…on that morning like this?
—————————————–
Toward the dawn of the first day of the week,
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb…
the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid,
for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.
He is not here, for He has risen, as He said.
Matthew 28:1-6
Janet, can I point out how your positions are inconsistent with logic and are subject to all kinds of abuse and alterations?
By saying your leaders don’t have a job but are only called to positions of authority is disengenuous. It is his job to act as the head and prophet of the church. That is his authority.
Past prophets have spoken authoritatively on progression, and now prophets back away from it. You were given quotes of these prophets, yet now you say that the authority is limited to what god reveals to them.
So, does that mean they are free to ignore the revelations of past prohets?
As to the preparation in this life and the learning proposition– what is preparation? Isn’t part of preparation learning? Can you learn if you are not prepared? The distinction you seem to be making is tenuous at best, and seems more semantics than a solid idea.
It actually demonstrates my first point of the flexible nature that your faith allows. Its an out, a way to manipulate the story to react to your critics.
Janet,
When I asked about your future as a Goddess wife
it was to get your thoughts on this. It was not
my intention to try and ” trap you “. This
doctrine, because of it’s importance, needs to be correct otherwise there is a severe penalty for
believing in it. It goes without saying that if this is false doctrine then it will be what traps
you, not me for merely asking about it.
Will you comtemplate this fact also: that if what
has been revealed so far is wrong, then any more
revealment on it will only tend to make it worst.
I hope you’ll ponder these things.
I have to chuckle at this, “Janet, can I point out how your positions are inconsistent with logic and are subject to all kinds of abuse and alterations?
Logic, you speak of logic and then teach in your churches a Doctrine called the Triune Trinity. Amazing.
Logic seems to be convenient when critiquing Mormons, Prophets, and Authority.
Job, occupation, line of business, earning money etc, etc.
Our Prophet is not compensated for being a Prophet, he may be on a board of directors, etc, but not one cent for his calling.
Here is another gem, “Can you learn if you are not prepared?” How about you’re prepared after you learn. Example, child burns hand on stove. Question, was he prepared or did he learn and now is prepared not to repeat.
Nice try. Janet.
Here is what I believe, if the Book of Mormon is false, then everything else that comes from this one Book, one Religion, and all that followed is false. As long as I believe that every word, every sentence, every verse is a result of Men who were inspired to record their thought, their actions, and their history on plates of Gold, then I will also believe other doctrine that has been revealed to me and I have personally studied and prayed about. Thank you for asking me to ponder these thing, but be assured I do not follow and man, unless it has been revealed to me he has authority to speak for God.
Janet.
Janet, I love how you are adding your little “chuckles into the mix now. You evidently do not take us seriously.
If you’d like a discussion on the trinity, when the topic comes up in the appropriate forum, we will discuss. However, that is not at issue now, and so your deflection to that is exactly that, a deflection. You try to avoid addressing the claims against you by pointing out what may be an apparent equivalent fault. Do you think we are not prepared to discuss the Trinity? Do you not think that we have answers for every one of your claims? Answers that we can point to the Bible for?
That is exactly where you fail, because you cannot point to evidence to suggest that the doctrine of eternal progression is not well understood when your own prophets of the past understood it quite well, at least by their own words.
You then in your next post suggest, rightly so, that if the BoM is false, the rest is false. And what is (chuckle) funny to me is that when I point out that there is doubt as to what has been revealed is indeed in question, you simply reaffirm your belief in it all. You reaffirm it all without addressing why it is true. It just simply must be true, and it is true because you get the burning in the bosom and because your prophets tell you so.
Well, it is false. But you are also right to say that as long as you believe it, you believe the rest. Trouble is though, just because you believe something does not make that something true. It simply means you believe it. You could be wrong.
Now, Janet, I implore you to directly answer the claims we have all been making. No more chuckles or deflection, hit them head on. Cowgirl up.
As to the preparation argument– its not worth pursuing. If you do not see how becoming prepared is a part of learning and how you cannot have one without the other, then you are truly blind.
It’s not that I don’t take you seriously, but when someone accuses me of not using logic, or our Doctrine is not logical, why not show that this statement can be just as evident when a doctrine that describes the Nature of God is not the least logical. Very few Christians understand it, can explain it, or even know how it came into existence, other then a few men who decided that the Scriptures meant this and that, but failed in every way to prove they had the authority to translate scripture in the bible.
Janet.
Janet, I for one would never accuse you of “not using logic.” It is obvious you are a master of the logic of self-deception. Your posts on MRM give those who haven’t had much exposure to Mormon thought, a great frame of reference for understanding how a Mormon’s mind malfunctions. Thank You for that.
Previously, I had one objection to Milton R Hunter’s doctrine on exaltation, but janet has given me a second.
My original objection was in what was missing in Milton R Hunter’s assessment. Did anyone else spot it?
What Milton R Hunter missed was ANY reference to the atoning work of Christ. Zip. Zero. Nada.
According to Milton R Hunter, you can become a God totally without the slightest reference to the work of Christ on the Cross. If Milton R Hunter is right, I don’t know why Jesus bothered to go through with it all, and I don’t know why the earliest Christians made such a big deal of the cross of Christ in their writings (the NT).
I’m with Paul on this one
1 Cor 1:18.
(I also have no clue as to why Mormons would claim any sort of ownership of the Bible, when it contradicts them so frequently)
My second objection is that the early Mormon prophets definitely knew (or thought they knew) EXACTLY how God became God. They saw it as their calling and their mission to tell people about how to follow God into Godhood IN THIS LIFE.
When janet says “we cannot know in this life”, its crazy talk, when we consider the strenuous efforts of these prophets to tell us, in this life, exactly how it is done. She is nullifying the teachings of her own prophets. Why? What gives her the right?
