This is the Christian message of how sinful man is graciously and mercifully reconciled to God. How well does this line up with the messages presented last weekend at the LDS General Conference?
“From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” 2 Corinthians 5:16-21
Interesting that mormons are always crying saying that other people misrepresent their beliefs – while forgetting they do the same.
While growing up in the church, i learned that the trinity was the god in heaven, then that god left heaven and became Jesus, then He did away with his resurrected body and stayed on earth as the Holy Ghost – that´s why the first response that crosses a mormon mind when you talk about the trinity is: "was Christ praying to Himself in the garden, or in the cross?" (if anyone wants to verify this, just talk to a missionary – most of them don´t have a clue about other religions).
Another misrepresentation of Biblical Christianity is that you can sin as much as you want because you are already saved. Last time i talked to a mormon about that, the response i got was: "so, why even bother going to church at all, you´re already saved"
Mormons can´t accept that salvation is free gift – they are so super-righteous they have to help God do His work.
Falcon said "So when we as Christians engage in this battle, we look behind the veil of Mormonism and see the ugly spirit that drives it and seduces those who call themselves Mormons. "
Amen!
"Why not pass out books of the prophets teachings?"
I absolutely agree with you. They should actually have "mormon doctrine" as their primary book of scriptures because it presents the doctrines of the restoration in a very organized manner. You don´t have to hunt for them, they are all plainly explained there.
Brigham Young must be rolling in his grave because of this dismissing of his doctrines and altering of church doctrine to please the world, to make the church look somewhat like the sectarian Christians.
fmelo and RickB
You both forget about the scripture we LDS use to show people bout praying about the truth of the BoM.
Moroni 10:3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
Note what I have put in bold. Where do we find this information? In the Bible, of course. Then what does it mean to ponder in your hearts? Well, from what I was taught and what I taught investigator on my mission is that one needs to read the BoM and compare it with the Bible and then decide for themselves first if it is the word of God. That then gives them knowledge. Then they need to pray to God to gain confirmation about this knowledge as well as to gain the wisdom (ie how to use it properly) for this knowledge.
So I guess that covers Acts 17:11 where one needs to search the scriptures (ie read and compare BoM and Bible) and praying to the one source of all truth for a confirmation about ones' thoughts.
Then about Solomon gaining wisdom from God and then turning away from Him – we see that many times in the LDS church of people gaining a testimony through the Holy Ghost and then later down the track leaving the church. It also happens in your churches too, people join and then later leave. So I agree with you RickB, wisdom does not mean one will stay in God's path even if the person gained it from God or the Holy Ghost.
RickB, we may not use the scripture James 3:15, but we do teach about the various influences on this earth – namely God, Satan and human. We also teach people how to recognise the promptings of the Spirit and how it can differ for everyone. But still, I agree with fmelo that it is more subjective than objective.
RickB,
Your question was about JS killing people and then where will he go in light of this. You were equating the possible killing of 2 men by JS to murder and asked what we now thought his final destination would be. That is why I answered with JS did not murder anyone. I answered your question.
Then I said the best you can get him on is lying which is now what you claim to have meant – so you agree with me there.
As far as your statement about me being dead – you can try, but if God doesn't want me dead at that time then I wont die. On the flip side, if He wants you dead then I would be the victorious one (talk about a modern day David vs Goliath for that fight). If He wants nether of us dead then neither of us would die.
Ralph, I was not meaning You or implying you, I meant You in a generic sense of, If any one or some one attacked me. Sorry about the confusion.
"Note what I have put in bold. Where do we find this information? In the Bible, of course."
Reference, please.
" Then what does it mean to ponder in your hearts? Well, from what I was taught and what I taught investigator on my mission is that one needs to read the BoM and compare it with the Bible and then decide for themselves first if it is the word of God"
You must have been a very different missionary. Usually what i was trained to do at the MTC and what i taught(and what i´ve seen missionaries doing in pretty much every area i´ve lived), is to invite a person to read a portion of the Book of Mormon and determine the truth of it through the feelings given by the Holy Ghost. I´ve never seen anyone actually taking the time to study the two side by side in their entirety. In case someone did see a contradiction, all missionaries will do is to bear their testimony, and say that the Bible isn´t fully trustworthy and because of that god called Joseph Smith to restore the plain and precious truths that were lost.
Question: Can a person be baptized without studying the entire Book of Mormon and comparing it to the Bible?
"So I guess that covers Acts 17:11 where one needs to search the scriptures (ie read and compare BoM and Bible) and praying to the one source of all truth for a confirmation about ones' thoughts. "
Question: What happens if the person doesn´t agree with the Book of Mormon or the restoration? Is the answer that person received truthful?
Nicely put.
Ralph says that Martin Luther taught that people "should sin every day on purpose to fully utilise the Atonement and rub it in the face of the Devil. These are what one of the most influential people in Protestant history taught and the people who followed him believed the same."
Martin Luther said that? Care to give a reference?
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
"Even today there are many out there that believe in this manner."
Those people live their beliefs according to their own understanding, not according to sound doctrine.
2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
I'm a massive fan of the Parables. To me, they too often get treated like morality stories, but they are richly theological (can we call them situational theology?).
The thing is, you can instantly grasp their message, and yet the more you dig into them, the more they yield. To borrow a phrase from Augustine (I think) they're shallow enough for a gnat to wade in and deep enough to drown an elephant.
They also stress the clarity, plainness and openness of Christ's teachings. Jesus took the scenarios that everyone in his day would recognize (a man working in a field, a woman who loses some jewelery) and used them to illuminate something truly profound. The irony was that the religious authorities didn't want to see it because they were so wrapped up with their own agenda (which was maintaining the Temple in Jerusalem). These features alone should prompt LDS to question the tenor of their movement's teachings.
