…on that morning like this?
—————————————–
Toward the dawn of the first day of the week,
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb…
the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid,
for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.
He is not here, for He has risen, as He said.
Matthew 28:1-6
Chuckle, when I stated Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and Gift of the Holy Ghost and one can find it in the temple as ordinances for the dead you as a one time Temple worthy LDS no full well what I alluded too.
Baptism and Gift of the Holy Ghost are two essential ordinances done for the dead, but on the other side of the veil, Faith and Repentance would be needed to apply both these ordinances when accepted by free will and acknowledging that Jesus is the Christ.
Again you misrepresent ordinances, covenants, and the spirit of the Temple.
Janet.
No, you stated:
“Faith, Repentance, Baptism and Gift of the Holy Ghost, also PERFORMED in the Temple for the dead”.
If you are already dead, how can you repent?
Doesn’t make sense, like the rest of your posts.
“Perfect knowledge” No, perfect chuckle
Perhaps the Mormon needs a lesson from their own scriptures (Alma 34):
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth bpossess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
You don’t get to repent after you die. But perhaps, I am misrepresenting ordinances, covenants and the spirit of the temple by quoting this mormon scripture.
Or perhaps … just perhaps … you are wrong?
Celestial Kingdom and Celestial Glory, or Exaltation.
In the Celestial Kingdom-the highest degree of glory, people have the opportunity to enter into the exalted state of Godhood. In the presence of God the Father.
“They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given–That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.”
Since only faithful members of the restored, true Church of Jesus Christ are baptized with proper authority, only Latter-day Saints can inherit the Celestial Kingdom in these last days. Of course-as explained above-while authoritative baptism is necessary, it alone is not sufficient. Most Latter-day Saints will not meet the other requirements and therefore will not enter celestial glory. Nor will everyone who inherits the Celestial Kingdom also be granted the great privileges associated with Godhood and eternal family relationships:
President Joseph Fielding Smith taught: “All who have died without a knowledge of the gospel, or the opportunity to receive it, who would have accepted it had the opportunity been presented to them while living, are also heirs of [the celestial] kingdom.”[27] People who rejected the gospel during their mortal sojourn, but later received it in the world of spirits will inherit either a terrestrial or telestial salvation.
Heaven and the Degrees of Glory
by W. John Walsh
Janet. 🙂
The above mishmash of quotes says NOTHING about repenting after you die. Once again, mindless quotes that do not prove any point at all. (except you have no idea what you are talking about.)
bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Frustrating isn’t it, could be the reason you left, you really never quiet understood it and obviously you still don’t. You can misrepresent our Doctrine to all who are gullible enough to place you in a position of knowing, but you fail miserably when one on one with a LDS TBM.
So how do the dead receive there baptisms and gift of the Holy Ghost if not by the same principles the living do. Faith, Repentance, Baptism and Gift of the Holy Ghost.
Janet.
Grindael,
This life IS the time to repent. But what of all those who never heard of Christ, or who never really understood, or had a chance to receive ordinances. Your religion condemns them all to hell- am I wrong?
God’s plan is fair and merciful and logical.
You are the ultimate propagandist. You twist at every corner. The LDS religion you represent is nothing like the one I know and try to live. I am still mind-boggled by the source of venom inside of you.
Or wait- maybe, after all, you are right. You actually know what Janet, Ralph, and I believe better than we do. Wow- that is amazing. How do you do that?
Grindael was a believer at one time, until apostasy set in. In Alma 30, Mormon gives a lengthy account of a man he calls “Anti-Christ” (Alma 30:6), including a detailed summary of his false teachings.
With Grindael I believe it’s the following: Pragmatism, which determines whether something works.
Korihor Today
President Ezra Taft Benson has taught that “the Book of Mormon exposes the enemies of Christ. It confounds false doctrines and lays down contention. (See 2 Ne. 3:12.) It fortifies the humble followers of Christ against the evil designs, strategies, and doctrines of the devil in our day. The type of apostates in the Book of Mormon are similar to the type we have today. God, with his infinite foreknowledge, so molded the Book of Mormon that we might see the error and know how to combat false educational, political, religious, and philosophical concepts of our time.” (Ensign, Jan. 1988, p. 3.)
Janet
I generally don’t like anecdotal “evidence,” but I want to put this out there in this discussion. I was scheduled to teach a class recently on how Mormonism differs from historic Christianity. As I prepared, I told a good friend of mine what I intended to teach about the CK. This friend had been 20 years a Mormon, temple worker, etc. She left the LDS Church this past winter. As I told her my understanding of the requirements for entering the CK (my understanding recently amended due to Olsen Jim’s insistence on Mormon Coffee that adherence to only the first principles was required), my friend said with perfect confidence that I was mistaken. She said the Endowment is necessary to enter the CK, just as grindael has been saying, because one needs to know the signs to pass the sentinels on the way to the kingdom. My friend and I spent a good deal of time discussing this, and when it came down to the class I was teaching, I ended up telling the audience that there was some confusion on this point. Now, Janet suggests we non-Mormon critics try to misrepresent LDS doctrine. In truth, Mormons have such varying degrees of understanding and such wide opinions on what Mormon doctrine is or is not, that going to a Latter-day Saint is, in practice, a very unreliable way to find sound answers to questions about the Mormon religion. This is why many of us here at Mormon Coffee keep going back to the statements of LDS prophets and apostles. It is not that we think Mormons commenting here don’t know what they themselves believe, but that their personal beliefs and doctrinal opinions don’t necessarily line up with more authoritative LDS teachings.
