On July 7th (2011) Politico drew attention to a local news report in Memphis that showed man-on-the-street interviews about Mormon teachings. The context of the relevance for the news report was the presidential campaign; this was one report in a series of four that the station had aired in one day (July 4th). In this particular segment, asking “the questions somewhat joking with them and trying to be a little bit light-hearted,” the reporter appeared to treat little-known Mormon doctrines with disdain. He asked people things like, “Can you name the candidate that’s running for president that believes that if he’s a good person in his religion he will receive his own planet?” And, “What country do you think hosts the Garden of Eden? Did you know it’s in America?”
The news report has caused public outcry from Mormons and non-Mormons alike. It has been condemned as “offensive,” a “disgusting underhanded attack,” “shameful,” “distasteful,” “stupid,” and, of course, “anti-mormon” (to list just a few epithets).
Reading about how upset people have been over the news reporter “making fun” of Mormonism made me wonder why nobody has raised a public eyebrow over the LDS Church-sponsored mocking of Christian doctrines that is depicted at the Mormon Miracle Pageant in Manti, Utah every year.
During a 2011 performance, Christian evangelist Russ Bales filmed this early scene of the pageant:
In this short clip, the Mormon Church pageant makes fun of the Christian doctrines pertaining to the nature of God and eternal punishment, portrays Christian pastors as being unwilling or unable to answer the most basic of life’s questions, and misrepresents the “fervor of religious revival” with “the exhortations of contending preachers, each proclaiming his own church the only avenue of escape from the horrors of a burning hell.” The narrator jeers, “Amen, Hallelujah”; one of three pontificating preachers drones, “It is only here that you will find salvation. Only here,” while churchgoers dismiss the play’s sincere truth-seekers, Mary and Robert, with an annoyed sweep of their arms.
Is the tone of this scene in the Mormon Miracle Pageant substantially different from that of the Memphis news station’s man-on-the-street segment? Some may think the Pageant scene should also be condemned as “offensive,” a “disgusting underhanded attack,” “shameful,” “distasteful,” “stupid,” and “anti-[Christian].” What do you think?
—————-
Thursday’s Mormon Coffee blog post will take a look at the LDS doctrine that promises planets to the faithful (as mentioned in the Memphis news report).
Oh Brother!
Here’s the message: There’s all this confusion and preachers preaching different messages. Isn’t there someone some where that can bring us the truth. Yea harken brothers and sisters to the restored gospel of Joseph Smith if you want answers and the truth.
I often wonder why Mormons don’t really comprehend the Gospel of Jesus Christ and now I know why. These folks are fed a constant message of misinformation about the basic doctrines of the Christian faith while at the same time getting a Mormon message that leaves out and hides the essentials of the faith and history of the LDS church.
Mormons absolutely hate it when the doctrines of the Mormon church are exposed. Men becoming gods and ruling their own planets is the basic foundation of Mormonism. It gets at the nature of God and man from the Mormon perspective. That’s basically all someone needs to know about Mormonism to reject it.
I don’t get all upset if someone broadcasts that Christians believe we are lost in sin and need a Savior; that I am be nature a sinner. I also don’t mind if they say I believe in One God with three persons in the Godhead; Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
But Mormons are stuck with mother-father gods/goddesses, procreation of spirit babies, planet ruling and of course a founder who used a magic rock in his hat as a divination tool to produce a “gospel” message that has no basis in real history.
Time for the Mormon persecution card.
I think its a pretty effective critique of the essential problem of Sola scriptura. Its not much different than what you hear from Catholics, who also raise that point. Dozens of different churches saying wildly contradictory things all based on a clear reading of the bible.
If you want a less fascicle approach:
Hermeneutics and the Authority of Scripture, Sola vs. Solo Scriptura, The Canon of Scripture (I will warn the people here that while the articles are absolutely first rate, the actually discussion is moderated in a way that is quite unfair to Protestants.)
Generally you all consider pointing out problems to Mormons in their theology to be loving. Well this is turn around. A place where they are engaging with Evangelical Christianity in the area of serious critiques and contradictions. Arguably probably the most serious flaw in the entire viewpoint. The bible unquestionably teaches that heresy and schism are objective matters of fact and highly negative actions. While Protestantism has created a situation where perforce a minimum of 90% of the community must be engaged in heresy and schism.
I’ll comment that this argument doesn’t apply to pure baptists, like Landmark Baptists, who don’t see any structure beyond the local church nor believe strongly in a doctrine of heresy. That is a fully functioning defense but arguably undermines many of the anti-Mormon arguments made as well.
I think its a great video. I suggest looking at it again, and listening to the argument being made. Its a terrific presentation of exactly the point I was making a few hours ago 2 threads down.
falcon,
I get so tired of hearing that Mormons are persecuted. Christians all over the world are being persecuted and killed for their belief in Christianity. It’s estimated that a Christian is killed every 5 minutes worldwide. When is the last time a Mormon was killed for their belief in Mormonism? When was the last time a Mormon was truly persecuted, as in thrown in a fire or cut with a piece of glass or raped or beaten? You can read news stories of recent Christian persecutions. I’m sorry, but showing Mormons their doctrines is not persecution. Was the man in this article a bit disrespectful? Probably, but not as disrespectful as I found the video of the Mormon miracle pageant. Here is a link to true persecution of Christians:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/12/23/christians-face-rising-persecution-experts-say/
Kate,
I have zero experience in the Mormon church culture so maybe you can help me out here. When you were a Mormon, did Mormons talk about Christians? Were there assumptions made about Christians and the Christian faith that since you’ve left the LDS church you’ve found to be false? Also, was there any type of arrogance in the tone of the Mormons you knew in regards to Christians? Is mocking towards Christianity simply apart of the Mormon experience?
Mormons and Mormonism isn’t even on the radar screen of Christians in the area I live in. I’m really an anomaly in that I’m interested in Christian apologetics and cults. People don’t know enough about Mormonism to mock it.
Maybe someone should put on the Broadway play “Book Of Mormon” out there in Manti next summer to counter the play put on at the Mormon pageant. I just talked to someone who was in New York City last week and went to the play. I guess the language is pretty rough.
