As has been demonstrated here on Mormon Coffee, it is difficult to pin-down LDS doctrine with references to LDS scriptures or quotes from LDS authority figures. Because of “continuing revelation”, what was true before is not necessarily true now.
Thankfully, the LDS church has an official website, www.mormon.org, where a person can find accurate, consolidated, up-to-date, LDS doctrine (at least, that part which is okay for public viewing).
I went to the website in search of the current Mormon “gospel”, as published by the church, officially. Here is the given definition:
The Gospel: “The ‘good news’ of God’s plan for the salvation of mankind. At the center of His plan is the Atoning sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ, in whom alone salvation is possible. In its fulness, the gospel includes all of the commandments, principles, ordinances, and covenants whereby human beings can be forgiven of sin, overcome the world, and attain immortality and eternal life in the kingdom of God.”
Mormon salvation is not the same as Christian salvation. The website says LDS salvation is “deliverance from sin and death”, and that “… everyone will be given the gift of resurrection, the righteous and the wicked alike.”
So salvation is not what a faithful LDS hopes to achieve. Rather, the aim is “eternal life in the kingdom of God”, which, as you can see above, requires Joseph Smith’s restored “fulness of the gospel”.
Now, the fulness of the gospel includes all of the commandments, principles, ordinances, and covenants. What are all of those? It took some digging around on the website, but I did find many of these requirements. The following is an overview of what I found, together with a brief description of each term, and some material I quoted because I thought it was interesting. Emphasis is mine.
Ready? Here we go…
The Commandments:
1- “Obedience to God’s Commandments” — (you must obey the Ten Commandments)
2- “Pray Often”
3- “Study the Scriptures” — (you must study the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price).
4- “Keep the Sabbath Day Holy”– (you must attend church and take the sacrament to renew your covenants and show “that you are willing to repent of your sins and mistakes”).
5- “Baptism and Confirmation” — (you must repent of your sins, be baptized into and confirmed a member of the LDS church).
6- “Follow the Prophet” — (you must “…have faith in God’s chosen prophet, gain conviction of his divine calling, and follow his teachings. You must prepare yourself so that when the prophets and apostles speak, the Holy Ghost can confirm the truths they teach and you can then determine to follow the counsel they give you.” Sustaining new church leaders is also part of following the prophet).
7- “Live the Law of Chastity” — (“You are to keep your thoughts clean and be modest in your dress, speech, and actions. You must avoid pornography… and treat the God-given procreative power and your body as sacred gifts. You are not to participate in abortions or homosexual or lesbian relations… those who are married to more than one person at a time may not be baptized.”)
8- “Obey the Word of Wisdom” — (“In addition to emphasizing the benefits of proper eating and physical and spiritual health, God has spoken against the use of tobacco, alcohol, coffee and tea, harmful, habit-forming drugs.”)
9- “Live the Law of Tithing” — (“A commandment from the Lord to pay one tenth of one’s annual increase or income for the building of His Church on the earth.” “Tithes and offerings are paid voluntarily and privately”).
10- “Observe the Law of the Fast” — (you must skip two meals once per month and make a “fast offering”).
11- “Obey and Honor the Law” — (you must obey “the laws of the country… to be good citizens, to participate in civil government and the political process, and to render community service as concerned citizens.”)
12- “Endure to the End” — (“If you endure to the end of your life and stay true to your covenants, you will receive eternal life.”)
The Principles:
“… include faith in Jesus Christ, prayer, repentance*, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities”, Word of Wisdom, tithing, etc.
*(Repentance is defined as “the process of experiencing sincere regret or sorrow for wrongdoing, confessing one’s sin and asking for forgiveness, making restitution for any damage done, and committing not to repeat the sin”).
The Ordinances:
An ordinance is “a sacred rite or ceremony” such as baptism, confirmation, administering to the sick, baptism for the dead, marriage in the temple, endowments, sealings. “Some ordinances, such as baptism, are essential for salvation”.
The Covenants:
A covenant is “a binding and solemn agreement, contract, or promise between God and a person or group of persons upon which eternal blessings are based.”
In Baptism and Confirmation, you “covenant with God to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, to follow Him, and to keep His commandments. In return, He promises to forgive your sins and let you return to live with Him, provided you keep your covenants”.
Mormon.org did not give a full list of covenants. Some that were not included are listed below.
During the endowment ceremony, you “solemnly covenant and promise before God, angels, and [the] witnesses at the altar that you will…”
1 – “…observe and keep the Law of the Lord and to hearken to the counsel of your husband as he hearkens unto the counsel of the Father.” (if female) or “…obey the Law of God and keep his commandments.” (if male). (“The Law of Obedience”).
2 – “…sacrifice all that you possess, even your own life if necessary, in sustaining and defending the Kingdom of God.” ( “The Law of Sacrifice”).
3 – “…avoid all lightmindedness, loud laughter, evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed, the taking of the name of God in vain, and every other unholy and impure practice.” (“The Law of the Gospel”).
4 – “…have no sexual relations except with your husband to whom you are legally and lawfully wedded.” (“The Law of Chastity”).
5 – “…consecrate yourselves, your time, talents and everything which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.” (“The Law of Consecration”).
The New Year’s Resolution list looks pretty big again this year.
Latter-day “saint”, will you be able to live “the gospel” this year? Will you next year? How about your family, friends, loved-ones?
Remember, Jesus promises to forgive your sins and let you return to live with Him, “provided you keep your covenants”.
Please consider what I have pieced together for you, above. Will you ignore it? If so, why? Do you honestly think you are doing all of what is required of you, or do you think that you don’t really have to?
“Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30)
And……?
Oh, so scandelous. You have uncovered such deep dark secrets that those deceitful mormons have hidden for so long!
In reality, in the context of traditional Christianity, I would argue that the socialist gospel of free salvation with no requirements is the aberrant and odd doctrine.
But it is nothing new. Man’s nature is to withdraw from anything that makes him accountable. Consider the Garden of Eden wherein Adam and Eve hid from God after they had eaten the forbidden fruit.
It still happens today in innumerable ways. One of which is demonstrated by those who leave the church,ultimately, because they grow tired of God’s system of accountability.
Christ’s “yoke” is not nothing. He commanded any who would follow Him to “cross” himself. This is anything but the path of least resistent you advocate.
