The ability to earn one’s own salvation is an important distinction in the teachings of the Mormon Church. Using the Book of Mormon passage that a person is saved “by grace after all (he or she) can do” (2 Nephi 25:23), LDS leaders throughout the years have made it abundantly clear that grace only takes a person to the dance, but the onus of one’s salvation is placed on the shoulders of the 14 million members and their good works.
This was made very clear in Seventy Jorge F. Zeballos’s message titled “Attempting the Impossible,” which he delivered during the Fall 2009 General Conference; it is printed in the November 2009 Ensign (pp. 33-34). Let’s provide some of Zeballos’s quotes to show what I mean:
- Quoting 3 Nephi 12:48 (“Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect”), Zeballos said that the Father and Jesus “are the models to be followed by each one of us.” It ought to be pointed out that this passage obviously came from Matt. 5:48;
- Zeballos said, “From a purely human point of view, at first this seems to be an impossible task. However, it begins to appear possible upon understanding that in order to achieve it, we are not alone.” Those he says will help an individual attain this perfection include the Father and Jesus.
- He then quotes D&C 14:7, which says, “And if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.” Zeballos promises that “this divine promise is possible to achieve.”
- Attaining this, he said, is necessary if we hope to “live with our Father and with our families forevermore.” In fact, “should not this promise be the greatest incentive to do the best within our reach and give the best of ourselves in pursuit of what has been promised to us?”
- “These rewards,” he said, “will be for those who nurture faith in Jesus Christ and comply with His will to work, sacrifice, and give all they have received to strengthen and build the kingdom of God.”
- Furthermore, “the fulfillment of the divine promise to have eternal life, to achieve perfection, and to be happy forevermore in the family unit is subject to the sincere demonstration of our faith in Jesus Christ, obedience to the commandments, perseverance, and diligence throughout our lives.”
- Fascinatingly enough, he declares, “The Lord does not expect that we do what we cannot achieve. The command to become perfect, as He is, encourages us to achieve the best of ourselves… (and) to realize our potential as children of God.”
- He adds, “The invitation and challenge to become perfect, to achieve eternal life is for all mankind.”
These quotes are interesting because, after motivating his audience to achieve perfection, Zeballos appears to back off from his hard teaching. This is indicated when he said,
“God will not require more than the best we can give because that would not be just, but neither can He accept less than that because that would not be just either. Therefore, let us always give the best we can in the service of God and our fellowmen…. Let us do the best we can and each day be a little better.”
The “trying your best” idea has been around for a long time, but President Spencer Kimball said this was a weak position. Kimball wrote the following in his 1969 book The Miracle of Forgiveness:
“Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin. To try with a weakness of attitude and effort is to assure failure in the face of Satan’s strong counteracting efforts. What is needed is resolute action” (p. 164).
Kimball then tells a story of a soldier who told his officer that he would “try” to fulfill an order. After he was reprimanded, the soldier told the officer that he would do his “best.” When the officer rejected this as not being good enough, the soldier said that he would “do it or die.” Kimball wrote,
“To this the now irate officer responded: ‘I don’t want you to die, and I don’t want you merely to do the best you can, and I don’t want you to try. Now, the request is a reasonable one; the message is important; the distance is not far; you are able-bodied; you can do what I have ordered. Now get out of here and accomplish your mission’” (p. 164).
To conclusively show that to try one’s best is all that the LDS God requires, Kimball concluded the section this way:
“To ‘try’ is weak. To ‘do the best I can’ is not strong. We must always do better than we can. This is true in every walk of life…. With the inspiration from the Lord we can rise higher than our individual powers, extend far beyond our own personal potential” (p. 165).
Perhaps Zeballos knew that trying is weak, because toward the end of his sermon he appeared to revert back to his original hard-line stance. In the last minute of his sermon, he provided a line from the title of his sermon that made things appear very clear:
“Even when, from a purely human perspective, perfection can appear an impossible challenge to achieve, I testify that our Father and our Savior have made known to us that it is possible to achieve the impossible. Yes, it is possible to achieve eternal life. Yes, it is possible to be happy now and forever” (emphasis mine).
What a confusing message! According to a current LDS general authority who was speaking at a general conference—a place where doctrine can be taught and clarified before the membership—complete obedience is necessary. The only way a person can find happiness is achieving the impossible. Yet can anyone actually achieve what is impossible? Oh, what a hopeless, confusing message that Mormonism offers!
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Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.
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And there you have it. A perfect example of Mormon “doctrine”
Where both sides, though mutually exclusive, are true.
This is why anyone can be a Mormon. Cuz everything that’s false is true, and everything that’s true is false, and everything is taught both ways, so you can pick which way you like it, and be right (and wrong).
But that’s the real clincher. Every Mormon out here is only doing “the best they can”, and really, they’re not even doing that, but only trying to fool themselves and others that they are.