Why does the modern movement back away from these plain and precious doctrines? The most obvious explanations are;
* They have fallen into apostasy
* They are not apostate, but sincerely don’t have the communion with God that the early prophets claimed to have had
* The message of exaltation by polygamy is a message for MEN ONLY, so they befuddle it to pacify the women.
There’s no mystery here. The LDS Church has got it horribly wrong, and it continues to perpetuate the lie by acquiescing to a watered-down version of the “restored” gospel
Well, Janet, you have not addressed any of the claims I have given you. All you have done, and just did, is to equate the lack of logic in your own position with that of the apparent misunderstanding of the Trinity. The Trinity is a tough doctrine, but it is logical and supportable through scriptures, which is actually the source (and not the creeds). So, even your critique of it shows a lack of understanding.
But th Trinity is not at issue here, so at the appropriate place we can expand on that topic. At issue here is the role of the prophets in the LDS church in deciphering doctrine, namely progression. As Martin pointed out, the past prophets seemed to have claimed to know quite a bit about how to progress. Now, the prohpets aren’t so sure. Call me crazy, but God does not muddle things up, and moves towards clarity, not confusion. So, why would these godly men move towards confusion on a doctrine that is central to your faith?
That does not make any sense, Janet. And I think that is why you avoid discussing it, because you can’t explain it. You may not find it troublesome, because you are rewarded for your faith even when there is no evidence or explanation. We hear that a lot from LDS that faith is better when it is without evidence than it is when there is evidence. I think you believe that position.
Janet,
I have forgotten about this thread. Sorry to take so long to answer your question.
My point above was to clarify the different possibilities within the Celestial Kingdom. I have very often heard EVs claim that we believe a person must receive all the temple ordinances to enter the Celestial Kingdom. And this is not true.
That was my simple intent- to point out that one can enter the Celestial Kingdom without the temple ordinances, but he/she cannot be exalted without them.
MJP- how do you know the BOM is false?
Isn’t it a bummer that enemies on opposite sides of bitter battle lines could join in singing sacred hymns on Christmas Day in WWI and WWII, yet we cannot do the same thing on Easter in a time of relative peace.
Starting with the last point first, Jim, I would gladly break bread with you and get to know you better. I am not seeking war, only a fruitful discussion of our faiths. As you know, I am a critic of yours, but discussing alone should not be seen as an attack on your person.
How do I know the BoM is false? I have prayed to God about its possibility and it was revealed to me that it is indeed false. I have had this supported by an analysis of the origins of the book, the claims it makes, the history it contains, and the very nature of the entire assumption and originas on which it is based.
If it is not true that you need to aprtake in all the temple ordinances, why try? Now, before you take my question as a call the be lazy, consider that this very notion is that something else is in play. If following all the rules doesn’t matter, what does matter? Sincerly, what matters? Also, what benefit do you get from following them if they are not required? Surely, there is some reward for doing them, and so does that not change a motivating factor? Does it not tie into our other discussion on excellence? If its possible to get the CK without doing all you can do, what else is going on?
I argue that it is about pride…
MJP,
I don’t think you understand what I am saying. Within the Celestial Kingdom are different degrees or glories. To reach the highest glory and inheritance within the Celestial Kingdom, which is to become like God, requires the ordinances of the Melchizedek Priesthood, including those of the temple. So it does matter.
You are really onto this pride thing, huh? I think many people, even LDS, do not understand what eternal life is all about. It is not necessarily getting a pot of gold or a physical Kingdom. It is about our natures, desires, and who we are- that is at the core of knowing God and becoming like Him.
But our nature, desires, and who we are is extremely closely tied to what we do and think. They cannot be separated. The whole program, or plan of salvation is to change our natures and make us like Heavenly Father. I think you are missing the boat on the pride tangent. Pride is probably the number one thing that will keep us from the Celestial Kingdom. It is not as if God will accept outward behavior without a pure heart. But you really can’t develop a pure heart without modifying behavior.
By the way, ever read the BOM cover to cover?
Jim, Thanks. A full and honest answer, that there are better rewards for doing more. So, saying to reach the CK without doing more is not completely accurate.
Pride. Yes, I think pride is a huge deal. And I agree that it is about our desires and natures. But this is where we must pause and look to see what our natures and desires tell us. Do we want to be great and awesome with all sorts of rewards? Or do we want to honor Christ and Christ alone?
How do we honor Christ? Do we honor Christ by doing a honey-do list, or do honor him by giving up everthing that we called our own?
I understand how you think that by following the ‘commands’ you are honoring Christ, but that is such a slippery slope that leads to prideful people boasting of what they have done. This was the system the Pharisees had in place, and it wasn’t working. They would proclaim to the world how holy they were, and would not honor God.
I see a lot of parallels between your system and their, and also believe that is the reason for the grace alone doctrine. It does not negate the desire nor the need to do things to stay close to God, however, it takes the emphasis away from them in terms of their saving power, which is what causes the pride. It also puts the emphasis on worshipping Christ and not our own efforts to earn something he’s already given. When we are working on our own accord, our focus in on us, not Christ. When we work on our own accord, we act in pride, and we are in sin.
A pure heart is not changed by modifying behavior, though that can certainly help it. A pure heart is only one that is fully given to Jesus, and one that accepts nothing but Christ. Anything in our hearts but Christ is not pure, and that is so because Christ is the only pure being to ever have lived.
So, if the hope of a pot of gold or of a world is in there, that is not Christ. If there is hope for excellence, it is not Christ. If there is hope for anythigng but Christ, it’s sin.
I’ so excited, Martin stated the following:
My second objection is that the early Mormon prophets definitely knew (or thought they knew) EXACTLY how God became God. They saw it as their calling and their mission to tell people about how to follow God into Godhood IN THIS LIFE.
When janet says “we cannot know in this life”, its crazy talk, when we consider the strenuous efforts of these prophets to tell us, in this life, exactly how it is done. She is nullifying the teachings of her own prophets. Why? What gives her the right?
