This is the Christian message of how sinful man is graciously and mercifully reconciled to God. How well does this line up with the messages presented last weekend at the LDS General Conference?
“From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” 2 Corinthians 5:16-21
dltayman,
You really have to go out of your way to ignore much of what the bible teaches to say what you believe is true.
First off, the Bible tells us again as I said, that are hearts are deceitful and DESPERATELY WICKED, WHO CAN KNOW IT. So why if God says this, then he would give us an answer to the truth of His word, by speaking to our hearts?
Also the Bible never says pray to know if the truth of Gods word is true. It says, SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES. Why does the Bible say search, not pray? Then the Bible tells us satan can come in the form of an angel of light, so how do you know it's not Satan coming and telling you God sent him, (the angel) and guess what, His message is the same message JS gave.
Any one who gives even a very subtle attack on the Bible, saying things like, Did God really say, or the Bible is not accurate on this point etc is not from God. God said HE PUTS HIS WORD ABOVE HIS NAME, So why if He said this would He allow some one to be able to corrupt it? You guys say the Bible is not 100 percent trustworthy, theirfore you need modern prophets and "updated" scriptures, Like the BoM for example.
"So would a Saved person, in your belief, have the freedom to be a creator in the same way as our Father in Heaven?"
NO. That´s what God says in the Bible.
God is almighty – not the way your god is almighty, but truly almighty – so, He can do whatever He wants – but it is not His purpose, as stated in the Bible, to turn men into gods, as i´ve said a few times already.
Martin, great sermon on the parable of the talents – do you have a website of your own? Would it be okay to post it here, i´d like to see some more of your work!
That doesn´t address what i said in any way. You should work a spokesperson for the church – you sidetrack the issues in such a way that it is impossible to address the real problems being presented.
"the corrected and revised version is exactly what I believe."
Good for you! You might make it to apostleship one day!
You seriously said this????? Are you kidding me, You really believe that? You clearly do not understand Jesus do you. His Mission was do die, He was/is our passover lamb. If He was not betrayed then He would have never went to the Cross. But at the same time, you could argue that if Judas did not betray Him, He still would have went to the Cross and died.
Jesus gave Judas many chances to repent and even openly stated that Judas would betray Him and and said the Man that betrays me, it would have been better if he was never been born.
Then as to Judas hanging Himself, that was his choice, he did not need to do that, God/Jesus did not make him do that. So this simply shows how clueless you really are.
"Translators and press do get the talks for convenience, but they do not go through a review process. They are not correlated. the first time the rest of the General Authorities heard that talk was when we did. "
Ok, so, they send it without anyone in the church reviewing such an important document?
"I don't really think you want to go there. Didn't one of Jesus' personal, hand-picked Apostles betray him to death, and then kill himself?"
Christ qualified the men he chose through the Spirit, and He knew beforehand everything they would do – He is God. If they made mistakes it was publicly rebuked, nobody tried to quietly change words without any official public acknowledgement of error (as it is clear in the words of Paul concerning Peter).
We´re still waiting for Pres. Monson´s press release on the subject. He´s above good and evil though, it will never happen.
Also we are talking about a talk that was being done for months – that was approved and read from a Teleprompter. There´s no comparison whatsoever with the Apostles of old.
Dont forget that Jesus was a loaf of Bread, A chicken, and a wooden door. LoL
You can quote one verse that says, Be baptized and believe and you will be saved.
Here are some problems, If baptism is required, Then why does Paul tell the Jailer in order to be saved he must believe. Paul forgot to say, Be baptized and believe to be saved. Jesus never said, Be baptized to be saved.
What happens to people who believed in Jesus but died before being baptized? Dont say they will be proxy baptized, because first off, the bible does not teach that. The Bible says, After death comes judgment, not proxy baptism. Then Hitler killed over 6 million people, No way in the world can LDS acquire every name of every person who was killed, plus baptism them all by proxy.
–"It doesn´t matter- the passage was showing that resurrection is connected with the state of the soul which you lied about one post before. "–
What? Please point out and quote directly where I "lied about" "resurrection [being] connected with the state of the soul".
