Mormons: What did it mean for the Father to be “Christlike” when he was a mere mortal on another planet? Was he imitating his own Messiah? Was he full of the “light of Christ”, i.e. the light of his own particular Messiah? Assuming the Father taught our Jesus to be “Christlike”, doesn’t that mean that the Father was teaching our Jesus to be like another Christ that the Father once submitted to as his Savior and Lord?
Wouldn’t all this mean that our Jesus Christ is imitating the kind person that potentially billions of other Christs act like on other worlds? If our Jesus is one of potentially billions of other Christs among other worlds, then when we say someone is “Christ-like”, doesn’t that also mean that he is conforming to a pattern that billions of other Christs have followed?
Aaron,
You're making my head spin. Mormons don't think like that, in fact they don't want to go down the road you've paved here. If Mormons start to really think about the absurdity of Mormonism, they won't stay in Mormonism. The rank and file just slide across the rather thin ice of Mormonism unaware of what that cracking noise is under them. Most Mormons, I'd venture to say, are hooked on the "we have a prophet and our families will be together forever" happy talk that permeates Mormonism.
I got thinking after I last posted that when we talk about becoming "Christ Like" that it all depends on first, who a person thinks Jesus is and second what the person's motivation would be to become like Jesus. To answer the first question would depend on if a person is a Mormon or a Christian. To a Christian Jesus is God incarnate; not "a god" as Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses claim, but rather "thee God" as revealed in the Bible as taught by the apostles and defended by the Church Fathers.
Now as to motivation in becoming Christ-like. As a Christian when I talk about becoming Christ-like I mean that I want my behavior and character to conform to God's ideal, His Son Jesus. My purpose is to be a living sacrifice to God, a fragrant offering; done out of gratitude for what God did for me through Jesus.
A Mormon's motivation to becoming like the Mormon Jesus is so that he (Mormon male) may become a god, like all of his relative gods who rule their own planetary systems and have multitudes of spirit babies who, having taken on mortal bodies, pray to, worship and adore the Mormon male who became a god.
So it always returns to the idea of who God is and what is our eternal destiny is in Him.
Falcon,
I’m sorry, but there are those in the LDS faith that think about those things. I don’t know how many times I have heard discussions in the Gospel Doctrine class (ie adult Sunday School class) where they try and figure out what is happening on other planets that God has created and populated. Is there a Messiah figure on those planets or does Jesus cover all of this creation? What about Heavenly Father’s other creations, do they need a Messiah or does Jesus cover them too?
The big thing about it is that these questions have no bearing on our salvation so we shouldn’t really try and dig too deep into them. All that matters is that we have Jesus who is our Saviour and Redeemer and it is through Him that we can enter Heavenly Father’s presence for eternity.
How about this question (open to everyone not just Falcon) – in your Christian beliefs, has God populated other planets? If so, do they have a Messiah figure as we do or do they have a different system or was Jesus enough for them all? If He has not populated other planets then why build this huge universe and only worry about one small planet?
I agree with falcon that not all Mormons think about this, but some do. This type of thinking is all about speculation rather than the revealed Word. Someone's been watching too much Star Trek.
I'm so happy that I don't have to worry about this!
The Christ Whom I serve is God (Matthew 1:23; John 1:1; John 8:58-59; John 10:30-33; John 14:9-11; John 20:28; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:8-10; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8-9). And, since He is God, I know that besides [Him] there is no savior (Isaiah 43:11) and besides [Him] there is no God (Isaiah 44:6; Isaiah 45:18).
He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last (Revelation 1:8; 1:17-18; 22:13).
He is the fullness of Him who fills all in all (Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:19).
He is the One Who was from the beginning and the One without Whom nothing was made that was made (John 1:1-3; John 17:5; Colossians 1:16-17).
He is the One Who, while we were still sinners, died for us (Romans 5: 6-8).
He is the One Who is able to save us completely (Hebrews 17:25; Colossians 2:10).
Jesus is the only way (John 14:6; Acts 4:12)!
I don't believe that God would play a game of semantics, such as, there is no other God "for this world." Isaiah 46:9 says, 9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me…
As for being Christ – like, Ephesians 5 is a great place to start. We are to: 1 "…be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma."
