I talked to the missionaries and they asked me to read the Book of Mormon (BOM), especially Moroni 10:4 and pray about it. They were so excited that I actually agreed to read the book, I couldn’t let them down. Besides, they said that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was the one true church on earth today. If it really is true, I needed to know about it. I decided to read the last chapter first, Moroni 10 because they had already pointed out verse 4. Sounded good, until I got to 10:32, I was a little concerned with what it said, but I decided to read the introduction.
The intro says that Joseph Smith told the brethren that the BOM is the “most correct book on earth and people will get closer to God by reading it than any other book.” Wow, I really wanted to know God, so I decided to read the entire book. It’s written in King’s English, just like my King James Bible so it took a little getting used to, but I managed. I didn’t know the Hebrews in Egypt knew 17th century English, but I had faith and the missionaries were so darn eager for me to read it.
It didn’t take me long to get to 1 Nephi 3:7. It says that God will not give me a commandment that I can’t keep. Really? I know that I can’t keep every commandment every day. I started thinking that I wasn’t worthy enough for God. I hoped that there would be some way to get closer to God because I was really struggling with sin. I kept reading.
Soon, I got to 1 Nephi 13 and 14 and learned about the great abominable church and that there were only two churches on the earth, the church of the Lamb of God and the church of the Devil. The missionaries already told me that the LDS church was the one true church, so I knew what the Lamb of God church was. I grew up Catholic and I knew that the Catholic Church wasn’t my favorite church, but it says that everyone that is a member of any other church is of the Devil. I don’t think that I am of the Devil and I don’t think that my family and friends are of the Devil. That sounded pretty harsh for a loving God. I continued to read.
I read about the trip that the family of Lehi took to the Americas and the trials and tribulations that followed them. I read 2 Nephi 9:27 and it says woe to me for my awful state. I transgress commandments. Transgress means sin. That is why I needed to find God, I am a sinner and the BOM says woe to me. I read up to 2 Nephi 25:23 and had a question. What does “after all you can do” mean? Does it mean that I need to stop sinning, or does it mean that I need to join the LDS church; does it mean that I need to see all my family as the devil? I don’t understand what that means do you?
I continued to read about wars and peoples, cities and prophets, coins, horses, elephants, steel, glass, etc. It was a great story. Plenty of action and bible verses. It sounded great. I had never heard about this history of the Americas before. I was reading in Alma and there was another verse that really weighed down on me. I know that I must always do what God says, and Alma 11:37 seemed impossible to me. It says I couldn’t be saved in my sins. I need to be saved. But it says God can’t save me in my sins. I always thought that God could do anything, but I guess that He can’t save me in my sins. I know that I am a sinner. I started to feel doomed. But I listened to the missionaries and they said that the BOM was true. If it is true, I’m in real trouble.
It didn’t take long to reach Alma 34. The missionaries told me that I could repent and I would be saved. Great! I could repent and my sins would be forgiven. But I sin every day. I would need to repent every day to make sure that I would live with Heavenly Father again if I died unexpectedly. I read in Alma 34:32-35 that I needed to repent of all my sins before I die or I will be sealed to the Devil. But the missionaries told me that I would be sealed to my wife and children and be a family for eternity. But if I’m sealed to the devil, are my wife and kids sealed to the devil also? Again, I always sin. It may not be a big sin, but it is still a sin. There must be something more.
That something more better hurry, because I read Alma 42:30. I can’t excuse myself from any of my sins. Big, little, any sin. But maybe teeny, tiny sins are OK. I hoped there was a loophole for people like me.
I finally got back to Moroni and continued to read. There was 10:4 again saying that I must pray about the truth of the BOM. By this time, I was really depressed. Then 10:32 hit me hard.
“Yea, come unto Christ and be perfected in Him,”
Sounds great! I really needed to be perfected because I am a sinner
“and deny yourself of all ungodliness,”
I still can’t do this, what’s next?
“And if ye shall deny yourself of all ungodliness, and love God with all your
might, mind, and strength,”
I will try, but sometimes I will question things and sin occasionally.
“then is His grace sufficient to you.”
If I deny myself of all ungodliness then what am I? I’m perfect. But only Jesus was perfect. If I am perfect, why would I need grace? But what if I can’t deny myself of all ungodliness? I still need His grace! I’m a sinner. I really need grace. But it won’t be sufficient for me. God loves me, I need His grace. But the God in the BOM can’t save me in my sins. But I again listened to the missionaries and they told me that there was always repentance and the atonement. Good, there must be something more. I prayed about the BOM, but I didn’t get that “burning in the bosom” that the missionaries said that they felt. I decided to look deeper into the LDS church because the missionaries were adamant that the church is true. I went to engineering school and research comes naturally to me. I decided not to judge the church on just the BOM, even though it does say that it the “most correct book of any on earth, and the keystone of our religion.”
I bought a quadruple combination from LDS.org. It contains the KJV Bible with Joseph Smith’s changes in the footnotes, the BOM, The Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrines and Covenants (D&C). That’s a big book! Tons of commandments, laws, rules, etc. The missionaries referred to D&C a number of times. Maybe I would start to feel better about my salvation and eternal life by reading that book.
I was wrong. Right from the start, in D&C 1:31-32, I knew I was in big trouble. There was no way I could even get by with tiny little sins. Remember Alma 42? No more little white lies, looking at a pretty girl, covetousness, hatred, are there more? I’m sure there are. God couldn’t look upon ANY sin with the least degree of allowance. Again, I thought God could do all things, but I guess not. But wait, there may be a way out of my predicament. In verse 32 it says, “He that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven.” I need that forgiveness, desperately.
I looked up repentance in the index and it says “requires” with D&C 58:43. I needed to know how to repent because I needed to be saved. The only way I could be perfect is by grace and that requires repentance. I read, “By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins, behold, he will confess them and forsake them. What does forsake mean? I looked it up in the dictionary. It says I can’t do it anymore. Forsake means abandon. Abandon means stop. Again, I need to stop sinning. I CAN”T. It’s too hard! There is no way I can do it! But remember 1 Nephi 3:7, it says that I can do it! Will I ever be worthy enough?
I wanted to find out what happens if I sin again after I repent. Back to the index and under SIN, it says D&C 82:7, “former sins return…” I looked up the verse. I shouldn’t have done that.
“And now, verily, I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge;
go your way and sin no more;
There it is again, I can’t sin again, ever!
“but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.”
Great, I’m right back where I started from. Will I ever be worthy enough?
Now I really needed forgiveness. Again, the missionaries said that all we need to do is try our best and God will know that we are sincere and enduring to the end. That sounded good, but I couldn’t find where trying was enough in the scriptures that I had read. The missionaries to the rescue again! They said that is what modern day prophets were for, to clarify the scriptures and provide guidance to the people of this dispensation.
I tried deseretbooks.com. Bingo! I was looking for modern day prophets and their teachings. I bought “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith” and “Miracle of Forgiveness”, by Spencer W. Kimball. These two guys were supposed to be God’s prophets on the earth, so I had better listen to them. Plus, I needed that miracle that Kimball’s book talks about. I really needed that forgiveness. My sin just continues to happen.
Joseph Smith was the man who brought about the restoration of the Gospel, so I decided to read his book first. Pretty boring, not much that told me about my eternal life, until page 150. What did the missionaries say, “We repent every day.” But Joseph Smith, the Prophet Himself, says that daily repentance doesn’t please God. God is already mad at me and can’t save me in my sins, so now I can’t even repent every day! What happens if I die on my way home from work? Remember Alma 34, I’m sealed to Satan. But God only wants us to try our best, I hope.
“The Miracle of Forgiveness.” What a great title to a book. I was sure that in this book I would have all my worries put to rest. Forgiveness is a miracle. I needed a miracle to forgive a sinner like me. I started reading.
The title of the first chapter already had me worried, “This Life is the Time.” I already knew what that meant. Remember Alma 34. The second chapter’s title wasn’t much easier on me, “No Unclean Thing Can Enter.” I know that I’m unclean, but I didn’t know how dirty I really was until I got to pages 23-25. Remember that I asked if there were more sins I needed to know about? Spencer Kimball found them for me! I’ll be honest, if this is the list of sins that I need to repent of, and be finished with by the time I die, I have no hope. The church is true and the BOM is true, Joseph Smith was a prophet, and Spencer Kimball was a prophet, and prophets don’t lie (I don’t think), and the church teaches this information. But all I need to do is try. Trying is enough for God, right? I can’t find it anywhere in the books I have read, but the missionaries are certain trying is all that needs to be done. I better not trust the scriptures and the books the church publishes, only the missionaries. They really know their doctrine!
I read further in “Miracle of Forgiveness.” Now I’m really praying for that miracle it talks about in the title. I need grace, forgiveness, salvation, sealing to my family, exaltation, worthiness, etc. I’m trying my best. I have all the desire in the world to please God. That is all that God asks for, trying and desire. I have all the blessings, or so I thought. Chapter 12 sealed my eternal doom.
Again, the title was familiar, but not comforting, “Abandonment of Sin.” Where did I hear that before? I remember, D&C 58:42-43. Abandon means forsake, forsake means stop. I asked myself how well I was doing with abandoning my sins. Not good. I really want to abandon them, really! I didn’t even get off the first page of the chapter before I knew I had a problem. “Desire Is Not Sufficient.” Great! “The saving power does not extend to him who merely wants to change his life.” I sincerely want to change my life. Am I saved if I really, really truly want to change? Nope. I agree that wanting to change is different from trying to change. At least that is what God wants us to do, right? Work! Spencer doesn’t stop with desire.
“Trying is Not Sufficient.” The final hammer fell. Those two missionaries didn’t have all the answers, did they? Up until this point, I truly believed that little saying, “We do our best, and Jesus does the rest.” Spencer Kimball, a prophet of God declares, “Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin.” “To try is weak.” “To ‘do the best I can’ is not strong.” We must always to better than we can.” What is better than we can? We can do anything (1 Nephi 3:7). Where is that miracle?
Now I knew what “after all you can do” meant in 2 Nephi 25:23. It is the complete abandonment of all of my sins before I die. I can’t just want to, I can’t just try. I must live up to the scriptures and teachings of the prophets. I must deny myself of all ungodliness, do all I can do, abandon every sin, not repent every day, endure to the end (end of what? I’m still unclear), and remain worthy. What happens to me if I don’t complete my repentance before I die? I’m sealed to Satan. Do I make it to the Celestial Kingdom? No. Do I have my eternal family? No. Can I progress in the post-mortality? No. I must be PERFECT.