Sharon, I have to admit that Doctrine as a whole can be learned at different levels of Testimony and Faith. I have taught many classes on Gospel Essentials Class and find that new and even older members do not have a compete and total grasp of our doctrine. Is this critical to becoming a faithful member, hardly, for as we study and learn and pray we advance or progress in our understanding and belief systems.
I have to inform you that you’re wrong and so is the Temple Worker that the Celestial Kingdom is decided upon Temple Ordinances when in fact the entry into it is Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and gift of the Holy Ghost, I also have worked in the temple, this in now way qualifies me as an expert in Doctrine.
Janet.
Sharon said,
“I generally don’t like anecdotal “evidence.”” Sharon, this entire board is filled with examples of Mormon posters and their various takes on Mormonism. A “truism” is a self-evident truth. Anyone who witnesses to Mormons encounters this virtually every time you witness. The fact is, there are as many beliefs as there are Mormons.
I would remind Janet and Jim that their opinions don’t mean squat in Mormonism. gindael at minimum, follows the admonitions of church leaders when they say:
“When the prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done”,”Whether it be by my own voice or the voice of my servants it is the same”,brethren. “Follow the brethren.They’ll never lead you astray,” and “follow the prophet” mantra.
Janet said, “Sharon, I have to admit that Doctrine as a whole can be learned at different levels of Testimony and Faith.”
I think that I’ll join the LDS church to take advantage of the social atmosphere and have instant recognition by those in authority at work (most of whom happen to be LDS). We’ll have that instant bond that seems to smooth out some the usual requirements for satisfactory performance. I’ll no longer be judged by my performance, but by what ward I attend and get bonus points if my boss knows my bishop! I’ll get phone calls from people that I don’t generally associate with congratulating me (as I recently observed when a co-worker married an LDS woman who used to be married to another co-worker who fell off the Mormon wagon. As news spread he had been baptized into the church he suddenly had friends coming out of the woodwork.) My kids can get assigned to the teacher we want at school and get invited to all of the best birthday parties. It’s not like I actually need to believe LDS doctrine. I can just affirm that Jesus is the Christ and say that I have received the gift of the Holy Ghost (I believe both of those things). Then I’ll just cross my fingers as someone with the “proper authority” baptizes me into the church. Since I don’t need to participate in the pagan rituals in the temple I’ll be golden. I can just say, “No thanks, I’d rather not. It’s not like I need them, right? Wink wink.” When asked about my beliefs that don’t match up with official church doctrine I’ll just say that I have a different testimony and faith that I received through revelation and reading of the scriptures. As we see so often on MC I can can create my own brand of Mormonism, and chances are my beliefs will never come up. Who can question my personal revelation anyway? How can someone else tell me what I believe I learned from the Holy Ghost and the reading of the scriptures? And what’s even better is that I’ll actually be able to prove my beliefs from the bible.
As various as our take might be, we see example after example of distortion, criticisms, and accusations that either have some factual evidence but do not completely or accurately reveal 100% total factual evidence by those trying to discredit our Religion, most often decrying talking points that have been dismissed already with well researched work done by professionals in their different fields of expertise.
Janet.
Janet, by what standard do you make your blanket statement? When someone posts statements or scripture from an LDS prophet or apostle that you don’t like you accuse them of being inaccurate. Just because you don’t like something, or believe that it is not true, does not mean that it’s not true. Remember, your prophets and apostles are the ones who have a direct link to God, not you or the supposed professionals who have discredited our attacks. You have no authority to decide what is and is not doctrine. Unfortunately for you and the other LDS who post here, your prophets recorded their teachings, which make them doctrine. Your faith is a mass of confusion which is made evident by the constant need for LDS members and apologists to run around and put out the fires started by their misguided prophets and apostles, who refuse to provide clarity on the most basic issues. It’s hard to get more than four of them to agree on anything, just like you don’t necessarily believe everything your church teaches, because you have your own testimony and faith. For example, you can say that man will become god easily enough, because that is recorded church doctrine that you want to believe, but GBH didn’t want to admit it to the world when questioned because he knew it reeks of blasphemy to most people. Instead of defending restored truth revealed by modern day prophets, he made excuses and took the easy way out by trying not to damage the mainstream image of the church that he had so carefully crafted while president. I think I’ll take his testimony over yours and count it as evidence that he was no more inspired by God than the kid who bags my groceries.
Janet and Jim are suffering from symptoms of seeing the truth but not being able to believe it. They are all caught up in the cult and will not open their eyes and see the truth of the quotes I post. They accuse me of twisting them, but all I do is quote them. They offer no evidence of their own, just watered down primary manual versions, or quotes from the ultimate liar Hugh Nibley, or they attack me, who only quotes Mormon sources about Mormon Doctrine. Their lame attempts at trying to discredit me will never change the facts, but they WILL keep trying to hide the truth, and tell people the NEW VERSION of Mormonism this generation has come up with to try and pawn on the unsuspecting that come in contact with their cult. They offer NO HARD EVIDENCE TO REFUTE ANYTHING I SAY – AND NEVER WILL.
Just for Grindael.
1 BEHOLD, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning.
2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.
3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.
