“He makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.” (Matthew 5:45)
“I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee…” (Hosea 11:9)
“But will God in very deed dwell with men on earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!” (2 Chronicles 6:18)
“but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” (Romans 5:8; something I wish the video visualized)
Think about the contrast: We could literally spatially contain the deity of the Mormon God in a coffin. While our God became a man, the Mormon deity is just a man who became an exalted man.
It’s hard to fit Love in a coffin.
Further reading: Two natures of Jesus
This is very good because it gets to the heart of the matter as we contrast orthodox Biblical Christianity with Mormonism. It gets back to question number one of the catechism, “Who is God?” Christians base their view on who God is by examining His revealed Word the Holy Bible and following the traditional teachings of the Church as handed down by God’s apostles and prophets. The Mormon God can’t be found in the Bible. The Mormon God can’t even be found in the book Joseph Smith wrote, the Book of Mormon. Smith credentials and track record as a prophet are too weak to even be considered valid. His program, like those of all false prophets, is dependent on stirring the emotions of people. Concrete evidence is ignored as feelings are spiritualized.
Any time someone comes up with an extra-Biblical revelation you can bet it will disagree with what the Bible says about who God is, who man is, and what God’s plan of salvation entails. Men who promote themselves as prophets can conjure-up all sorts of notions about who God is. All it takes for them to do a successful sales job is to speak with authority and enthusiasm and hope they can generate enough feelings to move people to believe their revelation.
Here’s hopin (praying) that someone reading this today will finally put their “god was once a man” notion to rest, and nail the coffin shut.
And let’s not forget what else the Bible says God is, not the least of which is described in John 4:24
“God is not a white man ” . Was’nt this the spiritual truth revealed by Mormon leaders
through a Church magazine ? Did’nt these same spiritual guides reveal that the
devil had black skin ? and we know he did’nt look like God , right ? Instead of trusting
in the guidance of these men , why not just trust God’s Word on who God is . Jesus said
to Beware of prophets who would come teaching their own reasonings and attempt to
convince people it was actually God’s truth —Matt.7:15
The first line in my last post should have read , ” ” God is not a white man ‘. But this was’nt
the spiritual truth revealed by Mormon leaders through a Church magazine. ”
The Juvenile Instructor [ 10-5-1868 ] taught that when God made man in His own image
that He made him white.
Aaron, you said, ” ….the Mormon deity is just a man who became an exalted man. ”
That sums it up rather well. To think that the Creator of the universe that we encounter
in Bible is only a common man and only one among many , is such an aberrant belief
for someone to hold that claims to be a Christian . This exalted man supposedly was produced
by another man and His wife in another heaven . Sent to earth to learn how be “worthy”
to return to His mother and father, He was baptized , gave 10% of His income to His
religious organization , earned the right to go into a Temple and learn secret words and
handshakes and promised not reveal these sacred secrets to non-believers which was
reinforced by mimicking the penalty for violating this promise by a throat slashing gesture .
Also in this Temple He was married , and after successfully meeting all the requirements
needed to return to His parents He would with His wives began a long relationship
together sexually producing millions of spirit babies , just like His parents did before Him.
This is the spiritual insight we receive from Mormon prophets and apostles as they reveal
this God we meet as Creator in the Bible ( and Book of Mormon ? ) . I guess we can either
believe their teachings or we can just let the Creator speak for Himself from His message to
us in scripture—-Isa.43:10 .
Mike R
You’re speaking my language with your latest post. We need to get the word out on this!
I can feel the temperature raising on some of our Mormon friends because the last thing they want is for this information to be made widely known and discussed. It’s the best way to inoculate folks from the rather sanitized message that the Mormon missionary’s bring.
Talking about this in as manner you have presented it equals persecution in the minds of dedicated Mormons. They would claim that we just don’t have the faith that it takes to understand and accept their version of who God is. We understand it perfectly and that’s why we don’t believe it.
The problem with Mormonism is that it takes the human model of male, female, reproduction and family and apply it to God. It makes them feel all emotionally warm and fuzzy that they have a heavenly father and mother who actually gave birth to them in the spirit world and are now cheering them on to become like they are, gods. It’s a tale fit for Greek or Roman mythology.
White God, white Wife, Mormons.
Invisible God, without parts or passion and very lonely, no invisible celestial wife, Orthodox Christians.
No passion? Very lonely? Mormon fantasy. LOL. “Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.”
The Mormon god needs a plethora of wives to aggrandize himself, so he can create more spirit babies and be more exalted than the next god in the next universe over from his. It’s the suburbs of Kolob, with each little god competing for thrones, dominions and powers over the next god. It’s the white man version of heaven, where the seed of Abel will be ‘ahead of the seed of Cain for all eternity”, as the Mormon spokesman for racism, Brigham Young declared.
God is not God from all eternity, his is the pagan image of Joseph Smith, who felt the need to self aggrandized himself as King of the World, and with it the King of Heaven over his Church. Those who bought into his self-aggrandizing fantasy, also were forced to believe him when he stated that marrying him also saved their entire families, and if not… well, you have 24 hours to decide the fate of your loved ones, so make up your mind.
