times, our works come from our faith in Jesus and our desire to serve Him and follow Him. But without the works our faith is DEAD. So can DEAD faith save?
The Bible teaches that ultimately our faith will be judged on the works we do because of it, because that is the only true way to see our faith.
Also, your question on if I would accept Mormonism if God came to talk to me? Well, yes. But I would also be very skeptical if the person talking was God and search scripture and prayer, and outside council to verify what “God” told me.
So, to reverse that, if God came to talk to you and told you Mormonism was false, would you leave?
Don’t tell me that God has already told you. That is not my question: my question is if he told it was wrong, what would do? Would you leave? How would you come to a conclusion?
If its fair for you to ask me, I can ask you.
You want to know why we have commandments? Well, I’ll return to my statement in the prior post: I think they are largely to be reminders of what is in our heart. But it really goes a bit further because after Christ fulfilled the commandments, you have to ask what they are now.
Now, I know you currently believe that Smith brought something new in his restoration of the church. But understand that the strongest basis, and even a strong basis from LDS, is in the Bible. I do know you can say baptism is there, as is communion, love your neighber, love Christ, and those. These can be found in the Bible.
But can you really expand these to everything the LDS follow? I don’t think so, not without something new.
But if you have something new, that brings in a whole new discussion about how the BoM fits against the Bible.
Ralph, actually, I have thought of that exact thing: about the perception of those who leave the churches. However, notice I am asking him his background, and trying to lead him through it. I do wonder his background, because a basic like becoming a new creation is foundational.
I am saddened by his decision, and wish to find out why he made it.
Ralph, I agree with Shelli, But as I have said before, Faith Alone saves us not works.
Not only did I post a ton of Scripture but as I have said before also, If a person is on their death bed and they repent and then die they are saved. Did they do ANY WORKS before they died? No they did not, are they still saved? Yes they are.
We do works because were saved and we get to, not we have to. The other thing is this, I would agree that if we see someone that claims to be saved, but is not doing any works that they might not be saved. But the problem is, if we live to follow someone around every moment of their life to see if they are doing works, then we are not doing any.
Pooka, your crazy if you think I am hard of heart by the question you asked. I suspect if you were honest you would tell me that you asked that question because you were going to say, If I or anyone else answered yes, then you would reply with, Well then God came in the BoM or by way of JS or our LDS prophets and told you and now you dont listen.
Am I correct in guessing that? JS had 9 different first vision accounts, Which one do I trust? Read Gal 1:8-9 or Hebrews, God said HE SPOKE to us in these last days by HIS SON, Read the Bible, It say to test every spirit and that Satan can come in the form of an angle of light.
Then you said I’m saying if the Real God came to you, not a false god. The problem saying that is this, The real God already told us he would not come as you said, Jesus himself said, if People say to you, I am here or over their or in the desert or in secret chambers do not believe them.
Also your being a bit dishonest by not telling us if we do not agree then you will call us hard of heart and never speak to us again, thats being dishonest. Rick b
Setfree,
I don’t understand that at all…
“Because we are forgiven even as we make the mistake (and by “we” I mean true believers, God knows who we are), we have “liberty”. BUT… those of us who have this liberty feel like Paul does about it… that we do not want someone weak in the faith to have their “conscience seared” by something we are doing. ”
Certainly my impression of fundementalist christians are influenced by what they say and do. I never understood any branch of christianity as thinking of themselves having ‘liberty’ with the rules. If this is really a true element of fundementalist christian philosophy it explains a lot.
In one of previous places of employment, my coworkers were mostly ex-military men and fundmentalist christian. They were married and constantly complaining about their children, wives and their marriage in general, and bragging about their latest extra-marital affairs. It wasn’t at all unusual for some of them to get loaded at a ‘kegger’ and come to work still recovering from alcohol.
Overall I found this workplace an unpleasant place to work, and sought employment elsewhere. Just more than a year later I got news that a few of the employees got arrested for cheating that company out of more than $50,000.
So, are you telling me that fundementalist christians aren’t required to even follow the short list? (In 1 Corinthians 6:9-11) It does specifically list drunkards, and extortioners as not entering the kingdom of heaven. These are two items addressed in the LDS temple interview, amoung others….
Rickb,
“Their are many believers and so called believers that could recite the entire Bible, yet they do not really understand it or even believe it. Look at the Churchs now saying Homosexuals are allowed to serve in church and it’s a good life style.
The Bible is very clear, than NO HOMOSEXUAL WILL EVER ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.”
All the press given to this one issue has ‘the body of christ’ very divided. I meantioned to setfree the work place I once worked. These people were also very homophobic, racist, sexist, and phobic to any philosophy other than fundementalist christianity. They were quite sure they were ‘saved’ because they weren’t gay. I guess that is the one point they have mastery of, then again one never knows maybe its something they just never bragged about, like their extra-martial affairs.
Setfree,
There is a word ‘thelema’which might be worth your time looking up, there is a commentary in wiki about it.
For some reason your comments made me think of ” “Do what thou Wilt” as presented in Aleister Crowley’s Book of the Law.” Wikipedias entry goes on to say,
“Despite the frequent assumption that “Do what thou Wilt” is solely an exhortation to hedonism or licentiousness, Thelema as it was formulated by Crowley is a path of spiritual development based on seeking and putting into practice one’s True Will, or destiny,[8] the soul’s Will rather than the ego’s desires.[9]”
Some commentary in a christian context:
“The word θέλημα (thelema) is rare in classical Greek, where it “signifies the appetitive will: desire, sometimes even sexual”,[13] but it is frequent in the Septuagint.[13] Early Christian writings occasionally use the word to refer to the human will,[14] and even the will of God’s opponent, the Devil,[15] but it usually refers to the will of God.[16] One well-known example is in the “Lord’s Prayer” (Matthew 6:10), “Your kingdom come. Your will (Θελημα) be done, On earth as it is in heaven.” It is used later in the same Gospel (26:42), “He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, “My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done.” In his 5th century Sermon on 1 John 7-8, Augustine of Hippo gave an instruction that surprises some,[17] “Love, and do what you will” (Dilige et quod vis fac).[18]”
Aleister Crowley was deep into practicing spiritualism and the occult, but even I was suprised to see the commentary above as it relates to finding ones true destiny.