An LDS man who wanted to convince me that the Bible validates the notion of multiple gods used Deuteronomy 32:8 as a proof text. In the RSV (the translation he wanted to use for this verse) it says:
“When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.”
The LDS man made three claims: that “sons of God” is the more accurate translation; that these sons-of-God are gods themselves; and that these sons-of-God/gods are part of a “heavenly council of gods” to the “Most High God.”
To see if the man had a reasonable argument, I first went back to the Book of Deuteronomy and studied it carefully. As it turns out, Deuteronomy has A LOT to say about other gods. The following is a presentation of what I found. PLEASE take the time to read these verses so you will know that my representations and conclusions are fully supported by the Biblical text.
(And keep in mind that Bible translators use the all-caps word “LORD” for the Hebrew word יְהוָה which means “The Existing One.” “YHWH,” “Yahweh,” or “Jehovah” are the English renderings of יְהוָה For this reason, I will substitute “Jehovah” for “LORD” below).
“…Thou shalt have none other gods before me…”
Deuteronomy teaches that:
1 – The LORD God (Jehovah elohim) is the god of the nation of Israel, but other peoples/nations have/worship other gods (Deut 5:6; Deut 29:25-26; Deut 32:12)
2 – The LORD God is adamant that His people not have anything to do with the other gods, nor try to worship Him in the same way as the other people worship their gods (Deut 5:6-8; Deut 6:14; Deut 7:3-5; Deut 8:19; Deut 11:16-17; Deut 11:28; Deut 12:2; Deut 28:14-15; Deut 30:16; Deut 31:16-17)
3 – The god-worship done by the other nations includes “every abomination to the LORD” (one given example is the burning of their children) (Deut 12:31; Deut 20:18; Deut 29:18; Deut 31:18) and
4 – The LORD God is superior to all other “gods” (Deut 3:24; Deut 10:17)
“…These curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee…The LORD shall bring thee… unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone…”
Deuteronomy tells us more about the gods of the other nations. It goes on to show that:
5 – The other “gods” being worshiped are just wood and stone — graven images/the work of men’s hands (Deut 28:36; Deut 28:64; Deut 4:25, 27-28; Deut 29:16-18; Deut 12:3)
6 – The other “gods” being worshiped are the sun, moon, and ‘host of heaven’ (Deut 17:2-5; Deut 4:15-16,19) and
7 – The other “gods” being worshiped are demons! (Deut 32:16-17)
Perhaps some of the “gods” are not really gods, but are some real?
No.
“For the LORD shall judge his people… he shall say, ‘Where are their gods… let them rise up and help you, and be your protection! See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me…'” Deut 32:36-39
“Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.” Deut 4:35
“Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is none else.” Deut 4:39
Perhaps, according to Deuteronomy, Jehovah God is the only real god for our heaven and earth; but there are other real gods for other ‘heaven and earths’? Is this possible? No, for two reasons.
First, in all of Deuteronomy, and in fact, in all of the Bible, though the issue of “other gods” is brought up many, many, many times, NOT ONE TIME is any mention made of any other REAL god.
Second, should there be any confusion, the “I am the only God” verses in Deuteronomy have been restated and further clarified elsewhere in the Bible (eg., Isaiah 43:10, 44:6,24).
Mormon friend, it boils down to this. Given what is revealed about Jehovah — the LORD God, in the Bible — for you to claim or believe that there are other real gods anywhere (even in other universes, if they exist) you must believe that: 1 – Jehovah conceals the existence of other real gods, 2 – Jehovah is ignorant, or 3 – the Bible is not true (is not reliable/has been mistranslated). Since we were trying to use A BIBLE VERSE to prove the existence of other real gods in the first place, it is pointless to take the position that the Bible is not true/accurate. Next, throughout the Bible, not only does Jehovah repeatedly state that He is the only God, but He takes great care everywhere else in the Bible to say that the “other gods” are but idols. We cannot get around the fact that Jehovah God has clearly spoken on this issue. Lastly, could Jehovah be ignorant? Dare we assume Jehovah is not great enough to know of His peers? Only if we think we are greater than He is. “God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar” (Romans 3:4).
We must conclude that IF the 8th verse of the 32nd chapter of Deuteronomy is really talking about “gods,” then they are only so-called gods, wrongfully worshiped, to a person’s detriment.
And the Most High God? Yeah, that’s Jehovah.
“…I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD (Jehovah), the most high God (elyon el), the possessor of heaven and earth…” (Genesis 14:22)
“I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD (Jehovah) most high (elyon).” (Psalm 7:17)
“Know therefore this day, and lay it to your heart, that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.” Deut 4:39
“If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams… saying, Let us go after other gods (elohim)… that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD (Jehovah) your God (elohim)…” Deut 13:1-5
Excellent work setfree. My hat is off to you for your efforts here.
Here’s what Mormons don’t get (among a lot of other things) there is no greater triumph of Satan then to get people to turn away from God and follow other gods. What ignorance! And on top of it all, Mormons are in league with the devil not only because of their rejection of God for other gods, but because they go to great lengths to conceal what they believe. Even old venerated Mormon prophet Gordon B.H. wouldn’t own it. Not only that he concealed the SLC LDS view of the nature of God on national TV; the lying snake!
Satan really did over take Joseph Smith, but Smith was drawn to the dark side from the get go. We can see the battle being waged between spiritual forces in Smith’s life and he eventually surrendered himself to the lies and deception of the evil one.
Not only do Mormons reject God in favor of gods more amenable to their own desires, they pronounce that they too will become gods. Lucifer has found a home in the SLC LDS church.
I also recommend Rob Bowman’s thoughts on Deuteronomy 32:8-9.
Also, just to preempt the useless, semantic arguments of Mormon apologists: Christians don’t have a problem with the existence of other “real gods” if that simply refers to ontologically and functionally inferior and subordinate beings. The substance of our monotheism is that there is no one else like the Most High, no one else of the same species, no one else who can rightly be worshiped and prayed to someday by billions of other spirit children, no one else who has or will ever have the power and knowledge and self-existence of the Lord God Almighty.
If you want to take a bunch of ontologically and functionally inferior and subordinate beings and call them gods, then by all means, go for it. There are many elohims, but only one like Jehovah. Jehovah himself is the true Elohim. That is what we mean by there being only one true God. But that doesn’t substantively do one thing to demonstrate the substance of Mormon theology. It only calls traditional Christian monotheism by another set of terms (i.e. loosening up the ancient linguistic category of “gods” to include real heavenly, created, finite beings, etc.)
I recently read up on the supporting side for the council of gods from someone extremely qualified to discuss the matter. I recommend going over the links at thedivinecouncil.com.
The theologian behind it came to a similar conclusion to Martin’s–the gods of the coucil are very inferior to Yahweh. He goes so far as to suggest an adjusted definition for Elohim (I remember it being “divine beings”). He also argues against the LDS version of the council. Something about exalted human beings vs. divine beings only (take a guess at which side is the LDS one).
Furthermore, the gods were only givien authoritative control and were subject to worshipping God. There’s no trace of the gods being worshipped themselves.
