What is the function of good works at final judgment for the forgiven?

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22 Responses to What is the function of good works at final judgment for the forgiven?

  1. iamse7en says:

    “When I put my faith in Christ, I believe that all my sins were forgiven, were covered by the blood of Jesus Christ: past, present and future.”

    Sounds like the doctrine of the devil. Your future sins are covered by your vocal confession of Christ, at the time you were ‘saved,’ so live on. Eat, drink, and be merry.

    For all the sacrilegious attacks on the Lord’s Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, His doctrine, and His holy prophets, that this site continues to spew out, nothing is more damaging than the preaching of false doctrine.

    Confused man above: “When you put your faith in Christ, I believe that all your sins were forgiven, were covered by the blood of Jesus Christ: past, present and future.”

    Jesus Christ: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

    I think I’ll follow the Savior and His word, which was written, and is written by His Holy Prophets.

    Fools mock, but they shall mourn.

  2. iamem7en, what if a person listened to a presentation on baptism for the dead and then said that Mormons literally baptize cold dead bodies. Wouldn’t that make you wonder if the person was being a selective listener?

    I am bewildered how anyone can say that Piper’s theology implies “eat, drink, and be merry” after listening to the whole video. Did you listen to the parts of the video that spoke of the evidentiary value of works at final judgment (cf. 2m35s)? Is the “eat, drink, and be merry” issue your genuine theological concern with the video’s message or is this the knee-jerk reaction consisting of Mormon stereotypes of traditional evangelical theology?

    Take care,


  3. S.Faux says:

    Based upon LDS scripture, here is my conception of what will happen on the Day of Judgment:

    D&C 45: 3-5
    “3 Listen to him [Jesus] who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him–
    4 Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;
    5 Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.”

    Notice that Jesus is not only the defense attorney but he is also the foundation of the defense. Grace is found only in Jesus. In fact, our good works are efficacious only by virtue of the grace of Christ. See also: 2 Nephi 2:8; Mosiah 13:28

    Consequently, I wonder if the Mormon conception of salvation is being misrepresented here on “Mormon Coffee.” I think so.

  4. iamse7en,

    Again, somehow τελειος became,”therefore achieve sinlessness in this lifetime in order to achieve the highest level of heaven.” Nowhere is there any mention of what does, or does not, happen if one is not completely whole/perfect/complete – τελειος – upon death. Do be sinless, but what happens if complete sinlessness is not achieved?

    Romans 8:38&39, “For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

  5. Free says:

    iamse7en wrote: “I think I’ll follow the Savior and His word, which was written, and is written by His Holy Prophets.”

    Following the Savior and His Word is a great idea, but to see you write about continuing to follow prophets which in your case are the prophets of mormonism is not the same thing.

    Do you really mean that you’ll continue to follow the prophets of mormonism that wrote that our brother and sisters in this world with darker skin have that skin color because they were less valiant in the pre-existence, and that they are a loathsome race (B. Young & co.)…that the only saints to achieve celestial glory are those that enter into polygamy (B. Young and co.), and that people live on the moon and the sun (J. Smith, B. Young, and co.).

    Read the history of your church and your churches journal of discourses. I pray (i really do) that you will escape from the choke hold that mormonism truly is.

    Merry Christmas and much love and prayers to you all.

  6. falcon says:

    You know, I must admit that this gets a little tedious after a while. It is in the best interest of Mormons if they can convince themselves that a) the Bible is error filled, b) there are many gods not just One, eternal, everlasting, never changing God, and c)that Christians believe that they can sin with impunity once they confess faith in Jesus Christ.
    In regards to “c”, are Mormons really that vapid that they can’t understand the concept of being “born again” and what the results of spiritual regeneration are in the life of the believer? I would say that the “eat, drink and be merry” crowd would be housed within Mormon teaching. After all, as believers in universal salvation, they give everyone a pass in regards to behavior and also promote a second chance doctrine. Even Hitler has had the “work” done for him in the London Mormon temple.
    I get bumped further over towards the Calvinist camp every time I read these Mormon posts. There is a spiritual blindness that defies description.