No one is perfect, therefore, there is NO HOPE! There must be something more. A loving, caring, merciful, and just God would never teach that there is no hope. Fortunately, there is a God that understands the nature of His creation.
My journey through Mormonism didn’t end the way I thought, or the way the missionaries wished it would have. The missionaries were so happy (how I can’t figure out) and knowledgeable (well, somewhat) and certain (I heard their testimonies 5 times). They “knew” that if I only prayed about the BOM, I would have that “burning” and “know” that it is true. I sincerely prayed about the Mormon Church. The Holy Spirit clearly told me that it wasn’t true and guided me to the Bible.
What a great explanation of the problem with Mormonism! This one is a keeper!
T. Urban, i know why the missionaries were excited about you. It is because they are constantly taught that all that is necessary for someone to believe in the Church is to feel the Spirit, and that´s promised to happen in the BoM. So, every time someone gets a negative answer like you they must instantly assume that there was a problem with you, not with the BoM or the Church. You either were not sincere enough(seriously), or you had some hidden sin, or it just wasn´t the right time and eventually "God" will touch your heart to show you the truth.
I remember how i trusted that BoM promise, and how even though people were skeptical i insisted that they should pray about it because god would tell them it was true. How frustrating it was also to know that someone had felt the "spirit" and not joined the church and how sad i felt about how that person had lost his/her opportunity and would end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom.
It never occurred to me that the promise was false, because nobody cared to read the BoM. We would have to read it together with our investigators, because they hadn´t even opened the book. So, very few people actually read it and rejected, and i usually attributed that to the reasons mentioned above, and sometimes i also thought it had to do with people telling them lies about the church, or they being influenced by Satan instead. Seriously.
"I better not trust the scriptures and the books the church publishes, only the missionaries. They really know their doctrine!"
Riiiiiight. All i was taught in the MTC were the missionary discussions, and the scriptures related to it. Sometimes we also discussed some of those silly straw-man objections. We never had any lessons on Church History or apologetics in any way, and when deep doubts were brought up in discussion all our teachers told us was to ask God for the answers – He would reveal to us when the time was right, etc.
I remember while i was at the MTC in Provo, Élder Maxwell came to speak, and his message was: trust yourselves, you know more than you think you know and be in tune with the Spirit, He will help you as well. That was the average level of knowledge missionaries i worked with had. Also, they don´t regard any intellectual argument as truly valid – only spirit-induced arguments are valid in a mormon missionarie´s mind(with some exceptions). That means that no matter how much your argument makes sense, if it is not spoken with the power of the "Spirit" it becomes worthless.
"I knew what “after all you can do” meant"
You´re 100% right if you were to take the Scriptures seriously, but people these days basically don´t have time to do a more careful study of the Scriptures… at least that´s what they tell me. I don´t either, but i manage to make the time, and i love reading the Bible, so it´s not that difficult to find the time. From what i´ve understood in my years in Church to do the best you can simply means to keep the basic commandments required for you to go to the temple, and to work in your callings, do home-teaching and support your leaders when they do a Church activity. So, the Scriptures don´t really have much authority in the Church, even though they will deny it with all their heart, might, mind and strength!
OFF TOPIC:
I was reading the entry "Pauline Epistles" in the Bible dictionary a few days ago, and when it talks about the Epistle to the Galatians it says under "Analysis of Galatians":
"3.Theological: showing the superiority of the doctrine of faith to the doctrine of merit by works"
Source – http://lds.org/scriptures/bd/pauline-epistles?lan…
Am i reading too much into it, or is the LDS Church admitting that their Doctrine of exaltation by your own merits is inferior to the Doctrine of Faith taught by Paul in Galatians?
3 Article of Faith: "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."
Seriously, are they admitting that in an official publication?
This all sounds so confusing!
It's a good thing that all you have to do is pray if it's true and if you get some sort of physical and/or emotional feeling, then it's true.
Here's the hard part.
What's true?
Anything I pray about and get a good feeling?
And if I pray about something and get a bad feeling, then it's false.
What if I want to commit adultery with the women next door. I think about it, intensely, pray about it and if while thinking about it and praying about it I get a good feeling, it's a go, right?
This praying for feelings has all sorts of possibilities.
Mormons tell us that the feelings come from the Holy Spirit and these feelings are then our guide. What about shame and guilt. They are negative feelings so they can't possibly come from God.
Well if the Mormon "scripture" and Mormon "revelation" contradict one another, I guess all a person has to do is depend on their feelings.
Like the LDS leadership, they will never lead you astray!
Joseph Smith never led anyone astray did he? I mean with the exception of thirty-three women who he felt good about marrying, but then they weren't led astray because he felt good about it.
What a prince of a guy!
"Forgiveness" seems to be a really hard concept to get a hold of in Mormonism. In reading testimonies of former Mormons what we see is a lot of "I never felt like I was doing enough". My impression is that the Mormon religion metaphorically beats their members like borrowed mules. The expectations are that you work like a dog for the church even if that means that you neglect your family. If someone takes the program seriously, at the end of the day, they are found wanting, is a typical refrain. Of course there are those members who feel like they've got it made and point to their works with great pride. I recently heard that there is a ceremony, that a certain few Mormons are treated to in the temple, where by their calling is declared to be secure. In-other-words, they've done enough and they are now guaranteed their slot in the Celestial Kingdom. Man, that's got to be a head trip and talk about assurance. For a Mormon it can't get any better than that.
But as I keep reminding myself, this is Mormonism. Any resemblance that this religion has to Christianity is purely coincidental especially as it comes to the topic of forgiveness.
So what's the point of Mormonism? It's that men, if they do enough,can become gods. Now beyond that, what's the point? If a Mormon man doesn't want to become a god, he can pretty much do what he wants, hence the term "jack Mormon". These are Mormons who don't pay much attention to the Word of Wisdom. They smoke, drink coffee, knock back some beer as they please and just hang around the edges of the Mormon church. Mormons believe in universal salvation. They are way into eternal security. The Mormon charge (falsely) that Christians believe that they can sin with impunity because they've received Jesus as their personal savior really rings hollow in light of Mormon eternal security. Eternal security, Mormon style, allows everyone into some level of Mormon heaven, regardless.
Let's face it, Mormons who are into the man to god program, have no idea where they stand that's why they're knocking themselves out 24/7 doing, doing, doing. They don't know if it's ever enough and they don't know if they're pure enough to becomes gods.
This is really a confused state of affairs and I would think that the average Mormon would figure out that something isn't quite right with the system.
Well, you nailed it when you asked "What does 'after all you can do' mean?" You asked the question, but didn't quite answer it.
That you are saved by grace after all you can do means that even after you have done everything in your power, after you have fought the good fight and run with patience the race set before you, even after all that, you're saved by grace. You're not saved by "all you can do," but by grace.
Put another way: Jesus asks us to keep His commandments if we love Him. I love Jesus, so I'm going to keep his commandments. But Paul tells us that we have all sinned and all fall short. Mormon teaching and scripture emphasizes the first part (we love Jesus so we should keep his commandments), acknowledges the second part (we're not good enough to make it alone and will always fail; some might even say we're totally depraved), but then teaches that salvation comes only through the grace of Jesus Christ.
Keeping Jesus' commandments is how we show our love and gratitude to him. It does not buy anyone salvation. We are saved by Jesus' grace, despite all we can do.
I think it's pretty obvious that Joseph Smith and those who followed him were just gab bagging ideas. They're inconsistent and really not all that creative.
Jesus came that we may have life and have it more abundantly, He said. The whole idea was that we would know Him and understand what the meaning of the cross is. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not that complicated. Man's sin separates him from God. That sin carries a death sentence. God made a covenant with man where by a blood sacrifice of the perfect, unblemished lamb would satisfy God's requirements for the penalty for sin. Jesus took our place. All of the wrath of God was poured out on Him. Through faith in Christ we are declared "not guilty" and the judge sets us free.
In Mormonism, this is not enough. But then Mormonism isn't Christianity. It's a manufactured religion that tells men that they can become gods if they will full-fill certain requirements.
When Mormons discover who God is and the provision He has made for mankind to receive eternal life, they are set free from the tyranny of the false religious system of Mormonism.
It is really a shame that Mormons reject God's grace and gift of eternal life for a lie.
"even after you have done everything in your power, after you have fought the good fight and run with patience the race set before you, even after all that, you're saved by grace."
Sorry, but that´s completely wrong – "after all you can do" is a condition. You only receive grace if you do "all you can do". If "all you can do" was just something you did out of your heart, then it would not be conditional, and the Mormon Church would only teach Salvation by grace and not by the works of some made up law, such as the Word of Wisdom.
"but then teaches that salvation comes only through the grace of Jesus Christ."
I really don´t think you actually read the article… when have you done all you can?
3 Article of Faith: "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."
Your article of faith states you´re not saved by Grace alone, but it is through obedience of a law. Read my other post about Galatians.
So, let me ask you – Are you saved by the Grace of God alone, or do you need some temple secret-handshakes to actually enable you to live with God for eternity? Those are completely opposite concepts.
"Keeping Jesus' commandments is how we show our love and gratitude to him. It does not buy anyone salvation."
Again, then why are Mormons obligated to attend temples to go to the Celestial Kingdom? Why are they commanded to pay tithing, instead of allowing them to pay what they desire from their hearts?
Can you go to the Celestial Kingdom without that? Can you go to the Celestial Kingdom without accepting Joseph Smith as your savi… oops as a true prophet of God?
f_melo
AoF3 appears to me to be a deliberate obfuscation; it's a kludge that wants it both ways. (Like a man who wants a wife and a mistress? Sorry, off topic, but related by Joseph Smith's personal history).
I'm going to get picky about punctuation here. Also, I'm going to presume that Joseph Smith was fully aware of what he was writing in the Wentworth Letter, primarily because his concern about precise language is evident in his insistence on "correct translations" and the like.
Original AoF3
Now, if we use the commas to split the statement (which is a perfectly a valid means to understand it), we get two messages;
Message 1
Message 2
Having some knowledge of Mormon history, I read Message 1 as something to mollify the post-Christian Mormons who wanted to keep the "atonement" of Jesus in the equation, somehow. Hopefully, they would have lost interest before they got to Message 2.
