The Law

One significant difference between biblical teaching and Mormonism has to do with the nature of God’s Law. LDS leaders teach that salvation/exaltation is gained through faith plus works. To achieve the celestial kingdom (to spend eternity in the presence of God) one must believe in Christ and also keep the commandments embodied in the Law.

“It [the Book of Mormon] promises each of us that ‘all who will come unto [the Savior] and obey the laws and ordinances of his gospel may be saved’ (Robert D. Hales, “Holy Scriptures: The Power of God unto Our Salvation,” Ensign, 11/2006, 24)

Indeed, according to a seasoned BYU Professor of Theology, God Himself is subject to the Law:

“Many traditional theologies conceive of God as some type of divine power, the ‘first cause’ or ‘prime mover’ of the universe, the self-creating, self-motivating source of all creation and progression. Many theologians claim that nothing existed before him, and that all things derive from him. Latter-day Saints, on the other hand, assert that God progressed to his present state of perfection and glory by strict adherence to eternal law. In Mormon theology, law is the first cause and prime mover of the universe, and by adherence to it, people may become like God” [which is to say, people may become Gods] (Victor L. Ludlow, Principles and Practices of the Restored Gospel, Deseret Book Co., 382. Brackets mine. ).

However, the Bible teaches something quite different. Rather than God being subject to the Law (i.e., the Law is above God), God created and gave human beings His Law for His sovereign purposes. In Galatians Paul provides both the reason and the goal of the Law:

“Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary” (Galatians 3:19).

“But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian [the Law], for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith” (Galatians 3:25-26).

Tabletalk magazine explains:

“In describing the Law’s purpose in justification, Paul must also give us the Law’s purpose in the history of redemption, which he does in [Galatians 3] verses 19-29. Given the priority of the Abrahamic covenant, which bestows salvation on those who trust in God’s promise (vv. 15-18), it is clear that the Lord never intended His Law, which grants righteousness to those who keep its precepts flawlessly, to be used by sinners to effect their own salvation. Even the structure of the Mosaic law denies that fallen people can justify themselves by their works of obedience. Our Creator gave the Law after He redeemed the Israelites from slavery (Ex. 20:1-17), expecting them to obey it in gratitude for a redemption He accomplished, not to earn their own righteousness. The Law’s sacrifices for atonement presuppose that the people would continue to miss the mark.

“Knowing the fall made us stubborn enough to believe we can get right with Him by doing enough good works to ‘outweigh’ our bad ones, God gave the Mosaic law to Israel in order to refute this belief. The Law ‘was added because of transgressions’ (Gal. 3:19) to imprison ‘everything under sin’ (v. 22). It reveals wrongdoing as a transgression of the divine will (Rom. 7:7-25) to show Israel the depth of sin and her need for the righteousness of another. Augustine writes on 3:22 ‘Transgression of the law was needed to break the pride of those who…boasted of having a sort of natural righteousness’ (Ancient Christian Commentary, NT vol. 8, p. 47). Martin Luther echoes this in his Galatians commentary, explaining how the Law prepares a person for faith as ‘a mirror that shows…he is a sinner, guilty of death, and worthy of God’s indignation and wrath.’ Rightly used, the Law spurred Israel to look to God for salvation.” (Tabletalk, February 2009, vol. 33, no. 2, page 45)

So the Law was given because of transgressions — because of evil (Genesis 6:5) — to:

  • Restrain the ungodly and unholy (1 Timothy 1:8-10)
  • Reflect (as in a mirror) the depth of our sin (Romans 7:7)
  • Enslave us in order that we recognize our inability to save ourselves (Galatians 3:23)
  • Lead us to Christ “that we might be justified by faith” (Galatians 3:25); and finally,
  • Reveal God’s perfect will, to define a holy life, that we may know how to honor and serve the God we love as we seek to please Him (Psalm 119:105)

Again from Tabletalk:

“Remember that our Savior pleased the Father by keeping His Law perfectly, by seeing the will of God as His ‘food’ (John 4:34). If the imitation of Jesus makes us grow spiritually (1 Cor. 11:1), and if Jesus followed the commandments of His Father to please Him, then it follows that we will please God if we keep His Law. We cannot keep it perfectly, and we cannot make Him love us or accept us through our obedience. However, we can bring Him pleasure in doing good. Freed from the curse of the Law through the cross, we can now keep these holy statutes by the power of His Spirit (Rom. 8:1-4).” (Tabletalk, February 2009, vol. 33, no. 2, page 53)

The Bible says the Law was given by God to lead us Christ; believers strive to obey God’s Law out of gratitude and as an expression of our love for Him.

Dr. Ludlow, after decades of research, Church callings, and teaching for the LDS Church, believes Mormonism says the Law is the “first cause” and “prime mover of the universe”; that God the Father–and every other human being–is required to obey it in order to prove themselves worthy and exalt themselves to Godhood.

See the difference?


Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.


About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
This entry was posted in Christianity, Salvation, Worthiness and tagged . Bookmark the permalink.

109 Responses to The Law

  1. falcon says:

    I wonder who the author of the Law is that even the Mormon god is subject to?

    A lot of this sounds like some kind of “laws of the universe” self-improvement program, which would fit in perfectly with the Mormon false view of eternal progression. As-an-aside, my guess is that Mormons are heavy consumers of self-help literature and the human potential movement.

    We see some of this form of thinking in what became known as the “Word-Faith” movement within some branches of Christianity. What follows has been taken from “C.R.I. Speaks out on the Word-Faith Movement” Christian Research Institute International.
    The basic summary is that “God created man in ‘God’s class’ (or as little gods), with the potential to exercise the ‘God kind of faith’ in calling things into existence and living in prosperity and success as sovereign beings. We forfeited this opportunity, however, by rebelling against God in the Garden and taking upon ourselves Satan’s nature. To correct this situation, Jesus Christ became a man, died spiritually (thus taking upon Himself Satan’s nature), went to Hell, was ‘born again,’ rose from the dead with God’s nature again, and then sent the Holy Spirit so that the Incarnation could be duplicated in believers, thus fulfilling their calling to be little gods. Since we are called to experience this kind of life now, we should be successful in every area of our lives”

    A proper understanding of God’s Word and supernatural discernment (gift of the Holy Spirit) will help people stay away from errors like this but if a person doesn’t respect God’s Word for what it is, they will be led into all kinds of error.