If someone can post a refresher of the pre-mortal LDS view, we could compare it to the theory of the council of gods. Since the nations were “divided unto the number of the sons of God”, it’s clear that only 70 gods existed (the number of nations. Sorry for not providing the verse behind that quote, I don’t remember it). When we compare to the typical gods-supporting proof in Job, we see God mockingly ask if Job was among the sons of God when the world was created. I forget if the Mormon god had procreated everyone by then.
But that’s just if the coucil of gods concept is legitamately Jewish. Pardon my liberalness, but ancient, non-Jewish traditions do show up in the bible. In Psalms 74:13-14, we find a parallel to an ancient creationism story in which The creator-god had to fight and kill a hostile monster before he could create the world (source: Oxford Bible Commentary). Another trace of this story is found in Isaiah 51:9.
From what I’ve read, Ugaritic texts discuss the council of gods. The bible’s supposed version is different in a few aspects, though.
Really though, the idea of a council of gods doesn’t support deification at all, however much the Mormons or Eastern Orthodoxies wishes it to be (take note that the Orthodox don’t believe they will be deified into the gods of Mormonism, as an Eastern Orthodox apologist pointed out to me. Once again, the same words mean different things. So confusing.)
Rather, there’s no indication that the sons of God in the OT were once angels or humans or anything, unless you take the reference to Satan in Job 1:6 and Zechariah 3:1 to be the same fallen angel we know as the devil himself. One school of thought places 1 Chronicles 21:1 as the shift of Satan from a functionary of the council of gods to the Satan we know today. The evolution of Satan can be followed through 1 Kings 22:22 (the lying spirit), the Job and Zechariah verses (Satan literally means the adversary), and the final destination at 1 Chronicles 21:1. As noted by my Oxford Annotated Bible, Satan, in 1 Chron. 21:1 replaces “the anger of the Lord” from 2 Samuel 24:1.
But that’s just one perspective on the matter, albeit a scholarly-researched one.
Now before some Mormon comes up here and declares this this interpretation shows that Smith was inspired, let’s keep in mind his idea of the council stemmed from mistranslating the word Elohim. He also held that multiple gods were involved in the creative acts of the earth (as shown in the Pearl of Great Price). However, the Genesis account solely testifies to one creator. Some like to respond to this claim with the verse “Let us make man in our own image,” yet we see In the verses after that only God did the creating of man in His image. The supposed others/sons of God sat back and watched at the most.
Once again, his council is based on MIStranslation, leaving Mormon apologists to justify his view by referring to the actual possible interpretation, which isn’t based off of someone’s ignorance of Hebrew. When the LDS debate the council of gods idea with non-LDS who hold a biblical view of it, we again see how the LDS view doesn’t line up.
Of course, this debate rarely occurs because the interpretation itself is obscure and scares off those who fear the council idea means polytheism. It doesn’t, for the reasons stated earlier, which is another indication of why the council doesn’t support Mormon deification: Mormon deification is polytheistic; however, it’s mostly henotheistic in nature (we worship our God, not our God’s “God”, whom our God glorifies and worships (lest He lose Godhood, correct?) therefore henotheism. Or is that a poor conclusion?).
Hay JayK, Aaron and setfree, you guys have done a great job here especially with your references. I don’t want to brag but I have one that I think really puts the matter to rest.
In the movie Ben Hur, Ben has gotten released from the Roman gallies where he has spent years rowing this monster battle ship. Through a series of circumstances, he saves the general during battle, becomes a race track driver in the colosseum in Rome and after much success makes his way back to Palestine. On the way he ends up in the tent of this Arab sheik who loved horses and wanted to hear of Ben’s exploits. Anyway the Arab is talking about the Jewish religion and he says to Ben, “One God I can understand, but one wife?”
So this pretty much proves that the Jews were monotheistic and monogamous.
End of discussion!
I did a search of the entire Bible, and I didn’t find the word “ontology” or “ontological” anywhere in the Bible. It seems, if you are drawing from Deut 32:8-9, the “ontological and functional” difference is found between Elyon in verse 8, and the sons of El and Yahweh in verse 9. After all, Elyon assigns Israel to Yahweh.
Or, I guess, we could notice that Jacob notes that the gods (plural) appeared (plural) to him at el-Beth-el. He doesn’t seem to differentiate a difference in existence or nature between these divine beings.
Or Ps 82, Elohim stands among the Elohim. Now granted he said they would die like men, but, (and stop me if you have heard this one before) didn’t Jesus die like men as well?
That the gods of the OT are functionally inferior or submissive, I don’t believe is in question. They are ordered to do things, just like, oh I don’t know, Jesus. Jesus submits to god. He is to the right hand of God, meaning God is superior to Jesus, or his position to the right of God would not be significant. He himself describes in John 10 that his title as son of God is inferior to that of God, as used in Ps 82.
The interesting thing is the gentle correction Aaron attempts to provide to the erroneous presentation about the existence of real “gods” in the OT by Setfree by trying to denote they are not like the supreme god. But why use the term “god” (EL), which is widely known to have been the name of the Canaanite head god, and, equally, EL is believed to have its root in “power, fear”. So when the sons of El are assigned the nations of the world for their watch, and in Ps97 and elsewhere are commanded to worship Yahweh, do we really think these were in fact powerless beings with an understood non-existence aside from Yahweh? That would take ignoring 100 years of scholarship which notes Hebrews were in fact originally a polytheistic or henotheistic society. Subordinate, yes. Functionally different, yes. But gods, not empowered angels.
Vook,
Jehovah can’t die unless he becomes a human. The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us.
And yes, the Jews had a carnal tendency to idolatry/polytheism. It was sinful. They wanted Yahweh to have a sexually-oriented consort/wife. Similarly, Mormonism does. They doubted that Jehovah was the true Most High. Similarly, Mormonism allows for infinite generations of Most Higher Highs than the “Most (Relatively) High” Jehovah.
Mormonism wants everyone to celebrate and embrace many of the aspects of Canaanite theology that Jehovah commanded Israel to permanently shun. While the Holy Spirit wants people to be spiritually restored out of such idolatry, Mormonism wants people to apostatize right back into it. Mormonism is the 21st century reinvention of Canaanite idolatry, kicked up a notch. The irony here is that Mormonism is essentially rejecting the Old Testament progressive revelation through prophets.
It has already been explained that the substance of Christian monotheism doesn’t necessarily preclude that such gods have power and existence. They just don’t have the capacity, power, knowledge, or species of Yahweh. They don’t become Almighty Holy of Holies Most High Alpha and Omega Eternal Father Gods properly worshiped and prayed to by billions of their own spirit children, managing the problem of evil, sending saviors to other planets, impregnating mortals like Mary to conceive messiahs, boasting in their infinite glory and majesty, and punishing individuals who do not pursue a passionate relationship with them of unadulterated worship.
Since this has already been explained to you (here and on another thread), I will assume from this point forward that any attempts to (legitimately or illegitimately) ascribe power and existence to other gods, as though it disproves traditional Christian monotheism, is an intentional red herring.
