How often have we heard the claim that the growth of Mormonism proves it is a true religion? Honestly, too many times to count. It is insinuated that the LDS Church’s size and success in getting people to join its church are factors that are somehow supposed to lend credibility to the religion’s truthfulness. We are then asked, How could such a successful organization be wrong?
There are several problems to this rationale:
- The church’s rate of growth has been going down over the past two decades (see growth table below). In fact, in 1990, the church grew by more than 330,000 members, which is an incredible 4.45% rate of annual growth. At that time one social scientist even predicted that Mormonism could reach almost a quarter billion members by the 2040s. However, the LDS Church has not had this rate of success since that time. The rate hovered in the three percent growth rate range during the 1990s before going to under three percent in 2000 (and never again going over this three percent mark). In three of the six years since 2005, the rate of growth has been less than 2%. Last year, a total of almost 273,000 converts were added at a 1.93% growth rate. Despite the fact that the church is listed at 14.1 million members (compared with 7.6 million in 1990), its rate of growth has greatly suffered.
- Some might wonder how many missionaries there were in 1990. In fact, there were 43,651. Yet the number has been as high as 61,000 (2002) and, in 2010, was at 52,000. If we were to assume all converts came to the church through missionaries, then in 1990 there were 7.58 converts per missionary yet only 5.22 converts per missionary in 2010.
- Consider a comparable United States religion such as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (Jehovah’s Witnesses)—which is about half the size of the LDS Church. In 2010, the JWs grew by 294,000 converts (as compared to Mormonism’s 272,000 converts during the same time frame). This is a 4% increase from the previous year’s numbers, more than doubling the total percentage of growth as listed by the Mormon Church. It is doubtful that a Mormon would consider the Watchtower Society true just because the JW numbers are growing at this rate!
- As far as total numbers, the Mormon Church could never compete with Roman Catholicism, Islam, or Hinduism. Percentage-wise, the LDS Church is not even the fastest growing religion in the United States. In 2009, it grew by 1.71 percent to almost 5.9 million U.S. members; however, the Jehovah’s Witnesses grew 2 percent (to 1.1 million) while the Church of God (Cleveland, Tenn.) grew 1.76 percent (to 1.05 million).
The next time a Mormon uses the “growth card,” suggest this is not a very good indicator for determining truth.
The above information was compiled from the May Ensign magazines, an official LDS Church publication that includes an annual church audit. The convert rate does not include members’ children who came of age and were baptized into the church.
Personally I never felt growth was that important, hence the early Christians were slow to grow.
Given the free nature of Religion in our Country and now more freedom across the world to practice religions as one feels it best serves them and their families, we still find a great divide between those who profess any kind of religion versus those who have decided there is no God. Missionary work is important, JW’s are one of the few Churches that are on course to follow the footsteps outlined by Christ to feed His sheep. Where are those other Christian faithfuls, where is the great effort to convert the millions and billions who have no Faith in God. Missing is action I propose. 🙂
Eric,
Does the growth rate subtract the people who have formally left the LDS church? It would also be interesting to see the statistics on “active” members. We’d have to define exactly what “active” means. You make an excellent point regarding “growth” not reflecting “truth”.
Let’s face it, the retention rate for Mormonism as far as active members goes is pretty dismal. Mormonism is a grind. Most converts aren’t going to get into it especially at the temple and callings level unless they’ve grown up in the culture and live in the swath of territory out west where Mormonism is the dominant religion.
Mormonism has little to do with a personal relationship with Jesus and more to do with serving the LDS machine. When someone encounters Jesus on a personal level and have been born again by the Spirit of God, they don’t want to go back to religion as a substitute. Organized religion works only as it enhances a personal walk with the Lord. Plenty of Christian churches do this, having their priorities straight.
Eric,
I’d also be interested in how many converts there are in North America. I would guess that it would be pretty tough sledding for Mormon missionaries in the US and Canada where people have ready access to the internet. A few mouse clicks and a prospect could learn all he/she needed to know about Mormonism in order to make an informed decision.
Mormonism has to be sold on the basis of an emotional experience and unfortunately for the Mormon church, it’s pretty tough to maintain the love bombing that goes on when attracting potential new members. I also think there’s a push with Mormons to sell the church organization with all of its programs. Mormonism isn’t going to lead with a presentation on the Mormon doctrine of the nature of God and man.
In Christianity, a person commits themselves to Jesus Christ…..period.
In Mormonism, a person is committing to an organization with a lot of requirements for membership.
Eric, great article. While I think its human nature for adherents of a
particular religion to think that they have the truth because of the
growth it is experiencing , still this reasoning is not to objective
especially when other groups with greatly opposing doctrines are
growing faster etc. We know that the Mormon church is more
concerned with it’s image than most other religions so it would
like to use it’s growth as proof of it’s message .