I have been a member for a very long time, and now Martin is going to post, hopefully, exactly how to become God or Goddesses. Our viewers will also hopefully be at ease to know that there is an answer. I will be holding my breath anxiously awaiting the details of the How, What and Who of becoming a God. Now remember, I know what Ordinances must be performed and the Commandment I must keep, but never before until now will it be explained How I will become a Goddesses. Maybe there was a class or two I must have missed.
Janet 🙂
Olsen said:
I have a real problem with this statement. First of all, where would ‘EV’s’ be getting this information from? This doctrine of three degrees within degrees is totally unbiblical, and many Mormons admit they know little about it. But doing some simple research, it is easy to see what EXACTLY is necessary to enter into the celestial kingdom – this is not ‘exaltation’ as described by many Mormon leaders, it is qualifications to go to the celestial kingdom.
First of all, Smith made this statement later included in the D&C:
Brigham Young defined very well what is ‘celestial law’:
How is one to even get to the celestial kingdom (even the lower degrees) without being able to bypass the ‘sentinels’ that guard the way? Simple answer: You can’t. Brigham Young (again):
.
That is why Smith taught:
If only baptism is necessary to get into the CK, then why does Smith require that ALL the ordinances be done for the dead? Again, Young:
Smith elaborates on how this is to be done:
Is it any different for those who never heard the gospel, than it is for believing Mormons now? NO. The only exception is if you died before you were eight years old. To make this clear, Young again:
And then there is Wilford Woodruff:
How can ANYONE ‘walk back to the presence of the Father, without the Endowment? To gain the celestial kingdom one must LIVE A CELESTIAL LAW, which Young says is the PRIESTHOOD. Without it, you are stuck at the back of the line, because you do not have your secret password and handshakes. Since those who are not married may also enjoy the presence of the Father and the Son, to get into their presence, you MUST have the endowment. Baptism will not be enough, you will not have the knowledge necessary (according to Smith & Young) to get back into the company of God. If these ordinances are absolutely necessary to get back into the presence of God, then all who wish to ENTER the celestial kingdom MUST have them performed while they are living or by proxy after they are dead. (Also, D&C 76 was written by Smith BEFORE the endowment) Is there any other way explained by ANY Mormon Authority to ‘get back into the presence of God’ EXCEPT through the Endowment? If there is, (accept for little children) I have not heard it. So YES, the EV’s ARE CORRECT when they say a person MUST receive the Temple Ordinances to get into Mormon Heaven.
you’re an ace reporter, grindael. 🙂
I think you do error in quoting and misrepresenting or assuming that you know our doctrine of Exaltation and Celestial Glory.
Baptism is the first ordinance, baptism is often described as the gateway to the celestial kingdom, that is, the highest kingdom of heaven wherein one’s progression towards exaltation can take place.
Key words, “can take place”. The final two ordinances necessary for exaltation, the endowment and marriage for time and eternity, can only be performed in “houses of the Lord,” that is, temples of the LDS Church.
The final ordinance needed for exaltation is marriage, specifically a temple marriage.
If baptism is the gateway or entrance into the celestial kingdom, the highest kingdom of heaven, then an eternal marriage is the gateway or entrance into the highest level of the celestial kingdom, wherein human progression can reach fruition and exaltation can be attained.
Everything you quoted is geared towards exaltation, not entrance into the Celestial Kingdom.
Joseph Smith taught that the celestial kingdom itself is subdivided into three “heavens or degrees”. Only those individuals who are sealed in celestial marriage to a spouse in a temple while alive (or after death by proxy) will be permitted to enter into the highest degree of celestial kingdom. These individuals will eventually become “exalted” and will be permitted to live “the kind of life God lives”.
Again to be exalted:
Latter-day Saints are taught that they can become kings and queens in God’s kingdom through performing ordinances such as the endowment, and by doing their best to be faithful to the covenants that the ordinances represent. Celestial marriage, or sealing, is also part of the requirement for being exalted. Exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom is the ultimate goal of faithful LDS Church members.
Janet
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 131
Instructions by Joseph Smith the Prophet, given at Ramus, Illinois, May 16 and 17, 1843. HC 5: 392–393.
1–4, Celestial marriage is essential to exaltation in the highest heaven; 5–6, How men are sealed up unto eternal life; 7–8, All spirit is matter.
1 IN the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.
If you don’t have the secret handshakes, passwords, key grips, points of fellowship to GET PAST THOSE THAT GUARD THE GATES TO THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM, then how do you get in AT ALL? YOU CAN’T. How do you get that knowledge – the endowment. Does Baptism give you that knowledge? NO. Again we see another Mormon who does not know what they are talking about. (Once again).
MJP,
I disagree with your last comment ”So, if the hope of a pot of gold or of a world is in there, that is not Christ. If there is hope for excellence, it is not Christ. If there is hope for anything (sic) but Christ, it’s sin.” because of the following teachings in the Bible
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
If we look at the Beatitudes in Matt 5, all of the attributes have a reward given to them and it states quite specifically in the last –
Matt 5:11-12 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Finally Matt 20:1-16 is a parable of Jesus selecting His ‘workers’ to find those who are His sheep (ie working in the field). At the beginning Jesus promises a ‘reward/payment’ for the work performed. That is the only incentive given for these people to do the work, which is why some of them complain that they should be paid more because they did more work. But still, it is Jesus teaching that there IS a reward promised to everyone who believes in and works for Him and it IS OK to keep that in mind. I do agree with some of your sentiment that it should not be the only focus that you lose sight of Jesus atonement, but if He has promised a reward, part of believing in Him is acknowledging that you can and will receive that reward in the end.
