On October 8th, 1854 Brigham Young delivered a conference discourse in Salt Lake City. After making several preliminary remarks to the congregation he said,
“I think these preliminaries will satisfy me, and I feel prepared to take my text: it is the words of Jesus Christ, but where they are in the Bible I cannot tell you now, for I have not taken pains to look at them. I have had so much to do, that I have not read the Bible for many years. I used to be a bible student; I used to read and study it, but did not understand the spirit and meaning of it…. My clerks know how much time I have to read. It is difficult for me to snatch time enough even to eat my breakfast and supper, to say nothing of reading.”
Brigham Young then launched into what future LDS Prophet and President Wilford Woodruff described as “the greatest sermon that ever was delivered to the Latter-day Saints.” What follows are some bullet points and quotes from this Brigham Young conference discourse.
- God the father differs from human beings only in that he is immortal and incorruptible (conversely, humans are mortal and corruptible).
- God the father is the father of our flesh, “he being the founder of that natural machinery through which we have all obtained our bodies.”
- God the father has a grandfather and a great-grandfather.
- There are very many who have attained to the position of Gods, who are “gathering around them thrones,” and who have the power to “organize elements and make worlds.”
- Worlds are “from eternity to eternity…have always been in progress, and eternally will be.”
- Every world has an Adam and an Eve, and a first-born son who, if faithful, will be the Savior.
- Adam was made of the dust from a different earth than the one upon which we live.
- Adam is the father of our spirits. He lived and died on another earth with his wives and, because of his faithfulness and priesthood, he was resurrected (by someone who had already been resurrected) to immortality and eternal life.
- “…Father Adam was a resurrected being with his wives and posterity, and in the Celestial Kingdom they were crowned with glory, immortality and eternal lives, with thrones, principalities and powers, and it was said to him, ‘It is your right to organize the elements, and to your creations and posterity there shall be no end, but you shall add kingdom to kingdom and throne to throne, and still behold the vast eternity of unorganized matter.’ Adam, then, was a resurrected being. And I reckon our spirits and the spirits of all the human family were begotten by Adam and born of Eve. ‘How are we going to know this?’ I reckon it. And I reckon that Adam came into the Garden of Eden and did actually eat of the fruit that he, himself, planted.”
- “I tell you, when you see your father in the heavens you will see Adam; when you see your mother that bore your spirit you will see Mother Eve”
- “Hear it all ye ends of the earth: if ever you enter into the Kingdom of God it is because Joseph Smith let you go there. …No man or woman in this generation will get a resurrection and be crowned without Joseph Smith says so.”
These teachings of Brigham Young are not found in, or supported by, the Biblical text. Promoting unbiblical doctrines — heresy — is what happens when a spiritual leader can find no time to read and study the Word of God.
Through the prophet Isaiah, God pronounced a stern warning: “If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” (Isaiah 8:20, KJV). Brigham Young apparently missed (or forgot) that truth. Now that you know it, what will you do with it?
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Find a transcript of Brigham Young’s discourse at Brigham Young Addresses – Vol. 2, pages 130-146 (transcript pages [224] – [237]).
Here's a rule. If someone claims to be a prophet and he tells you of his marvelous revelations, his visions and visitations from supernatural beings and at the same time tells you not to depend on the Bible but on him, run don't walk away from him. People get taken in when they rely on their feelings and not on the foundation that has been laid by the prophets and apostles of the Lord. Jesus warned continually of this and yet over come with positive emotions, people don't listen to Jesus' warning.
Smith not only down graded the Bible but he also down-graded God. There is no salvation in Mormonism.
But falcon, don't you know that the teachings in the Bible are from dead prophets/apostles ?
Mormonism claims to have the "living" prophet , that makes him take priority over dead prophets
right? 🙂
ww
Hi all, sorry for the off-topic question, but how do you quote another user causing their text to indent and become italicized? Thanks!
I dont think anyone saw this question because the topic is down farther with new question above. But what you do is, you type, (<) One of the arrow brackets, not sure what they are called, then type out (blockquote) so it should look like this, (
Rick wrote:
Excellent, thank you!
I don't think the Bible is to be considered a historical document for the very same reason you don't think the Koran should be considered a historical document. I don't think you're going to convince me to believe in anything supernatural today and I don't think I could probably get a single person on this forum to even admit at the chance that a virgin-birth or a resurrection could have possibly been made up.
I read the article and I didn't find it compelling. Just because the bible says the resurrection happened is simply not good enough for me for the same reason I don't find stories in the Koran that assert Mohammad was a prophet to be convincing.
If the bible was absolutely clear on every point and give specific instructions on how to interpret it, then there wouldn't be thousands of other christian sects today either. Who's to say your interpretation of the bible is better than the other thousand interpretations people hold? BY clearly didn't even care if his beliefs matched the Bible, no mormons care because they believe anything their prophet says overrides the bible. To you this means BY is a fraud, to Mormons that argument is completely meaningless, to me I just see it as another evangelist making up stories to get members and a paycheck. All of my religious friends in different sects ALL say the same thing: that their church's interpretation is the correct one.
Agreed, mormonism does claim to be the only correct form of Christianity. I just think we shouldn't bash other religions for for making stuff up, because that is what all religion does. We simply disagree that the resurrection/virgin birth/water-to-wine stories/sightings-of-the-dead weren't also simply… made up.