No man of God acts like this, and the Chrisian God of Love, who BECAME A MAN, because he LOVED us, certainly did not. He didn’t teach it, endorse it, or put up with those who put regulations over love, petty rules over love, and self aggrandizement over love. _johnny
Helen, please defend for us Joseph Smith’s pronouncement that the Christian God is false because he is a God without “parts or passions”. Parts I can understand because the Mormon believes God has a fleshly human body, but passion? Prove the Christian’s God is not passionate?
God was so passionate to reveal Himself to us that instead of giving us (mankind) justice in the Garden, God the Son chose, before the foundation of the world (in perfect unity of agreement of the three persons of the Trinity) (Ephesians 1:3-11) to humble Himself by taking on human form in submission to God the Father to take our penalty for sin (Philippians 2:5-11).
God the Son has taken on human form for eternity and is forever the God Man Jesus Christ. This was to demonstrate His love, shown through grace and mercy.
God also has other attributes, two of which are justice and wrath. Those too will be demonstrated by the eternal punishment of those who refuse to humbly come to Jesus Christ apart from their own “religious” works for the forgiveness of sin.
I’ve been reading your posts for some time now. You are lost, confused, and deceived. Your statements deny both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, which was nothing more than Joseph’s attempt to sell a work of religious fiction that got out of hand.
1John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
This verse proves Mormons do not know God, I have pointed out more times than I can count, with exampls of how the Mormons show zero Love for us, they do not have Christs love in their hearts and they dont care about us at all. They follow their father who hates us also and can only lie and destroy.
The biggest god that Joseph Smith could conceive of was little better than himself. J.B. Phillips wrote a book titled, “Your God is Too Small”. I think he must have had the Mormon god in mind when he wrote this. Mormonism is the creation of someone with an immature mind. The best Smith could come up with for a god was a pattern of an earthly human being.
Religious entrepreneurs of Smith’s era, and there were lots of them, had an idea a minute dealing with everything from the nature of God, the nature of man, God’s plan of salvation and social order. They’d modify their religious creation as they went along. For our faithful Mormons, look at the differences between Smith’s original Book of Commandments and his later Doctrine and Covenants. He changed “revelations” wholesale without any thought to consistency. That’s one of the main features of Mormonism. It can be changed on a moments notice without any thought given to appearance.
Smith did this with his ideas about who God is. For-the-life-of-me I don’t understand how Mormons can accept this without being the least bit suspicious regarding the veracity of the revelations. For heavens sake, the guy had eight different versions of his first vision. The first was that he went out into the woods to seek assurance of the forgiveness of his sins. By the time he got through with it, he had a tale of Jesus and God the Father appearing to him. He’d just add things to his whopper to make his fish tale more fantastic.
Liv4jc , good to hear from you again my friend . Does’nt it break your heart to see
how far the Mormon people have drifted from God’s word. It seems to me that they
kept so busy with doing religious deeds that they don’t stop long enough to evaluate
their leaders’ teachings on some very crucial areas , this thread topic being one of them .
I also think fear plays a part in this also. Fear of offending God by doubting their prophet’s
teachings concerning Him . The Mormon people are being led by their spiritual guides ,
their prophets , and these men are speaking their own reasonings , not spiritual truth .
Prophets who don’t wait to hear from God but instead tell the people they have the insight
to know what God would tell them , are false prophets :
” I did not send these prophets, but they ran. I did not speak to them, but they prophesied . ”
[Jer 23:21 ]
Mormon prophets and apostles are always stressing the need to live morally, that’s great.
But can that make up for false teachings about the Creator of heaven and earth ?
What are the consequences of following the false teachings of spiritual guides ? Isa.9:16
“Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen” (1 Timothy 1:17).
We have been warned in the Bible to trust not in the arm of flesh. Were I to trust in a glorified man, would I not be doing that? A glorified man is only a creature. As a creature, it is unworthy of worship.
Mike,
We’ve recently learned on this blog that Mormons have the option of accepting or rejecting what their prophets, past and present, reveal. Given that, it would seem that Mormons don’t really have to pay much attention to what their leaders say, unless of course, they get individual confirmation that the prophet is indeed being accurate. That’s why things get a little confusing with Mormonism and the claim that they have a prophet that hears from the Mormon god.
I can see why Mormons would invoke the individual revelation clause because the Mormon prophets have such a miserable record when it comes to the changing prophetic doctrinal messages and the failed prophesies regarding future events.
Just think of it, even the revelations concerning who God is have changed. I would think that it would be pretty difficult to blow that revelation if someone was really hearing from God. Joseph Smith changed his first vision revelation eight times. This is not just a matter of filling in the details later. This is a full scale changing of what actually happened. I can’t believe the number of do-overs Mormons allow their prophets to have and they (members) never blow the whistle on this fraud.
For our misguided friend, Falcon who continues to not get it. 🙂 Are Mormons encouraged to blindly believe and follow our leaders? according to Falcon its either or. If you follow them blindly your considered a hapless fool. If you pick and choose what you want to believe, Falcon simply believes we are accepting or rejecting some things and other things we can just discard as useless and pointless sermons.
Of course there is another option, one that I have already explained, yet Falcon has twisted it to mean something I don’t even recognize, but then again I don’t have His Holy Discernment and I’m sure he has received spiritual guidance that can express Helen’s thought process better then Helen can explain it herself, ya think?