Evidences and Reconciliations
Aids to Faith in a Modern Day
John A. Widtsoe
58. ARE ALL EXALTED WHO ENTER THE CELESTIAL GLORY?
Aperson’s works, under the loving mercy of the Father, determine his final judgment, whether he shall inherit the celestial, terrestrial, or telestial glory. The conditions for entering the celestial glory, the only one with which the Church is concerned, are set forth in soul-lifting words in section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants. (See verses 50-70) The conditions there enumerated are those which the Church has always taught men to accept and obey.
Within each glory, composed of innumerable beings, there appear to be several, perhaps many, degrees to fit gradations of attainment or capacity among various groups. It is somewhat like the practice of some universities. All who have fulfilled the requirements are graduated with the same degree and are made members of the alumni association. But, some receive upon their diploma added commendations according to the excellence of their work, ‘with honors,” “with high honors,” or “with highest honors.” Or perhaps a better comparison—some have qualified, in addition to the general requirements for professional service, in one of the many activities of society. So in the clestial glory, all faithful persons will receive some degree of exalation, but not all full exaltation. Only dimly do we understand conditions in the “other world.”
Joseph Smith the Prophet declared that “in the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees.” Full exaltation means the attainment of the highest of these three degrees in the celestial glory. (D. & C. 131:1)
The Prophet further explained that to inherit this highest degree, to be fully exalted, a man or a woman must be married for time and eternity, sealed to someone by the “Holy Spirit of Promise.” (D. & C. 131:2-4; also 132:7) Such people have fitted themselves to carry on the work of the Lord by providing the means of salvation for others, their own progeny. They have eternal “increase”; they shall “continue”; they shall have no “end.” They are like the gods. They who are not so sealed remain “angels of God forever and ever.” (D. & C. 132:17)
This does not mean that those who have not married on earth, through no fault of their own, may not attain exaltation. For them the sealing ordinance may be performed vicariously; and then, if the work is accepted by them, they may receive all promised blessings following obedience to law.
The experiences of earth make this situation somewhat understandable. There are members of the Church who have received the gospel, and who are in fellowship with the Saints but who do not use all of the opportunities of the gospel. For example, they may not use all their privilege to receive the temple endowment, or to be ordained to the Priesthood. Though they may be active members of the Church, they have missed something that others have received, and must be classed accordingly.
Similarly, all who enter the celestial glory do not necessarily receive full exaltation therein.
59. DO THOSE WHO DIE BEFORE ACCOUNTABILITY RECEIVE EXALTATION?
The Lord, speaking to Joseph Smith the Prophet, declared that “little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten.” (D. & C. 29:46) He has further instructed his people that the law of the gospel does not become operative until children “begin to become accountable before me.” (D. & C. 29:47)
The age of accountability has been set for normal persons at eight years of age. (D. & C. 68:25) At that age baptism should be performed.
Those who die before the age of accountability have their bodies. If in their pre-existent state they have not made themselves unworthy, it is not thinkable that they will be deprived of any blessing held in reserve for the Saints of God. They will be in the hands of the Lord, who is full of love and justice. We may safely leave them there
Again, no answer on HOW they get into the Celestial Kingdom WITHOUT the Endowment Knowledge. That is why Smith said:
“It is not only necessary that you should be baptized for your dead, but you will have to go through ALL the ordinances for them, the same as you have gone through to save yourselves.” Keep up.
As Widstoe stated and the Mormon poster overlooked:
“ALL THIS having been done, he is qualified to ENTER the celestial kingdom. Keep up.
I mentioned those under eight. Keep up. Section 76 was written by Smith before his ‘revelations’ on the endowment. Keep up.
This has NOTHING TO DO WITH EXALTATION. (As I mentioned) Keep Up. Quoting about exaltation does not explain how those who are only baptized get into the Celestial Kingdom. But Young & Smith are clear on it: the Endowment. Keep up & pay better attention. Your lack of knowledge is showing.
janet responded to my earlier post with
janet,
I know there’s an undercurrent of sarcasm in your post, but I’ll deal with the issue.
I suggest we start with Brigham Young, writing in writing in the Journal of Discourses (JOD) 11:269, 1866
You wrote that you would hold your breath with excitement, but I suggest you start breathing again.
Brigham Young’s path to exaltation is not open to you.
Incidentally, Brigham Young’s path isn’t even a path to become like God; it’s a path to become like Brigham Young.
Martin, even if this was true and Its not, you are showing what? a path one must take, just as one must receive certain ordinances in the Temple, or keep all the commandment to the best of one’s ability.
How God received Godhead, who bestowed it on Him, what process was involved in learning, what steps beyond the veil were needed never has been addressed by any of our Prophets.
My statement still stands, we will not know until we cross through the veil of death what awaits us in our further progress of becoming a God or Goddess.
Martin you failed to answer the question. By the way, plural marriage is not a requirement.
Janet.
Primary 5: Doctrine and Covenants: Church History
The Prophet Receives a Vision of the Three Degrees of Glory
Who will live in the celestial kingdom? (D&C 76:50–52.) Explain that the celestial kingdom will include faithful members of the Church who have been baptized and confirmed and have kept the commandments (see enrichment activity 1).
The above from our own Church teachings.
Celestial Kingdom, faithful members church who have been baptized and confirmed and keep the commandments.
• Into how many parts is the celestial kingdom divided? (D&C 131:1.) Who will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom? (D&C 131:2–3.) Explain that in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom will be those who have made and kept sacred covenants (promises) in the temple, including being married for eternity in the temple. Remind the children that the highest degree of the celestial kingdom is the only place where families can live together.
Again you either complete fail to understand our doctrine, or you purposely misrepresent. So since you have been correct by me and others, we must assume you have a agenda to misrepresent.
Celestial kingdom as taught to our primary children.
1. This kingdom will include good people who did not believe the gospel when they heard it on earth, but believed it after they died. They obeyed some but not all of God’s commandments. This kingdom will also include those who accepted the gospel but did not fully obey the commandments.
