…on that morning like this?
—————————————–
Toward the dawn of the first day of the week,
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb…
the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid,
for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.
He is not here, for He has risen, as He said.
Matthew 28:1-6
I profess this belief, Jesus is the Christ, and He is Risen. My testimony makes me a believer and Saved in the Kingdom of God.
Janet.
Janet,
I’m glad you believe in the great truth of the
resurrection of Jesus. Your whole statement is
great.
I wonder though, considering you are a Mormon,
and familiar with the Mormon gospel “plan of
salvaion”, might you have put a comma after the
word “God” in your statement above, instead of
a period? You then could have went on to explain
that to be “saved” in the Kingdom Of God,according
to LDS prophets, requires much more than what you
stated , if you mean “saved” = eternal life. One
such requirement to be saved in the Kingdom of God
according to LDS prophets, is that of Temple
marriage.Have you met this requirement? If not,
do you consider yourself still “saved” ?
According to Christian beliefs, I’m saved and a member of the Kingdom of God. What else is there? If I believe more, than it is additional light and knowledge, but I’m still saved which is better then being dammed to hell. So I meet the Christian criteria, right?
Janet.
Janet,
Thanks for reply.Could I ask a favor? When you
respond to me could you please use my name?
I think what we’re both trying to explain is
that since Jesus rose from the dead having
died for our sins, that a trust in that fact
and a surrender of our will to the Person of
Jesus Christ with a asking Him to forgive us
of our sins, that, that for a Christian is how
we receive eternal life with God in heaven.
Rom. 10:9-13 sums it up in a nutshell.
I guess you, by your original statement , meet
the christian “criteria”. The question I asked
is that this seems to fall short of the Mormon
“criteria”, for receiving eternal life with God
in heaven. Just one of these criteria, according
to Mormon prophets/apostles, is that of Temple
marriage. Have you met this mandatory requirement?
Ah not so fast there Mormon poster. Please describe the Jesus you have put your faith in and are trusting for your salvation. Is this the same Jesus that Christians are putting their faith and trust in? Also, what is meant by salvation in Mormonism? Is it the same salvation that Christians are looking towards?
One of the things that those of us who engage in this type of ministry learn early on, is to have members of cults define their terms. I’m not in the business of judging someone else’s soul, but I can judge someone’s belief system. The Mormon belief system does not meet the Christian criteria. This criteria was established in the OT and amplified in the first century and Joseph Smith saw fit to go another direction.
So choose your path. A general salvation, universal in scope that covers everyone that ever lived and a specific salvation that allows people through their works to become gods. This is not Christianity. Mormonism basically uses orthodox Christian sounding language as a smoke screen to hide their false religion.
Mike, Thank for the suggestion, wouldn’t it be nice if some such as Falcon could do the same, seems that what goes around comes around, he pointedly does not address anyone LDS except as poster. I agree that names would be more respectful and civil.
As for Falcon, I will just continue to call him poster or Falcon, it really does not hurt my feeling, I just found it some what immature.
What is your definition of eternal life? is it not the same as being saved by the grace of God. Verse 13 states, ” For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
It says saves, maybe you can provide a verse that states Eternal Life?
I seem to meet that criteria, Eternal life means much more to me and LDS members.
I have been sealed with my mate in the Temple for Time and Eternity. I also have received my endowments and been sealed to my parents.
Janet.
Hallelujah,
Christ is risen!
Regarding some of the exchanges above, about who is or is not a Christian, here are my 2 cents…
If someone wants to stand next to me and praise God for what He did in Christ, I’m not going to stop him or her. If he or she has some screwy ideas about God, I’m not going to demand that they go away, study and pass some kind of theological exam before coming back. However, if there is an opportunity to give them a better view of Christ by correcting their more obvious misconceptions through scripture, then I will try to do so. I will also challenge the false prophets who will say “he is over there” (Matt 24:23), when he plainly isn’t.
Personally, I try to avoid the kind of exchange that’s along the lines of “I’m a Christian” – “No you’re not”. However, my appeal to LDS who want to love and serve the Lord Jesus Christ is this; how can you love and serve him when you continue to live in the toxic environment of Mormonism?
Joseph Smith and his cohorts cannot lead you to Christ. How can they lead you to someone they never met?
I tried with the Mormon poster but find her to be disingenuous, misleading and yea a typical TBM who isn’t much interested in the truth.
Take the current topic at hand. Any Mormon who comes on here and even tries to pretend that Mormonism meets the Christian criteria for salvation is either incredible ignorant or just playing typical Mormon word games in an attempt to blur the lines between Christianity and Mormonism. This is no surprise because it’s Mormonism through and through and why this religion is seen as totally dishonest.
Mormonism has a different god, a different Jesus, a different Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost and a different plan of salvation so to say that the Christian criteria has been met for salvation is a total Mormon fog bank.
Sorry to break the news, but the temple ordinances and sealings get the Mormon nothing but a lot of false hope. It’s not Christianity. It’s Mormonism. A trail that leads no where.
