In an exchange with a Mormon at the Mormon Coffee website, I concluded by asking my adversary if he followed God, or if he followed the law that governs God. You can find the full transcript here.
Though the theology is interesting, what concerns me more is the direction, or rather the two very different directions you can go in, depending on your response to the question.
Following God
To me, the direction of the Bible is clear, and unanimous. However you describe the journey of faith, the end-goal is union between the believer and God, and when we come to Him, we worship Him.
This is expressed in a number of ways. Ezekiel, for example, concludes his oracle by renaming the city where the people of God dwell “The LORD is there” (Ez 48:35).
In Revelation, John expands this idea. Not only is the city the place where God’s people dwell in intimate union with Him (Rev 22:3-4); it is presented as His bride (Rev 21:2). Just as the intimate, exclusive, loving relationship between bride and groom is the end-goal of their courtship, so the end-goal of the journey of faith is the consummation of the relationship between Christ and His Church. God’s desire is to dwell with His people, and their desire is to dwell with Him. That is why one calls out to the other, “come” (Rev 22:17).
If the union of the believer with God is the ultimate objective, then that union is characterized by the worship of God. It is not simply patting God on the back and saying “good job”; it is the total acknowledgement of God as He fully is, for example;
They lay their crowns before the throne and say: “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.” (Rev 4:10b-11)
Note that this worship focuses on God as the creator of all things , not just the tangible and visible, as Paul explains;
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. (Col 1:16)
Within this perspective, it is quite legitimate to consider the law as one of the “powers and authorities” in the “all things” that were created, whether it be the law of Moses or the law of gravity. The law, then, is created by God and has its being in Him, not the other way around.
I wonder if the theologians, who arranged the books of the Bible in their current order, deliberately placed the book of Psalms in the centre, so that that the centre of our theology will always be characterized by an outpouring of worship to God.
This also gives us a useful diagnostic; if your doctrines, principles and ordinances do not lead you to the kind worship of God that you see in Rev 4:10b-11 (and elsewhere in scripture), then they do not align with the Biblical perspective of God.
Following The Law That Governs God
In order to explore this idea, we need to move into terrain that is totally alien to the Biblical landscape.
Firstly, the subordination of the law to God is reversed, such that God is governed by something that is greater than Himself. God is no longer free, in an absolute sense, but is compelled to do things by some greater, external force.
In Christian circles, this concept creeps in under the guise of “God has to answer my prayers”, or “God has to forgive my sins”, as if there were something obligating God to do these things.
The idea that God is subordinate to a law is endemic in Mormonism. For example;
We accept the fact that God is the Supreme Intelligent Being in the universe. He has the greatest knowledge, the most perfect will, and the most infinite power of any person within the realm of our understanding. . . . Yet, if we accept the great law of eternal progression, we must accept the fact that there was a time when Deity was much less powerful than He is today. Then how did He become glorified and exalted and attain His present status of Godhood? In the first place, aeons ago, God undoubtedly took advantage of every opportunity to learn the laws of truth and as He became acquainted with each new verity He righteously obeyed it. From day to day He exerted His will vigorously, and as a result became thoroughly acquainted with the forces lying about Him. As he gained more knowledge through persistent effort and continuous industry, as well as through absolute obedience, His understanding of the universal laws continued to become more complete. Thus He grew in experience and continued to grow until He attained the status of Godhood. In other words, He became God by absolute obedience to all the eternal laws of the Gospel–by conforming His actions to all truth, and thereby became the author of eternal truth. Therefore, the road that the Eternal Father followed to Godhood was one of living at all times a dynamic, industrious, and completely righteous life. There is no other way to exaltation. Milton R Hunter.
According to Milton R Hunter, God begins his “progression” by understanding the universe in which he finds himself, then by his own efforts and obedience to the “eternal laws of the gospel”, worked his way up into glory. There’s plenty in Milton R Hunter’s statement that I profoundly disagree with (not least, the complete absence of a savior), but it is clear that God does not set the rules of the game. They are set for him by something greater than him – the “eternal laws of the gospel”.
What are these eternal laws, and where do we find them? Maybe they are written on some golden plates and buried under a hill in upstate New York? That would make a fascinating plot line for a film or a book.
Let’s say we find these “eternal laws”, and invoke them. Would we then be saying the Words of Creation? Can we master these words and then throw off our dependence on the God of the Judaeo-Christian tradition? However ineffective its methods for doing so, this is the end-goal of occultism.
Who determines what these “eternal laws” are? Are they kept secret such that they can only be revealed to the initiated few? Would it be in God’s interests to disclose them, given that his authority might depend on the fact that we can’t access them? If knowledge is power, then God’s power might only be effective as long as we remain ignorant. Who knows what would happen if we started to understand and assert our rights under these “eternal laws of the gospel”?
How does this affect our relationship with the God of the Bible? When He says, “I am the first and the last, apart from me there is no God” (Isaiah 44:6), do we just nod and smile while inwardly thinking, “for now, yes, but just you wait”. Even if our attitude to God is not so intolerant, the search for something beyond God betrays a desire to be independent of Him.