John Taylor, March 14, 1869. Journal of Discourses 13:15.
I believe it is good to investigate and prove all principles that come before me. Prove all things, hold fast that which is good, and reject that which is evil, no matter what guise it may come in. I think if we, as “Mormons,” hold principles that cannot be sustained by the Scriptures and by good sound reason and philosophy, the quicker we part with them the better, no matter who believes in them or who does not. In every principle presented to us, our first inquiry should be, “Is it true?” “Does it emanate from God?” If He is its Author it can be sustained just as much as any other truth in natural philosophy; if false it should be opposed and exposed just as much as any other error. Hence upon all such matters we wish to go back to first principles.
Falcon this scripture is for you, read it carefully 🙂
Doctrine and Covenants 50:21-22
Falcon, you bring up some very valid points concerning the reliability of Mormon
prophets and apostles to give the Mormon people trustworthy spiritual guidance .
Considering the exclusive claims that these men have advertised ,when their teaching
track record is examined it clearly points to the verdict that these leaders have not
always heard from God at all . It has been said in print that the Mormon prophet merely
relays spiritual truth from God , he is the conduit that God uses to feed His people
spiritually healthy food , so to doubt that this is the case is to doubt God . You bring
up a interesting point on those Mormons who feel that they can pick and choose what
their leaders counsel. I tend to think that they say this to non-LDS , of course they don’t
“have to ” believe anything their prophet teaches but IF they want to avoid offending
God they will receive his spiritual guidance as it is a measure of their devotion to God
Himself. I suppose that there are those Mormons who are not as committed , who are
“cultural Mormons ” but I think the ones who regularly attend church , conference , and
study Church publications are very concerned with following the teachings that come
from their leadership. The Mormon people are good people who are striving to serve God.
It breaks your heart to see them detoured from the truth of the Bible’s clear teachings on
issues affecting one’s salvation because of their submission to a man who claims to be
the “mouthpiece of God” . Jesus loves them enough to issue a warning : Beware Matt 7:15
Falcon, this personal “revelation” or conviction that you mentioned Mormons testify
to having as a way of confirming what they believe is true , is seen to many times to be only
their human reasoning whether it’s accompanied by a physical feeling or not . We’ve
seen way to many examples of this . One one hand you can’t fault anyone who has a deep
personal conviction especially as it concerns spiritual truth . But great caution has to be
exercised here . When the Bible declares from beginning to end that there is only one true
Almighty Creator God, then anyone who “testifies” that there are many Almighty Gods,
Goddesses etc, we would be on safe ground to hold to God’s Word rather than on someone’s
testimony that would differ from what God has said . Mormon prophets have not only
claimed to have received revelations on who God is that depart from the Bible, but they
have also claimed to be the authorized interpreters of the written Word and thus have gone
on to reveal interpretations that ” wrest the scriptures ” [ Alma 13:20 ] .
Living a lifestyle that is consistent with the moral standards that Jesus condones cannot make
up for believing false doctrine about who God is —-God is not a white man .
Mike,
What Mormons fail to realize is that there is something within the soul of man coupled with the reaction within the body, that can create spiritual feelings, impressions and even manifestations. This is in contrast to the spirit of man. We are body, soul and spirit. That which is from God is spirit. That’s why I think there can be a legitimate concern in modern day Christian church services where certain praise chorus’ are repeated over and over until an ambiance is created in the sanctuary that is very powerful and emotionally moving.
I’ve heard it said that God inhabits the praises of His people. Also that believers, worshipers create an atmosphere in which the Holy Spirit can move. I use to just go with it. I’m less inclined to do that these days cautious to keep my spiritual antenna up and fully engaged. The power of suggestion and group dynamics, some call it hysteria, can make folks think they are encountering legitimate spiritual experiences.
So I don’t doubt for a moment that Mormons “feel” things. I don’t doubt that they really “feel” an inner witness and think that God is speaking to them. The problem is, they don’t have a means by which to test what they are “hearing” and “feeling”. They have accepted the notion that their prophets are hearing from God. They are preset to believe it when an “inner witness” or “feeling” is the standard by which these utterances are tested, it’s a real formula for disaster.
After Jesus arose from the dead He told His disciples to search the Scriptures to see if those things about Him were true. Here He is risen from the dead standing before them and telling them to search for Him in the Scriptures.
That’s a good test for truth.
Joseph Smith mixed in enough evangelical Christian revivalism to his hybrid religion to give it the “feel” of spirituality.
As he went along he redefined God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. He came up with a brand new plan of salvation. He borrowed ceremonies from Free Masonry in order to initiate folks into a type of “secret” sect in order to gain commitment. His idea regarding the ancient Jews coming to America as the fore-runners of the Indians was a common theory of the time.
The “Celestial Kingdom” came from the work of Swendenborg.
“Swedenborg claimed to have received a new revelation from Jesus Christ through continuous heavenly visions which he experienced over a period of at least twenty-five years. In his writings, he predicted that the Lord would establish a “New Church”………… The movement was founded on the belief that God explained the spiritual meaning of the Scriptures to Swedenborg as a means of revealing the truth of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Followers believe that Swedenborg witnessed the Last Judgment in the spiritual world, along with the inauguration of the New Church.”(Wikipedia)
“Swedenborg insisted: “There are three heavens,” described as “entirely distinct from each other.” He called the highest heaven “the Celestial Kingdom,” and stated that the inhabitants of the three heavens corresponded to the “sun, moon and stars.”