Anyhow, the Parable of the Talents yields its own surprises. Consider the dialog between the Master and the unfaithful servant. What's going on there? I think that part of what Jesus is saying is that the wicked servant was wicked because he failed to see the Kingdom being modeled by his Master and the faithful servants. He was wrapped up in his own agenda; he made no effort to promote his master's interests; he was wicked and lazy and when he is confronted by the master, he gets all defensive and effectively tries to shift the blame. Perhaps, ultimately, he had no faith that the talent(s) he was given could be used to further his master's interests.
This was the subject of my last sermon, which I posted on YouTube here… http://www.youtube.com/user/mrmartinjacobs#p/a/u/…
Ralph, f_melo beat me to the punch, Show me chapter and verse to support what you said here,
Why is it the Bible never says, pray about the truth of the Bible? It says search the scriptures to know if these things are true, not pray about them. Jerm 17:11 says the heart is desperately wicked who can know it. We do not pray about truth because our hearts are deceitful.
The Bible tells us in John 20:31
If this is true, why do we need the BoM?
Now this has happened to me many times, when LDS tell me to pray about the BoM and I tell them I have, and I tell them the answer was, the BoM is false, the LDS ALWAYS put it back on me. I was not sincere, or I did not pray, or somehow it is my fault, and this is the case with everyone I have ever meet who said they prayed about the Book and came to the same conclusion.
F_melo said if a possible convert found a contradiction then they would bear their testimony. Thats so true, I sat in a service while they were broadcasting a GC, I then was approached by LDS after the message, they asked me what I thought, I said the prophet just contradicted the D and C, they said, what? How. I showed him from the D and C the problem, he did a double take and asked me where I got my D and C, It was a 1920 edition that I have had for almost 14 years now. They grilled me and my buddy hard, then after a hour or so, they kicked me out of the church.
If that statement did come from Luther, I can see the literary device he was using……hyperbole…….to make a point regarding the cleansing power of the blood of Christ and the victory over sin and the devil that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross provides for those who have received Him as Lord and Savior. It's really not a hard concept to grasp unless of course a person wants to deny the very basis upon which Christianity stands. A clear reading of the Book of Romans is a place to go if someone wants to understand the concepts of sin and death, spiritual rebirth and walking in the newness of life. In reference to grace a rhetorical question is asked, "Should we continue in sin that grace might abound?" The answer can't be more clear; "May it never be." And "How should we who have died to sin continue in it."
My experience with Mormons tells me that it is to their advantage to purposely not understand the points associated with imputed sin and imputed righteousness.
Mormons like to boast in their works especially their futile attempts at becoming gods through a process of godly living. Now this process of purification to godhood makes sense within their false religious system. In Christianity a person's works or purity in personal living habits come from a motivation of gratitude for what Christ did for us. Mormons are Pharisees in that they puff out their chests and boast on their works. Mormonism is an "all about me" religion. Look at me, look at what I've done and am doing, look how righteous and holy and worthy I am. I am god material. How foolish, stupid, self-centered and just plain wrong these Mormons are.
Lets just say for the sake of argument that Luther did say this, does it mean we must really do it? Really, must I live by that rule? I dont think so.
–"In Mormonism there are two levels of "salvation". The first level is a universal salvation that is available to everyone who has ever lived be they Adolf Hitler or Mother Theresa. The second level of Mormon salvation is where the worker bee program comes into play. It's these works that will allow a Mormon male to become a god, have his own planetary system to rule and enjoy endless, perpetual sex with one or more wives. "–
It is interesting that you falsely mis-characterize Mormon beliefs immediately after condemning certain Mormons who do that with your own. Your explanation of "two levels of salvation" is off base, and completely leaves off what is actually the equivalent to EV views of salvation, completely removing the possibility for dialogue on that particular subject. I outline the different LDS usages of the word below. The middle one is the one you didn't recognize.
Let me correct you.
1. "Universal Salvation" is a term used to mean salvation from physical death – meaning that all men will be resurrected, in accordance with the principle taught, among other places, 1 Corinthians 15:22, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." – this has nothing to do with one's standing before God, or their Eternal Destination. It is just a fact of a literal physical resurrection for all, prior to the Final Judgment.
2. Salvation proper in Mormon thought is the equivalent of Evangelical Heaven – living in the presence of God the Father. It is salvation from sin, pain, suffering, and separation from God. This, according to LDS doctrine, is given to those who acknowledge Jesus Christ as their Savior, and place their faith in him, repenting towards Christ, confessing that Jesus is Lord, and entering into Covenant with Him.
3. Exaltation is God's plan to not just save his children, but to lift them higher, to be able to participate in all the joy and freedom He experiences. It is, indeed, beyond the Evangelical concept of Salvation, and beyond the Mormon concept of Salvation in the Celestial Kingdom. As His children, there is no privilege or power He has that He does not want us to have, that we may use it for the benefit of others, and fully participate in his "work and glory", which is "to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man". It is Salvation from all restrictions of freedom. Preparation for exaltation involves striving for obedience to the Lord our King's commandments, entering into additional empowering covenants (including Eternal Marriage, which is a powerful symbol related to the principles in Ephesians 5). The Lord has not revealed details of the fulness of what this means, although those who are granted this state by our loving father will have 'eternal increase' and a 'perpetuation of the seed' – while there have been many who have voiced their thoughts on what the implications of this may mean, Revelation has not stated whether this is understood to be meant in a literal procreative means, or in the terms of adoption by which those terms are used in the New Testament and other scriptures (which is how I personally understand it).
