As has been demonstrated here on Mormon Coffee, it is difficult to pin-down LDS doctrine with references to LDS scriptures or quotes from LDS authority figures. Because of “continuing revelation”, what was true before is not necessarily true now.
Thankfully, the LDS church has an official website, www.mormon.org, where a person can find accurate, consolidated, up-to-date, LDS doctrine (at least, that part which is okay for public viewing).
I went to the website in search of the current Mormon “gospel”, as published by the church, officially. Here is the given definition:
The Gospel: “The ‘good news’ of God’s plan for the salvation of mankind. At the center of His plan is the Atoning sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ, in whom alone salvation is possible. In its fulness, the gospel includes all of the commandments, principles, ordinances, and covenants whereby human beings can be forgiven of sin, overcome the world, and attain immortality and eternal life in the kingdom of God.”
Mormon salvation is not the same as Christian salvation. The website says LDS salvation is “deliverance from sin and death”, and that “… everyone will be given the gift of resurrection, the righteous and the wicked alike.”
So salvation is not what a faithful LDS hopes to achieve. Rather, the aim is “eternal life in the kingdom of God”, which, as you can see above, requires Joseph Smith’s restored “fulness of the gospel”.
Now, the fulness of the gospel includes all of the commandments, principles, ordinances, and covenants. What are all of those? It took some digging around on the website, but I did find many of these requirements. The following is an overview of what I found, together with a brief description of each term, and some material I quoted because I thought it was interesting. Emphasis is mine.
Ready? Here we go…
The Commandments:
1- “Obedience to God’s Commandments” — (you must obey the Ten Commandments)
2- “Pray Often”
3- “Study the Scriptures” — (you must study the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price).
4- “Keep the Sabbath Day Holy”– (you must attend church and take the sacrament to renew your covenants and show “that you are willing to repent of your sins and mistakes”).
5- “Baptism and Confirmation” — (you must repent of your sins, be baptized into and confirmed a member of the LDS church).
6- “Follow the Prophet” — (you must “…have faith in God’s chosen prophet, gain conviction of his divine calling, and follow his teachings. You must prepare yourself so that when the prophets and apostles speak, the Holy Ghost can confirm the truths they teach and you can then determine to follow the counsel they give you.” Sustaining new church leaders is also part of following the prophet).
7- “Live the Law of Chastity” — (“You are to keep your thoughts clean and be modest in your dress, speech, and actions. You must avoid pornography… and treat the God-given procreative power and your body as sacred gifts. You are not to participate in abortions or homosexual or lesbian relations… those who are married to more than one person at a time may not be baptized.”)
8- “Obey the Word of Wisdom” — (“In addition to emphasizing the benefits of proper eating and physical and spiritual health, God has spoken against the use of tobacco, alcohol, coffee and tea, harmful, habit-forming drugs.”)
9- “Live the Law of Tithing” — (“A commandment from the Lord to pay one tenth of one’s annual increase or income for the building of His Church on the earth.” “Tithes and offerings are paid voluntarily and privately”).
10- “Observe the Law of the Fast” — (you must skip two meals once per month and make a “fast offering”).
11- “Obey and Honor the Law” — (you must obey “the laws of the country… to be good citizens, to participate in civil government and the political process, and to render community service as concerned citizens.”)
12- “Endure to the End” — (“If you endure to the end of your life and stay true to your covenants, you will receive eternal life.”)
The Principles:
“… include faith in Jesus Christ, prayer, repentance*, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities”, Word of Wisdom, tithing, etc.
*(Repentance is defined as “the process of experiencing sincere regret or sorrow for wrongdoing, confessing one’s sin and asking for forgiveness, making restitution for any damage done, and committing not to repeat the sin”).
The Ordinances:
An ordinance is “a sacred rite or ceremony” such as baptism, confirmation, administering to the sick, baptism for the dead, marriage in the temple, endowments, sealings. “Some ordinances, such as baptism, are essential for salvation”.
The Covenants:
A covenant is “a binding and solemn agreement, contract, or promise between God and a person or group of persons upon which eternal blessings are based.”
In Baptism and Confirmation, you “covenant with God to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, to follow Him, and to keep His commandments. In return, He promises to forgive your sins and let you return to live with Him, provided you keep your covenants”.
Mormon.org did not give a full list of covenants. Some that were not included are listed below.
During the endowment ceremony, you “solemnly covenant and promise before God, angels, and [the] witnesses at the altar that you will…”
1 – “…observe and keep the Law of the Lord and to hearken to the counsel of your husband as he hearkens unto the counsel of the Father.” (if female) or “…obey the Law of God and keep his commandments.” (if male). (“The Law of Obedience”).
2 – “…sacrifice all that you possess, even your own life if necessary, in sustaining and defending the Kingdom of God.” ( “The Law of Sacrifice”).
3 – “…avoid all lightmindedness, loud laughter, evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed, the taking of the name of God in vain, and every other unholy and impure practice.” (“The Law of the Gospel”).
4 – “…have no sexual relations except with your husband to whom you are legally and lawfully wedded.” (“The Law of Chastity”).
5 – “…consecrate yourselves, your time, talents and everything which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.” (“The Law of Consecration”).
The New Year’s Resolution list looks pretty big again this year.
Latter-day “saint”, will you be able to live “the gospel” this year? Will you next year? How about your family, friends, loved-ones?
Remember, Jesus promises to forgive your sins and let you return to live with Him, “provided you keep your covenants”.
Please consider what I have pieced together for you, above. Will you ignore it? If so, why? Do you honestly think you are doing all of what is required of you, or do you think that you don’t really have to?
“Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30)
According to Mormonism, if you repent and are baptized, and commit sin again, then ALL of your former sins return.
“And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.” (D&C 82:7)
How many can never sin again? How can we even be certain that we have repented of all of our sins? How do we live with the burden & how do we become perfect so we don’t ever sin again and bring back the old sins? According to Kimball, trying is not enough. What guarantee would we have then that our sins are forgiven?
“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.…For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”(Romans 3:10, 23)
“…I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.” (Alma 34:33-35)
If God abides by these Mormon covenants, does He not in justice have to ‘give you to the devil?’ Even for one sin you might not have repented of? Where does the Grace of Christ fit in to all of this? What did He die for then?
Setfree,
Thank you for your concern.
Your logic about the temple covenants is quite twisted though. It honestly does not follow at all. How in the world am I under Satan’s power by promising to devote myself to God? That is quite a twist. If the endowment is not a true ordinance based on true doctrine, none of it is true anyway, making any statement by Satan baseless.
I am honestly sooooo tired of discussing faith vs. works with LDS critics. So, to mix things up, please explain to me as clearly as possible what you think God expects of us in full to gain salvation. I mean what does God REQUIRE? Please be as brief as the answer allows.
I will restate your belief as honestly as possible as you state it. This is what I have asked of EV critics here (without a response), so I will give it a shot myself.