I'm so happy that our eternal destiny is in the mighty and loving hands of our perfect, holy, worthy, majestic, merciful, and matchless God!
" I don’t know how many times I have heard discussions in the Gospel Doctrine class (ie adult Sunday School class) where they try and figure out what is happening on other planets that God has created and populated."
I remember having similar discussions like that with my brother about the Star Wars universe. It´s fun, but pure fantasy just like what you just mentioned.
"The big thing about it is that these questions have no bearing on our salvation"
So, it is ok to ignore the huge holes in the doctrine because of that, right, in despite of the Bible clearly denying everything you said you talked about in Gospel Doctrine class? I guess it is because you know in your heart it is true and one day it will all make sense… especially when you find out you "ain´t" becoming a god on the other side.
"All that matters is that we have Jesus who is our Saviour and Redeemer and it is through Him that we can enter Heavenly Father’s presence for eternity."
You sound so Christian. You should actually say "it is through Him after all we can do that we can enter…" otherwise people might think you believe in Salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, and that´s a horrible Satan inspired doctrine isn´t it…
" in your Christian beliefs, has God populated other planets? If so, do they have a Messiah figure as we do or do they have a different system or was Jesus enough for them all? If He has not populated other planets then why build this huge universe and only worry about one small planet?"
Sorry, but that question is laughable… it only works in your Mormon world-view. See, let me tell this once again, Christians go by what the Bible says which is what God has revealed through the Prophets. I don´t know, but you should at least be able to get this "Words of the Prophets" thing right. You know, you don´t go beyond what Joseph has revealed, so why should you require that Christians go beyond what God revealed to real Prophets in the Old and the Apostles in the New Testament?
Now, just to refresh your memory:
Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". 2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters".
See it says "in the beginning" – so, there was a beginning to the universe – even atheists believe that. It also says God created the heaven and the earth, singular not plural.
Keep reading that chapter, it should enlighten your understanding and maybe you´ll realize how you keep blaspheming the name and sovereignty of God.
"If so, do they have a Messiah figure as we do or do they have a different system or was Jesus enough for them all?"
When are you going to stop offending and blaspheming the Son of God? He´s unique, there are no MessiahS – there is only one.
Hosea 13:4 "Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me."
"THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDE ME"
So, Ralph i believe you´re an intelligent guy, and that you can understand those words, so i recommend you think about that and i´ll pray God will open your eyes so you´ll stop blaspheming the name of Jesus and start worshiping the One True God.
fmelo,
So I take it you do not believe that there is life on other planets and that this one planet is all that God has populated. Is this correct? What about the Christians out there that believe that there is life on other planets? Are they 'Christian' too or are you going to say they are non-Christian, or just place them in the 'too hard to label' basket?
Or are you saying that if there is life on other planets that Jesus was sufficient for all of them as well?
I think Falcon summed up the whole being "Christilike" idea the mormons have in the commentaries of the last article when he said:
"The god(s) of Mormonism are merely sinful men who completed a self-improvement program"
The whole thing is just a self-improvement program. You don´t have to acquire all the attributes to be saved.
Actually thinking about that, i just realized that Mormon theology would make an awesome RPG game. You´re the child of king that was sent on a quest to be tested to see if you could receive the maximum reward and become a king yourself. In this journey you´ll have to acquire as many "Christlike" attributes as possible: Those will define how big your homecoming party will be. The more attributes you acquire will also mean the more glory you´ll receive. Unfortunately your enemy put two major roadblocks that are keeping you from achieving your eternal reward – but no worries, the father king sent your older brother to take care of those for you so you can continue on.
If you do things right, at the end of the Game you´ll receive a free copy of SimCity: Universe Edition, where you can upload your character and start creating your own universe.
Do you think i would get a lawsuit from the Mormon church if i actually made a game with their theology but changing the names of things?
That´s how upset i feel after thinking about the questions Aaron proposed and how much of my life i wasted believing and defending that absurd… i´ve deeply repented of offending God and Jesus like that, and like Falcon said, i want to become Christlike because of the love i received even though i was a filthy sinner.