AND YET
That is not OK. It’s just what they’ve chosen to hear.
The truth is that Mormonism expects perfection — and they lead you on down the path to hell by letting you think that “good enough” will do.
Setfree said “The truth is that Mormonism expects perfection”. As does Jesus, per the Matthew quote. Another example where Ev’s simply do not believe the scriptures. Here’s the erroneous MRM concept that can be found on almost every thread on this blog…
“We believe the Bible for what it says, unless it says something we don’t believe”
By the way, Kimball is addressing the topic abandoning sin and becoming perfect as seperate issues, steps in progression if you will. He clearly goes on to delineate COMMISSION of sin and OMISSION of good works…all entirely clear and consistent with Elder Zeballos’ instruction.
Yes sir/ma’am! God/Jesus does expect perfection! So, my question to you, DOTF, is: Are You perfect? I am, because of my standing in Christ. See? I understand the Bible.
How well do you understand it?
Amen Setfree! I’m perfect too! In Christ Alone I am perfect. Thank you Jesus for imparting your righteousness on me!
If you don’t like the following, throw out your Bible.
Romans 4:5-8
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.”
Romans 3:21-26
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom (Jesus) God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Set
It is a circular argument that we always end up with here. Ev’s claim they are perfect through Christ and accuse LDS of not being perfected.
Why? The final accusation on both sides is that the other does not have faith in Christ. Agree?
Your Romans quotes are nice, but they simply underlie the fact that the salvation is contingent (yes, Christians have a contingent gospel). Contingent on what? Faith in Christ. Debating in points of doctrine will not help either of us in the day of judgement and if we are found guilty it will be because one of us lacks faith. Praying for both of us.
By the way…Kimball was right on the mark when he shows the leap between the command to repent and the command for perfection…
Ev’s cannot lay hold on what Faith really is yet they are quick to say I don’t have it.
I have asked dozens of them…”you say I don’t have faith, so how do I get it?” and the reply is to confess that Jesus is the Christ, ask for him to forgive your sins, etc. Of course I reply that I have already done that and they say no you haven’t. I can even bear my testimony right then and there and they say it must not be real.
At least Kimball can tell me that I will know if someone repents because he will confess and forsake his sins. Not so with the EV’s. What kind of sins should I expect or not expcect of a perfected Christian and how long will the Savior allow you to persist in such activity? Forever?
Shall we look at a few things overlooked?
Of course Pres Kimball is correct in saying our best is not good enough. If we try to work on our own we will never do anything good enough for repentance or salvation. But let’s pull apart one of the quotes above –
“To ‘try’ is weak. To ‘do the best I can’ is not strong. We must always do better than we can. This is true in every walk of life…. With the inspiration from the Lord we can rise higher than our individual powers, extend far beyond our own personal potential” (p. 165).
What is this saying? Our best is never enough and we must do better than our best. And how do we achieve better than our best? “With the inspiration from the Lord”. In other words, we must have faith in Jesus and His promise to remove our sins and take us back to live with Heavenly Father. It is only through our faith in Jesus that we can truly overcome sin and become perfect. Yes, I can agree with that. Especially when it says exactly the same thing in the Bible –
Matt 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Then there is the verse which says that we can do all things with/in God (can’t find the ref but I know someone else can point it out).
And finally Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
As for the other quote –
“Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin. To try with a weakness of attitude and effort is to assure failure in the face of Satan’s strong counteracting efforts. What is needed is resolute action” (p. 164).
This is discussing a ‘New Years Resolution’ scenario. Most people break their NYRs because they started half heartedly.
So yes, if we have faith in Jesus we can do more than just attempt the impossible, we can do the impossible.
DF,
To imply that a Christian having “faith” is akin to having to “do” something misses the Gospel message completely. Or, when you receive a Christmas present, do you say you “did” something to earn that? But isn’t a gift something one gives freely, not because he “owes” it to another? Or do you normally take out your wallet upon receiving such a gift and say, “How much do I owe you for that?” Certainly such a question will draw an icy stare and make Emily Post blush.
When you ask “what kind of sins I should expect,” this also misunderstands the gospel message that your Mormonism distorts. When a person has become a “new creation in Christ,” according to 2 Cor. 5:17, the acts of the sinful nature somehow lose their luster as compared to now wanting to be filled with the fruit of the Spirit. Of course, the desire to sin in this life does not go away (see Romans 5 and how Paul struggled to do the things he didn’t want to do). But we must understand that an apple tree bears fruit “because” it is an apple tree, not because it is trying to become one. So too, the Christian who allows the Holy Spirit to fill his or her life will bear fruit, i.e. love, joy, peace, etc. Good works come for true Christians because it is what we were meant to do (Eph. 2:10).
Let’s be honest. You have to admit that this conference speech provides a very confusing message, DF. And the question asked by the Philippian jailer in Acts 16:31 is very telling. Since Paul must have understood LDS doctrine–since your leaders claim it is synonymous with your latter-day teachings–how would you as a Mormon answer the jailer’s question today?