It is the greatest expression of our Father's love and power. Not only is he powerful enough to raise us to be as He is, he also loves us enough to enable us to do so.
It is very interesting – Mormons seem to practice a kind of "bait and switch" when discussing salvation by grace through faith with Christians. First, they imply that they too agree with Scripture that Salvation is a free gift of God and cannot be earned, merited, or attained through any works. Christians can readily point to a number of Scriptures that support this central doctrine, so Mormons have to say "me too!" Then their arguments change – Read Galatians – you will find Mormonism described there. They are modern day Judaizers described in Galatians, enticing unsuspecting Christians into a works religion and into a faith that is no gospel at all! (Galatians 5:4) Mormons lead Christians away from God's grace given to us in the cross of Jesus – read through Galatians – this book will tell you all you need to know about Mormonism. They lead astray into a religion of works and ultimately to a religion that worships a false god – straying from the truth of Jesus on the cross for our sins, they end up performing endless works in a false religion worshiping a false god.
As a side note, if it turns out the 'perpetuation of the seed' is literally a result of being physically procreative in a manner paralleled to that in use in mortality? (not a concept I personally hold to) — Then I still don't see what's so blasphemous and dirty about it. I actually find the procreative act here on earth a beautiful act of love between one's spouse, and a gift of God. Something certainly so often misused and perverted, but in and of itself a beautiful expression of love.
Coupled with eternal perfected resurrected bodies, and no associations of pain and discomfort by anyone involved, and mingled with eternal love? I don't see what people would find offensive about it. I'm certainly not ashamed of my sexual relationship with my wife.
I admit 'celestial sex', a term you and others who share your approaches like to use, is a funny term, and great for derision. No Mormon has ever used it, though. It appears nowhere in our writings or teachings. It seems to have been perpetuated through Ed Decker's outlandish and horrifically inaccurate Mormon beliefs cartoon.
f-melo, . dltayman told you he "did'nt care" about other deities in heaven. Wow !You brought up an interesting point, i.e. his own Mother in heaven. The fact thata Mormon would'nt think about his/her mother in heaven is interesting.Consider:Church manuals counsel LDS to " Be thankful to your parents. Let them knowof your gratitude. " [ True To The Faith, p.79 ] . This is quite proper behavior .( We all know how vital it is , especially for our Moms, that they hear us saywe love and appreciate their part in our lives ). There is no difference withLDS and their Heavenly father : " You can express your gratitude to God byacknowleging His hand in all things, thanking Him for all that He gives you….."[ ibid ] . Tell your HF ( and Jesus) in prayer that you are grateful is indicativeof a proper relationship with them. Yet when it comes to their own Heavenlymother, LDS seem to be counseled by their prophet to refraim from tellingheir Heavenly mother of how much they love and appreciate her daily care,as prayer to Her is not advised. Sad.
In the Book of Acts 16:30-31 we have the Phillippian Jailer asking Paul and Silas, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" The answer he is given is, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved……." Now if someone where to ask a Mormon missionary the same question, what answer would the missionary give. Would he say, "Well we actually have two levels of salvation. One you'll get whether you become a Mormon or not. It's a lower level of heaven, but do I have a deal for you if you'd like to join the Platinum Club which will qualify you to try to become a god" So he explains, the best he can, the "after all you can do" concept.
Actually this is a little foggy but we do know that the recruit will have to fork-over 10% of his income, do all the "callings" offered him, live the word of wisdom, go to the temple and do lots of works and………..whatever. Now this "after all you can do" concept is a rather strange one in the works-god achievement program. It's really an unknown, the how much. But get this, if the Mormon does all that he can do and he comes up short, the Mormon god covers the balance. So what if a Mormon is capable of doing 50% of the works needed to become a god and he only does 25%? Will the Mormon grace that the Mormon god provides cover the whole 75% or is the Mormon out of luck and have to settle for a lower level of Mormon heaven?
Actually if the "after all you can do" grace covers the entire short-fall, even the Mormon slacker males will become gods. So what's the motivation of doing more? Andy Watson had a Mormon tell him that he planned on doing the "work" in the next life. Smart guy I'd say.
So here we are; bottom line time. What do we know?
When comparing Mormonism to Biblical Christianity we find that:
1. Mormonism has a different god. In fact Mormonism has all kinds of gods. Could be millions, maybe even billions of these gods. But in our planetary system there is a god the father, a Jesus, a holy ghost and a holy spirit. There's even a heavenly mother or perhaps mothers since in order to get to the top rung of the Mormon god program, it's necessary to practice polygamy.
2. Mormonism has different scripture and while Mormonism gives a head nod to the Bible, the Bible is seen as a corrupt scripture. I would guess that's because Mormonism can't be found in the Bible. But here's the clincher, in Mormonism, revelation tops any scripture. This works in Mormonism's favor because the standards of the religion can be changed willy nillie at the whim of the Mormon prophet.
3. Mormonism has a different plan of salvation. It's a dual track program of a universal salvation for everyone and then the special Mormon salvation that the Mormon male is counting will lead him to becoming a god. Now this latter salvation has a concept of grace which leads us to…….
4. Mormonism has a different view of the grace/works paradigm. The god program grace has to be earned. It's not just given to the Mormon without some work being done to merit it.
So here's the part I find kind of funny. Mormons try to cover all of this up and pretend that they're just like the Baptist church down the street. They'll go to any length to deny what they believe. Even good old Gordon B. Hinkley when asked about the men becoming gods program denied it. This is all permissible in Mormonism because of course the unbelievers need milk before meat. So lie and deny.