Take care!
Aaron
PS Read Rob Bowman’s aforementioned writing on Deuteronomy 32.
Aaron,
As falcon would say, you hit the nail on the head.
Alongside Canaanite theology, it seems like Vook is trying to encourage Arianism:
“He is to the right hand of God, meaning God is superior to Jesus, or his position to the right of God would not be significant. He himself describes in John 10 that his title as son of God is inferior to that of God, as used in Ps 82.”
Arianism fits in well with Mormon theology with Vook’s statement in mind. The belief that God created Jesus (who was once uncreated), check; the idea that Jesus is inferior to God, check; a comparison statement that defines Arianism: “The Arian concept of Christ is that the Son of God did not always exist, but was created by—and is therefore distinct from and inferior to—God the Father” (Wikipedia entry, cited from a scholarly book), match.
Heresy as an argument..?
And where does Jesus say that his title as Son of God is as inferior as the elohim’s title in Psalm 82? Do we need a refresher course from John 8:58? Or do you think “I am” is inferior to Yahweh?
Vook, I hope you’re not intending to reinstate Arianism. And I definitely hope you’re not trying to justify polytheism/henotheism either.
But if I were to look at your arguments, my hopes would fail me.
“Heresy as an argument..?” bingo, i believe
It IS rather curious that someone who is trying to DEFEND MORMONISM does so NOT BY using a verse that supports Mormonology, but rather by trying to use a verse to REJECT YHWH as the only REAL GOD.
My question is: is there anything else that Mormonism and its god are really trying to do?
Vook, it appears that I have not expressed myself as well as I might have. When I wrote that people were worshiping demons, I in no way meant that these were non-existent beings. But, I strongly submit to you that in comparison with the God-ness (if you will) of YHWH, they are. I don’t worry that He would, for example, lose the battle should EVERY other “god” decide to gang-up and fight Him.
Gotta question for you Vook. Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?
This seems to only work if one redefines “created” here to “begotten”, since in Mormonism all persons have been eternally co-existent. Also, Mormonism denies that the Father is ontologically superior to Jesus, which was the claim of Arianism. Rather, Mormonism says all persons are ontological equals (they all have the same species and are merely at different stages of development).
“…in Mormonism all persons have been eternally co-existent”
Did I get lost by thinking, in Mormonism, that god and his wife procreated Jesus and Jesus eventually attained exaltation in heaven?
The mainstream LDS view is that pre-procreation, Jesus eternally existed in some manner, and his spirtual begetting was an event of gaining a spirit-body, not of fundamentally coming into existence. There are however some Mormons views that hold that intelligence is a non-personal substance, and that procreation is indeed an event where one’s identity and personality come into being, but this seems to be a minority view in my opinion. Sorry if that is confusing.
Not at all, thank you for clarifying. I think I read the same reasoning on FAIR. I’ll take it Jesus existed as a part of god in some way before he was..born in the spirit.
Jesus being inferior to God is a tad bit heretical though.
We don’t find Mormonism in the OT and we don’t find Mormonism in the NT. What we get from Mormonism is a lot of inferences based on misunderstanding of the Biblical language and Jewish customs.
Let’s be frank, Smith would get some ideas from where ever and fold them into his evolving religion. Now Mormons are stuck trying to find something, anything in the Scriptures to justify Smith’s creation. I’m glad I don’t have that job!
I’m kind of with the Catholics on this idea that Scripture and tradition give us a good picture of what the Jewish religion as well as the Christian were all about.
I appealed to tradition with a Lutheran pastor that was making a case that Biblical interpretation of verses regarding homosexuality might not be saying what more conservative folks where contending that it says. So I asked him, “What has been the tradition of the Church in these matters?”
So if we want to know if Jews worshiped a god who was a man and and became a god and who lives on a planet near Kolob all we need to do is ask an orthodox Jewish rabbi. We could do the same in regards to whether or not the Jews practiced rituals of Free Masonry in their temples.
Let’s face it, Mormons are stuck with a high bar that they can’t get over.
Set Free,
Nice Job. I always enjoy what you contribute here.
Aaron,
That was interesting how you mentioned that
Mormon doctrine is all to similar to ancient
Cananite beliefs.
Vook,
Is it your desire to one day be worshipped as an
Almighty God?
I read in LDS curriculim, and from LDS general
authorities, that you can one day become an
Almighty God. I asked Ralph this and he testified
it was so.I cited Rev.4:8 as a reference.
One day, if you are worthy, the multitudes of your
children will sing praises to you as they worship
at your feet. Will you testify to this?
To me this helps explain why Mormons see the Lord
God Jehovah as not very unique, as not the one
and only True Almighty Creator of all things.
Instead, He is just a common man who happens to
be at the top step of the ladder of progression
ahead of us. He is above us and there are Beings
above Him. This is not the overall portrait of
God we see in the Bible ( or Book of Mormon?)
OK, I understand that this blog is about the use of Deut 32:8 as proof of other gods, but there are many non-LDS Bible archaeologists, historians and scholars that agree that the ancient Hebrews and Israelites (who by the way were the ancestors of the Jews) were polytheistic or henotheistic and it was not until Moses that they became strict monotheists. I give as evidence this webpage – http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/henotheism.htm
It cites a number of authors on the subject from both Jewish and Trinitarian Christian background. For example –
(emphasis mine)
I have a book at home entitled “The Gifts of the Jews” by Thomas Cahill, where he states that the ancestors of the Jews in the OT were polytheists. This is what Wikipedia says about his writing this book ” In anticipation of writing The Gifts of the Jews, Cahill studied scripture at Union Theological Seminary in New York, and spent two years as a Visiting Scholar at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America, where he studied Hebrew and the Hebrew Bible”
I saw a TV show called “It Ain’t Necessary So” which discussed the polytheism of the ancient Hebrews. And the list goes on.
I know you all want to believe that there is only one supreme God discussed about in the Bible and that all other gods are either idols or not as powerful, but there is evidence which is being discussed and argued about in the Bible archaeology community that points to this Bible starting out as being written by a polytheistic group of people. Now since that doesn’t fit what you want to believe does not make it incorrect, nor does it make it correct, but you cannot ignore the evidence or blatantly refuse to accept the possibility it could be true and your belief is false.
The big question is what would happen to your religion/faith if these claims that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the other fore fathers of Judaism and Christianity in the OT were totally proven to be polytheists or henotheists? And that the Bible really was written by polytheists and was meant to be read and understood in that vein?
You can say what you want about the Bible being monotheistic and that the claims its basis was polytheistic is not true, but the argument in the scholarly circle is still raging and neither side has fully proven their case and that is something you need to acknowledge.
Ralph,
You’re driving real fast past the main point. The uniqueness of the Jews was that they were monotheistic. That’s what set them a part from their neighbors. What do you think the call of Abraham was all about. God called him and set him a part from his neighbors in both a geographic sense but also in a theological sense.