Janet
Preparing for Exaltation: Teacher’s Manual
The Three Kingdoms of Glory
HOW CAN WE INHERIT CELESTIAL GLORY? (D&C 76:50–70)
We must:
a. Receive the testimony of Jesus (D&C 76:51).
b. Be baptized by one with priesthood authority (D&C 76:51).
c. Keep the commandments (D&C 76:52).
d. Receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (D&C 76:52–53).
e. Overcome the world by faith (D&C 76:53).
f. Be made perfect through the Atonement of Jesus Christ (D&C 76:69).
WHO ELSE WILL INHERIT CELESTIAL GLORY? (D&C 137:7–10)
Those who:
g. Die without a knowledge of the gospel but “would have received it with all their hearts” (D&C 137:7–9).
And those who:
h. “Die before they arrive at the years of accountability” (D&C 137:10).
7. There are three degrees of glory in the celestial kingdom. In order to receive the highest of these degrees, a person must be sealed to his or her spouse in the temple.
True. Have class members read, mark, and discuss Doctrine and Covenants 131:1–4. Then have a class member read the following statement by Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles about the highest degree of the celestial kingdom:
“Those who have met the highest requirements for this kingdom, including faithfulness to covenants made in a temple of God and marriage for eternity, will be exalted to the godlike state referred to as the ‘fulness’ of the Father or eternal life (D&C 76:56, 94; see also D&C 131; 132:19–20). … Eternal life is family life with a loving Father in Heaven and with our progenitors [ancestors] and our posterity” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1995, 115; or Ensign, May 1995, 86–87).
Be sure to emphasize that temple marriage is not a guarantee of exaltation in the celestial kingdom. Those married in the temple should strive to be exalted together in the celestial kingdom by continually growing in their love for each other and for the Lord.
Maybe Grindael should reconsider leaving the church seeing as he has misunderstood such fundamental doctrine all along.
Martin stated,
janet, I know there’s an undercurrent of sarcasm in your post, but I’ll deal with the issue.
I suggest we start with Brigham Young, writing in writing in the Journal of Discourses (JOD) 11:269, 1866
The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy
This quotation is often used in anti-Mormon sources. Unsurprisingly, they do not include the surrounding text which explains what Brigham Young had in mind on this occasion (italics show text generally not cited by the critics):
We wish to obtain all that father Abraham obtained. I wish here to say to the Elders of Israel, and to all the members of this Church and kingdom, that it is in the hearts of many of them to wish that the doctrine of polygamy was not taught and practiced by us…It is the word of the Lord, and I wish to say to you, and all the world, that if you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists at least in your faith, or you will come short of enjoying the salvation and the glory which Abraham has obtained. This is as true as that God lives. You who wish that there were no such thing in existence, if you have in your hearts to say: “We will pass along in the Church without obeying or submitting to it in our faith or believing this order, because, for aught that we know, this community may be broken up yet, and we may have lucrative offices offered to us; we will not, therefore, be polygamists lest we should fail in obtaining some earthly honor, character and office, etc,”—the man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory.
The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.[1] (emphasis added)
It is clear that Brigham was making several points which the critics ignore:
the command to practice plural marriage is from God, and it is wrong to seek to abolish a command from God
to obtain the blessings of Abraham, the Saints were required to be “polygamists at least in your faith”: i.e., it was not necessary that each enter into plural marriage in practice, but that they accept that God spoke to His prophets
it was wrong to avoid plural marriage for worldly, selfish reasons, such as believing the Church would fail, and hoping to have political or monetary rewards afterward
if one were commanded to enter into plural marriage (“had blessings offered to them”), and if one refused, God would withhold blessings later because of disobedience now.
Faithful Saints cannot expect to receive “all that the Father has” if they willfully disobey God if He chooses to command the practice of plural marriage.
But, in the context of this speech, “enter into polygamy” does not mean that all members at all times are required to be actual polygamists, but that they accept the doctrine (“polygamists at least in your faith”) and be ready to practice it if so commanded without regard for worldly pressures.
Source, This page is based on an answer to a question submitted to the FAIR web site, or a frequently asked question.
Ralph,
I think that MJP is trying to point out the truth of verses like Matt 6:3 “But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth”
It’s not that you’re not supposed to do good. It’s that you’re not supposed to do it for gain.
Clearly, this is not what Mormonism teaches. If you are being good so that you can become a god, or even just so you can get into heaven by the skin of your teeth, you are doing ‘good works’ for the wrong reasons.
I’d venture to say that most of what we (humans) think of as good is not anyway. A Christian submitted to Jesus and indwelt by the Holy Spirit will be used to do good, and they may not even know they’re doing anything at the time. And they certainly don’t want the glory for it – but only for people to see how wonderful JESUS/GOD is, and let Him have the glory.
I noticed you quoted a Hebrews verse. I’d suggest that you take time to read the rest of Hebrews, so you can see what is said therein about the necessity (or not) of priesthood and temples nowadays.
Again,
There is no ‘misrepresentation’ here. How does one who has DIED without the Mormon Gospel get into the celestial kingdom?. Their endowments are done by proxy. No one has answered how those who have have died without the mormon gospel will physically GET to that kingdom without the passwords ….
The only way to get there is to have the endowment work done for them. That is why Smith said you must do ALL the ordinances for them [dead people]. They can then either accept them or reject them in the next life. But they will need the endowment information to GET THERE.
Again, section 76 was written in 1832, Ten Years BEFORE Smith wrote the endowment ‘revelation’. Was the ‘endowment’ necessary in 1832? NO. It had not been given yet. Was it necessary in 1843 YES. That is why Brigham Young said:
“When we talk of the celestial law which is revealed from heaven, that is, the Priesthood, we are talking about the principle of salvation, a perfect system of government, of laws and ordinances, by which we can be prepared to pass from one gate to another, and from one sentinel to another, until we go into the presence of our Father and God”
Again, like I said above, the only ones Mormons don’t apply this to are those under 8. How do you get to the Celestial Kingdom Jim, WITHOUT all the secret mumbo-jumbo of the Endowment? YOU CAN’T. The only one ‘misrepresenting’ is Janet, AGAIN.