How does this affect our worship? If we cannot say, absolutely, “for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being” (Rev 4:11), what can we say? Are we limited to something like “You did the best you could, and we just hope that all your good efforts don’t get overturned by forces beyond your control”? Or perhaps we simply focus on ourselves with a kind of “You did the right thing. I’m going to do the right thing. I hope the right people notice, and I hope it works out OK”. These sentiments bear no resemblance to the magisterial expressions of worship found in the Bible.
Ultimately, though, if there is something greater than God, why bother with worshipping Him at all? To borrow an idiom from a London-based cop show; why deal with the monkey when you could be dealing with the organ-grinder?
Conclusion
The attempt to follow the law that governs God leads you on a path towards independence from God. You may be promised “all the Kingdoms of the world and their splendor” (Matt 4:8), or even the chance to rule entire planetary systems as if you were God. However these places will not be filled with God-worship and God will not be found in them.
If you follow God, then you have Him, and you need nothing else.
Thou art my portion, O LORD: I have said that I would keep thy words. (Psalm 119:57).
Which direction are you traveling in?
Post Script
I wrote this article soon after the Haitian earthquake. Skeptics and believers have mused about how a loving God could have allowed such a disaster to happen (e.g. the BBC article here). In reading a Christianity Today editorial I was struck by another aspect of the Alpha and Omega whom we casually refer to as God (Isaiah 44:6, Rev 1:8, Rev 22:13). It is this; God is there in the beginning, before even the laws were set in motion that culminated in the Haitian tragedy. This present evil, though real enough, will end, and after all things have ended, including the processes that yield human suffering, God is still there.
This is a great article, Martin!
One thing in particular stood out for me, mostly because I have started this year to read as much of the Bible as possible. I am reading 5 chapters of the OT and 5 of the NT as often as possible (I hesitate to commit to "every day" because I don't want it to feel like an obligation).
Revisiting Genesis in light of this article is interesting. Genesis 3:22, in particular: And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
It was this paragraph of yours that made me think of that verse: Who determines what these “eternal laws” are? Are they kept secret such that they can only be revealed to the initiated few? Would it be in God’s interests to disclose them, given that his authority might depend on the fact that we can’t access them? If knowledge is power, then God’s power might only be effective as long as we remain ignorant. Who knows what would happen if we started to understand and assert our rights under these “eternal laws of the gospel”?
It is obvious from the fall that God is upset that Adam and Eve have betrayed him. The most interesting thing, I think, with regards to Mormonism, is that it is the serpent that tempts Eve with "being like God" — God is displeased with this. In fact, God says (in the verse above, paraphrased and, *gasp* interpreted): I cannot allow man to become like me and be immortal and be a God.
Yet isn't this exactly what Mormonism teaches? That God was once a man and became exalted and therefore, so can you? So can you, in the words of Satan in Genesis 3: 4-5, become like/as God?
How anyone can read the fall and believe that God wishes us to become gods is out of my logical grasp. It is Satan, and not God, who teaches eternal progression. Period.
I always enjoy your commentary Martin. You've laid out a very stark contrast between the goals of life for a Christian and the goals of life for a mormon. I wonder how many mormons will actually pause and wonder about dealing with the organ-grinder.
God, not the gods, is not governed by laws, he is governed by His character. We have limited understanding of God's attributes because we are not Him. We only know about Him, what He has offered to share with us.
I've had a lot of exposure, over the years, to the Word-Faith form of Pentecostal religion. With these folks, their faith becomes sovereign. They have discovered, they feel, the laws that govern how things work. In-other-words, a person reads the Bible and discovers promises (?) then claiming these promises in faith can garner an end result for the person professing the positive confession. The formula is: knowledge of the Word of God, speaking that Word out loud in faith continuing to believe that the end result desired will be manifested, and through perseverance it will happen. I always thought it was like vending machine religion. Pick your item, drop in the correct amount of money, push the button and out the slot comes the goodie. Some of these folks even got into talking about what was "legal" and "illegal" as far as these formulas were concerned. There was speculation by at least one of the more popular promoter of this doctrine was getting his toes up to the line speculating that men were becoming little gods with their ability to create things spiritually.
The main thing that separates Christian theology from Mormon belief structure is the nature of God. I sense that Mormons think that they are tapping into these laws like (the laws) of physics or some other science only with Mormons, it's the laws governing progressing to the level of a deity. So for Mormons it's a case of following the formula and popping out the other side as a shinny new version of their former self with a new god pedigree.
Just a few questions to understand your perspective.
You say that God cannot lie, as it also states in the Bible. Who/what set that ‘rule’ for Him? Himself or someone/something else? Who/what ‘polices’ that rule? What happens if God does tell a lie? If He cannot tell a lie, does that mean He is not omnipotent – ie cannot do everything? Or is it a case of He can lie but just decides not to? If it is the second case, then what is to stop Him from lying when He feels it necessary? Is the ‘not able to lie ’ clause only for this world/creation and He is able to lie for other worlds/creations He has created, is creating and will create (for those who believe that there is more than this world)?
How about breaking a promise? God cannot do that according to the Bible. Again, who/what set that rule for Him?
I know the OP and other posters have said that it’s His nature, but still, who/what decided His nature – Himself or someone/something else? If He is not created and has been in existence forever in the form that you believe, then how did His nature come about? Is His nature the way it is now because of all the things He experienced before creating this world? Or is it just the way He decided to be when He created this world – ie He could have been a lying, cheating tyrant if He wanted to?