Ralph,
You are talking about Mormonism and speculating on things that don't exist any where but in the minds of Mormons. If you want to be saved, you need to get the right Jesus. Also, there are two levels of salvation in Mormonism. One of these is universal in scope and covers everyone that ever lived. The second is the man to god program which requires the Mormon to do all that he can to achieve deity status.
You're not going to become a god Ralph. I don't care how sincere you are about what you believe or how much you feel it, without the Jesus of the Bible, you're lost for eternity. The problem is that because of your Mormon witness and testimony, you're taking your whole family into eternity without God. There is no forever family and no pot of god gold at the end of your works-righteousness program of perfection.
If you want to be like Christ Ralph, you have to know Him. I pray that God extend His love and mercy to you that you may know Him and that in knowing Him you will receive the salvation of your soul.
"So I take it you do not believe that there is life on other planets and that this one planet is all that God has populated. Is this correct?"
That´s what the book of Genesis says and i believe it. There´s only this planet with human beings in it.
"What about the Christians out there that believe that there is life on other planets? Are they 'Christian' too or are you going to say they are non-Christian, or just place them in the 'too hard to label' basket?"
I don´t know, maybe they should read Genesis again, because they are in error. Yes even though they are in error they are still Christians, because they believe in the Biblical God, in the Biblical Jesus and believe in Salvation by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone.
"Or are you saying that if there is life on other planets that Jesus was sufficient for all of them as well?"
If there was life in other planets(which is not Biblical) Jesus would have been enough for all, past, present and future. Jesus would have been enough even for Master Yoda!
Or reading the Book of Abraham yet again!
"What did it mean for the Father to be “Christlike” when he was a mere mortal on another planet? Was he imitating his own Messiah?"
Aaron, what a great question. Actually in that world-view Jesus wouldn´t get the credit for being the original author of "Christlike" behavior simply because in mormonism he is a half-breed, a semi-god, 50% God and 50% human, and that´s what gave him the advantage we don´t have. Otherwise we could have been perfect too.In mormonism Jesus isn´t God incarnate, so, it could even be considered that he had an unfair advantage over us.
Who was the first one who set the standard?
In the temple movie when God asks Satan what he was doing when he gave them the forbidden fruit, Satan said that he was just doing what had been done in other worlds. That means the whole drama had been acted before countless times even.
So, were there other Satans too? Were Jesus and Satan just playing the same roles played by billions of others before them?
I just think about our "pre-mortal" family reunion – Heavenly Father comes in and says, ´hey kids, it´s that time, you know what to do. who is going to play Satan? Who is going to play the Messiah? You, you, alright, we are good to go. Satan, rebel against me already, your mother(s) and i want to start another generation, because my brother has surpassed me in glory, and i need more of you to get exalted to increase my glory beyond his and become the top god in the council of gods again"
"In mormonism Jesus isn´t God incarnate, so, it could even be considered that he had an unfair advantage over us."
I think i need to elaborate on that thought a little better:
In mormonism we and jesus are all spirit-children of Elohim, created equal. Apparently Jesus perfected himself above every other son or daughter of Elohim, and maybe that´s because he had more time to learn since he was born first. So, what´s the difference between Jesus and us, and what would enable Jesus to live a perfect life and perform the atoning sacrifice?
So, we and Jesus are essentially the same, but since he was chosen to be the Messiah, he had to have an advantage on earth, otherwise he could have sinned just like all of us have, and that would destroy Elohim´s plan and could even cost him his entire creation.
That´s when Elohim decides do impregnate Mary. By doing so Jesus will be 50% god and 50% man. The 50% god part will give him the advantage over the 50% man and he will perform his role perfectly, succeeding to overcome sin. The 50% man will enable him to die.
Now, that´s the part that makes the least sense. Since the sacrifice for the sins of men was done in the Garden of Gethsemane, why did he have to die on the cross? I guess he died on the cross because it was the common roman method of executing the death penalty. If he had to die just so he could perform the resurrection, then he didn´t have to be the "literal" son of god to do that. After his death he could simply use his priesthood authority and that would do the trick.
