My corny and melodramatic way of getting the word out on Moroni 8:18. Don’t forget about the first explanation video. Enjoy.
I’m also releasing the new Moroni 8:18 four-step tract, which you can download here. Print it double-sided, fold it up, and use it to start focused conversations. I’ll release a video late tonight on how I use it.
Happy Moroni 8:18 day!
Other resources:
Amen!
There is also this list of completely contradictory LDS scriptures:http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/contradictionsinldsscriptures.htm
Do any Mormons care? Why not?
Aaron,
Shame on you for putting out a video that sensationalizes all these things that are not true about Mormonism. Don’t you know there is nothing in Mormon doctrine that says that their god the father was once a sinner. You also left out a very important fact which is that Mormonism is a religion of continual revelation. The BoM was the first revelation. As Joseph Smith and other prophets received more wisdom and light and knowledge from the Mormon god they “progressed” in their understanding.
It doesn’t matter that people are told to read and pray as to whether or not the BoM is true when the LDS religion doesn’t follow what it says. The BoM is still true and so are all of the doctrines and teachings that contradict it.
That my friend is progress!
I wonder if the Mormon people realize just how serious of an issue this is ?
I thought to help LDS see how serious this is I would change Joseph Smith’s
sermon where he taught his new truth of Almighty God not always being God.
I’ve substituted another fundamental truth of the scriptures — the resurrection
of Christ– in place of where Smith revealed his new doctrine on God:
” I am going to inquire after God for I want you all to know the truth of Christ’s
resurrection ….We have imagined and supposed that Christ was raised from the
dead. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil so that you all may see. ”
Do we see how serious this would be? Prophets/apostles taught the opposite : Ps 16:10;
Acts 13: 29-37; Moroni 7:41.
At this point we have a massive decision to make . Either accept this “living” prophet’s
[ Smith] new truth he claims to have received from God, or do the right thing and stand
on the truth of not only the above scriptures but these also : Matt.24:11,24; 2 Cor11:4
Rom.1: 23. Being mindful that no amount works can make up for following a false prophet,
our Mormon friends need to make the liberating decision of dismissing their prophets.
May God give them the time and strength to do so.
Y’know… with all the stress the Church puts on its members to read the BoM and all the thousands of people who do, you’d think that somebody would’ve noticed this by now. I guess maybe they have, they just get silenced by poor rationalization, attempting to ignore it, or excommunication.
mam,
I’ve pointed out several times that Mormons are required to have a testimony of the BoM and the religion isn’t consistent with what these folks are supposedly getting a witness/testimony/inner witness/burning in the bosom for.
That is really strange. What covers the difference is the idea of continuous revelation. I’d say it should be called “progressive confusion”. It seems to not matter at all to Mormons that Joseph Smith went off on a magical mystical tour and developed all kinds of doctrine that are in conflict with what he said was his super duper magic rock enhanced BoM revelation.
Smith was a religious entrepreneur living in an era of religious experimentation. He was full of all sorts of daffy ideas and sold them on the basis of revelation.
What brings me to the boiling point is that Mormons are applying their sincerity, devotion and efforts to a lie, or series of lies. Here they could have all that God is offering them and they reject it in favor of a guy who claimed he had all sorts of visitations from various spirit beings.
All Mormons would have to do is study a little to set the lie to what Mormonism teaches. Ignorance is bliss I guess.
MAM, I agree it is perplexing how the Mormon people don’t seem to understand the
problems their leaders have created. I think it all boils down to the fact of how the
Mormon people have been convinced ( manipulated) to believe they need a prophet
to guide them, they need one man at the top to tell them what God wants them to know
on important issues. To even begin to doubt that the leadership is in error on fundamental
issues is to cultivate the seeds of apostasy. This mentality is fertile ground for spiritual
manipulation by religious leaders. The following is a textbook example of this :
” It should be remembered that Lucifer has a very cunning way of convincing unsuspecting
souls that the General Authorities of the Church are as likely to be wrong as they are to be
right. This sort of game is Satan’s favorite pastime, and he has practiced it on believing
souls since Adam…..He specializes in suggesting that our leaders are in error while he plays
the blinding rays of apostasy in the eyes of those whom he thus beguiles. ” [ Deseret News
5-26-1945 ].
Add to this the extremely busy church life that most LDS adhere to , and it’s easy to see how
these precious people can so easily just accept what their leadership recommends to them
as being spiritual truth. At any time these spiritual guides could proclaim that a 4th Divine
person is admitted to their Godhead to be worshipped ( Heavenly Mother) , most LDS would
simply go along with it . That would be about the same kind of “revealment” that
prophet Joseph Smith made when he rejected Biblical prophets and even Book of Mormon
testimony on God being always God , etc.
falcon,
You’re right on the money. “New revelation” always supercedes old revelation in the Mormon world. The understanding that past revelations need to coincide with new revelations seems to be a foreign concept to them. Why something so simple is so difficult for them to comprehend, I don’t know. Drives me nuts.
Mike,
I’ve always been skeptical of any religion that places major emphasis on a man to lead them. Yes, individual churches have pastors to help guide them, but everything that pastor says must line up with God’s word. In the Mormon world, it’s pretty much a free-for-all for the prophets.