By Joseph Smith’s own statements, he was familiar with Swedenborg’s writings. Smith told a convert by the name of Edward Hunter that ‘Emanuel Swedenborg had a view of the world to come, but for daily food he perished.’ In other words, Smith liked Swedenborg’s concepts of the afterlife, but criticized him for not profiting from them………If you ever want to know details about the Mormon afterlife, read Swedenborg’s book.”
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon034.htm
This is worth checking out.
Helen must not have ever heard of Marion G. Romney’s Conference address where he said:
“What we get out of general conference is a build-up of our spirits as we listen to those particular principles and practices of the gospel which the Lord inspires the present leadership of the Church to bring to our attention at the time. He knows why he inspired Brother Joseph F. Merrill to give the talk he just gave. He knows why he inspired the other brethren who have talked in this conference to say what they have said. It is our high privilege to hear, through these men, what the Lord would say if he were here. If we do not agree with what they say, it is because we are out of harmony with the Spirit of the Lord.” (Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, October 1950, p.126)
John Taylor’s “If He is its Author it can be sustained just as much as any other truth in natural philosophy… ” Doesn’t cut it in relation to the BOM and a host of other failed ‘revelations’ like Adam-god (even after 150 more years) and his words to “prove it”, are really just a smoke screen, for if you don’t “believe” what those in the “Crony club” have said, and that they are saying what “the Lord would say if he were here”, then of course there is something wrong with YOU, (For there is SO much evidence that the BOM is true, heck, Joe Smith said so, didn’t he?) and so YOU are obviously “out of harmony” with the “Spirit of the Lord”._johnny
About the last thing Mormons want a prospective convert to do is research the life of Joseph Smith, the BoM, the changing face of Mormon doctrine based on changes in revelation, the connection between Mormonism and Free Masonry and of course folk magic.
Knowledge is power. Mormons want to work on a prospects’ emotions and call it personal revelation ignoring knowledge/information/evidence. Once a person is convinced that his/her emotions are a confirmation of Godly communication, they are to stop questioning and follow their leaders.
This is true except for Helen who practices a unique form of Mormonism. I’m wondering if Helen would reject the King Follett discourse and revert to the God revealed in the BoM? If a person has a witness and testimony of the BoM, they need to disregard everything that is not consistent with the view of the nature of God revealed there.
Joseph Smith had a bunch of people jump ship when he highjacked the Book of Commandments and changed it and a bunch were excommunicated when they wouldn’t accept the three levels of heaven that Smith stole from Swendenborg.
Here’s the deal. Those Mormons who love God and want a close personal relationship with Him can have it. When they reject Mormonism with its false god, they can embrace the God who is revealed in His Holy Word the Bible. They can come to know Jesus not as some valiant older brother, the spirit offspring of a mother goddess and father god but as the great I AM, God incarnate.
There is no salvation in Mormonism. There is only a false god with a false promise of personal deification.
Helen, i understand your way of defending yourself, since i have family who defend the LDS Church at all costs, even to the point of affirming that the ends justify the means when it comes to the leadership omitting sensitive information about Church history.
It´s interesting how you cherry picked that quote regardless of the hundreds of talks that are clear about how people should blindly follow the “prophet” and that challenging him means challenging God, – or when you criticize church leaders you´re subjecting yourself to the deceiving power of the Devil who will blind you until you apostatize. See http://alturl.com/kpc24
With that in mind i ask you, how many teachings of the leaders of your church have you rejected for being contrary to scriptures? Do you actually check them against the scriptures to see if they are in agreement with one another? And if you did find wrong teachings in general conference, would you speak out against them?
I´m pretty sure i already know what you´re going to say, but i thought i should ask you anyways…
From the October, 2010 General Conference talk given by Claudio R. M. Costa of the Seventies we read:
“The Lord promised us that if we believe in the holy prophets, we should have eternal life (see D&C 20:26). In the sixth article of faith, we declare that we believe in prophets. To believe means to have faith and confidence in them and to follow and do what the prophets ask us to do.”
Ok, let´s read D&C 20:26 to figure out what he means by that – see, i don´t want to jump to the conclusion that he´s mocking Jesus and the entire New Testament denying that it is belief in Jesus that saves us:
“Not only those who believed after he came in the meridian of time, in the flesh, but all those from the beginning, even as many as were before he came, who believed in the words of the holy prophets, who spake as they were inspired by the gift of the Holy Ghost, who truly testified of him in all things, should have eternal life,”
I mean, how can you take those men seriously when they themselves do a miserable job of handling their own scriptures!!!!! If you read that passage in its full context D&C is talking about Jesus and how through belief in Him we should have Eternal Life(how very Christian of Joseph Smith), and you will be saved through believing not in prophets but in their words as inspired by the Holy Ghost and testified of Jesus… Amazing… so, again, why do mormons get all upset when they are called a cult?
In conclusion, yes, The “seventy” Claudio Costa is mocking the Jesus here, distorting his own scriptures to make it look like people will be saved through believing in men regardless of what they say.