Falcon, I agree that in this country the growth rate of Mormonism is’nt
to great because of information being easily accessible that tells ” the rest
of the story ” , so to speak. I imagine that in some of the foreign countries
they are vastly more successful. Thank the Lord for ministries like MRM ,as
people deserve to hear both sides of the story that is being presented to them
by Mormon Missionaries .
Here’s another problem that the LDS church has to deal with. These folks in the poorer countries need a lot of financial support. They aren’t going to contribute much to the LDS church revenue stream. Money is the mother’s milk of any organization like the Mormon church. The game is to keep more coming in than is going out. So there’s the double edge sword for the Mormon church. They will have more success in third world nations in roping folks into the organization, but what’s 10% of zero when it comes to the tithe.
I’m trying to remember where I was reading that there were countries where the LDS church had to shut down wards and combine wards etc. because the numbers just weren’t there to support what they had.
None-the-less my guess is that retention is pretty tough in the third world countries for the LDS church.
Wow, Helen/Louis I am completely insulted. As opposed to Mormon missionaries, whose aim is to convert and talk about “the Church” and Joseph Smith and convince people to become Mormon, I know dozens of Christian missionaries in third world countries who are working to make life better for those who aren’t able to. Now before you argue, I know that Mormon missionaries do some charity work, but it’s, frankly, not the same. The missionaries I support spread Christ’s Gospel through their Godly love, humble servitude, and actions, not with their conversion words. Medical missions and ministries like World Vision and Compassion international that work with children — this is Christian missions at their finest. Not knocking on doors and asking, Are you a Mormon?
SR,
Good points. Christian missionaries have the goal of bringing people to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Mormon missionaries have as their goal the making of Mormons. Have you ever noticed the the “canned” Mormon testimony has five points, the fifth being Jesus. It’s all about the LDS church in Mormonism. What picture does a Mormon get in their mind when they think of Jesus? I know what a Christian thinks when they think about who Jesus is. He’s God incarnate. Mormons see a valiant older spirit brother, the off spring of the Mormon god and one of his many wives. Jesus has a place in the Mormon program. That’s the point. It’s all about the Mormon program and chasing the dream of being a god.
Of course none of this is mentioned to the Mormon prospect.
Helen said
Sounds to me like you are infering that JW’s are Christians and doing Gods work. Yet RLDS and FLDS preach the LDS gospel and send out MM’s. Yet your Church does not teach any off these guys are Christains. They teach they are false. So why did you infer JW’s are doing Gods work when your church teachs otherwise? Or did I miss something?
Rick,
Thanks for highlighting this comment.
“Missionary work is important, JW’s are one of the few Churches that are on course to follow the footsteps outlined by Christ to feed His sheep.”
It reflects a total lack of understanding of what the JWs are up to and ignores the fabulous work done by Christian missionaries through-out the world.
Also, what are the JWs and LDS missionaries “feeding” the sheep. It certainly isn’t “living water” or the “bread” that came down from heaven. The JW and LDS “water” is poisoned and the “bread” is rancid.
Neither the JWs or LDS know who Jesus is. If you don’t have the real Jesus you have a false Jesus. A false Jesus leads to a false gospel. A false gospel doesn’t lead to eternal life but eternal destruction. JWs think that Jesus is the archangel Michael and the Mormons think he’s basically the favorite spirit child offspring of one of the Mormon gods and one of his many wives.
This is the kind of “food” that both these false religions, masquerading as Christianity, try to force feed the sheep.
Incidentally, aren’t “sheep” believers?
Falcon, Rick, I have to agree with your assessment of Helen’s dogmatic statement
concerning JW’s. I’m still shaking my head !
Mike,
That statement regarding the JWs reflect zero understanding of that sect, its beliefs, goals and practices. Andy Watson spent several months, every Saturday afternoon with representatives of the JWs. He’d give me weekly updates as we talked by phone and corresponded by e mail. Let me say it was quite an eye opening experience for Andy and vicariously for me. He attended church services and I believe a regional conference at their invitation.
One of the conclusions that Andy came to was that it was almost impossible to reason with them from the Scriptures. Coincidentally, this is the same conclusion that at least one early Church Father came to when debating heretics. The JWs could start a pretzel factory given their ability to twist things.
The other thing that Andy discovered was that what needed to be done was to destroy the JWs faith in the Watch Tower organization. The way this is done is by having a thorough knowledge of the history of the sect. This is especially true when examining the number of times the JWs have predicted the end of the world. Funny thing though, their excuse is that they have “more light” now.
Andy had an experience at a “communion” service on what we’d call Holy Thursday. The leader announces that only those worthy can take communion, then he takes communion. The elements were then passed along the pews and none of the JWs would dare take communion. Well one of the elements comes past Andy (the bread I think) and he takes it. When the wine was passed he got into a virtual tug of war with the usher who didn’t want him to take (the wine).