One's destination to a degree of glory is part of a separate principle, involving the Judgement.
The only principle I was addressing concerning the Resurrection in the term 'Universal Salvation' that was brought up is the principle of salvation from physical death, which is indeed universal, and passes on all with no regard to their final destination, or state of their soul. The worst of unrepentent rebellious sinners will get a resurrected body. The Exalted will get a resurrected body.
Again, you appear to be calling me a liar for not discussing a different principle than the specific one currently under discussion, which I was directly addressing in response to the above comments..
–""God doesn't create beings like Him out of nothing" "–
''"your powerless god doesn´t. The Biblical God Does!!!!!!! –"
Just to make it clear, now it appears that you're saying you believe God does indeed create beings like Himself out of nothing, when earlier you were blasting me for saying God can raise up beings to become like Him. Please pick a position and be consistent.
So you don't disagree with our belief that God COULD raise up mankind to be like Him, you just disagree with our belief that he wants to, and that it would be an expression of His love and complete selflessness to allow us to experience all that he does.
Why wouldn't he want us to enjoy the same things He does, if He does indeed have the power to do so?
""So would a Saved person, in your belief, have the freedom to be a creator in the same way as our Father in Heaven?"
NO. That´s what God says in the Bible. "–
So you are saying that God would indeed keep restrictions on Saved individual's potential, seeing as He could give them the full freedoms and power He enjoys, but chooses not to.
–"You seriously said this????? Are you kidding me, You really believe that? "–
I believe f_melo's logic implies that if Jesus would show poor judgement by calling an Apostle who didn't always express his message in the clearest of words, that it would be even poorer judgement to call someone as an apostle who would betray him, and then kill himself.
He said, "btw – If he isn´t capable of representing the church, then he shouldn´t be an apostle. Your jesus is doing a poor job at running your church. "
Was Judas a proper representative of the Church?
The only belief I expressed is that this logic is terribly flawed in understanding the role and calling of an Apostle, especially when it's taken into consideration that Paul and Peter had disagreements concerning public doctrinal and policy statements each of them made that eventually had to be reconciled in a council.
"You can quote one verse that says, Be baptized and believe and you will be saved. "
From the mouth of the Savior, Jesus Christ, yes. Do you not believe that scripture?
–"Here are some problems, If baptism is required, Then why does Paul tell the Jailer in order to be saved he must believe. Paul forgot to say, Be baptized and believe to be saved. "–
If one truly believes, they will obey and be baptized. It doesn't record Paul teaching about baptism, but clearly this was involved in the "speaking unto him the Word of the Lord", because the first thing he did upon hearing the message was to be Baptized. Probably needed a little bit more of an explanation that was better suited to a later setting. He believed, he listened, he obeyed the Lord's commandment.
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
-"The Bible says, After death comes judgment"-
Yes, but there is also scripture that makes clear that after death comes Resurrection THEN the judgement. The opportunity for proxy baptism comes before the judgement. I know of nowhere in the Bible where it states that the moment you die, you're at the Final Judgment. In fact, there is much to show that this is not at all what happens.
–" Then Hitler killed over 6 million people, No way in the world can LDS acquire every name of every person who was killed, plus baptism them all by proxy."–
It is a common teaching in the Church that a key activity the saints will be involved in during the Millennial Reign of Christ is participating in temple work for those who have not received it, and the Lord can and will make known all that we do not now have the power to know. 1000 years of round the clock dedicated proxy work with angelic and divine help can get a lot accomplished.
"What? Please point out and quote directly where I "lied about" "resurrection [being] connected with the state of the soul"."
Here:
"The concept of salvation from physical death doesn't haver anything to do with where the recipients of that go."
It does, and i´ve shown that in all my posts above, in different ways even.
"One's destination to a degree of glory is part of a separate principle, involving the Judgement. "
But according to Alma one could say the resurrection is somewhat a judgement, and as i previously stated the bodies of exalted beings will be different from the other – also, i forgot to mention, the bodies of exalted beings will have more glory than the others.
