Is free speech just for the rich?

MRM associate Randy Sweet and I decided to head to Provo—home of the LDS Church-owned BYU Cougar football team—to hand out our Brigham Young million dollar bill tracts before the game on Saturday, October 23. Wouldn’t you know it! For two of the three hours that we handed out the tracts, it poured cats and dogs! Randy and I decided to tough it out anyway and had the ability to distribute hundreds of tracts to many of the 50,000+ spectators.

A security guard forced us to move from the public sidewalk we were standing on near a main gate, saying that while it was a public sidewalk, the church had a permit to control the street and sidewalk on Cougar game days. Thus, we went down the street to a corner to hand out our tracts. Across the street was a Republican “Mike Lee for U.S. Senate” campaign bus along with about fifty hearty supporters, all of them waving signs and generating honks from the passing cars. Several ladies holding campaign signs were standing at corner, so we ended up getting into a quick conversation. Telling one lady with a stroller that I was new to the state and didn’t know very much about Utah politics, I could see her wheels spinning as she obviously viewed me as a potential voter, just ripe for the picking.

“Would you like to go over there and meet Mr. Lee?” she asked after I asked several questions about the senate candidate’s positions on the issues. I agreed, and so in a rain that became steadier, she introduced me to the 39-year-old lawyer—a man once serving as a clerk for Supreme Justice Samuel Alito—who owned a double digit lead heading into the Nov. 2 election. I ended up having an uninterrupted fifteen minutes with this very faithful Mormon and the son of former BYU president Rex Lee. Why, I even shook the hand of one of his beautiful daughters!

The candidate was very cordial and appeared happy to talk—anything to break the monotony of waving at passing cars, I’m sure. I began by asking him about abortion (he’s Pro-Life except in cases of rape/incest, life of mother, and detrimental health of the infant).  We dialogued on that topic for a few minutes before I asked him the question I really wanted answered: “Do you believe in free speech?”

It seems like such an easy one. It was a softball, placed gently on a tee for him to hit out of the ballpark. After all, show me a politician who would answer “no” and I’ll show you a loser in the next election! As expected, he replied, “Absolutely, I’m a constitutional lawyer, and I will fight for this right to the very end.” I brought up the recent debacle involving liberal political commentator Juan Williams and how he had publicly said some things on the air about Muslims that the NPR leadership didn’t like, resulting in his firing. (Interesting, FOX News hired Williams immediately after this, giving him a $2 million contract!) Mr. Lee had not been following the news (“I’ve been busy getting ready for the election,” he said), so I spent several minutes providing him details.

“Yes, they (NPR) shouldn’t have fired him,” he concluded. With this, I proceeded to explain the situation that is currently taking place in Manti, Utah.  To catch everyone up, the Mormon Church is attempting to purchase a public street that runs in front of the temple by offering the city approximately $110,000. The church has not shown any real dire need to own this street, though everyone knows that such a purchase will result in having anyone who disagrees with the church banned from the street. For two weeks in June every year, hundreds of Christians come to Manti to share their faith with the tens of thousands of pageant-goers at the Mormon Miracle Pageant. Most of the dialogues take place on this very street. Once the church gets the title deed, they can tell anyone—protestors, Christians, communists, Utah Ute fans—to “please remove yourself from our street.”

At first, Mr. Lee made it sound like he really didn’t know or even understand the situation. Then, after I explained some more, he became very hard-nosed. “As long as it’s done legally, anybody should be allowed to purchase anything he wants,” he explained. My response:  “But if quenching free speech is the main reason an organization wants to purchase a public street, would you still be in favor?” “Absolutely,” he responded.

If Christians wanted a political ally in this fight, Mr. Lee is not the man. Immediately I thought of the next question. “What would you say if the LDS Church decided to buy the four blocks immediately around its Salt Lake City temple and the conference center, with the main purpose to disallow free speech, especially during the two general conferences that take place each year?” After all, since many who are in opposition to Mormonism use these public sidewalks, perhaps a strategy would be to buy the streets and sidewalks (just as the church purchased an adjacent street in 2000 to create Main Street Plaza) in order to move the “protestors” and other undesirables away from the LDS buildings. His answer was predictable: “As long as it was legally done, I see no problem with that.”