When I was in the church of joseph smith, no matter how hard you tried to be perfect, it still wasn’t good enough, i.e. there was always something else you had to *do*. For instance, the second anointing that only the *very special* lds boys and girls receive. Makes me wonder if there are other anointings in the lds religion that we don’t even know about, but are there to keep the *big* tithe payers feeling special. I have a feeling, that behind closed doors, the lds leaders must laugh so hard at all the hoops its followers try to jump through.
Members of the church of joseph smith love to bear and hear testimonies…so do I…so here’s mine: I wish to bear my testimony that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind and died for all, and imparts His Grace and Love and Gifts to *all*.
Jesus my Lord and Savior didn’t set up any secret societies that only the *very special* (in reality, the big tithe payers) are the only ones allowed to partake of.
Love and Peace to all in the name of the Holy Lamb of God…my Jesus the Christ.
Ralph, have YOU found it possible to be perfect yet?
What, not with all your faith? When will you? How will you? What if you never do?
Let me make this as simple as possible.
Jesus/God expects absolute perfection.
The Mormon church expects absolute perfection.
The difference?
Jesus said “Come to me, and I WILL BE your perfection”
The Mormon church lies and says “just try your hardest”.
SEe the difference now?
(btw, nice weigh-in, EJ. That was a terrific write up)
dotf
nice initial post. thank you for an infusion of clarity amongst the usual sea of garbled “pop” scripture gleanings of the Ev.
setfree
perhaps Philippians 2:1-10 is meaningful here.
I must admit that your declaration of yourself being “perfect”, albeit through Christ’ is quite a bold statement. Again you disregard a notion of any necessary judgement on that day when Jesus opens the Book of Life before you.
maybe you can clarify?
for you see, I suspect you will admit that your perfection has the potential to be downgraded, and as such you must actually “work” to regain this perfection…a sort of endure to the end, right?
with all the loopholes in perfection from the Ev, perhaps we could get a straight answer on what Jesus will judge? after all, just coming to Jesus is what allows to even be judged…….so, will he simply measure just how perfect you were?
and you claim LDS is confusing? please spare the usual Ev doublespeak, the LDS church has a clear message on this topic, even with the attempted Ev twisting, and when one “discerns” that message they know it to be true.
Well as long as the other Christians are declaring themselves perfect, so would I!
OK, I’ll qualify it. I’m a dirty, low down, sinning, scoundrel that deserves all of the wrath that God could level against me. I’ve broken God’s law and have fallen short too often to even count. I sin everyday either through sinful things that I do or through good things that I fail today. I’m a wretched mess and God knows it and I agree with Him regarding my sinful condition!
Do I try not to sin? Yes indeed. Do I succeed? Sometimes I do and sometimes I don’t. Do I try to walk by the Spirit? Yes, moment to moment and that’s why I rejoice in these words found in First John 1:8-10
“If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.”
So how can I a wretched sinner declare myself perfect? It’s because of what God did for me through His Son Jesus Christ. Jesus did for me what I could never do for myself despite any and all personal effort.
There is no add on to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the Cross. The Mormon god insists that the Mormon declare faith in Joseph Smith, the BoM, the LDS church, and the current prophet.
Mormons, did Joseph Smith die for your sins? Did the BoM die for your sins? Did the LDS church die for your sins. Did the current Mormon prophet die for your sins? No, and neither could anyone or anything die for your sins except Jesus.
Jesus was the perfect sacrifice because He is the physical manifestation of the invisible God. Jesus is perfect. He didn’t become perfect. He’s God. He died so that when we accept His sacrifice on the Cross we are declared “not guilty”. Jesus said, “It is finished” meaning “The debt is paid.”
Without the free gift of salvation that God offered me through his love and mercy, I’d be totally lost.
Falcon,
You said “There is no add on to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the Cross. The Mormon god insists that the Mormon declare faith in Joseph Smith, the BoM, the LDS church, and the current prophet.”
Does this also mean that you do not need to believe in the Bible, nor Moses, nor Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Peter, Paul, etc? If so, then how do you know about Heavenly Father and Jesus? How do you know you are in the right path and doing the right things?
Setfree,
If I have a true faith in Jesus and through that faith do what Jesus has asked me to, then on the Day of Judgment I will stand before Heavenly Father and I will be determined to be perfect then and there – that is what the final judgment is all about.
That’s right Ralph! I think we’re communicating. We’re talking about salvation here. First Corinthians 1:11-13
“Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, ‘I am of Paul,; and ‘I of Apollos,’ and ‘I of Cephas,’ and ‘I of Christ’. Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
Acts 16:30-31
“…and after he had brought them out, he said “Sirs, what must I do to be saved? “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household.”