4 Wherefore, enter ye in at the gate, as I have commanded, and seek not to counsel your God. Amen.
D&C 84: 64
64 Therefore, as I said unto mine apostles I say unto you again, that every soul who believeth on your words, and is baptized by water for the remission of sins, shall receive the Holy Ghost.
D&C 84: 74
74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am.
Again for Grindael who apparently does not get it.
Baptism, Gift of the Holy Ghost, equal Father’s Kingdom, where my Father and I am. So grindael please explain how this works with your lame deduction of only all the Temple Ordinances will qualify you. Not using primary teaching manuel, but the Standard works that explain our doctrine, nice try.
Mark 16:15-16 (King James Version)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Now apparently even the Bible vouches for the above. But notice that Evangelicals put the ordinance of Baptism on the back burner, claiming it is not essential to be saved. This can be another topic, since we are not making this a issue yet, but for our visitors I did.
Janet.
Now here is something we also teach, almost any Sunday you can find in our Churches the teaching as follows from the Bible, one of our standard works.
Jesus taught that baptism is necessary for salvation. He told Nicodemus, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:1—5). He required baptism of those who professed to become his disciples (John 4:1—2). His farewell commission to his apostles was that they should go to all nations, teaching and baptizing (Matt. 28:19), and he declared, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16:16; emphasis added). Paul, after his miraculous vision on the road to Damascus, was taught the gospel by Ananias who told him to “arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins” (Acts 22:16). To the penitent multitude on the day of Pentecost, Peter proclaimed, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38).
From our other standard works we have the following:
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not, and is not baptized, shall be damned” (D&C 112:29). This is the central teaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ (3 Ne. 11:31—40).
The lowest degree in the Celestial Kingdom does not necessitate Temple Ordinances. The second and highest do.
Celestial Glory
Mormons believe in “eternal progression,” that is, that men are becoming gods, and that God Himself was once a man who became our God. McConkie quotes Joseph Smith:
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man… God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth…”Within the celestial kingdom there are three distinct glories. Entrance into the lower level of the celestial kingdom requires faith, repentance, baptism, and receiving the Holy Ghost. (This level also includes children who die before the age of eight.)
Source, http://www.chick.com/reading/books/126/126_0
Do I have to explain Mormon Doctrine to the Mormons? Are they too dense to understand the point I was making? OBVIOUSLY.
Mormons baptize for the dead ONLY so the those on the other side can accept it or reject it. They do it so ‘everyone’ will have a chance to ‘be baptized’. I did not contend this point. They teach it.
Where the chuckler goes off track is thinking that those on the other side CAN REPENT. They CANNOT. Read the Miracle of Forgiveness again chuckler to see how WRONG you are. The Baptism for the dead is for those WHO WILL BE JUDGED ACCORDING TO THE MORMON gods standard.
These are those who WOULD HAVE ACCEPTED THE MORMON GOSPEL IF THEY HAD HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO SO HERE. I am well aware of the doctrine. They are baptized here, and HAVE THE OTHER ORDINANCES PERFORMED HERE SO THAT IF THEY PASS THE MORMON GOD’S JUDGEMENT THEY CAN GO TO THE CK.
Obviously the chuckler thinks they can have faith and repent on the other side. THIS IS NOT MORMON DOCTRINE. PERIOD. They can only accept or reject it. THAT IS ALL. But some Mormon Prophets have contradicted their own doctrine with ordinances like ‘restoration of blessings’. I dealt with that on the Amasa Lyman thread.
I know what Mormons teach. I don’t agree with it. That is beside the point. MY WHOLE POINT WAS TO GET INTO THE CK AT ALL, (any level of the ck) YOU MUST HAVE THE ENDOWMENT. I HAVE PROVED THIS. THE BAPTISM ISSUE IS A DIVERSION BY THE CHUCKLER, who thinks I don’t understand the doctrine.
Smith was heartbroken over his brother Alvin. He wanted him to go to heaven. So he made up the BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD doctrine.
There is no need for it, for it is ALL IN THE HANDS OF GOD WHO I KNOW IS FAIR AND JUST.
Now, I will post about the allegations and fantasies that the chuckler made about me and WHY the Mormon Church is false. So get ready LURKERS …. a lot more is coming.
Jim:
You are wrong (about my religion). I believe in Jesus and the Bible.(that is my ‘religion’) Where I go to ‘worship’ is only a building with other Christians. What does it say IN THE BIBLE about those who do not accept Jesus? You can answer that on your own.
The chuckler said:
Grindael was a believer at one time, until apostasy set in. In Alma 30, Mormon gives a lengthy account of a man he calls “Anti-Christ” (Alma 30:6), including a detailed summary of his false teachings. I was then likened to Korihor from the Book of Mormon. Who was Korihor?
“And this Anti-Christ, whose name was Korihor, (and the law could have no hold upon him) began to preach unto the people that there should be no Christ.” Korihor then went about preaching this, and came before Alma (who struck him dumb), so he wrote: But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God. And I have taught his words; and I taught them because they were pleasing unto the carnal mind; and I taught them, even until I had much success, insomuch that I verily believed that they were true; and for this cause I withstood the truth, even until I have brought this great curse upon me.” Then poor Korihor went around begging for food until the Zoramites murdered him.
Gee, this sounds just like the Smith story. Smith was even murdered at the end, just like Korihor. So I am called an anti-Christ & Apostate and likened unto Korihor?