Thank you Sharon, for asking me to do this video. It is almost to 1000 views already (almost all of them today). He is Risen! Jesus is Lord of the Universe. I am so thankful He came into my life. God Bless all of you here at MC!
Janet,
My reply to you was in reference to your first
post.Going by just what you stated then, that
you believe in Jesus as the Christ and that He
rose from the dead, then that sounds like the
“christian criteria” for entrance into the
Kingdom of God.My point was ,that sure does’nt
sound like the “Mormon criteria” as there is
a whole lot more required of you which was not
mentioned. I think you know that what you may
mean by terms such as, “saved”, Kingdom of God”,
Jesus Christ”, have different definitions than
that of traditional or “evangelical” Christians.
Temple marriage is but one of the mandatory
requirements for being “saved”(exaltation/
eternal life) in the Mormon gospel, yet this
is not part of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus
Christ that we see in the N.T., therefore it
would be classified as another gospel as mention-
ed by Paul in Gal.1:8-9
Mike, What is your definition of eternal life? is it not the same as being saved by the grace of God. Verse 13 states, ” For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
It says saves, maybe you can provide a verse that states Eternal Life?
It seemed to go right over Falcons Head, he is more into ranting and raving about finding me to be disingenuous, misleading and yea a typical TBM who isn’t much interested in the truth.
So Mike, you seem more calm and your tone is much more laid back, someone here who really might just care to have a conversation.
Janet.
Mike, if I meet the criteria offered up by Christians, and have confessed that Jesus is my Lord and Saviour, does that not at least satisfy Christian Principles and Doctrine.
What I believe otherwise probably is no different then Christians having certain beliefs that don’t always toe the line of accepted Doctrine, yet they profess their beliefs in Christ. I have talked to many, and they feel that God is separate from Christ, not one God.
They do not agree with the Triune Trinity Theory nor do they understand it.
Janet.
Joseph Smith set himself up with a license to steal when he declared in his book that many “plain and precious truths” were missing from the Bible. From that point on he could declare what ever his diabolical mind could conjure up as having been left out of the Bible; by a grand conspiracy of course. It just amazes me that anyone would believe this lunatic.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is very plain in the OT and the NT. Man is separated from God because of our sin nature. We cannot reconcile ourselves to Him through our own works. God in His benevolence, mercy and love for man takes on the “likeness” of sinful flesh and gives his life for us. The requirement for salvation is the acceptance of this free gift He offers us. To reject the sacrifice He made results in separation from Him for all eternity.
This is what the Good News of reconciliation is all about. It’s what the NT declares over and over again from Matthew to Revelation.
Followers of Smith however buy into his (Smith’s) gospel which has it’s own god and it’s own plan of salvation whereby men become gods. This isn’t anywhere in the Bible so Mormons have to appropriate Biblical sounding language in order to make people think that they believe the message of the Bible.
Bottom line; Mormons can’t be trusted in what they say regarding God and salvation because first of all they preach a different gospel and secondly they do their best to blur the distinctions between Mormonism and Christianity.
Smith, with his restored gospel, has been discredited on several levels including his personal character and his revelations.
God has made His offer of eternal life and Mormons have rejected this for an empty promise of personal deification.
For a Mormon to say that they have met God’s criteria for eternal life is ludicrous. What they’ve done is joined in Joseph Smith’s folly.
Mormon missionaries are trained to answer the charge of Galatians 1:8-9 by saying their’s is “not another gospel.” In-other-words to claim that the Christian Gospel of Jesus Christ and the gospel preached by the LDS church is the same thing. This is clearly a lie and meant to have the Mormons identified as embracing the Christian Gospel.
One would have to ask; “If Mormons think they have the first century Biblical Gospel, why not declare the differences openly.” Paul declares, “For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ…..” Well clearly, Mormons are ashamed of the gospel of Joseph Smith. You would think that they would tell people openly that in order to enter the Celestial kingdom and become gods, Joseph Smith must give the OK as they appear before him.
Christ is no longer the judge regarding salvation in Mormonism. It’s the false gospel of personal deification that Mormons hide in an attempt to appear mainstream. Not only isn’t Mormonism mainstream, it isn’t even in a distant tributary when it comes to the message of the Bible.
What we have in Mormonism is a religion founded on and maintained in deceit. Satan has been called the father of lies. Mormons have embraced is biggest one. But it makes them feel good as does a lot of sin……temporarily.
MikeR,
I want to clarify something you said:
“Temple marriage is but one of the mandatory
requirements for being “saved”(exaltation/
eternal life) in the Mormon gospel.”
In order to enter the celestial kingdom, LDS believe one must have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of his/her sins, be baptized, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and follow Christ. To be exalted is something in addition to this sense of salvation. To be exalted in that same celestial kingdom requires the additional ordinances of the endowment and eternal marriage.
The two are not one and the same. So in the first sense of salvation, the LDS view largely agrees with the definition you are advocating.
Simply entering the celestial kingdom does not require anything more than faith, repentence, baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost and following Christ.