Well things got really tense as the JW leadership birthed a small cow!
Falcon, I mentioned to my wife ( an ex-JW) what Helen had stated, you should have
seen the look on her face. When I started out in defending my faith it was with Jw”s.
I moved over into researching on Mormonism later on. Andy reminded me of Paul
in Acts 17:1-3. We plant a lot of seeds here whether we prove our point or not, and
it’s important to remember that. Your heart goes out to those in false prophet led
organizations.
Mike,
It’s a spirit that’s why reason won’t often work. The claims of the cults makes sense to these folks because their understanding has been short circuited, darkened. Spiritual battles are won in the heavenlies as Paul explains in Ephesians 6:12. We also need to put on the full armor of God as Paul states in Ephesians 6:13-17. Notice these are all “defensive” weapons except for the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God. In addition to this we need to pray. Not just any prayer but as Paul explains in Ephesians 6:18. Pray at all times in the Spirit. Notice that’s a capital “s”. So Paul is identifying the Spirit of God as the source of our prayer life.
Abraham Lincoln said that if he had eight hours to cut down a tree, he’d spend seven hours sharpening his ax. Our sharpening is our study of the Word and prayer.
Falcon,
Excellent post ! You’re right on target.
What is the Mormon investigator taught?
1). Taught about the preexistence
2). Christ is the Son of God, not God incarnate.
3). We are all Spirit Children of God, intelligences in the beginning and clothed or created into spirits.
4). Earth life is for us to be tested and by our faith (believing Christ is Lord and Savior) and doing good unto others (charity) and keeping God commandments we can return into Him and have Eternal Life.
5). There are many mansions, the highest degree being the Celestial Kingdom.
6). Christ was the God of the Old Testament, a spirt just like us in the beginning and came down to earth as the Literal Son of God.
7). Faith is gained by belief and James 1:5 shows us that REVELATION is a promise to all who sincerely and humbly seek and ask God.
8). In the preexistence we were given the plan of Salvation, Lucifer our older brother rebelled and wanted Gods Glory and promised that all His spirits would come to the earth and be saved. The plan is much like free grace, effortless and without works. d
9). Works: God expected us to keep the commandments, be faithful, repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, accept all other ordinances and covenants in the Temple for our earthly progression and Eternal Life.
These are the saving principles of Mormonism, other doctrine include becoming Kings and Queens, Gods and Goddesses, spiritual children, Heavenly Mother, Lucifer as our rebellious brother, Christ as our Oldest Brother and First Created of Heavenly Father and Mother.
All these doctrines are taught either in our Meetinghouses or in the Temple of God. Sacred ordinances and principles are kept in the Temple.
I found an interesting quote on a website from a Traditional Christian university professor. He was answering some ‘hard questions for Christians’ on this site. one of the answers he gave said this –
Here is the website – http://www.leaderu.com/offices/schaefer/docs/questions.html
Very interesting in regards to the current topic.
I love that there are at least 9 “saving principles” in the LDS system. Whereas, according to Christ Himself, there’s only 1… surrendering your life to Him.
I personally think the LDS leaders are entering into a slight panic mode. We keep getting people showing up at our house to “check up on us”. And saying things like “we miss you” and knowing my name even though we’ve never met before. Super creepy.
Funny yall mentioned all of the tactics that Mormons like to try and get converts with. My father-in-law tried to hook me (the very first time) with a pamphlet on all the good the Mormon church does. He showed me pictures of kids being fed in Africa. While I didn’t say this to his face, I wanted to say, “Are you kidding me?? THIS is the best you’ve got to show me? This is what you think is going to convince me?? Dude, give me some credit…” It baffles me that so many mormons (who tend to live in their own little bubbles anyway) are totally ignorant to the outreach done by Christians, not only to help send aid to other countries, but to ultimately share Jesus with people who have virtually no hope. How could anyone not know of Compassion Intl or Samaritan’s Purse or Voice of the Martyrs?? These are massive Christian based relief organizations. Not to mention the thousands of missionaries going out every year to different areas around the world to spread the gospel. My cousin and his wife (who is expecting) are planning on going to a majority Muslim area next year, where speaking the name of Jesus is life-threatening. You’re going to tell me that Christians are “missing in action”?? I don’t think so.
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” Matthew 7:13-14
Helen,
That’s a perfect explanation of why Mormonism isn’t part of the Christian family of Christ following denominations. I’m not going to pick a part your list because looking at in aggregate tells us all we have to know about the false religion of Mormonism. What’s interesting about your list is that there isn’t any Biblical support for the points.