  2. falcon says:

    I don’t want to stray to far from the topic at hand, but for the lurkers I think it’s important that they know the warnings from Scripture that keeps us on an even-keel and allows us to discern the difference between orthodox doctrine and that which could be classified as:
    heterodox: differing from orthodox teaching in some significant way; may occur in varying degrees.
    suborthodox: less than orthodox, yet not explicitly contrary to orthodoxy.
    unorthodox: departing from orthodoxy in some measure, though not necessarily embracing explicit heresy.
    heresy: doctrine which is erroneous in such a way that Christians must divide themselves as a church from all who teach or accept it.
    aberrational: off-center or in error in some important way, such that the doctrine or practice should be rejected.
    “In short, heresy is any doctrine which the Bible explicitly labels as destructive, damning error; or any doctrine which the Bible instructs is not to be tolerated in the church; or any doctrine which, even if not mentioned in the Bible, utterly contradicts those truths which the Bible indicates are essential for sound Christian faith.” (CRI: see above post)
    Now before people push the snooze button, let me say that this academic and exacting language is put forth for a very important reason. It’s to clearly define words and their meaning because cults have a nasty habit of playing fast and loose with terms and use creative Biblical interpretations to promote false teachings and doctrines.
    When a preacher gets up to deliver a sermon, the faithful ought to have their Bibles out and their pens and paper at the ready to check out whether the words that are spoken are right on the money. Dynamic and confident speakers can wow an audience with their persuasive manner and thus lead them down all sort of paths that are contrary to sound teaching. Paul warned Timothy of this when he said, “……instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines….” (First Timothy 1:3)

  3. falcon says:

    In the chapter dealing with “A Biblical Guide to Orthodoxy and Heresy” the CRI publication lists six major categories from Scripture regarding heresy:
    1. Heresies about revelation-teachings that distort, deny, or add to Scripture in a way that leads people to destruction; false claims to apostolic or prophetic authority.
    2.Heresies about God-teachings that promote false gods or idolatrous distortions of the true God.
    3.Heresies about Christ-denials of His unique Lordship, His genuine humanity, His true identity.
    4. Heresies about salvation-teaching legalism or licentiousness; denying the gospel of Christ’s death and resurrection and so forth.
    5. Heresies about the church-deliberate attempts to lead people away from the fellowship of true Christians; utter rejection of the Church.
    6. Heresies about the future-false predictions for which divine authority is claimed; claims that Christ’s return has taken place; and the like.
    In the cults and to some degree even within Christianity, there are people who promote themselves as having special knowledge or revelations that just don’t line-up with sound Biblical teaching. In order to have their views accepted, the Bible either has to be twisted and tortured into submission or the Bible has to be made to appear inadequate or in error.
    It’s a lot more fun for some folks to follow along with what they presume to be the latest revelation or the “shiny new object”. It keeps their attention and is emotionally satisfying but in the end is spiritual junk food; tastes good and is filling but it has no nutritional value. In fact, its consumption leads to spiritual malnutrition and often spiritual death.
    It’s worth the time and effort to check things out rather than merely accepting someone’s word.

  4. subgenius says:


    Victor L. Ludlow, Principles and Practices of the Restored Gospel

    This book is not LDS doctrine, nor is it a work that is endorsed by the LDS church.
    To put it forth under the guise of Mormonism is misleading to those who may not be familar with the coffee-speak herein.

    [Sub, I have updated the article above to clarify the credentials of the source of the quote. Thanks. –Sharon]

    Furthermore isn’t this a more controversial subject within Ev circles?, especially Paul and the Law….but hey, Tabletalk’s featured contributors looks like the LDS GAs from the 70s….and subscription is less than $2 a month!

  5. iamse7en says:

    Another example of ignorance at this blog.

    When you quote Galatians 3: “Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator” and “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” – What exactly is Paul referring to?! What is THE LAW he is talking about?! What was the schoolmaster that prepared men for the coming of Christ? THE MOSAIC LAW. Paul is not referring to ETERNAL LAW, but to the schoolmaster, the mosaic law. I’m sure you can find literature within your own ‘sect’ that explains this to you.

    Even the structure of the Mosaic law denies that fallen people can justify themselves by their works of obedience.

    You are inferring here, that Mormons believe they can justify themselves by their works of obedience. That is completely false and completely against LDS scripture. Is this how you attack the Lord’s Church? You misrepresent our doctrines, then claim we stray from the true gospel? All throughout LDS scripture and writings, we explain quite clearly, that works of obedience do not justify us for eternal salvation. No matter what we do, we are STILL unclean and unfit for the presence of God! It is by virtue of the atonement and His eternal grace that allows us to dwell in the presence of God. This is such a gross mischaracterization of our faith and beliefs, which undermines the love and devotion we have in and to Christ and His atonement. How dare you.

  6. iamse7en says:

    We wholeheartedly believe in justification by faith, but we recognize that sanctification in Christ comes through obedience to eternal law. Clearly, there are qualifications for entrance into the kingdom of God, or salvation. You may say the only qualification is faith. However, the Lord will call you a liar. The LORD himself states, that “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). What’s that He said? EXCEPT. Meaning, that a man CANNOT enter the kingdom of God, without being born of water and the spirit. This means that being born of water and of the Spirit is a qualification to enter the kingdom of God. There is no out-of-context and no ambiguity here. This is a straight-up FACT straight from the Lord’s mouth. So, we can start listing some of these qualifications for salvation. Faith, born of water and Spirit, and what else? The scriptures are full of them. It is our duty to find out these qualifications and commandments. Clearly, as James states, faith without works are dead, so righteous acts are inherently connected with true faith, but the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and all of the Lord’s prophets in our modern day make quite clear that works of obedience do NOT justify us to live in the presence of God! “For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”

  7. iamse7en says:

    This also ties to one of the pivotal doctrines that many within heretical Christendom love to mock: The Lord tells us in Matt 5:48: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Why would the Lord ever give us a commandment we cannot keep? He wouldn’t. This means, one day, through His grace, we can become like Him and His Father in heaven. Perfect. 1 John 3:2-3:

    Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

    We shall be like Him? Pure, even as he is pure? What a glorious blessing! What a crystal clear statement about our eternal heritage! We are the sons of God with the potential to be pure EVEN AS HE IS PURE! We are the offspring of God, heirs of God and joint-heirs WITH Christ, capable of inheriting that which the Father has: His perfection and His purity. You cannot refute it. It is written in the Bible.

  8. setfree says:

    John 3:5… what does it mean to be born of water? to be born. as a baby. (Check out John 3:4, and you’ll see the immediate context says this) what does it mean to be born of spirit? Luke 9:24 (etc) and Romans 6:4 do a good job of showing that it is laying down the life we have, in order to accept Jesus’ Lordship over us, that indicates a spiritual birth.

    We are not children of God until we have joined with Christ, therefore 1 John 3:2-3 only applies to believers/true Christians. The Bible clearly explains that we inherit Jesus’ righteousness (and Him our sins) when we accept what He did for us at the cross as full payment. That is how we become perfect.

    I understand that this is an entire difference of understanding. But what you are getting (in LDS-ism) is a skewed view of the Bible. What I have written above is a very short presentation of what the Bible really says about being perfect. I am sure many others can (and probably will) do a much better job than I did with explaining. My point simply is that you are quoting the Bible but not to say what the BIble actually says.