Hello F-melo
Glad to see your alive. You back now or just dropping in and leaving again? Is everything ok with you? Rick
I´ve quoted this before but every time i read about God being a man the words of Josephus, in his preface to the Antiquities of the Jews, come to mind. Talking about Moses and his ministry, he said:
“(…)for as to other legislators, they followed fables, and by their discourses transferred the most reproachful of human vices unto the gods, and afforded wicked men the most plausible excuses for their crimes; but as for our legislator, when he had once demonstrated that God was possessed of perfect virtue(…)”
As i read that i´m reminded of how Joseph Smith had to turn God into a man to be able to exalt himself and to play upon human pride to manipulate them into whatever direction would mostly benefit him. Also of how he blamed God for his polygamous practices and how Brigham Young and others taught that God had a sexual relation with Mary to conceive Jesus, among many, many other things. Isnt´that following fables and transferring to God the most reproachful of human vices?
How can you believe those men hear from God? But always when i question that the answer i get is something like “they are dead prophets, their words were for their generation, our prophet is Thomas Monson now and he hasn´t said or done anything bad…” What a way to close your eyes to the truth and ignore that the current leaders hold an authority that comes from those wicked men from the past. That not to mention the irony of believing that you have the “fullness” of the Gospel at the same time you believe in continuous revelation… those are two contradictory concepts. If you believe in continuous revelation that means you´ll never have the fullness of anything since not all will be revealed ever.
Hello, Rick, how are you?
Yes, i´m alive. Things have been very hectic lately, not much time for anything, just work and study. I´m catching up with the posts here since i´ve caught a break. 😀
I don´t plan on leaving again though, i´m getting better at managing my time. I´ve missed very much being here, i always learn a lot and get a lot of great insights from all of you. It´s also interesting to read what the mormons write, it scares me a bit because it´s usually the exact same answers/arguments i hear here in Brazil! It reminds me of the Mormon Church´s power over its members. So, i´ll to stick around to maybe help some and to grow some more in my faith!
F-melo , good to hear from you again !
I was reflecting on the statement by John Taylor that Helen cited . His counsel is to
” investigate any principle that come before us ” . That sounds great. I would however
ask Mr Taylor how could a proper investigation take place with respect to the rituals
and covenants of the Temple ceremony when LDS are also counseled not to talk about
what goes on in there with others . Mr Taylor also counseled : ” reject that which is evil
no matter what guise it may come in .” One truth I always hope the Mormon people would
grasp is that some false prophets can be men who live and teach a moral lifestyle and use
scriptures from the New Testament that speak to this . But what happens when these men
reveal doctrines that depart from what the Bible teaches about God ? What about when
these men reveal “requirements” necessary to gain eternal life that scripture do not teach ?
Will a false prophet constantly stress the importance of living a moral lifestyle to the extent
that his followers just accept the other doctrines that he teaches without stopping to
question them ? Mr Taylor goes on to say that LDS should reject principles that are not
” sustained by the scriptures”. That would be a great start to being true to God , however
I’m puzzled why this religious leader would state that given the fact that Mormon leaders
like him have incorporated doctrines into their religion that are not found in the scriptures
(Standard Works). Examples are available . Jesus said , Beware –Matt 7:15
fmelo,
I echo the sentiments of those who have missed your contributions here. It’s always a treat to have exMormons write out of their experiences in Mormonism. For those of us who haven’t had that Mormon thinking process, we can’t empathize and have the insights you exes do.
And think of it. You are regarded as an apostate by Mormons and about the lowest form of life for leaving the Mormon sect. That’s a badge that I’d wear with honor. The idea that you exMormons were offended by someone or fell into serious sin is negated by the fact that you found new life in Jesus Christ and are walking by the Spirit.
Like the apostle Paul said, everything he had “gained” in his former life he counted as rubbish in comparison to the higher calling he found in Christ Jesus Our Lord. To know Jesus as God incarnate who gave His life by the shedding of His blood so that we could attain to eternal life through faith in Him is indeed Good News!
f_melo, “It´s interesting how you cherry picked that quote regardless of the hundreds of talks that are clear about how people should blindly follow the “prophet”.
Melo, I would be surprised if you could find one prophet who stated we should blindly follow, that is the most absurd ex-mormon remark to this day I have ever witnessed. Care to reference even one?
Take that one back to your family and try it on them!
John, what do you find strange about this:
It is our high privilege to hear, through these men, what the Lord would say if he were here. If we do not agree with what they say, it is because we are out of harmony with the Spirit of the Lord.” (Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, October 1950, p.126)
You did not reference what the topic was that they spoke on. Lets say they talked about tithing, it is a principle we teach and part of the Standard works and Plan of Salvation, if one was to disagree that is there God given right and agency to reject it. What he is saying is if one does disagree with a principle then they are most likely not fully committed to living it, or they find it a false teaching.
Of course the disclaimer you fail to note: as we listen to those particular principles and practices of the gospel which the Lord inspires the present leadership of the Church to bring to our attention
General Conference is a time for remembering certain doctrine that might be particularly important at this time and Christ spiritual urging that the Leaders make note to the members of a timely and important principle and practice.
Mike, great to be back!