"Just to make it clear, now it appears that you're saying you believe God does indeed create beings like Himself out of nothing"
Let me make it clear, even though i´ve said this already many, many times: GOD DOES NOT CREATE BEINGS LIKE HIMSELF – THERE´S ONLY ONE GOD.
But, if He was to create, he would create them out of nothing, no problem. In the Bible God is clear, He is the only one.
I´m being consistent, you´re trying to "put words in my mouth".
-"If it was not cited then it was my work. Why do you judge me and assume I am lying? "-
Are you Bill McKeever? Because you quoted many, many paragraphs verbatim from this page here on mrm: http://mrm.org/saved-unto-damnation
Not just the quotations from LDS sources, but his own prose in the essay itself.
If you are Bill McKeever, I apologize.
Otherwise, you did not cite the source, you claimed you typed it all up by yourself from your personal copies of the books, and that it was all your work.
Either you are not being honest, or Bill McKeever stole all your hard work.
"you just disagree with our belief that he wants to, and that it would be an expression of His love and complete selflessness to allow us to experience all that he does. "
Yes, i disagree because God has also disagreed with that in the Bible.
"Why wouldn't he want us to enjoy the same things He does, if He does indeed have the power to do so?"
I can´t know that unless he said so in the Bible. All the Bible says is that we are His creation – and our eternal reward is going to be to live with Him eternally without pain, suffering, etc. Nobody really knows how it is going to be like in Heaven, but is something greater than anyone can imagine.
Also this concept of fulness of joy that can only be achieved by an exalted junction of spirit and body is an exclusive LDS claim – that doesn´t make any sense in Biblical Christianity.
"Yes. I already cited scripture that stated exactly this. "
All that scripture said was that those who fail to gain exaltation will be in a saved condition in the presence of god. In your theology nobody gains salvation – you either gain exaltation or you lose it to other glories. It´s like in the olympics, you don´t win a silver medal, you lose the gold medal.
'Baptism is the Covenant of Salvation.
The Endowment and Sealing Ordinances are associated with the Covenants of Exaltation. "
Ok, so i can live in the presence of god just by being baptized, without temple? I´m going to go around spreading that to mormons – they should stop paying tithing and wasting their time.
Oh, wait a second… baptism requires you to obey all of god´s commandments… and god commands people to go the temple. Hmmm… am i detecting doublespeak again? I think i am.
first you said, in response to my statement that "God doesn't create beings like Him out of nothing" :
1. your powerless god doesn´t. The Biblical God Does!!!!!!! "
And now you say:
2. "GOD DOES NOT CREATE BEINGS LIKE HIMSELF"
And then you say:
3. I´m being consistent, you´re trying to "put words in my mouth".
You see why one might not think so, when these are your own words?
"I believe f_melo's logic implies that if Jesus would show poor judgement by calling an Apostle who didn't always express his message in the clearest of words, that it would be even poorer judgement to call someone as an apostle who would betray him,"
See, i didn´t express myself clearly – i´m glad i´m not an apostle.
Rick is right – Judas had a purpose, your clumsy apostle don´t.
"All that scripture said was that those who fail to gain exaltation will be in a saved condition in the presence of god. "
Which exactly answers your question. They will be saved, in the presence of God, without exaltation. A condition you claim we don't teach.
–"In your theology nobody gains salvation – you either gain exaltation or you lose it to other glories. —
Yet you just recognized we believe in salvation in the Celestial Kingdom without exaltation as well.
"1. your powerless god doesn´t. The Biblical God Does!!!!!!! " "
I wasn´t talking about god creating other gods – i was talking about God in the entire context of your comments:
"God doesn't create being like Him out of nothing – he assists in raising Eternal Covenant Children (intelligences) up to His stature. We always existed, but in a far lower state of progression."
Specially the "we always existed" part.
The mormon doctrine of eternal progression is so similar to evolutionism… you can progress from being space dust to being a powerful god, due to the influence of the Force errr… priesthood… sorry, my mistake.