No add ons Ralph. It’s all about Jesus. It’s “faith in Jesus PLUS nothing”.
Now as a Mormon you are in a different program. In order to become a god you have to believe in Joseph Smith, the BoM, the LDS church, and the current prophet. And in addition you have to pay an entry fee of 10% of your gross income to get a temple recommend so you can do more work to become a god. That’s Mormonism Ralph.
The Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is that God offers us the free gift of eternal life through faith in and acceptance of Christ’s finished work on the cross.
So I guess you understand this Gospel now. Will you accept this free gift that God is offering you? You won’t become a god, but you’re not going to become one anyway.
Depends on who your Jesus is, Ralph. If your Jesus is the creation of Joseph Smith, then you will be in big trouble.
All,
Not knowing a better place to put this, i’ll put it here. It’s an article just written by Ed Decker (co-writer of “God Makers”) called “The Achilles’ Heel of Mormonism”. Take a look!
http://eddeckersblog.blogspot.com/
Setfree,
Was there supposed to be something unique or original in old Ed’s article? I couldn’t find it.
Ed is one of those guys who was excommunicated for having sex with people other than his wife and then spends the rest of his life trying to justify himself by fighting against the church. In all honesty, his thoughts are hardly worth responding to- he has been discredited so thoroughly by people within the community of LDS critics not to mention LDS. We are all free to follow whom we choose. I ain’t followin’ Ed.
[For Ed Decker’s response to this unsubstantiated remark, please see his comment below. – Mod]
was slander necessary Olsen? did anyone suggest to you that you ‘follow’ Ed Decker?
This theme is so overdone by LDS critics, I think there is hardly an original thought left on this topic.
The gospel of being saved by grace alone is the socialist version of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Why do something yourself when you can get somebody else to do it for you. Why exert effort in achieving anything when you can bribe the Chairman of the Party to hand it to you under the table. Why work hard in school if you can pull strings and get a diploma on the side with no effort.
Underlying this philosophy is a vacuum wherein there are no answers to basic questions. What is the purpose of life if our behavior is of no consequence? Why did God not just create some people to go to hell and others to go to heaven and sing in his choir for eternity if that is what he wants?
Underlying this philosophy is a complete disregard for Christ’s suffering. Christ suffered for our sins. The more I sin personally, the more I contribute to His suffering and pain. And by teaching that we do not desperately need to repent and change our ways to please God, you deny the relationship between our behavior and the suffering of Christ. You want to believe you are honoring Him, but you minimize His suffering and our own ability to do for ourselves what we can.
Of course we cannot save ourselves, but we are expected to do the best we can to change ourselves. After getting his car stuck in the ditch, God is more likely to help the man who gets out and tries to push than the man who sits and prays.
Olsen,
So does committing adultery blind you to God’s grace and mercy? Does committing adultery put you outside the scope of the atonement? Can someone not recognize the Gospel if they’ve committed adultery? You said he was excommunicated for cheating on his spouse so does that mean he has no hope?
Well let’s see what the Bible says. Any Mormon here interested in what the Bible has to say?
Romans 5:18-19
“So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.”
Romans 6:1-2
“What shall we say then? are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?”
Mormonism is not Christianity. It is a fraudulent cult built on a foundation of lies and deceit. The whole point of the counterfeit is to seduce folks into rejecting God, Jesus, the Bible and God’s plan of salvation through faith in Christ’s finished work on the Cross. Facing the truth and having to confront the lies of Mormonism is very difficult for the true believer. But they can’t resist being here.
A tactic of Mormonism is to go after anyone in a personal manner, who disagrees with the false restored gospel. Whatever it takes, but slander is a favorite technique. Andy Watson was telling me of some of the personal attacks he’s faced from Mormons. There are some very nasty people in this cult. Scientology uses the same tactics.
Olsen, you said “This theme is so overdone by LDS critics, I think there is hardly an original thought left on this topic.”
Self centered are we? Do you not know that newer and newer people visit this blog for the first time every day/week/month? LDS, Evangelical, and all walks of faith alike with questions are able to hear opinions and discussion on topics exactly like this one. It may be the clincher for their decision on which faith to follow through reading peoples opinions on here.
So what am I saying Olsen? How about you bite your tongue and use that mouth of yours to defend your faith instead of being critical of others with your ad-hominem attacks. And if you don’t like the “same old topics”, then you can not type http://www.mrm.org in your web browser.. just a tip.
Good show jeffrey b,
Being aware of who the reader is at MC leads us to repeat certain themes. The point is to get that new reader to become curious and begin a serious study of Mormonism. That’s why I’ll make outrageous statements in order to provoke the novice into searching for answers. With rare exception, the Mormons who post here are merely foils for me to spin-off of. The Christian posters are knowledgeable folks whose posts are really enjoyable to read. With an exception here and there, the Mormon posters just embarrass themselves on a daily basis and would cause the average Mormon to ask, “Is that the best we have to offer?” They serve our purpose however in exposing a cult form of thinking that’s pretty obvious. The funny thing is they’re hooked on this site. They can’t stay away.