There is an orthodox Christian faith that believes the following:
1. The Bible is the Word of God.
2. The Trinity; One God, three persons.
3. The Deity of Christ. He is God.
4. The Virgin birth of Christ.
5. Christ died for us. The blood atonement.
6. Jesus’ resurrection.
7. Saved by grace apart from works.
8. Jesus’ second coming.
9. The judgement of God.
Mormonism is built on revelation and supported by claimed appearances by different forms of Heavenly beings.
Christianity is built on the Word of God; the ultimate and final revelation that God has for those who would receive the gift of eternal life extended by grace, received by faith.
You’ve given a perfect list of aberrant and heretical doctrine supported by nothing but the false revelations of false prophets.
Mormonism exists no where in the Scriptures nor in the history and tradition of the Christian faith.
A number of false prophets have appeared, as Jesus warned, and the apostles taught about. Of these, Mormonism is one of the worst because it denies God and rejects His plan of salvation.
In the place of God, Mormonism has substituted many gods. In place of Jesus, God incarnate, Mormonism has substituted a valiant hero, who is the spirit off-spring of a fictitious god and one of his many goddess wives. In place of salvation by grace through faith, Mormonism has substituted a system of works and behavioral expectations through which a Mormon believes he will also become a god.
A very sad picture!
Helen,
Notice what’s missing from your list.
There’s nothing there regarding the Mormon doctrine of the nature of God. In-other-words the prospect is not told that Mormons believe that there are many gods, that these gods were at one time sinful men who through a system of ritualistic religion and adherence to certain behavioral expectations, became gods themselves. The prospect isn’t told that the god Mormons worship has many wives who live with him on or near the planet Kolob. They aren’t told that this god has some limitations but he is working hard, even now, to perfect himself with more knowledge and wisdom.
Hiding who the Mormons believe their god is, is not some small over-sight. Mormons know that if they describe their god to the average person, the Mormon “restored” gospel will be rejected.
There wasn’t anything in your list that suggests that the prospect is told that he may become a god by joining Mormonism and be one of many gods already in existence.
That would be a major deal killer and the missionaries would find a “NO SOLICITORS” sign on the door of the prospect when they returned for a follow-up visit.
Falcon, LOL at the sensationalist speculating on what you think we teach. Since none of the above as described by you is in our standard works then we are left to speculate about whether God once was a man and sinned. How many God there are. How many wives. God has limitations. Still working hard to perfect Himself, etc, etc, and baloney on top of baloney.
So what do you have Falcon is a lot of sensational nonsense, arguments that only seem to bolster your own driven agenda of obvious intentional misinformation. You study the negative, you mock and ridicule what you fail to comprehend and best of all, state that you received from God some kind of message that the Book of Mormon is false, yet failed to ever read it. Yep, you’re qualified.
Helen, say what you want about Falcon, But I have read the 4 standered works, cover to cover.
You cannot answer the vast majorty of questions asked of you. so you avoid them by saying things like, I’m not hear to answer questions.
The biggest question yet, asked by me to any mormon is, where is Christ’s love from you guys? That has never been answered and never will be because their is none, you guys dont care about lost souls, you dont care to share Scripture. You only care to make converts and push your agenda.
You better think twice before you speak. I will go toe to toe with any Mormon any where, any time. I know enough about your church to scare you guys. You will laugh and mock, but you know I am serious by the questions that go avoided. And the lame excuses you guys make to not answer them.
Plus let me remind you, I have show you more than once where you were less than honest in some of your replies. If you must resort to those tatcis then that speaks volumes.
Helen,
You naive little sweetheart you! I love folks like you. If I were there I’d give you a reassuring pat on the head and maybe even a big hug.
Let see you say “we are left to speculate” and then you call it all baloney. Now that’s curious. Obviously the “we” means Mormons as well as anyone else so I’d have to conclude that Mormons are manufacturing a lot of baloney also.
Is your husband planning on becoming a god Helen? Is he a sinner?
The Bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Now it doesn’t take a whole lot of speculation that if men are to become gods and if the Mormon god was a man that he was a sinner. Or did he get to skip that part of the program but expects you to go through it. Doesn’t seem fair some how.
Joseph Smith said, “You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves….the same as all Gods have done before you….until you are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and sit in glory. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.4)
“Gods” Helen, would you like to speculate how many?
Orson Pratt said that there were more gods than there are particles of matter in a million planets like the earth. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 345) Is this the sort of Mormon baloney you’re talking about, Helen?
You say I mock and ridicule what I fail to understand. Do you understand it Helen? It would be helpful if you would process information in a normal fashion and start to put two and two together.
Now as far as my knowing that the BoM is false despite never having read it, it’s because of revelation Helen, right? To be consistent in your belief in revelation, you have to accept what I say if I say it’s been revealed to me.
Actually it’s really not that hard to pick out a false “revelation” like the BoM. First of all, like we’ve explained to you in the past, the BoM reveals one God and then Joseph Smith later revealed another god. In fact he revealed all kinds of gods. So one of the revelations has to be false.
