“…if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you…” The Bible calls God’s grace a gift; but Mormonism claims it must be merited: “…it is only after a person has so performed a lifetime of works and faithfulness—only after he has come to deny himself of all ungodliness and every worldly lust—that the grace of God, that spiritual increment of power, is efficacious” (Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon 1:295. Also, compare 2 Ne 25:23 and Eph 2:8-10).
“Keep my commandments continually,…except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.” The Bible tells us we are all under sin, unrighteous and unworthy of God’s favor. The apostle Paul even lamented that he desired to do what is right, but was unable to carry it out (Rom 3:9-20; 7:18-19). What Mormonism says God demands is impossible to achieve (see 1 Ne 3:7).
“…go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return…” True repentance and forgiveness, according to Mormonism, is only achieved when we completely and forever abandon sin. As shown above (#5, #4), this is impossible–hopeless. But the Bible offers great hope: “He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities….so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us” (Ps 103:10-12).
“And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true;…he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.” This is unbiblical. The Bible never tells us to pray to know whether something is true; rather, we are to prayerfully search the revealed Word of God, asking for wisdom and guidance. Truth is brought to light by testing truth claims against God’s Word (1 Jn 4:1, 6; 2 Tim 3:16-17; 1 Thess 5:21. See Jer 17:9, Prov 14:12, 28:26).
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with thy soul, and with all thy might.” This confession of true faith, known as the Shema, confirms the uniqueness of the Lord (Jehovah) and asserts that He alone is God (Elohim). It is a call for God’s people to stay true to Him.
The words from the Shema are echoed in Deuteronomy 13 when God directly addressed the problem of false prophets. God told the Israelites they were not to be deceived by miraculous signs or fulfilled prophecy; these things were not the standard by which to ultimately judge the dreamer of dreams. Instead, a foundational question was (and is) to be asked: Who is the God the prophet proclaims? Is He the one true God the people have always known? Or a different God? (“We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea…” see #6)
Deuteronomy 13 is a test—not only to be applied to those claiming to speak for God, but also to determine the faithfulness of those who claim to follow God. “You shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul” (Deut 13:3).
I am not a Mormon—because I have committed to be faithful to the Lord my God, and to love Him with all my heart and with all my soul.
Numbers 4 and 5 remind me of this passage found in John 15:5 :
Mormons are under the illusion that they actually have the power to keep God´s commandments and that God is satisfied with them. God is only at peace with us through Jesus, not through your own works, it doesn´t matter if you helped an old lady cross the street or if you´ve saved the lives of millions of people.
Number 3 is one of the strongest scare tactics i´ve seen growing up in the Church. Everytime you repeated a sin, it was like all the work you did in the past to be forgiven of past sins was lost. All that suffering and grieving went to waste and all of a sudden you see yourself under the wrath of God again. At the same time they would tell you to not be discouraged because it was Satan´s strategy to make you discouraged so that you wouldn´t repent. It was Satan´s strategy alright, but the church was playing the part of Satan teaching you that evil doctrine. How can you not be discouraged and frightened? Some of leaders even said to us that if you repeated the sin so many times after God forgave you all those times he would simply stop forgiving you and you´d be done for and delivered to Satan. Imagine that in my mind as a child, how scared and stressed out that got me. Those doctrine are highly damaging and disturbing. They also teach a different, cruel God.
Two things I have noticed on my years here.
1. When ever topics like this two part topic come up showing problems with mormonism compared to the Bible, Mormons are strangly silent, No replies or if their are any, they dont deal with the topic at hand, They are replies to other issues.
But the real issues are avoided.
2. Mormons keep claiming, we christians are wrong and dont have a clue. Yet what better chance than to take these issues and show us where and how we are wrong, how we dont understand and correct us, that never happens.
yet when a topic like, JS shot and killed 3 people comes up, o-boy watch out, the mormon come out of the woodwork and they call their friends in for added help. Why is it, you so quick to defend JS and claim whatever you want about him, yet when it comes to the BoM and it’s teachings and doctrines contrdicting what the Bible says, or other prophets, you just tell us we are clueless and need Milk before meat, yet you wont even tell us why were are wrong and share the gospel with us?
The reasons you dont are many, but here are two I offer up.
1. You have no answers, and it gets old trying to make stuff up. You can only get so creative before it becomes impossible due to all the changes and evidence against mormonism.