So, i conclude that his 50% god nature had the sole purpose of giving him the advantage over the flesh and therefore over sin. That being the case, one could argue that Jesus, having the same nature we have because he is only our spirit-brother, had an unfair advantage over sin and that Elohim could have shared that condition with all of us, avoiding the need for Jesus to have suffered in the Garden.
Christianity doesn´t have that problem simply because God and men have different natures. That simple.
I have a question for mormons: If Adam and Eve were created as perfect beings in the Garden of Eden, and Jesus was created perfect as well, why was Eve capable of sinning but not Jesus? Were Adam and Eve created with flaws? What was the difference between their nature and Jesus´nature that they weren´t capable of resisting sin?
If being "Christ-like" means ascribing to a list of character qualities and behavioral imperatives then even an atheist could achieve "Christ-like" status. Jesus' admonition to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit those in prison and extend charity to all, even your enemies could realistically be embraced by a "moral man". In the book of Romans, first three chapters, Paul builds an indictment against the heathen, the Jew and the moral man. In the end the bottom line is that all sin and fall short of the glory of God. That's why we need a Savior.
Being "Christ-like" goes beyond behavior. It also includes knowing what Jesus knew. Jesus knew the Father. Jesus understood the monotheistic imperative, that there is One God. Jesus understood that mankind needed a Savior and He was it. He told His followers that since they had seen Him, they had seen the Father.
Mormons hide their blasphemous doctrine of the nature of God behind a cloak of behavioral expectations and a form of devotion and piety. It looks good and feels good to them and even provides them with their own particular sense of spiritual superiority along with a faux concept of revelation. The problem of course is that they don't know what Jesus knew and therefore they don't know Jesus. They are not "Christ-like".
Jury convicts Smart kidnapper, rejects insanity:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101210/ap_on_re_us/u…
"He's a predatory chameleon with the cunning to adapt his behavior to serve his needs and desires at any given moment," Assistant U.S. Attorney Diana Hagen said during an 80-minute closing argument.
Doesn´t that sound like Joseph Smith…
If being "Christ-like" means ascribing to a list of character qualities and behavioral imperatives then even an atheist could achieve "Christ-like" status. Jesus' admonition to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit those in prison and extend charity to all, even your enemies could realistically be embraced by a "moral man". In the book of Romans, first three chapters, Paul builds an indictment against the heathen, the Jew and the moral man. In the end the bottom line is that all sin and fall short of the glory of God. That's why we need a Savior.
Well of course it does. This is the legacy of Joseph Smith. The tragedy is that Mormons go to any length possible to defend and rationalize Smith's behavior even to the point of trying to find Biblical support for it. For these cult leaders, it's the same routine. The techniques and their motives do not change. You'd think that people would be smart enough to catch on, but they don't.
I would so own at that game. Maybe like Xbox you could get achievements too. If you're character abstains from coffee, tea, and smoking (which could provide power-up effects in the game), CONGRATULATIONS! "WORD OF WISDOM – +5 god points!"
Ralph, why are you even caring what Christians think. Why dont you send a letter to Monson asking him to have it declared in General Conference the answer to your questions – you said it yourself other Mormons are discussing this stuff in Sunday School.. Wait, sorry, I forgot, your prophet doesn't like to tell you the answers God supposedly gives to him..
Ask your neighborhood mechanic, I mean, Bishop.
That is meant to be completely satirical but hopefully show you how sad it is your own "prophet" is no prophet at all. At least he tells everyone to be good at GC! I've never thought of being good, wow, thanks prophy. What? don't beat my wife? Woops, I didn't know God didn't like that.
gpark5, that was great , and right to the point ! Thank you.
ww
f_melo wrote
Ha ha ha.
In my more mischievous moments, I thought of suggesting a thread here on "Find out everything you need to know about Mormonism by playing World of Warcraft"
The similarities are striking. You spend your time earning credits so you can get up to the next level, however the "currency" you earn has absolutely no value outside the parameters of the game.
In Phillippians 3:7-11 the Apostle Paul writes:
"But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish in order that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead."