By the way- I do believe it is possible to be perfect in Christ in this life. I was in the temple the other day and watched a beautiful elderly man struggle physically to officiate in a sacred ordinance. I thought about his motives and purity and thought to myself that because of the atonement, he was perfect at that moment. I believe the idea is to be perfect in Christ more fully with time and more frequently as we mature in His gospel.
The Grace of Christ is nullified with this Mormon doctrine of Repentence. You are saved AFTER all you can do…” Spencer Kimball believes men can live perfectly, as affirmed by the BOM:
“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, THEN is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ.…” (Moroni 10:32)
Is this backwards or what? Mormonism makes forgiveness provisional upon one’s ability to repent by abandoning sins. Kimball then concludes: “…however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings exaltation to no man who does not comply with the works of the gospel”(MOF:207). It is at this point that we see the utter dilemma of the Mormon gospel. It requires you to “deny” yourself of “all ungodliness” before you can receive the Grace of Christ, (Moroni 10:32). The Jesus of Mormonism cannot save you while you are in a condition of unworthiness: being “in your sins.”
“And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven.…Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” (Alma 11:37)
Since the Jesus of Mormonism is unable to save you while you are “in your sins,” Smith concluded that we are all responsible for our own sins:
“After this instruction, you will be responsible for your own sins; it is a desirable honor that you should so walk before our heavenly Father as to save yourselves; we are all responsible to God for the manner we improve the light and wisdom given by our Lord to enable us to save ourselves.” (Teachings, page 227).
rvales
interesting question you pose. It seems that repentance has a role in there somewhere, right? (see D&C 58:42) and yes, that forgiveness is made possible through the atonement (Mosiah 4:12)
As for the latter “negating” the former, i am not sure how being a repeat offender will be “evaluated”, again this is beyond my jurisdiction.
setfree
i am a little unclear on why you think that, as a mormon, i have not “surrendered myself”?
i said “yes we are” in answer to your rather direct question, is my answer unclear or is it your question that confuses you? your question did not ask about perfection….and so you deny the truth in the verses i referenced?
i fell on my kness long ago, why would you think i had not? is the arrogance of the Ev such that they actually believe that a mormon has not humbled themselves before Our Heavenly Father? that a mormon has not opened his eyes and heart to the awesome power of Jesus and His atoning sacrifice?….it seems that there is a failure to see that we have done all these things, and as Our Savior has shown, taught, and commanded us we have taken upon ourselves to “do”.
Matthew 16:24
Matthew 10:38
grindael
your reference with D&C 82:7 is inaccurately represented and is interpreted incorrectly…it is not just Mormons who have that “statement”.
for starters read
John 8:10-11
Ezekiel 3:20
But repentance is turning from and never again repeating your sin. Is that not what your church claims the miracle of forgiveness is?
Sub,
The man pushing the boulder reminded me of the
“work load” that the Mormon gospel entails.
It was not my intention to insult.
I don’t recall saying you were a “frustrated”
Mormon.Perhaps you feel you’re doing quite well
living the Mormon gospel.But if testimonies of
former Mormons mean anything, then there are those
who are indeed struggling to keep all that is
required of them in the “restored” gospel.
So have we been told:
1. What a Mormon male has to do to become a god. That is how much and what kind of stuff does he have to do?
2. Are our Mormon posters doing enough right now to become gods?
3. How will the Mormon male know when he has done enough to become a god.
Lest we forget, becoming a god is the Mormon program.
On this thread and many others, what we see is the Mormon posters attempt to use vague Biblical passages into which they can massage Mormon beliefs.
In his book “Becoming Gods”, Richard Abanes says “It is this LDS method of finding biblical support that often leads Mormons and evangelicals to a sudden impasse during discussions. It is perhaps best, therefore, to simply hope for an accurate understanding of the differences that exist between the two faiths.”
He lists five ways that Mormons deal with Scriptures that contradict LDS thought:
1. The information is dismissed as errors.
2. It is accepted only as far as modern LDS revelations allow.
3. It’s interpreted contrary to the language, grammar, or context of the passage.
4. It’s read in light of Smith’s interpretations.
5. It’s rewritten using arbitrary textual insertions that reflect LDS belief, for example Smith’s corrected “translation” of Matthew 24 in the Pearl of Great Price.
So what do I understand about Mormon “salvation”? Well it has two separate compartments. The first compartment is an “unconditional salvation” (immorality, resurrection form the grave), made available to all people, regardless of anything.
The second compartment is the individual salvation, exaltation, deification to becoming a god. This deification is dependent on effort, it must be proven that the Mormon is worthy….this is called “eternal life” and is available only through Jesus. But this deification is only a possibility.
And all of this is clearly taught in the NT, right? NOT!
Jim said “How in the world am I under Satan’s power by promising to devote myself to God? ”
Jim, have you considered the possibility that the way you have explained it to yourself is not the way that it is? I’m not going to try to convince you of this, but only ask you to consider the possibility. Sitting/standing in the temple, surrounded by your loved ones and/or other people whom you trust, making the covenants in the place you always believed was the hotspot, as far as God’s presence goes…
is it conceivable that you made the covenants, thinking you were “devoting” yourself to god, while all the time overlooking the two QUOTES I posted above?
“So, to mix things up, please explain to me as clearly as possible what you think God expects of us in full to gain salvation. I mean what does God REQUIRE? Please be as brief as the answer allows.”
Salvation is a matter of God dying for us, to include us in His wonderfulness. He didn’t have to. Our part? We have to accept His gift. We have to truly believe in who He says He is and what He said He accomplished. The first part of it is that He is the only God… so until you get that part straight, you will be missing the mark…
Olsen Jim
i must admit that i have always enjoyed the eloquence and patience consistently present in your posts.
i am prompted to notice the following
2 Cor 2:10-11
The accuser works with confusion..
…five ways that Mormons deal with Scriptures that contradict LDS thought”
…and doubt..
…have you considered the possibility that the way you have explained it to yourself is not the way that it is?
consider the utter importance that Our Heavenly Father has placed on faith throughout the scriptures…even His grace only comes through faith. When Adam and Eve were told that eating the forbidden fruit would make them “surely die”, it was ‘doubt’ that took that first bite.
2 Timothy 2:24-26
Mike R
i know you were not insulting, the picture is an attempt to insult, not of your doing.
could you explan further what you mean by ‘struggle’ above? exactly what were these former mormons ‘struggling’ with?
rvales
as simplistic as your question posits, my nswer would be “yes”…but both of us knows that it is not so simple, is it?
Matthew 5:48
do you take this Matthew verse as just another ‘high expectation’?
1 Nephi 3:7
Not that this hasn’t been addressed ad nauseum but how can you be perfect as your father in heaven is?
rvales,
That’s easy. These boys are going to be gods. They are going to progress to perfection. They won’t catch-up with the god (the one out of the millions and billions of other gods) they recognize as god. So this religion of Mormonism provides for the motivated male Mormon, a pathway not just to eternal life, but perfection. I don’t know if they’re given a perpetual “Ground Hog Day” like Bill Murray in the movie by that name, to accomplish this perfection but they have been sold on the idea that they can perfect themselves into being gods.