Joseph Smith’s whole program was to be in opposition to the Christian religion. He forged his own religious market niche. In his day, there was a lot of religious experimentation and the emergence of some pretty strange and aberrant groups, Mormonism among them. Mocking Christian denominations was Smith’s program. You remember the line from his first vision, pick a version, where God supposedly told him not to join any church and that their creeds were an abomination and he was to “restore” original Christianity.
I see it all as pretty juvenile but that’s what Smith was all about.
What an interesting video of the Manti pageant, Sharon. I have never been to this pageant. My first reaction was surprise. Below, I’ve summarized the video, adding some observations:
At the first gathering Mary and her friend attend, they hear A) Judgment is coming, B) We can’t hide our sins from an omnipresent God, and C) We are all sinners. Think what that means for a moment. Mary stands in real danger. Perhaps uncomfortable by this, she changes the subject, blurting out, “But why are we here? What is the purpose of life?” The couple don’t seem to wait for an answer before hurrying off. (The Bible’s answer? To glorify God and enjoy Him forever.)
Next, Mary and her friend arrive at another gathering, and listen to what Jesus told the thief on the Cross. This criminal is told that on this very day, he shall be with Jesus in paradise. Mary has just heard something incredible: a criminal is going to be with Jesus in paradise. Mary could have asked, “But how would God allow such a sinner to go somewhere so wonderful? And actually live with Jesus?” Instead, Mary asks the comparatively trivial, “But where is paradise?” And then, quite oddly, “Did we come from there?” Mary’s friend quickly tells her she won’t hear the answers here either.
At the final gathering, Mary and her friend hear about death: It shall separate her from her kinsmen. Then she shall be alone. Either in heaven where there is peace, or in the infernal pit. Oddly, this suggests if Mary goes to heaven, she will be the only one there, for she shall be alone. No mention at all of God.
When Mary heard of her own condition, and God’s solution, she mostly wanted to change the subject.
Mormons enjoy crying “persecution”, because it gives them a sense of being right. Christ said his followers would be persecuted, so because they feel they belong to the right system, they’re quick to respond with “stop persecuting us!” The majority of lds I have come into contact with that like to boast of persecution don’t seem to really understand what it means. Like Kate said, pointing out their own doctrines that they’re not particularly fond of doesn’t quite count. When there are people being arrested and actually physically persecuted for their beliefs, it’s hard to take something as trivial as sarcasm as serious “persecution”. The guy was probably a little rude, but really, every religion deals with critics. Mormons could’ve just done what Christians do when something offensive to them is being broadcasted… turn it off. I think the biggest issue I have is when Mormons whine about persecution, yet they deliberately mock Christians (and other religions) behind closed doors. In front of the world, they put on a “we accept everyone” face; but within their own circles, they enjoy discussions that poke fun at Christians. And yes, I’ve witnessed it within my own family, a lot of it being aimed at myself (but masked as “just teasing” or “just trying to have a discussion”).
Falcon, in my experience from my 6 or so years in the Mormon chruch, I never heard anyone say anything but other churches all had good on them. See here is the problem, first of all most mormons do not know what they beleive, especially if they have grown up in the chruch all of their lives and if they do know what they believe, they certainly don’t tell those outside the chruch of their belief that they are the only true chruch and they will not admit, if they beleive that they themselves goal is to become a God. My experience, is that moromons have to kind of walk with God at all and what they do beleive is very surface. Its kind of like Jared, who was FLDS, who when asked point blank if he bleived he was going to become a god, kept repeating that was what he was striving for, but he did not know for sure.
I meant to put mormons have no kind of walk with God at all. There is no personal relationship with Jesus Chirst, except to say He is our elder brother. The cross in nonexitent and communion (or what they call the sacrament) is just a vain tradition and there is no explanation as what it means. The same with baptism, its just what you do to become part of the church. There is no talk of the body of Christ, what Christ did for us on the cross or anything of that nature.
Brian —
Great post.
“But why are we here? What is the purpose of life?” The couple don’t seem to wait for an answer before hurrying off. (The Bible’s answer? To glorify God and enjoy Him forever.)
But that actually isn’t an answer. How does mortal existence assist in glorifying God and enjoying him. If his goal was just to little beings who glorify him, why does he need a mortal phase at all? Further what need does God have for glory? And if God has no need and the need is ours, what create being who are deficient in the giving glory realm in the first place? Why not just create being that have already given sufficient glory?
You aren’t actually answering Mary’s question. But at least you are engaging with it, which is good.
Instead, Mary asks the comparatively trivial, “But where is paradise?”
Tomorrow you boss tells you, “tomorrow I’m relocating you for two weeks to G‘ijduvon to assist the Senior Vice President for XYZ”. You first concern is, “where is G‘ijduvon?” (Ans: Uzbekistan). Seems like a pretty natural question to me.
And then, quite oddly, “Did we come from there?”
Not so odd really. Where do souls come from? Do they pre-exist the body? Are they created during gestation? Are they transfered with semen? I would bet less than 1 in a 100 protestants would get those questions “right”. In my experience, a substantial percentage of Protestants actually advocate a heresy called Traducianism when trying to answer that question and end up with the father being the cause of souls rather than God.
I know that in football you get a 15 yard penalty for taunting! The point is to keep the contest free of un-needed displays of emotion that will denigrate the game and cause a lowering of sportsmanship. Christians get mocked and ridiculed in the media all of the time. They’re portrayed as being stupid, narrow-minded and corrupt. There’s no referee available to throw a flag and enforce a penalty.
I know there is an organization of Catholics that are very vocal and won’t give any quarter to gratuitous Catholic bashing. It’s a hard call because on the one hand we are called to have the character of Jesus but if a a person of faith doesn’t stand up for themselves or their group, they’ll get more of the same.
This dramatic presentation has a very special place in Mormonism. It provides a reinforcement of stereotypes that are important within the Mormon narrative. Mormons have to believe that their religion was a response from God to a corrupt religion that had gone into apostasy. It doesn’t matter that it’s not true, that belief is necessary or there’s no need for Mormonism.
If unsportsmanlike conduct penalties were given for religious mocking, the stage at the Manti Pageant would be littered with yellow flags based on the above performance. The whole point of the play is to set-up a situation where by a “solution” will be offered for a supposed “problem”. The “problem” here is that people were confused and frustrated by the religious preachers.
