Introduction: In the following, the notation “(DSS)” means that the quoted passage has been taken from a translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Similarly, “(KJV)” will precede a quote from the King James Version of the Bible, and “(LXX)” a quote from the Septuagint.
All of the following excerpts have been taken from the Book of Isaiah because, of all the books of the Old Testament found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, Isaiah was the most intact. I find it relevant that God would take such care to preserve this particular book.
I have composed this paper for two reasons. The first – to put on display just a few of the many instances in the Bible where God says that He is the ONLY (real/non-idol) god. The second reason – under the heading “Bible: Preservation of the Text of the O.T” in the Bible Dictionary of the LDS Standard Works, the claim is made that the Septuagint and Dead Sea Scrolls prove how corrupt current Bible translations (like the KJV) of the Old Testament are.
The following side-by-side comparison will reveal the correctness of these particular, crucial, pieces of scripture.
Remember: in the KJV, the all-capital-letters word “LORD” is used in place of the Hebrew word from which we get the English “Jehovah.” The Tetragrammaton, “YHWH,” represents the same Hebrew word.
Comparison of the Isaiah Verses
Isaiah 42:5-8
(DSS): Thus says The God (ha-el) and God (elohiym), the creator of the heavens, (and stretched them out in the firmament) and the earth, and that which comes out of it; the Giver of breath (neshamah) to the people upon it, and spirit to those walking in it: I have called you in righteousness, and I will hold your hand, and will keep you, and I will give you for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out from prison the prisoners, and from the house of confinement those who sit in darkness. I am YHWH that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to idols.
(KJV): Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein; I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. I am the LORD; that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
(LXX): Thus saith the Lord God, who made the heaven, and established it; who settled the earth, and the things in it, and gives breath to the people on it, and spirit to them that tread on it; I the Lord God have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will strengthen thee: and I have given thee for the covenant of a race, for a light of the Gentiles, to open the eyes of the blind, to bring the bound and them that sit in darkness out of the bonds and the prison house. I am the Lord God: that is my name: I will not give my glory to another, nor my praises to graven images.
Isaiah 43:10-11
(DSS): You are my witnesses, says YHWH, and my servant whom I have chosen: so that you may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, nor after me will there be. I, even I, am YHWH; and beside me there is no savior.
(KJV): Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.
(LXX): Be ye my witnesses, and I too am a witness, saith the Lord God, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know, and believe, and understand that I am he: before me there was no other God, and after me there shall be none. I am God; and beside me there is no Savior.
Isaiah 44:6
(DSS): Thus says YHWH the King of Israel, and his Redeemer YHWH of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
(KJV): Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts, I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
(LXX): Thus saith God the King of Israel, and the God of Hosts that delivered him (Israel); I am the first, and I am hereafter: beside me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:24
(DSS): Thus says YHWH, your redeemer, and he who formed you from the womb, I am YHWH maker of all things; stretching out the heavens alone; spreading abroad the earth by myself
(KJV): Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself
(LXX): Thus saith the Lord that redeems thee, and who formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that performs all things: I stretched out the heaven alone, and established the earth.
Isaiah 45:5-7
(DSS): I am YHWH, and there is no one else, and beside me there is no God I girded you, and you did not know me: So that they will know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am YHWH, and there is no one else. I am the former of the light, and creator of darkness: making good, and creating evil: I YHWH am doing all these things.
(KJV): I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil. I the LORD do all these things.
(LXX): For I am the Lord God, and there is no other God beside me; I strengthened thee, and thou hast not known me. That they that come from the east and they that come from the west may know that there is no God but me. I am the Lord God, and there is none beside. I am he that prepared light, and formed darkness; who make peace, and create evil; I am the Lord God, that does all these things.
Isaiah 45:18-22
(DSS): For thus says YHWH creator of the heavens; He is the God and He formed the earth and made it; and he prepared it, He did not create it void, he formed it to be inhabited: I am YHWH; and there is no one else. I did not speak in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I did not say to the seed of Jacob in vain, Seek me; I YHWH speak righteousness, telling things that are straight. Assemble yourselves and come; draw near, and with him who is escaped from the Gentiles: Neither do the ones setting up the wood of their idols know, that they pray to a god that cannot save. Let them tell, and bring them near; yes, let them take counsel together: who has announced this from antiquity? who has told it from then? Is it not I YHWH? and there is no other God beside me; a righteous God and a Savior; there is none beside me. Turn to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth: because I am God, and there is no other.
(KJV): For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. Assemble yourselves and come, draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? Who hath told it from that time? Have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
(LXX): Thus saith the Lord that made the heaven, this God that created the earth, and made it; he marked it out, he made it not in vain, but formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord, and there is none beside. I have not spoken in secret, nor in a dark place of the earth: I said not to the seed of Jacob, Seek vanity: I, even I, am the Lord, speaking righteousness, and proclaiming truth. Assemble yourselves and come: take counsel together, ye that escape of the nations: they that set up wood, even their graven image, have no knowledge, nor they who pray to gods that do not save. If they will declare, let them draw nigh, that they may know together, who has caused these things to be heard from the beginning: then was it told you. I am God, and there is not another beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none but me. Turn ye to me, and ye shall be saved, ye that come from the end of the earth: I am God, and there is none other.
Conclusion
The alternate wording of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint translations help clarify and give depth to the wording of the KJV. The overall testimony God has given of Himself remains unchanged. YHWH says He is the only God, the only Savior, the One who created the heavens and earth (by Himself), and the One who gives life and spirit. This is God’s testimony of Himself.