  9. Ralph says:

    Just a couple of scriptures –

    Mal. 3: 6 I am the Lord, I change not.
    Matt. 19: 26 (Mark 10: 27; Luke 18: 27) with God all things are possible.
    Luke 1: 37 with God nothing shall be impossible.
    Heb. 6: 18 impossible for God to lie.

    There are more in the Bible, but I just want a few examples. You believe that God is omnipotent, as referenced above, ALL THINGS are possible and NOTHING is impossible with God.

    According to Hebrews above, it is impossible for God to lie. If He is omnipotent as the rest of the Bible records, then why is lying impossible? Is there a greater law for this to occur? It is not a case of He WONT lie, but that He CANNOT lie (that is the inference of ‘impossible’) – this means that it is a condition placed upon Him, not a condition He made for Himself. What happens if He did lie? Would He still be God?

    Again, in Malachi (and other places in the Bible) it states that God cannot change. Why can’t He change if He is omnipotent? What would happen if He changed? Why doesn’t He do what He wants to do? He is after all omnipotent and has no laws binding to Him.

    As iamse7en said, the law being discussed in the Bible is a law for this earth only. It befits us as imperfect mortals. Where as the statement made by Victor Ludlow is discussing a greater law, an eternal law that governs all which we and God (Heavenly Father) are subject to. The Bible gives ‘borders’ for God, even the Christian faith has placed ‘borders’ on God which they find in the Bible. Some of these borders God placed there Himself, while others ‘seem’ to have been placed upon Him. We LDS believe that He has a choice because He is omnipotent. The only reason He cannot lie is because if He chose to lie He would cease to be God (found in the BoM somewhere – can’t remember right now). If He lies, changes, tempts men (James 1:13), etc then He will cease to be God. If He ceases to be God then all of His creation will fall apart and cease to exist.

  10. grindael says:

    To the Lurkers & Curious, Some Gems from my Library:

    “The WORDS OF OUR LIVING PROPHETS ARE ALSO ACCEPTED AS SCRIPTURE.” (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Gospel Principles, p. 51 – 52, 1978)

    “Good and evil then, in Latter-day Saint philosophy, are not created things. Both are eternal, just as duration is, and space. They are as old as law—old as truth, old as this eternal universe. Intelligences must adjust themselves to these eternal existences; this, the measure of their duty. (Apostle B.H. Roberts, CHC:2:404)

    “It must be admitted at once that the mind of man can know God only in part. One thing seems clear, however, that the Lord who is a part of the universe, in common with all other parts of the universe is subject to eternal universal laws.” (Apostle John Widstoe, A Rational Theology 24-25)

    “God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar to that through which we are now passing. He became a God” (Gospel Through the Ages, p.104);”there was a time when the Deity was much less powerful than He is today…He grew in experience and continued to grow until He attained the status of Godhood. In other words, He became a God by absolute obedience…” (Apostle Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, p.114-115).

    “God did not create man in a complete and ultimate sense of the word. God “found” intelligence and the elements already in existence. He took what he had, what was available, and proceeded from that point to create or organize man and, out of his great love and wisdom, to do everything possible for him. God is, therefore, not completely responsible for man and the universe in which man lives. Man, too, is responsible because of his eternal and free nature.”(Lowell. L. Bennion, An Introduction to the Gospel (Salt Lake City: Deseret Sunday School Union Board, 1955, p. 49)

  11. grindael says:

    “Joseph Smith taught a plurality of gods and that man by obeying the commandments of God and keeping the whole law will eventually reach the power and exaltation by which he also will become a god.” ( Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 238)

    “The important points of the doctrine for Latter-day Saints are that Gods and humans are the same species of being, but at different stages of development in a divine continuum, and that the heavenly pattern Father and Mother are the heavenly pattern, model, and example of what mortals can become through obedience to the gospel” (Encyclopedia Of Mormonism, Vol. 2, p. 549).

    “God’s immutability should not be so understood as to exclude the idea of advancement or progress of God. . . . And is it too bold a thought, that with this progress, even for the Mightiest, new thoughts, and new vistas may appear, inviting to new adventures and enterprises that will yield new experiences, advancement, and enlargement even for the Most High?(Apostle B.H. Roberts, Seventy’s Course in Theology (Salt Lake City: Deseret News, 1907-1912), 4:69-70)

    “If there was a point where man in his progression could not proceed any further, the very idea would throw a gloom over every intelligent and reflecting mind. God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end. It is just so with us. We are in a probation, which is a school of experience.” (Prophet Wilford Woodruff, JD6:120)

  12. grindael says:

    According to [one] theory, God can progress no further in knowledge and power; but the God that I serve is progressing eternally, and so are his children: they will increase to all eternity, if they are faithful. (Prophet Brigham Young,JD:11:286-287)

    “We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father and so on, from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another still more ancient, until our minds are wearied and lost in the multiplicity of generations and successive worlds, and as a last resort, we wonder in our mind, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and how the first Father was begotten.” (Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, Washington, D. C., 1854, page 132.)

    “we shouldn’t bother ourselves worrying over how far back the genealogy extends for, ”. .or in worshipping any one of these Gods, we worship the whole.” (ibid, 132)

    “Each succeeding generation of Gods follow the example of the preceding ones: each generation have their wives, who raise up from the fruit of their loins immortal spirits: when their families become numerous, they organize new worlds for them…. [T]hey place their families upon the same….” (ibid, 134-5)

  13. subgenius says:

    in hopes that next thread will cover this topic…
    who is being “paid” for what?

    well stated and eloquent. Thank you. But be warned, i have had the debate over the word “perfect” recently and the Ev would have it correctly translated as “adult” or “mature”. The claim is that God wishes us to be “spiritually mature” like Himself, and i believe “straight” is related to spine posture, in the Ev mind.
    You must know that until the Ev is free of this needed seperation of Creator and Created, they will be unable to grasp the truth of what you say…especially when you are agreeing with them on a particular point!
    again, thank you for a well-thought, well-meaning, and well-worded post.

    Thank you for clarifying the reference. I will gladly join in on commentary relative to LDS Doctrine, but regretfully I will sit this one out, seeing that it is rather subjective matter…i know, i will miss you guys too. 🙂

  14. grindael says:

    I think Sharon’s point has been made.

  15. falcon says:

    How about this, “Can God make a rock that’s too heavy for Him to lift?” You’re back to your old tricks buddy. Either you are just thinking “Mormon” with your comments, you’re playing games, or you really don’t know any better. I don’t know which of the three is worse.

    *Christians see the Bible as authoritative. It’s where we go to test prophetic utterances, revelations and teachings. Mormons are in a free float zone. That’s why it’s known as a “maze”. The Bible is corrupted in Mormonlore. It can’t be trusted.

    *Christians actually have a systematic theology or a way of viewing doctrine. Mormonism is a theological pin ball machine; lots of activity and lots of noise but no substance.