You touched on the exact issue I believe the majority of questioning Mormons put their blinders on and don’t leave… they’re scared. Those who have grown up in the religion are told that anyone who leaves will be cast into outer darkness. My sis-in-law left the church (for Jesus), and my husband’s brother told her she was officially going to hell. To me, that seems to be the biggest barrier. Even if it’s clear as day to them that the “one true church” isn’t true at all, they’re still hesitant to leave. Because in the back of their minds, there’s that thought of “what if it is?? I’ll be going to hell!”
Quote “All Mormons would have to do is study a little to set the lie to what Mormonism teaches. Ignorance is bliss I guess.”
For someone who never read the book of Mormon these words define nicely, “contradiction”.
But then again, a born again Christian is infused with Holy Discernment, why study when you admit to a subjective experience. Smiling out Loud. 🙂 Ignorance is bliss.
Helen, here is the problem, I as have many others read all standard works. We have seen the problems, showed them to you and other LDS. You refuse to honestly debate them, andswer the question asked and bury your head in the sand. Sadly Ignorance is not bliss, it will send you to an eterinty in Hell apart from Jesus. Not Smiling over this.
Mind control is a terrifying thing. The first question I had that started my journey out was “Why did Joseph Smith draw a bald head on the God of Anubis?” I knew who Anubis was in the Egyptian world. That led to “Why is he saying that the 4 ancient Canopic jars with the four sons of Horace on them are idolatrous gods?” I had question after question. When I asked family about this, absolutely NO ONE was willing to talk about it or answer questions. I was told that I needed to pray because I was losing my faith. I can’t tell you how many times I was told this in that first year. In fact in that first year, I wouldn’t be caught dead on this site. I refused to look at anything that wasn’t “church approved” What I did do is study the church approved Book of Abraham and then on to the Journal of Discourses. In fact everything a person needs to see that this is a false religion is right there in the publications of the LDS church. So much contradiction, I’m sorry but continuing revelation just doesn’t cut it. God would never confuse us as to who He is. I was so terrified that I was going to hell. That’s pretty much what I was taught. Apostates go to hell. There is nothing worse than a Mormon apostate. In Mormonism an apostate does not have eternal life.
“Save for those few who defect to perdition after having known a fulness [sic], there is no habit, no addiction, no rebellion, no transgression, no offense exempted from the promise of complete forgiveness.” (Apostle Boyd K. Packer ” The Brilliant Morning of Forgiveness”)
(Cont.)
It’s no wonder people are afraid to question or leave. Being seen as an apostate, especially in Utah is a scary thing. Not to mention the shunning, judgment and possible loss of family members who will not be seen with an apostate. Fear is a powerful tool used by people who want to control. That is what Mormon leaders are after. Control. Just think of all that power, money, etc. I don’t see these leaders as the meek, moral minded men that others do. These leaders know that they are not speaking directly to God. They know that they are not seeing Jesus with their own eyes, they knew they were being deceitful with the whole Mark Hoffman affair, etc. I don’t tolerate all the lying by omission they teach their missionaries. I don’t see anything moral in any of this. I believe the absolute worst thing is that the true and living God of the Bible is being traded for fables. 2 Timothy 4:4
WOW Kate!
That’s what got you started on your road out of Mormonism? That kind of blows me away; that you’d have Anubus and the false gods of Egypt as your starting point. Most Mormons wouldn’t even notice these things. It wouldn’t even appear on their radar screen. Good for you. You get five out of five stars. I mean I’m really impressed. Again, most Mormons would just let it go by without questioning. You must have been a difficult child to raise always asking questions especially “why”. It also shows a lot of moxie and determination not to be intimidated.
I think I get the drift of where you’re coming from. I married a very independent, self-sufficient woman and I must say, contrary to what some men might be looking for in a wife, it really takes the pressure off of me. ( just a side-bar thrown in at no extra charge).
I would think that in order for a woman to survive and thrive in Mormonism, they’d have to be pretty compliant and not given to questioning much. I think it was Sandra Tanner who tells the story about her mother who’d drive the ward leadership nuts because she’d be questioning things all the time. As I remember the story, she left Mormonism but didn’t come to Christ until towards the end of her life.
You tell me how someone can just skip along in Mormonism knowing that the BoM reveals one God and the King Follett discourse another one? I guess it’s the fear you talked about is what locks these folks into the program. Once they lose that fear, Mormonism has nothing with which to hold them except to pull out some shame and guilt.
falcon,
I am a history buff and I’d studied ancient Egypt some. This is what caught my eye. An article in an Ensign that said “Proof that the Book of Abraham is True.” Now to be honest, I really hadn’t studied much about the BoA so I was curious. The article was ridiculous. I saw no proof what so ever. Panic is what I felt. I think I knew right then that Mormonism is false. I can’t speak for all Mormons, but from what I have experienced, those of us born into it don’t question anything. Generations of our families lived it. It’s just passed down, culture and all. It’s hard to explain. The prophet is a true prophet and Mormons are the only ones who belong to Christ’s true church. Everyone else is lost or led by Satan. Fear is a big part of it. No one wants to go to hell for being an apostate. I think that is one thing that keeps those who do question in it. I think the excuse for those that “skip along in Mormonism knowing that the BoM reveals one God and the King Follett discourse another one” is continuing revelation. It would seem that anything can and is changed claiming this. Just look at how some of the Mormon posters here comment. They fail to ask the next logical question. You can’t show someone errors if they aren’t willing to look. I don’t think anyone can drive the ward crazy with questions now days, they even place a member of the bishopric in the relief society room to keep an eye out. Creepy if you ask me. The thing is, when I was a Mormon, I would somehow justify the guy in relief society with us.
falcon,
“I would think that in order for a woman to survive and thrive in Mormonism, they’d have to be pretty compliant and not given to questioning much.”