Like I said, just want to understand your perspective, I am not trying to be facetious with these questions.
As far as the OP goes – we believe that there is a law that governs God and if He breaks that law (eg if He lied) then He would cease to be God and all of His creations would cease to be. But because He is omnipotent, He has the ability to lie, He just chooses not to because it is not in His nature.
Ah, Ralph…….thanks for your contribution it's very enlightening. It gives me more insights into how Mormons think and process information.
Are all of your gods subject to the same rules or are the gods that have progressed to a higher state of enlightenment and knowledge (as noted by BY) subject to a different set of laws, rules and regulations. When the gods meet in their conferences, do they have an opportunity to set and change the rules or are they limited in power? Who set the rules for your gods? Did the grandfather god or great grandfather god establish them? Does each god get to set the rules for his own planets and worlds that he rules?
You see Ralph, God is the beginning and the end. He is self-contained and self-sufficient. He's sovereign. He IS the rules and therefore He rules! It's called being omnipotent.
That does not answer the question Falcon.
Who/what determined that God cannot lie – Himself or someone/something else? Or is it a case of He can lie but chooses not to? If He cannot lie, fullstop, then that means He is not omnipotent as then there is something He cannot do. If He can lie then what happens – ie who/what polices this 'rule'? If He made the rule and He polices Himself then that means He can break the rule and get away with it and we'd be none the wiser and none the better for it wouldn't it?
Ralph, sometimes I wonder if Mormons like yourself do have a deep inner hope that Almighty God
slipped up somewhere along the way of striving to keep all the laws that He had to keep in
order to arrive at where He is now , because that helps validate your testimony of believing you'll be
worshiped one day as an Almighty God yourself. When we read the Bible , do we really get the same
picture of God as how Milton Hunter describes Him ? Honestly, do we ? Why do Mormon prophets
and apostles sound so different from the prophets/apostles in scripture ?
Martin, thanks for a great article. Lots of things to ponder about how great is the True and Living God .
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I think this is evidence of a very, very different way of thinking, especially theologically.
See, the God I worship, the God of the Bible, is, and was, and always will be. He is the alpha and the omega. The beginning and the end. He is the first, the last, the in-between. He is in all things and created all things. All things were created by Him.
The problem is that you're trying to confine God into a little box. You're using our mortal, flawed, human minds to try and understand God. But that's the thing. We are not God. We never will be God. We never CAN be God. God is God and we are imperfect, flawed, unworthy humans.
This is one of the things I've seen time and again with Mormons — you seem to want to deal with faith and with God logically. God had to once be a man like the rest of us because what else would he have been? And if God were a man, then we must be able to become gods. But that's the thing about faith — it's one of the greatest things that separate a Mormon from a Christian — God is God. He was in the beginning, is now, and will be in the end. He is unchanging. He is God.
I have faith in a God that existed before creation as a God, not as a man. It is faith that allows me to believe this, not logic or reason. Logic and reason come into play regarding other aspects of my faith, but that is because God created us with intelligence, with brains, allowing us to think and feel for ourselves. He knows we are this way; this is why there is so much archaeological and historical and documented evidence for the Bible, for the people, places, and events therein. He gives us evidence because he created us this way. But it is faith that believes He is from everlasting to everlasting.
As far as answering your question, since you probably don't think that I did, here it is: God is not governed by any law or rule. God is God. He is unchanging, from everlasting to everlasting, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. He was, he is, he will always be. He created us, and he put down is law for us because he had to. After the Fall, when Adam and Eve betrayed God and ate of the fruit from the tree of knowledge, law came into existence. Before that apple-eating, there was no need for the law. God Himself has no need for the law.
But you know what's the greatest thing? Even after the Fall, after God set down His law among His people and His people disobeyed, God did not give up. No, instead God came down to earth and walked among us. He sent His son, Jesus Christ, to save all of us, to save us from our sins and be granted eternal life. Even though God sees that we do not always follow His law, that we sin, that we stray, that we forsake him, He does not turn his back on us.
If even a slight part of me believed at all, that my God is the kind of God you described above, is a God who will deceive and lie and break his own laws, then what kind of God is that? Why bother? Why have faith in a God like that?
My question to you is: if you believe God was once a man and was exalted, why worship Him? Why give your worship and praise (as so much of the book of Psalms does, let alone so much more in the Bible) to this God when there are others? When you could be giving your worship to, say, Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, or other Mormons who I'm assuming you believe achieved exaltation and eternal progression? Why worship this God at all when there are so many more, maybe even some of your deceased relatives?
My God is the Alpha and the Omega. He is everlasting to everlasting. He is, was, and always will be. He is One God, now and Forever. Amen.
Ralph,
Once again you demonstrate your twisted thinking that is characteristically Mormon in nature. Your also totally illogical. Your charging that in order to be omnipotent, God must be able to lie. Who says? It's a flawed premise. The sinful man that you regard as god was a murderer, an adulterer, a fornicator, a liar and a thief. I know this because the Bible says that if you've committed one sin you are guilty of the whole law.
God is, by His nature, Holy. The plot of hell is to attack God, blaspheme Him and make Him small and of little repute. Has your arrogance and pride no limits Ralph?
Ralph, your questioning only makes sense if you are judging God with human logic, according to the human way of doing things…
"what polices this 'rule'?"