    *Christians have “rules” in order to correctly divide the Word of God. Folks are held accountable for their Biblical interpretation. Mormons use a grab bag approach applying meaning to scripture that doesn’t make any logical sense or follow any sort of discipline.

    So as that for a backdrop, lets just say that it is in the best interest of Mormons to make their god submit to some sort of universal laws and rules. After all their god is just an improved man. He needs rules!

  16. Chris_from_SoCal says:


    You bring up an interesting point. When God created the laws of this world, in his omnipotence, did he decree what is good or did he recognize it was good? For example, did he declare that murder and stealing were forbidden because they in themselves are wrong or only wrong because he declared them so (leaving the possibility he could have declared them otherwise)?

    Furthermore, which laws are the ones he created for this world and which ones are eternal that he did not create?

  17. mobaby says:


    You said “The Lord tells us in Matt 5:48: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Why would the Lord ever give us a commandment we cannot keep? He wouldn’t.”

    I disagree. Look at the Ten Commandments. How many of them have you broken? Have you ever coveted? Have you ever committed adultery or looked at another with lust (as Jesus revealed the principle of this commandment)? Have you ever failed to give your parents proper honor by arguing or being disrespectful? Are our hearts as human beings ever free from selfish motives? No they are not. God does give law, commands that cannot be kept. As fallen sinful human beings we are simply incapable of keeping God’s law even in a mediocre way, let alone achieving perfection. As a matter of fact the Bible says God’s law REVEALS our sin. If we read Romans 3:19 – 28 we see the scope and purpose of the Law and its relationship to the Gospel.

    Look at just Romans 3:20 “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” We sinners are in no way justified by the law – it reveals our sin and our need for the Savior.

    God’s law makes demands but supplies no way to fulfill them. Without the gospel, the law is a curse, a demand which will lead only to grief over our sin (Matt. 19:22). But Christ has become the curse for us, fulfilling the law the we simply cannot: Galatians 3:12 – 14 “And the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”

    Any Scripture that puts a demand on us is the Law – and is NOT the Gospel. The law shows us our sin and leads us to the Gospel, but the Law is not the Gospel.

  18. mobaby says:

    In contrast to the Law, the Gospel is the free gift of forgiveness given through Jesus Christ. The Gospel does not make any demands or place any requirement upon the recipients – it is simply to be received by faith. “For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by faith as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forth and a propitiation by His blood, to be received by faith.” Romans 3:23 – 25 No instruction is included in the Gospel; it simply says we are justified by the crucified Lord Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:8 – 9
    “If Law and Gospel are muddled or mixed the Holy Scriptures will be misread and misused. Without the right distinction of the Law from the Gospel, the Bible appears to be a book riddled with contradiction. At one place it condemns, at another it pardons. One text speaks of God’s wrath visited upon sinners, while another declares His undying love for His enemies.” (Handling the Word of Truth, John T. Pless) Once we understand the distinction between Law and Gospel the Bible becomes a clear book, revealing God’s righteous standards and our place of judgment under the law while also declaring the Gospel that Christ perfectly fulfilled the Law and grace and mercy are given to us sinners as a free gift in Christ.
    When you read through the Bible, think – is this Law or Gospel when you come across a demand or a free gift of grace. And understand that we can NEVER meet the demand of the Law. Then, take note of the pardon and forgiveness that God offers – this is the free gift of redemption offered by Christ. Believe in Christ, receive Him.
    “The Law tells us about ourselves. What it shows us is not good. It diagnoses the sickness of our sin and puts death before us. The Gospel, on the other hand shows us the pure grace and favor of God in Jesus Christ. It shows us not a God who is against us but for us, even to the point of death on the cross.” (Pless)

  19. grindael says:

    I find it interesting that LDS leaders can speak so confidently on the ‘mysteries’ of the universe and how they apply to GOD Himself.

    Chris, if you read the quotes I posted, one Mormon Apostle taught that good and evil are eternal as are the laws of the universe, and GOD is subservient to them.

    An interesting premise to limit GOD like that, is it not? If good and evil are eternal, then what exactly is the Mormon God? An intelligence that came from where? One of many?

    Reminds me of the BORG from Star Trek. 7 of 9 perhaps?

  20. mobaby says:

    God is not under His Law, neither is He above it. God embodies the Law and defines it. It is true, God cannot violate who He is for His very nature is good. God does not obey Law anymore than God is defined by His creation (the material world). God defines the Law, just as He is the Creator of everything.

    If everyone perfectly obeyed God’s moral Law in spirit it would be paradise on earth. Jesus summarized all of the law as Love – love your neighbor and love God. This love which Christ commanded we cannot fulfill. We will always fail to love God as we should, as we will sin against our neighbor. That’s why we need the Gospel – the forgiveness of Christ as a free gift.

  21. grindael says:


    If ever there was a ‘nutshell’ description of
    the Gospel, you just gave it.

  22. Chris_from_SoCal says:


    The reason I pose that question to Ralph is because I would like to see the response come from a Mormon. I’m sure you’re aware of this but basically I’m just posing the Euthyphro dilemma.

    In debates with atheists, this is sometimes brought up by the atheist as an argument against the existence of God, or of objective moral truth. If God decrees something as good in a libertarian fashion, then couldn’t he just as well have declared murder or rape a virtue? Therefore there is no objective good, only an arbitrary decision by God. If God decrees something as good because he recognizes it as good, then it’s external to him, so what is he necessary for?

    So what I find odd is that a Mormon would use the same kind of reasoning to prove something theologically that an atheist would use to render the notion of God moot. I would think that to use this as a theological argument by the Mormon would be question begging. Who created the eternal law? Why are we not devoting ourselves to him? Why did he put this system in place, and how do we know he did?

    Perhaps the Mormon has answers to this. I don’t know. Hopefully I’ll hear some.

  23. liv4jc says:

    Mobaby. What’s freakin’ me out here is that Iam7en actually made some Evangelical sounding statements. He was really angry when he said them, but he was quoting Evangelical doctrine..kind of. He/She said,

    “This also ties to one of the pivotal doctrines that many within heretical Christendom love to mock: The Lord tells us in Matt 5:48: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Why would the Lord ever give us a commandment we cannot keep? He wouldn’t. This means, one day, through His grace, we can become like Him and His Father in heaven. Perfect.

    Missed it by that much. We will be perfect one day through His grace, true. But isn’t that the same as saying He sees us perfect now through His grace. It’s not like Christians don’t try to keep the moral commandments,and then we have Romans 3:19-21, 2 Corinthians 5:21. Giving us a commandment we can’t keep? Uhhh. Unless you know of a secret set of commandments somewhere, I only know of 10 I can’t keep. Iam7en also said,

    We wholeheartedly believe in justification by faith, but we recognize that sanctification in Christ comes through obedience to eternal law.