You make a very good point! That´s how mormons try to defend their blind following of the prophets, and you know why they have to do that? To pay lip service to those who hold scripture to be sacred and authoritative. Not because of the scriptures´ authority as the Word of God though, but because indirectly sustaining the authority of scriptures as manipulated by them to mean that they are living apostles and prophets strengthens their authority before the membership. So they sound pious enough to calm the minds of some who take the scriptures seriously at the same time they give the warm fuzzy feelings to the others who love to sing “we thank thee o god for a prophet”.
Also that´s what makes them different, what makes them better than all the other “corrupt” denominations that have fallen into darkness and don´t believe that we should be practicing a deformed version of Old Testament law mixed with a little bit of some of the aspects of the New Testament Church and call it restored Christianity.
Falcon, thank you for those words! It´s great to be back and to contribute with my own personal experiences.
I was thinking about those very words of Paul during the entire day as we discussed today how belief in Jesus saves us because of how we aren´t capable of keeping God´s law.
The way mormons get around that though is to say that they also believe that – that´s through the Grace of Jesus that they are saved, and you´re not required to keep all the commandments but just to do your best. And every time you point LDS scriptures that state the contrary they go around it saying something to the effect that the scripture didn´t really mean what it said… I´m very annoyed by that, it´s like they gave up dealing with scriptures and are seeking the answers for their troubles through their own reasoning, and just blindly trusting the idea that what matters is what the current leadership says it matters, and even though they don´t keep even that and i often hear something like “i should be doing this”, “i should be doing that”, that doesn´t seem enough to bring them to repentance and the fear of God. The whole system fails spiritually and i can see that although they believe the fundamental doctrines and testify of the blessings of having a living prophet they actually don´t care about it at all, and it has no objective influence in their personal lives other than the weekly church/callings routine. No wonder, most of their prophet´s words is nothing more than self-help, self aggrandizing, motivational talk, it makes you feel good at the moment but it has no power to change one´s life and it disappears from people´s memory as soon as they leave the building.
Helen said: “Melo, I would be surprised if you could find one prophet who stated we should blindly follow, that is the most absurd ex-mormon remark to this day I have ever witnessed. Care to reference even one?”
Seriously? Are you sure you want to play those kinds of games? I have actually referenced it in that very post with that link to one recent General Conference Talk… Do you want me to quote pieces of it to you that confirm what i said? Ok, here we go:
“First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything”
Second fundamental: “The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works”
Oops, there goes John Taylor´s argument. If the prophet is more vital than the standard works we shouldn´t check the prophet´s words against the scriptures but vice versa.
Your own quote:“It is our high privilege to hear, through these men, what the Lord would say if he were here. If we do not agree with what they say, it is because we are out of harmony with the Spirit of the Lord.”
Continuing…
Continuing…
Helen, while no prophet has been stupid enough to say it in those words, they do require you to blindly trust all they have to say, for the simple fact they are not accountable to anyone. There´s nobody to correct them, or to question them since they´ve made crystal clear that to question them means to question god himself! I mean, from one side of your mouth you say you should check if their words are according to scripture while from the other side you say that to do that is to not be in alignment with God! What is this? Are you joking with us? I bet you´re.
Could actually answer the questions i asked you, instead of running away trying to deviate attention from the real issues? Especially this one: “And if you did find wrong teachings in general conference, would you speak out against them?”
I´ve never seen anyone in the church pointing out the gross errors you leaders commit in their handling of God´s Word, and you´l probably answer that it´s because they don´t commit such errors. Then you want to argue that you don´t blindly trust them. Not even Christ demanded blind trust, He gave signs, specially the resurrection, to prove He was who He said He was even though they should already have believed it because of the Scriptures they had before them at that time. Trust the true God´s Words and you won´t go wrong.
Ok, for a moment I was taken aback, now that you are willing to admit that you can’t follow up on your claim of one prophet ever stating we must follow them blindly maybe next time you could tone it down and be a little more factual and less sensationalist.
When I see the wild claims such as this and the ridiculing and mocking of Mormonsim here on MC, I feel a sense of regret that intelligent men and women can’t keep too a more common ground of civil debate and not the hyperbole rhetoric.
Helen said: “What he is saying is if one does disagree with a principle then they are most likely not fully committed to living it, or they find it a false teaching.(So is it ok to say it is false and walk away and be “exalted” anyways?)
Of course the disclaimer you fail to note: as we listen to those particular principles and practices of the gospel which the Lord inspires the present leadership of the Church to bring to our attention. (Does that mean you´re not to expect new revelation? that´s not what we learn from church history though – and does that mean that the inspiration comes in what to remind people of and do you need “prophets” for that? Why not just open the Scriptures and remember all of it since all of it is important?)
General Conference is a time for remembering certain doctrine that might be particularly important at this time and Christ spiritual urging that the Leaders make note to the members of a timely and important principle and practice.(Really? Who said this? Could you give us an authoritative reference that confirms this?)
What a great way to dodge the real issues!
Going back to the main subject in question it is with sadness that i´m reminded of a particular testimony meeting when a black lady got up to bear her testimony and she shared with the congregation how she had had a dream in which she saw herself in the Celestial Kingdom and she described when she looked herself in a mirror and saw that her features had been changed and she had become white. She then testified of how the church was true and that everyone would become white after being exalted.