And this total mind flip of an idea that if you question the Mormon gospel, you are being seduced by Satan, is as big a job of sowing spiritual confusion that you will find.
Mormons need to wrap their minds around the fact that there is One God. They’re either going to get this or they aren’t. And this One God is holy and righteous and to enter His presence we have to be absolutely holy and righteous. The problem for us, of course, is that we can’t make the grade. One sin disqualifies us from entering His presence. God’s plan of salvation is that he would lay our sins on His Son Jesus Christ and Jesus would accept the penalty which was death. Through faith, God provides us with eternal life. There is no other way to the Father because that’s His plan and He is sovereign and can work out His plan of salvation any way He wants. This is clearly taught in the Bible. It’s the whole foundation for the Good News.
The Mormons who can understand this, will understand this. It will ring true in their spirits.
Mormonism is a religion of legalism. It binds up peoples hearts and souls into a never ending set of dos and don’ts. It is a religious system that confuses salvation given by God with God’s law and keeping it perfectly. It is a faith that offers the atonement with one hand while it takes it away with the other. Christ’s atonement is not truly offered – one must MERIT the atonement through a never ending series of works of righteousness. It is not faith in Christ they offer, but faith in a system of self-perfection. Those Mormons who post here (and by extension all Mormons?) accuse Christians of giving license, Christians don’t believe the law is necessary for salvation, therefore Evangelicals believe anything goes – rape, murder, plunder as a Christian is a-okay by us Christians they say. It’s not true, but they like to make the charge anyway. It makes a nice enemy for Mormons to combat, even if it is made-up.
But when Mormons are asked by Christians who post here whether they perfectly keep the law as their leaders say is the way to salvation, for the most part, they are completely silent. We have a partial listing of the Mormon rules here – how many have you kept? What ones are giving you trouble? When do you think you’ll have all accomplished and reach the point where you will be granted salvation through the atonement?
Todd Wilken with Issues Etc. recently wrote an article on how legalism and license come from the same flawed theology. This flawed theology says “God would not give us a law we cannot keep.” For Mormons see the world through this flawed theology, and for them the only answer is either legalism or license. Legalism says we can keep the law because God would not tell us to do something we cannot do. License says we don’t need to worry at all about the law because God would not tell us something we cannot do. Well- Mormons, you’ve got it wrong. God did indeed give us the law, and He knows we cannot keep it.
Because Mormons view this world through this flawed theology the only other option other than legalism that they can see is license. I think that is partially why they are always accusing Christians of advocating license.
In reality Christians view the Scriptures as God’s Word – and God has said that the law forces us to Christ for forgiveness. It shows us how far we are from God and how much we need the Savior. God did not leave us there in our sin (as revealed by the law) – Jesus perfectly fulfilled the law, died on the cross for us, and offers us forgiveness through the blood atonement. God knows our weaknesses and offers us His free gift of salvation.
I think what he wrote is so true so here is a portion of what Todd Wilken actually wrote (I would link if I could find it). I tend to have a bit of both Legalist and Licentious in me:
“Both Legalism and License prevent the Christian from struggling against his sin.
The legalist thinks that he is struggling against sin successfully, more or less. The licentious person has given up the struggle against sin altogether. Neither the legalist nor the licentious are able to avoid sin or its penalty. This is because neither is really struggling against sin at all.
Isn’t the legalist at least struggling against sin? No. The legalist thinks he is struggling against his sin; but he is only struggling to keep the rules, God’s rules, house rules, etc. Struggling to keep the rules isn’t the same as struggling against sin.
In fact, the legalist’s rule-keeping is no better
than the licentious person’s rule-breaking. St. Paul says, “through the commandment [sin] might become sinful beyond measure.” (Romans 7:7-13; 5:20) The legalist’s rule-keeping and the licentious person’s rulebreaking only increase sin and its power in their lives.
The Christian struggle against sin is not done by rule-keeping, but by repentance. Some Christians think that to avoid the error of License, it’s OK to be a little legalistic. Other Christians think that to avoid the error of Legalism it’s OK to practice a little License. Both are wrong.
As you can see, Legalism and License are not two different errors. They are the same error expressed in two different ways. Whether you travel the path of Legalism or of License, you come to the same, inevitable end.
Both the legalist and the licentious, whether they deny sin’s depth or sin’s danger, ultimately ignore the saving work of Jesus Christ.
The assumption Legalism and License share,
“God cannot forbid something I cannot avoid,”
undermines both Jesus’ sinlessness, and his
sacrifice for sin.”
There’s more great stuff if only it was available.
Sub, I’ll take a stab at your question. And if you did some research on your own and looked at the Bible more closely and use the definition of the original languages that the Bible can give instead of using your own modern definition then you might not be so ready to shout out Matthew 5:48 as a claim that God commands us to be sinless. Ask yourself this, sub…
If he thinks we could do that WITHOUT the Son, then why would we even need our Savior?
“You therefore must be Perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Lets take a little stroll down scripture lane, shall we buddy?
Genesis 6:9
“…Noah was a just man and PERFECT in his generations, and Noah walked with God.” (emphasis mine)
Job 1:1
“There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright..”
Now, we know that Noah and Job were definitely not without sin, so why would anyone call them perfect?
Well, “perfect” in new testament was translated from the greek word “teleios’” which meanings are “adult, full grown, mature, complete”
It has never been a word to describe one without flaw or never being wrong.
Now you see, the command was to be mature. Which definitely includes being wise making the right choices (choosing to abstain from sin). Not only does it mean to be wise in your decisions and have self control, but to bear the mark of perfection by being a good example of the faith that is inside of you.
Deut 18:13 “Thou shalt be perfect WITH the Lord thy God” (emphasis mine)
Perfect by yourselves? NO. Perfect in, through, and with Christ Jesus.
So now you know sub, perfection as you seem to understand it is incorrect – a simple amount of research into original languages of the Bible shows you that much.
Have you done all you can do? Did you sell your couch today and give the proceeds to charity? Isn’t that something you have the ability to do? (1 nephi 3:7).
If you didn’t sell your couch today, you are not saved by grace through faith.
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love [Agape], I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing. 4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. 13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. 1 Corinthians 13 (NKJV)
Faith abides, thanks to God’s merciful provision.
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
Romans 12:3 (NKJV)
This gift of faith enables us to receive the free gift of God’s grace.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)
continued
We now have a living hope!
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead… 1 Peter 1:3
“…but the greatest of these is love.” There is no room for a principle of “after all [one] can do” here. Unless one has a personal relationship with Jesus, Who, because He IS God, IS love, one can do all sorts of noble things, understand all sorts of mysteries, and obtain all sorts of knowledge to no avail. In addition to all of the faith, grace, and hope that we need, Jesus provides; indeed, IS, all of the love that we need. I John 4:8, He who does not love does not know God, for God is love [Agape].