    Any way I can get my hands on an eternal law manual. I seem to have misplaced mine. “We wholeheartedly believe in justification by faith”, but…(waiting for the other shoe to drop)

    “Clearly, there are qualifications for entrance into the kingdom of God, or salvation. You may say the only qualification is faith. However, the Lord will call you a liar. The LORD himself states, that “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5).”

    and there it is. Of course iam7en means water baptism. A work, not faith. I see you used LORD instead of Lord. Are you admitting that Jesus is YHWH? I couldn’t get any LDS on the last thread to tell me God’s name. Thanks, iam7en.

  24. grindael says:

    If Mormon Apostles are just like the Apostles at the time of Jesus, with the same power, authority, keys of the Priesthood & knowledge,

    Why is there ANY debate over ANY statements they make in publications, conferences, etc.

    Are they not a ‘wellspring of knowledge’? Are not their words ‘scripture’?

    That is what the ‘Restoration’ is all about, is it not?

    Why does the Mormon Church ‘qualify’ their statements then?

    Do they not have faith that these Apostles know what they are talking about?

    How do Mormons justify ‘qualifying’ statements by Prophets then?

    What is the purpose then, of these Apostles even giving talks or writing down what they do?

    Is it only for the ‘entertainment’ of the saints?
    Could some Mormon please clarify?

    Note that I am tying this to the statements made that I posted above.

  25. liv4jc says:

    Chris, when they get cornered you will see them making a lot of the same arguments agnosto-atheists use. Especially in regards to the reliability of scripture, textual transmission, textual criticism, contradictions in scripture, un-fulfilled prophecies (supposedly), contradictions between OT legal principles, “an eye for an eye” and NT principles, “turn the other cheek’, etc. They like to compare the supposed shortcomings of the Bible to justify the blatant problems with their writings that are less than 200 years old and were created well into the era of mechanical printing presses.

  26. grindael says:


    Good luck with that. The closest you will get is the quote from Orson Pratt above. There IS no answer. They will quote from Smith that ‘intelligences always existed’ and God is just an ‘organizer’.

    The doctrine sounds deep, but it is like the chicken or the egg conundrum. Smith knew it to be so, and even with his boasting of ‘the Second Comforter’ could not answer that basic question.

    If the gods of Mormonism go back to the beginning, and all are perfect in knowledge, it should be easy to answer, don’t you think?

    But you are dealing with prophets who disagree on who God even was. Young taught he was Adam. It was declared false doctrine by Spencer Kimball. If they could not get that straight, how are they going to answer your question?

    It is easier to say it was always there, and God is just a ‘manager’.

  27. Ralph asked

    If He is omnipotent as the rest of the Bible records, then why is lying impossible?

    Mobaby gave an interesting perspective, and I had not come across Chris’ Euthyphro dilemma before.


    I invite you to think hard and long about the verses you posted,

    Mal 3:6 profoundly rebuts any assertion that God did change and continues to change. So much for the “eternal progression” nonsense,

    In Matt 19:26 (etc.), Jesus plainly teaches that man cannot save himself, but God can do what we cannot do. So much for the “after all we can do” nonsense.

    In Luke 1:37, the Angel anounces that Mary will conceive in a way that is impossible for human beings to get someone pregnant. So much for the “Heavenly Father begetting Jesus in the natural way, just like human mums and dads” nonsense.

    Finally, Hebrews 6:13-18 affirms the idea of One God, who is not subject to anything higher than Himself. So much for the “plurality of gods” nonsense.

    The author of Hebrews affirms the view that God is NOT subject to any external or higher law, force, principle, power, authority. This is why, when God takes an oath, there is NOTHING higher than Him to swear by. So, He swears by Himself (being the Name above all Names). If there was some higher cosmic law of eternal progression, He would have sworn by that, but He didn’t.

    The impossibility Hebrews refers to is that it is impossible for God to act in a way that is contrary to Himself. For example, He cannot lie because He IS light (1 John 1:5), and He IS truth (John 14:6).

    Here’s a thought; God, the law-creator, created the law as an indication of His own person and character. The law God gives is “good” because God is good, not the other way round.

    The Biblical perspective of the One God is simple, robust, and profoundly difficult for us to grasp naturally because, as created beings, we naturally assume that everything else is subject to “higher” authorities, just as we are.

  28. falcon says:

    Reading your list of “sins” made me think I was back in Catholic school going through my examination of conscious book getting ready to go into the confessional. What a flood of memories. Could I have traumatic stress syndrome?

    The lines are clearly drawn here as to who Mormons “think” God is and who God is. The first thing that comes to mind for me is that Mormons cannot see God as sovereign. Of course they can’t. The Mormon god isn’t that much different then they are, he’s just further along in the progression. What a miserable religion this is. All kinds of gods chasing around the universe, limited in time and space and power and authority; subject to other gods and they are all subject to some “universal laws”.

    I was trying to think of the book Oprah was promoting some time ago. I finally came up with “The Secret”. So I did some looking including watching a twenty minute intro video on YouTube. Well this “universal law”, revealed in the secret, is the “law of attraction”. In-a-nut-shell what you think about and feel becomes reality. They take it one step further then, and conclude that we can create our own outcomes via our thoughts and emotions; attracting that which we want.
    It’s a little like the word-of-faith folks who deny reality and speak out words of faith, typically Bible verses, in order to create certain outcomes. In-a-sense, their faith becomes sovereign.
    It seems that a lot of folks are interested in power. This has to be a primary drive behind the insistence of Mormons that they are becoming gods. They are even willing to create a lesser god in order to fullfil their own lusts for power and authority. I guess becoming a limited god, subject to some nebulous “laws of the universe” is better than not being a god at all. And think of it, it’s better for them than acknowledging “thee” God because there are certain things He does not share with us because they are applicable only to Him.
    Being “like God” in character is not enough for Mormons.

  29. subgenius says:

    Martin of B
    Mal 3:6 does, in fact, NOT rebut the notion of God ‘changing’….but it does provide a great rebuttal to the assertion that Jesus is God.
    As if the ability for names to be blotted out or added to the Book of Life are not revealing enough….ponder the “changes” herein
    Genesis 6:6 Jonah 3:10 Exodus 32:14

    Now, perhaps one will ‘attempt’ the argument that God “planned” for His own sorrow…for His own regret, and personally i would like to see such an argument made.
    Now, i am not presenting that God has not always been God in the Biblical record, but rather is God static or dynamic?

    If there was some higher cosmic law of eternal progression, He would have sworn by that, but He didn’t.

    any archaelogist will tell you that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

    Again, is the Bible intended to provide a record of the complete nature of God?, no.
    it is primarily intended to bring about conversion, and teaches and prepares…inother words it is a point of deparutre…a begining.
    This is evident throughout the scriptures and evident in the rather limited view of God which He reveals of Himself through the “trinity”.

    Being “like God” in character is not enough for Mormons.
    Because the Scripture records commandments for all of us to be more…..your above exclusion “in character” is not in the Bible when we are told to be “like”..