"It is interesting that you falsely mis-characterize Mormon beliefs immediately after condemning certain Mormons who do that with your own."
You´re completely wrong – Falcon exposed your doctrine on salvation exactly how it is taught in the missionary discussion, sunday school, etc.
It usually goes like.."when Adam and Eve sinned, the consequence of that was physical death and spiritual death. Christ saves us all from physical death because of his resurrection, and it is for all people regardless if they accept the gospel or not."
" this has nothing to do with one's standing before God, or their Eternal Destination."
You are so deceitful! Of course it has, where are all those people going after resurrection??????? They have to be assigned to a kingdom of glory unless they have blasphemed the Holy Ghost and will be sent to outer darkness. Hitler could even go to the celestial kingdom if he repented and got the temple ordinances done for him.
Stop lying!
"is given to those who acknowledge Jesus Christ as their Savior, and place their faith in him, repenting towards Christ, confessing that Jesus is Lord, and entering into Covenant with Him. "
Only through the authority of the mormon church. You forgot to add that to your statement. Once again – deceitful statements like that is what gets me upset about people like you.
"Preparation for exaltation involves striving for obedience to the Lord our King's commandments, entering into additional empowering covenants"
See, your religion is a religion of works – you earn your exaltation. Enough with the doublespeak.
"It is Salvation from all restrictions of freedom."
What is that supposed to mean? Oh, i know your god is not almighty, he has to obey laws that are greater than him, otherwise he loses his honor.
"As a side note, if it turns out the 'perpetuation of the seed' is literally a result of being physically procreative in a manner paralleled to that in use in mortality? (not a concept I personally hold to) — Then I still don't see what's so blasphemous and dirty about it. I actually find the procreative act here on earth a beautiful act of love between one's spouse, and a gift of God. "
Yes, i can just picture god having sex, beautiful. Wow, what disturbed mind came up with that…
"I admit 'celestial sex', a term you and others who share your approaches like to use, is a funny term, and great for derision. No Mormon has ever used it, though"
Why not, isn´t that what you just said???????????????????? DIDN´T YOU JUST COMPARE GOD HAVING SEX WITH PERFECT MORTAL BODIES WITH YOU AND YOUR WIFE´S RELATIONSHIP?????
The mormon church is one of the most effective colleges of doublespeak there is.
"No Mormon has ever used it, though. It appears nowhere in our writings or teachings. It seems to have been perpetuated through Ed Decker's outlandish and horrifically inaccurate Mormon beliefs cartoon."
It doesn´t matter if mormons don´t use it – it´s still implied(and perfectly clear in your mind). Outlandish and horrifically inaccurate??????????? You just proved most of it was right on the money.
You don´t get tired of doublespeak do you?
I´m sick of that, i´m sick of that deceitful church. Only the true God is capable of turning a mind like yours from such blasphemies to the truth.
Funny thing Rick, is how quick he was to use Luther and also the Anglican church, but intentionally forgot all the absurdities his leaders taught!
Ralph, have you found men dressed like quakers living on the moon yet? What about the inhabitants of the sun? Found them yet?
Let us know when you do – and they have to be human and dressed like quakers, no green men allowed.
BTW, our only leader is Christ. Pastors have no "priesthood" authority over anyone – they are to feed the sheep with the word of God, and care for them. They don´t dictate doctrine or any of that.
Is anybody following the Mormon editing machine?
http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/stor…
I can´t believe this – they are editing Boyd Packer´s talk… what a shame.
They should add to their D&C that one of the functions of the spirit is to edit false words after the fact.
I guess their spirit was sleeping when Boyd Packer was giving his talk.
Let´s see if they will re-record the talk, as it happened with elder Poelman, in 1984.
What a pile of garbage.
"So here's the part I find kind of funny. Mormons try to cover all of this up and pretend that they're just like the Baptist church down the street. They'll go to any length to deny what they believe. Even good old Gordon B. Hinkley when asked about the men becoming gods program denied it. This is all permissible in Mormonism because of course the unbelievers need milk before meat. So lie and deny."
The ends justifies the means. Then mormons get upset because people call their church a cult, and they don´t know why…
I went to mormon.org and tried to ask about it to a mormon missionary clone, in the mormon chat.
Here´s the conversation(i kept the english errors):
Welcome to Mormon.org chat.
A representative will be with you shortly.
Agent [Bridgette] is ready to assist you.
Bridgette: Hello, my name is Bridgette. How may I help you?
Me: Hi, i have a question about General Conference
Bridgette: ok
Me: I´ve been reading a lot of stuff about Boyd Packers talk on general conference
Me: in this new story they say his talk is being edited
Me: http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/stor…
Bridgette: ok
Me: My question is, how can an apostle, annointed of god have his words altered
Me: didn´t he spoke with his priesthood authority?
Bridgette: well maybe it was something he only wanted said once
Me: that´s getting me very confused about the authority of your leaders…
Me: didn´t understand your answer
Me: can words of apostles of your church be changed like that?
Bridgette: If he changes his own words, it was for a reason
Bridgette: but I don't speak for him so I don't know
Me: yes, but that´s not the point
Me: how can i know if other words of your leaders have been changed in the past?
Bridgette: it doesn't matter, what matters is what they want us to know in the present
Me: I mean, if they did after millions of people watched it live – what guarantees me it didn´t happen in the past?