Joseph Smith did grow up in a time when religious experimentation was in full throttle-on mode. If there was confusion it wasn’t among the denominational churches, it was among the religious experimenters. Smith was a great religious experimenter and he had the personality and hutzpah to pull it off. He played the “revelation” card to the max and all it took was for folks who were willing to buy-into his flim flam, to accept it (revelation) and he had it made. Fawn Brodie’s book, “No Man Knows My History” is a marvelous expose of Smith’s evolutionary approach to his religious thought. Joseph Smith didn’t come up with his ideas on polygamy, temple rituals and even the Celestial Kingdom on his own and he didn’t get them from spiritual revelation.
He certainly had an appetite for creative and innovative approaches to religion. This propensity of his was passed on to his followers who, like BY, never met an odd or peculiar thought they didn’t like or embrace.
These religious conventions and convictions are bound to invite scrutiny and evaluation. This is something that Mormonism can’t tolerate therefore their attempts to hold-off critics by claiming persecution.
falcon,
The answer to your questions to me is yes. The doctrine of the Trinity is mocked, Cross jewelry is mocked, Crosses hung in someone’s house is mocked, baptism by sprinkling is mocked, Salvation by Grace in mocked, Hail Mary’s are mocked, paying the Priest is mocked, my Christian Church is mocked ( called that “weird little church on the hill” and who know what goes on there!), there are more but you get the idea. I know that some of these things come from the Catholic religion and aren’t what is practiced by some here. I had an argument with my mom in the beginning of my leaving, I was telling her that Satan is not my spirit brother, that he was an angel who rebelled against God and she about had a coronary (and she mocked me). After the dust settled ( a few days later) she came to me and said that yes Satan was an angel. Apparently she had looked in the Bible. That’s as far as it went I’m sorry to say. She has found a way to incorporate that into her beliefs. Mormonism DOES mock Christianity as you have shown from the first vision accounts. I would sit in Relief Society in the last Ward that I was in and listen to the old women talk about other Christian faiths in a mocking way. Yes it happened in this certain Ward, I will say that whoever was teaching the lesson would keep changing the subject to get them back on track. Not all Mormons are horrible about it, but how can they not at least feel it when they are exposed to things such as the Mormon miracle pageant?
Kate,
I don’t know if you’ve ever seen the testimony of the young man (whose name I now forget) with the band “Adam’s Road”. He talks about being in a religion class at BYU and the instructor plays a video of some Christian worship services, contemporary in nature I think, and begins mocking the service. This young man is looking at it and thinking, “Man that’s pretty cool worship.” So he goes on his LDS mission and guess what happens? He encounters a Baptist pastor and presents the Mormon restored gospel and then gives the pastor a chance to respond. He says that within a couple of minutes the pastor totally destroyed everything he believed in.
Was the pastor mocking? No, but he did give a strong defense of the Gospel. To make a long story short, the young man starts reading the Bible in earnest and while on his mission becomes a Christian.
I believe that God used that incident in the BYU class to draw that young man to Himself and what was mocking became the pathway to salvation.
Kate,
The young man’s name is Micah Wilder and here’s a link to a blog called “Mormon Coffee”. I wonder what that blog is about? Anyway, if you haven’t seen it, it’s worth the time to watch it. I don’t get tired of hearing Micah’s story.
http://blog.mrm.org/2009/11/ex-lds-micah-wilder-saved-by-jesus-christ/
falcon,
Sorry I was in a hurry this morning. You also asked me: “Were there assumptions made about Christians and the Christian faith that since you’ve left the LDS church you’ve found to be false?”
Oh boy, where to start. I always thought that if I went to the Christian church that I would have to do something weird like eat a live chicken or something! I’m being serious. I’m not sure why I believed that other than my family telling me how weird it is. I was told that Christians stand up and wave arms, shout and fall into trances and are just plain not “in tune” with the spirit because the spirit doesn’t reside in other churches because they don’ t have the truth. I don’t remember hearing any of that at church (other than Christians don’t have the truth or the Spirit because they didn’t receive it by the laying on of hands), just at home and relatives houses. Imagine my surprise when I walked into my Christian church (on the hill) and all I saw and heard that day was Jesus. Everything was Jesus. No one was doing the things that I had been told. That first experience of actually worshiping the Lord was wonderful. So nice to actually learn about him and not have to hear about my 72 hour kit!
I have learned a lot about the Christian faith. I have learned that what I was taught about Christian doctrines ( Holy Trinity, Salvation by Grace, etc.) was false. Mormonism really is another gospel.
“God’s purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God. And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.” Ephesians 1:12–13 NLT
Hi CD-Host,
Thanks for participating at this forum. It’s good to have you here. (I have many LDS friends and family members, and love them dearly.) I enjoyed your thoughtful questions you’ve written about my posting.
If it’s all right, I thought I’d look at your first group of questions:
1. “How does mortal existence assist in glorifying God and enjoying him?”
Well, I’m not sure whether my mere existing would bring God any glory, or cause me to enjoy him. If not existence, then what? I believe the answer is found in God himself: What God is like and what he has done. I believe that God has taken away my sins (past, present, and future) forever on the basis of having been judged for my sins on the Cross. I believe I already have eternal life, given me from a very loving God. I believe God is perfectly faithful, and will do what he has promised in his word. Trusting in this also brings him glory (Romans 4:20–22). And telling others about the love of God revealed in Christ Jesus brings God glory. And we experience a relationship with God through his Son. This is how we come to know God and enjoy being friends of God.
(Continues)
(Continues)
2. “If his goal was just to little beings who glorify him, why does he need a mortal phase at all?”
Whether dense or in need of longer sleep, I’m having a little trouble understanding. I think God created us so he could know us personally. When we know him, we want to tell others about what he has done for us. This brings him glory, when other receive him and come to know him too. The reason the Christian is on earth is to bring God glory.
As to needing a mortal phase, this is where I’m confused. A ‘mortal phase’ would mean a death phase? Well, the Bible tells me something amazing: I was once dead. Really? Well, there is it, in the beginning of Ephesians 2: “Once you were dead.” I was once spiritually dead. Then God made me alive (John 5:24).