The 8th Article of Faith states: “We believe the Bible to be the Word of God, as far as it is translated correctly.” We can say now that these particular verses have been translated correctly.
Will you now believe them? More importantly, will you believe Him?
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Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.
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I just wanted to know who authored the research. Does not seem to be any source?
Janet.
And “Janet” your point is what exactly?
I don’t know why, but I’m becoming more suspicious of “Janet’s” identity or perhaps a connection with a Mormon poster of the past. No big deal, but we’ve had stealth Mormon posters with double identities creep on to this blog previously.
The point of setfree’s article here is that the Bible is reliable in regards to its veracity. One thing about the folks who work in the area of textual translation is that they are always working to get it right. When it comes to the inspiration of the Bible, as Christians we are talking about the “initial breathing” of God upon the authors of Scripture. We claim inspiration for the “original text” revealed by God and faithfully recorded by His servants. It’s the original that is infallible.
As is shown in the above article, the accuracy of the Bible increases with time rather than decreases. According to Dr. Walter Martin in his text “Essential Christianity”: “….a hundred years ago the percentage of ‘questionable’ textual material existing in the then-available copies of the Bible was approximately five times greater that that which raise questions for critical scholarship today. This is positive proof that the situation is not static but is very much alive and is moving in the direction of resolving textual and critical problems instead of multiplying them.” When it comes to the NT, a relatively small percentage (less than 1/2 of 1 percent is questionable material. According to Dr. Martin, “…no transmissional error has ever affected a single doctrine of the Word of God which touches the means of our salvation…”
Mormonism was started and continues on a foundation of myth. In order to have a restored gospel, something had to have happened to the original. That’s why we see such false proclamation of a great apostasy and a corrupted Bible. Poor Mormons, I’m sure they are still waiting for some ancient manuscripts to be discovered that will show that Mormonism was left out of the Bible.
Unless some sort of explicit and conclusive evidence pops up, let’s lay off the questions of identity, please.
Thanks,
Aaron
Janet and all, you can find my source material here: http://www.ccel.org/bible/brenton/ and here: http://web.archive.org/web/20080630052414/http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qa-tran.htm
Just wondering, Janet, if you had read the above passages, and heard what they are saying? What are your thoughts?
Pick the language: Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, English, Spanish, or Martian – you don’t get multiple gods from Isaiah.
Yod Heh Vau Heh is an interesting combination of letters. Any commentary on why certain segments of judaism at certain periods of time did not think this was a name?
I am not saying you are wrong with your conclusion about the translation of the Bible in these verses, but as to your question about the LDS church teachings, lets look at some of the institute manuals –
PGP pp4-5
About Isaiah 42:5–16.
OT #2 p183
OT Inst Manual #1 pp45-46
Doctrines of the Gospel Inst Manual p10
Doctrines of the Gospel Inst Manual p8
Here is what one Christian website has to say about acting in the name of someone, as Elder McConkie explained above about Heavenly Father giving Jesus the authority to act in His name and speak for Him.
http://www.lectionary.org/EXEG-Concise/NT/ConNT04-John/John 14.01-14.htm
Finally the first commandment does not exclude the existence of other ‘real’ Gods, just that we are not to worship or place any other God in Heavenly Father’s place.
This is how we understand things and are able to believe in and worship Heavenly Father as our one and only God.
“I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 327).
A striking example of a lost passage of scripture has been discovered in the DSS texts of Samuel. The new passage, which belongs in 1 Samuel 11:1,31 presents some forty-nine Hebrew words that are missing in the Hebrew Bible as well as the other ancient textual witnesses.32 With the restoration of this passage, there is a better transition from the final verse in chapter 10 to the first verse in chapter 11, and the context for the story of King Nahash is now in place:
And Nahash, king of the children of Ammon, oppressed harshly the Gadites and the Reubenites. He would gouge out the right eye of each of them and would not grant Israel a deliverer. No one was left of the Israelites across the Jordan whose right eye Nahash, king of the Ammonites, had not gouged out. But there were seven thousand men who had fled from the Ammonites and had entered Jabesh-gilead. (1 Samuel 11:1)33
The paragraph helps students of the Bible understand the situation described in chapter 11 concerning the advancement of Nahash and his troops against Jabesh-gilead and the Israelites. It was the plan of Nahash to make a treaty with the Israelites who were dwelling in Jabesh-gilead, on the condition that he “gouge out the right eye of each person in the city,” rendering them helpless in rebelling against him. The Israelites, however, rally around King Saul and the prophet Samuel (11:5–7), slay a number of Ammonites, and cause the remainder to flee. Samuel and Saul give credit to the Lord for their victory.
Author, Donald W. Parry
Many other missing texts have been discovered among the DSS, many of which may be writings inspired of God. These include Psalm 151, which is included in the Septuagint but missing in the Hebrew Bible. The Psalm deals with King David, his call from the Lord, and his defeat of Goliath. Previously unknown psalms found at Qumran include the “Prayer for Deliverance,” “Apostrophe to Zion,” and “Hymn to the Creator.” Newly discovered prosaic texts include “David’s Compositions,” the “Prayer of Nabonidus,” and a letter of Jeremiah.
Author, Donald W. Parry
Ralph,
I also used to think that James Talmage was brilliant, but he’s nothing more than a false teacher. You see, Ralph, to make Mormonism work you have to relegate the Bible to an unauthoritative source for you. You have to bring in the teachings of men as they fenagle the biblical text to suit their agenda. It’s really sad, Ralph, that you fight what God is doing in your life, and that is to bring you the truth of the message of the biblical text concerning Himself.