  30. mobaby says:

    Great thoughts Martin on Hebrews 6:13-18 – there is no Name greater than God, so He swears by Himself. The Bible does not know of any higher Law than God Himself.

    Liv4JC, Yes, Mormons talk about salvation by grace, but then bring in the Law and negate all that they have said. It’s always “after all that you can do.” Yes, “the other shoe that drops” of works righteousness is always close behind. The way LDS practices baptism it is most certainly a work, it is a rite or work performed even for the dead with the person involved only by proxy in that case. I think Mormons mean more than just their baptism rite for true salvation (the highest heaven), remember the listing of all the works from a few posts ago – that’s probably a start, and then as iamse7en said, you search the Scriptures looking for works to do. I always think a simple understanding of the difference between Law and Gospel is so missing from the LDS faith – and without this distinction the Bible is a very confusing book.
    The Gospel on the other hand offers truly free forgiveness in Christ. He died so that we might live! As for good works, we do those out of a thankful love for God. When we sin, we feel the conviction of the Law to bring us to repentance, and we turn again to the mercy of Christ and His forgiveness. God’s Law is important and is a guide for living. However, it will never give us what we need for salvation or even provide a way to fulfill its demands. The Gospel is powerful for salvation, the Law is powerless for salvation and drives us to Christ.

  31. mobaby says:


    Thinking about “The Secret” brought back memories of when we had to watch that garbage at work, and then were given blank checks to fill in for any amount we wanted to receive – declaring to the universe what we wanted. I had a co-worker who put down something like $9,999,999,999,999,999 as he scowled. Yes, the law of attraction. It’s so much like the word-faith movement, based on greed.

    There is no Law above God, or principles to which He answers. He is the Law and He gives us the means to relate to Him through Christ. Anything that takes us away from the cross of Christ is taking us away from a right relationship with God.

  32. falcon says:

    Is that right sub? Being like God “in character” is not what the Bible is talking about? It’s talking about us being like God in substance? This is why my friend, Mormons have no grasp on reality when it comes to what the Bible teaches and what the Church fathers articulated about the nature of God and the nature of man.
    With a proper understanding of both the NT and OT we are shown explicitly and often that there is one God (Deuteronomy 4:35-39; Isaiah 43:10; Isaiah 44:6-8; First Corinthians 8:4-6; First Timothy 2:5; and James 2:19). The Bible rejects both polytheism and henotheism.
    The Bible also shows us that God is unique. He is distinct from that which He has created. (Genesis 1:1; John 1:3; Romans 1:25; Hebrews 11:3). This uniqueness of God eliminates both pantheism and something known as panentheism which teaches that God’s created world is identical to Him or an essential part of Him. God is unique and I have posted before about His being eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. There is no one or thing like God. (Psalm 102:25-27; Acts 17:24-28)
    Given that the Bible tells us over and over again that God is unique and that there isn’t anyone approaching Him, that we have Mormons claiming that they will be “like” God, and not just in character, is ignorance and pure pride. But Mormons insist that they will be gods, progressing as men have before them. This is not Biblical in fact the Bible has to be seen as corrupted to even fit such a blasphemous heresy into a religious belief.

  33. grindael says:

    Perhaps these instances of scripture of God ‘being sorry’ are for our benefit? Expressions by the writers? If you go down the track of God ‘not knowing’ EVERYTHING, then God is limited, and that IS not scriptural. I’m not willing to put any kind of limitations on God based on what is written by men, or how they interpret what other men have written. But this is the dilemma of Mormonism, because their prophets have always claimed to have ‘secret knowledge’ like the gnostics and therefore have endeavored to make God like us, thus limiting Him, because they can’t explain Him.

    The names in the books, all that, for OUR benefit. God already knows, He knows everything. It is how man perceives God and write things down that should be the focus here.

    Did God change his mind, or did man change their ways, and reap the benefits of it? How would it be expressed by men in their writings when man chose the right path over the wrong one? How do Mormons explain God being sorry He made man on the earth, when there was some kind of pre-existent council and it was a replay of what had gone on forever?

    Knowing the nature of man before hand, since this had been done time after time after time, would not all of this have been anticipated by Him? So aren’t Mormons the ones who are supporting the premise of God’s ‘planning’ everything in advance, even His own sorrow?

    There are even stories in the Mormon Church that everyone ‘chose’ their parents, where they were born, what disease they would get, what their trials would be, etc. etc.

    The Bible does tell us the basic attributes of God though, He knows everything, is all powerful, & loves us. That puts no limitations on Him, man does that with false revelation and doctrine.

  34. falcon says:

    Well this is Mormonism. They have a god that is constantly changing and as he progresses, I guess, he sends updates to the Mormon prophets regarding new things he has learned and become aware of. That’s the only explanation Mormons could possibly have for their prophets proclaiming disjointed and clearly untrue prophecies. The total inconsistency of Mormons on just about any topic related to their religion should be enough for the average Mormon to figure out that this religion is nothing but a free fire zone of contradictions and false teachings.
    That God is subject to anything at all except Himself, is a reflection of the man-to-God philosophy and belief of Mormonism. Joseph Smith’s changing views of God and his rewriting of his own Book of Commandments verifies that this “progression” was merely Smith’s ego driven fantasies gone wild.
    That Mormons are willing to give up God and proclaim His Word as corrupt is a manifestation of human folly and sin. We can’t underestimate the desire of men and their foolish pride in wanting to exalt themselves. Mormonism has as its core the sin that led Lucifer into rebellion. To fight so hard to defend and maintain such a false belief system, is a perfect example of fallen humanity.

  35. subgenius says:

    Being like God “in character” is not what the Bible is talking about?

    i said that “character” is not the ‘exclusive’ or ‘only’ trait that we are to aspire to – according to the scriptures.
    In other words where does it say that we are only to be like Him in character alone? We are to be like Him in both style and substance and all facets one can infer…unless you can illustrate the chapter/verse that notes the specifics.
    It is you that would do well to understand that the “nature” of God can not be diminished to just “character”.
    But please, cite the verse where to be “like God” is solely meant with regards to His “character”.

    Just the fact that the Bible never cites the “trinity” in the same place at the same time is enough evidence that the nature of God is lost to a large amount of Ev here.

  36. grindael says:


    Nice to see you. Thought you were going to sit this one out! LOL.

    Glad you didn’t.

  37. falcon says:

    I listed a whole bunch of Bible verses detailing who God is and it’s quite clear from what these verses say that we aren’t or will never be Him. You don’t have to even read between the lines to see this. That’s why Mormons are so miserable at Biblical interpretation and thus understanding what the Bible says about the nature of God and the nature of man.
    I’ll try again. God is the only source of His own life (Exodus 3:14). We are not, nor will we ever be like God and be the source of our own lives. We will never be omnipresent, omniscient or omnipotent as God is. We are not eternal as God is who had no beginning. So the things that we cannot share with God (again) are His self-existence, unchangeability, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence and eternality.
    How many Bible verses do you want that talk about our conforming to the character of Christ? Read the NT, that’s what it’s all about. Start with the fruits of the Spirit.