Me: Oh, yes, it does matter because the entire doctrine of church came to be in the past
Me: what stands today stands on what was built in the past
Bridgette: yes, but this church runs on modern revelation
Me: I get that – but that modern revelation stands on old revelation, if the old reveltion is wrong than the modern revelation doesn´t matter
Me: but i see you can´t answer my questions… so, is there a church representative who i could contact about those changes in Boyd Packer talk?
Bridgette: the old revelation wasn't wrong
Bridgette: I'm sorry, there is no one you can contact*
Bridgette: I advise you to pray about it
Me: how can i know… if an authority on your church has his words edited that were supposedly spoken through the holy ghost, how could i not suspect that could have happened in the past.
Me: Ok.
Me: I´ll pray god will help me find the right people who can actually give me some information.
Me: thank you anyways
Me: ye
Me: bye
The chat session has ended.
*there´s no-one i can contact, but guess how many people would be knocking on my door if i said i wanted to know more about the church. Sad.
–"You are so deceitful! Of course it has, where are all those people going after resurrection??????? "–
So quick to accuse.
The concept of salvation from physical death doesn't haver anything to do with where the recipients of that go. As you yourself pointed out, it can range from those who would end up in outer darkness, all the way up to Exaltation. The principle in and of itself is that everyone will be Resurrected through Christ's atonement. This principles has nothing to do with where that resurrected body will be, or the spiritual state of that individual. That is a completely different concept. I said nothing in my response to intimate otherwise. Your response didn't say anything different than what I said concerning this one principle.
–"Stop lying! "–
I'd just like to note that f_melo is accusing the actual member of the Church who has calmly and accurately personally replied to many angry and disrespectful posts here as a liar, when he hasn't yet been able to show in what way, at any time, that I've lied about anything.
–"is given to those who acknowledge Jesus Christ as their Savior, and place their faith in him, repenting towards Christ, confessing that Jesus is Lord, and entering into Covenant with Him. "
Only through the authority of the mormon church. You forgot to add that to your statement. Once again – deceitful statements like that is what gets me upset about people like you. —
It's not deceitful. I readily acknowledge that the Lord works through his authorized and delegated servants on earth. Just as an oath of citizenship must be done with an authorized government agent for it to be legally recognized, I believe the Lord works the same way with citizenship in the Kingdom of God.
–"Preparation for exaltation involves striving for obedience to the Lord our King's commandments, entering into additional empowering covenants"
See, your religion is a religion of works – you earn your exaltation. Enough with the doublespeak.–
I do believe that the Lord expects those who he will trust with all of his power and responsibility through Exaltation to show that they are trustworthy, and will actually choose to serve Him and obey Him. when it comes to exaltation and developing characteristics to prepare for it, yes, the Lord does expect obedience to Him, and to the commandments of His Kingdom. Again – this is part of Exaltation, which is above and beyond Salvation, or dwelling in the presence of God free from sin.
I'll say it again: We believe the Lord wants more than just to save us, He wants to give us everything He has, and lift us up to become just like Him.
I believe I've made the distinction between salvation and exaltation many times here already, and in posts you've responded to. The need for repetition makes me doubt you are truly reading the posts instead of looking for phrases to pounce on.
I'm trying to understand the big problem most Christians have with the concept of becoming like our heavenly Father.
In your view, f_melo, does God not have the power to give his children all the power He has and to make them like Him, or does he just choose not to do so? I can't think of a third option. I would very much like to hear your thoughts on this.
–""It is Salvation from all restrictions of freedom."
What is that supposed to mean? "—
Do you believe in the life to come there will be things that God will be able to do that Resurrected and Saved men will not be able to do?
If so, there is a degree of restriction of freedom. If there is something God can do that man cannot, there are restrictions.
We believe God has the power and desire to remove all those restrictions, and give man the full and same freedom He enjoys, in every manner. My understanding is that you do not believe that. Is this an accurate representation of your beliefs?
The problem is that many here keep trying to compare EV view of Salvation with the LDS doctrine of Exaltation. The two are not equivalent. Work and personal development is very much required for exaltation – which goes far beyond Salvation (dwelling clean from sins in the presence of God), which indeed only has the requirements (according to LDS) of Faith in Jesus Christ, repentence towards Christ, and entering into a Covenant relationship with Christ, which is done through the sign of Baptism. We believe the words of Christ "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Exaltation goes beyond salvation. Apples and Oranges are being compared, and then we're accused of being dishonest.
Or you could see the official statement the Church put out: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700072230/Morm…
"I'd just like to note that f_melo is accusing the actual member of the Church who has calmly and accurately personally replied to many angry and disrespectful posts here as a liar, when he hasn't yet been able to show in what way, at any time, that I've lied about anything. "
I have, but you won´t see.
"The concept of salvation from physical death doesn't haver anything to do with where the recipients of that go."
Alma 40:15
"15 Now, there are some that have understood that this state of happiness and this state of misery of the soul, before the resurrection, was a first resurrection. Yea, I admit it may be termed a resurrection, the raising of the spirit or the soul and their consignation to happiness or misery, according to the words which have been spoken."
Stop lying!
"I readily acknowledge that the Lord works through his authorized and delegated servants on earth."
You forgot to mention that on your post, that was what i was referring to.
"yes, the Lord does expect obedience to Him, and to the commandments of His Kingdom. Again – this is part of Exaltation, which is above and beyond Salvation, or dwelling in the presence of God free from sin. "
Doublespeak again! Can anyone be saved without going through the temple??????!!!!!
" The need for repetition makes me doubt you are truly reading the posts instead of looking for phrases to pounce on."
Yes, i´m reading them alright. The phrases i pounce on are the ones which exposes your true views. You don´t seem like you´ve ever understood biblical Christianity at all. You seem like someone who was born and raised in the mormon church.