3. Further what need does God have for glory? And if God has no need and the need is ours, what create being who are deficient in the giving glory realm in the first place? Why not just create being that have already given sufficient glory?
Is glory a need of God? Or is glory’s proper object … God? Paul tells us that may it never be that he would boast (that is, glory) in anything but the Cross (Galatians 6:14). The Cross is a picture of what God has done to make me righteous. Since God has done the doing, he alone receives the glory.
I hope I’ve not been overly long, CD-Host. I hope you don’t think I’m talking down to you. Once, I didn’t know God. I was lost. And God, apart from any merit I could boast of, found me and made me his forever. I like to tell others what God has done for me.
Kate, it’s amazing on how you were controlled by lies and then to find out
the truth for yourself when you attended that Church. My wife had a similar
experience in the religious organization she was a member of. She submitted
to a modern day prophet .One of the major selling points that this group
used to win her over was that only they knew and used God’s personal name
which they said was Jehovah. “Christendom” , as they called all other churches,
did’nt really honor God because they did’nt reference Him by His name etc.
Just after she had left this group she was driving along and decided to turn on
the radio. As she looked for a channel with music she happened on someone
singing praises to God , and he called God , Jehovah ! She was stunned !!!
She had to pull over to the side of the road. “They lied to me” is all she could
think about. This started her towards turning her life over to Jesus.
Hi Brian. Thank you for the answer. Just so you know I’m not LDS. I consider myself a fan, not a member.
CD/Mary: How does mortal existence assist in glorifying God and enjoying him?”
Brian: … And telling others about the love of God revealed in Christ Jesus brings God glory…
Remember the question Mary is raising, why are we earthly. Your response so far seems to be to glorify God, and “telling” in an earthly sense bring God glory. Well what specific about earthly telling that makes it glorifying?
CD: If his goal was just to little beings who glorify him, why does he need a mortal phase at all?”
Brian: I think God created us so he could know us personally.
So the purpose isn’t to glorify God but rather to create a relationship?
A ‘mortal phase’ would mean a death phase?
Yes and no. A phase in which we were susceptible to mortality. In which we had an non fully spiritual existence.
CD/Mary: Further what need does God have for glory? And if God has no need and the need is ours, what create being who are deficient in the giving glory realm in the first place? Why not just create being that have already given sufficient glory?
Brian: Is glory a need of God? Or is glory’s proper object …
But above you were saying that God created man so that he could be glorified. I.E. either he’s filling of need of his, farming glory though man; or his filling a need of humans they need an object to glorify. But if that is the case why create man deficient?
Mary was asking serious questions about salvation doctrines.
Kate,
I’m wondering what the motive of your family was spinning such big whoppers regarding the Christian Church? Don’t they know any better? In-other-words are they just ignorant? Is their motivation to try and keep people in the LDS church and do it by casting dispersions on the Christian church? Fear seems to be what cults and other aberrant groups use as the main psychological tool to keep people in the group. I don’t know, maybe they saw a documentary on the snake-handling sects and generalized it to all Christian churches.
See the problem with their approach is that once you found out the truth, it really ticked you off. That’s a pretty standard reaction. When you think about it, what your family did goes beyond mocking and gets to bearing false witness. That’s a very serious thing. I would say that the drama from the Manti Pageant video exposes Mormonism as a whole and demonstrates institutionalized bearing of false witness.
But the good news is that you found new life in Christ and having been touched by the Holy Ghost your thinking was set right and you were set free in Jesus.
Kate,
I wish I could make available to you and the rest of the posters and readers Issue 45 of Christian History magazine. It’s devoted to “Camp Meetings & Circuit Riders: Untamed Faith on America’s Early Frontier”. One of the articles is about the autobiography of Peter Cartwright. The introduction to the article says: “His Autobiography tells us not only about Cartwright, but also about his era. For example, his lengthy, anguished conversion was not untypical; it illustrates how spiritual matters were of grave concern in his day.”
On page 2o of the article there is a section titled: “Driving off the Mormons”. I’ll excerpt some of it to give you the impression this frontier preacher had of Joseph Smith.
“Cartwright was the prototype of the rough, battling circuit rider, as this excerpt shows. It also shows the frontier as a religious free market, where dynamic leaders and groups-Baptists, Shakers, Mormons, among others-competed fiercely for souls.”
About Joseph Smith he says: ” I found him to be a very illiterate and imprudent desperado in morals, but, at the same time, he had a vast fund of low cunning. In the first place, he made his onset on me by flattery, and he laid on the soft dodder thick and fast. He expressed great and almost unbounded pleasure in the high privilege of becoming acquainted with me, one of whom he had heard so many great and good things. And he had no doubt I was one among God’s noblest creatures, and honest man.
He believed that among all the churches in the world the Methodist was the nearest right, and that, as far as they went, they were right.
cont.
But they had stopped short by not claiming the gift of tongues, of prophecy, and of miracles, and then quoted a batch of Scripture to prove his positions correct.
Upon the whole, he did pretty well for clumsy Joe. I gave him rope, as the sailors say, and indeed, I seemed to lay this plattering unction pleasurably to my soul.
‘Indeed,’ said Joe, ‘if the Methodists would only advance a step or two further, they would take the world. And if you would come in and go with us, we could sweep not only the Methodist church, but all others, and you would be looked up to as one of the Lord’s greatest prophets. You would be honored by countless thousands, and have of the good things of this world all that heart could wish.’
I then began to inquire into some of the tenets of the Latter-Day Saints. He explained. I criticized his explanation till, unfortunately, we got into high debate.
The next pass he made at me was to move upon my fears. He said that in all ages of the world, the good and right way was evil spoken of, and that it was an awful thing to fight against God.
‘Now,” said he, ‘if you will go with me to Nauvoo, I will show you many living witnesses that will testify that they were, by the saints, cured of blindness, lameness, deafness, dumbness, and all the diseases that human flesh is heir to. And I will show you,’ said he, ‘that we have the gift of tongues, and can speak in unknown languages, and that the saints can drink any deadly poison,
cont.
and it will not hurt them.’ He closed by saying, ‘The idle stories you hear about us are nothing but sheer persecution.’………
(Cartwright relates a story he told Smith about an encounter he had had with some Mormons at a previous camp meeting. The encounter did not put the Mormons in good light and agitated Smith.)