The basic questions that need to be answered is “Who is God?”, “Who is man?”, “What is man’s position before God?” and “What is the message of the Cross?” It is my belief that if a person doesn’t have a clear understanding of his hopeless situation, conversion will not be forth coming.
The Bible is clear that we are sinners by nature. Paul writes in Romans 5:18-19 that we have a sin nature that was imputed to us by Adam’s sin. Like nature begets like nature. It’s a fact we can’t avoid. We are sold into sin. Romans 7:15-25 demonstrates the frustration of the sinner. Paul concludes, “Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?”
I know I have one of those body’s of death. I can’t escape it. It’s who I am at my core. It’s more than a family trait or something I learned by a bad example. It’s my nature and sinning comes natural to me because of it. I’m stuck with it! What can I do? My natural condition separates me from a Holy God and holds me in bondage. There has to be a solution. Yes there is and it’s offered by a God who extends His mercy and love to one like me who doesn’t deserve it.
“For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.” (Romans 5:17-18)
There is a new reality living in this body of sin and death. That is, having received the gift of eternal life offered to me through God’s grace I now walk in a newness of life and not the oldness of death. Jesus, through the shed blood of the Cross was, being God, the perfect sacrifice for sin. Having received this gift of eternal life through faith, I now walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh.
Praise God for all He has done in reconciling me to Himself in Christ.
Somehow Mormons interpret τελειος in Matt 5:48 to mean, “therefore achieve sinlessness in this lifetime in order to achieve the highest level of heaven”. Yeah Jesus meant that.
I do not believe it is any stretch that conversion is the central message of Jesus’s life…now is this message synonymous with feeling of “hopelessness”? is coming to the Gospel dependant of one being in a state of despair? not exclusively, in my opinion.
A type of spiritual “death and rebirth” occurs for conversion. This death reaction is not out of fear, not out of hopelessness, but rather out of Awe and Reverence. Just because a radical action is involved, does not mean it has to be spawned from misery. As one considers these perspectives it becomes clear, as a state of reference, what motives may be revealed….would someone disregard a conversion unless it was steeped in misery? what would be the inclination of someone who would ‘want’ another to become despondent as a qualification?
The notion that we will be condemned for another man’s sin (Adam) is unfounded and speculative….scriptually illogical and fundamentally nonsenical.
The actual “tactic” of many Mormons posting here, is not to attack…for this is not our board.
We are simply “responding”. We have recognized the need to correct the mistaken and clarify the obscured. Any perceived “attack” simply exposes the motive of the Ev ego…and this ego is mighty and controlling of the typical Ev.
For the Mormon is also bound to share the true Gospel and through love point out apostate messages and influence.
So, on this board it would seem that personal witness and anecdotal evidence falls short, because of this format. The “debate” between Ev and LDS should be framed around doctrine, both common and varied. For it is only by this that another can honestly judge and discern who is true and righteous…anything else is flash i nthe pan influence and does an injustice to all.
The gospel of being saved by grace alone is the socialist version of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Why do something yourself when you can get somebody else to do it for you. Why exert effort in achieving anything when you can bribe the Chairman of the Party to hand it to you under the table. Why work hard in school if you can pull strings and get a diploma on the side with no effort.
Underlying this philosophy is a vacuum wherein there are no answers to basic questions. What is the purpose of life if our behavior is of no consequence? Why did God not just create some people to go to hell and others to go to heaven and sing in his choir for eternity if that is what he wants?
Underlying this philosophy is a complete disregard for Christ’s suffering. Christ suffered for our sins. The more I sin personally, the more I contribute to His suffering and pain. And by teaching that we do not desperately need to repent and change our ways to please God, you deny the relationship between our behavior and the suffering of Christ. You want to believe you are honoring Him, but you minimize His suffering and our own ability to do for ourselves what we can.
Of course we cannot save ourselves, but we are expected to do the best we can to change ourselves. After getting his car stuck in the ditch, God is more likely to help the man who gets out and tries to push than the man who sits and prays.
I see you’ve doubled up here, OJ, so you must not think you’ve gotten an answer.
The Bible says that when Paul the Apostle preached the gospel of Grace, he did so in such a way that he was accused of preaching license to sin.
I was going to quote some Romans to you, but that won’t help, will it? You don’t care what the Bible says (unless it’s a verse that sounds Mormonic). It’s actually the Bible that you are in rebellion against with your above comment.
The Bible says salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone.
The Bible has all of the answers to life’s basic questions. We’re here for God’s pleasure; He wants us to enjoy Him. It’s not supposed to be about all of US, individually, little demigods. It’s about Him. He’s big enough to completely be everything we have and will ever desire.