What is apostasy?
Apostasy (pronounced /əˈpɒstəsi/) is the formal religious disaffiliation or abandonment or renunciation of one’s religion, especially if the motive is deemed unworthy. Apostasy is generally not a self-definition: very few former believers call themselves apostates and they generally consider this term to be a pejorative.
Many religious movements consider it a vice (sin), a corruption of the virtue of piety in the sense that when piety fails, apostasy is the result. (from wiki)
Let’s look at a real Mormon apostate shall we. I did a thread on him, Amasa Lyman. He taught:
[Jesus] “was a good man.” He acknowledged that Jesus “died for the world,” but added, “and what man that ever died for the truth that he died for, did not die for the world? … Have we found redemption through them? … We may talk of men being redeemed by the efficacy of [Christ’s] blood; but the truth is that that blood had no efficacy to wash away our sins. That must depend upon our own action.” – JOD:7:297-299
Lyman taught this in 1859 in the Tabernacle. There was not one objection to this teaching until years later and it was published in the Journal of Discourses. Here is what Wilford Woodruff said (quoting Brigham Young) in 1867:
They allowed these men to preach these doctrines for many years. They cut off Lyman, and left Pratt an apostle knowing he did not believe in the mormon god. Lyman was a true APOSTATE, & at the end Jos. F. Smith said this about Amasa Lyman after He RESTORED ALL HIS BLESSINGS AFTER HE DIED:
“President Smith said during his talk that he was sure that Amasa Lyman had paid the penalty for his wrong doing & would have all his wives and children who were worthy in eternity.”
Pratt eventually shut up and bowed to Young’s authority.
But this APOSTLE, this ‘special witness for Jesus Christ’ still never believed in the same God the other Mormon Authorities did. They denounced his writings in ‘the Seer’ and other publications, and many have had a field day with their statements at the expense of the Mormon Church.
To show you how sad a case Orson Pratt was, here is Woodruff again:
.”O. Pratt said that he had often wished that he could get faith enough to enjoy the blessings the ancient apostles enjoyed. He said Joseph taught that unless the apostles and elders of this Church did fast and pray until they could get the heavens opened unto them so they could see the face of the Lord, their resting(sic) would not be worth much to this generation” – Diary entry, Feb. 21, 1859
I guess Pratt never did get that witness, but he was still retained as an apostle. Here is another gem from the same entry:
Same meeting, O. Hyde said that he must confess that he was more stupid and dull than he wished to be. He thought it was in consequence of going without food and tobacco, which he had been in the habit of using..
I guess the fasting got to him. When was the word of wisdom given? Even the apostles did not live up to it though they excommunicated some for breaking it in the 1830’s & 40’s. But because of who they were, it was allowed to ‘pass’. He was not the only one. But here is the hypocrisy of it all:
On August 19, 1835, Mr. Babbitt was brought to trial, one of the charges being “that he was not keeping the Word of Wisdom.” In his own defense Babbitt “said that he had taken the liberty to break the Word of Wisdom, from the example of President Joseph Smith Jun., and others, but acknowledged that it was wrong …” (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 252).
But if you were an apostle, it was ok to break the commandments, lie and teach false doctrine.
I have stated my reasons on multiple threads for leaving the Mormon Church.
The chuckler tries to feel ‘superior’ to denigrate me as such, but it could not be farther from the truth. What was my motive, the turning point of my leaving Mormonism? Once again, here is Bruce R. McConkie to Eugene England very shortly after I left the Church:
Young even changed the lecture at the veil to incorporate his adam-god doctrine. How many did he lead astray who believed in adam-god? How does this jibe with what Woodruff says here:
“Every man in this room who has a particle of the spirit of God, knows that President Young is a Prophet of God
and that God sustains him and he has the Holy Spirit and his doctrines are true, and that he is qualified to lead the people, and he has explained everything so plainly this evening that a child can understand it.” Diary, Jan. 1860 at a Meeting where they were condemning Orson Pratt for teaching false doctrine.
Just to prove that Woodruff knew and believed in adam-god and that the mormon god is still progressing, here are some entries:
March 4, 1860: President Young said I corrected O. Pratt today. I did not say to him that God would increase to all eternity. But I said the moment that we say that God knows all things, comprehends all things and has a fulness of all that he ever will attain, that moment eternity ceases.
December 16, 1867: At meeting of School of the Prophets: President Young said Adam was Michael, the Archangel, and he was the Father of Jesus Christ and was our God and that Joseph taught this principle.
You have apostles and prophets teaching false doctrine and leading many astray in the church. You have a modern apostle (McConkie) CONFIRMING THIS. Then McConkie calls Young a great prophet who has gone on to his eternal reward. How does this jibe with the statement:
“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so he will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. God bless you” (Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212-13; see also Official Declaration 1).
And you Jim, wonder why I left the Church! How do you reconcile this in your own mind? Do you just ignore all the evidence, and call people names who won’t believe these lies? How about owning up to the fact that MORMON PROPHETS HAVE TAUGHT AND BELIEVED FALSE DOCTRINE ABOUT WHO GOD IS. How about these ‘gems’ from Woodruff that Mormons say we are ‘making up’, misquoting or ‘twisting’ as you love to put it:
August 31, 1873: At Paris, Idaho: President B. Young spoke one hour and18 minutes. In his remarks he said that a man who did not have but one wife in the resurrection, that woman will not be his, but taken from him and given to another. But he may be saved in the Kingdom of God, but be single to all eternity. Mother Eve was the daughter of Adam.