What kind o joke is that? You can´t expect us to take you seriously… What polices your God? Who enforces the "eternal laws" of the Gospel? Where is the "intelligences" police? Are there cameras monitoring God, or is it like Harry Potter that gets caught automatically for disobeying rules by some magic spells? Does he have a microchip implanted in his wrist? Who monitors the beings monitoring? Who guarantees there are no holes in the law, can gods find ways to work around the laws? What would happen then?
Cleon Skousen in his Meaning of the Atonement lecture said, in that secretive tone, that the first presidency didn´t allow him to teach that if god disobeyed the laws he would cease to be god an all his creation would return to being unorganized space dust – seriously. Listen to that lecture again, and prove me wrong. So, all God has to do to keep people from outer darkness is to give up his god license. Will he do this ultimate sacrifice for his beloved children that will eternally suffer in outer darkness otherwise?
Ralph is there a black market of god licenses? If there´s no monitoring there might be, especially with Lucifer running around all free. Speaking of Lucifer, what laws govern Lucifer? Can he be good, or is he evil because he chooses to be evil? Could god give him another chance, i mean, if the eternal laws permit it he could get a body when the Holy Ghost gets his turn, don´t you agree?
Sorry for the sarcasm… my sinful flesh didn´t resist you asking for it.
"He became God by absolute obedience to all the eternal laws of the Gospel"
Mormons, bad news!!!!! Are you absolutely obedient to ALL eternal laws of the "Badspel"(that´s Gospel, sorry – sorry also for mangling that – it´s supposed to be the opposite of Gospel, if anyone didn´t notice).
How deluded can you be to even consider something like that! Not even Thomas Monson has his file 100% clean! Does that guy even understand what he is saying, because he is condemning himself.
"–by conforming His actions to all truth, and thereby became the author of eternal truth."
How can you become the author of something that precedes you? Is that too deep for me to get it?
"Therefore, the road that the Eternal Father followed to Godhood was one of living at all times a dynamic, industrious, and completely righteous life. There is no other way to exaltation."
You just described Freemasonry ideals and values! There´s a masonic temple around here that has a statue of a man shaping himself with a hammer and a chisel. That´s the exact occult concept described in that sentence
"Can we master these words and then throw off our dependence on the God of the Judaeo-Christian tradition? However ineffective its methods for doing so, this is the end-goal of occultism."
Martin, great association, and great article!
I think we may all have the way God works all wrong. God and the law he abides by are so intertwined that we would see them as one. He has created this planet as well as the beings on with flaws and He is seeing how we respond. This idea may not be entirely correct but there may be some truth to it.
Post post script…
As readers may well have deduced, I wrote this piece almost exactly a year ago when Haiti had just suffered it's devastating earthquake. I sent it to MRM but had forgot all about it until Aaron emailed me recently to ask if he could post it here at MC. I didn't know exactly when it would get posted, until I logged in this evening.
Reading it again in my current circumstances, I find myself surprised at my original post script. I'm currently at home (safely) having left the office early as my home town, Brisbane, prepares for the worst floods it has ever experienced. Tragically, a few people have already died in the floods, and although the damage to property will be immense, the magnitude of this disaster will be nothing like Haiti's in terms of the loss of human life. See here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-1215… (n.b. our home is not one of those that are at risk). Still, this is an "official" disaster.
I hope we don't lose power and communications through the next few days, so I can respond to some of your posts.
Now who would attempt to come up with a paradox to prove that God isn't omnipotent? Who has skin in that game? It would be someone with a Luciferian attitude of pride. That pride is what the Bible tells us brought Lucifer down. I've often listed here the areas that cults attack the Gospel. One of course is the nature and person of Jesus Christ and his atoning work on the cross. Jesus is God. As God, with His sinless perfection, He was the only one qualified to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. Without the perfect sacrifice there is no forgiveness of sins and no hope for mankind. The devil would like people to think that they can reach sinless perfection and the status of a deity based on their working of rituals and conformity to a set of behavioral standards. In that way, man is not dependent totally on God for His salvation.
This idea that there are a set of rules in the universe that take precedent over an omnipotent God is just more of man's folly and (man's) attempt to diminish God and elevate himself.
Ralph, to directly answer your question – God cannot lie because it is part of who He is.
Hebrews 6:18: “[I]t is impossible for God to lie.”
Titus 1:2: “[I]n hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began.”
The second part of your statement – regarding not being omnipotent – is nothing other than the standard flawed omnipotent paradox.
Finally, breaking His own rules? Really now Ralph, do you not read the bible? God is holy and there is no shadow of sin in Him. If God could sin and 'get away with it' He would have no moral standing to judge humanity for sin He Himself committed. But then if you are enspousing the mormon view of God, then it displays a very low concept of God's character.
The one who taunts God is Satan. Jesus was tempted by the devil. In chapter 4 of Matthew starting with verse 3 Satan says to Jesus "If you are the Son of God command that these stones become bread." In verse 6 Satan says again, "If you are the Son of God throw yourself down…" Finally the devil tells Jesus he'll give him all this 'stuff' if He, Jesus, will worship him, the devil.