But thank God we all have agency and can choose. (Even if evangelicals believe we cannot choose).
Good job setfree,
Where in the world do I start on this exhaustive lists of things that a person must do. I can see how Mormons get a false sense of security and I must add haughtiness. This is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ that is taught plainly in the NT. As an example we can look in the Book of Acts regarding the controversy over whether or not the believers in Jesus Christ had to obey the edicts of the Jewish law. God confirmed that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is faith in; accepting Jesus sacrifice on the Cross as total payment for our sins. PERIOD! (Acts 10:10-48) We prove we are born again by our life style choices, but salvation comes only through Jesus. This is Christianity.
Now we must remember, that salvation in Mormonism is not what it is in Christianity. Mormonism has added another layer to the program and it’s all related to their belief that they are going to become gods. So we have a two step salvation with the first step being a universal salvation offered to everyone and then the works program leading to becoming a god. Mormons don’t speak as plainly as I have just done regarding what Mormon salvation is all about. What they do is talk about the first part making it sound very evangelical in orientation. The point is to suck people into the program by any means possible and if that means withholding information so be it.
What Mormons believe is there business, but it’s not taught in the Bible. All any of us expect is that Mormons be straight forward from the get-go with people and stop hiding their doctrine and history from people they see as prospects and the rest of us for that matter.
i have to agree with the eloquence of Olsen Jim on this article and reply with an additional “And?..”.
i have read the article above twice, and don’t see the point.
But i fail to discern as the Ev does at times, perhaps there is a supplemnary text that would inform me as to “what the author meant”.
Matthew 11 is indeed an interesting chapter…and it hits the ground running in the first verse, where we learn from Jesus’s example. He “goes on” as we should. Are His teachings to John not actually teachings to us, teachings about striving, continuing, and perserverance? My friends, the word “amen” is not an ending, but rather a pistol shot to begin.
When Jesus speaks about “rest” He is calling us to our duty. This is a divine call to obedience, obedience to His commandments, etc…and He offers his assistance….that is the essence of the Gospel call, the way of rest is the way of duty……and this call must be willingly answered or it is for naught.
Yes, by choice.
While I commend setfree for the marvelous job he has done here, I must say that any such discussion is worthless with a Mormon because we don’t believe in the same God. We can argue with them all day regarding the means of salvation i.e. grace, works etc. but it’s really a useless discussion because we disagree about who God is. Mormons believe that there are millions perhaps billions of gods and that there is a progressive program by which men can become gods. This is not taught anywhere in the NT as the Gospel of Jesus Christ. So then we have to go to arguing with Mormons regarding their claim that the progression to godhood was left out of the NT by the Catholic church or whoever by some fantastic plot and conspiracy.
So before we get all wound-up in a discussion about grace and works, we need to back up and consider that we aren’t even talking about the same God. In the Mormon system, what they do makes perfect sense within the context of their religious program that will lead, they believe, to eventual deification.
It’s always instructive, of course, to consider that the Community of Christ and Temple Lot sects of Mormonism don’t buy the Salt Lake City Mormon program promoted by Brigham Young. So if I’m going to have a discussion, for example on the merits of Arminianism vs. Calvinism with a Christian it makes sense because we both believe in God. Brigham Young Mormons and their FLDS brothers are polytheists with no connection to orthodox Christianity.
So I just warn my Christian friends here, don’t waste your time running around the mulberry bush on the means of salvation with the Brighamite Mormons here. We don’t believe in the same God so they will argue from the stand point of a person who thinks they can achieve deity status through their works. They can’t of course but in the context of their religious system they’re correct. The result of their rejecting God for a god of their own making is not salvation, it’s separation from God for eternity.
I’m going to ask setfree to once again post the link to the video of the Mormon missionary who came to know Christ while on his mission. The beauty of this story is that here we have this fervent SLC Mormon kid who leaves college and gets permission to be a temple worker at a very young age and then goes on his mission ready to conquer the world for Joseph Smith. So the kid marches into the office of a Baptist minister in Florida and preaches the restored gospel of Joseph Smith. The minister listens respectfully and then ask if he can have a turn to answer. The minister than walks “Micah” through the Bible dismantling Smith’s restored gospel. Well Micah determines to study God’s Word and wouldn’t you know it, He finds Christ but not Mormonism.
It’s a great testimony to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and demonstrates that when someone, even a dedicated Mormon, opens their heart to God’s Word, how the Holy Spirit will illuminate the pure message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I believe it’s grindael who posts here who came back from his mission and got into the archives at BYU. What he found provided that V8 “bonk” moment.
That’s why after a couple of years at this on the MC blog, I realize that what we are dealing with here are hard core Mormons who have rejected the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The more they reject God’s call of love and mercy the harder their hearts become. I don’t totally understand the doctrine of election and how it works, but I do see demonstrated daily here on this blog, that there are folks who, for some reason unknown to me, continue to reject God despite His urgent call to them.
polytheists is a ridiculous and uneducated charge against Mormons, and stems from, at best, a cursory familiarty with the LDS church. Monolatrism, maybe, but polytheism is an alarmist, prejudicial, and juvenile accusation.
let us just dip our toe in…..
Psalms 86:8 reads
“Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.”
….wha?…among the gods?…what gods? huh? who did that?
The fulness of the gospel IS Jesus Christ, not a list of commands. He IS the New and Everlasting Covenant, not a command to plural marriage by JS. Jesus IS the Way, not a to-do list to check off. In short, Jesus IS the List. Jesus offers more than mere assistance. He offers the GIFT of salvation to all who believe. We are indeed justified by our faith and not our works. What a beautiful message of “good news”! The Mormon version is a message of bondage. It is a message of insecurity. It is a message of ultimate failure. The only thing we could ever merit for ourselves based on our works is eternal death. We have all sinned and, therefore, all deserve death before a Holy God. Can our works make us holy? Absolutely not. We become holy when God dwells in us, and His holiness becomes our holiness. His righteousness becomes our righteousness. This is the message of mercy and grace. Praise be to our LORD for dying for me while I was still an enemy to Him. Praise Him for blessed assurance!
Peace…
Setfree and falcon,
You both mention the resurrection and claim the LDS view of a universal resurrection is incorrect. I have asked many evangelicals about the resurrection and get many different answers.