I do, Mr. Lee. Free speech is not just for those who have lots of disposable assets and can purchase public streets in order to stifle opposing viewpoints.  If the LDS Church cannot show a real need to purchase a public street, allowing such a purchase is morally and ethically wrong. Putting a clamp on free speech by using such a maneuver is something that I might expect to happen in a Communist country, not America. Legality is not the issue.

Mr. Lee, with a double-digit lead according to the polls, you will win. As a freshman senator, I pray you will remember that you have been elected to serve the people of Utah as our representative to uphold the Constitution, including the First Amendment. Don’t allow your LDS rose-colored glasses to taint your decisions.

As we parted ways on Saturday, you promised that you would allow me to communicate with you through email and you would respond. You repeated my full name and said you wouldn’t forget our conversation. Please know that I will hold you to your promise.

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100 Responses to Is free speech just for the rich?

  1. Enki says:

    I stand corrected. I didn't know that anyone LDS did that.

  2. Mike says:

    I think I DO get it. There are already many places where LDS Missionaries can't proseletize. If Mormon Missionaries tried to set up a booth in the Walmart parking lot they would get kicked right out by security. And rightly so. It is private property. It wasn't always private property. I doubt that Walmart existed there forever. They might have bought the land from the government before paving that parking lot. But it is not a restriction of Free Speech if they don't let the Mormon's set up a booth full of Book of Mormons. And I doubt the Mormon church would say it was.

  3. falcon says:

    Let's face it, the LDS church is not real interested in anyone proselytizing Mormons. The biggest fear is someone leaving Mormonism. It is not validating to the Morg to have someone leave the flock. I listened to a Mormon who had called into the Shawn McCraney program just whineing on and on begging Shawn to come back to the church. It was almost like the guy was groveling. So the LDS church has to try and bring in new members while at the same time holding on to those they already have. It's becoming a difficult task on both counts.

  4. Violet says:

    Correct me if I am wrong but the eternal punishment for a mormon leaving the church is worse than a non-mormon or even a famous murderer. Guilt shame thing.

  5. Violet says:

    Every Christian generally believes Jesus Christ took our place on the Cross, was sinless and perfect and we are saved by faith, through grace, not by works than no man should boast. Everything is Him, the Way, the Truth and the Life. Its all the cross. I was referring to your previous comment: Enki: "What seems kind of weird to me is the need and desire to change the belief of the LDS people. I don't know if doing it near the temple grounds is good. It almost seems like some sort of badgering." My problem is my 'witness' threw the first punch out of nowhere, 'The Only True Church' (ie. mine must be a counterfeit or fake, or false.) We witness to Jesus only, not our church. I am not pro-Lutheran. My way or my church's way, Not. Its Jesus.

  6. f_melo says:

    "If Mormon Missionaries tried to set up a booth in the Walmart parking lot they would get kicked right out by security"

    Please, that has nothing to do with the topic – they can´t also proselytize in hospital parking lots, so what, nobody can – and those places aren´t prohibited due to restriction of freedom of speech – give me a break…

    "And rightly so. It is private property."

    Yes, and the POINT OF THE ARTICLE is discussing if freedom of speech is just for the RICH THAT CAN BUY PUBLIC STREETS and make them private so that they can restrict anyone that tries to show mormons how misled and manipulated they are – as it is shown in the video i posted TWICE.

    I think you haven´t read Jeff´s post YET… or you are just willfully ignoring it

  7. f_melo says:

    Many missionaries do that. One of my teachers in the MTC was one of those, he told us how he went to an Assembly of God church in Rio de Janeiro, and got in an argument with a preacher…

    There´s always a "bold" missionary that is willing to go the "extra" mile.

  8. f_melo says:

    Tell that to Mike… he still isn´t getting it…

  9. f_melo says:

    Yes, if you leave the mormon church after having received the priesthood and gone to the temple you will go to outer darkness where Satan will also be. I think some people would try to fit those in the Telestial Kingdom, but the ones who go there are those who rejected the "gospel" and murdered, raped and committed other heinous crimes…

  10. falcon says:

    It's all apart of the fear mongering that goes on inside cults. Once people lose their fear and can't be intimidated, the games over. Let's face it, who'd want to stay in Mormonism once they discover that Joseph Smith was not a prophet, that the BoM is not true, that the LDS church is not true, that the living prophet is an empty suit and that the "Jesus" Mormons recognize is not the Jesus of the Bible. That's a total wipe-out of all the points of Mormonism. At that point the only reason someone would stay is for economic of familial factors.