  7. bfwjr says:

    Merry Christmas to all
    Falcon, it’s hard BIC LDS believers to reject Mormonism, they would be rejecting royalty. You are told from a young age that you kept your first estate and that is why you were born into Mormonism. Your special. Who doesn’t want to believe that?
    Note of appreciation to you and lv4jc for the posts on the last topic, outstanding work. I flipped on the TV after reading them and Issac Newton was quoted on the same:“A few scattered persons which God has chosen can set themselves sincerely and honestly to search at the truth.” Newton was a lover of God’s word it was said of him ” he knew the bible better than the Pope”. He lived 100 yrs. after Calvin.

  8. mobaby says:

    The Biblical doctrine of forgiveness through the blood of Christ is the message of the entire Bible. From the first sacrifice, to the final, all-encompassing sacrifice that the Lord Jesus Christ gave at calvary for the forgiveness of sins – this is the story of God’s redemption of His people. And what a beautiful story it is, God coming to earth and giving His life on the cross so that we might live. It is the most awesome thing I know of – I know of no other religious narrative that comes even close. Golden plates and temple rituals pale when compared to the crucified Lord – giving His life for despicable sinners. Redeeming us and giving us new hearts that love Him. A Christians perfection does not come from within – it comes from our Holy Savior. He alone is worthy, and He graciously credits us with His perfection. Lord, have mercy on us sinners.

  9. subgenius says:

    “is this the knee-jerk reaction consisting of Mormon stereotypes of traditional evangelical theology?
    not all stereotypes are necessarily wrong.
    and the notion of a “vocal confession” covering future sins is definitely false doctrine and did not the Ev discount the power of vocal confessions when tithing settlements were discussed?

    interesting how arriving at the judgement without guilt is considered as “perfect” and this perfection is acquired only through prayer.
    Then as he uses the words “deeds” and “evidence” in place of “work”..almost intentionally.
    Then the dramatic “Fonzie jumps the shark” moment, when the filing cabinet is knocked over by He who actually sits in judgement….even a small chuckle is heard as he admits “i think” that is how it will happen.
    a few gems are in this hyperbole starting with the hesitant initial searching for an answer to the quick-non-logical-conclusion ending, and to reiterate
    He “jumped the shark” on this one.

    tiresome and boring is reading the same insults time and time again. But if this all so tedious maybe you should venture into something more conducive to your abilities.
    As for Hitler (geez), this only gives him a chance for salvation, a chance to repent, a chance -as you say- to be born again, he can still choose otherwise. But i forget that your newly acquired Calvinism may have already “determined” that Hitler has been chosen to be saved, unless of course you assume to know the mind of God and can absolutely state the contrary.

    if you bother to read a little history you will quickly see that many churches, nations, and men had racist policies, and many based on an erroneous assumption about mark of Cain or other such nonsense. To assume any organization of man, regardless of its guiding principles, is infallible is just naive at this point.

  10. liv4jc says:

    Ahhhh, Sub, but our religious leaders were wrong, and we can admit that. Your leaders are prophets and apostles of God, speaking infallible truth. Don’t you believe they have spoken only truth? If not, which parts are true and which aren’t? Surely you can’t judge that. I’ll bet if you asked them they would stand behind every statement they made as being the word of God given for you. Don’t denigrate your prophets and apostles, Sub, you may wind up living on one of their planets some day.

    A vocal confession is not necessary Sub, there are many hidden sins and sins of omission that I commit on a daily basis. I confess the ones the Holy Spirit lays on my heart. Like speaking to you so harshly at times. I really should be praying for you. Pastor John MacArthur gave an interesting analogy about giving people in false religion the truth. When you are trying to rescue someone from a burning car you don’t ask them to please take off their seatbelt and open the door, you rip them out through the window if you have to. I would add, “and worry about the cuts and bruises later.”