Sick, isn´t it? That´s one of the fruits of mormonism.
fmelo,
Welcome to the “World of Helen”! What you pointed out in your posts is exactly what most of the Christian posters have been pointing out to her since she joined the discussion here. It leaves us wondering if this is just a Mormon game she’s playing or if Mormonism has seriously damaged her ability to think and process information in a normal fashion. There is something truly odd going on. But there is such a thing as a diluting spirit that leaves people spiritual deaf and blind.
But God has brought Helen here so that we can reveal the Gospel of Jesus Christ to her.
God is a white man ? So how did we learn of this “truth” ? We learned of it form a prophet .
Joseph Smith claimed to have a personal interview with God Almighty and claimed that God
had picked him to reveal truths long hidden from man . This prophet proceeded to teach
those that followed him much new light , new insight on the scriptures that came by way of
revelation from the Holy Ghost . Near the end of his life Joseph felt the time was right to
disclose some even deeper truths that he received from God , this he did at Conference in
1844 when he proclaimed that God had not always been God . This disclosure brought out
more fully his belief that God was but a man who Himself had a father and mother . In the
last year of his life this prophet privately mentored and taught deep truths of God to his
inner circle of leaders . After his death these men faithfully taught these doctrines to the
Mormon people as they determined the time was right for them to learn more about God.
These General authorities claimed to built on what their mentor had taught them , a line upon
line revealment. So we can read what these men publically taught the people , they defined
and defended these new doctrines as being part of a restoring work that God had called them
to do . Some examples of this latter-day knowledge concerning God being a man , a white man ,
are that He does what every other man has to do , and in fact it’s taught He did do in order to
become God . [cont]
F-Melo.
I’m not sure how many posts you read in the last month or so and just never replied to, but let me fill you in here on Helen. She for the most part will ask questions of us, but will never reply to them. I figure for every ten questions we ask here, she might answer one. Two if we are really lucky.
So dont get your hopes up to high and expect any answers from here, and know she has a really short memory, so feel free to point out if she says something and then later changes her story. I believe it is called being a hyprocite, but she believes it is called, I forgot what I said.
[cont].
God Himself was begotten through sexual relations by His father and mother God .
God needs wives to become God. Sex is the power of God . God received His wives
in secret Temple rites . God’s glory depends on the number of children He sires .
God sexually produced Jehovah /Jesus , the Holy Ghost , Satan and millions of
other children in heaven . Since it is claimed that ” the power of procreation ” was
” one of the chief means ” of man’s becoming Almighty Gods, it was also taught that
this is one of the ” chief means” how God became God . God being a white man had to
learn much , He had to study and prove Himself , marriage was just one requirement
He was obliged to fulfill . It has been said by Mormon leaders that LDS cannot worship
acceptably unto the Lord unless they know His attributes . This is the service , the guidance,
that Mormon prophets and apostles provide to them. Fourth generation Mormon ,Thelma
Geer understood the above teachings , ” and other doctrines contrived to glorify and exalt
LDS men to godhood. Particularly did I know of it’s heartaches and frustrations it’s seeking
to serve a God who was once a man , and the futile aspirations of becoming a god ‘ as God now
is now ‘ ……Today I praise God that after 31 years of serving and loving Joseph Smith and
Mormonism , I found Jesus dear to my heart ….. I repented of my sin of neglecting Jesus and
taking Him for granted, I looked to Jesus….and became a new creature in Christ .”
It is amazing that the reference to the two natures of Jesus refers to the council of Chalcedon. Which took place 400 years after the resurrection of christ-425 A.D. This was adopted as orthodox doctrine at that time. If I understand things correctly then If you taught something differently it would be considered heretical. So the people in power-church and Kings along with all other minor officials-forced this upon people, After all they were the only ones with an education. You must also remember the ones in power write the history and sometimes they get it wrong.
I believe Helen is referring to what one of the apostle said. That is that we have the responsibility to ponder what is said at conference an make sure of what is said. I don’t have the journal of discourses so I am not sure when or who said it.
Clyde, here is a little bit of what I’m trying to point out but seems to be bouncing off the top of our Orthodox Christians heads, 🙂
Harold B. Lee
It is not to be thought that every word spoken by the General Authorities is inspired, or that they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost in everything they write. I don’t care what his position is, if he writes something or speaks something that goes beyond anything that you can find in the standard church works, unless that one be the prophet, seer, and revelator – please note that one exception – you may immediately say, “Well, that is his own idea.” And if he says something that contradicts what is found in the standard church works, you may know by that some token that it is false, regardless of the position of the man who says it. We can know or have the assurance that they are speaking under inspiration if we so live that we can have a witness that what they are speaking is the word of the Lord. There is only one safety, and that is that we shall live to have the witness to know. President Brigham Young said something to the effect that “the greatest fear I have is that the people of this Church will accept what we say as the will of the Lord without first praying about it and getting the witness within their own hearts that what we say is the word of the Lord.” (Harold B. Lee, Stand Ye In Holy Places, pp. 162-3, “The Prophet, Seer, and Revelator,” Address delivered to seminary and institute teachers, BYU, July 8, 1964)
Mike R. and your sexual relations 101 taking points book. What can a TBM say, but wow. Been a member for 50 plus years, never ran across such meaningless sensationalist bull doo doo.