Also Helen, all I need to know is by what spirit you claim to have an inner witness about the BoM. In Mormonism there’s a Holy Ghost AND a Holy Spirit. The Mormon Holy Ghost even got to become a god without having a body and going through the normal Mormon process of becoming a god. Now that’s curious. The Mormon Holy Spirit has been likened to a force something like electricity.
Helen I think it’s time for you to grow-up spiritually and show some maturity.
Falcon, here we go again . Helen is attempting to get the conversation onto the
Book of Mormon. It gets old.
I’m reminded of the following from Sharon’s ministry site: ” Hearken to the Prophet’s
Voice” : On the relationship between the written scriptures of the past and the words of
living prophets, President Harold B. Lee said, ‘ Sometimes we get the notion that if it is
written in a book, it makes it more true than if spoken in the last Gen. Conference. Just
because it is written in a book does not make it more of an authority to guide us. ‘ Said
another way by apostle Orson F. Whitney in Gen. Conference, ‘ Whatever is done by this
Church is because God, speaking from Heaven in our day, has commanded this Church to
do t. No book presides this Church, and no book lies at it’s foundation. ‘ ” [ quoting a
Church manual ” Teachings of the Living Prophets” student manual ].
Given the very claims of Mormon leaders to be the “living” mouthpiece of God today,
it is what THEY reveal as necessary requirements to gain eternal life that we should
evaluate for truth. After all, false prophets would love to “introduce” new truths,
to mislead — 2Pt.2:1
Dear Helen,
While reading through your list of what investigators are taught, one item caught my eye. It was:
6). Christ was the God of the Old Testament, a spirt just like us in the beginning and came down to earth as the Literal Son of God.
Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament? Why did this draw my interest? It did because I heard this once before from an LDS friend. As the wheels and gears clicked in my mind afterwards, I came up with some questions. I’d love to present them to you here:
Starting Point: Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament.
1. Is Jesus Christ also the God of the New Testament, Helen?
2. If so, this would mean Jesus Christ is the God of the Bible?
3. If so, then Jesus is … God?
4. Jesus is the Bible’s God. But is he your God, Helen?
Helen you said : “Falcon, LOL at the sensationalist speculating on what you think we teach.”
Honestly, I think you should tell us all what is taught. You could clear this up just by telling us what you have been taught about these things and what is LDS doctrine concerning these things. How about what you believe about these things? You should be defending this stuff not throwing out insults at someone who has obviously studied it. You aren’t really helping your case. What is the nature of God for you Helen? Do the LDS missionaries teach the nature of God? Joseph Smith said:
“I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. … It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know…that he was once a man like us…. (“King Follett Discourse,” Journal of Discourses 6:3-4, also in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345-346, and History of the Church, vol. 6, 305-307,)
He said the “FIRST PRINCIPLE OF THE GOSPEL IS TO KNOW FOR A CERTAINTY THE CHARACTER OF GOD” “THAT HE WAS ONCE A MAN LIKE US”
That does not leave room for speculation Helen. So what if it isn’t in your standard works. It was “revealed” by your founding prophet. Why do you dispute that and claim sensationalism? At one time the Journal of Discourses was considered “As good a scripture as is couched in this Bible” ( Brigham Young, JoD Vol.13,p 264)
If we are to dismiss what your past prophets revealed, are we also to dismiss what your present prophet reveals?
Here’s one of the reasons why Mormonism has two-thirds of its members as “inactive”. Many are as naive as our LDS friend Helen. Then they pick-up some information here or there that they deny being true. Then they find out that it is true. Now what do they do? Well they can’t deny it at that point so then we get into the dance known as the Mormon two step. What’s that? It’s a little jig that Mormons dance that while acknowledging that yes one of the prophets did teach something, it doesn’t count. We’re then told that it has to be spoken at General Conference to be true. Then we show that it was taught at GC, or was spoken of from the Mormon pulpit, or appears in a publication of the LDS church.
Well then it doesn’t matter because the Mormon has a testimony.
Is it any wonder why people with any integrity at all, leave the LDS church?
One of my favorites:
In an 1892 LDS publication under the heading “THE INHABITANTS OF THE MOON,” this interesting information is given by Oliver B. Huntington:
“Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a Prophet.
“As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do — that they live generally to near the age — that they live generally to near the age of 1000 years. “He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style. (The Young Woman’s Journal, p. 263.)
This doesn’t count, right?