In reviewing these posts, it seems there is definate, probably sincere, twisting of the Christian gospel by Janet, and even by Jim.
Christianity is really rather simple. It is simply accepting Christ as your savior, and putting your faith in him to do everything to warrant your salvation. There’s nothing left to do when you accept Christ to get to heaven.
Now, part of the accepting Christ is accepting what he did on the cross, and that was take all of our sins on his own self. He died for us, once and for all. Again, there is nothing left to do. And because he triumphed over death and the world’s sin, his sacrifice and resurrection is complete victory over death. By accepting him and what he did, we are covered by him no matter what we do.
If you try to do more, you are perverting that basic truth that Christ accomplished on the day we celebrate yesterday. Of course, there are practical implications in our daily lives, but they do not change that basic truth. In the end, there is nothing more we can do, and reaching him in the middle is indeed a perversion of his ultimate sacrifice.
The LDS like to use the line that they meet the basic requirements, but that is not true. They don’t because they fail to beleive in Christ’s ultimate sacrifice. To them, it is only partial– yes Christ sacrificed, but you’ve got to do your part and meet him somewhere in the middle. In that sense, Christ’s death and resurrection are dependant on your actions and are thus not complete.
So, from the beginning, I reject the claim that LDS meet the basic requirements of Christian faith. Yes, they believe in Christ, but reject his sacrifice, which is really what he’s all about. Therefore, they cannot meet the faith in Christ requirement, since their faith is dependant on meeting Christ in middle rather than relying completely on Christ.
I expect them to argue away this distinction and point to quotes that suggest we follow his commands…
Now, to address the sincerity comment. This may not be important to some, but I think it is worthwhile to state that I do think LDS are very sincere in their belief that they meet the basic requirements of Christianity. I really believe that.
The LDS belief is essentially in a restored gospel that is based on what they say the original belief was (hence a restoration). They look to the commands of Christ to reach the conclusion there is something more, but hold the basic starting block of faith.
Olsen Jim desrcibed it this way, “Simply entering the celestial kingdom does not require anything more than faith, repentence, baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost and following Christ.” However, this simple explanation does not address the myriad of other requirements that go with the beliefs under LDS ‘theology’.
Faith– faith in what? In Christ or the restored gospel? If its Christ, fine, but it seems the restored gospel is a necessary part of that to LDS, and they thus hold the burden of showing it to be true. They assume on faith it is.
Repentance– turning away from sin. Any failure to completely turn away from sin damages their chances at receiving their full rewards, which includes become a god of your own world.
Baptism– LDS believe that a water baptism by one with authority (as defined by the restored gospel). It is very specific, and any baptism by anyone else is not sufficient. Its not quite as simple as “baptism” to be saved. Its a small print thing…
Receiving the Holy Ghost– we must ask who the Holy Ghost is. I used Holy Spirit above because that’s usually what Christians call him, yet LDS refer to the Holy Ghost. Are they referring same body? A quick look at views of the Trinity reveals they are not.
Following Christ– here are some huge differences. Following Christ to LDS is quite literal and complete, and failure to do so means reduction in rewards.
All this is very different from what Christians believe.
Now, to complete my thoughts on this… the sincerity of LDS is real, but it is misplaced. It ignores the true beliefs of Christians. Through LDS eyes, the statement that they meet Christian basics makes sense. However, given what LDS mean and what Christians mean by the basics, there is a real gap in the beleifs. They necessarilly do not mean the same thing.
Only an honest and unbiased look at what each side really believes reveals these differences. Are there similarities? Sure. But when under a microscope the differences become apparent and are not reconcileable.
Mormonism is not Christianity, and Christianity is not Mormonism, even though Christ is a central figure in both. This is true even though they share a common holy book and many stories from that book. But, to demonstrate the differences– how they view that book is very different in and of itself.
So, where do these differences begin? In the basic definition of what it means to believe in Christ. There are at least 3 primary questions that must be answered: Who is Christ? What did he do for us? What must we do to respond to him?
We can discuss the answers, and understand why LDS sincerely think they fall within the basics of Christianity and are thus saved no matter what. However, in discussing the answer we must address these differences. Failure to do so has dire effects to both faiths because they do not accurately represent what they are.
So, to our LDS posters, recognize that it is very important that you accurately portray our faith, and that it is indeed dishonest to not do so. If you can’t do so, you are just as guilty of those who you call out for misrepresenting yours. And worse, you do not fully understand the radical difference in our faiths. This is worse because when presenting your own faith you create a false impression on what is true; by saying you are Christian you stand on a false assumption and distort the truth.
MJP
You are way to generous regarding Mormon sincerity. I say that because they know the Mormon gospel is not the Christian Gospel and they do everything possible to hide the distinction from the general public. But that’s part of the culture of Mormonism starting with Joseph Smith and it carries on to today. Gordon B. Hinkley stated that he didn’t know that Mormonism taught that men would become gods. Mormons outright lie and they withhold information from those they are trying to convince to jump into the baptismal tank. I don’t cut them any slack on the matter.