Message 2 is where it's really at. You can't be saved without obeying the "laws and ordinances" of the Gospel. This is where the LDS Leadership becomes indispensable, because it sets the "laws and ordinances" of the Gospel.
So, "after all you can do" means doing whatever the LDS Leadership tells you to do. And if they say you're OK in your efforts, then you are OK, and you have done "all you can do". According to the theory, if you do this, then you've got yourself into a position where Christ's atonement becomes effective in you.
The problem here is that there is no acknowledgment of God's grace, or the utter desperation of our condition without it (if we could get ourselves out of the prison, we would not need a savior). Furthermore, because the believer is taught to rely on his or her own merits, he or she is not taught to trust in Christ's.
The Bible teaches that there is no prequalification to God's grace. The Bible talks about faith as a condition, but the faith it describes lets go of all claims of self-affirmation and entitlement and simply receives from God what He offers on the basis of His word. (True faith also results in tangible evidence, but we're talking about the fruit of salvation, not what gets you saved). Trying to work yourself into a position at which God's grace can reach you is an act of anti-faith, because it's not relying on His power to work in you, but in your "ability" to save yourself; you're not trusting in Christ, but in yourself.
terceiro,
Give up the program! It's not going to deliver you to the Christ of the Bible, no matter what the LDS Leadership says.
The Mormon gospel doesn't fit in real well with the Gospel of Jesus Christ especially when it comes to a couple of basic things like the doctrine of the nature of God and the doctrine of salvation. That's kind of a couple of big things that Joseph Smith and his subsequent false prophets decided to change and go with their own inventions.
The gospel of Jesus Christ, as the apostle John explains in his epistle, says that if we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness. As believers in Jesus we receive the benefit of a constant cleansing. We need it because we are by nature sinners and no matter how hard we try, we mess-up. We don't naturally have righteousness. Walking in the light means that we walk in faith. That doesn't mean that we are free to sin but that when we do sin, God cleanses us. God has declared us righteous because of our faith in Jesus and His finished work on the cross.
When Jesus said, "It is finished" it meant literally that "the debt is paid". In-other-words, we can't do anymore to secure our salvation than what Jesus has already done for us. The life we lead in faith, walking in the light, is a reflection of this reality. We have been justified before God through our faith in Christ. Now that we have been born again by the Spirit of God, we are being sanctified. When we die and are with God, we will be glorified. That's the three tenses of salvation; we have been saved, we are being saved, we will be saved. We are justified through faith in Jesus' perfect sacrifice…..period. We can't add anything to it. We can only accept it.
The Mormon false gospel makes sense to someone who doesn't know who God is. The Mormon gospel makes sense to someone who thinks they can become a god. This is a false gospel that enslaves people. The Gospel of Jesus Christ frees people as they are at peace with God no longer under condemnation.
Doctrine and Covenants. Section 130. lds.org.
The Doctrine and Covenants
Close Audio
Section 130
Items of instruction given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Ramus, Illinois, 2 April 1843 (see History of the Church, 5:323–25).
1–3, The Father and the Son may appear personally to men; 4–7, Angels reside in a celestial sphere; 8–9, The celestial earth will be a great Urim and Thummim; 10–11, A white stone is given to all who enter the celestial world; 12–17, The time of the Second Coming is withheld from the Prophet; 18–19, Intelligence gained in this life rises with us in the Resurrection; 20–21, All blessings come by obedience to law; 22–23, The Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bones.
All blessings come by obedience to the law.
or (from blue letter bible site.)
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Eph 2:16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Eph. 2:17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
terceiro said Keeping Jesus' commandments is how we show our love and gratitude to him.
This is wrong. First off, A religious leader or person came to Jesus and asked what are the greatest commandments. Jesus replied with, Love the Lord your God and 2nd is Love your neighbor, they are all summed up in these. Also According to Mormonism, People on their death bed cannot be saved. You know why? It's because they cannot do god works, and cannot keep these commandments.
Jesus told the religious leaders that their is only one work we must do to be saved. That is to believe one the one whom God sent. Nothing else, It's Jesus Period, Not Jesus and…..
f_melo: did you serve in Missao Brasil Porto Alegre in about 1990? Just curious, I knew an Elder Melo there.
If I might respond to a few of your objections you made to my comment. I hope I can clarify my position sufficiently. I'm not trying to make you agree with me, but I do think it is important that we can see each other's side clearly. No one is benefited with subterfuge or misinterpretation.
You state "You only receive grace if you do 'all you can do'" as if it were the canonical interpretation of 2 Nephi 25:23, but that is simply not the case. It is AN interpretation of that scripture, but it is not canonical. A very popular book in the Church a number of years ago was by Stephen Robinson and entitled "Believing Christ." (The book was just an expansion of the Ensign article of the same name, which is also available as a speech at a BYU devotional: http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=7054… The book was published by Deseret Book, the article was in the Ensign, so it's an arguable source of actual Mormon doctrinal explanation. In the speech/article/book, Robinson argues for the absolute necessity of grace. He describes how often members of the Church do indeed think and act in the ways you describe in your comment (and, indeed, in the way T. Urban does, too), but he also explains how utterly incompatible that is with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Do many Mormons believe in the way you describe? Yes. Is their belief an accurate barometer of Church doctrine? No. And one of the challenges of a lay ministry is that sometimes incorrect teachings take a while to weed out. But that does not mean that those wrong teachings are now canonical or doctrinally accurate.
So here's the real doctrine: we are saved by the grace of Jesus. We are saved, in the words of the article of faith you quote, "through the atonement of Christ." He is the way. He is the only way.
But, you might object, what of tithing and secret handshakes and home teaching? And you bring up a valid point. How can we be saved through grace alone if we also have requirements to fulfill? You said they were "opposite concepts."
Well, your question reminds me of one posed to Jesus by Nichodemus. Orthodox Christian doctrine requires that a person be baptized to be saved. You personally may or may not disagree with that statement, but it's doctrinally consistent with every major Christian sect. Contemporary Protestantism additionally requires a emotional/intellectual step of accepting Christ as a personal savior. Catholicism, on the other hand, has a collection of sacraments in this regard. If we were having this discussion 450 years ago, we would argue about the number of sacraments God requires, but we would both agree that there are required sacraments.
Jesus makes some of them very clear in the Bible: baptism by water, partaking of the Lord's supper, and the washing of feet. I struggle to understand how a person might claim to believe in the Bible and yet somehow eliminate those specific commandments by Jesus. I suspect (but please forgive me if I have misunderstood your position: I'm only guessing at your personal beliefs on the matter based on what is generally accepted in mainstream Christianity) that you acknowledge baptism as a Godly practice.
I presume that you have a method by which you can accept baptism as required and also be saved by grace alone. I only ask that you grant me–and the LDS church–the same logic.
[continued]
The key word, by the way, in the analysis to Galatians you quote above is not "works" but "merit." Works are required, since baptism is a work, and the Lord's supper is a work, and even accepting Jesus as your personal savior is a work. Every major Christian denomination acknowledges the necessity of certain works. Neither you nor I nor the LDS church teaches that we are saved by merit, or by "good works." We are saved by grace, through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ.
Let me be perfectly clear on this, if I may. I am a centrist, mainstream member of the LDS church. I'm not going to bear my testimony here, but let me explain what I mean by that: I hold a current temple recommend. I have a testimony that Thomas S. Monson is a prophet and that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I read from the Book of Mormon daily. I also read from the New Testament daily. I only read from the Old Testament occasionally and I have no plans to ever read Deuteronomy again (that's an attempt at humor there). I hope that establishes my bona fides as a true-blue Mormon. So what comes next is a statement from a knowledgeable, practicing, believing Mormon: I happily proclaim that we are saved only by and through the grace of Jesus. I rejoice in my savior, and know that He is the only way. I cannot earn salvation, it is a gift freely given by Jesus.
Your closing question about accepting Joseph Smith follows a similar pattern. Can you be saved if you believe in Jesus but think that Paul (for example) was a nutter? Can you be saved if you accept Jesus as your personal savior but reject the book of Luke since he wasn't actually an eyewitness to the things he describes? I suspect your acceptance of Jesus as your savior simply cannot be separated from an acceptance of the writers of the New Testament as men authorized to write God's word. My love for Jesus and my accepting him as my savior came (and continues to come!) as I read the words of those who are authorized to speak God's word: the list includes the writers of the Old Testament, the writers of the New Testament, the writers of the Book of Mormon, and, yes, Joseph Smith. The difference is in the specifics, not in the principle.
Do we disagree on the specifics? Clearly. But I do not think we disagree in principle.
Oh, and if you did serve in PoA, talvez nos fomos companheiros em Pelotas? Meu portugues e' muito mal estas dias, mas eu ainda acho que ela e' a lingua mais bonita no mundo.
terceiro You keep saying we need to do works to be saved, You mention baptism and keeping the commandments.
Well I really believe if I just said the Bible says… You would not bother to even look, so let me spoon feed you the verses. First of we do not need to be baptized to be saved. I know some verse say, Believe and be baptized, but other verses say, Just believe. If baptism is required to be saved, then we have a lot of problems, and a lot of people who cannot be saved and never will be saved.
First off, people on their death bed who might die before being baptized cannot be saved, then people on death row who repent cannot be baptized cannot be saved. What about babies that are aborted or die still born?
Now Jesus did not baptize, so if Baptism is so important, then why did Jesus not do it?
Now add to that, If we must be baptized in order to be saved, why would Jesus tell his apostles to preach the Gospel but not baptize?
Now read these verse in Romans, Their is no mention of Baptism only believing and confessing.
Also you seem intent on telling people that we must do works, So let me add this, The religious leaders came to Jesus and said,
Martin, i agree 100% with you!
Joseph Smith couldn´t get rid of Jesus altogether, so he had to put Him in a place where He supposedly would be in subjections to men´s authority – the prophets who supposedly tell us what those laws are.
"True faith also results in tangible evidence, but we're talking about the fruit of salvation, not what gets you saved"
That´s the thing that troubles many mormons i know – they can´t understand that. When i say that i´m saved by the Grace of God alone through faith, some of my family members reply: "so, you don´t have to go to church, you can just have all the fun you want. You can commit adultery, you can get drunk, etc. What´s the difference, you´re already saved – just enjoy life".
I feel really bad for the spiritual blindness Mormons have because of their blind guides that can´t be bothered to study theology at least for the sake of representing their enemy, Biblical Christianity, accurately.