Here’s what I think about the “doesn’t count.” If these were true prophets of God then it would all line up. None of this back and forth teaching. God does not change his mind as to his character or who he is. Mormonism has taught the Trinity, God was once a man and Adam/God only to go back to God was once a man, oh wait! That is speculation and/or sensationalism. Just who is the Mormon God? It would seem that the LDS don’t even know the answer to that question. At least the FLDS guy that Aaron interviewed stood up and boldly proclaimed that Adam is God! Why are the LDS ashamed to tell us who God is? What is his nature? His character? Why all the secrecy? The God of the Bible is not found anywhere in Mormonism. This is why LDS missionaries don’t disclose who the Mormon God is. Mormonism is not Christianity and never has been. It’s not just deceiving, it’s an out right lie to claim to be Christianity restored. The very basis of Christianity is who God is and what he has done for us, his creation. Who God is should be the starting point for all of us.
Falcon
You poor misguided soul-Oh I just had to say that.
THE INHABITANTS OF THE MOON
That is one of my favorites too because before I joined the church I read about where that originated from. How papers would print stories to increase their circulation. Someone came up with a story about William Herschel’s son spying the inhabitants on the moon. Other papers picked it up and not all heard about the retraction. It is kind of embarassing that the church puts this in one of their manuals.
Helen
I do not think that any body here on this blog consider what happened when we lived in our pre mortal life. They simple don’t believe it. They are also more concern to tell us that we are wrong than converting a person who does not believe there is a God. What would they do if they pondered Ecclesiates 12:7.
Clyde,
There’s a reason that no body here considers what happened in a pre-mortal life. It’s because there is/was no pre-mortal life. That’s one more of those bizarre Mormon inventions that has no basis either in Scripture or the history and tradition of the orthodox Christian faith. It’s all apart of the mother-father god procreators mythology of Mormonism.
This is another one of those deep dark spiritual secrets full of knowledge and wisdom that was revealed to Joseph Smith or one of his crew of false prophets. It’s this sort of nonsense that makes Mormonism more related to Greek or Roman mythology then the religion of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and Christianity which flows from it.
Here’s another good one for you Clyde.
President Brigham Young not only taught the moon was inhabited, but the SUN as well. In a sermon delivered in the Tabernacle in Salt Lake City, President Young made these unbelievable statements:
“Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?…when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 271)
Yea these are guys you really want to believe when they start talking about things such as Adam-God, God having actual physical sex with Mary, the pre-mortal existence, men becoming gods, angels with drawn swords threatening to kill (Smith) if he didn’t practice polygamy, and magic rocks in the hat.
You can depend on them.
Kate who is arguing about God being once a man, what you neglect is the rest of the sensationalism that goes with it. God if once a man must have sinned. Lets be honest, the sensationalism is the part about God sinning, so where is that found in our Doctrine, please help me out here?
Brian,
If you go to the lds.org website and then go to the manuals section you will find the Institute manuals. In the OT Genesis – 2 Samuel you will find a heading “Enrichment Section A” where it describes our belief that Jesus is the God of the OT and how that fits in with Heavenly Father being the God over all and Jesus is a separate being and a God. It might help answer the questions you wrote. There is too much information on those pages to sumarise properly but 1 point it makes is – Jesus was given the total authority from Heavenly Father to act in His position, just like a king gives his envoy. So He was able to act in place of Heavenly Father and make statements for Him.
There is more in there if you want to understand why we teach it, whether you agree or not with the teaching.
I would love for Falcon to explain eternity that has a beginning. Yet he and all the orthodox Christian proclaim that they will inherit a place in Heaven for Eternity. Interesting concept that seems like a oxymoron to me. Just a thought though.
Helen,
You may like Aaron’s little video on the topic of did the Mormon god sin.
http://www.mrm.org/god-never-sinned
I think you are missing the point. That the Mormon gods were once sinners is a logical conclusion based on the Mormon doctrine of men becoming gods. That is unless you want to tell us that Mormon men don’t sin.
If the Mormon gods were not once sinful men but rather sinless men, then you folks currently in the program are being asked by the gods to start at a point and overcome something they were never required to (over come).
You see Helen, you never ask the next question.
It’s the same with the pantheon of Mormon gods. The Mormon god you relate to as your up-line had a father-god, as did his, as did his and so forth and so on. So doesn’t that cause you to ask a few questions? No I guess not!
When Mormons start asking logical questions, they leave Mormonism because it all falls a part.
There is One God. He is eternal. He tells us in His Word that He knows of no other gods. He’s it!
Ralph,
Jesus is not “a” god.
Jesus is God. He is eternal. He is not the spirit offspring of the Mormon god and one of his wives. The Jesus you speak of can’t provide you with eternal life.
I think you better look to the Bible for the revelation about who God is and not some manual put out by the LDS church.
Helen if I’m understanding you right, you said: “Since none of the above as described by you is in our standard works then we are left to speculate about whether God once was a man and sinned.”