To talk about grace, faith and works is a pretty useless exercise with a Mormon because we’re not talking about the same thing. In Mormonism, everyone is saved regardless. Secondly, their works are tied to becoming gods so in the context of their warped religion, works makes sense. It’s all about a self-improvement program and serving the Morg.
So I could have a reasonable discussion with a Catholic about faith vs. works because we recognize the same God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit. But with a Mormon all I’d say is, “You’re right in the context of your religion, but your religion has nothing to do with Christianity.” So if Mormons want to chase about their temples in their costumes thinking that their rituals are going to be the pathway to deification, so be it. It’s a waste of time but they seem to groove on it.
So I’d say to the Christian posters, don’t waste your time discussing faith vs. works with a Mormon because you’re not on the same page. But remember also, Mormonism is trying to pass its self off as restored Christianity with zero Biblical support.
Mormonism is a lodge like the Free Masons who work their way up their various degrees becoming more enlightened and having more truth until finally they end up with nothing but a vest full of buttons.
Falcon, I agree with everything except the outright and intentional distortion of faith. I actually addressed much of that in my susequent posts. I will add that I think a lot of the sincerity issue is a willful ignorance on our faith. I think they do not want to know, and thus leave their ideas of our faith where they are comfortable– which is at that basic level.
They are comfortable, I think, at that level, and it is really difficult for them to acknowledge these differences. For example, how long has Jim been posting here and he still posts what he did without addressing the differences?
I really give them the benefit of the doubt, for better or for worse.
MJP,
I will give you that Mormons continue to post the same distortions even though they’ve had the Christian Gospel presented to them point by point numerous times. They just take a step back and say the same thing louder. I will also agree that this lack of understanding is willful that’s why I think it’s dishonest. But that was Joseph Smith’s game and it carries on to this day.
It’s all about John 6:44, the potter and the clay and all of that. It’s the only way I can explain it after all of this time dealing with folks who are spiritually deaf, dumb and blind.
Janet, I would have to agree with MJP that both you and Jim sincerely believe in Jesus Christ. In and of itself this belief, combined with repentance, would ordinarily qualify someone to say that they have been saved by Jesus Christ’s atoning work on the cross. But like Falcon said, we have to realize that in the Mormon mind salvation is universal, barring apostasy. We then need to ask, “which kingdom have you been saved into? The telestial, terrestrial, or celestial?” Joseph Smith’s “interpretation” of 1 Corinthians 15:40-41, which he received through a vision, is nowhere near the conclusion one would reach when reading the text in the natural fashion. Christianity does not teach degrees of glory nor universal salvation. There is only one kind of “eternal life” available through Christ, not three. Like other heresies, Mormonism denies that Jesus Christ is God and worthy of worship as God, but makes him simply a god in the exact same manner that we can become gods. He is not to be worshipped, but emulated. Mormonism goes so far as to equate us with God the Father, stating that we are of the same species, having the same ability to become gods ourselves, just as he was once a man like us, but became God. This is rank blasphemy, not Christianity. Because you have the wrong Jesus, you have the wrong Father, and the wrong God. Because you have the wrong god, salvation is not available to you through him. Read 1 John 2:22-23. A simple verbal acknowledgment that “Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God” is not sufficient for you, because you know the definitions behind your statement. Your beliefs do not match what the bible teaches about God the Father and Jesus Christ or what true salvation is.
Falcon, I was thinking, and I’ll also say this: its important to differentiate the LDS leadership from your lay people. I think the leadership is more responsible for seeing the differences. It would make sense for those who are that far in the church heirarchy to have not only a good understanding of their own faith, but others as well. They should be able to discern the differences and explain them to those that ask. But that is not what we see from them, so they are arguably directly deceitful. But the rest just follow the line and don’t sincerely look into them.
Its as if the leadership wants it that way and they thus discourage such thorough, and honest, comparisons.
It could also be sheer arrogance that there is no need to compare, but that is just as problematic.
Either way, the effect is the same– keep them sufficiently entranced in their own faith and a profound lack of understanding of others, especially Christianity.
I am sure they object to my thoughts, but so be it. If they were interested in being accurate, they would do so. But I have yet to see any Mormon accurately portray the differences in the faiths. They always do all they can to minimize them.
Alas.
MJP,
I quite agree with your sincerity vs real understanding ideas.
I was thinking too… of all the English Bible translations, the hardest one for me to read and understand is the KJV. I would almost bet that this is one reason the LDS leadership uses it as the official version.
But like Falcon says, you can’t hear/see the words in the Bible anyway, unless it is given you to do so.
One last thing. Janet. You do not believe in the Jesus of the Bible, because you don’t believe how the Bible describes Him. This Bible Jesus is the one that the Bible talks about salvation through, from beginning to end.