This is why we can never please God by trying to decide what “laws” we need to keep. By living in relationship with Jesus, Jesus in Whom “dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily” Colossians 2:9; Jesus who has “wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross,” Col.2;13-14, we ARE going to desire to bring God joy and pleasure.
Why would one want to start with “rules” in order to earn ones way into relationship with God when one can start with God; and, as a natural outflow of doing things in their God-ordained order, live in a manner pleasing to God?
I’m on holiday at the moment (enjoying some body-surfing at the beach with my family, to be exact, NOT that I want all you northern-hemisphere-dwellers to get too jealous, LOL), so my access to this blog is rather limited at present.
My holiday reading is “The Atonement” by Leon Morris. My wife rolled her eyes when she found out (“not another Bible-book”).
What I like about Leon Morris is that he surveys the whole of scripture in exploring a particular topic to find a consensus. This is useful, for example, in answering such questions as “when the NT writers referred to atonement, what was their concept of it”.
In reflecting on this, and considering some of the views expressed here, I think that there is a difference of focus between what I shall call the protestant view of “works” and what I shall call the Hebrew view of “works”, even though the end result is the same (we are not justified by works, but by faith).
The protestant view focuses on our inability to keep the law, which can be summed up by Setfree’s question “are you good enough?”. Its also supported by some NT scripture (Romans 3:23, Romans 7:7-24).
However, this approach gambles on the fact that a person has not been able to keep the 613 OT laws and precepts. Of course, it is impossible now to fulfill this law because we don’t have an operational temple in Jerusalem at which to offer the prescribed sacrifices.
I find it remarkable that in Jesus’ encounter with the rich young man, he does not reprimand the man for failing to keep the law (Matt 19:20-21). In fact, Jesus does not even reprimand the Pharisees for failing to keep the law (see Matt 23), and they were more fastidious than anyone in keeping it.
So, here’s the conundrum; what if a person, or a people actually succeed in keeping the prescribed laws? Is that what is needed to maintain a connection to God?
…ctd…
…ctd…
The answer is “no”. This was learned empirically through the exiles in 587BC and 70AD, which occurred despite the fact that Israel had successfully implemented systems of Temple Worship in accordance with God’s commandments.
It was also learned theologically, as Paul argued, because Abraham was justified before, not after, he was circumcised (therefore obeying the law of circumcision was not the thing that justified him, see Romans 4).
The concept of atonement comes into play here. Leon Morris argues, convincingly, that the OT atonement was not an empty ritual, but that the OT regarded it as effective in the carrying away of sin and the re-establishment of the connection to God.
So, how do we reconcile this with the OT view expressed in Hebrews 10:4; “…it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins”?
Another “holiday” activity of mine has been to rip out weeds at the holiday home that we own. We are attempting some rainforest restoration. The allegory I can think of is that though I can rip out the weeds, the seeds are still there, and they will germinate and produce “fruit” for the next time I go weeding. Even though the OT atonement could rip out the weeds of sin, there was still something there that kept regenerating the weeds. This is what I think the author of Hebrews had in mind; the OT law could carry away the fruits of sin, but the original cause of sin remained untouched, such that next year, the whole thing needed to be repeated again, and again, and again.
The atonement of Jesus is different in that it deals with the root cause of sin and establishes an unbreakable connection to God. The NT persistently and forcefully argues that this connection is sustained in Jesus, not in our system of religion. This is the idea, I believe, behind Rev 21:22, in which Christ is described as the True Temple.
So, the lesson appears to be that we cannot, by our systems of religion, create and maintain a connection to God.
…ctd…
…ctd…
It does not matter if my religion is better than yours; they are both doomed to failure. Its a bit like saying I can jump one inch higher than you, but neither of us can jump high enough to touch the moon.
The Good News is that Christ has established a connection to God, and we can benefit from it when we are “in Christ”. How do we know we are “in Christ”? When we operate from a basis of faith in Him, as demonstrated by our deeds.
In conclusion, I don’t think the protestant or Hebrew views of “works” are wholly mutually exclusive, but the Hebrew view is more expansive in that it takes in the possibility that a person can successfully “do” the prescribed laws. After all, the Pharisees (in my view) were successful in keeping the law, yet Jesus still condemns them.
This conflict between Jesus and the Temple Cult (as fostered by the Pharisees among others) should be, in my view, our principle source for illuminating the relationship between faith and works, God and religion.
Gpark-
Thanks for answering that age old question… which did come first; works or salvation.
Full, complete Salvation comes first, then the relationship with God produces the good works.
“And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.” 2 Corinthians 12:9
jeffrey b
thank you for yet another example of the rather broad latitude that an Ev poster will take when portraying facts on this board.
ok “buddy”, let us look closer at what you say.
“Well, “perfect” in new testament was translated from the greek word “teleios’” which meanings are “adult, full grown, mature, complete””
wait, is the last word “complete”?
the adjective teleios or “teÑleiov” which originated with the greek primary “tello” meaning to set out with definite point or goal. actually does mean what you state above, BUT, you omitted the entire definition, didn’t ya ‘buddy’.
1.brought to its end, finished
2.wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3.perfect
4.that which is perfect
a. consummate human integrity and virtue
b. of men
1. full grown, adult, of full age, mature
now let us assume that we should just apply the “of men” usage of the word…for example, to the following verse
Genesis 17:1
God is surely telling a 99 year old man to walk before Him and be “an adult”? be “mature” or be “complete”?.
wow, using the word “perfect” for all these centuries has obviously been false doctrine.
but hey, ‘buddy’, feel free to cherry-pick the dictionary at your whim, apparently the chinese telephone has a great coverage area.
The KJV translates this word 19 times; 1 time as man, 1 time as of full age, and 17 times as perfect.
The NAS also translates this word 19 times; 2 times as complete, 4 times as mature, 1 time as more perfect, and 12 times as perfect.
i am so comforted to know that when God wishes us to walk “upright” he is talking about our posture.
Job 1:1
“There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was adult and with a neutral spine, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil”
bold edits by me
Job 36:4 reads even better with your translation, thanks ‘buddy’.
Jim and all,
Sub said
“The accuser works with confusion..
…five ways that Mormons deal with Scriptures that contradict LDS thought”
…and doubt..
…have you considered the possibility that the way you have explained it to yourself is not the way that it is?
consider the utter importance that Our Heavenly Father has placed on faith throughout the scriptures…even His grace only comes through faith. When Adam and Eve were told that eating the forbidden fruit would make them “surely die”, it was ‘doubt’ that took that first bite.”
I just wanted to deal with issue quickly.
Sub, Jim, “the accuser” (I see you trying to call me Satan’s helper, but I forgive you) indeed tried to put doubt into Adam and Eve’s mind about what God said.