  11. enki says:

    F Melo,
    I don't think its quite accurate. Isn't there something about those having perfect knowledge and then having rejected it, and worked against the truth. Something about having knowledge like seeing the sun, and yet saying it doesn't exist. I am not sure anyone can say that.

  12. enki says:

    They have a different understanding of salvation, Jesus, the cross etc… apologetics is something in common. What else is in common, probably little else.

  13. enki says:

    Yes, it does appear to be a double standard. What patience it must take for bible literalists to deal with Mormons. I am sure this is not the first or the last double standard. I am learning however that a lot of people have double standards about many different things. I probably have ones I am not even aware of, none the less these must be dealt with effectively, and with great tact if you ever hope to touch anyone with another option or perspective.

  14. enki says:

    Rick, I hope it works for you.

  15. f_melo says:

    That´s kind of a confusing topic to tell you the truth – because what sends someone to outer darkness is to blaspheme the Holy Ghost.

    But read this, in D&C 76:35-37

    "Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels— And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;"

    We know in mormon theology the second death means to be eternally separated from God. Yet this verse equates that with the place where Satan will be, deserved by your denying of the Holy Spirit after receiving it…

    Now read this – D&C 132:27

    "The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord."

    So, how does one actually get to outer darkness to be with the Devil? No idea…

    But what you said is true as well – "Something about having knowledge like seeing the sun, and yet saying it doesn't exist"

    That´s the explanation i´ve heard in church that to deny the Holy Ghost means to know Christ by perfect knowledge and no longer by faith(that means a person sees Christ and therefore don´t have to believe in Him by faith anymore). If after that someone denies him, or rejects his church then that person has denied the Holy Ghost and is going to be sent to outer darkness.

    So, those are the 3 versions of it – if a mormon that actually knows this stuff would be so kind to clarify it for us i would appreciate.

  16. Violet says:

    Bible literalists are the ones with patience. Where does mormon tithing go? They don't have to tell anyone where any of the money goes? What about the non-mormon parent whose children are married in the temple and have to wait in the lobby? What about the aunties and uncles who fly hundreds of miles to sit in the lobby while their niece or nephews get married? What about the stories of how much harder mormons work, pray, and we smile and are supportive? What about the children who are disowned because they have turned to non-mormonism? We smile and are agreeable. Yes, Joseph was entitled to many wives. Yes, there is no historical archeological evidence that ancient civilizations had wars and there are no bones, coins, no artifacts. The bible has 25,000 Even the Smithsonian letter said 'No thank you.' Yes, you know the truth and we are all misled. Yes, you are more worthy. Yes, we are poor miserable sinners. My friend has no savings, 401k, they have nothing. It all goes to the church. I know. Believe me. Being part of an elite group is better than being alone and being a 'loser', and the non-mormon just smiles and agrees. We are not supposed to let anyone who preaches something other than the bible into our home, but we do, every day. To be nice. To be patient. To be Christian. We are the agreeable ones.

  17. Violet says:

    My friend cried and said that she hoped she was worthy. If anyone on this planet is worthy, its my friend. Yet she is led to believe she might not be worthy enough to be with her family in heaven. Its always try a little more, do a little more, be a little more. We cannot earn our way. She is worthy if anyone anywhere is. Why does mormonism make her feel that way? God cannot love you any more than he does at this very minute. Its all Him. Its like threatening her with separation from her family in heaven. I said I was covered with His righteousness. Its not of my own doing. Its all Him. Pretty big difference in Salvation don't you think. Celebration or tears.

  18. Sorry about the late reply, I never received a notice saying someone replied to me.

    Where does it say that? Have you never read the Bible, God tells us the Bible is His Word, and He Places His Word above His Name.

    Psalm 138:1 [[[A Psalm] of David.]] I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.

    Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

    God cannot Lie

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    It is Impossible for God to lie

    Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

    Let every man be a liar and God be true,

    Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

    Now Either God is a liar and can lie, but then if thats true His BIBLE CANNOT BE TRUSTED, The Bible tells us as I showed He (God) Places His Word above His Name, and He cannot lie. So If Gods word says something and Man comes along and says, God really did not say, or what God really meant, or did God say…

    Then the man is wrong and a lair, otherwise God is a liar and cannot be trusted. If we cannot trust God then we might as well stop reading his Word, Stop following Him and simply eat, drink and be merry for were going to die and lets party before we die.