Disregard for Christ’s suffering? Y’all are the ones who shun the cross. We know what happened there, because the Bible teaches it. The Bible says Jesus suffered to make our being close to God possible.
We cannot save nor change ourselves. The Bible says when we come to Jesus, He makes us a NEW CREATION.
Those are (my version) of the Bible answers. Rebel against the Bible if you like, but admit to yourself that you are doing it.
Mormons really want to be involved in their own salvation. Which is OK within the context of their striving to become gods. Mormonism has no place within the Biblical message of salvation.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God not as a result of works that no one should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Now the Mormon’s belief that he’s going to become a god requires lots of doing. So the Biblical message of One God, eternal, never changing; reaching out to sinners with the free gift of eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ has no application in Mormonism.
As Christians we understand the Mormon gospel, and reject it. Mormons, as demonstrated here over and over again, don’t understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ because they are operating in an entirely foreign context as far as the Bible is concerned.
There isn’t a Christian that I’ve, seen, heard or read from the first century until today that teaches that once having received Christ as Savior, a person can sin with impunity. However Mormons repeat this idea because it serves their purpose and fits with the Mormon talking points.
We are saved “for” good works, not “by” good works.
If I were teaching a group of students this Biblical concept, I’d have to put the Mormons in the slow group. No matter how many times the Biblical teaching of salvation by grace through faith and living a transformed life in gratitude to God for what he’s done for us is presented, Mormons don’t get it. They just repeat the same Mormon mantras they’ve learned down at the wards.
Justification does not mean to be acquitted. It does not mean to be pardoned. It means to be paroled, that is, to set a guilty person free.
“By justification we mean that judicial act of God which, on account of Christ, to whom the sinner is united by faith, He declares that sinner to be no longer exposed to the penalty of the law, but restored to His favor.” (A. Strong, Systematic Theology, p 849)
My go to guy Andy Watson was telling me that Adolf Hitler has had all of the Mormon temple work done for him, I believe it was in England somewhere.
Isn’t that an interesting fun fact? Ponder that for a moment. Mormons make the fraudulent claim that Christianity teaches that if you believe Jesus is the Christ you can sin all you want because you’re under grace. Little do they recognize that the devil believes that Jesus is the Son of God and I think we could all agree that Satan isn’t saved based on his acknowledgment that Jesus is God.
But in the Mormon system, a person can sin all they want but they’ll still get to hang around some level of Mormon heaven. Maybe they won’t get to become a god, that is unless you’re Adolf Hitler and you’ve had all of the temple work done for you and like Hitler, a person could at least move up the Mormon ladder of Celestial reward.
That’s why that if in the Mormon system, a guy isn’t really a go getter, he might not become a god but settling for a lower level reward might not be all that bad, especially since a Mormon never knows for sure were he sits in regards to the god maker program.
Eric said: “To imply that a Christian having “faith” is akin to having to “do” something misses the Gospel message completely”
Eric, when you look at another Christian what do you expect to see in their life? Should they BE something or not? And I am curious how you explain Matt 17:20
Eric to answer you other question
…”how would you as a Mormon answer the jailer’s question today?”
I imagine my leaders would say something like, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Acts 2:38
Of course action is required, no action: no Holy Ghost. I don’t know how more plain that can be.
The Mormon Miracle Pageant actually uses the Bible passage about the man on the cross, dying, next to Jesus, as an example of how Christianity is wrong.
How could that man be forgiven, seeing as how he never got down off the cross and went and got baptized and confirmed?
For that matter, how ever notice how Alma (coincidentally like Saul/Paul) got “the Holy ghost”
BEFORE He got baptized by water.
So weird…
Jeffrey,
You said to Olson, “use that mouth of yours to defend your faith instead of being critical of others ”
To be fair, wouldn’t you say that the majority of threads on this blog are directed at criticism of LDS leaders?
I would agree with the spirit of the comment that true disciples rarely find the need to criticize, but only to declare…which leaves me wary of this entire blog.
Falcon,
Who/Who is not worthy of hearing the good news? Just curious which historical figures you would refuse to preach to?
Setfree,
In reality, most LDS people/program/presentations have no interest in trying to prove Chrisitanity wrong. True messengers rarely attack, only proclaim…something totally foreign to Christianity since St.Augustine.
Our message is sufficient on its own merits. Sorry you don’t understand concepts of paradise, gift of Holy Ghost vs. power of Holy Ghost, etc.
Has anyone else here every played with a Ouija board or with spiritism? When I was younger I did a lot of dabbling in the occult. Often times a question would be asked of the spirit, and a strikingly true answer would be given, but when asked again another answer would be given, leaving doubt as to whether or not you were actually in contact with a spiritual being. This is the manner of demonic deception. I hope I don’t come off as a crank, but I have been struggling with the muddled reasoning of LDS posters. I couldn’t quite put my finger on what was bothering me until this morning. But I have concluded that we are seeing active demonic deception at work.