"f_melo: did you serve in Missao Brasil Porto Alegre in about 1990? Just curious, I knew an Elder Melo there"
No, that´s not me, but i´m brazilian though. Thank you for the thoughtful response – it´s good to see you´re not just a troll trying to deceive people here by twisting definitions actually believing nobody would notice as it happened quite often a while ago.
Violet mentioned a valid point – in your Church the blessings that you attain are a reward for the obedience of some law/ordinance – which goes contrary to the teaching of Paul in Romans, when he said that Grace is an unmerited favor:
Romans 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"
In that sense "works" and "merit" have the same implication. You either gain Salvation as a reward for your works or by the Grace of God. They are mutually exclusive. I also disagree with you when you say that faith in Jesus is a work. It´s not a work, Faith in Christ is something that God bestows on people through the preaching of the Word among other things, and if you want i´ll cite the passages that talk about that. What´s God´s criteria for election? I have no idea and i won´t question a just God.
Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
Paul couldn´t be clearer! It´s either by unmerited favor or by our own efforts. It can´t be both. That´s New Testament doctrine throughout, even in James.
You say:"Do many Mormons believe in the way you describe? Yes. Is their belief an accurate barometer of Church doctrine? No"
Ok, so, are those many Mormons in apostasy? If they are they have to urgently repent, otherwise their efforts in keeping the commandments will be futile.
you say: "And one of the challenges of a lay ministry is that sometimes incorrect teachings take a while to weed out. But that does not mean that those wrong teachings are now canonical or doctrinally accurate."
I left the church not too long ago and i´ve never seen any effort by the leadership in trying to "weed out" that notion. On the contrary – that notion is extremely emphasized to "motivate" members to do their duties! Also doctrinal accuracy doesn´t come from the lay ministry on the bottom – it came from the lay ministry on the top. It comes from every single prophet and apostle, and Mormon Scriptures. Remember Élder Bednar Conference talk, last conference:
"My message focuses on the importance of striving in our daily lives to actually receive the Holy Ghost."
So, even after you fulfill the requirements of baptism and of receiving the Holy Ghost by which you´re promised to constantly have the company of the Holy Ghost, you still have to work, strive, fight to "actually" receive it! Does that mean you didn´t actually receive it when you had hands laid on you after your baptism? That wrong "notion" or "doctrinal accuracy" comes from your very own leadership and i can attest that no effort to change that is being made at all, or it has ever been made by the church officially, in any period of church history to the present day. That book you cited is not quoted in any teaching manual as far as i´m aware, or it is supposed to be used in church lessons.
So, honestly, if you think that´s a wrong interpretation of 2 Ne. i can only conclude that you don´t have a clue what your prophets and apostles have taught since the beginning of the Church in the 1830s
"Your closing question about accepting Joseph Smith follows a similar pattern. Can you be saved if you believe in Jesus but think that Paul (for example) was a nutter?"
Here´s the problem. In your belief system one has to accept Joseph Smith´s priesthood authority in order to fulfill the laws and ordinances of the gospel to be saved. Now contrast that to Paul. If all the writings of Paul had been lost in the past and all i had today was the Gospel according to John – i would still have all i needed to be saved.
Paul didn´t teach extra material increasing the doctrine already taught by Jesus, on the contrary, he only explained it and pointed people to Faith in Jesus. All Paul talked about was Christ´s death on the Cross for our sins and His resurrection from the dead! Joseph Smith adds stuff to the teaching of Jesus, takes the focus off of Him, and requires you to have to go THROUGH HIMSELF to be able to actually maybe or not receive the ordinances required to maybe be worthy to one day be exalted as a god in the Celestial Kingdom. You can argue all you want saying those extra things were removed from the Bible but evidence is overwhelming showing that no Mormon dogma(especially eternal families and temple stuff that was plagiarized from masonry) was ever a part of historical Christianity from the very beginning.
"Jesus makes some of them very clear in the Bible: baptism by water, partaking of the Lord's supper, and the washing of feet. I struggle to understand how a person might claim to believe in the Bible and yet somehow eliminate those specific commandments by Jesus"
Nobody can eliminate those commandments. Jesus was clear that those who do not bear fruit would be cast out. The difference is that those things in the Mormon Church are the means of Salvation(actually Exaltation, to be more accurate) – the new law imposed by Christ replacing the law of Moses. Yet that´s not what is taught by Jesus or the Apostles in the New Testament. Those things when done without faith are dead works – they are for the people already saved by Grace through faith as they go through the work of Sanctification by the Holy Spirit. Someone who denies Christ can do those things all he wants, but if he doesn´t believe in Christ they won´t matter, they are not the means of Salvation the same way nobody will be justified(declared righteous) before God by observance of the Law.
Yet in Mormonism i see the same Pharisaical attitude of outward appearance and zeal towards the keeping of ceremonies/laws that are not really concerned with faith or with a true change of heart. On the mission the change of heart wasn´t the focus, you know, as soon as someone actually went to church you could start pressuring the person to be baptized even without any meaningful spiritual experience. Also by my own experience i´ve seen countless times people afraid to confess their sins and instead of confessing it those people would continue to attend the temple regularly and take the sacrament, etc. Now, if the church´s true emphasis was being born again/Salvation by faith through Grace, and leaving behind dead works of a law, people wouldn´t be so afraid to confess their sins and be forgiven – and they are afraid because of the terror it is laid upon them because of how if they break those laws they´ll lose their eternal promises, always be shamed by never being able to hold a higher leadership calling, etc. That also give grounds for the pointing of fingers, "elite" families that are more "righteous" than others, etc. Then you come here and say that Mormons believe they are saved by Grace alone apart from the works of a law? You might convince someone who never stepped into a Mormon Church in his life, but not someone who has experienced it first hand.
Português realmente é uma língua muito bonita. Você já veio visitar aqui outras vezes? Como foi sua experiência no Brasil?
My Friend,
Let's do some baseline here so we're all clear what we are talking about.
First of all, you are talking about Mormonism, I am talking about Christianity. We need to keep that in mind or we'll end up speaking past one another. You have defined Mormon salvation. It's not Christian salvation. If you are depending on the Bible to bolster your Mormon point of view, it won't work. You have to trim, massage and hone the Biblical message in order to apply it to Mormonism..
Now, when you talk about "all you can do" I imagine that you are referring to the second phase of Mormon salvation, becoming a god. The first phase of salvation in the Mormon program is what everyone who ever lived will receive regardless of how reprehensible their lives might be and absent of any sort of faith, they will be covered by universal salvation. You're doing your Mormon works program to become a god. The works program makes Mormon sense in that context.
In Christianity there is one God. He offers salvation as a free gift. We can't earn it and we don't deserve it. The Bible says in Ephesians that "For it is by grace you are saved through faith and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God not as a result of works, that no one should boast." The works we do comes after we are saved and testify to the fact of it. We contribute nothing to our salvation.
That's the difference between Mormonism and Christianity. That is, a different God, Jesus and Holy Spirit (Mormonism has both a Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost), there is a totally different plan of salvation.
Rick, I didn't know that John 14:15 was a point of contention. When Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" I understood it to mean that we show our love to Jesus by, well, keeping his commandments. Would you explain how this is, as you say, wrong?
I presume that the religious leader you mentioned isn't Nicodemus, because Jesus told him that a man must be born of the water AND the spirit.
We do agree that it's Jesus, period. That's the most important part, and I'm glad we're on the same page with that one.
Falcon, I do appreciate your attempt to be clear and to use similar terminology. You'll do a better job convincing me if we can stick with terms with which we can agree upon, even if we do not agree in the doctrine.
There are only three members of the Godhead: God the father, his son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. We sometimes use "Holy Spirit" and sometimes "Holy Ghost" to refer to the same being, which might be confusing.
You do have a few misconceptions, however, in your description of orthodox Mormon doctrine. Let me be perfectly frank: there is no "program of works" in Mormon doctrine. I speak as an active, participating Mormon who has filled and continues to fill leadership positions. We are not saved by works, cannot be saved by works. Works can never, ever achieve salvation. We are saved only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. We are saved by grace. We are not saved by our works, we cannot earn salvation. We are saved by grace.
I might sound like I'm repeating myself, because I am. But I want it to be perfectly clear: orthodox Mormon doctrine is that we are saved only by and through the grace of Jesus Christ. Any other description of Mormon doctrine, anyone who claims that we teach or believe otherwise is incorrectly describing what Mormons believe. I, as an active Mormon, have faith that I will be saved only through the grace of Jesus.
The plan of salvation that I believe as a Mormon is that I have sinned and therefore cannot receive salvation except through Jesus Christ. Because he loved me and died for me, because he performed the marvelous work of the atonement, I can be resurrected and become an "heir of God and co-heir with Jesus Christ" as Paul described it. That's the plan: I sin, Jesus atones, God blesses. Ignoring everything else you might have read, does this description differ from your understanding of God's plan? Looking past labels, can you see where my description misses the mark?
f_melo wrote
Thanks for your comments. I added the parenthesis as an afterthought, and I'm glad I did, because the response you described is what usually gets posted here by Mormon posters.
There must be a few factors behind such a response. One must be the misinformation put out by the critics of "Grace alone" doctrine, such as the Mormon Leadership. Paul had similar critics, and answered them in Romans 6.
Another could be that the average Mormon justifies their position by saying that Heaven (or exaltation or whatever end-goal you want to call it) is the incentive to live a righteous life. I've heard JWs use the same logic. The way they see it, if you say it's free, you take away the incentive to live righteously. Therefore, no reward = no works.
The first problem with this is that it's not what the Bible teaches, especially the NT. Violet cited Ephesians 2:14-18, but it's not an isolated example.
The second problem is that it doesn't fit with the Biblical Narrative. In the story of the Exodus (which is one of those foundational stories in the formation of the people of God), the Law comes after the Redemption, not before. Later on, we find that "having" the Law, or even keeping it, does not guarantee a right relationship with God, else the Temple would not have got destroyed and Israel and Judah would not have been exiled in 597BC, and again in AD70.
Finally, it's a me-centered narcissistic view. It's moralistic therapism (a pet hate of mine). It's actually part of the problem because it's focused on me, and I am the main beneficiary. It's logical conclusion is that I won't work for God unless I get a reward. Call out the Unions! Claim your rights!. I did the hard yards, therefore I'm entitled to my pay. What's Jesus' response? Well, he has many, but we could start with Matthew 20:1-16
The Christian Gospel is focused on Christ, and He is the main beneficiary. You'd hope that that fact alone should set off some alarm bells.