For example Ralph, right now you are a polytheist. You recognize the presence of many gods in fact you yourself believe you will become a god. Everyday, on this blog, God is calling you to separate yourself from your belief in many gods and come to him, the One, only and eternal God. Now if at some point you decide to heed God’s call and come to Him in faith and be saved, you will also be set apart. However future generations will claim that Ralph was a polytheist, and they would be right.
My guess Ralph is that even after your conversion there might be some lingering desire to return to Egypt. Sandra Tanner reports that she and Gerald carried their BoM around for two years after leaving the LDS church. Other Mormons especially life long Mormons, will report that it took several years to flush the Mormonism from their system. It took until after the Babylonian Captivity for the Jews to get the worship of false gods out of their system. They never had a problem with it after that.
Ralph, Mormonism like all pagan religions with false gods, have a powerful psychological hold on its adherents. This is not only an emotional trap but a spiritual trap. The latter is accompanied by a strong spirit of delusion. In one way or another, the exMormons who post here have testified to this.
I will pray that God delivers you from this and that in recognizing Him you will obtain the free gift of eternal life which He is offering you.
Falcon,
Did you read what I posted and the article I sent you too? They state that monotheism in Israel (and thus the Jews) was introduced after Moses, which was over 400 years after Abraham. Meaning that although God called Abraham out of Babylon, he and his descendents were still polytheists. Or better yet henotheists as they recognised their God as the Supreme God. You know – King of kings and God of gods.
As I also stated, I know there is another line of thought on this matter, that Abraham was strict montheist as you have stated.
Which side is true? I don’t know (although one of them does fit in with my beliefs so I would support that side more than the other). I am just pointing out that the ‘Jews were always monotheist and so is the Bible’ line is not necessarily true. There is an ongoing argument in Biblical archaeological, historical and scholastic circles about this point. That is my point. You can align with which ever side you want to, but you cannot brush aside the scholarship of the other side of the argument by just stating you disagree with it and it is not true because of what you believe.
But then again, that is what you charge us LDS with doing so I guess we can allow you to do that otherwise we’d be hypocrits 😛
Ralph, thanks for the input. I want to ask you to listen carefully, please, to what I’m about to say.
The Old Testament is largely about Israel continuing to turn to “other gods”. It is! So the fact that the people who are doing archeology and what not are seeing evidence of Israelite polytheism works to PROVE THE TRUTH OF THE BIBLE, not the other way around.
God REPEATEDLY asks, warns, punishes, and rerescues the Israelite nation because they REPEATEDLY go back into old habits of worshiping “other gods”.
Do you see how that makes sense? Falcon is right. It’s not that Israel didn’t keep doing that. It’s that they did. It is in keeping with what the Bible says!!!
But here’s the deal. You take your Deut 32:8-9 passage as a Mormon, and try to make it fit Joe’s Myth, and It JUST DOESN’T!
Why not? Because the “other gods” of Deut 32:8-9 are the “gods” of the other nations here on earth, the non-Israelite nations. How does this fit with Mormonology??? It DOESN’T!! Mormon “gods” don’t work together here on earth in Mormonology, right? Plus they’re all “perfect”, ain’t they? In which case, why does YHWH hate them???
Just some food for thought
Ralph, I think you’re shooting yourself in the foot by confusing local henotheism with cosmic henotheism. While we can agree that Israelites came out of local henotheism, where it was supposed the earth had an assortment of gods with geographic jurisdictions (Yahweh being only one among many), what we are saying is that the God of Israel was calling his people out of such myopic thinking. I would even agree that God did this progressively, with ever-increasing degrees of clarity. But in no way did he ever sanction the idea that Jehovah is a merely localized or tribal deity, certainly not in the Torah (the authorship of which, by the way, the 2009 Gospel Principles attributes to Moses).
Now, about the existence of other “gods”, I think there is room in Christian theology to permit the existence of gods, so long as these gods are inferior in capacity, species, and function to Yahweh. The Bible has two strands woven together:
1. “For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the Jehovah made the heavens.” (Psalm 96:5)
2. “For thou, Jehvoah, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.” (Psalm 97:9)
The task here of us as interpreters is to see these strands as interconnected and woven. The proper end result is to see the absolute supremacy of Jehovah above all gods, functionally and ontologically. And this can certainly be done by acknowledging a class of beings that are called gods, just so long as they are viewed as inferior and finite in capacity, function, power, knowledge, and species.
Two things are clear: The Israelites were repeatedly, carnally flirting polytheism and local henotheism, and the God of Israel made it progressively clear over time that his supremacy was not merely relative over the Israelites, but over absolutely everything and everyone. The substance of Christian monotheism today is the absolute ontological and functional supremacy of God over all other “gods”, be they imaginary or real finite beings. Simply pointing to another class of finite, inferior beings as being called gods doesn’t accomplish anything in terms of demonstrating Mormonism’s unique kind of polytheism.
As I said elsewhere, if you think there are perhaps countless generations of Most Higher Highs preceding our particular “Most (Relatively) High” God, and that you can become a big-G God someday such that you are properly worshiped and prayed to by billions of your own subjects, managing the problem of evil, sending saviors to other planets, impregnating mortals like Mary to conceive messiahs, boasting in your infinite glory and majesty, and punishing individuals who do not pursue a passionate relationship with you of unadulterated worship, then you are a gross idolater and blasphemer. You are going far beyond the idolatry of the Canaanites and Israelites, even upgrading it with unfathomable amounts of arrogance.
Take care,
Aaron
To build on Aaron’s remarks – this is yet another way in which your Biblical “support for Mormonism” passages fail to do what you wish.
Because they make Jehovah/Yahweh into the GREATEST OF ALL GODS – anywhere, ever. That there is no “god” greater than Him refutes the thinking that “Elohim” or Elohim’s dad, and so on and so forth, exist. Do you want to argue that Elohim and all the gods all the way back have diminished with time,
so that now, Jehovah reigns supreme above all his
superiors? Where will that get you.
Ralph, I’d like to hear your comment on the question: which came first, the chicken or the egg?
The idea of ontological differences between the real gods mentioned in the OT is a purely post-Biblical perspective. Yahweh is submissive to Elyon in Deut 32:8-9. I am curious if Aaron really is making an argument that Yahweh did not die in the person of Jesus? God with us, Emmanuel? But not Yahweh with us?
Actually, ‘gods’ do work together on this Earth in LDS doctrine, Setfree. Unless you know something about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in LDS doctrine which is not known to the LDS Church. Michael and other angels of the Lord worked with divine authority. We don’t know what role other divine beings play. We do believe in a council in heaven where there were many noble and great. Job talks repeatedly about the gather of the sons of god, which is the host of heaven, which are gods.
And though it is outside of the OT, 2 Peter 1:4 is very, very clear in noting we are made divine, share jointly as general partners with God his divinity. Paul’s use in Acts 17:25 of the term “genos” to describe humans as the offspring of god makes all people, regardless of regenerated status, members of the same species as God. True, it does not address the “ontological” relationship of man and god, but then again, it does not address the ontological relationship of man and god, but simply says we are the same species and family.