  38. falcon says:

    You see the reason you’re not getting what’s being written here is because you have absolutely no understanding of what systematic theology is all about. Your “show me one verse” or the word “trinity” canard is so typical of those who want to skim across the surface with never going very deep.

    I’ll tell you what. Let’s just say that all of those things were left out by a giant conspiracy during the apostasy. That’s a good one-liner Mormons use with a wave of the hand to shut down anything that challenges them.

  39. liv4jc says:

    I spent 31 years of my life living in direct opposition to God. I was an agnosto-atheist that reveled in mocking Christians for their stupid belief in an imaginary grandfather-like god, and a mythological Jesus. If you had asked me however if I was a good person I would have said, “Yes”. I had never taken a gun and robbed a 7-11. I had never beaten someone for the sake of beating them, and although I drank heavily, I was not an addict. I came to understand my need for a savior from reading the Left Behind series of Christian fiction novels. If you have never read them, it is the story of those left behind on earth after the rapture of the Christian church. Those left behind are left to make a choice between serving Christ, and becoming Christians, or serving Antichrist. I aligned myself with the Christians, and through that motivation began to study who Christ was. I understood that I had “sin” in my life, but it wasn’t defined. I knew that when I accepted Christ I would need to change my life, but it turned out not wanting to be left behind wasn’t strong enough motivation. I claimed Christ as my Lord and Savior, but still drank on the weekends, still cursed, still had adulterous thoughts, and still looked at pornography. I began attending church, and even led people to Christ using the sinner’s prayer and the ABC’s: Accept that you are a sinner (whatever that is), Believe that Christ is Lord (even the demons believe, and they shudder, but are not saved), and Confess Him as Lord (for if you believe that Christ is Lord and confess Him with your mouth you will be saved). It was the magic formula. And if you ask Rick Warren, once you say those words, you are a Christian. God promised, and God cannot break a promise. This is the Christianity that Iam7en, Sub, Ralph, and OJ rail against, and rightly so. I’m not saying that anybody who came to Christ by that method is not a Christian because God knows who are His and saves men by all different types of means.

  40. liv4jc says:

    I was at home alone for a weekend and watched a video online called Hell’s Best Kept Secret . If you are a Christian and have never watched this video I encourage it. It will change your walk forever. After being a Christian for four years I at last understood sin and the gospel. This is what I realized: You shall not take the name of Yahweh your God in vain, for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. With the air that I had stolen from God to fill my lungs and feed my cells with oxygen I also operated my voice box to blaspheme His name and use it as a curse word. I had mixed the name Jesus Christ with the most vile word in the English language countless times, and loved doing it. I had used the same mouth that God had given me to eat and taste the wonderful food He had provided to sustain my life to mock Jesus Christ, and compare the miraculous incarnation of God as a story to cover up an adulterous affair. Instead of killing me on the spot, God continued to provide me with air and food to sustain my life, but a day of judgment was coming. If I stood before God with those things on my record, I deserved Hell and I knew it. You shall not murder Jesus said in Matthew 7 that hatred without cause is murder in the heart. I had been the most condescending hateful person I knew. If anyone challenged me it was an instant fight. I would spend hours fantasizing about how I would verbally or physically beat anyone that had slighted me, and when I saw them again they would know how much I hated them. I would stop at nothing to destroy their character by defaming them to everyone I met. Instead of killing me on the spot, God allowed me to live, but a day of judgment was coming. If I had stood before God with those things on my record, I deserved Hell and I knew it.

  41. subgenius says:

    “I listed a whole bunch of Bible verses detailing who God is and it’s quite clear from what these verses say that we aren’t or will never be Him”

    Hardly, but your Acts citation does remind of the notion of us, as it says, being His “offspring”…which reminds me of the notion that though the Son may one day become the Father, the Father will never be the Son….which in a way is what i am hinting above when i say the trintiy is never together in the same place at the same time, and that God has only given us a glimpse of Himself.
    So, dance around it but dispute you can not, we are commanded to “as He” “Like Him” and perfect, in the begining….Remeber Adam?
    we had already become “like” Him in character, with the knowledge of Good and Evil
    Genesis 3:22
    but what we fell short of was immortality, and thus our trial began, because it is the purpose upon ‘conversion’ to seek eternal life….or “immortality”….and thus achieving immortality we will be “like Us”.
    So we were banished from His (or rather Their) presence and set out to “work” our way back to Him.
    Now just because we may be perfect “like” God does not mean will necessarily be His equal. Surely one admits the divine nature of Jesus, but it is scripturally obvious that Jesus is not God, but God presides over Jesus.
    …again, the trintiy is Biblical Doctrine, and was never recognized by the early church…no amount of “systematics” can change the plain and simple truths.
    Ephesians 4:17-24
    pretty clear that we are being told to embody more than just “character”…new nature, new creature, new principle, and new life.

    If corrupt nature is called “man” what do you call the nature without corruption?

  42. liv4jc says:

    God said, You shall not commit adultery. Jesus said that if you look at a woman with lust you have committed adultery in your heart. That is how God uses His Law. He weighs the heart, not just the actions. I had committed adultery in both thought and deed. I had used the eyes that God had given me to protect me from the world and to survey the beauty of His creation to look at women lustfully. I had used the same eyes that God had given me to look at the healthy children he had blessed me with to look at pornography, instead of my wife. Instead of killing me on the spot God allowed me to live. He did not curse my children. I kept my job and my comfortable house, but a day of judgment was coming. If I stood before God with those things on my record I was going to go to Hell, and I deserved it. God said, You shall not steal. With the hands God had given me to bring food to my mouth, work at a trade to feed my family and raise in the air to praise His name, I had stolen $40.00 dollars from my mother’s purse as a teenager. I had held the fishing pole that I bought with the stolen money in the same two hands, then carelessly thrown it in the garage, never to use it. Not only had I stolen, but I had also coveted something that I did not even need. Instead of killing me on the spot, God allowed me to keep my hands. Those hands had served me well for 31 years, but a day of judgment was coming. If I stood before God with that one thing on my record, let alone the countless other things I had stolen, I deserved Hell and I knew it. I was not a good person. I was a blasphemous, murderous, adulterous thief, and that was only four of the commandments. I fell on my knees and begged God to forgive me for my sins. At that moment I understood how much sin Jesus had paid for on my behalf.