Rick, let me apologize for sounding so positive in my responses; I don't mean to come across as a know-it-all or holier-than-thou. My intent is to clarify Mormon doctrine which seems to be somewhat misunderstood here. That's all.
Let me also assure you that I will look up any scripture in the Bible you mention, provided I have to look it up at all. I have read the Bible many times, and have even taught a Bible course at the Ohio State University. (It was a Bible as Literature course in the English department, so we weren't doing doctrine, just literature. But still, I know my Bible well enough.) You don't need to spoon-feed me; I'm a big boy (a bit too literally, alas. But I'm going to lose the weight this time!). Point being, let's not condescend to each other but treat each other with respect as brothers and sisters who each honestly are trying to follow Jesus. Should my misinterpretation be reason to treat me with scorn? I hope not.
You asked for a scripture to show where you are wrong, and, alas, I cannot find what you're looking for. The verses you quote are there in my Bible, too. But I'm curious, how do you deal with the Savior telling Nichodemus that "a man must be born of the water" in John 3? The word "must" in that verse seems pretty definitive in stating that baptism is a must.
But you're right: sometimes it says we have to be baptized and sometimes it says we need only believe to be saved. I take some comfort that every major Christian denomination practices baptism in one form or another. And I've got Martin Luther and Calvin and Zwingli on my side. And Augustine. So maybe they've all got it wrong, but it appears pretty generally accepted that baptism is a necessity for salvation. What then do we do with the passages you note? It appears that you and I will disagree about which passages are more accurate: those which advocate baptism and those which do not. I hold that it is important, and in that I stand with, well, every major Christian sect.
I might have been unclear previously about another matter, so please let me clarify here. Good works do not buy salvation. Good works will never, can never, earn salvation. Salvation comes only through the grace of Jesus Christ. As I mentioned above, I happily proclaim that we are saved only by and through the grace of Jesus. I rejoice in my savior, and know that He is the only way. I cannot earn salvation, it is a gift freely given by Jesus.
There are plenty of areas where Mormonism does not correspond with other Christian denominations, but this isn't one of them. In this area, we're pretty dang close–in fact, we preach the same thing: we are saved only in and through the atoning blood of Jesus. Period, end of story. Not through "good works" and not through any other person or means. We are saved through grace, because no matter how hard we might try, we can never deserve or earn it. Even after all we can do, even if we spend our whole lives fighting the good fight, we'll still be unworthy unless we apply Jesus' atoning blood.
Again, please don't misunderstand my tone for being anything other than trying to clarify Mormon doctrine. It isn't that I'm "so sure of myself" but that there seems to be much misunderstanding of Mormon doctrine here. Because the truth is that Mormon doctrine proudly proclaims that Jesus is the Messiah and the only path. If you look on the newly-launched site (http://mormon.org/jesus-christ) you'll find 2 Nephi 2:8 quoted: "Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah."
"We are saved by grace. We are not saved by our works, we cannot earn salvation. We are saved by grace."
I don´t know why, but you didn´t adress most of my questions, and the 3rd Article of Faith either. Maybe you should call Thomas Monson and ask him to update it according to your new found Mormon theology.
As of now it says(again): "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."
According to your interpretation of Mormon Doctrine, it should say "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by Grace alone".
So, let me ask you again, if you are saved by grace, why do you need to go to a temple, to make extra covenants with a god that already saved you by His grace? Are you going to the Celestial Kingdom, or you´re not sure…?
You also talked about that scripture, when Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments. So, are you sure you´re keeping His commandments? All of them? Could you list them for us? Would you agree with me that if you´re not keeping all of God´s commandments you´re proving to Jesus you don´t love Him?
What about "be perfect as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect"? How are you doing with that, especially in light of 1 Ne. 3:7 that says that God never gives a commandment we can´t keep?
"orthodox Mormon doctrine" – What you´ve been talking about here is far from what orthodox mormonism is.
Don´t believe me? Ok, lets read a D&C passage:
D&C 138:4 "That through his atonement, and by obedience to the principles of the gospel, mankind might be saved." – this passage is even clearer than that article of faith.
So according to your god, you´re not saved by Grace alone. It is both – through the atonement plus obedience to certain principles. Now, here is where things get strange because you´re placing your own interpretations above what your scriptures and leaders say. Show me please one official statement from the First Presidency or from any apostles of your Church that states that Mormons are saved by the Grace of God ALONE! Just one will be enough.
Until then, you lost the argument and you´re not an orthodox Mormon, i don´t care what your credentials are.
"heir of God and co-heir with Jesus Christ"
The difference being that a Christian believes that God and us are not from the same species. God´s nature is different from ours, so that passage is not talking about a change of nature, but of inheritance in his kingdom – not as gods, because that would not be an inheritance in God´s Kingdom, that would be our very own Kingdom apart from God´s.
" Looking past labels, can you see where my description misses the mark?"
Yes, i can. One of the reasons is because you don´t believe in Hell. There´s no hell for people who reject God. They all partake of a universal salvation from physical death as Falcon said. To become a god you have to have the secret-handshakes(among lots of other things). The only "hell" you have is the outer darkness but only very few people will end up there, and those will be the ones who knew Jesus beyond faith and then denied Him.
terceiro said
Then he said
I say really?
Paul and Silas were in Jail, The Jailer came to them and said:
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
The response Paul gave was simple, Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. Nothing more to do.
Now that is something I can do and live with, But if your a Mormon, It simply is not that easy. Their are 3 different heavens you could go to, and Bruce Mc said anything less than Exaltation (3rd heaven) is damnation. So unless you enter into the 3rd heaven your damned, your saved in the sense that your not in hell or for LDS, outer darkness, but your still damned.
Here is what Mormonism teaches you must do in order to be saved.
According to Mormonism the Temple is of the utmost importance, But they seem to forget to tell you what you must do to be able to enter, I say that they seem to forget because, I have spoken with many Mormon Missionarys who tell me I can enter the temple, but never tell me about what I must first do. So they give you the false Idea that you simply can walk in to the temple.
Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). it says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,
1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.
In Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. we are not repentant if we don't sustain the authorities of the church and don't love the lord and our fellow man.
Add to that also pg 241 Eternal marriage is ESSENTIAL FOR EXALTATION. Our exaltation depends on marriage. Then over on pg 242 it says "and in order to obtain the highest, a man MUST ENTER INTO THIS ORDER OF THE PRIESTHOOD [MEANING THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT OF MARRIAGE];" "and if he does not, he cannot obtain it" (D and C 131:1-3)
Boy, I think I would rather follow Paul's simple teaching of, believe on the Lord Jesus, Not the LDS view of You must do all this first. I have pointed out to people before also, what if you convert to Mormonism, then die or get killed before doing all this. Plus in order to enter the temple, you must first spend one year simply being an LDS member, then after one year you can try to enter the temple.
Some of us will not have the year plus we need, so can you be sure your even saved? I know for a fact I am saved, what about you? I want to add also that D and C 131:6 teaches: It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance. Are you ignorant of these thing?
Terceiro said
First off let me say, Your not my brother, You teach a different Gospel and fall under Gal 1:8-9 With that said, I dont care what Martin Luther, Calvin or any other man said, I dont read what they said and dont follow them, I read the Bible and follow Jesus. As far as Being born of water, Jesus is not talking about baptism, He is talking about natural Birth. I have 3 kids and a wife, I know women need their water to break before you can leave the womb and be born, even Nic states, But how can I enter back into my mother, Nic knew what Jesus was speaking about.
Terceiro, The only reason why John 14:15 would be a point of contention between us, or me and Mormons is because many Mormons teach works are needed to be saved, and when you/they say we must keep His commandments it boils down to a long list of things we must do, we must as you stated, wash others feet, or as I showed below we must pay tithes or do this or that, or many things. Jesus said once as I point out to the religious leaders who asked, What "WORKS" must we do, Jesus said their is "ONLY ONE WORK" Not work(S), and that single work is simply to believe. Then Jesus said to another person, the laws/commandments are summed up in loving God and loving our neighbor.
So you guys make it out to be we must do many things, Even Jesus was accused of breaking the law by "working" on the sabbath.
If you cannot see me as a brother, I would hope that you could at least treat me kindly, perhaps as one who is in need of your pity. I would hope that I do not I deserve your scorn.
I understand your interpretation of John 3, but it is unorthodox. You are, of course, welcome to your belief, but it does not represent mainstream Christianity. Which would put us both out, I guess: you and I are neither one of us part of mainstream Christianity. Funny world, isn't it?
terceiro,
You sure practice a unique brand of Mormonism. I think Rick hit the nail on the head with his list of things a Mormon must do in order to get to the Celestial Kingdom and become a god. Let me ask you, can you be saved (second level becoming a god) without tithing? If you have to tithe plus any number of things in order to get a temple recommend so that you can "do" the rituals that will then allow you to become a god, you're doing works.
Also I'd like to take issue with your notion that Mormons interchange Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost. I'll have to look the reference up because I've used it before when interacting with Mormons on this point, but one of your leaders taught that the Holy Spirit was an energy force like electricity. Ah, here it is:
The all time great, the guy the apostles used to rely on to give them the straight skinny on Mormon doctrine. Yes ladies and gentleman, the man current Mormons are running away from, Bruce McConkie who quotes President Joseph F. Smith "…….The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be omnipresent in person than can the Father or the Son…It is not the Holy Ghost who in person lighteth every man who is born into the world, but it is the light of Christ, the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the source of intelligence, which permeates all nature, which lighteth every man and fills the immensity of space. You may call it the Spirit of God, you may call it the influence of God's intelligence, you may call it the substance of his power; no matter what it is called, it is the spirit of intelligence that permeates the universe and gives to the spirits of men understanding…" And, "The Spirit of God which emanates from Deity may be likened to electricity…which fills the earth and the air, and is everywhere present: (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 752-53).
Look I get it. Mormonism is confusing for Mormons so they individually kind of settle into doctrine that they find palatable. Why not? You can get revelation as well as the next guy, right?