The first step in becoming more Christ-like, is to first know Him; knowing Him through faith for who He really is. Mormons cheat Jesus and make Him into a kind of valiant older brother. In Mormon mythology, one of the gods and one of his wives, procreate a spirit being known as Jesus. This Mormon Jesus is just one of many of the spirit children of this god and his many wives. This Jesus is one of the many gods that populate the universe although he is special because unlike his father-god who procreated him, he is sinless. So I surmise from this and other Mormon teachings, that the Mormon must strive to become sinless in order to become a god also. I believe that Mormons also teach that if they sin and are forgiven and return to that sin, it won't be forgiven (someone can help me out on this). So Mormons are kind of in a bind on this if they hope to become gods. They do have an ace in the hole however, since they do get some credit for effort (after all they can do) and in the end supposedly the Mormon Jesus covers the short-fall of any works that haven't completed, so that they might become a god.
So this little primer points out to us that Mormons don't know Christ Jesus and although their attempts to be moral could be considered laudatory, they can't become Christ-like if they don't know Christ. In-the-end, the Mormon concept of becoming Chris-like is quite different than that taught in the Bible. Christians strive to become Christ-like in order to honor God and show our appreciation for what He has done for us through Jesus. I believe it can be said that the Mormon strives to literally become Christ-like and in their myth that means becoming a god.
Besides this, Mormons don't know human nature very well since the Bible tells us that our very nature is oriented to sin. It's only through Christ's atoning sacrifice and our faith in Him that we can be "declared" righteous by God. As Paul explained in the above Scripture, the only goodness that we have is that which comes through faith in Christ. Attempting to become righteous especially through obedience to a religion and the mindless repetition of rituals won't gain for the practitioner anything except frustration because at the end of the day, they can never do enough.
So, for those who seek to become Christ-like, it's important to know Jesus as he is. And to know Jesus as He is, we can look to the early Church and how they labored to get it right concerning our Lord. The early church looked at the apostolic testimony that is found in the NT. The NT is not muddled in it's portrayal of Jesus. In the NT Jesus is the Savior, the Mediator between God's holiness and human sin. Jesus is seen as true God and also as human. There had to be a challenge mounted, by the early Church, to any teaching that didn't do justice to the full witness of the Scriptures.
When Arianism is examined, for example, we see that it fails to understand that Jesus is the "Uncreated One". Basically Arius saw Jesus as a creature. This is not how Jesus is presented in the apostolic testimony, especially in the writings of John and Paul.
Heresy is countered by the use of precise theological definitions. Such precise language rules out heretical interpretations that don't measure up to the wholeness of the Biblical faith.
The early councils, which are criticized by the cults, did the heavy lifting and hard labor of working out a language that had precision and expressed the accurate understanding of who Christ is. One of the techniques of cults and heretics from the beginning of the Church, was to claim special secret knowledge concerning who Jesus is. It's not unlike what we see with Mormons today with their progressive revelation and restoration of the true Gospel. The Church dispatched each of these heresies which sought to make Christ something other than who he really is.
For example:
Docetists: Christ couldn't be flesh because flesh is evil. Christ only seemed human. He only appeared to die.
Apollinarians: Jesus was not human and divine in equal parts. He was one person and had one nature. Jesus didn't have a human mind or spirit. In Him was a divine mind and will and his divinity controlled, it sanctified his humanity.
Modalists: Jesus "modes" changed with his roles as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So the result is that when God is the Son, He is not the Father. The result of this thinking is that there is no permanent distinction between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Ebionites: Jesus was a specially blessed prophet.
Adoptionists: Jesus was special and at birth God "adopted" the human Jesus. Thus Jesus is His special son. Jesus was given an extra measure of divine power.
Arians: Jesus was created by God. He is not eternal. He is not perfect like God. He functioned as God's agent in creation.
One of the tragedies, I think, of people caught in cults with their heretical teachings about Jesus, is that the true knowledge of who Christ Jesus is, is knowable. A person doesn't need super secret information, special revelation or even an experience such as the "burning in the bosom" to get at the facts of who Jesus is. In fact, emotional experiences, while enjoyable, often lead people into error rather than the truth.
God clearly reveals who He is in his Word the Bible. The early Church did in fact do the heavy lifting when it came to drawing clear lines between orthodoxy and heresy. Taking the word of some half-baked prophet without diligently searching out the traditions of the Church and the Word of God is irresponsible.