I think you are right. I do see a lot of independent Mormon women though. I think for some of those women it’s not about truly believing in the religion, it’s more about social status. Utah is difficult to live in if you are not Mormon. Especially for the kids growing up. It’s hard for kids of different faiths, especially in smaller communities. They are left out a lot, and sometimes treated cruelly. Social status can be very important to some. This is the fruit of a works based system. Being judgmental, thinking one is higher in spiritual intelligence, better because they don’t smoke or drink an occasional beer or glass of wine. It’s even horrifying if someone drinks a cup of coffee! My sister in law was told that NO ONE should even have a coffee maker in their home. Everyone is watching everyone else to see which parts of the word of wisdom are being broken. Where is Jesus in any of this. Didn’t he say that it’s not what goes into our mouths that defiles us but what comes out of our mouths? The word of wisdom was put in as a commandment by later leaders. I think it was just another form of control. There are truly genuine Mormons who are moral, good people, I know many, I don’t know why they don’t question anything, other than they just trust their leaders and may be terrified of losing faith in Mormonism and what that would mean. For many others, it’s a climb up the social ladder.
Kate,
I don’t have any experience living in a predominate Mormon dominated environment but what you describe is what I’ve read from other people who have left Mormonism. You’re right. It is a form of control. It would take a very strong person to not get into the game. But is sounds like part of the culture.
On another topic, I’m guessing one of the things that those of you who have left Mormonism had to come to grips with was that maybe, just maybe, God hadn’t confirmed to you that the BoM is true. That would be a big step for someone because if God hadn’t “spoken” to them regarding the truthfulness of the BoM, what else hadn’t spoken to you about. Revelation is a big part of being a Mormon and having that confirming feeling is a powerful tool to sell and maintain faith in the program.
Actually it’s a big part of the religious experience of many Christians also. Joseph Smith borrowed that from the evangelical Christian revivalism of the 19th century. Years ago I had a Christian friend who was always connecting the dots with everything that was going on in her life seeing God’s hand here and there and every where. She enjoyed it and for the most part it was a harmless activity.
But what happens when someone is having these marvelous emotionally satisfying rewards and they find out that they are attaching them to a myth? Not only that but that they have been systematically lied to regarding the religion.
I can see why many exMormons become atheists.
Rick B. here is a question, I believe in the preexistence and that eternal laws rule the Universe, judgement is also eternal. Justice is always in need of payment since sin is also eternal.
Do you believe that sin is eternal, never created? or do you believe that God who is Eternal created sin?
falcon,
When I came to the truth that the Book of Abraham was a sham, I did think about the Book of Mormon. If Joseph Smith lied about the BoA then what else did he lie about? I researched out the Journal of Discourses first. It was about a year later that I dared look for proof of the Book of Mormon. What I found was that there is absolutely no historical, linguistic, or archeological evidence whatsoever. I also found out that JS put a rock in his hat and stuffed his face into it. That did it for me. Lies. Lies told at church, lies told by leaders. I had my kids in the mall last week school clothes shopping and we walked past an LDS store that sold lots of religious paintings. Front and center by the door was a painting of JS translating the gold plates. He was sitting with the plates on his lap and a pair of spectacles. Seriously? Why not paint the rock, or have his face stuffed into the hat? Why not paint the truth?
“Our history is especially critical, because in a sense, we rise or fall with our history,” he said. “If those early beginning stories that Joseph Smith told us are true, then we are the only true church as we contend. If they’re not true, then we don’t have what we purport to have.” (Elder Marlin K. Jensen: Mormon Times, Nov 19, 2009.)
Time and research have shown that the BoA & BoM are not what JS claimed them to be. The LDS church does not have what it purports to have. May everyone caught in the Mormon lie come to the Saving Grace of the true and living God of the Bible.
falcon,
For me, I never really had the burning in the bosom about the BoM. I just believed it because it was passed down and that’s all I knew. How many Mormons are like I was? I always had a nagging doubt about JS and his story, but I would find a way to bury that and just move on in the religion. As long as I believed the current prophet I felt I was OK. Mormonism has morphed into something that would be unrecognizable to Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and many past leaders. I wonder what they would say if they were here? What would they say about their history being changed or out right lied about? I would love to see the look on Brigham Young’s face when Mormon apologists say that his revelations were just his own opinion! You are right about ex Mormons becoming Atheist. I almost did. I felt that all men lie when it comes to religion. I still don’t trust anything that is “organized” or has “rules and regulations.”
Kate,
Let’s face it, if alive today, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young would be members of the FLDS. They wouldn’t have anything to do with the SLC LDS which is located some where between the Community of Christ and the Temple Lot Mormon sects and the FLDS. I don’t know what the SLC Mormon denomination is all about. At least the COC and TL can claim that they are “original” Mormonism. The FLDS can claim that they are “Nauvoo” Mormonism. About the only thing that the SLC sect can claim is that they are apostate Mormons.