Can you quote any of this from our Doctrine? Not asking for opinions of our leaders, but give me the Standard works version as I wait in great anticipation of leaning something new. 🙂
Helen,
LOL! You ask the impossible! Most of Mormonism isn’t in your standard works. That’s what we have been telling you for months now! “Not asking for opinions from our leaders” is such an inane comment. You know darn well it was Brigham Young who taught that God had sex with Mary and it’s in the Journal of Discourses that those in Brigham’s day considered scripture. I still would love for you to tell those Mormons who believed Brigham Young’s words for 50+ years, that he was lying and they were deceived. Do you realize that by stating “opinions of our leaders” you are admitting they got it all wrong? Doesn’t that make them false prophets? If you as a just a member can decided for yourself what is from God and what is not, why do you need a man (prophet) at all?
f_melo,
Good to have you back. I’m so heart sick over this poor Black woman that you told us about. How sad is it that this poor woman ( and other people of Color) have to go through life in Mormonism believing that they did something wrong in the pre existence or that they just weren’t valiant and so they have to bear the fruits of that here on earth. If they could just come to the true and living Christ of the Bible, they could find their true worth in God’s eyes. God obviously loves variety. Racism is a man made thing. It’s not just about Blacks either. There have been many different people even those with white skin (think Jews) that have been thought of as a lower race. Racism is just ugly. The fact that it is still being pushed through Mormon doctrines in this day and age are appalling to me.
Helen quote Harold and said
What is really sad and mormons dont care and find excuse around is this. The 4 standard works contrdict each other, and worse Yet some, Like the pearl of great price even crontrdicts it’s self. So you keep saying, look to the standard works, yet they dont agree. Then you keep quoting leaders that say, or Find a leader saying
But yet I can show you where your prophets and presdients say, We are the only people to speak for the Lord, and we due not need to say, Thus saoth the Lord. So Helen like it or not this is a huge problem because, these statments contrdict what Harold said. Both people cannot be right. And the prophets did say, we must listen to them over and above all others or our salvation can be effected by that. Like it or not, you have a problem because no matter who you quote, we can counter it with a quote that shows to LDS contrdicting one another. That is a serious problem.
Helen is beginning to sound like she is arguing for a closed cannon. After all the arguments that the Church needs to be led by a living prophet, now it turns out you just need a closed cannon of Scripture and can reject anything the living prophet says. What has the living prophet revealed in the last 40 years anyway? – other than to reverse the longstanding ban on blacks in the priesthood (which Brigham Young prophetically said would not happen, or maybe that was just his false prophet opinion). Joseph Smith was playing fast and loose with his prophetic tongue – now the prophets all seem to be tongue-tied, the Mormon god just doesn’t have much to say these days. And even if he did say something, doesn’t mean it would matter at all in 25 years.
Helen,
I go by Johnny, NOT John. Please make note of this. Your reply makes no sense. Romney’ s quoted remarks were given BEFORE he went to his topic of address. They were an introduction that stood on their own. Here are all the comments that preceded the one I quoted:
“I earnestly invite each of you, my brethren and sisters, to say a prayer that while I stand before you, you may get something out of what I say that will do you good, and that what I say will inspire what you get. I rely wholly upon the Spirit of the Lord to direct me on this occasion.
TEACHINGS NOT NEW
During this conference I have listened intently to everything that has been said. What has been said has thrilled me, although I have not heard anything much that is new. During the past weeks I have read many conference addresses given from this pulpit during the last twenty-one years, and I have not found much in those addresses that was new, but I thrilled with every one of them.
Truth, sufficient to guide us through our lives and back into the very presence of God, was revealed through the Prophet Joseph Smith during the early years of this last dispensation. The Lord counseled the brethren in that day that they were to pretend to no new revelation. They were to speak and teach what had been revealed through the Prophet Joseph Smith. In the main, that is what we are still doing.
I know, of course, that there have been new revelations given since the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith. I know that every man who has stood at the head of the Church from then until now has received revelations from the Lord.
But not many new doctrines have been revealed since the Prophet’s time. (page 126) Then Romney says:
“What we get out of general conference is a build-up of our spirits as we listen to those particular principles and practices of the gospel which the Lord inspires the present leadership of the Church to bring to our attention at the time.”
How does this support your premise that,
“General Conference is a time for remembering certain doctrine that might be particularly important at this time and Christ spiritual urging that the Leaders make note to the members of a timely and important principle and practice.”
It doesn’t. Romney says, “I know of course that there have been NEW REVELATIONS given since the days of … Joseph Smith.” Then, and read carefully:
I know that every man who has stood at the head of the Church from then until now has received revelations from the Lord.
Though “in the main” there were no ‘new revelations’, when there were, they were to be taken as “what the Lord would say if he were here. If we do not agree with what they say, it is because we are out of harmony with the Spirit of the Lord.”
Brigham Young taught from the stand that Adam was God. (among other things) He declared it a “revelation”. Romney states that if you do not agree with what he said, it is because you are out of harmony with the Spirit of the Lord.”
Your explanation that,
“What he is saying is if one does disagree with a principle then they are most likely not fully committed to living it, or they find it a false teaching.”