When Jesus was crucified, it wasn't good enough for some in the crowd to have witnessed His being demeaned, humiliated and tortured, they had to taunt Him. They screamed, "If you are the Son of God come down from the cross." Mormons, in order to be able to satisfy their own desires and belief that they will become gods, do also taunt and challenge God. Mormons must also demean God's Word the Bible and its revelation of Him. Mormons substitute a series of "laws" or "universal rules" in order to create a god that is not omnipotent but one that must submit himself to a form of authority.
The Mormon narrative is not just nonsense, but it is blasphemy, and they revel in it. They suppose they are challenging orthodox Christian beliefs, but they are challenging God. What fools these people are. How deluded, self-serving and prideful.
Martin, I am thinking and praying for you and everyone in the path of these floods. Be safe.
"I think we may all have the way God works all wrong."
Back that with the scriptures, please.
"He has created this planet as well as the beings on with flaws"
He created us perfect. The fall of Adam and Eve corrupted God´s perfect creation;
To further what f_melo said in reply —
Before we start arguing that Adam and Eve's fall was because they were imperfect and thus God didn't create us as perfect, let me say that it was Satan, in the form of a serpent, that corrupted perfect humanity. Adam and Eve gave into temptation. What temptation?
Satan deceived them by telling them they could be as God. What does Mormonism teach? That we can be as God.
Praying for you, your family, and your neighbors, Martin. May God's tender care see you all through.
Fmelo,
If you reread my original post I said exactly the same thing as Cleon Skousen (never heard of him by the way) – that if God disobeyed any of the laws He would cease to be God and all His creations would cease to be. That is what I have been taught and I have seen it written down somewhere in one of our church manuals. So I don’t know why Cleon said he was not allowed to teach it.
God’s ultimate purpose is to exalt as many of His children as He can. That then answers your question about why doesn’t He just break a law and cease to be God. It is not His purpose to stop the suffering of His children in outer darkness, but to exalt as many as possible.
Is there a ‘black market’? Of course not and you know it. If there was I’d be the first in line and I wouldn’t tell anyone either. If you really learned the church doctrine properly, then you can answer all of the questions you put into the second last paragraph. Lucifer had his chance and blew it. He did not change when the deadline came up so there are no more chances for him now. He can choose to be good, it is within his nature, but because of how things panned out in the pre-mortal existence, he is most likely not going to anyway. But no, there are no more chances for him and so I don’t agree with your question ” Could god give him another chance, i mean, if the eternal laws permit it he could get a body when the Holy Ghost gets his turn, don´t you agree?”
Sarcasm? What sarcasm?
Ralph wrote
I'd like to respond to Ralph on two fronts; firstly that the underlying premise of this argument is flawed because it is upside-down; secondly that this argument actually deals a fatal blow to the Mormon "Gospel" (as preached by Lorenzo Snow and company).
Upside-down
What I mean by upside-down is the starting point for Ralph's exploration of the nature of God is to look at the created universe and extrapolate from there. I think this is fairly common among Mormons (and other religious people) who say, perhaps unconsciously, "God must be like me. There was a time when I was not what I am today and I became what I am, therefore God must have 'become' what He is through some similar process."
(The worst example of could be Joseph Smith, who seems to have said to himself one day "I've got a bevy of females for my personal recreation and procreation, so God must also have a bevy of females for the same purposes")
This view might be supported by an isolated reading of Romans 1:20 and Hebrews 1:4 and Hebrews 5:9. However, in Romans, Paul speaks about God's "…eternal power…" and Hebrews speaks about Christ "putting on" his role as the divinely appointed mediator between man and God, much as one would assume sovereignty of Kingdom by "putting on" a crown (the person isn't changed, rather he or she is recognized and anointed for the task). So, these verses have to be interpreted in a particular way to fit the theory. On the other hand, the Bible is replete with verses that explicitly and implicitly state that God has always been what He is and there never was a time when He was less than what He is now, nor will there be a time when He will be more than He is now.
Prime examples are Isaiah 43:10-13 and Malachi 3:6. The logic behind these verses is well worth noting; God promises security in His salvation because there is nothing and no one who is greater than Him, who would otherwise threaten to reverse His ability to save.
Other posters have commented on the Alpha and Omega.
There's also the name of God (YHWH), and I have added an entry to my blog on the subject here – http://martinofbrisbane.blogspot.com/2011/01/name….
The reason I believe Ralph's logic is upside-down is that it starts with the creation and tries to make God fit accordingly; for example – all things, including God, have become what they are.
In response, the Biblical view maintains that God is unique in this respect because He is the only "being" (if we can even call Him as such) that has not "become" what He is. The creation and all the laws that govern it "fit" within God, not the other way round. Also, there is only room for One God. If there were two, then one would have to precede (be "greater than") the other, and the Bible is pretty adamant that this is not the case.
It's also upside-down because it doesn't start with the Bible, but tries to fit the Biblical ideas into naturalistic observations. That may be acceptable for atheism or other religions, but it is not acceptable for a movement that claims to believe the Bible as the "Word of God" (8AoF).
I suggest the "right way round" for Ralph would be to try to understand the Biblical view, and then using this as the starting point on his understanding of the nature of God, which could then take into account his naturalistic observations.
…ctd…
…ctd…
Fatal blow to the Mormon "Gospel"
I'm thinking of Lorenzo Snow's famous couplet
The "good" news that this message presents is that we can become God. The reason is simple – God was once like us. In other words, if he found a way to get himself exalted, then so can we.