So here is the question- will all people be resurrected? Or is this reserved for only those who are saved?
What of the statement in 1 Cor 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”
It seems pretty straight forward.
I agree with Falcon. This dialogue is going to be fruitless with OJ and Sub. It will be nothing but an endless tit for tat, and “So what? That doesn’t mean what you say it means” on both sides. Their ability to interpret the Biblical texts (in fact any text) is already tainted with the command to follow the teachings of Joseph Smith, affirm the teachings of the current prophet and affirm allegiance to the COJCLDS, not Jesus Christ only. The Bible, BoM, D&C, and PoGP are all up for reinterpretation by the current administration and individual members (what does this text mean to you?), doctrinal teachings are allowed to slip through the mind like sand through your fingers. Interpretation of meaning is the realm of the recipient, not authorial intent. The LDS rallying cry apparently is “Work is Rest!” Sure it is! Take comfort in that! Come unto me all you who desire rest from the heavy burdens laid upon you by the Pharisees and teachers of man’s religion and I will give you more WORK than the Pharisees ever dreamed of!
Dear Mr Olsen,
(and Sub)
Am I the slightest bit surprised that you took the defensive position? No. Perhaps it is the nature of Mormon Coffee.
But I need to tell you something.
I didn’t compile that information AT you.
I compiled it FOR you.
Olsen, you say that we evangelicals believe in a “socialist” system. Well, I’ll tell you what. I understand your thinking.
But you haven’t thought it through to the end.
We aren’t trying to avoid the commandments. We have already realized that we CANNOT DO THEM perfectly.
So rather than adopting a “you pay it, I’ll take it” salvation because we are lazy, we’ve done it because we are honest.
You, on the other hand, have adhered yourself to a capitalist religious system. The more you work, the more you get.
I compiled the list above because it shows YOU (not me) how very hard you have it. You are the one who has to do the impossible. What you are not admitting, is that you, also, CANNOT.
How many Mormons are going to be able to keep all their covenants, so that they can be forgiven?
This is the question you can not? will not? answer. Isn’t it?
ARE
YOU
GOOD
ENOUGH????
falcon… http://www.livinghopeutah.org/adamsroad.htm
Salvation is not a partially finished work of Jesus which He needs my help to complete. Salvation is not a spiritual mop or broom, which Jesus paid for with His life and God then uses to clean up whatever mess I’ve left behind after “all [I] can do.” Salvation is a free gift which has a result in the lives of people. The result in my life has been very clear. I want, so very much, to please Jesus, and I have a knowledge, born of the presence of the Holy Spirit within me and assisted by time in prayer and the Word of God, regarding how to go about doing so. I know when I have grieved the Holy Spirit by being disobedient, unkind, deceitful, ungrateful, and so on. I don’t need to consult a list. I also don’t need to fear that I have lost my salvation when I sin, but I go to my Father in Heaven and ask for forgiveness, in the name of Jesus, and ask for strength to go on in a better way. I know that I have been “bought with a price” (that I could never have paid) and that my Mediator, Jesus (the one Mediator between God and man), acts on my behalf.
Salvation is a free gift. (Ephesians 2:8-9, NKJV; Titus 3:5, NKJV) Works which are pleasing to God are the result. (Titus 2:14, NKJV; Galatians 5:22, NKJV: Ephesians 5:9, NKJV) We will be rewarded for those works (Luke 6:35, NKJV; Revelation 22:12, NKJV) but they in no way earn (or help us to earn) our salvation. Many people just cannot accept that they do not need to help God save them. It is actually a terrible act of disobedience is to insist on doing, not what God asks of us; namely, to receive the free gift of salvation purchased with the precious blood of His sinless Son, Jesus, but to try and earn our own salvation. Make no mistake, we were created for good works (Ephesians 2:10, NKJV; Philippians 2:13, NKJV), but they do not contribute to our salvation. (Colossians 2:6-24, NKJV)
The problem with the LDS view of universal resurrection is that Mormonism espouses the belief that resurrection and salvation are the same thing; i.e. each person will resurrect and be saved in either the telestial, terrestrial, or celestial kingdom, of which even the telestial kingdom will be a far better existence than our current existence. So, it’s not that LDS believe in a universal resurrection, it’s that they believe in a universal salvation. Once again, the arguments go nowhere because we are not operating from the same presuppositions. Mormonism has watered down salvation in order to make room for works-righteousness: “I’m going to be a god because I did everything I was supposed to do. See, I have checked all the boxes.” To Mormons, praising God for eternity is not good enough. Resting in Jesus Christ is not good enough. Always, the push is in the doing. They lose sight of what God is really all about, and that is relationships. We will be judged according to our works, because our works will show whether or not we really were followers of Jesus Christ as we claimed. Will we be perfect in our works? No. But, we can be perfect in our love for God and our fellowmen; our motives will be perfect. If we don’t see things from the perspective of relationships, we will miss the point of what God is trying to do in and through us.
Peace…
Setfree, excellent article, and it is impossible to deny the fact that because no one can keep God’s commandments perfectly, keeping the LDS commandments is not only impossible also, it is of no use. If you fail at one, you fail at the other. The LDS charge that Ev’s believe that we can admit faith in Christ, then go live however we want, believing we are eternally saved by an admission that Jesus is the Christ. They see our justification equation like this:
Faith = Justification, while theirs is Justification = Faith Works
In reality their system is the one that actually promotes easy believism because one can affirm faith in Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith/Thomas Monson as prophet, and the COJCLDS as the one true church, get baptized, and resurrection to a kingdom is assured. Everyone knows (or should know) that it is impossible to actually achieve the greatest reward in this life. This is where eternal progression comes in. “If I can’t do it now, I’ll do it in the next life, or settle for a lesser reward, which is still better than this life. And because nobody can do it, at least my family will be with me.” This is why so many LDS give up, even though they feign obedience amongst their LDS friends. It is truly the impossible gospel, and is no gospel at all. When you understand the true Biblical gospel, our justification equation actually looks like this:
Faith = Justification by Grace Works (Ephesians 2:4-10). I’m praying that this post reaches lurkers like no other. Remember, “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithfull and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.” (1 John 1:8-10) I have personally tried to walk LDS through the 10 Commandments. They will not freely admit that they are sinners, only that “nobody is perfect”, certainly not them, yet perfection is the standard.