I knew this was going to happen when I began reading this post, because Mormons do not work from the premise that God is ABLE to preserve His Word. So, when such faulty premises exist, there will be no sound argument that can convince them because of cogency. Remember, for Mormonism to work, JS had to present a low view of God, make Him nothing more than an exalted man who needed a Savior, and then make Him into a being who is STILL progressing, which means at any given moment is incomplete.
Praying for you…
Unwelcome Voices from the Dust?
The mystery of the nature and organization of the Primitive Church has recently been considerably illuminated by the discovery of the so-called Dead Sea Scrolls. There is increasing evidence that these documents were deliberately sealed up to come forth at a later time, thus providing a significant parallel to the Book of Mormon record. The Scrolls have caused considerable dismay and confusion among scholars, since they are full of things generally believed to be uniquely Christian, though they were undoubtedly written by pious Jews before the time of Christ. Some Jewish and Christian investigators have condemned the Scrolls as forgeries and suggest leaving them alone on the grounds that they don’t make sense. Actually they make very good sense, but it is a sense quite contrary to conventional ideas of Judaism and Christianity. The Scrolls echo teachings in many apocryphal writings, both of the Jews and the Christians, while at the same time showing undeniable affinities with the Old and the New Testament teachings. The very things which made the Scrolls at first so baffling and hard to accept to many scholars are the very things which in the past have been used to discredit the Book of Mormon.
Author, Nibley
[Janet, please review the Mormon Coffee comment policy. Please note the section that reads “Rule #3: Unless permission is otherwise granted by a moderator, links or references to Mormon apologetic material by Mormons must be accompanied by a summary (in your own words) of the key arguments made.” Second warning.]
“Sealed Up to Come Forth in Their Purity”?
Even before one knows what is in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the story of their coming forth, “a marvelous account,” as Dupont-Sommer rightly calls it, immediately puts the Latter-day Saint in mind of the Book of Mormon.6 In 1953 the author of these lessons wrote of the Scrolls:
The texts that have turned up with such dramatic suddenness in the last few years, as if a signal had been given, are the first ancient documents which have survived not by accident but by design.
We then quoted a passage from the apocryphal Assumption of Moses, in which Moses before being taken up to heaven is instructed by the Lord to “seal up” the covenant:
Receive this writing that thou mayest know how to preserve the books which I shall deliver unto thee: and thou shalt set in order and anoint them with oil of cedar and put them away in earthen vessels in the place which he made from the beginning of the creation of the world.7
The purpose of this hiding, we are told, is to preserve the books through a “period of darkness when men shall have fallen away from the true covenant and would pervert the truth.” We then pointed out that the Dead Sea Scrolls had been preserved in just such a manner as that prescribed to Moses:
In specially-made earthen jars, wrapped in linen which was “coated with wax or pitch or asphalt which proves that the scrolls were hidden in the cave for safe preservation, to be recovered and used later again.” By whom? The peculiar method of storage also indicates very plainly that the documents were meant for a long seclusion, . . . and to lay a roll away with the scrupulous care and after the very manner of entombing an Egyptian mummy certainly indicates a long and solemn farewell and no mere temporary storage of convenience.
Author, Nibley
When it comes to logic regarding God, Mormonism doesn’t consider the three laws of thought: identity, noncontradiction, and the excluded middle. Since I am not as brilliant as others on this site, I will refer to a line of reasoning regarding God from “Philosophy Made Slightly Less Difficult” by DeWeese and Moreland: “Do these laws have anything to do with theology? Most certainly. In Isaiah 45:5,for instance, God makes a strong claim: ‘I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.’ Now, according to the law of identity, it is Yahweh (the Lord), who speaks, and Yahweh is not Krishna or Brahmin or Baal. According to the law of noncontradiction, the Lord cannot be the only God and also just one of many gods. And according to the law of the excluded middle, either it is true that the Lord is the only God, or it is false; it cannot be the case that ‘the Lord is the only God’ is true for Christians but false for Buddhists” (14). I would add: “but false for Mormons.”
Ralph quotes James Talmage: “It is vital to remember the place of God the Father: He is the Father of our spirits (see Hebrews 12:9) and is our God. The existence of other Gods cannot alter that fact.” So, as brilliant as Mormons might think James Talmage to be, he violates the laws of logic (noncontradiction and the excluded middle) in order to reach a false conclusion and teach a false doctrine regarding the ontology of God. The rest of what Talmage has to say doesn’t even matter because his premises are faulty.
The very essence of God is His uniqueness. As He Himself proclaimed, there is no other God beside Him. Ralph, believe God and NOT JS and the line of false teachers/prophets found in the Mormon Church. Believe in God and be saved!!!
Praying for you, Ralph…and for all Mormons.
[Janet, please review the Mormon Coffee comment policy. Please note the section that reads “Rule #3: Unless permission is otherwise granted by a moderator, links or references to Mormon apologetic material by Mormons must be accompanied by a summary (in your own words) of the key arguments made.” Second warning.]
Sorry I’m confused, is this a rule that applies to all posters? for I have seen much copy and pasting by both sides without summation. I will be more then glad to abide, but please clarify when we can and cannot quote another. Is this a rule where we can not quote at all? Or is it a rule where we can not quote any apologetic just our GA’s and doctrine? No problem, and thanks for advising me.
Janet.