This sounds pretty attractive until you consider the problem of sin. We are sinners (1 John 1:8). Does the fact disqualify us from entering into the path that God took for his exaltation? If it does, then Lorenzo Snow's "Good news" has nothing to offer us – the way is already closed to us. If it doesn't, then was God once a sinner, just like us?
Aaron has blogged extensively on the mental contortions you have to go through to make the Mormon view work, so I won't rehash the discussion here. However, it does have a bearing on Ralph's postulation on whether God could be a lying cheating tyrant. The answer is that he very well could be (and there will be nothing we can do about it), especially if he managed to suppress his lying-cheating traits at the crucial steps in his journey into Godhood.
Could God have lied himself into his "promotion"? Well, we have accounts of people who have successfully lied their way into Temple Ceremonies, and these are supposed to be the "way" to exaltation (not just a re-enactment, as I understand), so, theoretically, the answer is yes.
For all we know, the Bible's claims to a good, loving and truthful God could be nothing but his own propaganda, designed to keep us in servitude and ignorance.
Of course, Mormons will appeal to the "greater" laws that govern the gods. But then, why bother with these "gods" at all? Why not just bypass them and get on with the job of our own exaltation once we know what these "laws" are? The LDS Leadership claims to know what these "laws" are, so it should be a simple matter of asking them if we want to find out. The answer, as I hoped to explain in the OP, lies in the answer to the question "where do you want your religion to take you?"
Or, even better, "where does God want my religion to take me?"
to f melo–
You are right it was not until physical and spiritual death came that imperfection arose.
to sarah–
God said before he takes abite out the tree of life and becomes as one of us- I am sorry I am doing this from memory but there were two trees one the knowledge of good and evil and the other the tree of life.
I believe He has a perfect plan for us. To Him, we are not flawed. We are perfect in Him. He is not waiting for us to trip, to test us. We are His forgiven children and He wants the Best for us. Its Radical and true. See The Lutheran Difference – Videos 1-4. You Tube. He cannot love us any more than He does at this very moment.
Falcon, reading your post brought this scripture to mind:
Luke 14:7-11 "And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them, When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him; And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room. But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
That fills my heart with grief, because that´s exactly what is going to happen with those in that great and final judgement who will face God with that attitude that they have earned the right to become a god by obedience to arbitrary man-made rules of outward righteousness. In that moment that scripture is going to be fulfilled yet again and God will destroy their huge pride and show them how they´re nothing before Him.
"This idea that there are a set of rules in the universe that take precedent over an omnipotent God is just more of man's folly and (man's) attempt to diminish God and elevate himself"
That also sounds new-age-ish. Remember also how Moroni and other "spiritual beings" like Paul, Nephi, etc. appeared to Joseph Smith to tutor him? That sounds a lot like those New Age ascended masters that come back to tutor their apprentices and channel their messages through them. Creepy!
You're right regarding the "new-age-ish" aspects of this "rules and laws of the universe" by which the Mormon gods are subject. In Mormonism, the laws become sovereign. We also see this in the book "The Secret". Oprah made a big deal out of this. The basic premise is that we control events by controlling our thoughts. Now there's always a grain of truth in any of these philosophies and principles. So goes it with the "word-faith", "positive confession", "positive mental attitude", "psycho-cybernetics", "visualization", "autogenics", and on and on. By being positive and imagining a favorable outcome a person can have an effect on what happens through their action. However some of these folks get to the point where they think they can conjure up a parking spot on a busy street by thinking positively about it and seeing it in their minds; imagining it.
Smith tapped heavily into the "third eye" which allows people to see into the spirit world. Martin Harris was having all sorts of visions and aperrations and was seen as pretty unstable. That was the whole concept behind Smith's conjuring with his magic rock. So when people buy into Smith's stories, they've then taken themselves down the road to a whole different kind of reality and point of view of how the universe is governed. I'm talking about the spiritual universe not the physical universe.
Mormons have, in a sense, a ranking of their gods because of the progressive nature of the process. BY insisted that the gods were being exposed to more and more truth as they progressed. His prophetic insights on this were disputed by other "prophets" so it would seem that the laws and rules of the universe will be different depending which Mormon prophet's point of view is popular at any given time.
As far as I see it, these early Mormon prophets and leaders got way overly impressed with themselves and were grab bagging whatever thought flowed through their mind at any given time and hence became their orthodox doctrine for that season.
Mormons would do well to discover God but that's way too conventional and would mean they'd have to give up their hopes of becoming gods and recognize God. Their pride and emotional investment in Mormonism will prevent that from happening.
"How deluded, self-serving and prideful"
The amount of pride i´ve seen in members of the Church is something rare to see in any regular Christian in general. Believe it or not i´ve heard people say that Joseph Smith atoned for his sins when he gave his life for the cause in Carthage Jail. I´ve heard people suggesting the possibility of higher beings above Heavenly Father and the list of blasphemies goes on and on.