Bottom line, you've got a different God. If the only way you can attest to the truthfulness of Mormonism is through your "testimony" burning in the bosom, I've got news for you. Just about every religious tradition has some form of the same thing-attesting to their truth. You've got trouble. I get a burning in the bosom most Sundays' when I'm in a church service. I could take you to a Christian church service and guarantee that you'd get a burning in the bosom there also. So there we have it. I think if I were you I'd work a little harder on determining who God is and why the Mormon church is a false religious system that tries to rip-off Christianity in a false way.
f_melo, true, I didn't answer most of your questions but only because I have not had time to read and consider responses. Saturdays are busy for me: I've got a wife and kids too! But I do appreciate your participation in this discussion, and I hope that I am being a positive part, too. I'll answer your questions (though not right now… I'm trying to type while keeping kids safe in the bathtub.)
One point, however. I asked if you, or anyone here, could see a problem with my description of the plan of salvation as I described it here. The responses I've received did not answer that, but rather found problems with a whole raft of Mormon doctrine—which I am trying to keep out of the discussion for now. Not because it isn't important or because I am trying to obfuscate anything, but because I am trying to get things down as simply as possible. So I ask again, can you see where MY DESCRIPTION misses the mark. Please, please do not bring in other stuff, just with what I said. I am sincerely curious to see if my description is, according to y'all, on the mark or not.
To be even more specific, let's limit it to just this paragraph below. Is there anything IN THIS PARAGRAPH which would contradict your understanding of the Bible or of God's plan?
The plan of salvation that I believe as a Mormon is that I have sinned and therefore cannot receive salvation except through Jesus Christ. Because he loved me and died for me, because he performed the marvelous work of the atonement, I can be resurrected and become an "heir of God and co-heir with Jesus Christ" as Paul described it. That's the plan: I sin, Jesus atones, God blesses.
I might not be able to respond to everything now, but I will deal with your individual criticisms or questions when I get the chance, and I hope to continue with a pleasant, civilized discussion.
Terceiro said the f_melo replied to it,
First off I already covered baptism onto the Lord supper, If you claim you must practice it in order to be saved then we have a few problem. 1. LDS changed it to bread and water, not unleavened bread and wine. 2. Many christians today use grape juice not wine. 3. Again people on death row or their death bed cannot do this. So no this does not save us and we dont have to do this, we get to do this.
Now about foot washing, the only time we see or hear about it is in the gospels, we dont see this in the book of acts or the epistles. also people back then walked around bare foot or in sandals, we no longer largely here in the US at least do that, our overly dirty feet do not get all over the place from dirt roads, So no it does not matter if we practice that or not.
Terceiro clearly shows a lack of exegetical experience. He, like all Mormons, what to count baptism as something that is necessary to salvation, when it is actually SUBSEQUENT to salvation–it is the outward sign of inward grace as well as our expression of faith in and commitment to Jesus Christ. The Hammer is absolutely right and in alignment with orthodox Christianity with his interpretation of the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. In Acts 2, Peter responds to the crowd's question on what they need to do to be saved by saying, "Repent and be baptized…" This is where exegetical practices help us to understand what Peter is saying. The verb tense for repent is in the is in the imperative, while the verb tense for be baptized is in the aorist passive imperative, which means that is not a command as repent. In Acts 3, Peter tells the crowd to repent and turn to God–nothing about baptism.
Blessings…
When engaging with Terceiro, it's important to remember that when he says salvation, it is the same when we say resurrection. He does believe in universal salvation because there is a universal resurrection. Also, he does not believe in the concept of hell as Christians understand it.
In Mormon doctrine, the only thing Jesus dying on the cross did was put them into position to earn their way into God's presence. Sadly, biblical grace is not experienced in the Mormon Church. They fail to see any works we do as a response to God's grace in our lives–a grace that saves us on the merits of Jesus Christ–and see them as a prerequisite to grace and salvation.
Terceiro,
You don't need anything JS had to peddle. All you need is Jesus Christ. His grace is sufficient to save you.
T. Urban,
What a great article! Keep up the good work.
Blessings…
terceiro,
You are a real interesting cat. You seem to be able to compartmentalize Mormonism, forgetting its history and ever changing doctrines, revelations and practices. In that way you just kind of find a comfort zone and wall yourself off from reality. I remember a BYU professor saying, "In Mormonism you can believe anything you want. You just can't teach it." I think your approach is basically "no harm no foul".
The bottom-line, in case you ever decide to look into it, is that there is no Biblical support for what you believe. At the end of the day what you have is a guy who was a practitioner of magic arts, running about the countryside looking for buried treasure with his magic rock. He decides to go into the religion business and comes up with this hybrid form combining lots of different ideas and some fantastic stories that unfortunately some people are willing to believe because they make them feel good.
Terceiro said
Care to explain how you feel this way? I understand LDS believe Jesus was talking about baptism, but I suspect your talking about so called christian church's that dont agree with me. Let me remind you that Nic even stated to Jesus that we cannot enter into our mothers womb a second time. That tells me right their that Jesus was speaking of a natural birth and not Baptism. Now I know for a fact I'm not the only human, or only Christian that feels that was what Jesus was talking about.
But naming other believers or churchs that agree with me proves nothing. Now let me ask you this, You seem to disagree with things the LDS church teaches, either that or you are lying to us. Let me explain, I know as well as many ex-mormons and believers on this blog, LDS use names and terms that we believers use, except the meanings are different.
Example, You claim we are saved by grace alone and not of works, you claim works play no part in our salvation and no mormon would ever teach other wise. Yet I showed you things your prophets and presidents taught that totally dis-agree with you. You do not need to give detailed answers to these questions, just tell me, yes or no as to if they pose a problem for you, I dont want to change the subject and my questions will no doubt be brought up again at some point in time.
JS said No man can be saved in ignorance, if thats true, then many LDS must not be saved. I say that because if you guys cannot agree on the truth, how can you tell me I am wrong when you dont know if your right or wrong.
You guys want us Christians to say your Christians, yet you will not allow RLDS, or FLDS to call themselves Mormon, you say they are wrong in what they believe, yet they acknowledge JS as a prophet and the BoM, where as we Christians dont and thats not a problem to you?
You guys have 9 different first vision accounts that are all totally different and span years, They cannot all be true. Either they are all false, but then JS would be a false prophet, or only one is correct, but then how do you know which one is correct, thats not a problem for you?
BY taught no black man will ever hold the priesthood and God said so, but now they do, and thats not a problem?
I could go on with the problems, LDS is like swiss cheese, it is so full of holes it's not funny, but they way you avoid them is by claiming the Bible is also. Well if you fell that way, why bother reading the Bible?
You are spot on brother, Preach it some more.
terceiro said
Sorry but it's not as easy as you want it to be. Flat out you are lying if you simply say this is what I believe, since many of us who have studied LDS know that when you say something, it does not mean the same thing as we believe. Examples would be, when you say, I believe in grace, if you leave it at that, then you are lying or deceiving people, or you really are very ignorant since your BoM SAYS VERY CLEARLY, We are save by grace, PLUS WORKS, after all we can do. Now to leave off the plus works is a huge deal.
If I said, I believe Jesus is God, all or almost all believers would know I believe in the Trinity and believe Jesus is God. If you as a Mormon said to someone who does not know a thing about Mormonism I believe Jesus is God, they might think you and I believe the same thing. But The more Honest approach would be for you to fully define your terms. Example, When You say, Jesus is God, I would ask, what God. Since you believe the Godhood is made up of 3 separate gods, were as I believe in one God in 3 people.
Then if you claim I/we dont understand what you teach or believe, I /we provide you with exact quotes from the BoM, The pearl and the D and C, plus prophets, presidents and many other sources. So I cannot speak for anyone here but myself. If you choose to not come across as honest, say you believe what I believe and not clearly define terms, I will point them out and state that it APPEARS as if from your actions, your either lying and deceiving people, Or your a very ignorant LDS person that does not know what your church teaches and then I will ask, do you believe what JS said, when he said a man cannot be saved in ignorance.
I might seem as a hard person, but experience tells me when you boldly proclaim you study what you believe and are well informed of what you believe, then purposely word things so it appears you believe what I believe when you really dont, then I have to say it seems as if your a false prophet. Sadly way to many people are more worried about hurting your feelings or worried what you might think about them, so they wont call you out, me, I dont care, I care more about people being told the truth, people going to heaven and hearing the gospel and what Jesus thinks about me, than what some person I never meet face to face thinks of me.
terceiro wrote
…then you have no need for Temple rites, secret handshakes, attendance at church, tithing, loyalty to LDS leaders, celestial marriage, missionary work, not drinking tea, coffee or alcohol.
Please don't misunderstand me; I'm not saying that some of these things are not beneficial (some are definitely harmful, especially the rituals borrowed from Freemasonry, and the unquestioning obedience to a leadership that doesn't know its right hand from its left). But none of them are necessary to bring you into the Kingdom.
It is Jesus, period.
So why put so much time and effort into stuff that has no connection to him?
Here's a question for you (I'm not trying to embarrass or trap you in any way); if you had the opportunity to audit everything in Mormonism on the basis of it's value in relationship to Jesus, what would you jettison, and what would you keep?
f-melo, as an ex-Mormon you're doing a good job of cutting through the attempt by Terceiro to sound
like his Mormon beliefs are really not that different from all the others on this topic. We need to take
a moment and ask what's going on here ? The key to know where Terceiro is coming from is to
realize he represent a new type of Mormon. He mentioned Stephen Robinson. This well respected
Mormon academic has answered the call to help shape Mormonism for today's non-LDS culture.
He has worked in Protestant related schools , and he has learned how to use the words and beliefs of
Christians who are skeptical of Mormonism , to shape Mormon doctrine in Evangelical terms etc.
This tactic has found fertile ground as more non-LDS begin to think that Mormons are really not that
different from other "Christians ". The Mormon P.R. department in Salt Lake City could'nt be more
proud. While I can't judge Terceiro's heart concerning his personal beliefs, he does'nt set Mormon
doctrine, his leaders do.
"While I can't judge Terceiro's heart concerning his personal beliefs, he does'nt set Mormon
doctrine"
I couldn´t agree more. That´s why i also asked those questions, in my opinion they reveal the cognitive dissonance created in trying to conciliate Salvation by grace and Exaltation by works.
I heard of that book a loooong time ago, but it was just a curiosity, not taken very seriously. What surprised me was Terceiro saying that that interpretation of 2 Ne. was wrong, that that´s a wrong teaching and many mormons believe that because the leadership hasn´t been able to change their "notions" – but that´s not true at all. The entire temple work is based on Exaltation by your own works, and the mentality of "Salvation" not being free meaning that Christ did His part and now you have to do yours, is still the prevalent mentality in the Church.