Did Woodruff not understand Young? Did he ‘misquote’ him? He eventually became a prophet of the church! Here it is definitely stated by a prophet, who Woodruff says has the Spirit of GOD and that all his doctrines are true saying that if a man only marries one woman, she will be taken from him and given to another? Why? Read your history. Parable of the Talents. Young preached this over and over again. Woodruff STILL discontinued polygamy. Why? Because he was FORCED TO even after receiving this revelation:
A revelation given to Wilford Woodruff in the wilderness of San Francisco Mountains in Arizona on the 26th day of Jan. 1880.” Thus saith the Lord unto my servant Wilford Woodruff.
“And I say again wo unto that nation or house or people who seek to hinder my people from obeying the Patriarchal Law of Abraham which leadeth to a celestial glory which has been revealed unto my Saints through the mouth of my servant Joseph, for whosoever doeth those things shall be damned saith the Lord of Hosts and shall be broken up and wasted away from under heaven by the judgments which I have sent forth and shall not return unto me void.
And thus with the sword and by bloodshed and with famine and plagues and earthquakes and the thunders of heaven and the vivid lightnings shall this nation and the nations of the earth be made to feel the chastening hand of an Almighty God until they are broken up and destroyed, and wasted away from under heaven, and no power can stay my hand. Therefore, let the wicked tremble, let them that blaspheme my name hold their lips, for destruction will swiftly overtake them.
Gee, what happened? Nothing. The United States Prevailed and Woodruff caved to save his church. Where was the god Woodruff was talking to here? What happened? Mormons try to ignore these ‘revelations’ but they are there for all to see and read and take at face value. Here is a quote from the end of this entry:
“For thus saith the Lord, all of mine Apostles should be full of the Holy Ghost of inspiration and revelation and know the mind and will of God and be prepared for that which is to come. Therefore, let mine Apostles keep my commandments and obey my laws and the gates of hell shall not prevail against you. Fear not, for lo I am with you until I come. I come quickly even so, Amen.”
What was the will of Woodruff’s god concerning polygamy? Here it is as recorded by Abraham Cannon:
“During our meeting a revelation was read which Pres. Woodruff received Sunday evening, Nov’r 24th. Propositions had been made for the Church to make some concessions to the Courts in regard to its principles. Both of Pres. Woodruff’s counselors refused to advise him as to the course he should pursue, and he therefore laid the matter before the Lord. The answer came quick and strong. The word of the Lord was for us not to yield one particle of that which he had revealed and established. He had done and would continue to care for His work and those of the Saints who were faithful, and we need have no fear of our enemies when we were in the line of duty.
We are promised redemption and deliverance if we will trust in God and not in the arm of flesh … my heart was filled with joy and peace during the entire reading. It sets all doubts at rest concerning the course to pursue.” – Diary, December 19, 1889.
Where was the god of the Mormons who promised to destroy the United States? Were these men not prophets? Did they not have the spirit of the Mormon god? Again, they say one thing, then when circumstances don’t bear out their phony revelations, the mormon god changes his mind. This happens over and over again in the Mormon Church.
LURKERS
ANYONE THINKING OF BECOMING A MORMON NEEDS TO KNOW THESE THINGS AND SEE WITH OPEN EYES THE LIES, THE FALSE PROMISES OF THEIR PSUEDO JESUS, (YES, THEY DON’T BELIEVE IN THE BIBLICAL JESUS) THEY DIDN’T EVEN CALL JESUS JEHOVAH UNTIL AFTER THE 1900’s. THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE ALL YOU LURKERS AND MORMONS, JUST STOP BLINDLY FOLLOWING THE FALSE PROPHETS WHO TELL YOU THEY ARE IN COMMUNICATION WITH A REAL GOD. THIS IS A LIE, A DELIBERATE DECEPTION TO GET YOU TO JOIN THEIR CULT. MORMONS DON’T KNOW WHAT THEY BELIEVE, BECAUSE IT CHANGES WITH THE TIMES. THEY ARE BLOWN ABOUT BY EVERY WIND OF CHANGE THAT COMES THEIR WAY. BELIEVE IN THE JESUS OF THE BIBLE, AND THROW OUT ALL THE PHONY REVELATIONS. START A FIRE TODAY AND THROW IN THE BOOK OF MORMON, THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS AND PEARL OF GREAT PRICE. THEY ARE ALL BOOKS OF MEN, NOT GOD. BURN THEM ALL! WALK AWAY FROM THE MAZE OF MORMONISM AND YOU WILL NEVER BE HAPPIER. THIS I GUARANTEE BY THE PROMISE OF JESUS IN THE BIBLE: ‘Come unto me all ye that are heavy laden, and I WILL GIVE YOU REST.” Trust in Jesus and the Bible, not any Church of MEN who claim to be prophets that don’t prophecy, seers that don’t see, and revelators that reveal: NOTHING.
Here is the Mormon prophet’s explanation for why polygamy was stopped:
So how was this a revelation by God? Where was the mormon god that Woodruff was spouting off about until the United States passed the Edmunds Act? What it came down to was either polygamy goes or the church goes. Woodruff ‘pretended’ to have a revelation when all he did was stop an illegal practice BECAUSE HE WAS MADE TO BY THE UNITED STATES. So what the Mormon prophet said a year earlier:
“The word of the Lord was for us not to yield one particle of that which he had revealed and established.”