    Bfwjr, thank you for the compliment, but I wish I could express the truth in a more loving manner. I have too little patience, as is plain for all to see.

    iam7en, how’s this for a doctrine of the devil: Free agency was given to us by our fall. It is the greatest gift. Our fall was caused by Satan enticing Adam and Eve into breaking God’s commandment by calling God a liar. This was a good thing, and by doing so Satan acutally caused us to fall up. Satan was actually implementing Jehovah’s plan (that was Jesus’ name in the pre-existence) to give us all free agency to choose or reject Jesus’ gift. It resulted in murder, adultery, lying, disease, physical and spiritual death, and a bunch of other horrible stuff. But if we use our free agency to believe in Jesus and follow all of his commandments, then we can be gods, too, and start our own planet where the whole thing will happen again.

  11. FIGJAM says:

    Don’t forget, as “Bring-em Young” said, you cannot enter exaltation without first believing in Joseph Smith. HA! I baked some sugar and indoctrination cookies for Christmas. They are shaped in the likeness of the planet KOLOB. Merry Christmas everyone – well those who believe in the BIBLICAL and ONE AND ONLY CHRIST!

  12. S Faux wrote

    Based upon LDS scripture, here is my conception of what will happen on the Day of Judgment:…Notice that Jesus is not only the defense attorney but he is also the foundation of the defense. Grace is found only in Jesus. In fact, our good works are efficacious only by virtue of the grace of Christ. See also: 2 Nephi 2:8; Mosiah 13:28

    S Faux,

    I have not noticed you here before, so if you are a newcomer, welcome and Happy Christmas.

    If what you had noted above was the end of the story, we’d be in danger of quibbling over detail. The problem is that it’s not. When I read your BoM quotes, my reaction is that this is Joseph Smith in his post-Christian days, before he got into the polygamy and polytheism of D&C 132, Book of Abraham and the like.

    It is also part of the “preparatory Gospel”, which is markedly different from the “full Gospel”. As we’ve discussed here before, the purpose of the “preparatory Gospel” is to get people to mistake Mormonism for Christianity; and only when they are signed up, drip feed them the “full Gospel”, but only in small doses so they don’t bolt.

    So, it does not surprise me at all to see Christianisms repeated in the BoM, and upheld by rank-and-file Mormons.

    The question is whether this “preparatory Gospel” meant anything at all to Joseph Smith and his followers. It appears that it didn’t, else they would have not signed themselves up for the full blown paganism of the “full Gospel” at a later stage in their “spiritual” careers.

  13. Mike R says:

    It’s 6am here. need to go help my brother “take
    care of” the turkeys he raised for Christmas
    dinner. I just wanted to wish my Christian
    brothers and sisters a Merry Christmas:

    Mobay,Liv4jc,Set Free,Falcon,Grindael,Andy,Bfwjr,
    Figjam,David W.,Jack G.,Martin,Gundeck,Eric,
    rvales , and especially Bill,Aaron, and Sharon.

    To our Mormon guests: May this Christmas be the start of your experiencing the greatest miracle
    in your personal life; that of turning your life
    over to the Lord Jesus Christ relying on His
    righteousness alone to make you worthy to be
    with the Father in heaven.

    2 Cor 9:15

  14. Merry Christmas to those where it is already Christmas!

  15. falcon says:

    When I became a Christian in my mid-twenties it took me some time before I internalized the Good News that “Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.” (Romans 8:1-2)
    You see I was raised Catholic and I was always in conflict with the law. I could never get myself right no matter how hard I tried. I’d run off to confession, confess, say my act of contrition, get absolution, do my penance and for a time would get some emotional relief from the guilt of having had sinned.
    But of course that didn’t last long because inevitably, I’d sin again and be right back where I was before. I was like the little gerbil running on his circular treadmill. When I was twenty, a college sophomore, I jumped off the gerbil wheel and became, for lack of a better word, an atheist. What joy I had in my guilt free pagan life. I was free from the impossible system of religion that enslaved me.
    Funny thing happened though. About six years later I got this intense spiritual longing that sent me on a (spiritual) quest. Without going into detail, after a year of a tug of war between God and the devil, God, through his love, mercy and grace, pulled me over the line to Him. It took a while for the Holy Spirit to reprogram my mind and spirit and realize I wasn’t under the tyranny of the law any longer, but I was under grace. What a marvelous freedom. Not freedom to sin, but freedom from sin and the death penalty that had been previously hanging over me.
    Jesus freed me from my body of death so I could serve Him in the newness of the Spirit. I knew absolutely zero when I started my walk with Christ. All I knew, at the time, was that in order to obtain the free gift of eternal life that God was offering me, I needed to trust Christ for my salvation. I did and now I can rejoice in the knowledge that Jesus did for me what I could never do for myself no matter how hard I tried.

  16. Ward says:

    Merry and Happy Christmas to all of you. I haven’t been posting much, but read regularly as always. It has been almost a year since I started lurking and then posting. I would characterize my posts as small potatoes compared the the heavy lifting of others like Falcon, Andy, and the MRM gang. But, I really have enjoyed all the give and take. I hope each of you reading this can have a meaningful and joyful pause tonight and Friday to wonder and ponder this celebration of the miracle of Jesus’ birth.

  17. S.Faux says:


    Thanks for reacting to my comment. True, I rarely give responses on “Mormon Coffee,” but I have done so before.

    Respectfully, I reject your distinction between “preparatory” and “full” Mormon gospel. The verses that I quoted related to grace are prime examples of the full gospel, undiluted.

    Mormons believe in being “new creatures” under God (Mosiah 27:25-26). We believe in a Jesus who enables feeble humans to perform good works. Our strength comes from God and prayer. Faith and works interact. Good works build faith, and faith inspires good works. Thus, faith without works is dead.

    But, any Mormon who studies the scriptures should realize that we need to learn to become completely reliant upon God. ONLY through God and His strength do we make progress, NOT otherwise.

    It is easy to mischaracterize Mormon beliefs, but all that academic exercise accomplishes is misunderstanding

    Are there differences between Mormon and Protestant beliefs? Of course, but (as a lifelong Mormon) I rarely recognize my belief system as it is discussed on this site.

    Having said that, be assured I love my Protestant brothers and sisters. Belief in Christ is a critical and essential ingredient in life, and I feel confident that I believe in the same baby Jesus as everyone else.

    Merry Christmas to all!!

  18. liv4jc says:

    Ess dot Fox, maybe it’s because you have not gone into greater detail, but your idea of Jesus’ advocacy sounds a little too Christian for the LDS who normally post here. You quoted D&C 45, which the revelation heading claims was received March 7, 1831. I think this writing shows that it was Joseph Smith who slid toward apostasy, not the early church. Joseph Smith was exposed to the Christianity of his day, took concepts that he had heard in church services, tent revivals, and in general conversation, and tried to express them as best as he could in his writings as revelations from God. Although obviously confused on some of his theology he was attempting to express Christian thought, and may have eventually done so, had he not become so enamored with himself and his claims to be a prophet of restoration. The inclusion of anachronistic New Testament verses, Greek words, and valid New Testament salvation concepts into the OT time period of the writings of the BoM point to this as being true, and to JS as author. We see the same plagiarism of KJV scripture in the D&C, often wholly out of context and inserted as fluff so the revelation sounds “religious”. My personal belief is that JS thought the BoM was his ticket to wealth. Like all people who believe Christ’s grace alone can’t possibly be enough to save anyone, Joseph Smith quickly abandoned the mediation of Christ on our behalf and instituted a religious system not unlike other works righteousness programs like Roman Catholicism, Islam, etc. Many have tried to do this and exalt themselves as chosen of God and failed. JS just had a platform and willing followers. Had he lived in our time I doubt he would have gotten as far as he did.