All this is predicated by living all the laws of the Mormon Gospel. Supposedly the Mormon God will ‘judge’ those who did not have the gospel to see if they ‘lived up to it’ in their hearts. But they still need the proxy work done to get to the Celestial Kingdom. Maybe the Mormons here should ‘reconsider’ reading their Church History. Their lack of knowledge about their own church is appalling.
Modern day Mormons may want to talk to their leaders about why they might have problems getting their Celestial Crowns. In an article in the Millennial Star from 1847 ‘A Diagram of the Kingdom of God’, it states:
It will be seen by the above diagram that there are kingdoms of all sizes an infinite variety to suit all grades of merit and ability. The chosen vessels unto God are the kings and priests that are placed at the head of these kingdoms. These have received their washings and anointings in the temple of God on this earth they have been chosen ordained and anointed kings and priests to reign as such in the resurrection of the just. Such as have not received the fulness of the priesthood (for the fullness of the priesthood includes the authority of both king and priest) and have not been anointed and ordained in the temple of the Most High may obtain salvation in the celestial kingdom but not a celestial crown. Many are called to enjoy a celestial glory yet few are chosen to wear a celestial crown or rather to be rulers in the celestial kingdom – Millennial Star, Vol. 9, pages 23-24
The ‘Fulness of the Priesthood’ is the Second Endowment. Smith was doing these in Nauvoo, but later church leaders cut it off. So without it, many Mormons will not be ‘rulers’ in the Celestial Kingdom like they dream of. There have been many changes in doctrines in the Mormon Church. This is only one of them. Mormons will deny, try to hide and twist the truth, but one thing is clear: it is not the simple process the ‘modern’ Mormon Church makes it out to be.
http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cgi-bin/showfile.exe?CISOROOT=/MStar&CISOPTR=562&filename=563.pdf
What is one of the purposes of the endowment? From Nauvoo accounts:
One of the purposes of the endowment was to give LDS the knowledge of the ‘words & tokens’ to ADMIT them to the Celestial Kingdom. It defies belief that Mormons would try to deny that this is so. This is NECESSARY for ALL to enter the ck, and WHY SMITH wanted it done for ALL by proxy. It may not be stressed NOW, because Mormons are trying to distance themselves from their HISTORY, but this IS MORMON DOCTRINE and it IS the TRUTH. Is there any Momron who will say that this is NOT NECESSARY TO GET BACK INTO THE MORMON GOD’S PRESENCE? If so, then you might as well stop building temples and doing work for the dead. It is NOT just about ‘baptism’. (And yes, this is part of ‘that stuff’ you must learn in this life to be a ‘mormon god’).
I agree. Grindael comes out here with MORMON quote after Mormon quote, to show everyone who has their own unique version of Mormonism what the Mormon leaders and religion really is. You can, if you want, keep believing what you want about your religion. But that will never make it true.
“This mortal probation was to be a brief period, just a short span linking the eternity past with the eternity future. Yet it was to be a period of tremendous importance. It would either give to those who received it the blessing of eternal life, which is the greatest gift of God, and thus qualify them for godhood as sons and daughters of our Eternal Father, or, if they rebelled and refused to comply with the laws and ordinances which were provided for their salvation, it would deny them the great gift and they would be assigned, after the resurrection, to some inferior sphere according to their works. This life is the most vital period in our eternal existence (Jos. Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:69). What you learn on the ‘other side’ makes NO DIFFERENCE. Martin is totally correct.
Another example of a ‘loaded’ statement by a Mormon Prophet:
“It is not enough to say I will do my best, but rather, I will do everything which is within my power; I will do all that is NECESSARY. Harold B. Lee, In Conference Report, Oct. 1970, 113–17; or Improvement Era, Dec. 1970, 28–30.
What is NECESSARY (for exaltation)?
Baptism
Gift of Holy Ghost
Live all Mormon ‘covenants’ or commandments. No ‘trying’ to do your best, you must do everything NECESSARY, including these:
Melchizedek Priesthood & Endowment (men)
Endowment or Celestial marriage (women)
New & Everlasting Covenant of Marriage (polygamy)
Second Anointing (Ordained King & Priest – Fulness of the Priesthood)
From an ‘official’ Mormon site (lds.org):
“After we are baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, much of our progress toward eternal life depends on our receiving other ordinances of salvation: for men, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood; for men and women, the temple endowment and marriage sealing. When we receive these ordinances and keep the covenants that accompany them, we PREPARE ourselves to inherit eternal life.”
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&index=5&sourceId=61810bbce1d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____
This bears repeating:
“Janet, I for one would never accuse you of “not using logic.” It is obvious you are a master of the logic of self-deception. Your posts on MRM give those who haven’t had much exposure to Mormon thought, a great frame of reference for understanding how a Mormon’s mind malfunctions. Thank You for that.”
How do LDS define eternal life? Because all your quotations, grindael, are in the context of obtaining eternal life or exaltation. The temple ordinances are designed with the highest level of that kingdom in mind. In this context, “Celestial Kingdom” is short for that highest level.
Are you trying to tell us we do not believe there are different glories or levels in the Celestial Kingdom?
Grindael- I sometimes think you are determined to prove LDS wrong no matter the cost and no matter their position- they must be wrong about everything no matter how trivial the issue. Why does this question even matter so much to you and other EVs here? If anything, your absolute insistence on proving wrong everything uttered by a mormon dismisses your standing as a reasonable or believable person. If you are to be believed, members who have studied the doctrines of the church their whole lives do not know ANYTHING about our own beliefs. Is a rational person really supposed to believe that?