Now meant the mormon god changed his mind? What changed in a year? THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN COMPELLED TO STOP IT. The U.S. passed a law that they could dissolve the Church if they did not stop polygamy. Then, Lo and belhold! A convienent ‘revelation’ stopping it. So much for living up to the principles of their religion. Change with any wind that blows…that is Mormonism. Guess they should not have been breaking the law in the first place, huh? Then maybe their prophets wouldn’t have wound up looking so stupid. Maybe if they were real prophets, they would have seen this coming.
What a contrast to the real apostles, who were martyred one by one for their religion. In the face of all of Rome. Paul sitting in jail. You decide, Constant Readers, you decide.
“August 31, 1873: At Paris, Idaho: President B. Young spoke one hour and18 minutes. In his remarks he said that a man who did not have but one wife in the resurrection, that woman will not be his, but taken from him and given to another. But he may be saved in the Kingdom of God, but be single to all eternity. Mother Eve was the daughter of Adam.”
Please a source, a reference, a web site, a Diary, a Journal, something to verify and confirm this since you state that nothing ever gets twisted or misrepresented.
Janet.
Does the Book of Mormon contradict the idea of baptism for the dead by saying that you can’t repent after death?
I believe you are referring to Alma 34:33-35:
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
This does seem to say that the wicked will not be able to change after death. But the audience is the group called the Zoramites in the Book of Mormon, a group of former Nephites that had once had true religion but had rebelled against it and left. Alma, Amulek and others went to the rebellious Zoramite and preached the Gospel seeking to bring them back. The words of Amulek in Alma 34:33-35 can be understood to mean that those who have heard the Gospel and knowingly reject it, and who know they need to repent but refuse to do, cannot procrastinate repentance until the time of death or after. But this says nothing about those who have not had a fair chance to hear and accept the Gospel.
Janet, a quick Google search for the Woodruff quote turned up this online pdf file of excerpts from his journal: http://www.nhfelt.org/Doc_Other/Woodruff_Wilford.pdf See page 82. Grindael may have another source to cite, but in the meantime maybe this will be helpful.
For the dead that wait in spirit prison, they will be taught the Plan of Salvation. What is the Plan of Salvation? They are taught the basics of Faith, Repentance, Baptism and Gift of the Holy Ghost. When taught they can accept or reject this plan.
One of the tenants is Repentance and being forgiven.
The spirits of all of mankind continue to prepare for judgment day and their eventual resurrection where they will receive a reward according to their faith and works. They believe that righteous individuals continue to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ in the Spirit World, teaching others and offering them the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour and follow Heavenly Father’s plan.
Janet
I gave you the reference once before, the Wilford Woodruff Diary. Go look it up, it’s in there.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:CqlRdgaaT7QJ:www.nhfelt.org/Doc_Other/Woodruff_Wilford.pdf
Page 82.
July 15, 1871: At Paris: President Young said he wished all who had a plurality of wives to make their will, and thought it well for all men to doso.July 15, 1871: At Grantsville: President Young spoke 58 minutes. He said a man may embrace the law of celestial marriage in his heart and not take the second wife and be justified before the Lord.
My, my since he had already given a sermon on, “a man may embrace the law of celestial marriage in his heart and not take the second wife and be justified before the Lord.
So of course he was referring to those who did not seek to Have their marriages sealed for time and eternity. Those husband and wives had no contract other than marriage for this life alone.
Nice try, but again misrepresenting doctrine you wish not to learn or quote correctly.
Janet
janet wrote
…I’m still waiting to hear from you about how you regard Hosea’s marriage.
Why would God command a prophet to “take an adulterous wife”? (Hosea 1:2)
I know I’ve got an answer (God wants to demonstrate through Hosea His unmerited grace towards His people), but I’m hoping that you’ll tell me how this scenario fits into LDS expectations of celestial marriage. I mean, if our eternal destiny rests on our marital status, why command an adulterous wife? Further, if marriage was for eternity, then God must have been playing a cruel game with Hosea by getting him “sealed” to such a nightmare.
From the Miracle of Forgiveness
He preached the gospel to them ‘that they might be judged according to men in the flesh’ – they could not repent of the sins they had already committed, they could only accept the ordinances…
…done for them vicariously. They would then be assigned kingdoms according TO THEIR WORKS IN THE FLESH. Kimball continues:
They don’t get to ‘repent’. They only get to accept their baptism and if they ‘lived a celestial law’ on earth, they would get a celestial kingdom. If they lived a ‘terrestrial’ law, they would get a terrestrial kingdom. If they reject Jesus & the gospel in the spirit world, they get the telestial kingdom. But they can’t repent there, they can’t earn it there. This is Mormon Doctrine. What you seem to know NOTHING about.
Those are two separate issues Janet and one has nothing to do with the other. Young was talking about NOT taking another plural wife, it had nothing to do with ‘earthly marriages’. Show me the sermon where Young said so.
Also:
The sermon I made reference to was 2 years later than the one you are quoting Janet. Wow, talk about ‘twisting’ the truth.
Further Clarification on the Young quote:.
“Now, this advice I freely give,
If exalted you would be,
Remember that your husband must
Be blessed with more than thee.