  19. Enki, When it comes to Christians that believe the Bible We believe it is Jesus Period. Jesus Only, nothing more. When it comes to all other religions, it is Jesus and…

    Or it is some other way but Jesus. Thats the major difference.

  20. wyomingwilly says:

    Violet, This is the fruit of the Mormon "gospel", frustration. The failure to measure up
    to the standards established by Mormon prophets and apostles is certainly not the
    good news of the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. May your friend find the
    liberating truth that is JESUS— Heb.7:25


  21. Enki says:

    Thats pretty sad, but I think I understand it. I had such poor sense of worth, perhaps it never really existed when I was mormon. I am taking two classes now, and Its the best I have done, its like I have actual access to my mind now, which I didn't before. Some say they do better with the church, but thats not my experience.

  22. enki says:

    Yes, that's a great deal of patience. It must be difficult. I am sure there are precious few moments to have a discussion about other philosophical choices. Few where one is not perceived as an enemy trying to remove their hard-earned precious faith.

    You will know when its appropriate to say something, I am sure.

  23. enki says:

    Rick, What constitutes a lie? How do you judge it? Why is partying the only outcome if you are not convinced?

  24. You can't be serious? You know what a lie is. Again Have you read the Bible? You seem to never answer that. Are you married? You dont need to answer it, but lets say your husband has a women on the side and he tells you he does not, but you find pictures of him and this women holding hands and kissing, but he denies it, How do you judge that? Is he lying or telling the truth?

    If that's not enough then here is how the Dictionary defines lying.

    a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
    something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
    an inaccurate or false statement.
    the charge or accusation of lying: He flung the lie back at his accusers.
    –verb (used without object)
    to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive.
    to express what is false; convey a false impression.

    Now you asked about partying, well thats just me, Before I was a follower of Jesus I lived a very debased life of women, drugs and partying. I left that life to follow Jesus, but if Jesus is a liar or really does not exist, why would I want to life a moral upright life, when I can party and have all the women I want? But again thats just me, and I am just being honest about who I am and what I would do.

  25. I was thinking right after my last post, Your no longer a mormon, so did you leave because you felt they lied to you? Or did you leave because you felt the LDS church was wrong? Or did you leave because you believed God was real and He some how wronged you and you simply wanted to do what you wanted to do?

  26. Violet says:

    Sorry if any of my words came across as harsh. Thank you for your kind words.

  27. Enki says:

    So a lie has to be deliberate? It can't simply be a misunderstanding, or incomplete knowledge? There are a lot of things that appear a certain way, but when examined more closely there is another level of reality.

    The radio was speaking about various ethics in the world. There are other options, and implied ethical behavior, its your understanding that life without Jesus is unethical or immoral, not everyone agrees with you.

  28. Violet says:

    The lie that is deliberate is not telling the whole truth because the leaders feel its not in the best interest of the group. The Truth will hold up to scrutiny every time. Steve Hassan, an ex-Moonie says that when members leave a group they trust no one, spouses, themselves, religion, God. Shawn McCraney noted that when most mormons leave, they put all organized religion behind them and Shawn's mission is to lead people to God without organized religion. My dad and mom are athiests and they are good people leaving productive lives but all their hope is in themselves.