So this is saying that God once being a man isn’t in your standard works and you are left to “speculate” about God once being a man. So let me get this straight, God was once a man like we are now. Tell me, are you a sinner Helen? Is Louis? I am. I’m sure every Christian on this blog would say “yes I am a sinner.” So if God was a man like us then of course he was a sinner! How did he progress into Godhood if he never went through the trials that we are going through now. Isn’t that how Mormon men are going to become Gods? By progression and overcoming their sin? Awhile back I watched Aaron’s video that falcon posted, maybe you should take a look. It would seem that most Mormons would say of course God sinned. How is that sensationalism? The more you post the more I see the deception you are under.
It’s pretty obvious that the Mormons who appear in Aaron’s video are split regarding whether or not the Mormon heavenly father was once a sinner. One goes as far as to say that the LDS church doesn’t have a doctrine regarding this. Isn’t that a strange thing? No doctrine regarding who the Mormon god really is.
Christians know who God is and what His attributes are as far as He has revealed them to us. One of God’s attributes is that He is totally Holy. As Christians we have a firm grasp of who He is. Here are the Mormons in the video some on one side, others on another side and then some who are just kind of confused and throw their hands up because it’s too deep for them.
So Mormons have a pantheon of gods. Mormon men can become one of these many gods. Mormon men are sinners so it would stand to reason that as far as the Mormon men to gods program, these future Mormon gods will have once been sinners.
I can see where our Mormon friends don’t want to think about or discuss this because it has the potential of blowing holes in their faith in Mormonism. If Mormonism can’t provide an answer for such a fundamental question as this, what type of revelation do they have concerning the nature of God.
Satan is the father of confusion. It’s on display when Mormon discuss the nature of the Mormon god.
I don’t think Mormons know what to believe. You see, nothing is clear at church. I have learned through this blog that I had all kinds of freedom to believe whatever I wanted to as a Mormon. I wasn’t aware of that. I can also see not wanting to ask any questions because it does make you stop and think about things. TBM don’t want to know, so they fight tooth and nail for the one piece of the information they think is correct, but don’t ask the hard questions. If God was once a man like us then it is clear he was a sinner who earned godhood. Otherwise he wasn’t a man like we are now, as Joseph Smith revealed. Once again I am going to ask Helen, do the LDS missionaries teach that God was once a man as we are now to potential converts? Please Helen, for once, answer the question. Because if they are not teaching this, they are lying by omission to gain numbers.
Falcon,
These show that Jesus is a God as well as The God within the Trinitarian theology. In other words He is both as He is separate from The Father in some ways but one with Him in other ways to make up the Trinity.
Falcon
Ponder the unponderable. We are the most valiant spirits that God sent to inhabit this planet. We do not remember what we did in our pre-mortal existence but we were in the presence of God. Now we live a life where we lack the knowledge we once knew of
God. We are asked to know God the eternal Father and His son Jesus the Christ. How would you compare your life now with your Pre-mortal existent life? Of course you don’t believe in the pre-existence but it is a better thing to think about.
Clyde,
Well since you didn’t didn’t offer any Scriptural support for your statement and asked me to “ponder” your hypothesis; I have and it’s been revealed to me that there is no pre-mortal existence. I’m playing by Mormon rules of the game here. It’s sure a lot easier than actually having to dig into the Word of God. Revelation is the Mormon playground. It provides lots of WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE as you swing on the swings and shoot down the slide with the big twisting curve in it.
Ralph,
I give you credit for trying but the problem is you’re trying to view the Christian doctrine of the nature of God as a Mormon. In-other-words, you are applying Mormon thought to this doctrine as an overlay and it won’t work. It’s the same when you read the Bible with your Mormon spectacles on.
You need to train yourself to “think Christian” Ralph then you’ll understand what God has revealed to us about Himself and what the Church Fathers were saying.
It kind of reminds me of when my daughter was a middle school kid going through Lutheran Confirmation classes (at my wife the Lutheran insistence) and she was starting to think a little deeper about God. She says to me, “Well Dad, technically Jesus is dead.” That led to a very interesting conversation.
Let me give you a hint here Ralph regarding your “a God” thought. How many gods are there Ralph? That’s a good place for you to start.
falcon have you read ecclesiates 12:7? Or jeremiah where God says before I formed thee? The favorite one that anti-abortion foes use! If my spirit returns to God I must have been there before!
For Falcon who can only think like a man. Which I don’t fault him since I myself can only understand some of the Spiritual Truths as they are revealed to me.
Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
So Falcon the mysteries of God are spiritual truths known only by revelation. God reveals his mysteries to those who are obedient to the gospel. Some of God’s mysteries are yet to be revealed.
D&C 101:32–33
32 Yea, verily I say unto you, in that day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things—
33 Things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof—
Falcon, it’s easy to ridicule and mock, but there is a time a place when mocking will need to face the truth as a Patient God with love for all and without embarrassing anyone will explain His mysteries, even to the deniers.