My friend Joe Smith became very restive before I got through with my narrative. And when I closed, his wrath boiled over, and he cursed me in the name of his God and said, ‘I will show you sir, that I will raise up a government in these United States which will overturn the present government, and I will raise up a new religion that will overturn every other form of religion in this country!’
‘Yes,’ said I, ‘Uncle Joe; but my Bible tells me ‘the bloody and deceitful man shall not live out half his days,’ and I expect the Lord will send the Devil after you some of these days and take you out of the way.’
‘No, sir,’ said he; ‘I shall live and prosper, while you will die in your sins.’
‘Well , sir,’ said I, ; if you live and prosper, you must quit your stealing and abominable whoredoms!’
Thus we parted, to meet no more on earth; for in a few years after this, an outraged and deeply injured people took the law into their own hands and killed him, and drove the Mormons from the state.
This account gives an impression of the type of relations Joseph Smith and the Mormons had with Christian believers at this time. Is it any wonder that the Pageant at Manti mocks and ridicules Christians and Christianity to this day.
BTW Brian to see what Mary was getting at. Here is the clip right after the one you just watched where they talk to Joseph Smith:
next 2 minutes
And you can see he actually addresses her questions.
____
Its funny your answers actually mirrored the play. She (and I in repeating her questions) were asking questions about the purpose of life any why be earthly and you kept trying to steer the question back to salvation theology in good 1Cor 2:2 fashion. But if you look at 1Cor 1:20-24, . To play with that verse use that expression Mary wanted the wisdom of Greeks, the signs of the Jews and the faith of the cross (well at least Gethsemane Mosiah 3:5-12) all 3. And Joseph Smith gives it to her.
Very powerful stuff.
I do think the level of mocking has a lot to do with what part of the country you are in. Like falcon, most of the Christians where I live are completely clueless to Mormon beliefs. Many lds are moving here, so it’s becoming more of a “oh yeah, I have a friend who is a mormon” type thing… but for the most part, it’s not on their radar. Wherever Mormons are the minority (especially if they’ve grown up as a minority), they are much more open-minded and less arrogant when dealing with people of other belief systems. I have several Mormon friends, and I actually like them because they don’t make our religious differences the main topic of discussion. They respect me, and we can have decent conversations without it ever getting heated. I’ve said it before, the Mormons raised here refer to Utah Mormons as “U-tards”. They can’t stand the arrogance and the mindset that these people are in. They’ll debate with other Mormons about their own religion. They talk down to other Mormons that don’t live in Utah or Idaho, as if they must know more because they live in a holy land. As you get closer and closer to the Mormon Mecca, the more likely you are to hear mocking. And it’s not just to Christians.
falcon,
You ask what the motive of my family could be. I don’t think they really had a motive. I think it’s just something that has been passed down for generations. Look at the Mormon miracle pageant. What were the preachers doing? Shouting and waving about. In Mormonism, reverence is very important. Especially in the chapel. It’s disrespectful to God to be irreverent. I think because Mormons claim and believe that they are the ONLY TRUE CHURCH, they have to make all other churches less than they are in their minds. Now, it’s a whole different ballgame if someone does that to them. What they don’t understand and what I have learned is that Christ’s Church is made up of believers. It’s not a building or multimillion dollar corporation.
Interesting article you quote from. I have read stuff about Joseph Smith and what he and the Mormons were actually like. I no longer buy into Mormons being horribly persecuted. Yes, horrible things were done such as Haun’s Mill, but the facts of what Joseph Smith and his Mormons were doing before that happened, that actually built up to that, is never, ever, mentioned by any Mormon that I know. I highly doubt they know about it. The Mormon’s were NOT innocent bystanders in all that happened. They sure like to play that part though.
CD host, I don’t really understand your point. In Luke 20:34-35 “Jesus answered and said to them (the cheif scribes and elders) “But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the ressurectin of the dead, neither marry or are given in marriage.” It is clear from this passage that there is no marriage in heaven and yet Joseph Smith proclaimed that he received revelation beyond what the The Lord Jesus Christ gave us. I really am wondering what your real motivation is for being here. I can state clearly I am here in the hopes that people who are deceived by morminism will see the truth and look to Jesus Christ alone as the One that they follow.
Having once been a member of that chruch, which you have not been (but that is assuming you are forthright in your claim that you are not a member) I can say with conviction that mormons do not follow Christ. Yest they claim the name of Chirst, but they are truely followers of Jospeh Smith and his conconcoted relegion. In fact I would challenge you to go on any facebook page of any mormon and look at what their status states about their releigion. I have not yet one that says that they are a Christian, but they will state The Chruch of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. I pray that my mormon friends will see the truth. Since it is hard to tell where you actually stand, but you seem to have a penchanbt for wanting to defend morminism, I pray for you to receive the Holy Spirit abnd be guided to the Truth of wah Jesus came here to do.
I post these comments with the utmost love toward you as my fellow man and in hopes you may seek out the truth. May the Lord of the universe, who was and is and is go come draw you to himself. This goes for all of my mormon friends and posters out there, as well.
Kate,
Just to give you an idea of what it was like on the frontier and in these camp meetings in the early 19th century, a caption under a picture/drawing in the Christian History article I quoted says: “Fighting Preachers. Circuit rider lore included an occasional confrontation with “rowdies.” Lorenzo Dow was threatened with pistols, and Peter Cartwright with clubs and whips and knives, and he would sometimes bring order with a fist to the jaw.”
*Many camp meetings lasted six days or even nine days. Eventually, four days became the fixed number, with meetings beginning on Friday afternoon or evening and continuing until Monday noon. One proverb said, “The good people go to camp meetings Friday, backsliders Saturday, rowdies Saturday night, and gentlemen and lady sinners Sunday.”
*At some camp meetings, watchmen carrying long white sticks patrolled the meeting grounds each evening to stop any sexual mischief. Enemies of camp meetings sneered that “more souls were begot than saved.”
*Drinking was such a problem at camp meetings that some states prohibited sale of intoxicating beverages within a one-or two mile radius of a meeting.