Is the resurrection universal? Anybody?
The questions I ask are:
1) How many of these are in the Bible?
Those that are Scriptural we are commanded to obey. We will fail.
2) What do those things that are Scriptural have to do with salvation?
Everything and Nothing. The law must be fulfilled. We are commanded to do so. We cannot and fail over and over. But we have One who did perfectly fulfill the law – the Lord Jesus Christ. By faith we are saved through His finished work of salvation accomplished through Christ’s perfectly fulfilling the law and dying for sin in our place. Our sin is placed on Him, His righteousness is given to us. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ for His mercy! Our salvation belongs 100% to the Lord, 0% to us. The law shows us we cannot save ourselves, gives us a guide for life, and acts as a curb to sin in the world – not necessarily in that order. It does not save us, grant us access to the highest heaven, or in any way improve our standing before God. Jesus has accomplished all that.
Olsen Jim
Are you good enough? Will you ever be?
If you are going to avoid the topic out here by going on rabbit trails, at least ask yourself…
You are acting like this post is about whether or not resurrection is universal. This post is not
about that. It’s not about what the Mormons think about that. This post is all the commandments you have to keep, and how well.
There are 2 types of death in this world – physical and spiritual. Physical death is when the spirit and body seperate, while spiritual death is where we are seperated from Heavenly Father’s presence. Jesus overcame both through the atonement. His resurrection overcame physical death; His suffering for our sins even though He lived a perfect life overcame spiritual death. Our resurrection is part of salvation because without a resurrection we would remain a spirit for eternity and become subject to Satan (2 Nephi 9:8-10). This is a free gift to all regardless of whether they believe in Jesus or not.
The second part of salvation is usually termed exaltation, which is living with Heavenly Father for eternity. This is based on our faith in Jesus and His ability to give us forgiveness for our sins. Our faith will be judged on the Day of Judgment by the life we lived (ie our works/deeds/acts) according to our faith in Jesus. This means that we could live a perfect life, follow all the commandments to the letter, receive all of the ordinances and make all of the covenants but if we did not have faith in Jesus, then we could not make it to be with Heavenly Father.
However, if we have true faith in Jesus, Our faith will allow us to believe in every word He tells us including what He tells us He wants us to do. It will also inspire allow us to do it. This includes all of what Setfree mentions above. So on the Day of Judgment, our faith throughout our life will be judged by what we did with it. And if we followed Jesus and what He wanted us to do then our faith will not be found lacking. Remember Jesus told the rich young man that he had to live the commandments AND SELL ALL THAT HE HAD, GIVE TO THE POOR AND FOLLOW HIM. He still required a sacrifice as well as following Him.
So it is not working our way to heaven as the above article is trying to portray, it is showing our faith in Jesus by doing what He wants us to do.
OJ, yes, everyone who has ever died will be resurrected for judgment. Revelation 20:11-12 tells us this much, but it also tells us books were opened, and another book was opened. That singular book is the Book of Life. The dead were judged according to their works, by the things that were written in the books. These are not the Book of Life. Those whose names are in the Book of Life were written there before the foundation of the world, which are the same who were elected for salvation before the foundation of the world (see Ephesians 1, Daniel 12:1, Revelation 3:5, Phillipians 4:3, etc.). Those whose names are found in the books, including Death and Hades, were judged according to their works (vs. 13). Those who are judged according to their works and Death and Hades, and anyone whose name was not written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13-15). Those whose names are in the Book of Life will not undergo judgment. “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears my words My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.” (John 5:24,25). The dead cannot hear without new life granted by the washing of regeneration of the Holy Spirit (John 3:5-8, Titus 3:5). This is explained in detail in Ephesians 2. Those of us (all of us) who were dead in trespasses and sins and walked according to the course of this world were made alive by God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses and sins made us alive together with Christ, by grace we have been saved (Ephesians 2:1-5 paraphrase).
Those who have ears to hear will.
Setfree,
I am sorry, but the people who make arguments like yours really seem to have a very limited ability to think through this issue. Your claims about what we believe (i.e. we save ourselves through our works) are false. No matter how many times it is explained, you repeatedly claim the same things. I am left to conclude that you are unable to understand our doctrine.
Christ likened the whole deal to the law of the harvest. Think about that. Does the wheat grow without the effort of the farmer?
The farmer prepares the soil. He plants the seeds. He removes the weeds and, depending on the climate, he may also work to provide water for the crop.
But God provides the miracle in the seed that results in germination. He provides the sunlight that drives the process. He sends the rain that waters the crop. He also provides the farmer with the air he breathes and gives him the strength to perform his labors.
Without God, a harvest is impossible. But the farmer must do his part.
The greater the effort, the greater the reward and harvest. This is as fair a system as one could imagine. And it is what Christ taught.
The socialist gospel is one of favoritism and laziness- let somebody else do for you what you can do for yourself. (I am talking about things we CAN do). We are supposedly saved by a mental act- believing Christ is the Savior. According to you, it has nothing to do with how hard we try to be good and obey- nothing to do with honest, humble effort. It is as false a gospel as is possible.
God expects me to discipline myself by not lusting after women to whom I am not married. He expects me to cross myself and not steal what is not mine. He expects me to return to him 10% of my increase to show my gratitude to him. You get the idea. WE CONTRIBUTE A GREAT DEAL TO WHAT WE BECOME.
We believe God wants us to become something great. You believe He needs creatures to sing to Him.
Ralph,
That’s a terrific story from the Bible to explain exactly what I am trying to say above.
The man came to Jesus, CONFIDENT THAT HE HAD KEPT ALL THE COMMANDMENTS
and Jesus said…
it’s not enough.
Of course, Jesus knew that the man had not kept all of the commandments. The Bible says (and don’t you believe?) that Jesus was the only one, ever, to be perfect.
Your church has exceeded Jesus’ commandments. It has made it IMPOSSIBLE for you to do. I want to ask you right now, do you or do you not agree with that? You said that if someone has perfect enough faith, they CAN do it. But is that person you? Is that person ANYONE?
So then, faith in Jesus, the perfect kind that makes it so Ralph can live perfectly all of the LDS commandments, do you have that much faith Ralph? If not, when will you?
The man in the Bible was counting on his works, same as you are doing.