To take any other book’s, or person’s, or “prophets'” Jesus is simply taking some other “salvation” as well, and thus, Mormons cannot be Christians as the Bible describes. It’s like having two different dictionaries with the same words but opposing meanings, and trying to claim that they are both dictionaries, and thus the same. They will never be the same.
If you want to have Joseph Smith’s Jesus, please leave the Bible alone. Joseph Smith’s Jesus isn’t found in the Bible, nor is Joseph Smith’s salvation. Mormonism’s Jesus is not found in the Bible, nor is Mormonism’s salvation. Please leave the Bible out of it, and remember to claim anti-Biblism when you report your beliefs.
I am again reminded why I do not post here much anymore.
I think the primary reason many people post here is to fight and to be contrary. I can’t post a simple clarification about the difference between simply entering the celestial kingdom and being exalted within that kingdom without somebody finding deceit in my post.
It is abundantly clear that LDS critics here have no interest in learning what LDS believe or having any sincere exchange with LDS. The positions by EVs here are as dogmatic and small-minded as one can imagine.
MJP- I have never seen any LDS critic here accurately describe our doctrine. Is that not curious as you all claim to be experts? To an objective observer, this fact is glaring proof that there is a fundamental disconnect between your perceptions and what LDS really believe. And don’t tell me I don’t know LDS doctrine.
Good job boys. I’m enjoying your presentation and defense of the Gospel.
I’m convinced that we could write the Gospel points on a cue card and Mormons wouldn’t be able to read it back correctly to us; at least the ones that show-up here.
It’s hard to say why that is. The hierarchy of learning is first we *know, then *understand, *apply, *analyze, *synthesize, and finally *evaluate. When it comes to spiritual matters we can’t get the hardcore Mormons even to the “knowledge” level. Educational research says that people have to be exposed to something six to ten times before they learn it. I don’t know what it is when you combine spiritual blindness. I don’t know if there’s a spiritual Braille system or maybe some form of a visual communication system like sign language that can break through the barrier of spiritual darkness.
So I’m back to John 6:44 and coming ever closer on a daily basis to becoming a Calvinist. How can we explain it any other way? Anyone want to talk me out of it before I lurch over the edge and into reform theology?
MJP, “If you try to do more, you are perverting that basic truth that Christ accomplished on the day we celebrate yesterday. Of course, there are practical implications in our daily lives, but they do not change that basic truth. In the end, there is nothing more we can do, and reaching him in the middle is indeed a perversion of his ultimate sacrifice.”
Are you stating if I do more, meaning more than the basic truth which I have stated again and again. “I worship Jesus Christ, My Lord and Savior. He who died for our sins, risen on the third day and showed himself to his disciples.
Where in the Bible does it claim that if I do more I’m not saved?
Where are the rules of the do’s and don’t besides the Ten Commandments. These are the only rules we find in the Bible so it seems I still qualify under Christian principles and doctrine.
Mike, “My point was ,that sure does’nt
sound like the “Mormon criteria” as there is
a whole lot more required of you which was not
mentioned. I think you know that what you may
mean by terms such as, “saved”, Kingdom of God”,
Jesus Christ”, have different definitions than
that of traditional or “evangelical” Christians.
I’m not talking about what I believe as Mormon Doctrine, I’m actually applying Christian criteria that I meet 100% in my confession of Faith.
I’m not being difficult here, I’m trying to understand why you would find my declaration of Faith to be null and void. I believe the Ten Commandment, I believe that Jesus is the Christ, and I believe in the Word of God. I believe I’m saved, not of my own works but by the merits of one who took away my sins and accepted me as a member in his Kingdom. You can not tell me that all Christians believe the same, many think of Christ as one person, others look at him as another, and some think that God is physical, some think he is invisible, others think he came down to earth, and others think Christ is actually the literal son of God. So who is to say who is right?
Jim,
Thanks for your comment. Was I incorrect in
defining Mormon doctrine? I understand what
you “clarified”, but I fail to see where I
was wrong.When I used the word “saved”, it
was because Janet did. I went on to define
it as exaltaion/eternal life so she could
grasp what I was saying about temple marriage
being a mandatory requirement to be exalted etc.
How is that incorrect?
Also, I would like to ask you, where did I claim
to be a expert on Mormon doctrine ? You stated
that “all” of us “critics” on this blog claim
to be experts. I am no expert, and never claimed
to be, and I certainly can take correction if I’m
wrong.
Janet,
Concerning, Eternal life, please note:
John 5:24 ; 1Jn 5:11-13
Janet,
Did I say your confession was “null and void”,
as you stated? Could you go back and read my
first post to you.
Here’s what matters: Not my word, not your word,
not even Thomas Monson’s word, only Jesus’ word.
The gospel is defined in 1 Cor.15:1-4.
Jesus Christ died for your sins, He paid the
penalty you could not pay, He was your substitute.
Jesus rose from the dead, He defeated death. He
asks you to surrender your will to Him and trust
(believe) in Him to save you from the penalty
you deserve–eternal separation(death) from God.