"I believe that Mormons also teach that if they sin and are forgiven and return to that sin, it won't be forgiven (someone can help me out on this). "
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 82:7: “And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.”
D&C 42:25 "But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive; 26 But if he doeth it again, he shall not be forgiven, but shall be cast out."
I'm wondering, is "marrying" more than one woman adultery? I mean being married at the same time to several women some of whom are already married. Is that adultery? I'm guessing there must be an exception to this rule as expressed in D&C 42:25.
I am aware that just about anything can be weaseled in Mormonism.
falcon,
Of Joseph Smith's 30+ wives, about 9 of them were simultaneously married to other living husbands.
If that is not the definition of adultery, I don't know what is.
Adultery . This is why the followers of Joseph Smith ( those who were'nt worthy to be privy
to the fact of his secret lifestyle of accumulating wives) were shocked at the rummors , since
the Church law on Marriage was clear at that time—-one man , one woman.
ww
I'm wondering if Joseph Smith's behavior was Christ-like. On second thought, I don't have to wonder about it. Anyone want to make a list?
But Joseph Smith gets a free pass because he was a "prophet". Mormons will run to the Bible and try to find a figure (usually in the OT), that sinned. That's how Mormons justify Smith's behavior. I call it the argument from equivalency. So given that approach, Mormons may as well sin away as Smith did.
Because in order to get into the CK you have to or don't have to be perfect. In that program the Mormon Jesus covers what's left of the undone work in order to become a god. Why not just do 10% and let the 90% get covered?
That's my answer to the Mormon claim that Christians think that once they receive Jesus as Lord and Savior they can sin with impunity.
falcon, you bring up a good point, which is that a person can live a consistant moral lifestyle
and yet not be all the way home, so to speak. Mormons are striving to serve God by being
humble and persistant in their "following Christ " etc. Yet this is only one side of the coin.The
other side asks the question , " who is Jesus Christ? It's conduct and confession. The book
of 2 John briefy touches on these, (the two sides of the coin. ) . Both of these are necessary.
When we see what God says about Himself in scripture, and compare this with what Mormon
prophets say about Him , there has to be consistancy. Being confident in living a " Christ-like"
lifestyle will not make up for accepting the inacurrate teachings about God from such prophets.
Great idea! I could seriously at least write it, and maybe design the characters… it would be fun!!!
"Find out everything you need to know about Mormonism by playing World of Warcraft"
That´s a great title for a book!
The appearance of Jesus to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus is one of my favorite accounts of the post resurrection appearances of our Lord. It can be found in Luke 24 starting with verse 13. BTW, the painting depicting this encounter is also one of my favorites.
In verses 25-27 Jesus said, "……O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory? And beginning with Moses and with all the prophets He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures."
The disciples were confused, frightened, in mourning and wandering about in search of some answers. Notice that Jesus didn't talk about the social gospel and the things that His followers should do behaviorally to meet the ideal He had presented to them. No, He tells them who He is again so that they would grasp the significance of what He had done on the Cross of Calvary. There was speculation among the disciples and the people as they waited for an earthly king that would deliver them from the oppressive Roman governmental rule.
They came to understand that Jesus was God incarnate and that God had a plan for our salvation from the time Adam and Eve sinned. Knowing Jesus, and who He is, is basic to obtaining this salvation. Seeing Jesus as a created being, as do the Mormons and JWs, just won't cut it. The Scriptures, the witness of the apostles, and the traditional teachings of the Church tells us clearly who Jesus is.
I can't understand how these heretical groups think they are gaining by degrading Jesus and God's Word. The JWs go so far as changing the Gospel according to John by identifying Jesus as "a god". Mormons subscribe to conspiracy theories in order to serve their own perverted view of Christ.