"I'm trying to understand the big problem most Christians have with the concept of becoming like our heavenly Father. "
THE BIBLE DENIES IT! Got it now? Just in case you don´t remeber:
Isa 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."
You sound so cool, like nobody is seeing what you´re doing here…
"In your view, f_melo, does God not have the power to give his children all the power He has and to make them like Him, or does he just choose not to do so?"
Yes God is almighty, but the Bible is clear the nature of God is very different from men. He is an almighty Spirit(according to Jesus in John 4:24), and we, men, are His creation – major difference in nature.
It´s not His purpose, as He reveals it in the Bible, to change the nature of men to become like His. Eve though Paul says we are co-heirs with Christ, Paul is referring about the kingdom and that has nothing to do with the nature of men becoming the nature of God.
If you want, i´ll post as many scriptures as i can find stating categorically that God is ONE!
"Do you believe in the life to come there will be things that God will be able to do that Resurrected and Saved men will not be able to do?
If so, there is a degree of restriction of freedom."
What does it matter what saved men can or cannot do, Isn´t your goal to become exalted? Who cares about what happens to merely saved men?
Freedom is freedom – it doesn´t have restrictions. If it has then it is no longer freedom, or you have to specify what you are talking about – as you did in your reply.
"Is this an accurate representation of your beliefs?"
Can you possibly represent my beliefs by stating what i don´t believe?
God can do whatever He wants. According to the Bible God will resurrect us and we will be judged and given our reward. To the saved Paul says that no man knows how wonderful it is going to be, but nowhere in the Bible it says that man´s nature is going to be transformed into the nature of God in the sense of becoming gods. As for what we will do there in Heaven, who knows… the Bible doesn´t say it, and i won´t pretend that i know.
Actually the Bible talks about Angels praising God – maybe that´s what i´ll do – how could i ask for something better?
I did read that but i honestly don´t care. Boyd Packer, as i said in that conversation, is an anointed apostle possessing the full keys of his office, in good standing – The spirit should have guided him to not say stuff he wasn´t supposed to. That is not to say mormon leaders are not allowed to make mistakes, but to call that a mistake is preposterous. He had plenty of time to review his talk, (the translators and the press even get those talks prior to GC if i´m not mistaken – so it was approved)and judging from past statements, his talk was consistent with his opinions.
btw – If he isn´t capable of representing the church, then he shouldn´t be an apostle. Your jesus is doing a poor job at running your church.
The right thing to do would be for Pres. Monson to make a public statement acknowledging Boyd Packer´s poor choice of words(judging from the changes made), and apologizing to those he might have hurt. I´m not saying they should bow down to public opinion(as that obviously didn´t happen), but there´s nothing wrong in being frank and open about those kind of "mistakes" when they cross a line they shouldn´t.
It would show the members their leaders do make "mistakes", and they shouldn´t follow them as blindly as they actually do.
As to the "clarification" of what he actually meant to say… i´m not that stupid to buy that. You´re talking about Boyd K. Packer.
Boyd K. Packer said this, about being homosexual:
“Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone?”
I don´t know what people´s opinions about that issue are on this blog(i think we all know what the Bible says about it, though), but the reality is that God didn´t do that to anyone – The fall of Adam and Eve did, when they brought sin into the world, and everything went downhill from there until now.
That´s why mormons would ask a silly question like that – they deny the Biblical doctrine of original sin, and have an extremely poor understanding of the consequences of The Fall in the creation.
"Exaltation goes beyond salvation. Apples and Oranges are being compared"
Impressive!!!
Apples and oranges? Really? Are you going to keep insisting that a person that is saved according to mormon doctrine is a person that goes to the celestial kingdom to live with god even though that person hasn´t been exalted?
You have not answered this question once: Can a person be saved without going through the temple? Or, to put it in your terms – can a person be saved without entering a covenant relationship with Christ?
The answer: No! So, we are not talking about apples and oranges at all. Exaltation for mormons is what would be salvation for Christians – the highest final state possible. For Christians that is to be resurrected and be saved by grace and live in the presence of God forever. For mormons is the gift of becoming gods and being able to eternally procreate and act in the capacity of god for their own children eventually providing them with the same opportunities they themselves had.
See how simple it is without the doublespeak?
We've been down this road with Ralph here before.
It's a genuine quote. Luther, I think, was stressing the efficacy of grace, but that's moot.
Of course, Luther pales into insignificance compared to the paragon of virtue that is Joseph Smith.
(Sorry, I slipped into sarcasm there, in case you missed it)
RickB and fmelo,
You want references? I have given them in the past, but here are some quotes with references again for you. These are all from Martin Luther and I have bolded the parts I have told you about in case you miss them.
"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness"
"No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."
"Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to."
"The imputation of righteousness we need very much, because we are far from perfect. As long as we have this body, sin will dwell in our flesh. Then, too, we sometimes drive away the holy spirit; we fall into sin, like Peter, David, and other holy men. Nevertheless we may always take recourse to this fact, that our sins are covered, and that God will not lay them to our charge. Sin is not held against us for Christ's sake."
"your sin cannot cast you into hell"
"No sin can harm me"
http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/reformers.htm
en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Luther
http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/29874.Martin_Luth...
He believed very much in the ‘once saved – always saved’ theology which is why he preached this way.
I hope you don't subscribe to these teachings RickB as they are totally against the Bible's teachings as you have shown. But that did not stop many hundreds (may be thousands) of people believing in them and following them back then as well as today.
–"I have, but you won´t see. "–
Your position is that I can't even see that I'm lying?