By asking Him personally to forgive you, He then
sends the Holy Spirit(Holy Ghost) into your heart
to abide with you and to help you live for Jesus, this is called being “born again”. All this is
done through your faith(trust) by His grace, it’s
a one time transaction between you and God.No
amount of religious activities can earn this.
No acknowledging a latter-day prophet, no Temple
rituals, are involved.It’s only you and Jesus.
His righteousness, not yours.
This might help: striving to be worthy enough to
attain the highest level in the Celestial Kingdom
is based on the above Gospel.
Jim, again I ask what is the difference of eternity and just being saved. Are they the same? Can you provide scripture that talks about being saved for eternity.
Janet.
Jim, first, I’ll second Mike R in that I do not claim to be an expert. If I mispresent, please point it out and I will try to adjust how I present it in the future.
Also, I find great irony in the common complaint from LDS when others misrepresent their faith when they show no interest in understanding others. Janet has done so here. I (and others) gave a detailed explanation of the differences, and she still doesn’t understand. Its like she didn’t read it. Did you?
Janet, seeing as I just accused you of not reading it, I’ll ask you if you read my explanation of the differences and why your affirmation of faith is so very different? If you read it, do you have any question?
I am suggesting that if you, as a Mormon, do more then you are perverting Christ’s mission. I am sure you take great offense and the idea will promote a common LDS critique that Christians are “lazy”. However, there’s a huge point that you have not addressed– its the meeting of Christ somewhere in the middle. Its the whole, “after all you can do” idea that gets you into trouble. With this mindset you rely on your own actions instead of a complete and full reliance on Christ’s sacrifice. When you assert your own will in the equation you change God’s plan. This is the perversion, because it becomes about you, not Christ.
In the Christian gospel, you can do nothing to warrant any more salvation than what Christ did for you on the Cross. It is faith in Christ as a sacrficial lamb that matters, and there is no “after all you can do” to Christians.
That addition is a Mormon construct, and I know you fully believe it. My intent is not to convince of our point of view, but rather to educate you on the very real differences we have and why we reject your claim that you are at a minimum Christian.
So, do you understand this difference, or are you going to continue to minimize them? BTW, I don’t think we’ll move forward in any discussion until you understand this truth.
janet wrote about her exchanges with non-LDS Christians
…which I would regard as a sad reflection of the standard of teaching in many modern Ev churches. We need to get our house in order on this issue (and a few others, e.g. the Person and Deity of the Holy Ghost).
We’ve discussed the Trinity at length here before. We could go over all of it all over again, but before we do, I can’t help but question Janet’s basic objection.
She, like other posters before her, state that the Trinitarian view cannot be right because it is poorly understood or acknowledged by many common believers who go to Orthodox Churches.
The answer, of course, is that the Biblical authors had a clear view of God, but we struggle to understand it because of the misperceptions that we have acquired from our ambient environment (which has been partially shaped, it should be noted, by the anti-Trinitarian movements of North America).
By the same token, janet should also object to the doctrine of eternal progression, which is widely accepted but poorly understood (or even acknowledged) by the LDS movement at large. Indeed, that infamous quote by Gordon B Hinckley tells us that not even the current LDS prophets understand it (though its their job to do so).
So, when does a lack of understanding of something by the common or garden believer constitute a proof that it is wrong?
setfree,
I believe they use the KJV out of tradition. Their D&C and Book of Mormon are worded very similarly. It most likely just helps to be surrounded by that writing style.
Janet,
From what I’ve compared in terms of Bible translations, everlasting seems to be synonymous with eternal. I understand how convenient it is for me to find a more suitable translation, though. Thought I’d point it out anyways.
Falcon,
In regards to your reasoning with predestination, 2 Timothy 4:3-4 seems like a suitable reason as well. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard this sarcastic remark: “so when we die, we just worship God in Heaven? Sounds like fun” (not that I know what Heaven will be like).
But in regards to predestination itself, I’d like to point out 1 Timothy 2:4. Also, in Hebrews 3:7-11, it would be odd for the Holy Spirit to be angry about something God already determined would happen. Hebrews 3:12-13 also point towards a more free-will oriented system. I’ve explored predestination a bit, and I just find it hard to reconcile with all of the free-will oriented Bible verses, listed and not listed.
Jim,
I’m lost. It’s hard for me to tell what’s LDS doctrine after reading the opinions of your church’s prophets and apostles. McConkie’s gone off on how the blood of Christ can’t cover some sins (which is more than one sin, so I figured this includes more than the so-called unforgivable sin), and I could swear that Joseph Smith was at least something of a polytheist before he died, considering how he described the “plurality of gods” in one of his sermons.
Even worse, the First Presidency is reluctant to clarify these doctrines. For some, it’s obvious that they’d rather not waste their time when they could be spreading the gospel; to others, it’s apparent that they may have something to hide.
Either way, I apologize for any misunderstanding I may hold from reading the writings of the prophets and apostles.