Again- your quotations are ALL in the context of obtaining eternal life, which is the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom.
I have heard with my own ears a member of the quorum of the twelve explaining this very doctrine in person within the last year. Please don’t try to tell me that a guy who compares Thomas S. Monson to Adolph Hitler knows better than one of our own apostles.
You ask how the dead for whom work is done in the temple will know the passwords, etc. I have opinions, but they are simply opinions. Ultimately for us now, it really doesn’t matter. You just as well should ask how God will cleanse the earth or physically get any of us to heaven. Do you know how He will do such things?
By the way, read your excerpt from a “diagram of the Kingdom of God” again- it agrees perfectly with what the LDS are saying on this thread. Not sure why you don’t see that.
Jim, it really does not matter, misrepresentation is agenda driven.
Some ask why? Who really knows, the complete answer to that for some might be justification, once being Mormons themselves they have to make up things or misrepresent to feel good about the why of leaving the Church. For others it is just hard to believe they are wrong, and that what they have been fed for so many years is a fake religion based on some truths.
Here we have Grindael, swatting at gnat’s and completely confused about the different degrees even within the Celestial Kingdom, and confusing Temple ordinances geared for only one purpose, to teach us that the Highest Degree, Exaltation or Eternal life is only reachable when the Covenants and Priesthood are fully explained and shown to us. I won’t delve into the whole Ceremony, but enough to say that Grindael is so off base he fully and completely has misrepresented Eternal Life, Exaltation, and the Spirit of the Temple ordinances that one must commit too for one to become a King and Queen, to rule over worlds.
Brigham Young once stated that “there are but few, very few of the Elders of Israel, [and members of the church] now on earth, who know the meaning of the word endowment [the primary temple ordinance]. To know, they must experience….” —Discourses of Brigham Young, page 416.
Another LDS Church President, Harold B. Lee, stated that the teachings of the temple are “designed by a wise Heavenly Father who has revealed them to us in these last days as a guide and a protection throughout our lives, that you and I might not fail to merit exaltation in the celestial kingdom where God and Christ dwell” (Improvement Era, June 1967, page 144).
Grindael asks, “How do you get to the Celestial Kingdom Jim, WITHOUT all the secret mumbo-jumbo of the Endowment? YOU CAN’T. The only one ‘misrepresenting’ is Janet, AGAIN.”
Faith, Repentance, Baptism and Gift of the Holy Ghost, also performed in the Temple for the dead.
Janet.
janet wrote
I refer you to the earlier quotes from your prophets.
I don’t know why the FAIR website would try to ignore them, or misrepresent them, but the phrase “damage control” springs instantly to mind.
Who are we to believe; the modern LDS movement, or its founding fathers?
With such a gap between the modern LDS movement and the teachings of its founding fathers, I’ve got to ask how SLC Mormonism cannot be hopelessly apostate?
Then again, we really need to ask which species of Joseph Smith’s Mormonism it subscribes to; there are so many of them.
Jim,
I will put this as simply as I can (for your benefit & for the chuckler – call this the mormon pre-school version in ‘her’ case) How does one get into the lower levels of the CK (where the mormon god is sometimes?) without the passwords? If you look at the endowment ceremony you must pass through the lower kingdoms on up to the ck. One may not be able to pass a certain lower level, but you must have those passwords to get from one level to the next. What is the purpose then, for all those tokens and passwords? Why did Smith say to do ALL the ordinances for ALL men same as YOURSELF? So those that ACCEPT the ordinances will have the endowment done for them HERE so they have the new name and passwords to get to the ck, or as old school mormons put it CELESTIAL GLORY. They may not be ‘exalted’ in the ck, but they need the endowment to get there AT ALL. What did all those spirits in prison do to bypass the angels and guardians of the kingdoms? Or did they all get a ‘hall pass’?
Chuckler makes a serious mistake, I for one went through the temple. Did the ‘chuckler’? So I qualify as one ‘who has experienced’. The Chuckler has shown ‘her’ gross ‘lack of knowledge’ concerning Mormonism & the endowment (can the Chuckler say the same about ‘experiencing’ it?), so I won’t pursue that here other than to say leave it to a Mormon ‘scholar’ to post a quote from a prophet who had just fully introduced the endowment. (hint: that was why he said there were few that knew anything about it) This alone shows the lack of depth or knowledge in that poster.
Yes, I did include exaltation in my last post (look and you will see it there) and I am well aware of the difference. Your statement (original) is not true.
All must have the endowment to get to any level of the CK just by the fact that they need the passwords to get from the lower kingdoms to the higher one (because the Mormon god lives in all levels of the CK).
“Then Peter assisted by James & John conducts them through the Telestial & Terrestrial kingdom administering the charges and tokens in each & conducts them to the vail where they are received by the Eloheem & after talking with him by words and tokens are admitted by him into the Celestial Kingdom….”
Where they live in the CK and whether they go to ‘mormon god school on how to create worlds’ is determined by how they lived here and what ordinances were done for them.
What Mormons do is try to blanket their statements and say it ALL has to do with exaltation. It does not. You are the ones who cannot or will not see this. The endowment is a pattern to follow, a guide if you will, through the viels that separate the kingdoms. Again, Section 76 was written 10 years before Smith invented the endowment. In that time period he even changed his belief about who God was and that there was more than one God. He was also calling God the Father Jehovah.
How do you Jim, when you wish to become a god, get to the ck WITHOUT your passwords? What are they for then?
You give your passwords to ascend from one level to the next. You can’t get there without them and the only way to get them is…..
through the endowment, whether done to yourself of having it done by proxy and ‘accepting’ it.