However, the Bible says our works are filthy rags to God. The only righteousness that we can do that pleases Him is trusting Jesus with it all.
Jesus came to really shine the light on what the law was supposed to be showing us. That no matter how good we think we are, WE AREN’T!
Jesus didn’t say “no, you can’t just keep all the commandments, you have to sacrifice all you have, as well”. What He did was to recognize that man’s greatest weakness… his love and dependence on his wealth.
If Jesus were to meet you today, Ralph, He would certainly know your greatest weakness. Perhaps, it is that you think all of your works, everything good you put up with and do, all the things you “handle” in your life… that this is a pride issue in your heart, and you need to stop it.
Love ya, buddy
OJ, where in the Bible does God liken our “good works” or “commandment keeping” to a farmer or a harvest?
btw, it’s not “my” claim (that you are saved by your works)
it’s an official church position
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-commandments/baptism-and-confirmation
You know . . . oh, I just don’t have the strength. See you all on the next one (maybe). 🙂
Ralph and OJ, I suggest you read Romans 4. You have already met all of the qualifications for failure and judgment in Romans 1 and 2 and 3. You refuse to believe Romans 3:19-31, but you want God to reward you for your good works, while forgiving you for the sins you commit multiple times every single day. Does God owe you a reward for the good that you do? It seems that he does. You worked the field as a farmer, he owes you your wages. If you are working for a reward, then grace ceases to be grace. Does keeping a commandment cancel out breaking a commandment? God owes no human anything but punishment for the sins that they commit. You fit into that category just like every other human being on this planet unless you are completely saved by the grace of God.
Every day you wake up you vow to keep the commandments and ordinances. Every day you fail. Can you admit that you break multiple commandments every day, yet you seek a reward? Remember, perfection is the standard.
setfree
i assume your link was meant to reference “endurance to the end”?http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-commandments/endure-to-the-end
which brings us to Philippians 2:12
simply claiming that Mormons believe we are only “saved by our works” is a dishonest representation.
unless of course you mean to contradict this statement from your link
“In return, He promises to forgive your sins and let you return to live with Him, provided you keep your covenants”…do you contest this statement?
I was talking to my go to guy Andy Watson today and he said I should bring-up D&C 82:7. Anybody have that?
So this is what our Mormon friends are telling us (that we don’t understand), they don’t have to do anything to become a “god”? Is that what we Christians are not understanding. That becoming a god is a free gift that the Mormon male does not have to merit or work for? God gives it to him for free. So ALL Mormon males will become gods regardless of what they accomplish in this world or the next.
OK, I guess I’m wrong and setfree really blew-it with his article and all the former Mormons posting here don’t get it either. So here it is:
BECOMING A MORMON god IS A FREE GIFT THAT THE MORMON NEITHER DESERVES OR CAN EARN BUT IT IS A FREE GIFT THAT THE MORMON god OFFERS THE MORMON BASED ON FAITH IN 1)Joseph Smith 2) the Mormon religion 3) the current prophet 4) the BoM and lastly in case you need Him, Jesus. BECOMING A god IS NOT DEPENDENT ON ANYTHING A MORMON CAN DO.
There, do we have the Mormon belief accurately articulated now?
Well OK, I guess I have to do this myself:
“and now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return saith the Lord your God” D&C 82:7
Now compare that to what the Bible tells us:
“For there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.” (Romans 8:1-2)
The Mormon D&C 82:7 could read: “…for there is no relief from your sins. You are always under condemnation. There is no hope for you if you sin, for if you sin ALL of the sins that you previously committed will return to you”.
Joseph Smith’s restored gospel is a pretty miserable thing. Under this gospel, the Mormon is always condemned. So I guess if the Mormon can be beat down enough, they can be controlled. No wonder Mormons have no assurance that they will grab the big brass ring of godhood. Oh wait a minute everyone is saved regardless of what they do in life. This is general or universal salvation that everyone gets whether they have faith or not. But if they sin all their sins will return but they’ll still be saved because everyone is (saved). OK if you hold this up and twist it just a little bit and tilt it backwards and spin around five times and spit on the ground and jump up and down in the light of the moon……you’ll be able to understand all of this.
Can anyone find Joseph Smith’s restored gospel in the NT? I can’t!
I am troubled by some statements by mormon authorities and mormon scriptures on the issue being discussed. Perhaps our mormon friends could clarify? This is the first in a series of statements & questions on this topic. (I am striving for brevity).
In the Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer Kimball defined the gospel as a “code of laws and commandments” by which we “might attain perfection and, eventually, godhood.” He says: “this set of laws and ordinances…is the ONLY plan which will EXALT mankind.” (MOF:6)
Gospel Principles tells us that Jesus is a mediating “creditor” who essentially refinances our sin “debt” and sets the “terms” and conditions by which we can “pay” the “debt” to him through strict adherence to gospel “laws.” (page 75,77). This is expressed in the BOM: “…for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER all we can do.” (2 Ne:25:23)
Kimball again:
“This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. In his Sermon on the Mount he made the command to all men: ‘Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.’ (Matt. 5:48) Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal.” (MOF:208)
Kimball tells us we MUST do this in THIS LIFE (MOF:7,9-10) This is reaffirmed in the BOM: (Alma 34:32).
Here, Kimball explains what Repentence IS, and IS NOT:
“There is no royal road to repentance….There is one way only. It is a long road spiked with thorns and briars and pitfalls and problems….There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of the sin….THE SAVING POWER DOES NOT EXTEND to him who merely wants to change his life (what is Faith then????).…Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin…. To ‘TRY’ is weak. To ‘do the best I can’ is not strong. We must always do better than we can….There must be resoluteness and determination. Discontinuance of the sin must be permanent….Do you wish to carry this terrible burden all your days or would you like to be forgiven for it? To be forgiven one must repent. Repentance means not only to convict yourselves of the horror of the sin, but to confess it, abandon it, and restore to all who have been damaged to the total extent possible; then SPEND THE BALANCE OF YOUR LIVES TRYING (I thought ‘trying’ was not good enough????) to live the commandments of the Lord so he can EVENTUALLY pardon you….Repentance must involve an all-out, total surrender to the program of the Lord….God CANNOT forgive unless the transgressor shows a true repentance which spreads to all areas of life….This passage indicates an attitude which is basic to the sanctification we should all be seeking, and thus the repentance which merits forgiveness. It is that the former transgressor must have reached a ‘point of no return’ to sin wherein there is not merely a renunciation but also a deep abhorrence of the sin — where the sin becomes most distasteful to him and where the desire or urge to sin is cleared out of his life.” (MOF:149, 163-165, 176, 200, 203, 354-355)
Question 1: Does Baptism in the Mormon Church wipe away all sin? (Yes, I mean if you are sincere and ‘repent’ & have faith, etc. , not something phony). Are you saved by the Grace of Christ when you are Baptized?