LDS make reference to the Ev ego, calling the doctrine of God’s sovereignty and grace prideful and bigoted, as if the Ev prides himself on the work God has done in them, while the Mormon is gracious for the merits they are earning from God. So God’s grace is a doctrine of pride, while the doctrine of works and merit is modesty. That’s an intellectual and spiritual deception and a disconnect from rational thought.
A few continually make comments that they are giving the gospel in love, while we Ev’s are attacking and being destructive. Another intellectual and spiritual deception and a disconnect from reality.
In Sub’s last post he stated that the debate should be centered around doctrine, both common and varied, for it is only through this that we can discern who is true and righteous. At other times he has stated that doctrine, reason, and even proper biblical hermeneutics are foolish because he is able to discern by the “spirit”.
Yesterdy DOTF admitted that biblicl exegeses is useless and that we learn about God by continually going through the temple and learning new truths as they are revealed to us. This seems to be a common theme among LDS posters.
Yet, Ralph posts lists of scripture as if they are authoritative.
Falcon said his whole purpose behind his postings are to help others
“become curious and begin a serious study of Mormonism.”
Sure let’s forget all that Biblical foolishness like “ask and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be opened up to you…” Falcon would have everyone turn to their own wisdom… no need to consult the Lord with the matter. This is called “the precepts of men” and again shows the complete disregard and unbelief in Biblical teachings.
This is the disconnect of Mormon thought and life.
I know several smithians who sit at work wearing their temple garments while they spit tobacco juice into a cup. Disconnect: I’m worthy, I go to the temple, and I chew tobacco, cuss, and drink alcohol.
If a smithian went into a grocery store to buy a pack of gum and at the register was told, “That’s $17.00, please.” They would reply, “The price tag says, $1.29” They wouldn’t accept the reply, “I just changed the price to $17.00.” That’s irrational, the world doesn’t work that way and they know it, but they refuse to see the changing doctrines of their church as irrational.
I work with smithians every day who make good, sound, rational decisions based upon established legal statutes. If they brought a guy to court for speeding and the judge said, “Speeding isn’t a crime anymore.” They wouldn’t say, “Okay, you’re the judge.” They would pull out the legal code and defend their arrest. This is because they trust the criminal justice system, abide by law and procedure, and use it as the standard by which they make decisions. But these same people sit in a church where doctrine has changed, and continues to change, and they don’t question why.
So their religious life is totally disconnected from their secular life. Contradiction is okay within the confines of the church, in fact, the slippery nature of the mormon god is supposedley one of his strong points.
Is there any greater evidence of demonic spiritual deception than the disconnect between reality and mormon thought?
Now let me have it as an attacker. I’m ready for it.
“The notion that we will be condemned for another man’s sin (Adam) is unfounded and speculative….scriptually illogical and fundamentally nonsenical.”
Sure it is. That is why the apostle Paul, wrote in Romans 5:12 “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned”.
The idea that another man’s trangression can affect us is as far-fetched as the idea that another man’s sacrifice can affect us.
It was said:
Ed is one of those guys who was excommunicated for having sex with people other than his wife…”
Yet smithians will follow smith who did the same thing….
He was so shallow about all this, he did it in secret… then came up with a phony ‘revelation’ to justify it. The ‘revelation’ itself says this:
1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many awives and bconcubines—
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
3 Therefore, aprepare thy heart to receive and bobey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them MUST OBEY THE SAME.
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting acovenant; and IF YE ABIDE NOT THAT COVENANT, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
But it is ok to follow this guy into hell and practice polygamy (which is against the law of the land – which smith got ‘revelations’ about NOT breaking)… so he could have sex with teenage girls…. and break his vows to his wife…
Then comes the ultimatum by the US Government – stop the practice or else… and by golly we have a ‘new’ revelation stopping an ‘eternal commandment’ of their god that those who have this preached to them MUST practice it…
They could have moved out of the US, but they did not – why? It was more convenient to cave… is this ‘doing all you can?’ What hypocrisy!
Yeah, there are no double standards here…
A statement(see above) from Elder Zeballos’s
message where he said, “…fullfillment of the
divine promise to have eternal life, to achieve
perfection,and to be happy forevermore in the
family unit IS SUBJECT TO the sincere demonstra-
tion of our faith in Jesus Christ,OBEDIENCE TO
THE COMMANDMENTS, perserverance and diligence
through our lives…” (Caps are mine ).
Question for our LDS guests: What are the
commandments here that Elder Zeballos refers
too?
Ed Decker from http://eddeckersblog.blogspot.com/
I took a look at Ed Decker at http://eddeckersblog.blogspot.com/, following setfree’s suggestion.
OJ earlier responded
OJ,
You believe in the Mormon program. You would not be pushing the Mormon agenda of “faith plus works” if you didn’t.