We have to remember that we are talking about the primitive frontier. A camp meeting was literally the only thing going on so all kinds of people would show-up just because there was a gathering and it provided something to do. It was so primitive that sites had to be prepared which included clearing the area by cutting down trees.
The preaching?
“An observer describing the preaching of James McGready, an early leader of camp meetings, said ‘McGready would so describe Heaven, that you would almost see its glories…..and he would so array hell and its horrors before the wicked, that they would tremble and quake, imagining a lake of fire and brimstone yawning to overwhelm them.’
The reason I’m posting about the camp meetings is because I think this is what is trying to be depicted in the Manti Pageant. It helps to put things into historical context or we don’t really get a good grasp of what the situation was like in the early 19th century.
*Defending camp meetings, James B. Finley said, ‘Much may be said about camp meetings, but, take them all in all, for practical exhibition of religion, for unbounded hospitality to strangers, for unfeigned and fervent spirituality, give me a country camp meeting against the world.’
*Many people at the early camp meetings displayed unusual physical manifestations: fainting, rolling, laughing, running, singing, dancing, and jerking-a spasmodic twitching of the entire body, where they hopped with head, limbs, and trunk shaking as if they must…fly asunder.
*In most early camp meetings, the focal point of the gathering was receiving Communion.
All-in-all, it was quite a scene but it lends context to Joseph Smith and the type of atmosphere from which he birthed Mormonism. In fact, Grant Palmer, author of “An Insiders View of Mormon Origins” commented in an interview that the “preachers” in the BoM resemble Methodist circuit riding preachers of that era.
*When Francis Asbury came to the colonies in 1771, there were only 600 American Methodists. When he died 45 years later, there were 200,000American Methodists. The number had grown from 1 in 5,000 to 1 in 40of the total population of the country, largely because of camp meetings and circuit riders.
*Circuit riders often had to endure jeers, mocking, and even death threats as they preached against sin. In response, some circuit riders physically assaulted hecklers, driving them from the meeting.
*I’ll reference “Counter-Culture Christianity: A look at the radical utopian communities that sprang up across the early frontier” in another post later.
The above referenced article begins: “The age of revivals and circuit riders saw the comet’s tail sweep across America and dazzle everyone with visions of glory. Europeans visiting the American wilderness and encountering a revival firsthand were convinced that Americans had gone mad. But the ecstasy was evident far beyond the shouts and jerks of the camp meetings.”
There was more to the story than revivals. What the rivals did was wet people’s appetites for an immediate encounter with God. In the fifty year period prior to the Civil War there was an explosion of social experimentation with about 120 different religious societies being formed. There was a commonality to these groups in that they each had a unique origin and personality. What the groups had in common was that each had a charismatic leader or innovator. These leaders had a vision and that vision created the religious community. The leaders’ firm will imposed order on the group.
Among these groups were the Oneida’s in New York, the Zoar in Ohio, Shakers in Kentucky, Brook Farm in Massachusetts, Amana in Iowa, and a black utopia called Nashoba in Tennessee.
The most famous Shaker was Ann Lee. She had received a revelation that the sex act was the cause of all human depravity. At the close of her life she performed miracles and received visions that had her followers believing in Christ’s imminent return. The Shaker church service included dancing, singing, speaking in tongues, bodily contortions, and even spiritualists who claimed to communicate with the dead. Another leader Joseph Meacham organized a Shaker society in Mount Lebanon, NY. Shaker communities prospered in Ohio, Indiana and Kentucky. These communities were communal in nature, holding property in common. The Shakers rejected sex, the sacraments and the inspiration of the Bible.
What I’ve attempted to do in the above posts is give the reader an appreciation of what was in the religious atmosphere at the time Joseph Smith founded the Mormons. His innovation was one of several religious movements of that era. In addition to this, traditional Christianity flourished as can be seen by the growth of the Methodist Church. Charles Finney, the great Christian evangelist of the time led revivals that saw many souls come to Christ.
Interestingly enough, if you read Finney’s account of his conversion, one gets a little suspicious that Joseph Smith appropriated some of Finney’s testimony into his own story. Finney went out into the woods to settle the issue of his salvation. As apart of the story he talks about a flood of liquid love pouring over him.
What most folks don’t understand is that in Smith’s original story, he went out into the woods to get assurance of the forgiveness of his sins. That was it, period! As time passed he embellished the story to include a visitation by heavenly beings including an angel called Moroni, God the Father, God the Son and also at another time I believe Peter and John and at least one more angel, this one with a sword, threatening Smith with death if he didn’t practice polygamy. A get out of jail card for adultery.
Having a dramatic story was very much apart of gaining a following. Getting special revelations and visions seasoned the accounts. Smith even mixed in a little folk magic and a common idea of the time, that the Jews were the ancestors of the American Indians. Being a good story teller and a very convincing individual, Joseph Smith parlayed these gifts and talents into creating his own religious society as many of that era were doing.
Sandi said to CD,
Sandi, I myself and a few others have said this before. I really wonder why a Guy who claims to be an athiest and does not believe in God, Defends Mormonism with more passion than even TBM, And yet trys to prove the Bible is false and tell Christians that what they believe is false. Really makes one wonder what this guy is up too? I think he is jsut trying to stir up trouble, and I stated to him before, no matter what he gives for a reason as to being here I will question his motives becasue the reason he gives, then the things he says or does seem to contrdict each other.
Sandi —
Great question. Let me just make a few comments.
First, the discussion Brian and I were having about the play was that Mary was asking a bunch of questions, and the Evangelical pastors couldn’t answer them. Evangelical Christianity has nothing to say about the topics she wanted to discuss. Joseph Smith provides answers to those questions in the next part of the scene. Your argument is that JS’ answers are wrong, which is somewhat different than addressing Mary’s complaint that Evangelical Christianity doesn’t have answers.
Second, given the Mormon view of the great apostasy I’m unclear why Mormons accept Luke/Acts, the pastoral epistles and 1Peter as scripture at all. Luke/Acts is an apology for Catholicism, so to my way of thinking under their understanding of the ancient world, it was written by the people who killed the “true church” justifying their actions. I’m asking that question over on a Mormon blog right now. But as of July 20th I have no clue how they reconcile that issue.