Amen Falcon.. Yes, D&C 82:7 is heartbreaking news. Where can I sign up for THAT program?
Olsen, Sub.. Setfree asked a simple question with the article and the two of you start going off on tangents and you dont even answer the question he posed. Childish at best.
I’ll repeat it since you seem to have missed it.
“Do you honestly think you are doing all of what is required of you, or do you think that you don’t really have to?”
It seems like you have a really hard time looking at yourself in the mirror and admitting to your broken humanity. You instead choose to throw snide comments into the mix to get a rise and pull people off track. In fact, I don’t think I have seen an ounce of humility from Mormon posters on here yet I have seen countless times, evangelicals declaring their great need for the un-blemished Lamb of God.
Ralph, I do like your comments because you give your honest answer and you don’t attack anyone. Your story did seem to backfire on you, that is, if you look at it from our perspective.
When it comes to salvation, humanity is way out of its league. Sin is an illness that no amount of exercise or healthy eating can heal or even slightly cure. Your only hope is to turn to Christ who has/IS the only cure, and he gives it freely to those who believe that He is the ONLY way, not part, not some, not most, ALL!
Set Free,
I thought the picture of the man trying to push
that huge boulder uphill aptly represented the
sincere Mormon’s attempt to live the gospel as
interpretated by their Prophets and Apostles.
Since Mormon Prophets and Apostles’ definition
of the Gospel exceeds the scriptures definition,
it comes as no surprise that today a cup of
coffee in the morning will serve as a severe
enough departure of their gospel as to deny a
person’s entrance into their Father’s home(Temple).
You know, it’s pretty self righteous to think everyone can be “as good as you”. Some people struggle with sin more than others. Some people are born into homelessness and poverty so they are more prone to steal. Some people are born without what people would call physical beauty so they are left to lust and fantasize because no one offers the love they desire. Not everyone is born into a nice low-crime neighborhood with upper-middle class parents, a good education, and have no worry in the world except getting good grades and doing everything necessary to become a god.
That’s why I choose Christ of the Bible, who meets people in the darkness, shows them love, compassion, joy, gentleness, and imputes His righteousness upon them so they can live with confidence, peace, and gratitude for their Savior. A person pulled up from the gutter of our streets will show more gratitude and humility than some silver-spooned kid doing it “all for the exaltation.”
Who’s works would Christ prefer?
Does God ‘owe’ us anything for obeying his commands?
I think where the Mormon pride comes in is that they look at the impossible standard set by their religion and than they appropriate the expectations as if they have been achieved, a reality in their lives. We see the bragging that goes on with our Mormon posters regarding their religion’s high moral standards. It’s as if they are living vicariously through the standards believing they are the standards.
Look I grow-up in the legalistic Catholic system of the past. Although I haven’t practiced the religion for forty years, I have the strong sense that it’s not the strict system of my youth.
In the Catholic system I grew-up in, I could never get good enough, no matter how hard I tried. I was always falling short and having to run off to confession. I’d get some momentary relief, but as soon as I walked out the door of the church, I’d commit some minor transgression. We had mortal sins and venial sins and hell and purgatory. Christ’s death on the cross it seemed, made it possible for us to get into heaven if we were good enough. The upside of course was that I developed a very strong moral sense of what was right and wrong. The down-side was that that awareness made me miserable realizing how hopeless my situation was.
I eventually lost faith in the Catholic religious system because of a lot of inane stupidity and hypocricy of the church. Unfortunately, I equated the church with God and figured that there couldn’t be a God based on my observations and experiences in the Catholic faith.
I can very much relate to Mormons who are overcome and discouraged by the Mormon religious system and teachings. I understand why they loose faith in the organization and God and want nothing to do with it. Thankfully, through the grace of God, I learned that Christ’s vicarious atonement on the cross was for me, personally and that God’s sacrifice could do for me what I couldn’t do for myself.
In his letter to the Galatians Paul writes “For through the Law I died to the law, that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me. I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.” (Galatians 2:19-21)
Mormons have recreated the Law thinking that somehow they can gain a level of righteousness that will result in a reward. The reward in this instance is becoming a god. Now this makes sense within their system of progression to deity status. But the gospel of Joseph Smith is not only a false gospel, it’s repulsive! It’s repulsive on many levels but the primary one is that they reject God for a polytheistic system were logically there are father gods, and grandfather gods, uncle gods and cousin gods. There is a plethora of gods just truckin all over the time space continuum waiting to welcome the Mormon male into this exclusive club.
Is this taught any where in the NT; i.e. that men may progress to gods? No, it’s not there.
But if Satan can get people to reject God and in the process think that they themselves can be a god, his mission is accomplished. Satan doesn’t really care if Mormons dress themselves up in a cloak of supposed righteousness and godly living. He doesn’t even care if they act hyperspiritual. In fact, all the better to disguise the ugliness behind the pretty mask.
The Bible tells us that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. It also tells us that the antichrist will do things that if possible could even fool the elect. Searching God’s Word for the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ will reveal that Mormonism is a cruel joke. A system where people try to earn their reward rather than except God’s free offer of eternal life and then cooperate with the Spirit of God in transformational living.
rvales
“Does God ‘owe’ us anything for obeying his commands?
The simple answer is “yes”. Now before you flip out, realize that my simple answer is based on the covenants we enter into with God….covenants He has put forth. Surely you agree that God honors His promises.
This is an interesting comment, rvales, because i figured you would goosestep with the Calvinists on this board.
But take a gaze at verses like Hosea 6:7 , where there is evidence of the Covenant which exists for “obedience”.
Just as God is bound by having to punish us when we disobey, He is also bound to reward us when we obey.
Are you suggesting that “commandments” are not a covenant?
jeffrey b
how is D&C 82:7 heartbreaking? have you ever read John 8:10-11 or Ezekial 3:20 for starters?