Once again we have LDS posters (there are only two so they can figure out who I’m talking about, but this is a recurring theme) accusing Christians of misrepresenting their faith. The problem is that I cannot crawl into your heads and figure out which LDS ideology you hold to. We are commenting on LDS doctrine from your standard works, doctrinal teachings, gospel principles, etc., even if we are only paraphrasing. The problem is that in Mormonism we have Janetism, Ralphism, Jimism, etc. Topic after topic has revealed outright rejection of orthodox Mormon doctrine such as plural marriage, blood atonement, etc. Christians also have differing beliefs, but we don’t belong to a theocratic organization that defines church wide doctrine.
There is also a difference between a Christian having a faulty view of salvation or of God’s nature out of ignorance vs. outright denial of clear biblical doctrine once one is exposed to it. I would not expect a new Christian to have the understanding of person who has been sitting in church and studying the bible for 10 years. The problem we have here is that Janet knows that her god, her Jesus, and her salvation are not the same as those of Christianity, yet she wants to be accepted as a Christian. Embrace your superior knowledge Janet. Tell us how Elohim came to be God. Tell us about the argument between our brothers Jesus and Satan over the plan of salvation. Tell us how Jesus is Jehovah God of the Old Testament who somehow was worshiped as God, and declared himself to be the only God, creator, and savior, before coming to earth to live out the gospel principles to become a god. Tell us how Jesus/Jehovah could prophesy that he would send a Messiah if he is the Messiah. I just watched the Bible vs. Joseph Smith. What was Greg’s typical response when asked about false LDS doctrine? “Yes, that’s what I was taught.” And when shown the truth? What was his conclusion? It looks like Nephi, Alma, and even Joseph Smith were false prophets.
falcon wrote
…that’s my LOL for the day, falcon.
Seriously, I like Calvinism’s systematic theology. The thing that grates on me about “pure” Calvinism (if that’s the right phrase), though, is that the Bible is not systematic; it presents its truth through story.
I’m sure that the Calvinists would defend their position by saying that their systematic theology is a representation of the reality (and they’d be right), but too often the message that is projected is that the theology is the reality.
I guess I react against being too doctrinaire; to me its a reductionist approach that doesn’t allow for the latitude that the stories invite you into.
As for people being presented with truth and rejecting it, I see a host of reasons. The primary one, which has been observed by psychologists, is that people are reluctant to believe information from people they don’t know in a personal sense. If you can’t visualize yourself having a conversation with that person, you’re more likely to challenge or reject what they say. (Comes from a psychologist’s study of the fire fighting effort during the bush fires in Victoria about a year ago).
Am I making any sense? Sorry if I’m babbling.
olsen Jim wrote
…but where are we supposed to go when your beliefs stand in direct opposition to the express doctrinal statements of your prophets?
…and what do we do when your beliefs stand in direct opposition to what the Bible teaches, given your 8th Article of Faith?
I’m not objecting to Olsen Jim posting what Olsen Jim believes, but its another thing for you to claim to represent your prophets, and its an entirely different ball-game when you claim to represent what the Bible teaches.
I think our Mormon friends do what is called “filling Mormonism up with their own meaning.” There is so much embarrassing off-the-wall stuff in Mormonism, what else are Mormons to do? Plus they love personal revelation which will assist them to make things that they are uncomfortable with, more palatable. What did that one BYU professor say, “In Mormonism you can believe whatever you want, you just can’t talk about it.” Mormons on this blog were on a tear several months back with me charging that I was misrepresenting their religion. Same old rat-a-tat-tat along with “we’re being persecuted” and “I bear my testimony”. It was the same old charge that they were unable to refute because everything we write about concerning Mormon doctrine has a Mormon prophet’s name attached to it. To be able to deal with the cognitive dissonance, Mormons have to be in a constant state of denial, hoping it all comes out alright in the end.
I’m still stuck on this phenomonon that the Mormon posters are unable to correctly repeat (they don’t even have to understand it) the basic Christian Gospel and acknowledge the difference between the Biblical orthodox Christian message and Mormonism. I know it can’t be because they are dumb because they appear to have at least average intelligence. So it has to be either dishonesty or some sort of spiritual veil that is covering their understanding. Although my guess it’s a combination of the latter and just natural human resistance. After someone says “no” so often, it’s almost impossible to change to a “yes”. There’s a lot of human pride involved which is a trademark in Mormonism.
Martin stated:
“By the same token, janet should also object to the doctrine of eternal progression, which is widely accepted but poorly understood (or even acknowledged) by the LDS movement at large. Indeed, that infamous quote by Gordon B Hinckley tells us that not even the current LDS prophets understand it (though its their job to do so).”
When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.
Source: Gospel Principles, 305, quoting Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 348, emphasis in original.
Janet, thanks for giving that quote. However, are you suggesting the prohet had not passed through the veil to understand that important doctrine?
Can’t answer that, I only know and understand what has been revealed through our Standard Works, and even more as I study other sources provided by the Church, FARMS, FAIR, and Neil A. Maxwell Institute. I don’t really believe, Janet, that our Prophets even know.
Janet.