If what you say about Ed Decker is true (and I’m not suggesting it’s not), then Ed Decker is living proof that your program does not work; it does not deliver.
Ed Decker was a true believing Mormon for 50 years, and yet, it seems, that was not enough to save him from the sin of adultery.
Jesus saves us from our sins (Matt 1:21). Your precious works don’t.
The Gospel of grace isn’t about people not wanting to leave their sin, its about people not being able to. The Gospel of Grace does not say that it is undesirable to leave your sins; it says that it is impossible.
I’ll let Paul continue here…
(Romans 7:21-25)
Don’t you get it? Salvation from sin is not through a program of works; it is through Jesus Christ.
grindael, thanks for coming back around to that… i was hoping someone would (JS’s sex w/ other mens’ wives, and who we should follow, lol)
Mike R. exactly.
You tell a Mormon
“But trying isn’t good enough! Your religion says that!”
and they reply
“You guys don’t think you should have to try”
so you say
“But trying isn’t good enough! Your religion says that!”
and they reply
“I’m doing the best I can”
so you say
“But trying isn’t good enough! Your religion says that!”
and they reply
“Who are you to judge me?”
so you say
“But trying isn’t good enough! Your religion says that!”
and they reply
“The gospel is communist. You guys just want something for nothing”
so you say
“But trying isn’t good enough! Your religion says that!”
and they reply
“Paul was the first apostate. Faith without works is dead”
so you say
“But trying isn’t good enough! Your religion says that!”
and they reply
“You guys are full of faults, and here you are accusing us”
…
Is there one LDS out there who can live up to the covenants they make? SERIOUSLY?
and they reply…
I find it rather common that whenever my name pops up on a Mormon/posting blog, my personal character is almost always attacked with information that is false, always has been false.
But because it is faith building and makes the Mormon feel good about himself and the church somehow [in spite of the founding prophet having bedded more women than Tiger every dreamed of….]
A true record of my excommunication papers is found at http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/ed-leaves-church.htm
Now, while I expect that to the Mormon, that wwill make no difference, but to the non Mormon viewing these lies, it should tell a story that when the Mormons cannot defend a theological position, it is comfortably Ok with them to lie and slander the one with opposite ppint.
The Achilles Heel of Mormonism is just that. You can’t have the veil and the Cross. One is a lie and the other the truth.
Actually answer the charge. Or just go onbeing the liars.
I do answer all emails and I am not bitter, lived the commandments and left the church in good standing.
So I was chatting with Andy Watson today about the “Mormon Slacker”. I should let Andy tell the story but I’ll give the highlights. Andy’s Mormon slacker friend has been in the church all of his life and he’s sixty years old. He doesn’t have a clue about Mormonism and can’t answer any of Andy’s routine questions. But he’s knowledgeable enough about Mormonism to tell Andy, “I’ll do all of the work in the next life.” He told Andy if he really wanted answers to his questions he should really ask the Mormons sitting “over there”. Well over there were a bunch of Mormons sitting at a table drinking coffee and chatting the day away. I guess they’re planning on doing the work in the next life too!
The Bible tells us that it is appointed once for man to die and then the judgment. There are no fleet rates or second chances. God calls all men to repentance and although it is true that Jesus died for everyone, His shed blood is only effective for those who have accepted, through faith, God’s free gift of salvation. The doing that we Christians do after having repented and come to Christ in faith is a result of Jesus living in us. In terms of salvation, our works are nothing but dirty rags. But in terms of our testimony, our works points people to the mercy, love and grace of God. Everything points to Jesus, even our works. Our works are to glorify Him.
In Mormonism, works are to glorify the individual who mistakenly thinks his works will made him a god. What a prideful bunch of fools.
Just curious: Is it a requirement for all EV’s to have been involved in the occult, drugs, alcohol, illegitamacy, etc. before and/or in preparation to become a Christian?
Falcon said
“His shed blood is only effective for those who have accepted, through faith, God’s free gift of salvation”
Amen and Amen. “ACCEPTED” and “FAITH”: words we will never agree on what they really mean.
Falcon says….Everything points to Jesus, even our works
Question: What if your works include adultery, covetousness, pride….do those works also point to Christ?
Once again we see the bottom line from our LDS friends “nice try Christ” but we ….
liv4jc notes in his posts above: “This is the manner of demonic deception” and “active demonic deception at work”
John 8:32 teaches:“. . . ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
Free from what? Free from the bondage of Satan’s religious deception.
The bible punches us in the face with warnings:
“It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.” Psalms 118:8 ,Jer.17:5 2Chr.32.8 and on and on.
Mormonism reminds me of the fat stepsisters in Cinderella trying to force their fat feet into a tiny glass slipper that will never fit.
When they start preachin’ the Bible I’m always reminded of a line from St. Augustin about “when a poisonous draught is drunk out of a precious goblet.”
DotF
You must have missed the briefing
Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.