  43. liv4jc says:

    Do you think God owes you anything because you haven’t lied for an hour or two or looked with lust for an hour? Or haven’t stolen in years? Don’t you get it? You’re not supposed to do those things! There is no reward for keeping any law, there is only assurance that you won’t be punished because you didn’t break the law. If you do however break a law and are called in front of the judge, he must pass sentence and you must pay for your crimes. Have you broken the law of God? Does God owe you eternal life because you simply expressed belief in Jesus Christ as savior, or in Joseph Smith as prophet? Because you believed in the Book of Mormon, abstained from certain substances, food and drink, and had someone dunk you underwater? That’s foolishness! If you don’t understand that Jesus is God who paid the full penalty for your sins, repent and beg for Him to save you from the penalty of sin, you will perish. If you insist on earning a reward for doing the things you ought to anyway, you will be liable for every transgression of the law. This is what the Bible says, not me. Have you not read Galatians 3:10-13?

    For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”

  44. falcon says:

    Where do you come up with this stuff “like the trinity will never be in the same place at the same time?” This is JW kind of thinking; in other words it’s the stuff cults pull out to get Christians running down those empty rabbit trails we often speak of here. Certainly you have the capability to go deeper than this? It’s goofy, childish and just plain lame. I’m not even going to deal with it. I’d had thought that after a while you’d kind of get into the flow here a little bit but it’s the same old Mormon playbook. You are at, what jackg calls, the precontemplative stage. Mormons really aren’t worth engaging in conversation until they turn the corner and that’s why typically I write for the lurkers. I tried again, taking a chance with you, but I can see it’s a total waste of time.
    Back to the lurkers!

  45. liv4jc says:

    Sub, can I send you a book? If you are going to mock the Trinity, please at least understand what Christians believe, and why we believe it. If you read it and still insist on mocking based upon your own beliefs that is fine. No Christian can convince you of these truths. It is a work of God. And I assume you would say the same of me and the LDS faith. I have read a lot of LDS literature and have arrived at my beliefs because of it. We stand opposed, but please stop making foolish remarks based upon false information. If you don’t want me to know your shipping address that’s fine. The moderators have my email information. You can contact them and we’ll work out the details.

    [email protected]

  46. subgenius says:

    is it unreasonable for me to ask you to prove the trintiy via the OT and NT?


    Does the Bible bear record that God is manifest as the Father and the Son at the same time?
    No, it does not.
    For the Father can not be the Son, because the Father would be ‘before’ the Son. So, if God is eternal and nothing came before Him. How can the Son be before the Father?
    So, since God is infinite and the Son is finite they are in fact not the same. Though the son is divine in nature because of the Father, He is not God.
    Now if you suppose that God manifest Himself as the Son, then, for example, when He does not manifest Himself as the Son, the Son ceases to exists..again proof that the Son is not infinite.
    Now if you assume that when the Son speaks to the Father that God is manifest in both, then you are just silly and you would have us believe that He speaks to Himself, to what end?
    Now Genesis clearly shows that the Son was with present at creation….even J. Martyr states that point…

  47. grindael says:

    More Quotes:

    “Before I sit down I want to say a word to the Elders of Israel on another subject…. Cease troubling yourselves about who God is; who Adam is, who Christ is, who Jehovah is. For heaven’s sake, let these things alone. Why trouble yourselves about these things?… God is God. Christ is Christ. The Holy Ghost is the Holy Ghost. That should be enough for you and me to know. I say this because we are troubled every little while with inquiries from Elders anxious to know who God is, who Christ is, and who Adam is. I say to the Elders of Israel, stop this…. We have had letter after letter from Elders abroad wanting to know concerning these things. Adam is the first man. He was placed in the Garden of Eden, and is our great progenitor. God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Ghost, are the same yesterday, today, and forever, that should be sufficient for us to know.”(Woodruff, 1895)

    “Adam is Michael the Archangel the Father of Jesus Christ, and is our God, and Joseph Smith taught this principle.” (Journal of Wilford Woodruff; Dec 16, 1857.)

    What a contrast to this:

    “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did…” (Smith, in Teachings)

    Seems Hinckley is in denial just like President Woodruff:

    Don Latin [SFChronicle]: There are some significant differences in your beliefs [and other Christian churches]. For instance, don’t Mormons believe that God was once a man?

    Hinckley: I wouldn’t say that.There was a little couplet coined, “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.” Now that’s more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don’t know very much about.”

    I wouldn’t say that…..??????, I wouldn’t say that…..??????

  48. Mike R says:


    In your reply to Falcon you said,

    “we are to be like Him in both style and
    substance and all the facets one can infer

    Can I infer from your statement that you hope
    to become an Almighty God one day?

  49. grindael says:

    Can we get back to the topic?

    Victor Ludlow (who genius went out of his way to say was not teaching Mormon doctrine) actually WAS. What Ludlow taught IS Mormonism.

    Again, the quote:

    “In Mormon theology, law is the first cause and prime mover of the universe, and by adherence to it, people may become like God”

    Apostle B.H. Roberts said this:

    “Good and evil then, in Latter-day Saint philosophy, are not created things. Both are eternal, just as duration is, and space. They are as old as law—old as truth, old as this eternal universe. Intelligences must adjust themselves to these eternal existences; this, the measure of their duty.

    Here, Roberts is saying that intelligences, who Smith said were co-equal with God, (for according to Smith God was an intelligence once) must adjust themselves to truth, law, good & evil, space, etc. This means that God (or intelligences) are subservient to law & these principles.

    Apostle John Widstoe made it very clear:

    t must be admitted at once that the mind of man can know God only in part. One thing seems clear, however, that the Lord who is a part of the universe, in common with all other parts of the universe is subject to lt; eternal universal laws.”

    ApostleJames Talmadge sums it up with this:

    “We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement – a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the church proclaims the eternal truth: ‘As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be.'” (Articles of Faith, p. 430)

  50. grindael says:

    Here is Smith, who originated the doctrine:

    Here, then, is eternal life — to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,… To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God…. ” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 346, 347)

    Smith again:

    “Intelligence is eternal & exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age, & there is no creation about it. (Teachings, p. 207)

    So, some god somewhere or somewhen ‘organized’ these intelligences & gave them spirit bodies. These ‘intelligences’ advanced in knowledge, went to an earth, died & were resurrected & became gods. This doesn’t sound like religion, it sounds like science-fiction. How did they do it? By Obedience to Law:

    ”Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar to that through which we are now passing. He became God – an exalted being – through obedience to the same eternal Gospel truths that we are given opportunity today to obey.” (Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, p 104)

    An Official Church Booklet states:

    “God was once a man who, by obedience, advanced to his present state of perfection; through obedience and celestial marriage we may progress to the point where we become like God. God became God by Obedience to Law.” (Celestial Marriage–Key to Man’s Destiny, page 1).

    This is very basic Mormon Doctrine & has been taught in the Church since the time of Smith. It begins and ends in conundrum, & sprang out of the fertile imagination of Smith. It is not Biblical by any stretch of the imagination. Debating over the attributes of God, or if he is ONE GOD or THREE GODS, is irrelevant to this topic.

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