  29. Violet says:

    All my answers were general. I do not believe in the indians with white faces. I do not agree with polygamy. I do not agree when someone leaves the church, their families' can put an enormous amount of pressure on them telling them. I agree with everything my friend says and does. I am witnessing my Christianity by not giving her a nervous breakdown with all my facts, obsession with mormonism and just being a friend. My friends though had boundary issues. We all believed in Christ so our homes and lives were completely open. I am from the midwest so LDS culture was a shock. Neighborly, best friends, yes, but instant families in every respect was a little much. I guess its a group thing. Also lost respect when they told my son, their son and he were spirit brothers in the pre-existence and that all other churches were Satan. Still smiling and am agreeing the 'all other churches were Satan' was a misunderstanding on my behalf. If I disagree with anything about the church, I misunderstand. My friend said there was a personal calculator on a retirement savings LDS website. She was so excited because you could figure out how much to save. I told her many websites are out there with the same thing, VanGuard, etc. She just smiled and I knew she cannot look at anything that is not LDS because that 'is the world.' Recipes, books the church approves of, no tv, newspaper, radio. Information bad. Church good. There are no philosophical choices. She has no information about anything other than womanly duties to support the home. She is college educated, beautiful, alarmingly intelligent and asks me for advice and never takes it. Only sources of truth, the church, or family. No independent thinking. Told her last line of bible says 'written out of the book of life'. Mormon scholars disagree with that. PBS special on Mormons. She was shocked it was so slanted against the mormons. I said its like seeing a car accident, everyone has a different view. I am walking a line not to offend. She is sure I am misled, blind and I just smile. I told her mormonism has led me to learn more about my faith and have grown deeper spiritually and in learning about doctrine.

  30. Violet says:

    And another thing. . . I have spent about three years studying mormonism thoroughly. I gave my friend a Luther's small catechism and it was returned the following morning. Do you really think my friend studied my religion, Lutheranism, Missouri Synod, or authentic biblical Christianity. No. I guarantee you not one second of her life has been spent on understanding the 'other side' because we are (1) wrong, (2) she has no time (3) why would she (4) her family on both sides are LDS, friends, college friends (5) her whole life is LDS. I have patience trying to learn mormonism. They have no patience for us. Thought stopping.

  31. It's more a matter of People do not agree with the Bible Not me. If You choose to reject the word of God thats your choice not mine. The Bible tells us that we are all wicked and evil and nothing good dwells in us. When people say, Why do bad things happen to good people, It should be corrected and said, Bad things happen to bad people, and Good things happen to Bad people. Read Jer 17:9

    The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    Their are many other verses that talk about how wicked we are and how we are all gone astray, You need to read the Bible and do your own research, You refuse to answer the question of, Have you read the Bible, Then you ask me where it says….

    That tells me you never read the Bible and you dont believe it.

  32. Enki said

    It can't simply be a misunderstanding, or incomplete knowledge?

    Please tell me your kidding? I dont have a complete knowledge of You, so does that mean you or me is lying? F_melo admitted to misunderstanding you, that did not make him a liar, your either really crafty and fighting the truth, or your really very ignorant.

    I had two MM's over not to long ago, they asked me to pray about the truth of the BoM, I told them I have done that many times and the answer is always the same, The BoM is false. Well I said Just for you guys I will do it again, so I did. The response God gave me was this…

    The MM's came back to my house and I had a lot of LDS books, Like the entire JoD, The 1888 Pearl, the original D and C and many other books. I told them that I prayed about the BoM again and this was what God wanted me to tell them. I told these two MM's that I would sit down with them and show them from their own books all kinds of contradictions between their scriptures and their scriptures and the prophets.

    I told them I know that one of 3 things will happen, One Missionary will talk the other out of seeing these problems. Both will want to see them, but they will tell someone like another MM's and they will talk them out of it, or they will both choose not to look into the issues, They laughed, I told them this will be a witness against you since God wanted me to tell you this, I did show them a ton of problems and they left, I never saw them again.

    To sit here and tell me you have the truth (I'M REFERRING TO LDS, NOT YOU ENKI) and I am wrong in what I believe, but then you do not want to tell me exactly where and how I am wrong, you do not want to talk at all, you cannot show me and then you tell me, I want to hear the truth and want to talk to you, but then leave and never come back tells me your lying.

  33. Violet says:

    Rick. Enki replies short sentences as a question and you are left defending Christianity with long beautiful and I believe, correct, essays. She doesn't want the truth or a discussion. She wants to prove you wrong. Your comments are well thought out, selfless and you are putting way too much education and she replies, with another, well why? And you are left responding with these beautiful answers. Its like a little kid, 'But why can't I have the $400 vildeo game?' They don't really want to know why? They just want to argue. PS. I do appreciate your responses though. They are more than reasonable. When the person you are debating just says, 'What is a lie?' 'What is the meaning of 'is'? (President Clinton), then they have no argument except for, 'Yeah. So. Mormons are nice' Yeah. I know mormons are nice that is not debatable. Its the religion we are talking about, not the people. The people are misled.