BTW
I can see right now what the Mormons will say about you. They will say that you never really had a testimony of the BoM despite all of your study and research. So you’d be no better than me who has never read the BoM (although I have some time in on the research and study side of the equation).
It’s the Mormon game Kate!
falcon,
You are right, Mormons will say that about me. I’m still wondering how a Mormon knows that they are living THE true Mormonism. There are so many different sects. I’ve said all that before so I won’t say it again. I have heard FLDS say that members of the LDS are apostate. I’ve also heard the LDS say all other sects are apostates. Gordon Hinckley even said that there is no such thing as Fundamentalist Mormons. So much for being the only true church.
A little off topic but I ran into something that has me thinking. So I was reading about the restoration and why there would be no need for a restoration according to the BoM. In 3 Nephi 28 it says that the Apostle John and three Nephites are still tarrying on the earth until Christ returns. They are supposedly ministering the original gospel and still maintain all authority. According to this, there was never a complete falling away of the church because at least four are and have been around with this gospel and authority. So how can Mormons claim that their was a great apostasy if these four have been preaching the Mormon gospel all along? Just a curious question for you.
Kate,
You are so right regarding the LDS claim of apostles still walking the earth. I’ve sent your question on to Andy Watson asking if he might respond. It’s something that he talked to me about a long time ago and I can’t quite remember what his comments where.
Let’s face it, Mormonism was a kind of “make-it-up-as-you-go-along” religious experiment. Guys like Joseph Smith and those that were following him, were really into endless speculation, being impressed with their random thoughts that they called “revelation”. They were unencumbered by any sort of ecclesiastic authority so they could just wing it and say that it came from God.
Add in all of their supposed supernatural appearances from spirit beings and that’s how the show was sold. They were super into second sight vision so these “appearances” were not of the actual manifestation, but existed in the recesses of their own minds.
Spiritual truths in the Book of Mormon ? Yes.
A main purpose of the BM is “…to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is
the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting Himself to all nations…” I believe that. The BM
does contain numerous verses that proclaim that fundamental truth , this is why on the
cover of my 1981 ed. it says ” Another testament of Jesus Christ” . It certainly does agree
with the Bible on this truth, no doubt about it. This Book not only testifies FOR some great
spiritual truths , but it also testifies AGAINST some very dangerous false teachings. One such
doctrine is the one that is the topic of this thread, and there others of such importance that to
embrace them would put a person in danger of losing out on any kind of eternal happiness
after death. What about moral teachings? No doubt about it , the BM does testify of some
very important moral issues worth living which would be consistent with a Christian lifestyle.
So does all this mean that the BM is God’s Word ? Not really. Other Books contain some
important truths about Jesus, for instance, the Koran says Jesus was a prophet. So does the
BM /Bible. However does that go far enough to establish the Koran as God’s Word ? The
following statement is so very important to remember when pondering the above information:
There’s a huge difference between the truths contained IN the Book of Mormon and the truth
or authenticity OF the Book itself. So we must be wise of LDS prophets who attempt to use the
BM in a way that implies that they are true prophets for today.
Very Good Mike R.
Some of the things that the boys over at FAIR and FARMS and other amateur Mormon apologists have had to deal with regarding the veracity of the BoM include this boilerplate list that can be accessed from any number of websites which discuss the BoM:
Linguistics. Why, if the American Indians were descended from Lehi, was there such diversity in their languages, and why were there no vestiges of Hebrew in any of them?
Why does the Book of Mormon say that Lehi found horses when he arrived in America? The horse did not exist in the Americas until the Spaniards brought them over in the sixteenth century.
Why was Nephi stated to have a bow of steel? Jews did not have steel at that time, and no iron was smelted in the Americas until the Spanish colonization.
Why does the Book of Mormon mention “swords and cimeters” when scimitars (the current spelling) did not come about until the rise of Islam after 500 A.D.?
Why does the Book of Mormon mention silk when silk did not exist in the Americas at that time?
This is not an exhaustive list but it’s enough to wet the appetite of a questioning Mormon. The FAIR/FARMS explanations tend to be more than a little lame but let’s face it, when people want to believe something, any explanation will do. These are what I call “all better now” explanations that many Mormons will accept rather than face the pain of giving up on the false religious system.
Finally, Joseph Smith claimed that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth (History of the Church, 4:461). Yet it has been subjected to thousands of corrections and alterations since it was first published?
Attribution for the above.
http://contenderministries.org/mormonism/bomproblems.php
Great Secret of the Book of Mormon — “”For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.”
Interesting that two words stand out, partial and changeable. God loves all his children there is none, no not one He is more partial to then another. Black, white, yellow , our God is color blind. Handsome, beautiful, common or physically defective, He love us. Mormon, Christian, Muslim or Hindu, God is not partial he loves us. All those who honor God, He will honor us back also, love is the foundation of all honor. We are to honor what our Heavenly Father loves.
So we find a common Father in Heaven, unchangeable. Not only now but for all eternity and even from eternity. How can God love and be unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.
The term unchangeable God is not referencing a physical state.
Question, if God is unchangeable, why did He receive something he already had. When something is given it surely means they are receiving something they never had.