Matt. 13:11
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
You see Falcon, you claim to have the gift of discernment, yet you have not even begun to unscramble the word of God. You claim God has spoken to you and told you the Book of Mormon is a waste of time, so in a sense you are one that refuses to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of God.
Kate read it again, most people would it more then clearly stated by me.
“Kate who is arguing about God being once a man, what you neglect is the rest of the sensationalism that goes with it. God if once a man must have sinned. Lets be honest, the sensationalism is the part about God sinning, so where is that found in our Doctrine, please help me out here?”
1). We have taught that God was once a man.
2). We have never taught He sinned.
3). Speculation by our Evangelical Friends claim that logic and reason show that God must have sinned.
4). No where do we teach this.
Does this clear up your befuddlement?
4).
Brian states,
“Starting Point: Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament.
1. Is Jesus Christ also the God of the New Testament, Helen?
2. If so, this would mean Jesus Christ is the God of the Bible?
3. If so, then Jesus is … God?
4. Jesus is the Bible’s God. But is he your God, Helen?”
“Yet I am the L ORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me” ( Hosea 13:4 ).
“Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ” ( 1 Corinthians 10:1–4 ).
[God] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
~Hebrews 1:2
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.
~Colossians 1:13-16
What strikes me is how Mormon doctrine turns Biblical truth exactly upside down:
Scripture –
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Christian Truth – God came down to earth and became a man, as can be seen in John 1. He came down to live and die on a cross for our sins, conquering death He rose again. He paid the price for us – we are freely forgiven. God is forever a man in Jesus Christ, He ascended into heaven, and we will meet Him there some day. God became man.
Mormon Deception – Man became God, He worked his way up to godhood by righteous living, temple ordinances, and believing in the god who came before him. God is just an exalted man. Man became god.
Which one of these doctrines is supported by Scripture?
In the beginning was Christ and Christ was with God. Christ is the first created of all the Spirits and is also the Son of God not only Spiritually but literally when He was born of Mary.
Clyde,
I have read Ecclesiastes 12:7 in context which means taking in the whole canon of Scripture (the Bible) on what it has to say regarding this subject. Obviously, this is something you haven’t done and I would recommend that you do so in attempting to understand God’s Word – the Bible. The cults are terrible exegetes of Scripture due to their “cherry picking” to create doctrines that are heresy. Ecclesiastes 12:7 simply states that God is the creator. He gives life. There is nothing in the passage that says spirits lived with God before coming to earth.
Have you read Zechariah 12:1? Please do so at this time. The spirit of man is formed WITHIN HIM, not outside of man and sent TO him.
Next, let’s look at Psalm 139:13-16. David was wove IN his mother’s womb, not outside of his mother’s womb and sent TO it. David was saying here that he was created as a human being in his mother’s womb “in the depths of the earth” (Isa 44:23; Psa 68; Eph 4:7-10). David was an unformed substance in God’s “eyes” (the mind of God) in His will of decree for creation.
You mentioned Jeremiah. The text is Jeremiah 1:5. Jeremiah was formed IN THE WOMB. This coincides with the texts above. This shows harmony in the interpretations of all the texts. God knew Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb. The text doesn’t say of Jeremiah that “You knew me.” God’s foreknowledge is undeniable (Isa 46:9-10; Psa 147:5). The context of this verse is referring to Jeremiah’s preordination to a special ministry. God’s knowing someone in this context shows a special love relationship with a person that is very different from His other creatures that He created.
Ralph,
We had a long discussion about the Christian doctrine of the Trinity about two years ago or maybe longer on this blog. Just to recap, here is a simple definition of the doctrine in Christianity:
Within the nature of the one Being/God, there are three distinct Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They are co-eternal, co-existent, co-Substance, and co-equal.
Your statement: “These [creeds] show that Jesus is a God” is not supported by the creedal statements that you cited. For example, look at no. 16: “They are not three Gods, but one God.” The Nicene: “We believe in one God…one being with the Father.” Ralph, the Christian creeds are not the Mormon’s friends. The Nicene creed you stated doesn’t support the LDS view of Jesus when it says of Him: “begotten, not made.” The LDS “jesus” was a created being – not THE Creator. A created being cannot create himself. Whatever was created is not God. The source of that creation is God.
Mormons sound exactly like Jehovah’s Witnesses when they say Jesus is “a God.” The KJV Bible that is part of the LDS Standard Works does not refer to Jesus as “a God.” Sure, the JW’s New World Translation says that Jesus is “a God” (John 1:1), but the KJV Bible that they used for the first 75 years of their existence and still publish today does not say what their new NWT version states. I’ve said this many times before, the JW”s and the Mormons have a great deal in common in doctrines and practices than they realize despite their animosity for each other.
Tritheism (three gods) is a heresy and was denounced in the early days of the Christian church. It’s still a heresy today and it’s one that the Mormons and JW’s continue to believe.