Ralph, you said, " All that matters is that we have Jesus who is our Savior and Redeemer and it's
through Him that we can enter Heavenly Father's presence for eternity. "
I hope this statement of yours is a sign that you're coming around to see that Jesus is the complete
answer for you, because it is a correct statement. When I first read it I thought, " right on ", but then I
also thought that it sure sounds like Mormon P.R. , the kind of thing one might hear from the Mormons
who meet the visitors in Temple square etc. I want to think positively concerning you relative to this
statement, but I'm also reminded of the fact as a Mormon, you do not set Mormon doctrine. So I take
this statement of yours and compare it with what your leaders have said relative to it :
cont. " President Ezra Taft Benson cautioned that ' one who rationalizes that he or she
has a testimony of Jesus Christ but cannot accept direction and counsel from the
leadership of His church is in a fundamentally unsound position and in jeopardy
of losing exaltation. " [ church manual, Search These Commandments, p. 5 ]
This statement kind of brings things into perspective and would add a troubling element to
the statement you made above, i.e. the " all that matters is that we have Jesus " , is'nt all that
matters, it's what the prophet says that matters . When the prophet says that a cup of tea can
prohibit you from gaining God's presence here ( the Temple) then a testimony of Jesus really
is'nt valued for what it is —–Heb 7:25 . Keep seeking Him, Ralph.
Jesus wasn't expressing anything new when He presented His teachings on how people should conduct themselves in their everyday lives. Jesus as God incarnate (not "a god" or a "created being"), was the Word, the Logos. He was the revealed Word of God. Jesus embodied what had been written in the Scriptures, as revealed by God's true prophets, for centuries. Jesus wasn't just here, however, just to rail against religious hypocrisy or encourage people to clean living and charity to the unfortunate. Jesus, was here as God incarnate to offer Himself as a sacrifice for the sin of mankind and for all of those who would accept Him, through faith, as their Savior, to enter into eternal life with Him. That is the Gospel. It wasn't that if someone would live cleanly and perform certain religious rituals, they would become gods. This is an affront to the very Being of God and His uniqueness as the One and only, eternal, and never changing God.
f_melo,
I'm not going to attempt to untangle the knotted theology of Mormonism.
However, if Jesus did have some sort of advantage over us, then he cannot be our Christ. I'm a real stickler for this – Jesus' capacity to reconcile humanity to God rests on the fact that he is fully and wholly human (he is also fully and wholly God). The Bible has much to say about this, but one of the important pointers is that Jesus preferred to refer to himself using the epithet "Son of Man", meaning that he had inherited everything that it means to be human. (Interestingly, the epithet "Son of God" or "Son of the Most High" is most commonly used by the demons; and they weren't lying).
Irenaeus of Lyon argues this point extensively in his "Against Heresies", particularly that the birth of Christ was not simply like "water passing through a tube" as the Gnostics asserted, but that the Incarnate Word had to be born into the world through Mary so that it could put on her flesh. Irenaeus labors the point for precisely this reason – Christ had to be one of us and if he wasn't, we have no hope of being saved. Why? Because we'd have to turn ourselves into something we're not.
A little later, Athanasius gets on the case
(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed)
I know Mormons will dismiss Athanasius as an Apostate, and probably Irenaeus too, but we've argued here ad nauseam that these early Church Fathers were building on what the NT teaches, unlike the Mormon prophets, who simply make it up as they go along.
Ralph,
I would be very interested to see if other planets have intelligent life, like our own.
However, we haven't found any yet, and we certainly have not communicated with any, so any speculation about what these alien "people" are like is nothing more than pure speculation. Incidentally, I think it's funny that people seem to expect to find something like the enlightened humanist out there, without realizing that their expectations are based on nothing more than Gene Roddenberry's visions in "Star Trek".
Personally, I think that if there were "human-like" life out there, it would respond to "our" Christian Gospel – the story of how religion and temples fail to deliver, but God intervenes to reveal himself by dying on a cross to save us. The reason is that to be "human-like", you've got to have the same capacities for free agency and sin, which means you'll find yourself in the same prison, unable to save yourself and separated from God. But I'm speculating.
Please don't use this as a basis to argue the case for "parallel Jesus's" in other universes. You'll be going far beyond the horizons of God's revealed Word. It's not on the agenda, as far as the Bible is concerned. You're better off understanding what he has said, before moving on to what he hasn't, and you seem to be stuck with this erroneous notion that the universe is inhabited with more "gods" than the unprecedented YHWH of Israel.