Matthew 28:18
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Hebrews 13:8
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Yet we learn from the scriptures that Jesus “increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man” Luke 2:52
Falcon, another problem for me concerning what should I do with the Book of Mormon
concerns statements from Mormon leaders such as where they’ve said that adhering to
the precepts found in the BM will get me closer to God than any other book. I imagine
that a correct view of God would get me closer to God , or knowing exactly what was
required of me to do in order to gain eternal life with God would be another necessary
precept etc. So this is quite the claim considering the people have the Bible also. Also,
in concerning the BM as a moral compass to live by , I ask myself , “do I really need it”?
Is’nt the Bible sufficient for this ? In my notes I collect there’s a review of a book by
Pres. Gordon B. Hinckley , titled, ” Stand for Something” subtitled “Ten neglected virtues
that will heal our hearts and homes”. I did not buy this book but I ran accross a review of
it and jotted some notes. In his book Pres.Hinckley speaks of 10 cardinal virtues needed in
American Society and he quotes liberally from the Bible, but not once by chapter and verse
from any uniquely Mormon scriptures etc. Now if this is true it only confirms for me why I
don’t really need the BM . The Bible has been my guide in establishing my values as a
Christian. So for me personally I can say that I really don’t the BM as a authoritative guide
in my life. I don’t curse it and I try never to disparage those who do think they need it. The
modern-day LDS prophets are true or not. That’s the real question. Matt7:15
Helen said
Really? Then how do you handle verse like where Jesus said, Depart from me into ever lasting Fire?
or,
The Bible tells us that Lucifer wanted to exalt himself above God, So sin entered Lucifer, the how it happened is not mentioned in the Bible, so as some on this site have said before, I will say also. Where the Bible is silent, we are to remain silent.
Rick,
Whenever a question is asked by a Mormon referencing “God”, I want to know what “God” they are talking about. In the case of the God that is revealed in the Bible, His very essence is holiness. Now if we’re talking about the Mormon gods, we know that they were all sinful men before progressing to becoming gods so the lineage of these millions and billions of gods contains sin as part of their corrupted nature I would think.
There is no systematic theology in Mormonism so the religion is a playground of speculation.
The Great Apostasy: Part 1
Mormonism, like all non-Christian contemporary religious movements that were birthed in the 19th century, must attempt to proclaim some reason for their existence now taking place on this planet at this time. One thing that Mormons share with other non-Christian cults and false religions of the world was that there was an apostasy in which all of Christendom has spiraled into thus making Christianity disappear and the need for a return or restoration. A prophet or seer proclaims that he is that person, claims divine revelation writes new scripture and claims all are in error but he and his new church. Mormonism joins a large group of these movements that all have the same background and claim (most notably their arch rivals: the Jehovah’s Witnesses).
Mormons cite 2 Thes 2:3 as the proof-text all the while not reading it in context with other Scripture before and after it along with not understanding the historical context, background, and audience Paul was writing. Will there be an apostasy? Yes, but did it occur when the Mormons said it took place and was it all of Christianity meaning every believer on the face of the earth? Not hardly. I simply ask Mormons to look at 1 Tim 4:1 where it says that “some shall depart from the faith.” SOME is not ALL.
I then like to ask the Mormon this question: How do you know this isn’t referring to you? Maybe Paul was referring to Joseph Smith and the Mormons?
James Talmage, an LDS authority who wrote the LDS’ authoritative work entitled “Articles of Faith,” also wrote a book entitled “The Great Apostasy,” in which the LDS have solidified their historically groundless charge that Christianity completely disappeared from the face of the earth.
Apostasy: Part 2
Talmage stated: “If the alleged apostasy of the primitive church was not a reality, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the divine institution its name proclaims” (Talmage, The Great Apostasy, Preface). Talmage knew full-well what was at stake (historically) when he put forth this thesis in the preface of his book. The Mormon Church has no claim of existence in this universe if Christianity has not gone into apostasy. There are two key pillars that can possibly validate Mormonism being the true religion: Joseph Smith being a true prophet and a great apostasy of Christianity. If either one or both of these pillars is broken, then the whole LDS building comes crumbling to the ground.
Mormons’ love affair and loyalty with Joseph Smith is a sensitive issue. The subject of the great apostasy is one I like to engage Mormons with because it is one they don’t seem to have reservations about discussing or canned answers that have been given to them by their leaders to give to Christians. I have been able to bring up this issue and ask questions at the LDS ward with great success with the Spirit’s enablement and power. If Christianity did not cease to exist and that can be proven, then Mormonism, by its own definition, collapses on itself. It can be proven and effectively demonstrated by LDS scriptures and references, Bible references, and Christian church history. We begin with another quote:
“Nothing less than a complete apostasy of the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (History of the Church, page XL).
This quote from the LDS’ history of their church coupled with Talmage’s quote is in agreement. I am thankful for their continuity on this point.
Apostasy: Part 3
The Christian’s first stop should always begin and end with the Word of God: the Bible. What did Jesus Christ say regarding the future state of His church? We land at Matthew 16:18 = “…upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” What is “this rock”? It’s the confession that Peter just made in verse 16. Jesus Christ is the rock: 1 Cor 10:4. The Mormons have to agree with this because their own scriptures state the same: Helaman 5:12 and Moses 7:53.