The history behind Deut 32 is the indisputable fact that El Elyon, in the Ugaritic texts, which are proto-Hebrew and share the Canaanite ethnicity of the Hebrews, El had 70 sons. Every non-theologically prejudiced analysis of this passage acknowledges this. To not do so is to ignore the elephant in the room, which we see is trying to be done here.
Instead, you read with a monotheistic bias the polytheistic oriented early Biblical texts and “construct the “historical myth” of the monotheistic God as the original historical experience of ancient Israel at Sinai and afterward.”(Smith, “The origins of Biblical Monotheism”, 2001, p. 194.)
Wow Ralph, you’re really stretching here. So we’re to believe that Bethel really means that there is a god named Beth, “God Beth”. El Shadai means “the God Shadai”, Melchizedek was a priest to the god Elyon, instead of the typical meaning ascribed to it as “God Most High?” Jesus is a priest in the order of Melchizedek and so also a worshiper of the god Elyon? What do we do with place names such as Beth’lehem, which has the meaning “house of bread” historically assigned to it? Should we now say that it means “the bread of the god Beth?” Does it not make sense that Beth’el would much more accurately mean “House of God” where Jehovah revealed himself to the patriarchs? You see Ralph, when you start out with a hatred for the God of the bible, which is the condition of the entire unregenerate world including you, then you approach the bible with a mind to make it mean what you believe, instead of what it means in its grammatical historical context. I don’t believe for one second that Jesus would interpret any of the verses that you cited in the way in which your God hating scholars interpreted them, nor would any of Jesus’ true followers. Do a NT word search of the word “equal”. You will find out that Jesus was ultimately crucified for claiming equality with God, which he never refuted. The apostles wrote of Jesus and worshiped Him as being God’s equal, and Jesus Himself declares his equality with God in the first several verses of John’s Revelation by saying He is the First and the Last, a title and state of being that can only be assigned to the One True God YHWH. Jesus is not a lesser included god. Jesus is a member of the Triune Godhead. Repent now.
While the Bible is clear that there is only one God and the Mormon and higher critics attempts to make the Jewish and Christian faith polytheistic are pathetic attempts to rewrite history and a rejection of the One and Only God – “Hear O’ Israel, the Lord Our God is One Lord” (Deuteronomy 6:4) Even IF the Scriptures did NOT say what they say, and affirmed a multiplicity of gods – Joseph Smith would still be a false prophet. Affirming what higher critics say about the Bible does not in any way prove Joseph Smith, the BOM, the Book of Abraham, the first vision, etc – all the huge holes and scandalous behavior are still there, undismayed by any argument of polytheism versus monotheism. Proving Joseph Smith to be a person worthy of trust to be followed, placing your eternal destiny in his hands, is an insurmountable task.
Ralph wrote
That’s a conflation of arguments. There are two journeys here; one of the people in the Bible, and the other of the Bible itself.
I don’t have a problem in seeing Abraham’s journey out of Ur as a journey out of polytheism. Same goes for the other patriarchs (Question for the poly-promoting scholars – were these characters true monotheists who expressed their monotheism by using a polytheistic vernacular, or were they true polytheists who got interrupted by God?).
Neither do I have a problem with the suggestion that the ancient Biblical texts were gathered from disparate sources and redacted into what we now recognize as the Bible. I’ll add that this has not been proved, and its certainly not the case in all Biblical texts.
But what if that is what happened? The worst that we could say is that the Jews edited and adapted these sources to fit their own overtly monotheistic agenda (eg Deutero-Isaiah).
So, if the Bible has been on a journey, the end-goal of that journey is the monotheistic worship of the One God, YHWH. Personally, I can see the Hand of God in this journey, which is why I can sincerely and honestly state that I believe the Bible is the Word of God.
What I cannot understand is why a deistic movement that trades in divinely inspired writings would try to return to Egypt. Take the Hand of God away from the formulation of the Bible, and what you get is not ONE TRUE CHURCH, but NO TRUE CHURCH.
All you get is a bunch of people speculating about stuff that’s never been revealed to them. If we get to this point, we’ve converted to humanism or deism, where God has no part to play in ANY religion.
Ralph,
I think all of the other Christian posters have answered your question so I’m not going to add anything to it but to echo the fact that the history of Israel is all about the One, only, eternal God’s dealings with his chosen people, the Jews. That’s the whole point. He chooses them and they turn away. Then they repent and a revival takes place and then the process repeats itself. The story is about their infidelity in turning to other “gods”. You can’t read the old testament and miss that.
The Jews even get carried away into captivity into Babylon. Read Daniel and then Nehemiah.
To even begin to believe what Mormons believe and see in the OT and NT tells us all we need to know about the level of deception and the delusion (Mormons) are under.
And what, the Mormon beliefs were hidden for what 6,000 years until Joseph Smith came along? We certainly don’t see Mormonism anywhere in the Bible. But in Joseph Smith what we see is a real loon. I’ve never been a Mormon but those who post here that have been testify to the strength of the delusion. This is especially so for those raised in the cult and who have repeated the Mormon mantras for years. But I’m certain of God’s call and the good news (other than the Good News) is that most people leave Mormonism. The unfortunate thing is that way too many of them, due to their experiences in Mormonism, reject God all together.
It’s pretty obvious here that “gods” are not “God”. Beyond our current discussion is the fact that if someone wants to misapply Scripture to mean something that it doesn’t, it’s not a real difficult thing to do. Cults and heretical sects exist because of this. Mix in a little “revelation” and bango, a false prophet is in business.
In Ephesians 6:12 Paul writes “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.”
It is my opinion that when Paul talks about “…spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places” he’s giving us a description of a spiritual struggle. Who are these “spiritual forces of wickedness”?
In Daniel 10:13-14 we get a view of this spiritual struggle in the heavenlies. The angel Gabriel says to Daniel: “…….do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words. But the princes of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.”
My guess is that these other “gods” are spiritually represented in the heavenly places by demonic forces. In fact some, talk about territorial spirits that hold sway over various geographic areas.
I’ve kind of left this topic alone for years but at one time had made a study of it. I suppose I could go down in the basement and pull out the books I have there and refresh my memory.
So the OT in particular refers to the “gods’ of the neighbors of the children of Israel. These “gods” have names. The question is, do these “gods” represent real spiritual entities that hover in the spiritual places in the heavenlies? And of course the next question might be, does the “god” of Mormonism hover over the geographic area in Idaho and Utah, for example, where Mormons have built a pagan stronghold dedicated to this “god”.
There is a “god” named Belial who shows up in the Bible. Here’s a tip about this god. In both the Hebrew and the Greek, “Belial” means “Worthless”.
Shoot!
“…Yahweh is submissive to Elyon in Deut 32:8-9.”
Again, Vook, you’re pushing misinformation. Yahweh IS ELYON.
“…Yahweh did not die in the person of Jesus? God with us, Emmanuel? But not Yahweh with us?”
Actually, I don’t know how it gets much clearer than it is.
Emmanuel means “God with us”
Jesus/Yeshua means “Yawheh becomes Salvation”
Is not, then, Jesus/Yeshua “God with us”? The ONE TRUE GOD of the OT, living in human flesh, to redeem us? Yep.