[A summation in one’s own words is the necessary component when posting quotes or links to Mormon apologetic material. The idea behind this policy is to discourage people from merely copying and pasting material that makes an argument for them, instead encouraging presentation of their own apologetic, with freedom to use other sources for support or clarity if desired. Like all aspects of comment moderation, enforcement can be subjective; therefore, the wisest course of action is to watch yourself and don’t assume you’ll be given grace if you cross the line — though there’s always a chance that you may be ;>) ]
Ralph posted
I see a few problems here. How can God be the Eternal father, yet he was once a man who became a God? You can be eternal and be created therefore not be eternal at the same time.
In the above quote it says God the Eternal Father, stands supreme and alone,
How can He be truly supreme and alone if He is nothing more than a God in a long line of Gods and these gods are so far above him it’s not funny?
Ralph’s quote said
So this means we cannot trust God to know what He is talking about when He said
God Himself say’s their are no other gods and none will be formed after Him, so if he said it I believe it.
Now if the Bible tells us it is IMPOSSIBLE For God to lie, Cont Below
Now we have a problem, if God cannot lie, then how can He say, I know of no other Gods and their are none before Him or none After Him, yet His father is a God and we can be Gods according to mormons, and according to JS in the King Follet Discourse their are millions of gods. God seems to have lied.
In the Book of Moses found in the P of GR,P God say’s
How can He tell Moses He is without Beginning of Days, Yet He was created? I guess He lied.
How about this, God goes onto tell Moses in a verse later
How can God also say over and over, their are no other Gods besides me, yet Go onto say, I SAT IN THE COUNSEL OF GODS AND WE…
I know you guys really wont care and this major problem wont bother you, You will simply look to the Bible and find ways to tear it down and say it cannot be trusted to support your view, But some day you will die and stand before God to give an account, God will tell you, you were show the problems yet refused to see and had to call Him a liar to support your false prophet.
Sadly your believing lies and wanting your itching ears tickled will result in hearing God say, I NEVER KNEW YOU. But I guess you can do what you want, it;s your eternity Not mine. Rick b
Ralph, my friend, I really feel like crying for you. Your mind is so twisted and mangled with this nonsense, that what you should clearly see, you can not.
Why does the LDS church refer to both Jehovah and Elohim as “God the Eternal Father”? I’ll tell you why they do. Because in order to keep telling you what they have always told you, they have to call everything “true” and everything “false”. That way, you are completely confused.
PLEASE, FOR YOUR SAKE, RECONSIDER THE FOLLOWING VERSE!! WHAT DOES IT SAY???
Isaiah 45:5 “I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me…”
Here are the Hebrew-to-English translations for the two most important words above, LORD and God:
LORD: Jehovah = “the existing One”
God: Elohim = “1) (plural) a) rulers, judges b) divine ones c) angels d) gods
2) (plural intensive – singular meaning) a) god, goddess b) godlike one c) works or special possessions of God d) the (true) God e) God”
Ralph Please PLEASE TELL ME, out of your own brain and not some one else’s:
If God said: I am Jehovah and there is none else, there is no Elohim beside me…”
HOW CAN BOTH ELOHIM AND JEHOVAH BE NAMES OF REAL, FATHER/SON GODS?????????
YOU HAVE TO START THINKING RALPH, please, buddy. You have had so many chances out here, already, to accept the true gospel. There will be no excuse for you…
Where did Smith get his ideas about many gods? I believe it came about in Kirtland when he first learned the meaning of the word elohim. Up until that time Smith was focused on the traditional meaning of the Godhead – One God, a Spirit who was incarnated into Jesus Christ, & saved us from sin by sacrificing himself, and was resurrected, giving us the promise of Eternal Life with Him.
When Jesus left his Apostles with the Testimony that He had come in the flesh, He also gave the gift of the Holy Spirit, which guides men to Him and his revealed word the Bible. By it the Apostles documented the Life of Jesus & wrote to established Churches instructions and exhortations until they were all martyred, one by one.
Many early Church Fathers who had sat at the feet of these Apostles, (with the influence of the Holy Spirit) knew the importance of these writings & carefully collected them up & kept them safe for the Church. They verify this in their own writings. [ http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/debate5.htm ] From these we have the Bible, given to us by the hand of God, to lead us to truth: the perfection that is Jesus Christ. He is all things to us, He is One with the Father and the Spirit and we worship him in Spirit and Truth as ONE GOD.
But something happened to a young Joseph Smith that turned him away from joining any Church of his day. [Although he did join the Methodists for a time http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/josephsmithmethodist.htm%5D Ultimately For Smith, all Churches were false and fake. There were none that did good or were true, just look at how many there were! He read his bible and came up with his own answer: all the Churches were false and God wanted to use him: Smith, to ‘restore’ his true church to the world.
[Comment appended due to technical difficulties that prevented the following comment from posting as originally intended, as a separate comment by grindael]
Smith had an active imagination and loved to tell tales of the ‘ancient inhabitants’ of this hemisphere, and was a curious person, involved with finding lost treasure and was very familiar with the magical arts that would help him do so. [divining rods, peepstones & talismans http://mormonthink.com/rodofaaron.htm%5D
The first time Smith becomes ‘known’ is in 1823. This is corroborated by Oliver Cowdery in an official Mormon Publication in which it says Smith was praying in his room and an angel appeared to him. (He was called Moroni or Nephi at the time) Smith is told about a golden bible that is buried in the earth, and God would reveal to Smith where to find this treasure & it would show that the last days were here and that Smith was God’s chosen instrument to restore His Church. [ http://www.irr.org/mit/first-vision/1834-35-account.html ]
Even knowing about the Golden Bible, Smith still uses his peep-stone to find buried treasure, and in 1826 gets arrested for doing so. [http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/dalemorgan/daleappendixa.htm]
By 1829 Smith has his Golden Bible, & begins translating it, writing down ‘caractors’ and giving them to M. Harris, who took them to New York. These were actual ‘reformed Egyptian’ characters from the Golden Bible. They have been proven to be something entirely different,[ http://www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/2000s/2001RBSt.htm ] as will come out with the Kinderhook plates & later with the Book of Abraham.