Then, O, let us say,
God bless the wife that strives
And aids her husband all she can
T’ obtain a dozen wives.”
(1856 Reformation Song. Used as a Hymn in an edition of Songs of Zion.)
“Joseph Smith said that the parable that Jesus spoke of that the man who had one talent and hid it in the earth was the man who had but one wife and would not take another, would have her taken from him and given to the one who had the more.” Erastus Snow, Meeting of the First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve, Wilford Woodruff Journal, October 14th, 1882
“But how,’ I asked, ‘Can I teach my sister what I myself do not understand, or show her what I do not myself see?’ ‘But you will see and understand it,’ he said, ‘And when you open your mouth to talk to your sister, light will come to you and your mouth will be full and your tongue loose, and I will today preach a sermon to you that none but you will understand.’ Both of these promises were more than fulfilled. The text of his sermon was our use of the ‘one, five and ten talents,’ and as God had now commanded plural marriage, and as exaltation and dominion of the saints depended upon the number of their righteous posterity, from him who was then but with one talent, it would be taken and given him that had ten, which item of doctrine seems now to be somewhat differently constructed.” Benjamin F. Johnson to George F. Gibbs, 1903
Yeah, Johnson had it right. They changed the doctrine, but Smith & Young DEFINITELY taught that polygamy was ESSENTIAL and Woodruff caved to the U.S. & stopped it.
Here is Young expounding on the very same Doctrine Woodruff wrote about:
“Now, where a man in this Church says, ‘I don’t want but one wife, I will live my religion with one,’ he will perhaps be saved in the celestial kingdom; but when he gets there he will not find himself in possession of any wife at all. He has had a talent that he has hid up. He will come forward and say, ‘Here is that which thou gavest me, I have not wasted it, and here is the one talent,’ and he will not enjoy it, but it will be taken and given to those who have improved the talents they received, and he will find himself without any wife, and he will remain single for ever and ever. But if the woman is determined not to enter into a plural marriage, that woman when she comes forth will have the privilege of living in single blessedness through all eternity.” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses Vol. 16, p.166.
And where oh where did William Law get this idea from I wonder?
“The man that has got ten fair wives,
Ten worlds he may create;
And he that has got less than this,
Will find a bitter fate.
The one or two that he might have,
He’ll be deprived of then;
And they’ll be given as talents were,
To him who has got ten.”
(Buckeye’s Lament for Want of More Wives, Warsaw Message, February 7th, 1844.)
So here we see that this doctrine is not at all about ‘earthly marriages’ as the chuckler once again mistakenly tries to desperately prove. It is about POLYGAMY and it was taught that if a man does not have more than one wife, the one he has will be taken from him. So what does that say about how Woodruff caved to the U.S. Government and denied all those Mormons their exaltation? Or maybe…just maybe …. it is all just a fantasy, like the rest of the Mormon Maze.
Chuckle, the Maze one has to go through to make Doctrine that is clear and concise into something that no LDS would even recognize, for surely Grindael has twisted, bent, misrepresented and totally overstated all that he clearly tries to state as Doctrine when in fact he does not read from the context the clearly articulated words of those who practiced Plural Marriage by commandment and those who were not asked to or called to do so.
Beginning with, “a man may embrace the law of celestial marriage in his heart and not take the second wife and be justified before the Lord”. Here it clearly talking to the many members where in the Calling was not extended too, or to those who would live in a time that Gods Law was not in affect, such as spoken of in the Book of Mormon, where the Saints were told not to have more then one wife.
Brigham Young was clearly preaching the Law of Celestial Marriage and Exaltation, where in one must be sealed for time and eternity.
So of course he was referring to those who did not seek to Have their marriages sealed for time and eternity. Those husband and wives had no contract other than marriage for this life alone. Young spoke one hour and18 minutes. In his remarks he said that a man who did not have but one wife in the resurrection, that woman will not be his, but taken from him and given to another.
Nice try, but again misrepresenting doctrine you wish not to learn or quote correctly.
Twisted and misrepresented: October 14th, 1882
“Joseph Smith said that the parable that Jesus spoke of that the man who had one talent and hid it in the earth was the man who had but one wife and would not take another, would have her taken from him and given to the one who had the more.” Erastus Snow, Meeting of the First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve, Wilford Woodruff Journal, October 14th, 1882
Clear and concise, “subjects upon the Patriarchal order of marriage”. October 14th, 1882
October 14, 1882: We held a meeting with the Presidency, Twelve Apostles, andthe Presidents of Stakes. Remarks were made by President Taylor; then therevelation was read. G. Q. Cannon spoke to us and said how can we teach the people any law or principle that we do not keep ourselves? Joseph F. Smithspoke upon several subjects upon the Patriarchal order of marriage. PresidentTaylor told what Joseph Smith said to him upon that subject and said if we donot embrace that principle soon, the keys will be turned against us, for if wedo not keep the same law that our Heavenly Father has, we cannot go with him.The word of the Lord to us was that if we did not obey that law, we could notgo where our Heavenly Father dwells. A man obeying a lower law is notqualified to preside over those who keep a higher law. W. Woodruff said he wasglad the Quorum of the Twelve and Seventies were now to be filled and saidthat the reason why the Church and Kingdom of God could not progress if we didnot receive the patriarchal law of marriage was that it belonged to thisdispensation as well as the baptism for the dead and any law or ordinance thatbelongs to this dispensation must be received by the members of the Church orit cannot progress. The leading men of Israel who are presiding over stakeswill have to obey the Law of Abraham or they will have to stop.