  19. falcon says:

    Very good liv4jc,
    I was thinking this very thing as I was driving through the snow, rain and slush with my macho quad cab four wheel drive diesel pick-up. My carbon foot print was fabulous. There was a reason there was a Reorganized Church of Latter Day Saints now known as the Community of Christ and a Mormons sect called the Temple Lot. Does anyone know exactly how many of these “restored” groups there are. All the results of apostasy of one kind or another within Mormonism I suppose. This is not to mention the FLDS who are actually practicing Bringham Young style Mormonism.
    I believe the Temple Lot doesn’t accept anything in Mormon lore after the 1832 Book of Commandments. The Community of Christ allows members to decide for themselves if the BoM is actually history or a “spiritual” book. Like Aaron says, the CoC resembles Methodists with extra scripture. That’s pretty much what Smith started with before he became a Mormon apostate.
    Well none-the-less, the history of the Christian Church is well documented and available for anyone who wants to take the time to do some serious study. There’s no apostasy within the Mystical Body of Christ, but plenty within Mormonism.

  20. S.Faux says:


    Again, respectfully, I reject your implication that D&C 45 is invalid (or weak) because its date is 1831. In LDS culture this section of the D&C is heralded as one of the greatest in this book of scripture, primarily because of its prophecies concerning the Second Coming of Christ.

    It is common among outsiders to regard the Book of Mormon as a plagiarism of the KJV Bible, as your comments suggest. There are, however, legitimate interpretations that are counter to your conclusions. For my humble opinions (or maybe not so humble), see:KJV Bible in the Book of Mormon.

    I agree that Joseph Smith had his flaws, but then so did Moses, Jonah, Peter, and Paul (among many others). Why does God work through flawed men? I think it has something to do with the fact there there is no one else to choose from.

    (I do appreciate your skepticism. Skepticism has a valid place.)

    Best wishes…

  21. liv4jc says:

    Fox, let me explain what I meant: D&C 45:3-5 expresses Christian theology, although not as eloquently, much the same way the bible does in Romans 8:33-34, 1 John 2:1 and Hebrews 7:25. Those who believe on the biblical Jesus Christ receive salvation through Him because of His propitiatory sacrifice on the cross. He now acts as priest (the only one who actually holds the Melchizedek priesthood) interceding for us before the father. This intercession is why there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Read Romans 8:33-34: Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is the one who will condemn? Christ is the one who died (and more than that He was raised), who is at the right hand of God, and who also is interceding for us.

    This was early Smithian thought, it degraded into paganism as time went on as many have documented. Was Christ’s church originally pagan? Also, according to your church, Christ only paid part of the debt for our sins, you must work to make up the rest. You do not know if there is condmemnation for you or not, because you do not know if you will be justified until the day of judgment. So for you, there may be condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, if indeed you are in Christ Jesus, seeing how your church has a heretical view of His person. This is not what D&C 45 teaches.

    Just skimming through D&C 45 I saw allusions to, and passages from Revelation 7 (vs. 1), John 1:11,12 (vs. 8), Matthew 24:3 (vs. 16), Matthew 24:2 (vs. 20), etc. I highly doubt Jesus would speak to JS in the KJV Elizabethan dialect. Allusions to prophecies already in the bible does not a prophet make.

    Take care. Thanks for appreciating my skepticism. Merry Christmas. Do you really like Charles Darwin?

  22. S.Faux says:


    Just a side note: I am a science teacher and a Mormon. I guess that is TWO strikes against me. 😉

    Your seem to think that Mormons think that D&C revelations are word for word out of God’s mouth. The actual LDS view is that revelation comes in many different forms. (Here is another essay I wrote). I will stop providing links, as maybe I am being rude when I do so. I don’t mean to be rude.

    Really, my main point (in accord with the topic of the blog) is that grace is a key concept in Mormonism. To say otherwise is to mischaracterize.

    Thanks for reacting with me. I have enjoyed it.

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