  34. Enki says:

    Rick, That is a bit of projection. I have read it several times. It's just been a long time since I have read it. Also, I never know what people 'pull out of the hat'. Its a fairly lengthy book. Although its shorter than many Hindu epics, of which I have never read.

    Some biologists do not agree with the Bible, for instance Leviticus 11:21-23, describes locusts and grasshoppers as having four legs. Biologically they are considered to be insects, having six legs. There could be some other cultural reason why ancient jews count only four, and modern biologists count six, but from a modern perspective it seems incorrect. I recently watched a program describing customs relating to womens menstral cycles. I found it amazing how around the world the customs were so similiar. They were based upon incomplete understanding of biology and natural cycles. Also seeming very superstitious. Leviticus 15. I don't think anyone writing these things meant to be incorrect, its just that the modern perspective has changed how these things are viewed. It could be that in the ancient world, they simply were not able to have the means to see things as we do now.

  35. Enki says:

    Well, unfortunately an earlier responce was deleted, or somehow didn't make it to the board. I read the Bible several times, but I wanted to know where those ideas were from because the Bible is a pretty large book. How do I know that someone isn't just making something up? Its been a very long time since I read from it.

    Sometimes there are contradictions based on limitations of knowledge. For example Leviticus 11: 21-23, it describes grasshopers and locus as having 4 legs. Modern biologists count 6 legs. I don't know if the ancient jews were actively trying to 'lie' in their description. Leviticus 15:19-30 describes customs around the menstral cycle. Around the world there are customs very similiar to these, all based on a misunderstanding or incomplete knowledge of human reproduction. I don't think anyone in the O.T. set out to 'lie', but it is fitting for most peoples current understanding of the female reproductive system.

  36. RalphNWatts says:

    You mentioned about LDS members shunning any family members that leave t he LDs church. Did you know that many Lutherans do the same? I have seen it many times. I have a few friends that left the Lutheran church and joined the LDS church and they were disowned outright by their families. They were told not to contact them at all until they have returned to the Lutheran church. The people I know have not had any contact with their parents and siblings (sometimes even children) for years/decades. So you cannot just specify that LDS do it when even your church (well the Lutheran church anyway) does it.

  37. I dont know anything about Grass hoppers having four or six legs, but first off, that is not a salvation issue or God lying, That might have been a mistake. If that is what your hanging your eternal salvation upon then it seems to me your simply looking for excuses not to believe the Bible. Then on the issue of a women's menstrual cycle, again your grasping at straws here. I say that because you really make no case about it, what is it about the menstrual cycle that does not line up with the Bible?

    So others dont do it the same way, one thing people forget or simply dont understand is, God gave the Jews things to do that the gentiles did not have to do, like eating certain foods for example, or how to handle the menstrual cycle for example. God set the Jews apart from us gentiles. The gentiles only had to live this way if they converted over to Judaism. otherwise we did not have to obey every single commanded, like not eating pork, or resting on Sundays for example. So at least in the case of a womens cycle you have not really made a case since you gave no details. Again as to the grasshoppers, maybe someone will Know more than I do, other wise I will look into it and try to reply.

  38. Violet says:

    Maybe they were disowned because they joined the LDS church, not just because they left the Lutheran Church. I guarantee, the leap would not have been so wide had they joined a Catholic or other non-mormon church. Jesus is from heavenly parents that live near the planet Kolob. That's a bigger stretch than jumping from catholic to protestant or some other biblical church.

  39. Violet says:

    Rick. Enki said she read the bible several times. The bible is not perfect but infallible. It has everything to lead someone to salvation.

  40. Ralph, Both sides tend to do that, but here is what I think, many sides do that simply because they are mad. You never see Jesus doing that, it cannot be found taught in the Bible and we are not taught in the Bible to do that. So both sides can do what they want, but dont try and make it out to be something it's not. Yes they/We do stupid things but thats on us. I know many people who left the Church I go to, be it to walk away from God completely or just that they were mad at someone so they choose to leave. Many of us at church try and reach out to them and be friends, but it is the people that left that want nothing to do with us, Either because they are convicted so they dont talk to us, or they are mad at us and dont want to talk about it. Either way it is not of God to act that way.

  41. RalphNWatts says:

    It was not just joining the LDs church – I only know people that are in my church that are in this situation, but I had heard of others that joined the Pentecostal, SDA, JW and Anglican that were ostracised by their families. I just don't know them personally so I didn't want to mention them.