Other examples of that pathological satanic pride that is the fruit of mormonism:
"Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith." – BY
"They will, by-and-by, be a thousand times more thankful for such a man as Joseph Smith, junior, than it is possible for them to be for any earthly good whatever." – BY
" The Lord had his eye upon him, and upon his father, and upon his father's father, and upon their progenitors clear back to Abraham, and from Abraham to the flood, from the flood to Enoch, and, from Enoch to Adam. He has watched that family and that blood as it has circulated from its fountain to the birth of that man. He was foreordained in eternity to preside over this last dispensation, as much so as Pharaoh was foreordained to be a wicked man, or as was Jesus to be the Saviour of the world because he was the oldest son in the family." -BY
'In the 135th section of the Doctrine and Covenants we read the words of John Taylor concerning the Prophet Joseph: “Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.” '
How many times i´ve seen mormons getting upset because people would accuse them of worshiping Joseph Smith – can they blame them, especially after reading those quotes?
As i was exiting the Church someone challenged me to bear my testimony. I said that i´d only bear a testimony that was exclusively about Christ. The person replied that "Christ was not enought, it had to have Joseph Smith because thanks to him we have the gospel restored and its blessings".
It´s not thanks to Christ, it´s thanks to Joseph. The first thing the missionaries talk about is not that we are sinners in need of a Savior, but of Joseph Smith. Mormons worship Joseph Smith because he flattered them into believing men are gods and they all can become gods if they follow him – Joseph did to those people the exact same thing Satan did to Eve in the Garden, and those people fell for it just the same. May God open their eyes through these and other efforts that they may repent and turn the hearts to Jesus, not the one who provides the way, but THE WAY itself!
" BY insisted that the gods were being exposed to more and more truth as they progressed"
That being the case, logic implies that the first gods are the most advanced ones. Yet it would seem absurd that those higher progressed gods wouldn´t share their new discoveries with the new comers. Would they let the new ones discover basic things for themselves without helping them out?
If they don´t share info. up there, that means there could be, according to that theology, higher beings in more advanced planets somewhere in the universe. Human beings 5.0 or 10.0, if you consider how long those gods have been around. Do gods progress only intellectually, or could they progress physically as well? Because then they could discover a way to create things out of nothing and ditch those controlling intelligences. Maybe also there is a god movement trying to pass a law that says women can be gods by themselves and hold the priesthood, wouldn´t that be cool. Then they could fight to see who gets to control the council of gods – oops, that´s starting to sound more and more like Greek Mythology.
What a mess!
Just listened to Heart of the Matter last episode of 2010, Zion. (hotm.tv) Thought I heard something about Joseph Smith being baptized by John the Baptist or something about Peter. Incredulous.
They say John the Baptist came back to give the the Aaronic Priesthood – according to the it is only through that authority that someone can baptize with water.
Peter, James and John came back to give them the Melchizedek Priesthood, the authority necessary for people to be able to be exalted.
I see where you are going. Perhaps this is a simpler comparison. The clay pot viewing its creator as another clay pot. . . . .
clyde wrote
clyde,
Let me stretch you here.
In my OP, I tried to present the Biblical perspective, which says that God is not governed by a higher law. There is no higher law that works automatically to regulate God's behavior and (as ably noted by falcon and others) there is no "god police" to stop the "gods" from misbehaving.
God is answerable only to Himself. This should be self-evident from Hebrews 6:13-16
Here, the author is saying that God has made an unchanging promise to Abraham, but note that God is unable to "seal" this promise by swearing on someone, or something, greater than Himself, so He "swears by himself".
To get an idea of the importance of "swearing by something greater than yourself", see Matthew 23:16-22. The problem with the Pharisees here was that they argued that an oath that was "sealed" by a "lesser" thing was somehow less binding that an oath that was "sealed" by a "greater" thing. It was a con, of course, and Jesus condemns them for it.
So, God is not answerable to anything greater than Himself, not even a "law". He can, and does, do exactly what He pleases. There is nothing else telling Him what to do other than Himself.
If you think God is a capricious, lying despot, that should frighten the life out of you. The Good News is that He isn't, and He has proven His character to us through His self-revelation in His Son.
Paul summarizes this God-character well in Philippians 2:5-11
clyde also wrote
Clyde,
Let me stretch you again, this time on the creation of evil (something that some other posts have touched upon). I might seem like I'm taking a tortuous route to take to get there, but please bear with me.
Here's my underlying premise; God was there in the beginning and everything proceeds from Him (Gen 1:1, John 1:1 etc). The Creation, and everything in it, flows from the nature and character of God (because there is nothing higher than God to tell him what to do).
As evil is a really tricky subject, I'll use one of it's opposites as a proxy – truthfulness, and I'll take it as axiomatic that God is truthful.
Now, consider the statement "God is good because He is truthful". There's a problem with this because it attempts to measure or assess God by something that is "greater" than God, and the Biblical perspective says that that is impossible. It's upside-down.
It would be better to say that "truthfulness is good because it is a God-like characteristic". This, at least, restores the right order between the Creator and the Creature. It also holds true for all other virtues.
This might seem like empty, esoteric theologizing, but consider this application; we manifest the character and nature of God when we behave virtuously and in doing so, we bring the Kingdom of Heaven to earth.
On a different tack, consider this application; truthfulness is not a created "thing". It's actually a quality of God's character, which is eternal and unchanging. So, we can't talk about the "creation" of truthfulness – it was, is, and will be always there in the "Alpha and Omega" that we call "God".