The Mormons claim that there was a total apostasy. This would logically mean that Christ’s church was overcome by the gates of hell prevailing against it despite Christ saying that this would not take place. Do the Mormons state this is what happened? I ask them if this took place. Most of them say “no” because they know what this would mean: Jesus lied. However, Mormon sources give their brethren a crushing blow:
“Jesus made his appearance on the earth in the meridian of time, and he established his kingdom on the earth…the kingdoms of this world made war against the kingdom of God, established eighteen centuries ago, AND THEY PREVAILED AGAINST IT, and the kingdom ceased to exist” (Mormon apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13:125). [Note: the words of Mormon apostles are equated as one in the same with their prophets and should be adhered to by Mormons in D&C 1:14]
It’s a “Kodak moment” on the faces of Mormons when this quote is read to them. That look soon turns pale when the issue of Jesus’ lying comes into play. To say that there was a total apostasy is to credit Jesus with a gross lie and is blasphemous. God cannot lie.
Apostasy: Part 4
It’s impossible to reconcile this LDS claim of the gates of hell prevailing against Christ when He has all power in heaven and earth (Matt 28:18). Christians received a kingdom that cannot be moved (Heb 12:28). After all, Christ is the foundation (1 Cor 3:11). The Lord was adding to His Church daily (Acts 2:47). Did Jesus Christ not tell the truth? Is He not the foundation? Are the forces of evil stronger than the omnipotent God? These and many other questions are what the Mormons must answer based on their claim of a total apostasy thus justifying their corporate endeavors in real estate to build their pagan temples.
The Book of Mormon spends almost an entire chapter (3 Nephi 28) discussing three Nephites along with the Apostle John that were to not “taste death” (vs. 7-8) and were to remain alive until the return of Christ. Right now we have four people supposedly in the Mormon world who were alive during the time of Christ on the earth and who are supposedly still alive now if one is to believe the BOM. Verse 30 states that “they are as the angels of God” and “they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good.” Really? I would like to know why one of these four hasn’t bothered to come to Salt Lake City and visit the prophet. Look, if the LDS Church wants instant credibility based on their claim of these four people being alive, all they have to do is have Monson and the Apostle John come forward and present them together to the seeing world. Not one prophet has had a visit from these four individuals. Where are they? What have they been doing all these years?
Apostasy: Part 5
3 Nephi 28:31 states that “great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them”. Are there great and marvelous works today? If any of this were true (these four being alive), then we would expect to have seen LDS wards and temples throughout the world prior to the arrival of Joseph Smith. What have these three Nephites and John been doing all these hundreds and hundreds of years? Where are they now? Have they apostastatized themselves and now on permanent vacation in Aruba or Argentina?
John is mentioned in D&C 7. He supposedly asked Jesus to let him live forever so that he “may live and bring souls unto thee” (v. 2). Is John doing this now? Was he doing this before Joseph Smith’s adventure in the woods of Palmyra, New York? John was told by Jesus to “prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people” (v. 3). Is John doing this? John, where are you? If John didn’t die, then why were there a complete apostasy and the need for a restoration as Joseph Smith stated? If the three Nephites and John were alive and doing what they were commanded to do, then there would be no need for Joseph Smith or Thomas Monson today. The Apostle John should have an apartment in Salt Lake City – not Monson, a mere prophet.
The truth: John is dead. This is a well-known, historical fact. Jerome wrote about his death:
“He [John] returned to Ephesus under Nerva Pertinax and continuing there until the time of emperor Trajan, founded and built churches throughout Asia, and, worn out by old age, dies in the sixty-eighth year after our Lord’s passion and was buried near the same city” (The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Jerome, pp. 364-5).
Apostasy: Part 6
Mormons will cite John 21:22-24 in a hopeless attempt to make this theory work. It fails miserably because verse 23 states, “yet Jesus said NOT unto him [John], he shall not die”. John would know. He is the writer of this gospel. He puts to rest this false belief that he will not die. Jesus is telling Peter to mind his own business. Peter needed to live his own life of faithfulness and not compare himself to others.
Where does all this lead in Mormonism. On page 657 in their Bible dictionary under heading “Dispensations” it states: “A dispensation of the gospel is a period of time in which the Lord has at least ONE AUTHORIZED SERVANT ON THE EARTH who bears the holy priesthood and the keys, and who has a divine commission to dispense the gospel to the inhabitants of the earth.”
With that said and according to LDS scriptures, John met those qualifications. Therefore, by their Mormons’’ own doctrine and definitions there couldn’t have been a total apostasy and need for restoration by Joseph Smith. The priesthood was never lost because John never died and should still be proselytizing the LDS gospel.
Do you really think that the Old Testament prophecies and all that happened culminating up until the time of the New Testament, the birth of Jesus, His ministry, His trial, His persecution and suffering leading up to His death, the crucifixion, His death and resurrection, the labors and persecutions of the early Christian believers, etc., all took place so that the church could be dissolved in 300 years? Does that sound logical to you? How does the LDS Church explain the massive amount of historical writings by Christian church fathers and theologians from 300-1830 A.D.?
Apostasy: Part 7
How about the Book of Mormon? Jesus Christ supposedly comes to America, institutes church ordinances including the priesthood to the Nephites, establishes His church all for the very people he gave it to be completely destroyed in 421 A.D. all the while Christ knowing that these events would take place? Is that even reasonable from an LDS perspective?