The BOM is full of ONE GOD references, and there is nothing in this work that points to or confirms a doctrine of many gods that is so pronounced in the Book of Abraham. [ http://www.christiandefense.org/mor_earlyteach.htm ]
Where did the idea of many gods come from? As early as 1834, smith was studying Hebrew, & had a book of Hebrew Grammer published by his future Teacher Josiah Sexton in that year. In it, is the word Nauvoo that he used later to name the Illinois gathering place.[http://www.nauvoo.com/nauvoo_beautiful.html ]
Smith had already done a retranslation of the Bible, called the ‘Inspired Version’ which was completed in 1830. There is no mention of polytheism in the Inspired Version. It is critical to this argument that when Smith started his ‘Official History of the Church’ in collaboration with F.G. Williams, there is no mention of two personages in Smith’s version of the First Vision. [http://www.centerplace.org/hs/iv/default.htm]
This story, invented then by Smith [http://www.irr.org/mit/first-vision/1832-account.html] to assert his authority to start his own Church, only talks of one personage, Jesus, who appears to him. This is in accordance with Smith’s beliefs at the time [modalism] and is confirmed in the 1835 version of the D&C Lectures on Faith, the Official Doctrine of the Church of the Latter Day Saints as stated with Smith’s name on the preface. [http://rsc.byu.edu/LOF15.php]
What changed? Smith learned that the Hebrew word for God [elohim] can be translated as ‘gods’ & Smith then ‘evolved’ his god doctrine. But how would he present this to the Church? Since the BOM had worked so well for him, Smith saw a great opportunity when a man came to Kirtland with some Egyptian Mummies. [July 1835] Smith, before this time also had an affair with a young girl named Fanny Alger [http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm ] in 1833. Smith had already been trying to justify this affair, and to do so claimed that the ‘Patriarchal Order of Abraham’ was to be restored, and that he had an actual ‘Book of Abraham & Joseph’ that would explain it all.
Here we see Smith’s translation skills coming through as they did with the Book of Mormon. They had believed him then, who was there who could say he was mistranslating the Egyptian Papyrus? No one in America at that time could translate Egyptian. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE] This video explains very accurately the story of the Book of Abraham & why it is not what Smith claimed it to be.
Joseph Smith was a progressive, innovative charlatan. He used people again and again and discarded them when they could not justify his heretical progressive ‘revelations’ to justify polygamy & the patriarchal order. His invention of ‘many gods’ who all had many wives & that men are justified in the practice of polygamy so that they could be ‘exalted’ with his wives in eternity were all motives for these doctrines. This was elaborated upon by Brigham Young which culminated with the Adam-God heresy. Both Polygamy & Adam God were ultimately discarded by the Mormons to insure survival of the Church.
Smith contradicted himself many times, and former revelations were altered & changed to fit his progressive ‘revelations’. [http://www.irr.org/MIT/js-revelations-br.html] He changed the D&C & later the BOM was changed to try and reflect Smith’s later teachings on his version of God.
To argue about God with Mormons is redundant, because their version of God came from Smith. If you examine Smith, you find he is a fraud & therefore his views on God are fraudulent. From peepstones to plural wives, the whole story of Smith is one full of magical wonder & the occult, as far from the real God of the Bible as you can get. It is one chapter of a story continued by those like Jim Jones & David Koresh, & other strange cults that have sprung up in America in the last 200 years. All reject the true Jesus from the Bible for their own pseudo-Jesus & upon investigation are shown to be what they are: false religions.
I for one do not think the A/G doctrine was discarded completely, I feel that eventually it will be understood for what BY was trying to state and when we are ready to digest it. I would rather say, Janet here is speaking, that it was put on the back burner. As for the Book of Abraham, JS got it right, but the folks Rev. Spalding found to debunk it were only debunking what they thought they saw, that was it seemed to them a common funeral text. When asked to provide parallels they failed miserably and had to adjust their criticism to state that JS must have changed the drawing since they were unique to any of the many thousands they wanted it to match.
One must prove that the drawings are wrong, if not then there seems to be a problem for the experts.
J.
janet wrote
Here’s the problem for Janet; we can understand it now and we are ready to digest it. I don’t think there was any doubt in BY’s mind that what he said was making complete, intelligible sense to his audience at the time. Are you suggesting that we’ve come into another time of Great Apostasy, when the truth has been covered over (again) and needs to be restored (again). But, hey, this is your big opportunity; you are in the “in” crowd, so why don’t you understand it?
On a more general note, the ‘doctrines’ of Mormonism are actually quite easy to understand. There’s no great secret or hidden mystery to them at all. As Grindael posted above in glorious detail; the Mormon prophets did whatever they needed to do to get into their colleague’s wives’ undergarments. Joseph Smith, and Brigham Young after him, were doing nothing more than writing themselves licenses/permits to sin.