Similarly, "evil" is not a created "thing", so we can't talk about the creation of evil either. The difference is that evil is not a quality of God's character. It actually comes about because we (who are not God) have decided to behave in a way that is inconsistent with God's character (and this puts us at enmity with Him, each other and the rest of creation). One intriguing inference from this perspective is that though "good" is enduring and eternal (because it is an intrinsic characteristic of God), "evil" is transitory and passing (because God is there after all things have ended).
Of course, people have been debating this stuff since the beginning of time. However, what I hope to show you is a radically different perspective – one that starts with God and views the created order from that viewpoint. The least I could say about it is that it is consistent with the Biblical perspective, and if you subscribe to any movement that claims to take the Bible seriously, I suggest that you should do your best to understand it.
Martin in Brisbane –
Just wanted you to know thinking about you in St. Louis, Missouri. Listening to the radio, I was surpised yesterday to hear of Brisbane's news alert / updates at the 'breaking hour' on our talk radio. Washing dishes thinking, 'Hey, that's our Martin in Brisbane.' Small world. Be careful. Sorry to hear of all the trouble and fatalities and damage.
Yes.
I had a similar feeling while reading Francis Chan's Crazylove.
God wants the best for us. If he didn't, why would He have sent Jesus Christ to die for us? I mean, God seriously loves up THAT MUCH that He would make that sacrifice. That's insane, isn't it? He doesn't WANT us to fail; he knows we are flawed. But in those flaws, God sees perfection.
He didn't say, you're flawed, now prove yourself worthy (as the Mormon church teaches). Now, God said, this is my Son, in Whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him. And John 3:16 is the best illustration. God loves us so much that he didn't send us a list of hurdles to jump to become worthy. No, he loves us so much that he sent his son to die for us.
I just can't understand anything else.
Martin, you always say things so much better than I do! Thank you.
Verne,
LOL, I really like your explanation. Short and sweet. It took you half a dozen words to sum up what I had been clumsily trying to explain over several paragraphs.
Sharon, Sarah and others,
Many, many thanks for your messages of support. Thankfully we are, quite literally, high and dry. I got back to work today and my wife and other volunteers from church helped clean up one of the homes that had been affected. My wife described this house like someone has spread a layer of ganache over the whole of the ground floor (but not as tasty). We've offered accommodation and help to anyone who needs it, but no-one has taken us up on the accommodation as yet.
In Brisbane alone, some 30,000 homes have been affected. Some have just had water in the yard and electricity cut off, others were flooded over their roofs. Many other towns and cities have been affected. The worst of it is that 15 people have been confirmed dead from flash flooding. The best of it is that there's a great sense of solidarity here, with most people saying that all they lost was their property. It's a mess, but it's not Brazil.
There's a fair summary here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12188293), but the BBC's normally excellent standards of reporting have slipped on some of the facts and figures.
Ralph stated:
Just a few questions to understand your perspective.
You say that God cannot lie, as it also states in the Bible. Who/what set that ‘rule’ for Him? Himself or someone/something else? Who/what ‘polices’ that rule? What happens if God does tell a lie? If He cannot tell a lie, does that mean He is not omnipotent – ie cannot do everything? Or is it a case of He can lie but just decides not to? If it is the second case, then what is to stop Him from lying when He feels it necessary? Is the ‘not able to lie ’ clause only for this world/creation and He is able to lie for other worlds/creations He has created, is creating and will create (for those who believe that there is more than this world)?
How about breaking a promise? God cannot do that according to the Bible. Again, who/what set that rule for Him?
I know the OP and other posters have said that it’s His nature, but still, who/what decided His nature – Himself or someone/something else? If He is not created and has been in existence forever in the form that you believe, then how did His nature come about? Is His nature the way it is now because of all the things He experienced before creating this world? Or is it just the way He decided to be when He created this world – ie He could have been a lying, cheating tyrant if He wanted to?
Like I said, just want to understand your perspective, I am not trying to be facetious with these questions.
As far as the OP goes – we believe that there is a law that governs God and if He breaks that law (eg if He lied) then He would cease to be God and all of His creations would cease to be. But because He is omnipotent, He has the ability to lie, He just chooses not to because it is not in His nature.
Ralph,
From AudioEnglish.net – NATURE (noun) The noun NATURE has 5 senses: 1. the essential qualities or characteristics by which something is recognized
From http://www.thefreedictionary.com – es·sence (sns) n. 1. The intrinsic or indispensable properties that serve to characterize or identify something.
Numbers 23:19, NKJV – 19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
Psalm 19:9, NKJV – The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
Psalm 33:4, NKJV – For the word of the Lord is right; and all his works are done in truth.
Psalm 90:2-4, NKJV – 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever You had formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. 3 For I proclaim the name of the LORD: Ascribe greatness to our God. 4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.
Jesus (Emmanuel, God with us) came to us with this same nature.
John 1:14, NKJV – And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
2 Corinthians 5:21, NKJV – For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Hebrew 4:15 says, "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are – yet was without sin."
Jesus stated, unmistakably, that He was God (John 8:58, NKJV – Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”/ John 14:9, NKJV …He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?)
Jesus said of Himself, as well, in John 14:6,…“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Satan's nature is also described by Jesus in the following verse.
John 8:44 – "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies.
Jesus (Emmanuel, God with us) is the way, the truth, and the life.
Satan is a murderer, a liar, and the father of lies.
NKJV, copyright 1982, Thomas Nelson, Inc.