2. The Bible says
Bondage and legalism at it`s worst! “It was for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Gal. 5:1“
I highly doubt that any LDS could truthfully say that they have never repeated a sin, therefore they are constantly under a load of guilt.
canuck
Re: 2 through 5 – so very depressing! To set oneself up for failure, when victory is available, is so difficult to grasp! Jeremiah 17:9 says, The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Rom. 5:8-10 says, 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Our victory has been won by Jesus freely giving His life! And Jesus did not “leave us comfortless” after His death, resurrection, and ascension into Heaven. Jesus said in John 14:16-18, 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. The Holy Spirit “teaches us all things, “guides us into all truth, and gives us gifts that make the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives apparent to all – John 14:26; John 16:13; Galatians 5:22.
Why depend on works when I can “come boldly unto the throne of grace, that [I] may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” Hebrews 4:16
Dependence on God is the necessary state of the Christian. As Jesus said, in John 15:5, “without me you can do nothing.”
This is just a wonderful list you’ve shared with us, Sharon.
Have I done enough to deserve grace? If grace is deserved, it is not grace. Also striking is #4. If anyone were ever to do this, Jesus Christ died a meaningless death (Galatians 2:21). Sins, once removed, now returning (#3)? Now there is a recipe for despair.
And #1: the god revealed by Joseph Smith is a highly evolved man. One of many. Dwelling in another solar system. Married, possibly many times. Worshiped by Smith has his god. This is idolatry, with a science-fiction tinge.
May the LDS people someday trade a religion based upon fear and guilt, for a life-giving relationship with God, based upon his love and grace.
Hello everyone
I’m new here. I’m not going to give you my life to story, but I’m a fairly recent convert to Mormonism taken from the Assemblies of God. I didn’t really want to convert, but a careful firsthand analysis of the early Christian literature made me feel like I didn’t have a whole lot of choice. But that’s for later.
I’ve been arguing/debating/dialogueing/whatever with Rick for a while now. Rick referred me to the first post in this series and I decided I would write some comments, but the server was having a bit of trouble. Is it to late for me to write comments on the other thread? It looks like the conversation there is pretty far gone from the original topic. I never know the etiquette in these situations.
Sharon in your reason #2 you claim that the Bible doesn’t direct us to pray to work out the truth about its claims, but the Bible verses you provide don’t justify your claim. They state once 1) that the Bible is true and useful for knowing truth, twice 2) that we should test things to see if they are true and three times 3) that mans mind and heart are not good things to trust in.
1) Gives the Christian useful information about what we can do to know correct theology, but that’s entirely different from claiming to give the unbeliever a reason to beleive, unless you think that the Bibles own claim to be true proves that it is (which is clearly circular) (2) Should be obviously true, and in no way contradicts the Mormon claim and 3) simply doesn’t enter into it. If God is God then he is able to answer a prayer for knowledge in a way that gives us certainty despite our faulty reasoning, emotions and confirmation bias. An essential part of the claim that God has, via his spirit, proven something true is that he has done so in a manner that does not leave room for the mind and heart to misread it.
So what have we got? The belief that we should test all things, your idea that asking God to supernaturally prove his word to us is immoral, and no replacement on your part for knowing which religion is true. What proof of Evangelical Christianity would you give to a seeker? What argument would you give that the Bible is the complete, unedited word of God?
Also, your #1 strikes me as really poorly thought out.
Firstly because this is a verse that apologists for Judaism will use against Trinitarian Christians such as yourself. The Lord, Israels God, is ONE LORD, not three Lords or three persons in one Lord. I’m not saying that the Shema necessarily disproves your view, just that it isn’t exactly trinitarian in outlook.
“Instead, a foundational question was (and is) to be asked: Who is the God the prophet proclaims?”
Which is also why Jews don’t take Christian claims seriously. Joseph Smith never told his followers to worship him. According to the Bible, Jesus did, even though he is at minimum somewhat distinguished from God the father. I say this with some confidence, as in John 20:17 he refers to the Father as Both His father and His God. I put it to you all that when one being describes another as his God, they are not both the exact same thing. So when you try to convert Jews and they find out you want them to worship a being who reffers to God the Father as his God, I don’t think we can blame them for finding this in condradiction to the Shema.