All you say is true, we can look at as a seedy and highly immoral act by some, or as most LDS do, see it as a higher law, one that most of the world does not grasp or ever will. So I quiet understand your point of view. The same can be said of the A/G doctrine as spoken of by BY, or one can speculate a theory such as many who are ignorant of Gods laws seem to speculate on.
Janet.
Jackg & RickB,
Is my logic flawed if I say that I am the father of my children and I know of no other fathers before me nor after me for my children? Heavenly Father is the only God supreme for this world and the surrounding creations that He has made. There were no other Gods for these creations before Him and there will be no others after Him – so yes, He is the one and only and He stand supreme.
RickB,
Heavenly Father is omnipotent and omniscient- there is nothing more He needs. He is not progressing in any way, shape or form in these areas. This has been explained to you many times. The only progression He makes is in the number of His children that become exalted and in the number of His creations.
Since He is omnipotent and omniscient He is just as ‘powerful’ as His Father, etc and no one can remove that from Him. So you are incorrect in saying that He is subordinate to someone who can remove His power and authority.
Setfree,
There are 2 explanations I can think of to answer your question and either one fits. I gave one of them above that the Jews accepted the emissary to be in the position of the person they represent, thus when Jesus says He is the one and only God, He can be talking for God in the first person.
The second is in the Bible. I can’t remember where but it says that the kingdoms of the world were divided up and Israel was given to YHWH. So Jesus could be saying here that He is their God and not the God of the Gentile nations.
There are 2 plausible explanations for me.
The problem with Mormon Doctrine is that the Mormon Prophets made God a Man. Therefore, the natural progression of that assumption led Brigham Young to conclude God did not know everything and that He was always progressing due to the infinite wives & worlds & falls & redemptions. It was a cycle of fall after fall, with a God who is nothing like the one in the Bible. Young knew it could not be both ways, so did Smith. The rest of the Church needs to get on that page that they are denying in public, or change [again] their concept of God to what the Bible says it is : ONE GOD.
Your logic is flawed because, God says, I KNOW of NO OTHER GODS, Yet God says He sat in the counsel of Gods. Then God said NO GODS WERE BEFORE ME AND NONE WILL BE FORMED AFTER ME.
How can God say None before me yet there are gods before him, He said None will be formed after Him, yet you will be a god formed after Him.
Then you said, Ralph said
You word it saying you know of No fathers for my Children after me, A person cannot have two or three or four Biological fathers. With out getting to gross A women cannot sleep with more than one man and the sperm of many man a once somehow mix and create a child that has 2-3 or even four biological fathers. Thats basically what your implying.
God either lied or spoke the truth when He said, No other Gods are before me and none after me. You guys like to re-word it and say, God said I am the only God of THIS EARTH OR UNIVERSE that needs to be worshiped. Thats not true, He is the only God period No Other Gods exist, You guys really miss that point. Rick b
The word, ‘gods’ is used twice in Psalm 82 to mean “Divinely appointed judges” [elohim (lower case), mighty ones], and Psalm 82:6 is referenced by Jesus in John 10:34-38 – Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” See Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p.501. Unger’s Bible Dictionary also indicates that ‘gods’ is used in Ps. 82 and John 10:35 ‘of judges…as those, “unto whom the Word of God came”‘ and further cites Ex. 21:6 and 22:8 as examples of those, ” unto whom the Word of God came…and whom God consequently dignified with authority to bear His Own Name.”
The word ‘gods’ is used hundreds of times in the Bible (OT and NT) to refer to false gods and sometimes to refer to human prophets or judges. The hundreds I spoke of does not include the usage of the words idol(s), image(s), the phrases “carved images,” “graven images,” “images of silver, “images of gold,” etc. in reference to false ‘gods.’ The word demons is also used of false gods. I will share a few complete passages and just the references for others. Bear in mind that this is just a sampling.
4 For they will turn your sons away from following Me, to serve other gods; so the anger of the LORD will be aroused against you and destroy you suddenly. 5 But thus you shall deal with them: you shall destroy their altars, and break down their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images, and burn their carved images with fire. Deuteronomy 7:4-5, NKJV
continued
16 Also you shall destroy all the peoples whom the LORD your God delivers over to you; your eye shall have no pity on them; nor shall you serve their gods, for that will be a snare to you. 25 You shall burn the carved images of their gods with fire; you shall not covet the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it for yourselves, lest you be snared by it; for it is an abomination to the LORD your God. 26 Nor shall you bring an abomination into your house, lest you be doomed to destruction like it. You shall utterly detest it and utterly abhor it, for it is an accursed thing. Deuteronomy 32:16; 25-26, NKJV
26 “ As the thief is ashamed when he is found out, So is the house of Israel ashamed; They and their kings and their princes, and their priests and their prophets, 27 Saying to a tree, ‘You are my father,’ And to a stone, ‘You gave birth to me.’ For they have turned their back to Me, and not their face. But in the time of their trouble They will say, ‘Arise and save us.’ 28 But where are your gods that you have made for yourselves? Let them arise, If they can save you in the time of your trouble; For according to the number of your cities Are your gods, O Judah. Jeremiah 2:26-28, NKJV
34 They did not destroy the peoples, Concerning whom the LORD had commanded them, 35 But they mingled with the Gentiles And learned their works; 36 They served their idols, Which became a snare to them. 37 They even sacrificed their sons And their daughters to demons, 38 And shed innocent blood, The blood of their sons and daughters, Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; And the land was polluted with blood. Psalm 106: 36, NKJV
continued
Janet
What Joseph Smith & Brigham Young did WAS seedy & immoral & there is something wrong with ANYONE who would justify such behaviour.
…Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? 20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 1 Corinthians 10:18b-21 NKJV
1 Corinthians 8:15, by the way, is a phrase cherry-picked from one phrase of one verse of an entire chapter dealing with eating meat sacrificed to idols.
Consider that even the British have the House of Lords – proof that this particular word is being used right up until the present day to indicate a person who holds a position of authority.
See, also and especially, Isaiah 44:6-20. See Ex. 20:4,5; Lev. 17:7; Isaiah 44:10-14. Then go to Biblegateway.com and do a keyword search on gods, idols, images, etc.
NOte the many verses in which God indicates what he thinks of these false gods, idols, images, etc and of those who worship them.
Am I being judged for something I find Biblical and Godly? Why not just throw out the OT when it comes to Plural wives.
J.
Janet the problem that LDS SEEM to want to ignore on the plural wives issue is this, God in the Bible NEVER SAYS, I command you take take many wives, God of the LDS Did say I COMMAND you to take many wives in order to attain Godhood.
In the Bible it was sin to do it, yet People are sinners and they disobeyed God. LDS Feel it is of God to do it and to not take many wives would be a sin, Huge difference. Rick b
Why didn’t BY and JS ever banishing menstrating women from being amongst the general public, or insist that modest clothing worn by followers not be of mixed fabric (poly/cotton blends may wear well but they are sinful) the fact is there a plenty of places where God COMMANDED Isreal to do certain things certain ways or else they were to be punished but I don’t recall BY stoning any of his children because they were defiant (and we all know even the best of kids can be defiant) so why did they latch on to a ‘descriptive’ passage instead of all the ‘prescriptive’ passages of the OT? Guess polygamy was just more fun then ritual sacraficing and pelting their stubborn children with rocks. This is the kind of cherry picking that keeps the LDS from being able to understand and embrace the Bible (as well as see the flaws in their own standard works) Scriptures do not stand alone, they are to be read, interpreted and understood within the context of the whole. From Genesis to Revelation they are all talking about the same thing and if your understanding can not be found in the cross referencing of the Bible then your understanding is wrong because God’s word is inerrant.
Ralph,
Since you asked: Yes, your logic is flawed. It is flawed because it is not guided by what God has revealed through the biblical text about Himself. You try to support the teachings of JS through your own reasoning ability rather than referring to what the biblical text reveals about God. Reread what I wrote, as I don’t want to reiterate myself and take up a lot of space.
Blessings…
I think Janet was replying to my post (JS and BY were writing themselves a license to sin), when she wrote
I make a distinction between someone sinning and then seeing his or her sin for what it is (repenting); and someone sinning and then creating a whole system of bastardized christianity to justify and accommodate their sin, so that they can keep on doing it.
Let’s face it, the world would not have known about eternal progression (polytheism) and celestial marriage (polygamy) if Joseph Smith had not ‘revealed’ them. Why reveal them? Maybe his 34(ish) wives can give you the answer.
There are two tests in scripture for false prophets. Deut 13:1-5 commands Israel to test the prophet’s theology (“”Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” Deut 13:2). In Matt 7:15-20, Jesus commands us to test the outcomes of the prophet’s message, which can be legitimately applied to lifestyle (“Ye shall know them by their fruits” Matt 7:16).
What results do you get when you subject your “prophets” to these tests?
Further, you defend these prophets on the basis that they were only men. The problem is that they did not see themselves as “only men”, but as God’s infallible mouthpieces.
Grindael commented above that “the Mormon Prophets made God a Man”. I think they did more than that; they believed God to be man and themselves to be gods.
You’re attempting to defend the indefensible.
Janet also asked
Contrary to Joseph Smith’s assertions in D&C 132, you will not find a commandment from God for the saints to go and get lots of wives. The best you could say is that God acquiesced to the practice early in Israel’s history, and Deut 17:17 explicitly forbids the King from doing it.
We could say that Israel tried it and it didn’t work for exactly the same reasons that it does not work today. The end result is fractured homes (see what happens between Hagar and Sarah in Gen 21:8-19)and the introduction of foreign “gods”.
However, there’s a more profound issue here. LDS interpret scripture to say that these “saints” of old were saints because they obeyed certain commands (though we never get to see the complete list). One of these commands, then, must be God’s command to enter into polygamy because if they had not done it, they would not be saints (the basis of Joseph Smith’s argument in D&C 132).
To this, the Bible says “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Eph 2:8-9). The thing that separates the saints is their faith (which speaks to their actions – James 2:20, James 2:26), not their adherence to certain laws and ordinances.
So, it is not polygamy that justifies your membership of the community of Saints, it is faith (and some of these saints were polygamists).
Another profound issue is that the Bible is not a revelation of a religion. It is also absolutely NOT a revelation of Mormonism (which didn’t appear until about 18 centuries later).
It is a revelation of God, so that we might share the faith in Him that the saints had.
If some would stop reading Hugh Nibley’s lies about the Book Of Abraham, & research the truth about the BOA Vignettes, You would see that even Mormon Scholars have come up with the same answer as the rest of the world & here is one example:
“Michael Dennis Rhodes, a Mormon scholar skilled in Egyptian, has translated the hieroglyphic writing of Facsimile No. 2, a copy of an Egyptian hypocephalus, so-called because it was usually placed under (hypo-) the mummy’s head (cephalus).
Edge [Figure 18]: I am Djabty in the House of the Benben in Heliopolis, so exalted and glorious. [I am] a copulating bull without equal. [I am] that Mighty God in the House of the Benben in Heliopolis . . . that Mighty God. . . .