Christ promised suffering for His followers (Phil 1:29), but that is a fry cry from Jesus stating that all His followers would be wiped out entirely and totally. There isn’t one shred of evidence anywhere historically or otherwise to support the LDS claim. It has been demonstrated above that even their own sources and scriptures disqualifies their claims. How do the Mormons explain God’s silence (in their view) between 421 A.D. and 1830? Were there not any converts by John and the three Nephites? If not, why not? If so, where are they? They didn’t believe in missions? Why isn’t there even one sentence in the massive amount of historical writings by Christian fathers during this time period to back up this claim? Why do we even have their writings? These shouldn’t exist either!
In conclusion, if we are to believe the Mormon “authorities” and claims, Jesus didn’t tell the truth as reported by Matthew in his gospel. Jesus doesn’t have all authority. He doesn’t have all power. The powers of darkness overrun His kingdom and church. Christ was an absolute failure in the Father’s directive for the redemption of mankind. Christ came to save His people and not lose one of them. All that the Father gave to the Son not one would be lost. However, I guess Jesus blew it according to the Mormons. Praise God the Mormons are wrong and not God (Heb 6:18).
Andy,
The Mormon claim of the “apostasy” of Christianity is total foolishness and thus is their claim of the need for a “restoration”.
I always ask for their evidence that Mormonism existed in the first century Church. I guess that Mormonism really must have gotten lost since there’s not a trace of it in the NT nor does it appear any where in the writings of the Church Fathers or in the writings of the heretics I might add.
Mormons would have us believe that the early Christians believed that there are millions perhaps billions of gods; that these gods are all former sinful men who became gods; that early Christians had temples in which they practiced Free Masonry rituals, that the apostles and early Christians were polygamists and that they wore sacred underwear with occult symbols on them.
I suppose the apostles and Church Fathers all had magic rocks with which they depended for the reception of secret coded messages written in the yet to be discovered reformed Egyptian language.
It’s really a shame that Mormons don’t bother to ask any questions when they receive that pat little statement that “after the death of the apostles the Church went into apostasy and needed the original gospel to be restored.” It doesn’t take much to debunk that piece of nonsense.
As you rightly pointed out, there was no need for a restoration because the Gospel of Jesus Christ was never lost.
The Bible, in Romans 6:23 summarizes Christ’s Gospel perfectly when it says, “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”. (NASV)
That’s it. We are sinners by nature and in need of a Savior. God made provision for us by becoming a man and dying on the Cross for our sins.
Christ appoints 12 apostles, gives them the Keys of the Kingdom, they even appoint a new one after the death of Judas to maintain 12 and then bingo they are all gone and the Orthodox Church refuses to recognize that authority anymore and fails to say where the keys went.
Then the million dollar blooper: “I always ask for their evidence that Mormonism existed in the first century Church.”
Apostles anyone?
Andy, I think you pretty much established the truth that the Mormon church is not
what it claims to be. May the Mormon people come to see that eternal life is not
through a religion touting a man as the mouthpiece of God , Temple rituals, etc. but
that receiving eternal life is thru a Person who has given us a written record of Himself
that people could access and learn from for 2000 yrs now . He has always met people
right where they are, and those that have found Him have done so throughout these last
2000 yrs.
Andy,
Thanks so much for your comments about the Apostasy! It was very informative. As a Mormon I knew that John and the three Nephites were said to be roaming the earth. I just never asked any questions after that. Until now that is. What amazes me is how Mormons just dismiss what Jesus himself said. What also amazes me is how Helen just dismissed absolutely EVERYTHING you said and comes up with the lame excuse of LDS apostles. What about all the other sects of Mormonism? Don’t they have apostles as well? Didn’t Jesus have only 12? How many apostles are there in Mormonism counting all sects? Hundreds. This is not proof that there was a great apostasy. She seems to be claiming that because the Apostles died, that made the great apostasy. Didn’t the Apostles teach the early church fathers so they could carry on? My hope today is that every Mormon reading this will search out the words of Jesus himself and see the apostasy as the fraud that it is. Thanks for responding to my question!
Helen,
You indeed are the queen of confusion. The apostles died, the church didn’t appoint any more and the authority vanished as did the Gospel?
What evidence do you provide Helen that the Gospel of Jesus Christ vanished after the original twelve apostles died? What evidence do you provide that Mormonism as you practice it, was practiced by the first century Church?
What’s the qualification for being an apostles Helen? Some teach that an apostle has to have seen Jesus. In fact Mormons have been taught in the past that the grand poh bahs of the Mormon church have had Jesus appear to them individually. Has Thomas Monson had Jesus appear to him Helen?
I know of Christian churches that have apostles. Do a quick google search Helen on modern day Christian apostles and prophets and see what you come up with.
Your problem Helen is you’ve been taught some rat-a-tat-tat Mormon mumbo jumbo and you just repeat it without doing any real research.
I would commend our poster and exMormon Kate to you as an example of someone who had the courage to ask the tough questions and search for answers beyond the pablum that is fed at the Mormon wards.
Kate, God is so merciful and awesome ! He has never left Himself hidden from
humanity for these last 2000 yrs. We have His great promise on that:
” I do not ask Thee to take them out of this world, but to keep them from the evil
one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the
truth, Thy word is truth. As Thou didst send Me into the world, I also sent them
into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may
be sanctified in truth. I do not ask in behalf of these alone, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO
WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD.” [ Jn.17:15-20]
“those” = us !