However, this is not a good comparison to make in this case, is it?
First of all, it must have been the Mormon god who put those lines in the temple ceremony, right? The ones about being under Lucifer’s power and God’s judgment should you not keep your covenants.
So really, I’m trying to get you to BELIEVE what your god has said. Not doubt it. I asked you to doubt how you explained it to yourself, when you pushed it aside as trivial.
See the difference, sub?
Setfree,
Thanks for answering my question. Let me restate your answer to ensure I understand you:
You believe salvation is 100% the result of God dying for us. Our requirement is to accept that offering and believe He is the Savior.
I think I could say the same thing. But our differences on this topic all come down to defining two words: believe and accept.
What does it mean to accept His gift? Does it refer to the mental act of thinking that He is my Savior? Really- what does it mean to accept His gift? The devils that “also believe”- what makes them not “accept” Christ’s gift?
What does it mean to believe in Him? Is that too a mental act- thinking that He is the Savior and the only means of salvation?
The whole debate about faith vs. works comes down to these two definitions.
Consider: If I say “I fully believe in modern medicine”- that implies that I comply with the principles modern medicine has outlined. A person who says such a thing likely follows the guidelines offered by physicians in lowering risks for heart disease, strokes, etc. etc.
If I “believe” Ronald Reagan- I probably live my life according to the conservative principles he espoused. If I “believe” Karl Marx, I live the principles he outlined.
In other words, to BELIEVE is more than a mental act. FOLLOWING and BEHAVING a certain way is inherent in BELIEVING in the scriptures.
So when the NT says that the work we are to do is to “believe Jesus is the Savior,” I suggest it is stating that we are to believe mentally in Him and follow Him in our behavior.
I suggest the evangelical interpretation of the New Testament incorporates a much more limited and skewed definition of these two words than is justified (no pun intended).
Subgenius- thanks. I too enjoy your posts. Keep it up!
2 Corinthians 5:21
For He (God) made Him who knew no sin (Jesus) to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Jim, I would pray that you could have ears to hear. I hope that you’re not just here to try to prove yourself right in front of your peers.
When a person believes who Jesus really is, and what He really did, the person becomes a new creature.
2 Cor 5:17-19 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them…
Following God and believing Him, as laid out in His Word the Bible, is part of what a born-again Christian does.
The difference is WHY and HOW
For the Christian, the fleshly/sin nature has been killed off, it died and was buried with Christ. The new person, the new Creature IN CHRIST, has risen with Christ in a newness of life.
This person no longer wants to offend God. The difference is that he is finally able not to. See, God has come to live inside the person, to enable the person to walk the walk, talk the talk.
You, as a Mormon, are still fighting in your own strength, to achieve YOUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS.
We, who have surrendered our lives to Christ, admitting that we are sinners and wish to be united with Him, have been imputed HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, and are grown and perfected by Him from the inside out.
Our works flow from a fountain He has put within us… Himself.
Your works flow from yourself, and a desire to promote yourself to acceptability and godhood.
As such, your works are filthy rags. They are all about YOU
Does that help?
setfree
i stand by my original post.
You have, as Olsen has already explained, twisted the following, and we do “believe” what has been said. It is you that seems to be confussed and unable to “see the difference”
“I’m not putting this here for dramatic effect. I want YOU to know.. you have put yourself under Satan’s power, by making covenants you can’t keep, and by not keeping them
unless you are claiming that when a person breaks a covenant, or commits a sin they are not under Lucifer’s power, i don’t know what your point is. Was not Eve under this same power when she took that famous first bite?
Or do you contend that we are under God’s power when we sin?
Here is your “twist”…
When you claim that we are under Satan’s control by making covenants we can’t keep…this would be like me saying that you are under satan’s control when you promised to follow Jesus, afterall you are going to sin again, right?…and when you do sin, it is because you are NOT under God’s power, but rather under Lucifer’s power.
see the difference, free?
Falcon,
Thanks for your support and kind words. I am not so sure I ever truly bought into the notion that I could become a god. I taught it, but it always seemed to ring hollow in my soul. I chalk that up to prevenient grace, which I believe is operating in the lives of every person ever born.
I used to believe in the Lorenzo Snow couplet, but now see that as heretical teaching. The lightbulb moment came when God guided me to Is. 43:10. Ah-ha! How could I become a god when the scripture says there will no be no gods after the Only True God? Easy answer after that: that’s not God’s purpose for me. He created me for relationship with Him, and praising Him for eternity–which isn’t good enough for Mormons as evidenced by past posts on this subject–is the desire of my heart.
I used to believe that there was a time when God wasn’t God, and that’s because of Mormon doctrine. Well, today, even though I can’t wrap my brain around it (and therein lies the secret to faith), I believe that there was NEVER a time when God was not God. He created time and, therefore, operates outside of it. C.S. Lewis does a fantastic job articulating this in “Mere Christianity.”
The most important truth I learned coming out of Mormonism, as I was studying Blackaby’s “Experiencing God” with a pastor friend of mine was that the only thing I could ever merit for myself is death. I have already stated this, but it was the most significant truth to which I opened my head and heart. This led to the true understanding of mercy and grace, which was critical and pivotal in understanding my true condition before a holy God.
Mormonism is pure and simple synchretism. However, the language is changed to where it only sounds “Christian,” but in reality is different. Salvation to the Mormon is universal, and it sounds good because they link Christ’s death as paving the way for everyone to attain to some glory after this life.
I think it might be useful for the original poster to read the definition of “Loaded Question”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
It is interesting to read the section titled “Defence” in that Wikipedia article. Funny how Mormons are accused of “dodging the question” when these types of questions are asked.
I am almost tempted to answer with either a Yes or No (I’m not going to say which), but I am sure that neither answer would be acceptable here. I can already imagine the negative responses to each possible answer.
cont’d
The doctrine regarding the spirit world, which is broken down into prison and paradise, seems to make sense and to sound good–but even this doctrine contradicts the teachings of the BOM. This proves problematic, and then follows the gymnastics of trying to make everything work together. One prophet cancels out what a previous prophet said, and then comes the catch-all save-all term of “it’s not official church doctrine.”
Mormonism does not equate salvation with living in the presence of God. To do that, as I was taught, I had to make myself worthy through my works. I had to make myself worthy to get a temple recommend. On previous posts, there has been some confusion regarding the importance of the temple recommend, but when I was taught it was plain and simple: the TR is the ticket to heaven. Why? Because in the temple one learns the handshakes, new names, etc. necessary to gain entrance into the presence of God. You see, Jesus’ death on the cross did not accomplish this. Man has to do something more than what Jesus did to enter into the presence of God. Well, once the light bulb went off, it was easy to see that this teaching was nonbiblical and, therefore, heretical.