–""The concept of salvation from physical death doesn't haver anything to do with where the recipients of that go."
Alma 40:15
Stop lying! "—-
Please read the words of the scripture you cited. Read the verses around it, too. The context of this message is clearly concerning the intermediate state of the spirit's being between physical death and the Resurrection. It's even stated right there int he verse you cited that what is being talked about is, " this state of happiness and this state of misery of the soul, before the resurrection" – this is not in regards to physical location, but the thoughts and feelings of the spirit before they are Resurrected. What is being addressed is a confusion among those who view the intermediate state as being the Resurrection. Alma notes he understands the confusion, but goes on to teach the principle of the state of between death and the resurrection with clarity.
As taught in the Missionary lessons, "Even though Christ conquered physical death, all people must die, for death is part of the process by which we are transformed from mortality to immortality. At death our spirits go to the spirit world. Death does not change our personality or our desires for good or evil. Those who chose to obey God in this life live in a state of happiness, peace, and rest from troubles and care. Those who chose not to obey in this life and did not repent live in a state of unhappiness. In the spirit world the gospel is preached to those who did not
obey the gospel or have the opportunity to hear it while on earth. We remain in the spirit
world until we are resurrected."
Those who are wilfully rebelled are miserable – it is not an outwardly inflicted punishment or a location, it is self-inflicted. Same with the state of eace – those who lived according to the light and knowledge they had – especially those who knew of Christ, and accepted Him with all their heart, giving their lives and sins over to Him will be at peace.
Again, for the upteenth time, I repeat:
The Concept of Salvation from Physical Death alone does not in and of itself have anything to do with one's Eternal Destination. It is simply the principle that all men will be Resurrected, and eventually be brought before God to be judged.
–"Doublespeak again! Can anyone be saved without going through the temple??????!!!!! "—
Yes. Baptism is the Covenant of Salvation.
The Temple represents the Celestial Kingdom itself, and the ordinances symbolize the ascent (or 'exaltation') therein.
–"THE BIBLE DENIES IT! Got it now? Just in case you don´t remeber:
Isa 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.""–
You must know, of course, that a distinctive aspect of LDS doctrine is that the essential nature of Man is co-eternal with God.
"Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." (D&C 93:29)/
God doesn't create being like Him out of nothing – he assists in raising Eternal Covenant Children (intelligences) up to His stature. We always existed, but in a far lower state of progression. Our Father's work and purpose is to raise us all up to the fullness of His potential. It is the ultimate sign of His love and power.
This is in contrast to those addressed in Isaiah who take an inanimate object, without consciousness (like wood, or stone), and claim to transform it into a living breathing god. While the Lord of Spirits has the power to embody eternal spirits in mortal clay, the idolators certainly did not.
So your position is in fact that God could raise us up to be like Him if he wanted, but just chooses not to. Correct?
–"Freedom is freedom – it doesn´t have restrictions. If it has then it is no longer freedom, or you have to specify what you are talking about – as you did in your reply. "–
So would a Saved person, in your belief, have the freedom to be a creator in the same way as our Father in Heaven? Or will they be restricted, and not able to do that?
–"Can you possibly represent my beliefs by stating what i don´t believe? "–
I stated, "We believe God has the power and desire to remove all those restrictions, and give man the full and same freedom He enjoys, in every manner. My understanding is that you do not believe that. "
So again, your statement is that God DOES have the POWER to remove all those restrictions, and give men the full and same freedom and power He enjoys, in every manner, but He does not DESIRE to do so.
Is that more accurate?
–" He had plenty of time to review his talk, (the translators and the press even get those talks prior to GC if i´m not mistaken – so it was approved)"–
Translators and press do get the talks for convenience, but they do not go through a review process. They are not correlated. the first time the rest of the General Authorities heard that talk was when we did.
-"btw – If he isn´t capable of representing the church, then he shouldn´t be an apostle. Your jesus is doing a poor job at running your church. "
I don't really think you want to go there. Didn't one of Jesus' personal, hand-picked Apostles betray him to death, and then kill himself? Your line of logic shows that this was a fault on Jesus' part, or that this is somehow better than choosing poorly worded construct in a sermon.
–"Boyd K. Packer said this, about being homosexual:
“Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone?” –"
Actually, what was said was this:
"Some suppose that they were preset and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn tendencies toward the impure and unnatural. Not so! Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone? Remember, He is our Father."
It was a rhetorical question, not a quest for an unanswered question.
The answer to the rhetorical question clearly being, "He wouldn't do that to anyone". – that is, give anyone a temptation that "was preset and cannot [be] overcome". This was clarified in the published version when the word tendencies was replaced with 'temptation'.
The clear message being that The Lord does not, in fact, preset anyone's bodies to be preset with temptations that cannot be overcome through His grace and mercy.
I do believe it was a result of the confusion that came from those elements as originaly presented and phrased that they were alter, to clarify. I admit – I did I double take when I first heard the original message, and thought, "that sounds off." – the corrected and revised version is exactly what I believe.
" 9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"
If a sincere seeker of Truth asks God in prayer for assistance in knowledge ("bread, fish, egg") to know if something claiming to be scripture is from him , would God truly stand aside, and let the evil substitute come in (stone, scorpion, serpent) without making the answer known?
I believe God is our loving heavenly Father, who has the power and desire to personally answer our prayers. And that one key role of the Holy Ghost was sent is, well, let's let Christ speak for himself: "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:" – and what are some of the ways he does that? Love, Joy, and Peace are in fact scriptural fruits of the Holy Ghost that can be manifest (see Galatians 5).