Two questions, Vook. One, a repeat from earlier. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Two, which God do you worship? Or are you free to worship many?
It’s so interesting to me that you are willing to base your eternal soul on a song Moses sang, but are seemingly unwilling to hear the LORD (Yahweh) God (elohim) Himself speak.
Mormonorg says Gen.14:19 is about “Heavenly Father”/”Elohim”. Why? Because the verse equates the term “most high God” (elyon el) with “possessor of heaven and earth”. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/g/52
Silly, since only 3 VERSES LATER we find out who “elyon el” is:
“And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD (Yawheh), the most high God (elyon el), the possessor of heaven and earth”
See that? No need to guess. Elyon el is Yawheh.
(nice try, Topical guide dudes and Vook)
For those who didn’t go out to Aaron’s suggested reading material, here is a conclusion quote:
“… the meaning of Deuteronomy 32:8-9 is as follows. When God divided the nations, he did so in such a way that the rebellious “sons of Elohim” who corrupted the human race and threatened to do so again would be distributed or scattered widely along with those nations and peoples. Following this preservative action, what happened next was the rise of a new nation, the people of Jacob (Israel), the great nation that YHWH promised he would make from Abram. This special people are the people of YHWH, the people he possesses for himself. The text is not saying that God authorized each of his faithful sons to rule over a different nation on earth, and YHWH’s assigned nation happened to be Jacob. Rather, the text is saying that while the surrounding nations continued to be dominated by the rebellious “sons of Elohim,” Jacob had the tremendous privilege of being YHWH’s own people. This interpretation is to be preferred, for the following reasons considered together:
(1) It is consistent with the wording of Deuteronomy 32:8-9, viewed in and of itself.
(2) It appears to be the actual meaning of the text in view of the evident connection with the narrative of Genesis 6-12
(3) It is consistent with the perspective of the rest of the book of Deuteronomy that YHWH is Elohim”
Mormonorg has 3 other verses from the OT that are supposed to be about Heavenly Father, as opposed to Jehovah. Guess what? Same exact thing happens.
Numbers 16:22 “And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?”
Here, Moses and Aaron are begging the “God of the spirits of all flesh” That’s why Mormonorg likes to use this verse for “Elohim”, because He is our “spirit father”.
All it takes is knowing that the all caps word “LORD” is used for the Hebrew word for Yahweh, and putting the verse back into context, to see who Moses and Aaron are talking to.
“And the LORD(Yahweh) spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, ‘Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. ‘ And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation? And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying…”
Again, one of the four OT verses that are supposed to support the idea of a “Heavenly Father”/”Elohim”, and it’s just about Yahweh/Jehovah again.
Numbers 27:16 is even quicker:
Where the Topical Guide only gives the partial verse “God of the spirits of all flesh”, simply reading the verse will demonstrate who this God is
“Let the LORD(Yahweh), the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation”
One more, for now
Vook would have us believe that the “host of heaven” are gods
here are a couple of verses from 2 Kings
“And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal.”
“And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.”
It’s interesting to me that those who worship the “host of heaven” are also hanging out in “groves” and “high places”, and serving Baal.
Now Baal is another god, another elohim, isn’t he? But check out the familiar story of Elijah:
1 Kings 18:24-39 (Elijah challenges the prophets of Baal) “And call ye on the name of your elohim, and I will call on the name of Jehovah: and elohim that answereth by fire, let him be elohim. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.
Nothing happens, so the prophets of Baal prepare a sacrifice, and beg Baal until noon to start it on fire. So they started to jump on the altar, cry, cut themselves etc.
Finally, they give up. Elijah prepares a sacrifice and then soaks his sacrifice, wood and altar with water. He calls on Jehovah/Yahweh,
“Hear me, O LORD (Yahweh) hear me, that this people may know that thou the LORD God (Yahweh elohim)”
and YHWH starts the sacrifice on fire. The end of the story?
Verse 39 “And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, Jehovah, he is elohim; Jehovah, he is elohim”
It’s not too hard to see that those who believed that the “host of heaven” were gods got their spiritual butts kicked that day, by YHWH the real god.
Do you worship the “host of heaven” Vook? I’d dare say that since you believe you are/will be one of them, that you do.
If we want we can take a trip over to Egypt and see who their “gods” were and how the plagues confronted them.
1. Bloody waters direct at Osiris the god of the Nile.
2. Plague of frogs against the frog goddess Hekt.
3. Lice directed at the earth god Seb.
4. Beetles/flies against Hatkok the wife of Osiris.
5. Cattle disease against Apis the sacred bull god.
6. Boils against Typhon.
7. Hail and fire against Shu god of atmosphere.
8. Locusts against Serapia god who protected Egypt against locusts.
9. Darkness against Ra the sun god.
10. Death of the firstborn against all gods.
Now are there actual spirits out there somewhere in the spiritual cosmos that are associated with these “gods”, I don’t know? However I do know who Joseph Smith claimed to be the Mormon god as represented on one of the facsimiles for the BoA. The Mormon god represented is naked and has his genitals hanging out. That’s who Joseph Smith said the Mormon god was.
I wouldn’t doubt it if there was some demon spirit out there who calls himself Mormon. Given the occult nature of the Mormon religion, I would guess that there’s all kinds of “gods” attaching themselves to the Mormon temples. They are very welcome there given the occult symbols that adorn at least some of the Mormon temples and the folk magic foundation of the Mormon religion.
Joseph Smith wasn’t averse to mixing anything into his religion including Free Masonry, folk magic and a fertility god who, given Smith’s behavior with women, would be quite pleased with him.
Now that we have you agreeing that the early Bible patriarchs could have been polytheists/henotheists and that doesn’t bother you, lets look at the LDS thoughts.
Adam and Eve knew Heavenly Father and Jesus, they walked and talked with them in the garden of Eden. They had the true, pure gospel/doctrine of God and His true religion/worship system for that time. This means they knew the purpose of this life and that they could become like their Father in Heaven. Thus they most likely knew there were other gods in existence but not to worship them – they already knew that Heavenly Father and Jesus were 2 separate beings.
As time went on this true, pure doctrine became corrupted and people began worshiping others of these gods. That is why Abraham was called out of polytheism as he still believed in and worshiped the one true God and none other, albeit he knew of their existence. While in Egypt the Israelites (not all) also became corrupted by the Egyptian worship system and worshiped others of these gods.
Moses gave a law from Heavenly Father to bring the Israelites back on track so it pushed a strict form of monotheism (or possibly unacknowledged henotheism) so there were no other gods acknowledged. But the 10 commandments do not exclude the existence of other gods, just that they can’t worship other gods. Which is why the Bible and Jewish religion claim monotheism.
That is how our LDS beliefs can fit into the OT.
Setfree,
That article I sent you to answers the question you have about the use of El and YHWH. It is only IN (not through) our modern scripture and revelation it is being strictly observed as Heavenly Father and Jesus respectively. The OT writers were not as strict in their application of those words. So you cannot apply that idea there.
setfree,
Though I agree with your conclusions, I think some of your arguments are less convincing than you may think.