Frankly, Your Mormon leaders are liars. Any man who would proclaim to be a prophet when they are not, is evil, like Hitler was. They deny, twist and change doctrines to suit their own agenda, even directly contradicting other apostles and prophets & conveniently forgetting doctrines like god was once a man. How can one honestly believe anything they say? That is your weakness and your folly: following men and believing them instead of just Jesus. Today they can’t even tell people where the book of mormon geography is, so why would anyone go to them to get info on the degrees of glory? You have to go to the FORMER church leaders for that.
How can a prophet not have an ‘official position’ on ANYTHING? Either you know, or you don’t. They are seers and revelators aren’t they? Their deafening silence on so many issues is the lowest cut of all. The problem with your former prophets, is they CLAIMED to know these things. But not anymore.
I would quote some examples for you, [from those leaders about their LYING] but you obviously have on your Mormon ‘urim and thummim’ glasses and only see what you want to see. As for the ck and ‘other levels’ you both read what you want to read. Quoted above by grindael:
Young doesn’t say pass through the doors to the HIGHEST DEGREE. To live in the Celestial Kingdom you must live a Celestial Law. Dwelling with them is not only in exaltation. You must live just like all the other Mormons, and do what is necessary. Though you may be single in eternity, you still live in the CK with the mormon god as a slave.
Again, different levels (as explained by the diagram):
“Many are called to enjoy a celestial glory yet few are chosen to wear a celestial crown or rather to be rulers in the celestial kingdom.” (showing there are inner ‘levels’ or degrees)
“Such as have not received the fulness of the priesthood (for the fullness of the priesthood includes the authority of both king and priest) and have not been anointed and ordained in the temple of the Most High may obtain salvation in the celestial kingdom but not a celestial crown.”
Were you ordained a KING AND PRIEST JIM? Have you had your second endowment? Will you be a ruler or be left out because your leaders don’t give second anointings any more?
Did you not see my comments about the lower levels or are you just saying I don’t know, or am trying to say there were no inner degrees for the hell of it? Or perhaps you do what Janet admitted to, skim over comments without really reading them? That is a good way to ‘stay in the dark’ & attribute statements to people they did not make, or claim to have only opinions that are not factual. If all you have is opinions, making the statement that….
“I have very often heard EVs claim that we believe a person must receive all the temple ordinances to enter the Celestial Kingdom. And this is not true.”
…. should be changed then to THIS IS JIM’s opinion, NOT this is not true. I just proved it was true. And yes, I know much more about the Mormon Church than you do.
JIM
If I am SO FAR OFF on how this doctrine is interpreted, here is a Mormon site with some interesting comments you might want to read to see what ‘your community’ is thinking about this & the disconnect between the old school of Mormon thought on the CK, and the new …Your problem Jim, is that you always see my approach as ONE SIDED. That could not be farther from the truth. I have read every post on the link below and researched them & many many other places to come up with the answer that I did. I actually cultivate [some] Mormon Opinion. The quote from the Millennial Star came from this source. Some had the same take on it that I did. These Mormons at least approach the doctrine LOGICALLY, not with the blinders you & the Chuckler wear
That is one reason I say I know more about the Mormon Church than you do. I see it from both sides, but have left the ranks of the TBM’s because it does not live up to it’s claims. I don’t try to justify the mistakes, illogic & lies anymore or live by BLIND FAITH. I leave that to such as you & the Chuckler, who quotes from Primary Manuals because that is obviously the level of the Chuckler’s knowledge.[see addendum below] As I’ve said before: Prophets that don’t prophecy, seers that don’t see, and revelators that reveal: NOTHING.
http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/18/is-the-celestial-kingdom-divided-into-three-subdegrees/
Addendum:
“Faith, Repentance, Baptism and Gift of the Holy Ghost, also performed in the Temple for the dead”.
This is one of the stupidest things I have ever read: ‘performing’ faith and repentance in behalf of dead people. Where is the documentation on that? How do you ‘perform’ faith and repentance? Faith by proxy? Repentance by proxy? What, do they give FAITH and REPENTENCE by the laying on of hands now? Gee, I guess this way everyone gets into the mormon heaven. Has the chuckler EVER been to the Temple? When I did proxy work in the Oakland Temple, there was nothing like that there. This is a Mormon giving true informed doctrine? A Mormon that says others don’t know what they are talking about? A Mormon whose favorite word is ‘snippets’. This must be the Gospel according to the “Chuckler”, Or perhaps it comes from the lost book of Joseph? YEP, just swatted another gnat.
From your Teacher’s Manual: (lesson 45)
If these spirits accept the gospel, what else is REQUIRED before they can ENTER the celestial kingdom? (Baptism, bestowal of the gift of the Holy Ghost, and other earthly ordinances.) Notice nothing said about exaltation or ‘the highest degree’. Read this Chapter but you won’t find anything about Faith or Repentance in there.
🙂 Chuckle on that.
Jim said:
“You ask how the dead for whom work is done in the temple will know the passwords, etc. I have opinions, but they are simply opinions. Ultimately for us now, it really doesn’t matter.”
That is my point. The whole endowment DOESN’T MATTER. If you become a god, what do you need passwords and handshakes for? Are the porters at the door going to ‘bounce’ you if you don’t have the right name? If you get the ‘grip’ wrong? It is all silly superstitious nonsense that even many Mormons don’t understand.
That is why they have changed it and tried to make it more palatable in the last few years. But they can’t change that it is ultimately meaningless dribble spouted from a group of men with god complexes.
Mormons have lost focus on who is the author of their salvation: Jesus. He alone saves us, not some mystical, occult ceremony that has grown men and women in one century covenanting to slit their own throats if they reveal some phony rites stolen from the masons, and in another wondering why their ‘prophets’ took all of it out of the ceremony.
What is REQUIRED is to BELIEVE ON HIS [JESUS] NAME, admit you are a sinner, be baptized and live like he did.
You will either be with HIM or you won’t. You won’t be stuck in some man’s version of a compartmentalized heaven that typifies the maze that is Mormonism.