The work of straightening out my theology has taken about a decade. I have said before that believing in a cult is much like addiction in that one believes lies. As in addiction, one clings to these lies because it’s what they know and, therefore, the path of least resistance. I have also revealed how during this time I wanted the Church to be true, and prayed for God to restore my testimony regarding JS. But, alas, He only confirmed what He had already revealed to me–and what He revealed to me was compatible with His Word (the Bible). I am free of my addiction to the lies of Mormonism. God is the only God, has always been God, and there will be no god beside Him–ever.
I am saved because Jesus died for me, and His death allows me entrance into the Presence of God. Anything I do now is simply my love response to His grace in my life. I am obedient because I want to show my love for Jesus for what He has done for me–NOT to earn salvation; that’s already a done deal!
There is so much more I could write, Falcon, but I better stop here. Again, thanks for your support and kind words, and keep up the good fight the way you do. God has formed you to be the vessel you are.
Peace…
Subgenius asked about the word “covenant.” Well, first of all, there are two types of covenants: conditional and unconditional. The Noachich covenant is an excellent example of an unconditional covenant. God promises not to destroy the earth by flood–and man doesn’t have to do anything for God to keep His end of the covenant.
A conditional covenant contains the language “if you do this, then I will do this.”
When I think of the New Covenant (and it’s not the marriage covenant taught by JS; this is a good example of not having agreed upon presuppositions), which is Jesus Christ Himself, I understand that this is a conditional covenant. Ah, but let’s examine man’s part in this conditional covenant: “If you believe in the Son of God” (the condition), “I will save you” (you won’t perish).
There is also a sign with covenant. The rainbow is the sign of the Noachich covenant. What’s interesting here is that it is put in the sky to remind God of His promise. Can God forget? No. But He understands that we have trust issues, which is a part of our Adamic DNA as the result of the Fall. He wants us to trust Him.
The sign of the salvation covenant is baptism. Please note that the sign of a covenant is not what makes the covenant valid. Also, the sign is not efficacious, but merely a sign. This new covenant replaces the Abrahamic covenant, which sign was circumcision.
We are no longer under any other covenant except the New Covenant.
As for accountability, it is part of the process called sanctification, which is God’s work to make us Holy, and this work begins after receiving Jesus Christ as LORD and Savior–not before. So, sanctification is what happens to the saved soul. It is what happens to those who have become children of God because of their faith in Jesus Christ. Ultimately, the goal of sanctification is to make us perfect as our Father is perfect, and that is perfection in love.
Peace…
One more thought…I often refer to Mormon theology as being backward. Here’s an example of that: Mormonism puts the onus on man for his salvation; the emphasis is on becoming perfect in order to be worthy and to gain salvation. The Bible teaches that perfection is the product of a saved soul (the sanctification process; the Sermon on the Mount teaches this beautifully).
I praise God for straightening out my theology.
Peace…
jackg
“..notion that I could become a god. I taught it..” *
when did you teach this, in what context?
“I am obedient because I want to show my love for Jesus for what He has done for me–NOT to earn salvation; that’s already a done deal!
so, to obey or not to obey really is not a question, neither choice has influence?…since its a “done deal”.
*(footnote, in my opinion, teaching something one does not believe in is testimony towards one’s own character, nothing more, nothing less.)
Thanks jack,
I think we should have a rotation about every two weeks where by the exMormons repeat their exit stories. I’m sure it would ring true to the lurkers who have reached the contemplative stage and are moving forward in God’s grace to an understanding of what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is all about.
I think it’s interesting that your light bulb moment came when you realized that there aren’t millions and billions of gods as Mormonism teaches, but that there is but One God, everlasting, eternal and never changing. I must repeat what I posted a couple of days ago, discussing works and grace with a Mormon is pretty useless because they are expressing their point of view from a context of polytheists. They are also talking in regards to what they must do to become gods. So going to the temple and learning all of the secret stuff (ripped-off from Free Masonry) and then participating in a gaggle of works that supposedly results in progression to deity, is all Mormons know.
Mormons try to find some vague Bible versus and apply their own particular brand of interpretation to support their claims, but it is total folly. Mormons reject God and follow “revelation” from the prophet-wolf Joseph Smith and his successor wolves who created their own god(s). We see it so clearly but having been blinded by the god of this world, they don’t see it.
The bottom line, Mormonism follows a different god. Their rejection of God has hardened their hearts and every time they post hear they become more hardened in their rejection of the only God who can save them from their sins.
jackg, thanks for writing all of that. it was beautiful.
you know, i could see how Mormonism was the true “restored” gospel of the Bible (that had been ripped out of the Bible) if it had ANYTHING AT ALL to do with the rest of the Bible.
I mean, ok, God gave some commandments… but that was just for lowlifes… once you get in and get initiated, you get the rest of the commandments, the ones that make godhood possible
Only, the Bible isn’t about that at all. It’s about that fact that we (humans) wanted to be able to choose “not-God”. So He let us. And He gave us His perfect standard (the law/commandments) so that we could figure out (Israel proved this abundantly for us) what junk we are. Thankfully, He provided a way for those of us who want Him, a place to be with Him. In Christ. Covered by His blood. Righteous in God’s eyes, and able to be in His presence.
Let’s quickly compare that with Mormonism
1-The Bible is about the fact that we humans wanted to be able to choose “not-God”
Mormonism has not only chosen “not-God”, but has decided people can become gods.
2-Israel proved that people who try to live “the law” cannot do it. We’re all junk.
Mormonism has added, like Israel did, commandments upon commandments, to keep themselves worthy. Jesus refuted Israel for this. How much more would He refute Mormonism, which thinks that worthiness translates into godhood?
3-God provided Jesus, to save us from our fallen natures, and give us a way to be in God’s presence.
Mormonism provided temples, to increase our dependence on our fallen natures, and give us away to circumvent Jesus.
I can hear the denials coming already.
It’s ok. I know we’re talking two different languages.
LDS have been taught that a living prophet is
required to today in order for them to know the
will of God, and thus new revelations can be
expected.It comes as no surprise to devout LDS,
then, when another commandment is given, another
“gospel” truth is revealed. What is the gospel?
The words of Jesus’ Apostles at 1 Cor.15:1-4 is
succinct and to the point. But it seems that this
is augumented by LDS prophets in their revealing
of new “gospel” truths, new commandments are thus
added .Devout religious men can resort to this
behavior.The Pharisees in their zeal to protect
and promote God’s truth added to it[Mk.7:3,9].
Likewise LDS leaders have stretched the definition
of the gospel to include, laws, commandments,rites
rituals, on and on , even dietary commandments.
The Word of Wisdom (D&C 89) given as a principle,
in 1833, became a commandment decades later, and
now would be considered part of the LDS gospel.
Adhering to it’s teachings(interpreted to mean
no coffee[cafeine],no alcohol etc) is now a
requirement to enter into the presence of
Heavenly Father in the Temple. This type of
religious behavior is not new as Paul warned
people in his day, and God provides us with this
warning today.