Secondly If you read the Shema carefully
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with thy soul, and with all thy might”
It simply doesn’t say anything about whether or not there are other Lords(יְהוָ) or Gods (םיהלא ). It tells us that the Lord our (Israels) God/םיהלא is one Lord, which tells the Jews they are not to worship other םיהלא, but that in no way precludes there being any other ones. Strictly speaking, it doesn’t even get in the way of believing there are other םיהלא worthy of worship. The only verses in the Hebrew Bible that support Monotheism are a few odd verses in Deutero-Isaiah. Most of the Hebrew bible supports the view that there exist multiple םיהלא who are inferior to יְהוָ. Not Mormonism by any means, but not the Monotheism you are claiming either. Consider Exodus 12:12 “And against all the םיהלא of Egypt I will execute judgment”, Psalm 86:8 “Among the םיהלא there is none like unto thee, O Lord” and Psalm 96:4 “For the Lord … is to be feared above all םיהלא.”
It’s funny, you read Joseph Smith’s writings and it’s obvious that he was trying to sound “Biblical” and it’s obvious that he’s really bad at trying to sound Biblical. Anyone who has a grounding in the Word of God can see the cheap imitation knock off of Smith’s. If he were making purses, no one would mistake his for a Gucci bag! His shirts would fall apart after one washing. The fake Rolex watch wouldn’t keep time.
But Mormons, for some reason, are content with this cheap imitation of a religion.
The apostle Paul wrote that even when we were sinners Christ died for us. He says that for a good man somebody might dare to die, but for a sinner? Who would die for a sinner? God would in the person of Jesus Christ. It’s difficult for me to understand why Mormons aren’t content with the free gift of salvation that God offers us sinners through faith in His Son Jesus Christ.
I think I know why. It’s human pride disguised as the desire to live a sinless, moral life. Mormons seem to think it’s God’s expectation that we never sin. Well actually it is but God knows that this is an impossible task. Our nature won’t allow us to be sinless. So God declares us righteous despite our sin nature. It’s the only way it’s going to work for us in terms of obtaining eternal life.
I have yet to hear an evangelist or a preacher say, “Come to Jesus in faith and sin as much as you want!” I can’t figure out why Mormons believe that this is what Christianity teaches. Actually I don’t think they believe that but it’s fun for them to make the charge and in some way justify their own works oriented sanctification quest.
Falcon
I’m not really sure what I am supposed to make of your post. If you try to give me a well thought out reason why I am wrong, then I will take you seriously. If you just announce to me that I am obviously wrong, and then assert Evangelical propositions to me… well of course that’s not going to even begin to make me change my mind. You might as well just type ‘Evangelicalism is true, Evangelicalism is true’ over and over for all the affect your having on me.
That said, your first sentence got my attention, in that I don’t actually disagree with your claim that Mormonism isn’t biblical. As far as the Protestant 66 book Bible goes, Mormonism definitely isn’t. We think that we existed with God before the foundation of the world, that the world was made out by God out of some preexisting stuff (although the waters in Genesis 1:2 fit rather well), that the early church was expected by God to apostatize, baptism or the dead, and a three layered heaven.
So yes, we are thoroughly not obeying your Bible. This doesn’t matter even slightly to me, as that is not a claim Mormonism makes. If you reassemble the Bible as the theologians in the early church had it, and tell us we are not obeying that, then you have got a case against Mormonism. But even a cursory glance at their works shows us that our Bible isn’t theirs, so just stating that we are not obeying yours doesn’t amount to much.
Also, I don;t take your claim seriously because its hypocrasy- Jews say the same thing about your(our) treatment of the Old testament Jews for Judaism
Also
“I have yet to hear an evangelist or a preacher say, “Come to Jesus in faith and sin as much as you want!” I can’t figure out why Mormons believe that this is what Christianity teaches. ”
Not Christianity, just Protestantism, and not including Lordship Salvation theology.
The reason why we think that is because that’s EXACTLY what Luther said:
” If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.” Let Your Sins Be Strong: A Letter From Luther to Melanchthon Letter no. 99, 1 August 1521, From the Wartburg (Segment) Translated by Erika Bullmann Flores from: _Dr. Martin Luther’s Saemmtliche Schriften_ Dr, Johannes Georg Walch, Ed. (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.), Vol. 15,cols. 2585-2590.