Enlighten me as to what “repent and forsake” are supposed to mean?
are you paying attention to falcon or to the scriptures? because you are being led astray my friend.
and to answer your ‘repeated’ question above….yes to part one….no to part two.
and for your information, the Ev poster here, typically “testifies” when all else fails. Are you able to point out the mormon posts that specifically deny the need of Jesus in salvation? (i will constantly remind you of this question, as you say above, “in case you missed it”)
Mike R
the picture of the man pushing the boulder uphill is, i assume, an homage to the myth of Sisyphus. Quite a silly analogy here, considering i am not, nor have i met any such “frustrated” Mormons. Nevertheless, an amusing insult, but an insult none the less.
falcon
“There, do we have the Mormon belief accurately articulated now?”
…as usual, no ‘you’ do not. (who is “we” in that sentence?)
lather, rinse, repeat
Sub-
What I’m suggesting is that not sinning is what we are supposed to do. When you drive the speed limit police don’t stop you and reward you for obeying the laws. God doesn’t have to give us anything for following the rules. That is just what we are supposed to do. And since breaking one rule renders us ineligible for being in his presence we could NEVER gain a reward such as being in heaven. He is completely within his bounds to strike us dead as soon as we sin (which means I wouldn’t have made it out of bed this morning!) God does not have to reward us for obeying his commands and thankgoodness he doesn’t reward us and punish us based on our ability to follow his commands because we each fail miserably daily. No one on this board would suggest that we don’t have to obey but instead that in all our feeble attempts to obey we will fail miserably. This recurring debate reminds me of the chicken and the egg…which came first Works or Salvation?
Sub, what have you done that merits reward such as spending eternity in Heaven? What have you done that keeps you from being punished for the transgressions you do commit?
rvales asked, “Does God ‘owe’ us anything for obeying his commands?”
Wow, what a profound question. How one answers this reveals the understanding or misunderstanding of man’s condition before a holy God. The answer cannot be anything other than “no.” To assume that we could put God in the position of debtor is dangerously heretical. We are dead to right, born sinners, and Sovereign God does not have to do anything to save us. But, His character, rooted in love, compels Him to redeem us and reconcile us to Himself. That is the essence of mercy and grace. That is the Good News of the gospel of Jesus Christ–which is not the same message of JS–that God emptied Himself, took on the form of a man, humbled himself, was obedient to death (Phil.2:6-8), so that we might be saved by believing in Jeus Christ as the image of the Invisible God (Col.1:15). Our works will then naturally flow as a response to God’s grace in our lives because we want to please Him–not to earn anything by our works; however, we will do works, the works which God prepared in advance for us to do (Eph.2:9-10).
To suggest that God owes us anything is like saying a convicted murderer who was spared the death penalty would some time down the road come back to the judge with a list of his good works and tell the judge that he has to let him out of prison all together–that the judge somehow owes him for being good.
Peace…
Jim Olsen (specifically) and Sub and Ralph,
You guys are dive-bombing this blog. How about settling down for a second to engage in the topic at hand.
Will ONE of you to answer the question:
Are you good enough for the demands of your religion?
Regarding Kimball’s attempt to explain the meaning of Matthew 5:48: we cannot forget the context of the passage, which is the teaching by Jesus that we ought to love our enemies. Jesus is admonishing us to be perfect in love. This is the essence of the teachings of Jesus Christ. The 10 commandments are not abolished, but broken down into two simple categories: love God and love neighbor as self. We can be perfect in love. The entire sermon on the mount is not aimed at the fruit of sin, but at the root of sin. “Don’t commit adultery” is bottom-lined to “don’t lust.” The root of all sinful behavior is insufficient love for God and others. Jesus got to the heart of the matter. In the economy of God, it is all about relationships and how we treat Him and each other. Kimball’s interpretation of this passage is merely an exercise in biblical eisegesis without respect for context; subsequently, he teaches false doctrine that is void of God’s grace and reveals a lack of understanding in the character and purposes of God.
Mormonism does not offer the peace that comes with being justified by our faith, but an existence of uncertainty and fear. Here’s what God’s Word has to say about this: “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand” (Romans 5:1-2a).
I have found the Book of Colossians in my journey out of Mormonism to speak directly against the LDS Church and its teachings–especially chapter 2. It really speaks against legalism, which is a mark of Mormonism. I would encourage all Mormons to read it without the slanted commentary of false prophets. I know that’s a tall order and, probably, most won’t follow through, but I had to put it out there.
Peace…
Excellent jackg,
Good to have you back. As an exMormon your insights are very much appreciated. I’d be interested in you sharing how, your view of who God is and what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is, changed from your days as a dedicated Mormon to now as a born again Christian. There must have been a light bulb moment where you realized that you were not serving the Living God and His Christ and that you were in a false religious system.
I must say, every time I read your posts I am impressed with what God has done for you not only on an intellectual level but on a spiritual level. In-other-words, it’s just not head knowledge with you. You’ve integrated what God has revealed to you into your Christian witness.
I would also be curious as to what your understanding was as far as how you were going to achieve deity status. What were you going to have to do?
Thanks for your response.
falcon
a couple of thoughts.
from what i remember of (and have learned since leaving) mormonism, you are able to get around your own sins two ways: 1) by denying/hiding them, and 2) by finding other people’s sins. For instance, if you have kids, and they seem to get into less trouble than the bishops kids, it means you are at least as good as the bishop, and therefore righteous! Righteousness is relative, is what I mean.
the other thought… Galatians 3:19-25. Mormons have added commandments to their commandments, in hopes of even better rewards than just “life after death”
however, the Bible clearly teaches that the commandments were just put here to “bring us to Christ”. And when we have faith in CHrist “we are no longer under a schoolmaster”. The commandments are supposed to be a mirror, to force us to look at ourselves realistically.
Christ was a truer mirror. He is both the way we know that we are failures, and the cure for our failure.
Jim calls this “socialism”. But we who have faith in (the real) Christ are used by Him in ways those who are under the law cannot. While they sit, paying all attention to themselves and how good they’re doing, we have left “self” behind, to become vessels for Christ’s use. Does that help make that more clear?