The name “Jesus” was actually quite a common name in first century Israel. This is why James Cameron’s recent claim to have found the tomb of Jesus, son of Joseph and Mary is probably a case of mistaken identity. Josephus also writes about his negotiations with a Galilean insurgent called Jesus, but he’s not the same character as the Jesus of the Gospels.
As you suggest, the name does derive from the Hebrew root for “save”, so it would be apt to use it to signify a “savior”. An earlier form of the name is “Joshua” (from the Book), and a variation is “Hosea” (the Prophet). Another interesting derivation is “Hosanna” (literally, “save us!”, Matt 21:9 etc). (Query, was this a pun on the name “Jesus”? The Israelites loved puns).
In considering these pictures and idioms as a whole, I find it interesting that the Israelite meaning for “save us” extended beyond our modern meaning of “rescue us” to “lead us”, which is nicely illustrated in the crowd’s expectations in Matt 21, Mark 11, John 12, and in the kind of “savior” we see in Joshua.
So, the meaning of “Jesus” does carry a sense of a savior, perhaps a generic savior or divinely commissioned savior, and probably a different kind of savior than what we may expect from our current use of the word. He’s not just the “rescuer” plucking us from a rooftop in a flood, he is also the “rightful King and ruler”.
However, the term “Jesus”, on its own, may not necessarily be associated with God Himself, in an exclusive sense. The connections with “God our savior”, “God with us” and “God incarnate”, though abundant in scripture, are made elsewhere.
Here are three examples of the Children of Israel going after foreign, pagan “gods”. Now whether these gods have actual demonic representation in the spirit world, is anyone’s guess. I would tend to think that they probably do.
2 Kings 10:20-28
2 Kings 17:7-12
In the example in 2 Kings 21:3-6, we need to look at 2 Kings 21:6 because that gives us specific information about the activities that were taking place. It reads; “And he made his son pass through the fire, practiced witchcraft and used divination, and dealt with mediums and spiritists….” This verse pretty much sums up the foundation of Mormonism and its founder Joseph Smith. The dude was no wanna be when it came to the occult. He was up to his eye balls in divination with seer stones and the use of contacting spirits by the use of second sight vision.
Mormons are without excuse because they know that Smith blasphemed God by his teaching that Jesus and Satan were brothers. Now the pathetic thing about Mormons, is that they are so easily deceived that something as obviously Satanic as this is accepted. The fact that Mormons rationalize and defend this assault on God is beyond shameful. They will wilt under the gaze of the Lord on the day of judgment. There is no excuse that they can offer having been warned.
In 2 Kings 22:10-20 we see what it means to turn away from pagan gods and turn back to the One, eternal, never changing God. There needs to be a rejection of the Mormon god by Mormons, repentance and the acceptance of God.
Here we go again with the false understanding of the Garden of Eden story. In order for the LDS belief to be true, YHWH lied, and Satan told the truth when he assured Eve that she would not die, but know good from evil and be like God if she of the forbidden tree. According to LDS belief Adam and Eve had to eat of the fruit to 1) obtain bodies with blood so they could be capable of reproduction, and 2) have the knowledge of good and evil so they could use their free will to obey or disobey God’s commandments, prove their worthiness, and become gods themselves. Ultimately Satan is the savior in LDS theology, and YHWH is a liar who was trying to hide the truth from Adam and Eve.
Falcon raised the question of a demonic connection of Mormonism. I found these common themes in similarity of Mormons and Satanists in my research of The Satanic Bible. (Page number references are from that source).
1. “Mormo”: infernal name of Satanic deity; king of the ghouls; consort of Hecate. (Page 145)
2. Gods of their own universes (p. 17, 96). [LDS eternal progression/exaltation?]
3. The Roman god, Lucifer, was the “bearer of light” (p.136); [the angel Moroni?]
4. God is a man (p.30) – “pluck his beard”, “feet”, “sandals”; [LDS god is an exalted man]
5. Polytheistic: “the Gods” (throughout the book)
6. Redefines the word “sin” as a “mistake” (p.41); [LDS manuals in reference to the Fall]
7. Mocking of heaven: “pearly gates” (p.43); “strum harps for eternity” (p.47)
8. The prominence of magic; [LDS seer stones]
9. Satanic tactic of “the command to look” (p.111-112); [Joseph Smith utilized this tactic in his luring of women into plural marriage – Jupiter Talisman)
10. Rituals, ordinances and reenactments: [LDS temples]
11. Group rituals: [LDS temples]
12. Proxy work; [LDS baptism for the dead]
13. Working in darkness to receive light; [Joseph Smith’s use of the seer stone in writing the Book of Mormon]
14. Pentagram; [LDS Church History Museum; temple windowns; stain glass]
15. Fascination with Enoch; the language of Satan; [LDS fascination with him in the book of Moses and Doctrine and Covenants]
16. No eternal hell (p.33,55); [LDS three kingdoms]
I know…I know…just a coincidence, correct (LDS faithful)? If it were me I would be disturbed if anything that I believed and held as sacred had any similarity or commonality with the Satanists. Hey, what do you care, right? You’ve got a testimony! Gather in a pagan sacrifice circle with your fellow polytheists and lift up praise to your polytheistic false gods. I’m sure the Satanists would love to learn the LDS hymn “Praise to the Man” as you sing with joyful glee in honor of Joseph Smith.
Thank you liv4jc and Andy.
Mormonism needs to be exposed for what it is. It’s the disguise it wears to seduce the ignorant that must be pulled back.
We know what’s coming from the Mormon apologists. The first strategy is ignore the charges. The second denial. They don’t really believe any of this. Third, it’s all just a big misunderstanding. Fourth it’s LDS rationalization. And finally fifth, well the LDS church does a lot of good so……..And when all else fails we’ll get a bearing of the testimony or the charge that Mormons are being persecuted.
Mormonism is at it’s core a pagan religion that worships a false deity. Mormonism gets right-up in the face of God and defies Him. Mormonism tries to hide under a facade of clean living and false piety but anyone willing to scratch the surface even a little bit can see what this religion is all about.
Liv4jc,
Those words were not mine. If you read carefully I gave you the names of the people whose work it is. Included in those people were a Catholic scholar and two people who studied with Rabbis, one of these 2 people was a Jew (nb both religious and lineage) himself. Are these ‘God hating scholars’ as you called them?
As far as the word ‘equal’, don’t forget the Bible makes us ‘equal’ with Jesus when it comes to our inheritance from God.
When it comes to the garden of Eden, we have been through this many times. Satan did lie when he told Adam and Eve that they will not die. But even God agreed that Satan did not lie when he told Adam and Eve thth they will become like God knoowing good from evil. This is found in Genesis 3:22 “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil”
This means that we have a Godly attribute within us, gained through the fall, in our knowledge of good and evil.
Andy,
”I know…I know…just a coincidence
Yes it could be a coincidence – but we also know that Satan likes to mimic God’s work to confuse people and lead them away from Him. For evidence you are accusing the LDS church of this and we are accusing you of the same. So it may not be a coincidence but part of Satan’s plan to lead people away from God and His truth in the LDS church.