I think the reason that new mormon theology hasn´t caught on is because that takes all the burden of guilt off from the members shoulders which diminishes the leadership´s power to get people to obey. So, they have the PR material ready to deceive Christians more effectively without having to compromise their member´s loyalty.
Otherwise, the Mormon Church would become just another "Christian" denomination and would no longer be able to claim to be the sole bearer of God´s authority on earth.
First of all, a happy Sabbath to everyone. I hope we will each find joy in our worship of the Savior today.
Wyomingwilly, I'll take it as a compliment that you think I'm a "new type of Mormon." I also take pleasure in falcon's characterization of me as "an interesting cat." It makes me feel like I'm in the 1960s and playing bongos while reciting poetry. 🙂
I'm going to head out on a limb here, though, and interpret those terms–and the lack of any direct response–that my statement below is something that we can all agree upon. To avoid confusion, I'll repeat it here, for the third time:
"The plan of salvation that I believe as a Mormon is that I have sinned and therefore cannot receive salvation except through Jesus Christ. Because he loved me and died for me, because he performed the marvelous work of the atonement, I can be resurrected and become an "heir of God and co-heir with Jesus Christ" as Paul described it. That's the plan: I sin, Jesus atones, God blesses. "
Now, that none of you object is a good sign, because except for the "as a Mormon" part, that is straight Christianity. And it is an accurate description of what I believe. It is, however, incomplete. And you all know it to be incomplete, too.
God created me just as he created you. God loves me, just as he loves you. He sent his Only Begotten Son to die for me and you and everyone who has ever been born. He offers his grace freely, "without money and without price" as Isaiah describes it. Salvation is a free gift–for those who will receive it.
Many of you feel as Rick the Hammer has stated below, that I am not your brother because I worship someone different than you do. This does, in fact, cause me some despair, because I worship Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of the living God, who was born in Bethlehem to Mary; Jesus Christ who called men to "come, follow me"; Jesus Christ who taught a gospel of peace and joy and love; Jesus Christ who was betrayed by Judas, who suffered for the sins of the whole world in Gethsemane, who died on the cross at the hands of the Romans; Jesus Christ who rose again on the third day and then ascended to sit enthroned on the right hand of God. That is the Jesus I worship. That you worship someone differently causes me sadness, because I have felt the joy that comes from accepting and following Jesus, and I wish you could feel the same joy that I do. Because I do feel joy and peace and love when I sing hymns and pray, when I teach my children, when I read God's word, when I serve my fellow men in His name.
That Jesus I worship, the Jesus in the Bible, gave certain requirements for me to accept His free gift. There is a paradox there, but it is one that every Christian embraces. We accept His free gift of grace when we believe and are baptized. Every major Christian denomination–Evangelicals, Methodists, Baptists, Episcopalians, Anglicans, Catholics, Presbyterians, Greek Orthodox (I hope I'm not leaving anyone out, this list is just off the top of my head)–agree that belief and baptism are, at a baseline, requirements to receive grace.
I like the way it was put in a document I read recently from the United Methodist Church. They stated that baptism was "an outward sign of inward grace, and a means whereby we receive the same" (If you're looking for it, I found it via the "Our Christian Roots" page at http://umc.org). I believe they're actually quoting the Anglicans there, but the real point is that this is about as Mainstream Protestantism as you can get. But look at the language, that an ordinance is "a means whereby we receive" grace.
As Mormon, I assert that the differences we feel in this matter are not in the principle but in the specifics. You (or at least the orthodox among you) believe that a person must believe and be baptized before they receive the free gift. I too believe that, but I add a couple of things to the list. Those things DO NOT PURCHASE, EARN, or otherwise NULLIFY the gift of grace that Jesus proffers me. Salvation is a gift that is given to me, a sinner, by a Savior who loves me.
Do we disagree on the list of things? Yes, we do. But you have a list and I have a list. I only ask that you recognize that we are alike in principle but disagree in the specifics. Again, we are identical in principle.
[continued below]
[continued from above]
You might call me "interesting" or a "new type" of Mormon, but, alas, this simply isn't the case. Wyomingwilly is also correct that I do not "set" doctrine, though I'm not sure how high up a person has to go to be one of the leaders he is referring to. My interpretations are consistent with canonical sources: the Scriptures (the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price), with the new Preach My Gospel, with the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, with the new http://mormon.org. It might not be the way you have understood Mormonism in the past, and for that I am sincerely sorry, but my version is absolutely mainstream and canonical. Anyone who tells you that Mormons must "earn" salvation, or that grace only kicks in after we've achieved salvation on our own (?!), is wrongly describing Mormon doctrine.
No, I don't set doctrine. God sets the doctrine (you saw that one coming, didn't you?) and I follow. I follow because I love Him.
And I believe that you love Him too. I will continue to call you brothers and sisters even if you do not accept me as such. I'll continue to read the Bible and love it. I'll continue to pay my tithing and do my home teaching. I have confidence that you will each continue to follow the dictates of your own conscience in these matters as well. How lovely that we can each approach God individually, that we can each of us pray in our own language to our creator, that we can feel the humbling Spirit as we contemplate the loving sacrifice of the Only Begotten.
And, with that, I'm going to have to call it a day, alas. It's Sunday and I have a primary lesson to teach (I'm substituting today, but the lesson is a great one, "Jesus Christ is the Son of God." I get to teach these children that Jesus Christ was more than just a great teacher, but was the literal Son of the Living God. How lucky am I?) and then I am cooking dinner tonight. Plus, this conversation is somewhat out of control; I can hardly keep up with the different threads. Maybe we can start fresh on one of the (two!) new posts today?
jackg,
Thank you very much for your contribution. I doubt that our Mormon friend knows that you were a Mormon and also held callings of responsibility in that sect. You do such a great job of exposing the Word of God and getting at its meaning. It's amazing what a little "intellectual" exercise can do as opposed to folks who suppose they are hearing from God but have no clue.
"I hope we will each find joy in our worship of the Savior "
We don´t worship the same Savior, and there´s no sabbath day anymore, Christ fulfilled the law, there´s no more set day for worship.
"that my statement below is something that we can all agree upon. To avoid confusion, I'll repeat it here, for the third time"
You know, Terceiro, i´m really disappointed at you. I thought we were going to have a decent discussion. Rick already addressed that as i did as well, yet you just decided to ignore. How dishonest. I was a missionary and that´s not the Mormon Gospel at all. So, stop pretending that nobody has actually responded to your deception of trying to depict your belief as basic historic Christian beliefs. You can repeat that piece of deception and misinformation about your religion as many times as you want, it´s still not the Mormon Gospel.
Your Salvation is to be exalted as gods – to receive the power to procreate eternally, and to send those spirit-children to planets you´ll create. You can´t just zoom in in a little piece of your theology that resembles Christianity and pretend that represents the Mormon Gospel. If those are your personal beliefs, good for you, but what are you doing trying to convert Christians who already believe in Salvation by Grace, and the forgiveness of sin – that alone tells me you have a hidden dishonest agenda. If that´s all you believed you wouldn´t be wasting your time trying to convert anyone who already believed that at all.
"This does, in fact, cause me some despair, because I worship Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of the living God"
No, you don´t. You worship a second-class god(with minor g) brother of Satan, who was only chosen to be the Savior instead of you or anyone else for that matter because of his higher intelligence and obedience to God. So, you don´t worship the Jesus of the Bible. BTW, what´s the official position of the church at the moment, are mormons supposed to worship god the father and Jesus or just god the father? and if you worship god the father and jesus, doesn´t that make you a polytheist? Just asking…
Terceiro, You really try and say that we have the same gospel, yet we dont. Sadly many people do not take the time to look behind the meanings of what your saying, they just believe at face value. So let me give you a huge list of Doctrinal and major differences that show we have a different gospel. I'm sure you have seen most or all of this before, But many have not.
Let me post what I see as contradictions among the Mormon scripture and teachings by LDS.
Let's start with God or gods.
Mormon Doctrine Teaches: There is more than one God.
Mormon Doctrine pg 576-577
Teachings pg 370.
Mormon scripture says there is only one God.
Doctrine and Covenants 20:19,28
Alma 11:21-41
2 Nephi 31:21
3 Nephi 31:21
Final line of the testmony of three witness in Book of Mormon.
A of F.1
Bible teaches there is only one God.
Deuteronomy 4:35,39 6:4
Exodus 34:14
Isaiah 42:8 43:10-11 44:6,8 45:14,18,21,22,23 46:5,9 48:11,12
John 10:30
1 John 5:7,
James 2:19
But then Mormon scripture teaches there is more than one God.
Moses chapers 2-4
Only one God versus Abraham chapters 4-5 (the gods)
Moses 1:3 teaches God is without beginning of days so how could he have once been a man.
Moses 1:6 says God knows of no other gods besides Him and that He is all knowing. So if He knows of no other god(s) besides him, how can He say in Abraham, I sat in the councel of the gods. The Bible teaches God cannot lie in:
Hebrews 6:16,
Titus 1:2
Then Mormon scripture teaches God cannot lie in:
Enos 6,
Ether 3:12
D and C 62:6
Mormon Doctrine teaches that God was once a man:
Teachings pg 345-346.
Mormon scripture teaches that God has always been God in:
Mormon 9:9-11,19
Moroni 7:22
The Bible teaches that God was not a man:
Psalm 50:21
Numbers 23:19
Romans 1:22-23
Mormon Doctrine teaches that God is progressive:
Teachings pg, 347-348,373
A of F. PG 430.
Mormon scripture teaches that God is unchanging:
Moroni 8:18
2 Nephi 27:23
D and C 20:12,17.
The Bible teaches God is unchanging:
Isaiah 43:10-11
John 1:1,14
Malachi 3:6
Hebrews 1:12 and 13:8
Mormon Doctrine teaches that God has a body of flesh and bones:
D and C 130:22
A of F. pg 43
Mormon scripture teaches that God is a spirit:
Alma 18:26-28 and 22:9-11.
The Bible teaches that God is a Spirit:
John 4:24
Luke 24:39
Jeremiah 23:24
Psalms 139:7-10
Mormon Doctrine teaches that God cannot create man; his spirit has always existed:
Teachings PG 354
D and C 93:29
Abraham 3:22
Mormon Scripture teaches that God made man after his own image:
Moses 2:26
The Bible teaches that God created man and he became a living soul:
Genesis 2:7
Colossians 1:16-17
John 1:3-4
Romans 11:34-36
The Bible is very clear: God is and always was God; He was never a man. Please explain just what the word eternal means. According to the dictionary, it means eternal or forever. The Bible is clear – God is eternal. Even the 1st A of F teaches that God is eternal.