Third, with Luke there is a bit of a textual problem. The overwhelming majority of Greek manuscripts have Luke 12:34 the way you have it. The Syriac and the Old Latin conversely shift it to “they are born and begat before they marry and are given in marriage”, with a corresponding change in theology. Mormons seem to use translations that are Byzantine (i.e. the KJV) but Joseph Smith’s theories on this issue are much more Syrian, and given the language support I’m unclear which version of what “Jesus said” they work with.
CD-Host, hello!
I wanted to address your questions which, I kind of boil down to what “Mary” basically asked in the video: “What is our purpose in life?”
In Mormon beliefs, no one in the rest of Christianity ever has an answer for this. Let me put a condition on this – no one ever has a satisfying answer for this. I read once about a young man who went to several churches and kept asking questions like that and, when he didn’t get the answers he was looking for, he turned to Mormonism, which told him what he wanted to hear.
Mormons believe in a pre-existence. That before we became mortal and lived here on earth for our earthly life, that before that we lived in heaven with Heavenly Father. Mormon.org says: Your life didn’t begin at birth and it won’t end at death. Before you came to earth, your spirit lived with Heavenly Father who created you. You knew Him, and He knew and loved you. It was a happy time during which you were taught God’s plan of happiness and the path to true joy. But just as most of us leave our home and parents when we grow up, God knew you needed to do the same. He knew you couldn’t progress unless you left for a while. So he allowed you to come to earth to experience the joy—as well as pain—of a physical body.
(continued)
My first question is – why? It’s similar to what you asked. Why do we need a mortal phase at all? If we lived with God in heaven and were happy and were with him, why did he send us away from him? What Mormon.org says next — He knew you couldn’t progress unless you left for a while. — add to that explanation. Mormons believe in eternal progression – the idea that man, through their time away from God on earth, can earn his way not only back to God’s presence but also to becoming a god himself. That is what Mormons mean when they say “you couldn’t progress.”
But here’s the thing. That’s not what the Bible says.
We see all the way at the beginning of Genesis what our purpose is. Genesis 1: 26-28 reads:
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
(continued)
What is our purpose? To be fruitful, to increase in number, to fill the earth, to rule over the fish and the birds and every living creature. God created the world out of nothing. God created the world for His pleasure. (Revelation 4:11, Colossians 1:16) God’s commandment back in the Garden of Eden was twofold: be fruitful and multiply, and listen to what I say. In this case, he says, do not eat of the fruit of one of the tree’s in the Garden.
And, while Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, they were in Paradise. They were in God’s presence. God filled Paradise with Himself and drew Adam and Eve to Him. There is no need for a pre-existence because God’s intention always was to have His children in His presence. He wanted them with Him, to glorify and praise Him, to have a relationship with Him. This would have happened had Adam and Eve never fallen.
(continued)
Now, Mormonism teaches that the Fall is a good thing. Mormon.org says this:
As God’s first children on earth, Adam and Eve were living in their garden paradise. They didn’t feel any sorrow or pain, which might seem nice, except that without it, they also couldn’t feel joy. They didn’t remember their pre-earth life. If they hadn’t eaten the forbidden fruit, they would have lived like that forever and never had children. Mankind never would have been born or the world populated.
As we know, Adam and Eve succumbed to Satan’s temptations to eat the fruit and disobeyed God who had commanded them not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. As a consequence, they were separated from God’s presence physically and spiritually—an event we refer to as the Fall. They became mortal—just as we are—subject to sin, disease, all types of suffering, and ultimately death. But it wasn’t all bad because they could now feel great joy.“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.” (2 Nephi 2:25)
Two things. One, even before they ate the fruit, God commanded Adam and Eve to “be fruitful and increase in number” – Mormonism teaches that without the fall, there would have been no children. How does this reconcile to God saying, increase in number before the fall? Two, the Fall was a bad thing. Period. The Fall forced mankind out of God’s presence. This wasn’t what God wanted! Unlike Mormonism’s God purposefully sending his children out of his presence, the Christian God does so because of mankind’s disobedience. The Fall was a bad thing. The Fall was the first sin, the first act of disobedience against a loving God who created mankind for His infinite pleasure.
(continued)
But the great news is that wasn’t the end. God didn’t just say, oh well, they failed me, I give up. No, He loves us, His creation. We were made in His image. We have the power to become children of God and the amazing opportunity to experience complete joy and happiness with Him in eternity in heaven. What’s the purpose of heaven? It’s a place where God’s people go to be in His presence, to glorify and praise and love Him more fully than we ever thought possible. We live on this earth because God put us here, and He wants nothing more than for us to be with Him. Jesus’s greatest commandment (our purpose here in life, given by our Savior): Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind (Matthew 22:37).
Why did I go through all of this? Because “Mary” asked, what is the purpose of life? The answer is plain in the Bible. The purpose of life is to populate the world and to glorify God and to follow Jesus’s commandment in Matthew: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.
“Mary”’s problem, and Joseph Smith’s problem, and those who turn to Mormonism – their problem is that they don’t fathom why the reason we’re here is to love and praise and glorify God. That’s not a good enough answer. They, selfishly, want more. They want to progress beyond God’s creation. They want to become a god instead of giving all their love and praise to the only true God (Isaiah 43:10).
(that is all. thanks.)
Fourth, if you look at other churches that came out of the “burned out district” of NY (where this scene takes place) those influenced by William Miller seem to have an unusual treatment of Luke 12:32-4, Ellen White’s treatment being a great example. If we assume that given that multiple churches that came from Miller all having an unusual treatment goes back to Miller its entirely possible that Mary in the play is already theologically semi-Millerite and doesn’t share your read. We know Joseph Smith’s uncle, Jason Mack was a member of the Seekers which came out of the Millerite churches; and there is Seeker influence on Mormonism. The problem is we have great records for what the Millerite churches believed in the 1840s I don’t know what they believed about this verse in the 1820s. Its unclear what Joseph Smith would have meant then. Figuring that out, is serious scholarship and I ain’t doing that to answer a blog question.