“For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.” -Alma 32:34
Another great Mormon contradiction. I guess the chuckler never read Kimball’s Miracle of Forgiveness. In it their ‘prophet’ says THIS LIFE is all you get. So according to JF Smith, don’t worry, you’ve got eternity to learn it all, but Kimball says you only have this life. Does that Gospel Principles book have a ‘disclaimer’ that it is ‘only opinion’ like all the Mormon papers that have come out recently? Or is this what Falcon says.. the ‘gospel’ according to Mormon opinion? Of course the ‘prophets’ don’t know … they are not real prophets.
Many years ago I read, “Miracle of Forgiveness” and found it quiet profound. Why do you continue stating Doctrine you mistake as LDS Doctrine, so here is what I posted for some clarity.
“But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.”
This life is to prepare, the next life we continue to learn how to be exalted. I have no idea nor does anyone that I know of, understand how God got to where He has become a Glorified Being, all knowing, all righteous, and always faithful. You state of course our prophets don’t know since they are bogus, but then again, your creeds, interpretations of scripture are the results of men, and they surely don’t have any authority to state what the scriptures actually mean, and why they mislead so many people into believing such a mistake as the Triune Trinity.
Janet.
janet posted the quote
…so what happened to the “plain and precious truths”?
Isn’t it the prophets’ job to make these things understandable?
Why don’t they do that, instead of hiding behind the baloney that “oh well, I guess we won’t know in this life”.
janet, you have targeted the Trinity as something that is incomprehensible (and untrue), yet your own movement is gushing out such incomprehensible garbage as this all the time. And, it does so in direct opposition to Joseph Smith who claimed to have “clarified” it all.
I wonder how, for example, Brigham Young would react to this. He was as wrong as you could get, but he never shrunk back from asserting that he knew the answers, as the current mob do.
If you want to judge the truth of something by how well you understand it, fair enough (though you’ll find it an untenable position). Only you should at least have the integrity to apply the same standard to yourself as you do to others.
Janet,
As you stated that the next life will be spent
in learning how to be exalted (Godhood), there’s
one thing that you personally won’t have to
learn, which is having children. As your husband
is ruling and being worshipped as an Almighty God
by your millions of spirit children, you apparently won’t be. As a Goddess you’ll be
constantly producing and raising children. As a
Mormon, is this how you see it?
janet also posted
…not according to Joseph Smith…
etc etc (Times and Seasons Vol. 5, pp. 613-614)
…or Milton R Hunter…
So, janet, you should know how God became God. Don’t you even know the path you are treading?
Unless, of course, you chose to ignore the words of your own prophets.
But, as Mike R pointed out, isn’t this a path for your husband, not for you?
Martin,
Thanks for the quote from a Mormon general
authority.It’s clear enough from that how
Joseph Smith could enlighen the world on how
God became God. The answer is obvious—when
Joseph, and all Mormon males, look in the
mirror every morning they see an Almighty God
in the making.The same experiences, the same
ladder. When Joseph Smith taught that Mormon
males can learn how to become Gods,like ALL gods
who came before them, he then laid out that
plan, that ladder: baptism at around 8 years,
obeying parents, making mistakes,properly
repenting,serving in the local congregation,
passing the Temple recommend interview,
receiving the signs and tokens in the Temple
endowment,swearing not to divulge these to
others under penalty of death, marrying one
or more wives, having children, growing old,
dying, being resurrected, continuing to learn,
becoming fully exalted, producing millions of
children with his wife(s), being worshipped.
The path, the ladder.
As for me, just give me JESUS. Worshipping,
praising, and being with Him is all I need
to experience with family and friends.
Chuckle,
Martins post: “Then how did He become glorified and exalted and attain His present status of Godhood? In the first place, aeons ago, God undoubtedly took advantage of every opportunity to learn the laws of truth and as He became acquainted with each new verity He righteously obeyed it. From day to day He exerted His will vigorously, and as a result became thoroughly acquainted with the forces lying about Him. As he gained more knowledge through persistent effort and continuous industry, as well as through absolute obedience, His understanding of the universal laws continued to become more complete.”
My post: This life is to prepare, the next life we continue to learn how to be exalted.
1). Took advantage of every opportunity to learn the laws of truth
2). He righteously obeyed it.
3). Became thoroughly acquainted with the forces lying about Him.
4). He gained more knowledge through persistent effort and continuous industry,
5). His understanding of the universal laws continued to become more complete
My two bits:
1). Next life we continue to learn how to be exalted 🙂
Mike, “constantly producing and raising children. As a
Mormon, is this how you see it?
I just explained, and you apparently skipped over my remarks.
Our knowledge of the how, what and why of God’s and Goddesses is limited to the small amount of Doctrine we have at this time.
You seem to be speculating, I will wait patiently until more is revealed. What good would it be for me to speculate, it would only be used against me.
Martin, “Isn’t it the prophets’ job to make these things understandable?
Prophets don’t have job, they are called to positions of authority.
What authority? only that which God reveals to them.
Janet.