May sincere LDS come to see this stretching of the
definition of the gospel comes from moral,honest
sincere men,men who want to serve God, the men
who lead them. These men, in their zeal, have run
ahead of God and added to the gospel.This makes
their message, “another gospel” [Gal.1:8].
Setfree,
Sorry. But telling me I have not surrendered my life to Christ and that I am trying to promote myself doesn’t help clear anything up. I agree with the paramount importance of being born again and becoming new creatures in Christ.
You have essentially said that I follow God for selfish reasons and you follow God for unselfish reasons. That is super convenient, but does nothing to clarify the doctrine of which we speak.
The question is ”what does God require of those who will be saved.” I maintain that obedience and repentence are absolutely required to obtain salvation through the atonement of Jesus Christ.
I hate it when people list a bunch of scriptures, but consider the following verses when asking the question “what does God require of us:”
First, the statements from Jesus Himself or those about Him regarding repentence:
“For I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Matt 9:13
“Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not.” Matt 11:20
“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” Luke 13:3
“I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.” Luke 15:7
“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” Mark 1:15
Statements from or about Christ’s Apostles:
“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.” Mark 1:4
“And they went out, and preached that men should repent.” Mark 6:12
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Acts 2:38
“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out.” Acts 3:19
“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.” Acts 17:30
“But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.” Acts 26:20
“For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation.” 2 Cor 7:10
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9
So- we can conclude some things for certain:
1. Christ came to call sinners to repentance.
2. If men do not repent, they will perish.
3. Heaven rejoices in a soul that repents.
4. If one believes the gospel, he will repent.
5. Baptism is “unto the remission of sins.”
6. The Apostles taught that “men should repent.”
7. To have sins blotted out, a person must repent and be converted.
8. God commands all men to repent.
9. Paul taught that men should repent, turn to God and do “works meet for repentance.”
10. Godly sorrow leads one to repent which leads to salvation.
The paradigm evangelicals adopt requires a very narrow and specific definition of the words “believe” and “accept” in selected NT verses and ignores a great number of statements from Christ and His Apostles regarding what is required for salvation. Yes- we are saved through the Grace of Christ- we cannot save ourselves to any degree. But He requires us to do certain things, foremost among them is to repent. And it is not simply something we do out of gratitude after being granted eternal salvation- that concept is completely contrary to these verses.
With Mormons, we need to stay with the subject of the doctrine of the nature of God. The Westminster Confession of Faith from the seventeenth century tells us that “God is a Spirit who is infinite, eternal and unchangeable in His being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth.”
There is a reason Christian’s have confessions of faith, creeds and systematic theology based on what God has revealed in His written Word the Bible. It is to avoid confusion and the introduction of heresy.
The Westminster Confession is an 11-point definition of the attributes of God. Three of those attributes; infinite, eternal and unchangeable belong to God alone. Attributes that God can not share are His self-existence, unchangeability, immutability, omnipresence (God is everywhere), omnipotence (God is all-powerful), and eternality (God is eternal). When we talk about the unchangeability of God we mean that God is absolutely consistent. Immutability means that God will never be different than He has been in the past.
The attributes that God can share with us are holiness, justice, goodness and truth.
Now who is the Mormon god? Well he’s one of many gods, perhaps a million or billions of gods; all of whom once were men but through the revelation of secret knowledge and the passing of certain tests, progressed to become gods. The particular god that Mormons relate to lives on a planet near Kolob with his goddess wives were they busy themselves with some form of procreation producing spirit beings who will eventually end up with bodies here on earth where they will also be given an opportunity to become gods themselves.
Now how do we know about this god/gods. Are they revealed in the Bible? No but this was all revealed to one Joseph Smith and the topic expanded upon by other Mormon leaders.
So Mormons do have a clear choice. They can put there trust in Joseph Smith and his revelations or they can go to the Word of God the Bible and experience their own personal revelation.
You may say that “repent” simply means to turn to God. What does that mean? Consider:
“He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.” Proverbs 28:13
“Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.” Isaiah 1:16-20
“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?” Ezek 18:30-31
It is impossible to repent without changing behavior. It is impossible for sins to be forgiven if we do not repent and obey Christ. Of course we do not do so perfectly. And that is what repentance is for- it is a lifelong process. Christ said “he that endureth to the end shall be saved.” Matt 10:22
Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses. He did not remove the requirement to repent and obey- in fact that is the very thing he taught.
Mobaby,
You said “Those Mormons who post here (and by extension all Mormons?) accuse Christians of giving license, Christians don’t believe the law is necessary for salvation, therefore Evangelicals believe anything goes – rape, murder, plunder as a Christian is a-okay by us Christians they say. It’s not true,” Below are quotes from Martin Luther from an Anabaptist site. They call it heresey of ‘once saved always saved doctrine’, but it shows that some Christians do really believe they have license to do anything.
“Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness”
“No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.”
“Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to.”
“The imputation of righteousness we need very much, because we are far from perfect. As long as we have this body, sin will dwell in our flesh. Then, too, we sometimes drive away the holy spirit; we fall into sin, like Peter, David, and other holy men. Nevertheless we may always take recourse to this fact, that our sins are covered, and that God will not lay them to our charge. Sin is not held against us for Christ’s sake.”
“your sin cannot cast you into hell”
“No sin can harm me”
And I do know some Christians that believe this way, although they may not go to these extremes.
“…virtually all of us begin our journey toward God because we want something from him. However, we must come to grips with the fact that we owe him our entire lives just because of what he has done for us already. He is our Creator, and for that fact alone we owe him everything. However, he is also our Redeemer, who rescued us at infinite cost to himself. Any heart that has come to its senses wants to surrender to Someone who not only is all-powerful but has proved that he will sacrifice anything for our good.”
Jim,
I came to God with selfish intentions. It’s who we are. We are selfish, stubborn, non-self-confronting creeps. It is by His grace that He pulls any of us out of the misery we create for ourselves and force upon others, and into a place where He can work the junk out and the good in.
When Jesus spoke of people who were “perfect”, He meant those who were “covered”. That’s me. Now. These are the same people who are being worked on to make them into one of His. Somebody He can work with. Someone who is not out for their own glory or benefit anymore, but out for His.
It’s a continuous work that He does, in those who believe Him “from faith to faith”.
God adopts us, cleans us up, and makes us usable vessels for Him.
Repentance, yes, but not the way Mormons believe the word. Your version means cleaning yourself up, and being able to come to God because of your works. (and of course, become a god because of them).
Repentance is truly the sincere regret that we are lost without God. It’s seeing ourselves as sinners, and coming to beg of God’s mercy, and the atonement that He offers. It then becomes the dependence on Him and His hand in our lives, personally and individually, to make us what He intended us to be.