    One of my friends has a strong Catholic background in their family as they are from the Phillipines, when they joined the LDS church their family and friends turned their backs on them. As RickB said, it happens in all religions even though the Bible (well at least the NT) and religion teaches otherwise.

  42. Violet says:

    Here is the difference: If an LDS becomes Catholic, the LDS families MAY attend the ceremony. If a ex-Catholic, ex-Lutheran or other ex-non-mormon church member marries in the LDS temple, their families must sit in the lobby. Its the LDS that draw the lines of secrecy. Slitting throat to swear in endowment ceremony, sacred ceremonies marrying in the temple, endowment ceremonies. I attended LDS Trunk or Treat and my neighbor walked in with a Starbucks. No one tells the 'us's' of the world the rules until we 'joined' the church. That my friend is the difference. Its not apples and oranges. Its Gods on other planets, Kolob, man progressed to become God, Gods, Goddesses, spirit children. Might be common knowledge to a mormon but its not in the book of mormon. Oh, and the cross is completely insignificant? No cross in mormonism.

  43. Enki says:

    Well, there are those that promote the book as being scientifically correct and accurate, but the book is not a book of science. The mentral cycle thing is pretty significant because those customs were developed based on a certain understanding or misunderstanding. Its a topic worth researching if you are really interested. It has something to do with the idea that females have some strange unknown supernatural influence. And yes its part of the holiness code, which is pretty significant as well.

  44. Enki says:

    Infallible, as in excempt from error? one definition gives it as such,

    " immune from fallacy or liability to error in expounding matters of faith or morals by virtue of the promise made by Christ to the Church. "

    Does this apply also to scientific observations? Its a book of philosophy, not science.

  45. enki says:

    In at least one language the word for 'lie' and 'joke' are the same word. I felt the need to clarify what is meant by 'lie'. There can be many levels of incongruity. Doctrinal 'lies' are not always on purpose, although sometimes they can be, but its always a matter of perspective. I once lived with a pathological liar, he was always so believeable. On closer inspection he was actually telling the truth.

  46. Violet says:

    So its ok if someone lies because upon closer inspection, they may be actually telling the truth? 'Doctrinal 'lies' are not always on purpose, although sometimes they can be, but its always a matter of perspective.' I have an eleven year old son. No matter what he does, I will make an excuse for him, defend him to the end, even to my husband, and want to believe everything he does, is really out of love and his is just misunderstood. I know what real love is too. I understand you love the LDS and the LDS people. We do too. But truth is truth. If a religion keeps saying, we are the true church, every second, its like Shakespeare, 'Thou doth protest too much. We believe we are called to be saints too. Our robes are washed white in the blood (not our our righteousness, its all His righteousness). Enki. I understand love too. Its gonna be ok. A lie is a lie.

  47. Violet says:

    See Shawn McCraney Heart of the Matter this week. Now the prophet is saying to the missionaries, tell them the BOM is not a novel, but it is not historical either. Where does that leave the grasshoppers if even the prophets cannot commit to the historicity of the BOM. I thought everything was the truth. Sounds like somebody is caught in a lie and is backpeddling. Just watch to get the name of the prophet so you can research yourself. Not asking you to believe in McCraney at all. Although his three part youtube videos on Mormon Stories with John Dehlin is pretty interesting about not believing in organized religion.

  48. f_melo says:

    The guy gave him the quote wrong… i´ve emailed him with the correct quote:

    "You can invite a friend to read the Book of Mormon. Explain that it is not a novel or a history book."

    The BoM technically is not a history book as the Bible isn´t a history book either. So, technically he is right, but as i said to Shawn on the e-mail, we all know they are using those words on purpose to start the transition in people´s minds from believing the BoM to be a book that contains actual history to a "revelation" that didn´t necessarily happen in real life events.

  49. f_melo says:

    Rick, i stopped following this topic, just now i saw this conversation…

    You have good valid points – but i understand what Enki is saying… she´s saying that if God revealed something in the Law, and that something is proven to be false then that revelation is false, putting to question the entire Bible as a true revelation from God.

    but as you said, she didn´t make a case for it, so there´s nothing to respond to here…

  50. f_melo says:

    I agree with you, Violet, 100%

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