OK so given all those provisions, Doctrines and Covenants 132 (which is written after the scene it taking place) does answer your question. Earthly marriages are created under earthly law, have no impact of the spirits and are dissolved at death. Celestial marriages are marriages of the respective spirits and thus remain in force. Jesus wasn’t wrong, just the doctrine of celestial marriage wasn’t what was being discussed. He was being asked about earthly marriage in that verse. And had Mary and Robert not entered into Celestial marriage their family bonds would have been dissolved at death. In fact that’s one of the final scenes in the play their being reunited in the Celestial Kingdom because of their sealing.
The overwhelming majority of Greek manuscripts have Luke 12:34 the way you have it.
Sorry, typo, that should read “The overwhelming majority of Greek manuscripts have Luke 20:34 the way you have it”.
Falcon, Brian, SR and others,
Since it seems clear no matter what we tell CD or show him for evidence, he will not remove his fingers from his ears and stop saying, LA,LA, LA, until we tell him whats to hear.
So CD, I believe in the ungodly Catholic Church Teachings, even Priests molesting little boys, Their is no God, yet Mormonism is true and their are millions of Gods and they will be Gods.
Now you can cry tears of Joy and I will give you some pink unicorn tissue to wipe away your snot bubbles. You can blog to your athiest blogging friends that a Christian told you what you wanted to hear and you cried over it and blew snot bubbles. Happy Now? Now why not move on and bother someone else?
CD Host, if you are not a mormon why would you come on a blog that is solely dedicated to get the truth or should I say the lies mormons teach or withold ) out to people who are mormon. The question of course is rhetorical, as I am sure you will find some twisted way to explain yourself. I just find it sad, considering not only yours but others eternal conditon rests on these things.
Rich B., I could not agree with you more. Blessings to you and the others who faithfully come on here to share your knowledge of Jesus Chirst and leave yourselves open to ridicule. May the Lord Bless you and keep you may he make His face to shine upon you.
Sorry I meant the last paragrahp to go to Rick B. God bless you and others who are faithful to speak the truth in the face of ridicule.
Sandi, I asked CD the same question.
Summed up they said, I am an atheist, I study all religions, I am a former Christian and if I had to choose a religion it would be Mormonism. But I am to lazy to really bother trying to follow Mormonism. I feel Christians are lying about Mormons so I am here to defend them and stand up for them.
I told CD I really question their motives because I have been witnessing to atheists on-line and in person for many years. IMO Their are two types of atheists.
1st they come from a religious background, they are former…. Fill in said religion.
the 2nd type are simply atheists that have been all their lives, they take the Live and let live approach, They dont waste what little time they have trying to tell people that they dont believe God does not exist, then try proving a God they dont believe in does not exist.
I told CD he is the first ever “Atheist” that defends any religion with more passion than the people of that religion do. Makes one wonder what his real motives are. Then I love how atheists try and act like they are so intellectually superior to everyone and say, I have a phd and a masters and all these degree’s and I also happen to speak, Greek, Hebrew and Latin very fluently.
Then some one like me is honest enough to say, I dont speak those languages and then the atheist acts like, see I do and can tell you I am right and the Bible is wrong. Yet I know people that speak them, and yes some are Jewish, So I would think they know it better than some one who is not, and the friends tell me
The Atheist is wrong. Plus the Bible has been proven to stand the test of time and attack, yet Atheist dont care, they still fight to their death to say it is wrong.
What I asked an atheist once and they could never answer me or simply did not want to is,
If I tell you that before I came to know Jesus as Savior, I did drugs, went after any women I could sleep with and even used the I can buy drugs or booze in order to get what I want line. And I had tried to kill at least two people and it would have been more, plus I had the police over my house almost daily, I can list much worse. But Know I have a changed life due to Jesus. So let me get this straight, you want to try and convince me Jesus is not real and then if I have nothing to live for I might as well go back to my old life style? If thats the case,
Give me you home address, lets meet in person, I will renounce Christ to your face, then since I have nothing to live for and I have no God to be accountable to, then I will start at your place and go back to how I was living. Are you game for that, You might possibly be my first victim and then I will party at your place will you are dead on the floor.
Give me a break, You would never do that, You atheists cannot have it both ways, Have me live a moral lifestyle and live according to mans laws if God does not exist. If God is not real and I am not accountable, then watch out world here comes trouble.
Ah……………can I make a suggestion?
I have learned in my time here on MC (I’ve been on here longer than anyone except Rick) that it’s not productive to spend a lot of time fencing with certain types of people.
I used to spend hours doing research, formulating well structured presentations and expressing myself with enthusiasm. You know what? It would be dismissed by the unbelievers (Mormon or other wise) and in the end it proved to be a gigantic waste of time.
It was then that I became a Calvinist.
I worked in a facility early in my career, for folks with developmental disabilities. It use to drive me nuts when the aide staff would argue with the residents. These residents where cognitively disabled. Arguing with them was not only foolish but a waste of time.
DON’T ARGUE WITH SPIRITUALLY UN-REGENERATED PEOPLE!
Hi SR —
First off, thank you for being polite. Its nice to see someone on a Mormon board actually addressing Mormonism and contrasting it in a knowledgeable way. So really good answer and I agree with just about everything you wrote.
You are absolutely correct that eternal progression, mortal probation(s) and exaltation are the goals. I would disagree with you there isn’t biblical support for that idea. 1Cor 15:35-51 is a pretty clear statement of exactly this idea that mortality is a seed. 1Cor 15:22. John 1:12-13 born not of blood is unclear in the ESV (which is what’s going to pop up)
Literal: he ones not of bloods nor of [the] will of flesh nor of [the] will of a husband but of God were born. (if you know Greek obviously use that)
“not of the bloods” is an expression “not from fetoplacental circulation” is the same meaning in English. Obviously that changes tone to much which matters in a poem, so something like
Ann Nyland: “children not born from a woman nor from the purposes of the natural realm nor from the purposes of a man, but born from God”
of my favorite version Suzanne McCarthy’s:
children not born from the womb of a mother
nor from the will of the natural body
nor from the will of a father,
but born from God.
But if you want an evangelical translation the NET children not born by human parents or by human desire or a husband’s decision, but by God.
Not born of Adam, not made of flesh, never born of a woman… I’m not sure you can’t make for exaltation biblically. (continued)