Not that we’re always super-good at leaving Self. But that is what He wants. An abandonment of our everything, so that He can make us what He wants us to be, and use us how He wants to. 🙂
Subgenius, your “lather, rinse, repeat” slogan has outlived its welcome. Please be advised that the Mormon Coffee moderators will now card any future comment in which it is found.
Setfree,
I am not perfect. Far from it. Is that a revelation for you? Of course I am not, neither is any other human on the planet. I am not good enough on my own to merit anything. When have I ever claimed anything else?
But I also know what God expects of me. And it is more than simply acknowledging that His son is my Savior.
rvales- I would say God doesn’t “owe” us anything for our obedience. But He has covenanted and promised us certain blessings if we keep our covenants. And because He is a God of truth and does not lie, He will ALWAYS keep his promises. So while He doesn’t owe us anything, certain blessings are ensured by our obedience.
Jeffrey b- not sure if all your post was directed at me or others. As far as needing Christ- I will repeat I can only conclude that the non-LDS posters here cannot understand our doctrine or they choose to misrepresent it. It is not rocket science, yet there really seems to be a mental block here. I have yet to read any of you at least restate our doctrine correctly. Even though I don’t expect you to agree with it, I would hope you could at least understand it and restate it fairly and accurately- and that has not happened. We are all too much invested in winning an argument I suppose.
liv4jc- thanks for answering my simple question. But my guess is that not every EV here would agree with you.
There is much that we cannot do for ourselves. But God expects us to do what we can for ourselves. Bottom line. Christ is the only means of salvation. That does not remove all responsibility from our shoulder.
I was eating lunch with an LDS friend of mine some time ago. He had been “called” to give a fireside to the ward youth. He had a postcard when he was on his mission, but it had been lost over time. The picture on the card depicted a workhorse saddled with a heavy yolk. Running from the yolk were large chains affixed to a wagon laiden with a heavy load. The horse was working in a storm, and it was striving with all its might to pull the wagon against the wind-driven snow, almost as if the load was too heavy to pull. He related how he wanted to use that picture to illustrate to the boys that working for the Lord was like being that horse. It would be very hard and you never knew why you were working or what you were working for, but you know it will be worth it in the end. I sat there is stunned silence thinking, “How can that possibly be motivational?” My mind instantly went to Matthew 11:28-30. He then told me that he was overjoyed to find a copy of the picture at a sporting goods store. He said he purchased it instantly to use in his talk.
Sub, you quoted Philippians 2:12, but you didn’t quote verse 13. Is that because it doesn’t fit your soteriology? “for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” Being the Calvinist that I am I think it dovetails nicely with Romans 8:28-29, “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.” I’m thinking that teaches that whatever God purposes, he will accomplish in His elect, even conforming us to the image of His Son through obedience.
Jim,
You said: “I am not perfect. Far from it…Of course I am not, neither is any other human on the planet.”
I trust that you mean this.
I understand that you think we ought to do what we can. But, according to YOUR religion, your scriptures, and your prophets, trying is not good enough. You can’t come “most of the way” and then Jesus will “do the rest”. That simply is not your doctrine. I know you think it is, I know that most Mormons think it is. We (myself included, when I was a Mormon) all live like it is because, I think because everyone else believes this.
What I was hoping to let you see, by writing the article, was evidence that the LDS church teaches that it IS possible to be perfect (in this life) and that nothing short of that is acceptable.
I know you have no reason to believe me. To you, I am an enemy. But to me, you are a person who is trapped in a system that you are not seeing with clean glasses.
In the temple, a speaker informs everyone, AND I QUOTE: “: “If you proceed and receive your full endowment, you will be required to take upon yourselves sacred obligations, the violation of which will bring upon you the judgment of God; for God will not be mocked. If any of you desire to withdraw rather than accept these obligations of your own free will and choice…”
Later, Lucifer says “I have a word to say concerning these people. If they do not walk up to every covenant they make at these altars in this temple this day, they will be in my power!”
I’m not putting this here for dramatic effect. I want YOU to know.. you have put yourself under Satan’s power, by making covenants you can’t keep, and by not keeping them…
It is not a matter of what you have always thought. You need to look at what they are really saying, and see if you still think you should be a part of it.
God bless
setfree
i will answer your question…yes, all of us are.
Even those who falsely believe that God asks more of us than we can give.
2 Cor 9:8
Ephesians 3:20
jackg
perhaps you could explain to this simple Mormon what a “covenant” is?
Or if we start slow, how is this stament NOT true “A covenant is a sovereign pronouncement of God by which He establishes a relationship of responsibility between God and man”?
Sharon
i apologize, i did not realize that phrase was offensive, i will heed your advice, thank you.
liv4jc
no i did not purposely omit verse 13, it leads nicely into 14-16 as well, don’t you think?
rvales
not to detract from your speeding laws analogy, but the God i believe in is not a purely punitive God as you propose. He both rewards and punishes in the Bible i read. So to correct your analogy, if i was going the speed limit and God did happen to “pull me over”, He would surely reward me…..because He said He would.
as for the “what have i done” question…is it not obvious that the answers to that are not for me to say? Am i the one who will judge my deeds when it comes time to reward or punish?
Sub your right we don’t judge but it seems LDS doctrine dictates that there are things that you have to do to be saved what about the ‘laws’ you break. If you get caught speeding once and then get caught obeying the speed limit is the former transgression negated?
A couple of people commented on the picture I used for this article. I honestly didn’t use it so much for the picture, as for the caption.
I think it is comforting for people to have a “to-do list”, something they can measure themselves against. Much more comfortable than to, say, surrender their life and their desires completely to the whim and control of their Maker.
But the efforts we make to be good… they’re neither pleasing to God, nor are they making us good. Sub said “we all are”. Worthy enough to make it in Mormonism, I think you’re saying, sub? Jim is the one that really nailed it, by saying that none of us are.
NONE OF US ARE.
NONE OF US ARE.
You have two options, should you choose to stop “acting” and start thinking. You can accept the fact that you aren’t good enough and YOU NEVER WILL BE, and fall on your face and beg God to save you from yourself, accepting Jesus as your Savior, payment in full for all of your sins, and start a brand new life as His creature to do with as He pleases…
or
you can keep pushing at the boulder, thinking it’s getting you somewhere.
Those of us who have left Mormonism for Christianity have done that. We left our “filthy rags” works behind to become perfect the way God does it