You know Helen’s claim that after the death of the apostles the church neglected to appoint any more (apostles) is so inane and childish that you wonder what kind of people would swallow this Mormon nonsense. I guess the first century apostles really blew-it if they didn’t appoint any more apostles. After all that would have been their responsibility if they were to do it. Talk about inept, right? If the church didn’t appoint any more apostles maybe there was a reason. Maybe they were instructed not to. Who knows?
Can anyone show me a reference from the NT that says that apostles are to be appointed? Were the original 12 and then Matthias the only apostles? What does Acts 14:14 say? Oops we have Paul and Barnabas. We know Paul saw Jesus, did Barnabas? How did Barnabas get to be an apostle? In Titus 1:5-9 Paul gives instructions about appointing elders. Don’t see anything here about appointing apostles. In Acts 6:2-6 we see the appointing of what became known as “deacons”, but no apostles. Does the Mormon church have deacons?
I would guess delving into church history might provide information regarding apostles. Yea, but that would mean actually doing some work.
Falcon, the Mormons ordain 12yr old boys as Deacons. Brigham ordained one of his
sons , age 11, as an Apostle, though this boy was not admitted to the Council of the 12
Apostles. Strange. This is kind of off topic so I’ll quit.
Jesus warned of men who would come claiming spiritual authority and through this
would mislead people . Joseph Smith was one such man, his claim was clear :
” I combat the errors of ages….” [ History of the Church v.6p.78], he proceeded
to teach what these errors were. One such “error” was that people had imagined and
supposed that the Creator was always God . This “error” was relayed down through
the ages from Biblical times to the present .Thus Smith revealing the actual truth
from God on this issue taught his followers the who the Creator really was. People who
were accustomed to relying on past prophet’s testimony — prophets in the Bible
and the Book of Mormon , were now being asked to leave those dead prophets in favor
of a “living ” prophet said to be hand-picked by God. Adding to this new truth about
God subsequent Mormon prophets have added additional spiritual insight on this doctrine.
Gods, Goddesses, human males evolving to be worshipped themselves one day as Almighty
Gods, all this “truth” coming from professed ” modern -day prophets” . Those LDS who
have not heard of this before need to realize how dangerous of a belief this is. It would
be unfortunate for them to ignore this just because they see where their leaders also teach
a moral lifestyle etc. Even Brigham Young said that the devil mixes in error with truth. One
Mormon apostle correctly stated that to be wrong on fundamental doctrine, who God is etc.,
is enough to lose your salvation.So the Mormon people have a very sobering choice to make.
Either be true to the Creator and proclaim his solid truth [ Psalms 90:2] or embrace the
teaching by their “latter-day” prophets. Eternal life is at stake.
I think Aaron did a wonderful job with this. Exposing the fallacies of Mormonism in a way that makes sense of a gift he has. Thanks, Aaron!
I love reading what Helen has to say. The best part is that I used to be a Helen, fighting against the Truth and the Light with the same naivete. When one is fed nothing but false doctrine, it’s difficult to admit the fallacies in theology and in reason.
Apostles anyone? Well, there were qualifications for apostles. An apostle had to be with Christ during his earthly ministry and be a witness of His resurrection. The only one who did not fit this was Paul, but then what happened on the road to Damascus was amazing. His writings often address the question of his authority, which some people questioned because of the aforementioned qualifications. Today, there isn’t a single LDS “apostle” who fills the requirements. We are built on the apostles, which basically refers to their writings. The Bible is foundational for Christians. For Mormons, the Church (their leaders) is their foundation. This replicates the reason for the great schism between Rome (Catholicism) and the reformers. Martin Luther led the charge against Church authority and stood for “sola scriptura.” It’s funny how Mormonism actually tastes like Catholicism in this regard.
Regarding sin, it is the product of man going wrong. God did not create sin. Mormonism has built a religion in which sin was necessary for the plan of salvation to unfold. Adam needed to sin so that the “spirits” in heaven could come down and receive bodies and be tested here on earth. That makes no sense.
Peace…
“Apostles anyone” jackg, you were doing great then you tumbled when you allowed Paul a bye.
Helen,
How many apostles are there in Mormonism??? Even the LDS don’t have it right. Aren’t there 15 men leading your church? You need to face the fact that the LDS are not the only Mormons. I’ve read there are over 200 sects and I’ve read there are 70, so even if we take the lower number that would make 840 Mormon apostles. Tell me, did Jesus have 840 apostles? Did you even read Andy’s comments? What about John and the three Nephites? John would have the keys of the kingdom right? He was an original apostle of Christ. If Jesus left those 4 here to never tasted death and preach his gospel until his return, then he left them all authority as the BoM says. Why aren’t you responding to this? This was my original question. Answer the question Helen. Your so proud of the BoM and it’s teachings, so shout out to the world that you believe the apostle John and the three Nephites are roaming the earth still to this day doing a marvelous work! Oh that’s right, if you admit to that, then you would have to admit that there was no apostasy because the gospel hadn’t been lost. You would have to admit that if there was no apostasy, there was no need for a restoration and Joseph Smith is a false prophet and that would mean you are following a false god and so on. It sort of snowballs doesn’t it?
Helen,
Well, I actually didn’t allow Paul a bye. The LORD Jesus Christ did that. I just reported what history has shown us as revealed through God’s word.
Peace…