I was recently listening to this program on heresy and the pastor speaking said all heresy at it’s most basic level springs from sin. He was an Episcopal leader/minister and was referring the the bad theology or heresy coming into the Episcopal Church due to their embrace of sin. At first they just try to justify sin, and then they twist Scripture in order to justify sin, and then they begin to take on the incarnation, denying God come in the flesh – eventually sin leads to a multiplying of heresy where the Church becomes completely heretical – following after strange gods. I believe Joseph Smith lead his followers on just such journey – beginning with his sin of divination, next deception with the Book of Mormon, then bringing in polygamy due to his using his position of power for his sexual sin – progressing further and further from Christian orthodoxy, until finally his religion bears little (other than external things) resemblance to the Christian faith. False idols take people into heresy, no matter what those idols are. In the Scripture, we see false idols taking people into heresy. Today – Islam has idolized God’s sovereignty and absolute power to the point that nothing else matters, their is no mercy, forgiveness, rational thought, etc. Mormons have made man into an idol, where God is just an exalted man, along with idolizing Joseph Smith. Many false gods are spoken about in the Bible, and Mormonism teaches a false god who is just another one of these gods referred to in the Bible. Repent, and turn to the living and true God. Receive the mercy and forgiveness of Jesus – delivered to you in the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord and God.
Ralph,
The only other gods ever to exist are born within the imaginations of man’s mind. Your entire attempt to teach us about the creation story is flawed throughout. You reveal serious errors in philosophizing and coming to your conclusions. You present circular reasoning that is founded on faulty premises. Exegete the passage, Ralph, and you will find that nothing you said about Adam and Eve is corroborated by the biblical text. Once again, the issue breaks down to the authority of the Bible, and we already know it’s not authoritative for Mormons.
Praying for you…
15. Fascination with Enoch; the language of Satan; [LDS fascination with him in the book of Moses and Doctrine and Covenants]
ironically, Jeff Lindsay has a blog post on how Mr Stevenson (from FAIR) found a parallel to the Mormon doctrine of deification in 3 Enoch.
It was heralded as a Jewish text in Stevenson’s article (without saying it was a pseudepigrapha Jewish mysticism text, of course. But that’s more to the detriment of the people who fall for his scholarship).
Even one of the Mormons on Jeff’s blog thought Jeff’s post detracted from his blogsite, and it looks like we have another reason why it does.
Of course, we know that some people receive proper revelation outside Christianity if God finds favor in them in some way (check out the pseudepigrapha definition in the LDS KJV Bible Study help section).
Satanists can’t be All that bad, can they? 😉
Ralph, I don’t care what Rabbis or Catholics believe. Roman Catholics, like Mormons, do not believe in Sola Scrriptura, but base their false beliefs, like free will, the infallible magisterium, Maryolotry, transubstantiation of the elements of holy communion, the priest being the Alter Christos who calls down Christ and re-sacrifices him on the alter during communion, and purgatory, on tradition combined with their interpretation of the bible, which is guided by their tradition. Rabbis likewise do not understand the bible, and are largely ignorant of it because like Catholics and Mormons they rely on tradition, not the bible, to guide their beliefs. The Jewish people are still in God’s covenant, but the Rabbis are just like the Mormon Bishops when it comes to leading their people astray due to their lack of biblical knowledge. Foolishness caused by the blindness of sin and hatred for the One True God is the same no matter where we find it, Catholicism, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, or Mormonism all deny the true Jesus Christ. Repent now.
Martin,
thanks for the rebuke. As this is my post, there’s lots of material I had on my mind- wanted to get it out here to be looked at. the sad thing is that…
Ralph, you just don’t care. You have no idea that the Garden of Eden story is the Gospel message, the real one. I so want the blinders to fall off your eyes, friend. It’s so hard to see everyone keep preaching the truth to you, and see you ignore it to chase off on rabbit trails.
All. I finally watched the movie “Sherlock Holmes” this weekend. Have you seen it? Just a little bit a “Freemasonry” demonstrated there. And this is the group that Mormons have no problem associating themselves with. Just wanted to point that out.
Jackg,
You said ”you will find that nothing you said about Adam and Eve is corroborated by the biblical text”
Nothing?
Adam and Eve knew and spoke with Heavenly Father and Jesus – Genesis 1:26-30 (They spoke with them); Genesis 2:18-22 (God created the animals and Eve and BROUGHT them to Adam); Genesis 3:8-19 (Jesus/The LORD spoke with them in the Garden of Eden).
I would be quite surprised if God did not teach them the true gospel & doctrine and left them in ignorance. It all depends on what you want to believe that gospel & doctrine to be. So the only part I have put in there is the LDS gospel. So out of all I wrote about the Garden of Eden the only thing that I cannot corroborate is the teaching of the LDS gospel & doctrine. But that is a matter of opinion.
Liv4jc,
We have many of you Evs say that if we want to know what the Jews believe in and the history of their beliefs we should go to them (more specifically the Rabbis) and ask them. Well that’s basically what I have done. Now you say ” I don’t care what Rabbis or Catholics believe. … Rabbis likewise do not understand the bible, and are largely ignorant of it because like Catholics and Mormons they rely on tradition, not the bible, to guide their beliefs.”
It is because they rely on tradition that the Evs make this claim. The Evs say that the tradition for the Jewish faith has always been monotheism. Now I have shown that there are some Jews out there that dispute this claim. Who are we to believe about the Jewish faith? The Jews, the ‘other’ Jews I have found, or the Evangelical Christians like you who say ”I don’t care what Rabbis … believe” and then spout off what you think the Jews believe in? As I said above, the argument still rages about whether the Bible OT is polytheistic or monotheistic.
Ralph, Rabbinical interpretation of the scriptures is different from Christian interpretation of those same scriptures. This is why Rabbis don’t see the Messiah in Psalm 22, 110, and Isaiah 53 for example, but the Jewish apostles did. They don’t correctly teach the bible which is why when passages from the OT that point to Jesus are read to modern Jews they will often say, “We don’t want to hear from your Christian scriptures.” When the OT book which is being read to them is identified they are often amazed because they have never heard the passages before. The bible teaches monotheism and the Jews of Jesus’ day were monotheists. We know this from the writings of the early Jews who became Christians. Every writer of the NT was Jewish, except Luke, and the NT is overtly monotheistic, but reveals the Triune nature of the the One True God. Even your coveted BoM is written from the perspective of a man who lived in a culture saturated with Trinitarian Christian theology. It’s the only way to explain how Trinitarian concepts (although Joseph got them wrong and taught modalism) found their way into 1,2,3, Nephi which were supposedly written 600 years B.C. Read correctly, the bible is monotheistic. All other gods are non-gods and were shown to be such. Read Isaiah 40-45 for proof.
Ralph, even Jesus said there’s only one God. How do you get away with calling him a liar?
Ralph,
What does the biblical text say about the Fall as recorded in Genesis? What do you see being revealed? Do you see God’s grace at all? I’m just curious.
Peace…