Part 2:
Mormon Doctrine teaches that Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers.
Gospel Through the Ages, pg. 15.
Mormon Doctrine, pgs. 192,590.
Mormon Scripture teaches that Jesus is God:
Mosiah 7:27
D and C 38:1-3
The Bible teaches that Jesus is God:
Psalms 33:6
John 1:1–14:9
Hebrews 11:3
1 Timothy 3:16
1 John 5:20
Revelation 19:13.
I believe as the Bible teaches, Jesus Christ is God, not a God.
Mormon Doctrine teaches that the president of the LDS Church holds the keys of salvation for all men now living:
Mormon Doctrine, pg. 411
D and C 84:21,35.
Mormon scripture teaches that there is no other name or means whereby salvation can come but by Christ:
MOSIAH 3:17-18
2 NEPHI 31:21.
The Bible teaches that men can call on no name but Jesus to save them:
JOHN 1:12 5:24
ACTS 4:12 16:30-34
ROMANS 1:16-17
2 CORINTHIANS 6:2
HEBREWS 2:1-4
1 TIMOTHY 2:5
TITUS 3:4-7
1 JOHN 5:9-11
Mormon Doctrine teaches that baptism for the dead is necessary for salvation:
Teachings pg 193
A of F. PG 152
D and C 128:15
Mormon scripture teaches that there is no chance for salvation after death:
ALMA 34:33-35
The Bible teaches that there are no second chances for salvation after death:
Psalms 49:7-8
Proverbs 11:7
Ecclesiastes 9:10
Luke 16:26-31
Hebrews 9:27.
Remember, as I pointed out already, Bruce Mc Conkie said that anything less than exaltion is damnation. This goes against the Bible and the verses I gave. I own all sources I quote from. Let me recap my beliefs here. I believe God was always God, and there is and forever will be only one God. I believe in the trinity. I believe salvation comes to all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. I look forward to your thoughts on what has been written here. Rick B.
"Some quietly listen to those who speak against the Lord's servants, against his annointed, against the plurality of wives, and against almost every principle that God has revealed. Such persons have a half dozen devils with them all the time. YOU MIGHT AS WELL DENY "MORMONISM," AND TURN AWAY FROM IT, AS TO OPPOSE THE PLURALITY OF WIVES. Let the presidency of this church, and the twelve apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose that doctrine, and the whole of them would be damned." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 203)
Let us add to D and C 132, verses 1 and 2; I will start on 3. "Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same. 4. For behold, I reveal unto you a new and everlasting covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory. I would like to point out some things here. First off, in D and C 1:14 it says we must obey the Lord, the apostles, and the prophets or we will be cut off.
Who gave this new and everlasting covenent? The Lord did. Since when does everlasting mean only 60 plus years? The Lord said, "For all who have this law revealed unto them MUST obey it." Well, if you read D and C or just read what I wrote, you fall under all who have it revealed unto them. now you must obey it. Not only are Mormons not following D and C 1:14, but the concept of on-going revelation now shows its flaws. Ezra Taft Benson taught that the prophet does not need to say, "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture. The Lord was clear when he gave us that scripture, but the council backed it up as I stated above.
Then, Ezra Taft Benson also taught that the prophet cannot lead the church astray. so which prophet is leading us astray? The prophets of old followed and taught it, but now it is denied. Hebrews 6:16 say that it is impossible for God to lie, as well as Titus 1:2, Enos 6, Ether 3:12, and D and C 62:6. All of these teach that God cannot lie. So, did God lie? He states that it is a new and everlasting covenent. Again, since when is everlasting only 60 plus years? If God did not lie, then who did? Mormons teach that the plural wife teaching was for a select few men; God said it was for all that it was revealed unto. If you heard it, it was revealed unto you, why are you not obeying it?
Now, let's look to the Book of Mormon. In Jacob 1:15-19 and 2:21-25, it teaches that David and Solomon did evil by having many wives. Then, in Mosiah 11:2, it teaches many wives is a sin. Now, here is a contradiction because in D and C 132:37-39, it says it was not a sin for David, Solomon and others to have many wives. Now, I thought God could not lie? But God's word is both in the B.O.M and D and C, so either man wrote it and messed up or God lied. This is just my thoughts looking at the Mormon scriptures. Rick B.
"That Jesus I worship, the Jesus in the Bible, gave certain requirements for me to accept His free gift. There is a paradox there, but it is one that every Christian embraces. We accept His free gift of grace when we believe and are baptized. Every major Christian denomination–Evangelicals, Methodists, Baptists, Episcopalians, Anglicans, Catholics, Presbyterians, Greek Orthodox (I hope I'm not leaving anyone out, this list is just off the top of my head)–agree that belief and baptism are, at a baseline, requirements to receive grace."
Requirements to receive Grace? If you are required to do stuff to receive grace, then grace is no more grace but a reward for your works. We´ve been through that before, and you´re completely wrong about those religions you mentioned agreeing that baptism is a requirement for someone to receive Salvation. It´s all the work of God, not ours. God gives us the faith that lead us to repentance and full and complete Salvation. Then we are free to live the life we were supposed to live in God´s eye if it wasn´t for the fall of Adam, which is a life of good works. Those good works don´t save us, and they are only good works when done by us after our Salvation.
Baptism in the Mormon Church is not a means by which you receive grace, it is something that you have to do to be Saved. There´s a gigantic difference. Will people be saved without baptism? Most people that are saved will be saved without it. Jesus talked about Abraham in His kingdom, yet Abraham wasn´t baptized! The entire nation of Israel through time until John the Baptist wasn´t baptized. So baptism is a means by which God bestows grace, but it is not a work we HAVE TO DO to be saved, we are saved by Grace alone. Also that grace he talks about there(talking about baptism) is not THE Grace of Salvation.
"You (or at least the orthodox among you) believe that a person must believe and be baptized before they receive the free gift."
Again, how is it a FREE gift if you´re required to work for it?!?!?!?! I understand that concept is too hard for a mormon to grasp. You want to start understanding it? Choose a person you hate, buy that person a gift and give it to the person without any reason whatsoever. That´s not even close to represent what God did for us through Jesus, but it will maybe start helping you understand the concept of a FREE GIFT.
"I too believe that, but I add a couple of things to the list. Those things DO NOT PURCHASE, EARN"
Oh, they don´t? Really? Please, who is going to believe that after Rick provided those quotes that prove you 100% wrong, unless, of course, what your leadership says means nothing to you.
"But you have a list and I have a list"
No, we don´t. You´re just blind and not able to see that. Pray that God will open your eyes so that you can understand what a free gift means.
"It might not be the way you have understood Mormonism in the past, and for that I am sincerely sorry, but my version is absolutely mainstream and canonical"
Was Hitler who said if you repeat a lie long enough people will eventually believe it? Terceiro, you´re not fooling anyone here – that´s not orthodox mormonism, i wasn´t trained to teach that when i was in the MTC, on my Mission, or never had any lesson in sunday school, seminary, institute that presented mormon doctrine that way, and it is not in any manual – so, keep repeating yourself if you want to but nobody is buying.
"I follow because I love Him"
You still haven´t answered my questions and i think that´s on purpose. Do you love God? So do you keep all of His commandments perfectly? If not, are you proving to God you don´t love Him and you´re a hypocrite for saying that here?
You´re avoiding answering my questions because you´re going to have to face the reality that even though you think you love God because you somewhat keep a set of arbitrarily chosen commandments, that reality is that it is impossible for anyone to keep God´s commandments perfectly. Yet 1 Ne. 3:7 says God always provides a way for His commandments to be kept. By that i can prove no mormon loves God in any way whatsoever. That´s where your doctrine falls apart and you´re exposed as a pitiful hypocrite.
"How lovely that we can each approach God individually, that we can each of us pray in our own language to our creator, that we can feel the humbling Spirit as we contemplate the loving sacrifice of the Only Begotten"
Oh, dear… Terceiro, i´ll believe that you were honest when you wrote that if you send all the Mormon missionaries home and tell them to stop disturbing people in their daily individual worship of God and of Jesus. If we believe the same, and the difference is just what the "requirements" are, why bother sending missionaries to convert Christians who ALREADY believe that?!?!!?!? Prove to us you´re honest, c´mon!
"It's Sunday and I have a primary lesson to teach (I'm substituting today, but the lesson is a great one, "Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
The title of that lesson should actually be "Jesus Christ, the most advanced among many other sons of God"
I´ll continue the conversation when you actually answer my questions.
We worship Jesus because He is God. He is not the literal son of God. He is God. Your Jesus progressed backwards through all eternity and His God will be a man who progesses to become God forward through all eternity. We have one God everlasting to everlasting. (See Aaron's posts God was a Sinner.) Your Jesus was imperfect who progressed to become God. And you too, if perfect enough, will become a God, on your own planet, producing your own spirit children that live in a pre-existence, and if you do everything right in this life, will have children so you can bring the spirits of those in the pre-existence, into this existence (making physical bodies for the spirits.) No doubt you are in a total authoritarian pyramid cult, where you confess your sins to a man, must tithe, keep the covenants you make in the temple, be temple worthy, but then protest that you don't have to 'do' anything in this life that you are just like Christians. No you are not. We have a hell. You have outer darkness. One minute God says black men cannot hold the priesthood. Then in 1978 Mitt Romney is pulling over in his car crying his eyes out because God changed his mind and said that black men could own the priesthood. One minute polygamy, then God said no polygamy. Our God doesn't go around changing his mind (coincidentally, when men find it convenient to have it changed because the culture demands it.) God says it is not what you put in your mouth that makes you holy, but what is in your heart. You need to check your heart. We believe in original sin. And Christianity believes our debt was paid in full on the cross, not in Gethsemane. 'who suffered for the sins of the whole world in Gethsemane.' That is a convenient way of getting Jesus, the cross out of your path, putting the 'family, church, good works,' in the path between you and God. God, (Jesus) one in the same, tore the veil. He stood between us and God. Mormonism demands we all be Mormon. How absurd. You do not worship the same Jesus. There is nothing the same. We have trinity. You have 'all other churches are an abomination.' How dare JS say God told him all other churches are corrupt. He is the church. We are the church. You are teaching children falsely. You will have to pay a debt to that.