Mick Said:
Mick, the reason those verses were cite was quite simple. To show that there´s something missing in there, which is to pray to know if it is true… That means that the Word of God doesn´t teach that, it´s not inspired by God.
Well, isn´t that why the different authors of the Bible(remember it´s not one book written by one man), tell us to test all things? And please, of course it “Gives the Christian useful information about what we can do to know correct theology”, why would you bother to take it seriously if you didn´t already believe in Christ? Read the Bible again and you´ll find out what is there that gives you reasons to believe it and what is there for those who already believe it.
Mick said
Mick, says who? And if God is God he isn´t able to contradict Himself, therefore he won´t reveal you “truths” through feelings no matter how clear they are. And that according to His own Word, because, see, we should let God tell us about Himself, shouldn´t we? 2 Timothy 2:13 ” If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself”
Well Mick,
I guess I don’t know what to make of you either since I’ve never heard of you nor was I addressing you.
So I guess you’re the intellectual Mormon who shows up here occasionally, fires a few shots and then heads on down the road.
Here’s the deal. The intellectual Mormon wants to engage in all sorts of deep discussions but the problem I have with it is at the end of the day you’re still a person who believes in a man with a magic rock in his hat. So we could do this “I’m smarter than you” dance but I’m not really going to provide you with your religious entertainment.
I’d suggest you not read my posts because you’re really not in my Mormon market niche anyway. I’m looking for that Mormon who has had enough and is looking for a way out. You’re not that Mormon.
Mick said
Yes, what´s wrong with the belief that we should test all things? The idea that God can supernaturally prove His Word isn´t immoral, just isn´t what you think it is. Do you know how God supernaturally proved His Word? By raising Jesus from the dead. By creating the nation of Israel, and many other miracles we see attested to in the Bible. Also, why do you have to ask God which religion is true? Gee, what about studying them first? Did you study Baha´ism? How do you know it isn´t true? You´re really lucky you decided to pray about the right one! That´s one in one! Besides, who told you to pray to know if the LDS church is true? Wasn´t that the LDS church itself? Why did you assume it to be the right thing to do? Isn´t that circular?
To become a mormon you first have to believe it without any prayer for you to do what they tell you, and by the time you pray you already believed in it anyways! And people think that´s God´s supernatural way of answering prayers.
Hello Michael,
I want to address two things.
1. You menton Luther, Why mention him? Who is he to me, or any Christian? He is a man and if what he says does not agree with the Bible, he is wrong. Remember, Jesus spoke about False prophets and false teachers. I’m not saying Luther was/is a false prophet, I’m just saying he cannot speak for us christians. We look to what Jesus and the apostles said and taught, not men from a few hundred years ago.
Show me things like that from the Bible, then we will have a problem.
2. Your Prophets have taught they are the Mouth piece for your church, they said things that are false and shown to be false. You must look at what they said, If they taught Adam God, then you cannot say, well I dont agree with it. It was taught as scripture and believed by many LDS to be scripture. If you reject that, then you reject your prophets. You can say, Well he’s dead, I no longer need to listen to him, sadly many Living LDS to this day and just a few years ago believed things BY taught and quoted him. If they can quote him, then they must believe him.
Your prophets said lots of false things, you cannot simply pick and choose what you want to believe, either it’s true or it’s false. If it’s true, then they taught some serious crazy stuff, If it’s false, then every LDS prophet after them in some way or another, is believing things based upon lies and deception. That is a serious problem. But then you are also throwing the Word of God under the bus. Why claim it as a standard work if you reject it?
“Mick, the reason those verses were cite was quite simple. To show that there´s something missing in there, which is to pray to know if it is true… That means that the Word of God doesn´t teach that, it´s not inspired by God.”
I assumed that the claim was that from the 6 quotations her statement about prayer not being a good method of requesting knowledge of which religion is true from God could be derived. If, as you say, that her claim is merely some kind of ‘Look, I have selected 6 bible verses and no verse telling us to pray for guidance is in them, so it follows that we are not meant to pray for guidance’ then I hardly think I need to explain why that isn’t a compelling argument. I stand by my assumption, as I think Sharon is smarter than that.