"Yet you just recognized we believe in salvation in the Celestial Kingdom without exaltation as well."
But that has nothing to do with the Christian view of Salvation, for goodness sake!
Let me repeat this, since it didn´t get through your skull yet:
"In your theology nobody gains salvation – you either gain exaltation or you lose it to other glories. It´s like in the olympics, you don´t win a silver medal, you lose the gold medal. "
In other words anyone who actually wants to be saved in your religion, will have to go through all the hoops(baptism, priesthood, endowments, eternal marriage, church callings, etc.), and if that person hasn´t done enough and fails to reach exaltation then that person will be "saved" in the celestial kingdom, in a lower glory than that of an exalted person.
(and how can that salvation be compared to the Christian salvation… it can´t, you can try to make them the same, but they couldn´t be further from each other.)
Which brings me to another question – those who are not "saved" in the celestial kingdom, and end up in the terrestrial kingdom, they will be able to receive visits from the exalted Jesus. How´s that any different from being "saved" in the celestial kingdom considering that one in the celestial kingdom will have his own planet and won´t actually live in the presence of god, but will be able to visit him(for family home evening, maybe?). Your theology has so many holes, it´s amazing your GA´s don´t close them.
That also brings me to another question – if your church runs on modern revelation how come no more chapters have been added to D&C? Is it because it would be too expensive to release new editions of it?
I'm not Bill and Bill is not me, I admitted some sayings or quote's were from him, I did not lie about that or cover anything up. I did not go through and state, this saying was from Bill this one is from me. I do, do my own research, I own and read the Books and I am not about to go back and break things down to every quote from Bill saying these are from Him or the rest is mine. The fact stands, does what I or Bill say, is it truthful or not. You honestly cannot say, I refuse to answer this question because you did not ask it, it was from someone else.
Give me chapter and verse about what Paul and Peter had disagreements on that needed to go before any court. I suspect it is merely a matter of you not understanding the Bible. But you said it so back it up.
The Council of Jerusalem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Jerusalem
See Galatians 2 combined with Acts 15.
They didn´t disagree on doctrine at all. try again!
"Was Judas a proper representative of the Church? "
He definitely was! Christ chose him, but he fell into temptation later and lost it all…
It's just as I thought, Your the one that has no clue and needs to read your bible better. These guys were not disagreeing with each other, they did not believe that gentiles could be saved, Their are Jews even to this day who do not believe gentiles can be saved, and were only going to be used as fire wood so to speak for hell.
Paul was sharing Christ with gentiles, the religious leaders did not believe that was possible and according to Gal, these guys tried putting Paul back under the law. Thats what LDS do, they put everyone back under the law. The Bible is clear, we are cursed if we try to return to the law, and the law is a hard cruel task master. You better go back and study the Bible and stop reading books from false prophets that have no clue to what Jesus was really all about.
–"These guys were not disagreeing with each other, they did not believe that gentiles could be saved"
"Paul was sharing Christ with gentiles, the religious leaders did not believe that was possible and according to Gal, these guys tried putting Paul back under the law."–
Sounds like a pretty big disagreement to me.
No disagreement, its a matter of you simply do not understand and do not want to believe. If you understand the Bible and the purpose on the Jewish nation this would not be a problem for you, but you dont understand and neither do any LDS. That why no LDS has been able or willing to answer my newest questions on the topic of the temples. But I will wait on answering this question until my questions on the temple are answered. I would not want to spoon feed any answers to people, since they will simply turn around and claim they believe the same thing as I do, when in fact that would not be true.
re; concerning the phrase, "celestial sex" . If it's your contention that this exact phrase
does'nt appear in " our writings and teachings" , then you would probably be correct.
However , the concept taught by this phrase has been a fundamental tenet of Mormon
doctrine for a long time. Heavenly Father and His wife(s) , future Mormon males and
their wife. As for your statement that sex between husband and wife being a gift from
God is'nt " perverted" , this is obviously true. The issue is teaching something about
God that is untrue. We are not to put confidence in teachers who promote false ideas.