Nice try Grindael, you have purposely taken context and obviously not shown in what the fuller context reveals.
Janet
Repent in Mortality, what Grindael overlooks.
1). Men and women who live in mortality and who have heard the gospel here have had their day.
2). The people of Noah’s day heard the message of the gospel from prophets of God.
3). They ignored the many testimonies of preachers of righteousness.
Grindael quotes scripture:
“And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.” (D&C 76:73-74.)
In the justice of God, every person will have the opportunity to gain a testimony of the truth, either in this life or in the spirit world before the day of the resurrection. (D. & C. 1:2.) Those who have a full and complete opportunity in this life, and who do not take it, may receive a second opportunity in the spirit world, but they will not have a second chance to gain salvation by their belated acceptance of the truth. Rather, they will go to a terrestrial kingdom because they “received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.” (D. & C. 76:73-74.)
Clearly, succinctly From the “Miracle of Forgiveness” Kimball is talking about those who have heard the Gospel and denied it or did not actively live it.
Obviously Grindael now shows why he left the LDS Church, he never fully understood Scripture and now quotes it out of context to justify his apostasy.
1). Were they ever to receive the celestial kingdom? They had had their opportunity; they had wasted the days of their probation; they had ignored the testimonies of the servants of God; they had followed the world and lived a worldly life.
Who? those who heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ. From who? they had ignored the testimonies of the servants of God
Chuckle, Grindael misrepresents by clearly stating a false assumption.
They don’t get to ‘repent’. They only get to accept their baptism and if they ‘lived a celestial law’ on earth, they would get a celestial kingdom. If they lived a ‘terrestrial’ law, they would get a terrestrial kingdom. If they reject Jesus & the gospel in the spirit world, they get the telestial kingdom. But they can’t repent there, they can’t earn it there. This is Mormon Doctrine. What you seem to know NOTHING about.
Who? those who once heard —Those who have a full and complete opportunity in this life, and who do not take it.
They? “they” will not have a second chance to gain salvation by their belated acceptance of the truth.
Repent? they will go to a terrestrial kingdom because they “received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.”
Nothing is said about the billions of people who lived and never had the opportunity to hear of Christ, listen to Christ, or have had the Gospel Preached to them.
Grindael, once again mistakenly tries to desperately prove and fails miserably.
Janet.
Janet,
I’m wondering how you feel about the distinct
possibility of being a plural wife in the after-
life? Should you die tomarrow (God forbid),your
husband could marry again in the Temple, this
would create a situation for you to share your
husband. Also, if your husband refuses to be
married to a second wife, after clearly
understanding the doctrine, in the next life,
then you might be taken from him and given to
another man. Any thoughts on this?
Benjamin F. Johnson (1818-1905)
I took his arm and he led the way into a by-place in the edge of the woods surrounded by tall brush and trees. Here, as we sat down upon a log he began to tell me that the Lord had revealed to him that plural or patriarchal marriage was according to His law; and that the Lord had not only revealed it to him but had commanded him to obey it; that he was required to take other wives; and that he wanted my Sister Almira for one of them, and wished me to see and talk to her upon the subject. If a thunderbolt had fallen at my feet I could hardly have been more shocked or amazed.
At the meeting he read the parable of the Talents, and showed plainly that to him that hath shall be given more, and from him that had but one should be taken that he seemed to have, and given to him who had ten. This, so far as I could understand, might relate to families, but to me there was a horror in the idea of speaking to my sister upon such a subject, the thought of which made me sick.
What? tell me that the Lord had revealed to him that plural or patriarchal marriage was according to His law; and that the Lord had not only revealed it to him but had commanded him to obey it; that he was required to take other wives.
Accusation: It is about POLYGAMY and it was taught that if a man does not have more than one wife, the one he has will be taken from him.
Chuckle, Plural Marriage or patriarchal marriage. A commandment, patriarchal marriage was according to His law; and that the Lord had not only revealed it to him but had commanded him to obey it; that he was required to take other wives.
You fail to disclose that not all members were asked to live the Patriarchal Marriage, in doing so you use a blanket assumption that those who had only one wife would lose that one wife, but in actuality it was those who were commanded to live the law. Twist and turn, turn and twist, nothing but your out of context shouting that is quietly shown to be false.
Janet wrote:
A quick question, Janet. Wouldn’t the very fact of having a “wife in the resurrection” indicate that the couple had been sealed for time and eternity? It is my understanding that according to Mormonism, earthly marriages are not in force beyond death; so a man legally married but not eternally married would not have any wife in the resurrection to be taken away and given to another. Just wondering…
Good question, the LDS doctrine is very clear that all men and women will be resurrected. Even the sons of perdition, will receive their bodies of flesh and bone again. Only Satan and his follower will be for ever denied bodies.
“Resurrected beings have bodies of flesh and bones, tangible, corporeal bodies, bodies that occupy space, digest food, and have power, outwardly, to appear as mortal bodies do” (Mormon Doctrine, “Resurrection,” 637.)
Every person who has been born (and thus died) on Earth will be resurrected. It is a free gift to all and is not the result of good works or faith. (See the FAQ, “Saved by Works or Faith?”) Jesus Christ made the resurrection possible when he himself broke the bands of death:
“As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22.)
Janet.