Left Middle [Figures 11, 10, 9 and 8]: O God of the Sleeping Ones from the time of the Creation. O Mighty God, Lord of Heaven and Earth, the Netherworld and his Great Waters, grant that the soul of the Osiris Sheshonk, may live.
Bottom [Figures 17 and 16]: May this tomb never be desecrated, and may this soul and its possessor never be desecrated in the Netherworld.
Upper Left [Figures 21, 20 and 19]: You shall be as that God, the Busirian.
To the Left of the Standing Two-headed God [Figure 2]: The name of this Mighty God. “A Translation and Commentary of the Joseph Smith Hypocephalus,” Brigham Young University Studies 17 (Spring 1977):265, with footnotes to the text. The bracketed “Figures” refer to the numbers placed on Joseph Smith’s reproduction of the hypocephalus to facilitate his reference to various parts of the drawing.
http://www.xmission.com/~research/about/abraham.htm
The BOA is a fraud. Does this sound anything like what Smith said it did? NO. The world knows it, Mormon Scholars who are HONEST know it, and most of all GOD knows it.
“The problem with Mormon Doctrine is that the Mormon Prophets made God a Man. ”
What about making the Bible God? A lot of people seem to do that. YHWH interestingly enough could also be viewed as code for the jewish people. As in they are the ‘chosen people’ above all others. They seem to think they are better than gentiles, which has been expressed even in country to country diplomatic relations.
“We could say that Israel tried it and it didn’t work for exactly the same reasons that it does not work today. The end result is fractured homes (see what happens between Hagar and Sarah in Gen 21:8-19)and the introduction of foreign “gods”.”
The exact view of Ishmael, hagar and sarah is a matter of opinion and point of view. Ishmael is supposed to be the ancestor of the Arab people. Who knows what is the actual meaning of the story. I do know that Islam has a different understanding of it all. The story may have little to do with polygamy.
I don’t believe that the result of polygamy is always negative in Biblical stories.
enki wrote
Its a good point Enki, and worth reminding Bible-fans like me. No, the Bible is not God, but it is the best place to get information about God.
As for the Jews, one can approach their “special” status in a number of ways, but I think it is apparent that the NT challenges their sense of entitlement, based on their ability to get born into the right family. The question of what separates and defines the people of God is a central theme in both OT and NT.
Also
I might agree with you (cautiously). For example, we could look at the “positive” outcomes in terms of the production of children, which the Biblical texts regard as a blessing. E.g.
(Psalm 127:3-5)
However, the story of Hagar and Sarah illustrates the stress that polygamous relationships place on the family home (Sarah tries to kill Hagar). It seems that the Biblical authors have presented us with the kind of irony they delight in; an undesirable arrangement turns out good.
My objection earlier is the Joseph Smith version of polygamy. The Bible does not command it, and the early Mormons did not even comply with Biblical norms in practicing it (like not marrying two sisters). Evidently, there is a much darker motive for introducing it into the LDS movement, and equally murky reasons for removing it.
Ultimately, I object that the early prophets taught that entry into polygamy was a CONDITION for entry into the kingdom of God. I know that modern Mormons will finagle which part of the kingdom, and what it means in today’s context, but they’re missing the point of Joseph’s “restored” Gospel.
“The bracketed “Figures” refer to the numbers placed on Joseph Smith’s reproduction of the hypocephalus to facilitate his reference to various parts of the drawing.”
Since you brought up Rhodes, seems I should be allowed to quote him accurately regarding the above.
Michael D. Rhodes explains that “Although we can, with the help of other similar texts, reconstruct the text and figures of the Joseph Smith Hypocephalus with a fair degree of accuracy, we are still far from completely understanding the message which the Egyptians meant to convey by it. The text of the hypocephalus itself seems to be an address to Osiris, the god of the Dead, on behalf of the deceased, Sheshonk. As is the case with most Egyptian texts (especially religious text), it is full of references to matters either obscure or unknown to us, although undoubtedly clear to the Egyptians. Needless to say, much work is still to be done before we can fully understand the import of the Joseph Smith Hypocephalus, and hypocephali in general.
It’s always something isn’t it? Always, it doesn’t quite mean this or doesn’t quite mean that. The fact is the hypocephalus is an address to Osiris, on behalf of one Sheshonk. Rhodes is LDS and of course is holding out for some kind of miracle that will somehow, someway change things around in favor of Joseph Smith. But unfortunately, it is what it is, Smith the fraud, smith the liar, smith the phony.
What I did not post is all the Non Mormon experts who say Smith is a fraud. Shall I do So? There is just SO MANY OF THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And for the record, JANET…. I did not ‘inaccurately’ quote him, I left the source so the full quote could be read. Get your facts straight.
Enki,
I think the last thing we need to do here is get down on the Jews. As for you comment on the Bible, what does that have to do with anything? I have never heard of anyone or any sect worshipping the Bible as God. Could you back that up? Smith DID make God a Man, and it is unbiblical and heretical. There have been enough good Christians here to back that up. Just read their quotes. If you know anything about Mormon history, they call the world ‘gentiles’ and act superior to everyone, calling Christians corrupt and an abomination to God. Let’s dwell on that, not God’s chosen people.
Your tone is one who tries to desperately prove a point through sarcasm and not facts and evidence.
Janet.
My ‘tone’ is one who read the translation by the Mormon Scholar. What does that say? Read it again and get back to me. Your straw man tactics are amusing.