So, is it necessary for salvation? Let’s put it this way. You can’t walk up and say to Jesus “Hey save me will ya? I haven’t done that much wrong, but whatever I’ve done, will you forgive me the rest”. That’s not repentance. It’s a total lack of humility and understanding. We are corrupt from our cores. We inherited that nature, but that doesn’t make it any less true.
You absolutely must see yourself as a degenerate, and wish to be cleansed and set free from the nature you inherited, to truly desire Jesus’ salvation offer.
It’s not that repentance isn’t necessary. It’s that your definition of repentance is not correct. 🙂
setfree
It’s not that repentance isn’t necessary. It’s that your definition of repentance is not correct.
i assume you were still talking to OJ…but i honestly think you are way way off the reservaion on this one, kemosabe. Maybe you could help me see the points of OJ’s definition that are “not correct”.
also, i happen to enjoy the occasional scripture reference, so perhaps you could quote a few chapter and verse that prove your absolute claim that one
“must see yourself as a degenerate, and wish to be cleansed and set free from the nature you inherited, to truly desire Jesus’ salvation offer.
It’s pretty plain to me that when the Mormons post here they’re talking about Mormonism. They certainly aren’t speaking with any sort of understanding or insight into what the Bible teaches and what has been the foundation of Christianity since the first century.
So the Mormons grab a couple of Bible versus out of context from the Bible and call it what, the truth? If Mormons want to discuss what religion is original Christianity and best represents what the Bible is teaching, then they need to get a better grasp of what the (Bible) teaches. What I’m seeing is just some wishful thinking on the part of Mormons.
Mormons don’t even get the foundational information right regarding the nature of God. How can they even discuss anything else if they’re wrong about who God is? And their religion and ideas about God and salvation is based on what? Joseph Smith’s revelations?
Not too impressive!
Sub, you are right. Perfect is one of the definitions of the greek word “Teleios”. Thank you for pointing out my omission. I assure you, it wasn’t on purpose. The definitions I got were from somewhere else than you, but they were rather similar.
Even then, so what?
Find me something that shows that shows Teleios means “sinless, or without sin”. The word “perfect” can mean a lot of things.
Notice part of the definition given on the greek lexicon said “consummate HUMAN integrity and virtue”. That just sounds like someone being a “teleios” person is a good person and has very good qualities about them.
Truly though, God does command us to be blameless, but can we ever DO enough to become that? No. We can put our faith in Christ who imputes righteousness upon us. I think that is something you can agree with, right Sub? That when God looks upon us, he only needs to see Jesus within us to say that we are one of his flock?
Setfree,
You will get no protest from me in much of what you said- Yes- we are hopeless without God. We are completely dependent upon Him to save us. And we must recognize our need for Him and humble ourselves, confess our sin, plead for forgiveness and follow Him. There is no controversy in that.
But where is my definition of repentence off? I have relied upon the scriptures to define repentence for me. It means to humble ourselves, ask God for forgiveness, forsake our sins (see Proverbs 28:13), and obey His commandments.
Tell me where I am wrong.
falcon- same old approach, huh? When confronted with scripture that refutes your belief system, back off and throw out big picture stuff- like we believe in an entire different God, etc. Show me where I used a verse out of context.
jeffrey b
now that you have joined the ranks of the plagiarists and the editor, i believe that your statement below merits not only a “really?”…but an additional ‘na na boo boo’.
“Even then, so what?
Find me something that shows that shows Teleios means “sinless, or without sin”. The word “perfect” can mean a lot of things.
“
sure ‘perfect’ can mean “a lot” of things and i am sure it maintains this ambiguous state in the context of the Bible…i mean, i am sure the Bible uses a lot of equivocal terms and phrases.
i also see that you are one who believes that God litters the Bible with unrealistic expectations of us, all as a part of some nefarious plan He has for us.
it seems that the nature of God is another point of contention that the Ev has imagined exists between LDS and the rest of the western religious thought (specifically Christianity).
However, i have seen a wholesale lack of a clear and cohesive argument from that camp.
So if this issue is the “foundation” and it is “pretty clear”, then by all means elaborate. Rigorous posters like OJ have been stellar with their on-target commentary on the nature of God, the nature of the CoJCoLDS, the nature of Christianity, and the nature of those who bask in their own rhetoric.
It’s pretty plain to me that when the Mormons post here they’re talking about Mormonism
what should we be talking about? Buddhism?…did i misread the banner at the top of this page? it seems that the topic of each thread is “mormonism”.
is talking about something other than mormonism on Mormon Coffee considered “impressive”?
The point when saying that “Mormons are talking about Mormonism” means that they are not talking about Christianity. In-other-words it seems that Mormons post and they are concluding in their minds that they are talking about Christianity, which they aren’t. They are talking about a religion that was the invention of Joseph Smith who claimed he was restoring Christianity. So when Mormons post, they need to be clear what they’re posting about. Are Mormons trying to make a case that their interpretation of the Bible and the doctrines put forth there-in are the thoughts of the Church Fathers?
Mormons can’t cross the threshold with any kind of historical proof that what they believe was original Christianity. Their claims of such are beyond reason and really enter the arena of total fantasy.
The nature of God is the whole enchilada as far as our discussions go here and Mormonism is in total error and denial regarding God as He is revealed in the Bible. Joseph Smith invented his own God and even those who started out with Him in His program bailed-out on his ideas concerning the nature of God. Incidentally, that includes Smith’s wife Emma and his son.
Ralph,
Thank you for the quotes attributed to Martin Luther. I didn’t know there were really Anabaptists still around. I do not believe that Martin Luther was a prophet, nor was every thing he said godly and correct. Confessional Lutherans (meaning they accept the Book of Concord http://www.bookofconcord.org as a summary of belief and practice) do not accept everything Martin Luther said. As a matter of fact, “Lutheranism” is really composed of Biblical theology expounded upon by a number of reformers. Luther started the reformation, but he was not by any means the only voice. Much of the Book of Concord is NOT written by Luther. Luther was a great reformer, but he was fallen, sinful and depraved as we all are – and sometimes said and did things he later came to regret (such as taking a position to CRUSH the peasant revolt, which he almost immediately realized was a mistake – he acted out of fear rather than faith). The Anabaptists in some ways were like Mormons – they believed in polygamy and they were more interested in revolution than reform – they were radicals. Also, they were persecuted by some Lutherans of that time, which was wrong even if some of their ideas were incorrect and their leaders corrupt.
Some things attributed to Luther are not accurate while others are indefensible and wrong. Did God use Luther even though he was sinful? Absolutely. If God couldn’t use Luther, he can’t use any of us. However, I would like to see some of these comments in context to judge the meaning. Luther did believe in radical grace – God saves sinners like us despite our sin, and he could have been giving extreme examples of God’s amazing grace- to show it’s “all God” and no “my own righteousness.” Could some of his hypotheticals have pushed too far – yes; however, he was combating an ingrained self-righteous works oriented religious tradition and I think he tried to be shocking. If he believed in license, show me his wicked philandering lifestyle.