Hi f_melo, I finished listening to the audio debate you linked. Have to agree with the DJ "Good Gravy" that Dr. Miller lost the debate. Miller was wishy washy and didn't clarify why he went back on his argument about why he initially claimed that Jesus should be considered a story. It was a superstition vs. superstition debate at the core with Miller asking the audience to "think prayerfully with me" and Martin going on about how we should only confine ourselves to the "facts and evidence" but then dishonestly quoting hearsay claims as facts themselves.
The debate consisted of the two going back and forth arguing over what Paul actually claimed. Did he claim Jesus actually rose from the dead or didn't he? After the debate was finished all we're left with is the claim itself: "Paul claimed Jesus was ressurrected literally and not as a metaphor." Ok, so now even if we can decide what the claim was, still there's no evidence for the claim except for the claim itself. Martin incorrectly stated additional claims as fact when citing that others saw Jesus. Those are not facts, they are stories written hundreds of years after the event. Saying something is a fact does not make it so. Martin said, "500 people saw him alive with infallible proof." Incorrect, what he should have said was there's a book that says that 500 people saw him alive.
My favorite part was at the end when Martin admits how his position is falsifiable and what that means if it is falsified. And I quote, "If the resurrection, which is the center of it all is up for grabs, why I think we can kick out the virgin birth on the grounds it was probably devolved from mythology, we can get rid of the trinity because it came from pagan sources, we can do away with the atonement because it was borrowed from the jews." Well said.
I understand. If the purpose of this board is to examine how mormon theology is in conflict with christian tenets, then I whole-heartedly agree with you. Mormonism clearly conflicts with every single christian sect completely and I sincerely believe that no mormon would even contest that point because they believe they can add/remove from previous scripture as needed and have done so and continue to do so. What I offered was my question of, if we can dismiss outright all mormon claims of divine revelation, why shouldn't we dismiss others biblical claims of revelation. I have gotten an answer to that question and the answer is: because mormon revelatory doctrine doesn't don't match up with the existing tenets stated in the bible. I disagree that we should presume the bible to be a historical document but I think everyone should be free to believe what they want.
I think the only middle ground both you and I and the rest of the members of this board can agree on is that mormon theology, islam theology, vishnu, thor, and horus. are all man-made. I simply go one step further and say that christian theology is also man-made even through jesus' corpse was missing and that the bible book states that people saw jesus alive after he died.
Thanks Rick, I will read up on that link and respond to this and your other posts soon, in full. Sorry you were called names in the other forum; that was rude and inconsiderate for him to do to you.
Soulure, you correctly noted what the purpose of this ministry is. You happen to
believe that the Bible is not a reliable source of history or even doctrine, a view
that neither the Christians or most Mormons would agree with. Hence you seem
to be subtly trying to change the playing field into what an atheist would feel more
comfortable with. Since this thread concerns the teachings of Brigham Young
and his position of prophet, it is important to note that Mormon leader Spencer
Kimball is on record saying that the Adam-god "theory" is a false doctrine because
it is not supported by the scriptures. We agree. This makes your position all but
irrelevant. Again, don't give up on God , as your experience is'nt new. ww
"I don't think the Bible is to be considered a historical document for the very same reason you don't think the Koran should be considered a historical document."
The Bible and the Koran are very different documents. The New Testaments are records done by eye witnesses and much of it has been verified outside of the Biblical record and scientifically the New Testament is regarded a historical document. Not only that but the New Testament is the ancient document with the most number of manuscript evidence of all ancient documents in mankind´s history. No other work of antiquity compares with it. If you don´t agree with that, then it´s solely based on your opinion.
"I don't think you're going to convince me to believe in anything supernatural today"
Agreed!
"Just because the bible says the resurrection happened is simply not good enough for me"
So maybe you should throw away all your books of ancient history as well, and you could also start arguing if a number of supposed historical characters actually existed.
"If the bible was absolutely clear on every point and give specific instructions on how to interpret it, then there wouldn't be thousands of other christian sects today either. Who's to say your interpretation of the bible is better than the other thousand interpretations people hold?"
I don´t claim to understand every single detail, but there are doctrines that are just as clear as they can get – those are the basic tenets of the Christian faith, and they are agreed upon throughout Christendom – the trinity is one example, the doctrine of total depravity/original sin, etc.
"All of my religious friends in different sects ALL say the same thing: that their church's interpretation is the correct one."
Ok, then answer me this, of those friends how many are the denominations that actually differ on the nature of God? Most things that are disputed in the Bible today don´t have much consequence in a Christian´s salvation – except for the new ones, mormonism, Jehovah´s witnesses and seventh-day adventists, all came around the same time exploiting the same ideas of personal revelation that allowed them to ignore 2.000 years of Church history and make up their own versions of it.
"I just think we shouldn't bash other religions for for making stuff up, because that is what all religion does."
That´s your opinion. I have solid reasons to believe in Christianity, but you think it´s all made up even though during this entire discussion you didn´t provide any argument, only your opinions. So, nothing to do here.
"Those are not facts, they are stories written hundreds of years after the event"
You´ve got to get your facts right – those "stories" weren´t written hundreds of years after the event at all.
"what he should have said was there's a book that says that 500 people saw him alive."
You´re right, you´d have to trust the author that made that claim and for that you´d have to consider the documents as historical documents.
Yet though you´d have to explain Christianity itself, where it was born from, etc. It´s not that simple.