These can come as a witness to those who put forth an honest effort to study out (according tot heir own means and needs), and seek the Lord n humble prayer to confirm, and to know His will.
I asked, and I have diligently studied, and continued to ask. And because of my Father's love, I know that I never got a scorpion.
–"You said that we must be baptized in order to be saved, and LDS teach we must be baptized since it is a (WORK) We must do."–
We believe the words of Jesus Christ, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16)
–"My point is, if baptism is so vital to salvation, then why do the scriptures say, Jesus did not baptize? Of all the People that should baptize if it is required for salvation, it should be Jesus. "
–"Why would Paul say, I did not come or was not sent to baptize if it is required for salvation. Why would Paul say he only baptized 2-3 people if it is required. That was my point."–
You might be interested to know that our Apostles, when they go from stake to stake to regulate the Church, they aren't going to baptize. In fact, I'm pretty sure the Apostles only baptize on very rare occasions, if at all. When an area is first opened, local leaders are given keys and authority to do so. A soon is there is someone else to whom the authority can be delegated, this is done. LDS see no problem or contradiction, but rather the same pattern we follow today.
–"Are you going to keep insisting that a person that is saved according to mormon doctrine is a person that goes to the celestial kingdom to live with god even though that person hasn´t been exalted? –"
Yes. I already cited scripture that stated exactly this.
–"You have not answered this question once: Can a person be saved without going through the temple? –"
Yes.
"Or, to put it in your terms – can a person be saved without entering a covenant relationship with Christ? "–
Baptism is the Covenant of Salvation.
The Endowment and Sealing Ordinances are associated with the Covenants of Exaltation.
Keeping in mind that the term "Salvation" is often used as shorthand in Mormon discourses to mean all these combined: Salvation from Death, Salvation from sin dwelling in the presence of God, and Salvation from all restrictions in progression as one is lifted up in Exaltation by our Heavenly Father.
The latter certainly goes beyond the EV view of Salvation, of which the LDS equivalent is the second of the three.
Ralph, Show me where I have ever said I believe these sayings? I did say to you that even if he did teach this stuff, does the Bible teach it? I did say to you, even if he did teach this, does it make it true? Must I believe it since he taught it? No, I made it clear where I stand, so why do you act like I am teaching this or believing it?
PS, I am not a calvinst, I do not believe in OSAS, and I read the Bible, not follow doctrines of man, just for the record.
–"As to the "clarification" of what he actually meant to say… i´m not that stupid to buy that. You´re talking about Boyd K. Packer."–
Okay then. Lets compare with Packer's talk 10 years ago in the October 2000 General Conference on the same subject:
"When any unworthy desires press into your mind, fight them, resist them, control them (see James 4:6-8; 2 Ne. 9:39; Mosiah 3:19). The Apostle Paul taught, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it" (1 Cor. 10:13; see also D&C 62:1).
That may be a struggle from which you will not be free in this life. If you do not act on temptations, you need feel no guilt. They may be extremely difficult to resist. But that is better than to yield and bring disappointment and unhappiness to you and those who love you.
Some think that God created them with overpowering, unnatural desires, that they are trapped and not responsible (see James 1:13-15). That is not true. It cannot be true. Even if they were to accept it as true, they must remember that He can cure and He can heal (see Alma 7:10-13; 15:8"
It is the same thought expressed in the published version of the 2010 message.
"If a sincere seeker of Truth asks God in prayer for assistance in knowledge ("bread, fish, egg") "
That´s the worst interpretation of that scripture i´ve ever seen in my life.
"and what are some of the ways he does that? Love, Joy, and Peace are in fact scriptural fruits of the Holy Ghost that can be manifest (see Galatians 5). "
You´re wrong – the fruits of the Spirit are not the ways by which God answers anyone. Fruits are the consequences of the faith the person has – not a spiritual confirmation. First comes the seed, and, the seed being the true Biblical Gospel, if the ground is good, it will yield good fruits as Paul explained in Galatians 5.
Once again your understanding of the Bible is abysmal.
"These can come as a witness to those who put forth an honest effort"
Sorry, we are spiritually dead in our sins – dead man can put no effort into anything unless God raises that person from the spiritual death.
God does not answer anyone with subjective feelings – he answers us through His Word – the Bible. So if you want to know if something is true, check it against the Bible.
"Please read the words of the scripture you cited. Read the verses around it, too. The context of this message is clearly concerning the intermediate state of the spirit's being between physical death and the Resurrection."
It doesn´t matter – the passage was showing that resurrection is connected with the state of the soul which you lied about one post before.
"The Concept of Salvation from Physical Death alone does not in and of itself have anything to do with one's Eternal Destination."
It does because those people have to receive a resurrected body according to the degree of glory they´ll be assigned to – the exalted will have a different resurrected body from the other who will go to the lower kingdoms!
Stop lying!
"You must know, of course, that a distinctive aspect of LDS doctrine is that the essential nature of Man is co-eternal with God. "
Is that supposed to mean that when God says no God has been formed before, that we were already Gods then?
That´s blasphemy!
"God doesn't create being like Him out of nothing"
your powerless god doesn´t. The Biblical God Does!!!!!!!
John 1:1-3
"In the bbeginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
That includes matter, "intelligences", and everything else. Your god is a mere architect. Our God is almighty and created everything from nothing. Our God is a true God in the very sense of the word!
"So your position is in fact that God could raise us up to be like Him if he wanted, but just chooses not to. Correct?"
Yes. He´s almighty, and we are His creation. In the Bible he has made clear He is the ONLY God that there ever was, that there is, and He is the ONLY God forever. So, God categorically stated He is the ONLY one, He will turn no man to godhood.