“remember it´s not one book written by one man”
Oh, and how well I know it. I don’t mind that the Bible was written by 50+ authors, I just wish they agreed more often. I’m sure God knew what he was doing and all, but we shouldn’t have to deal with outright logical contractions like 2 Chronicles 22:2 vs 2 Kings 8:26 and such
“Read the Bible again and you´ll find out what is there that gives you reasons to believe it”
Well, Paul says that God is obviously real and the fact of creation testifies to his existence. To bad there are more than a billion Atheists and agnostics in the world who really, genuinely doubt Gods existence. So that claim is doesn’t really go far.
you’ll find claims of supernatural prophecy. Problem is, that doesn’t show up Islam or Mormonism or anybody who thinks it was corrupted. I don’t see much else.
In my previous post I linked to verses. Its only after posting I realized they were ESV, and ESV have decided to take some liberties with the to plug gaping flaws, so what I was claiming doesn’t show. If anyone wants to look at those verses, go to just about any other translation, or go and compare them all, and you will see what I saw saying.
Well Mick,
“I guess I don’t know what to make of you either since I’ve never heard of you nor was I addressing you.”
I do apologize. I saw your post after mine, it looked like some kind of attempt to dispute with me, so I jumped at it. I guess I’ll be more careful in the future.
“ So we could do this “I’m smarter than you” dance but I’m not really going to provide you with your religious entertainment.”
I didn’t come here for entertainment, or to take some shots at anybody. I came here because when I left, my pastor told me to my face that I’m going to hell, but when I asked my church for reasons to change my mind all I got where “you can’t be a Mormon, they have magic ceremonies where they wash their underwear” or “you can’t be a Mormon, they secretly worship angles”. Those of you who are familiar in any way with Mormonism know why those claims are junk. I came here because I feel like I owe somebody (not really sure who, just somebody) the chance to explain to me why I am wrong, without making up random lies about my religion.
“at the end of the day you’re still a person who believes in a man with a magic rock in his hat”
If you were an atheist or a deist saying that, I would feel embarrassed. But you’re not, your A Biblical Christian who, if your serious about that claim, believes that Balaam talked to his donkey and Jonah was lived in a whales belly for three days and you probably believe the world was made in seven days about 6000 year ago. By comparison, the idea of God using a polished rock to flash symbols at someone is… still not sensible
.. but you can hardly be a good judge.
Rick.
I mentioned martin Luther because falcon had said that he had never heard a preacher say “Come to Jesus in faith and sin as much as you want!”. Well, that’s exactly what the founding father of the reformation did say. The reason why you should care what he said is because anybody who isn’t a protestant can see that your Faith Alone idea was one you got from him. He made it, or at least he was the first one to expound it in any serious way, and if he hadn’t made it popular you can guarantee the vast majority of Protestantism wouldn’t believe it today.
You point out that the LDS Prophets said some Seriously crazy stuff that I now disagree with. And I give you the same answer I did in my previous email to you. I don’t care for much the same reason it didn’t bother me as an evangelical that the Old Testament prophets were clearly wrong about many things: If God wants to give different people groups different commands at different times, and if he deals out truth as the people can handle it and is happy to let them have false assumption until then… well, that’s what I, as an honest Evangelical reading the Old Testament, concluded I had to Believe. I don’t have any harder time making sense of that now. It simply doesn’t follow that if one Prophet was wrong in some way, everybody Prophet who followed him was wrong also.
Hello Mick,
You said
You know from our private emails, I dont hold back and tell it like I see it. So here is my thoughts on what you said. You are going to hell and follow a false prophet and have a different Gospel. Unlike many others that you meet at your church or else where, The vast majority of us know the Bible and know Mormonism.
The Problem I find is this, No matter what we show LDS, they do as you are doing, you throw the Bible under the Bus. You say, Well big deal if JS used a rock, Balam spoke to his donkey.
You try the tit for tat bit. But here is the problem, sometimes enough information is not given for what ever reason, Maybe it is a word or reply limit that make it tough. But according to how JS put his face in a hat with a stone, the BoM should be without Error, since it is said and taught by your church, one his partner wrote down the Letter JS said, if his Buddy wrote it down correctly, then it should have disappeared from the golden plates.
That means their should be zero error, But guess what, it was showed already that we had a King Mosiah changed to a king Benjamin. Now you guys claim the Bible is corrput. The problem is, why bother saying the bible is part of the standard works if you simply reject it as flawed? Then if you claim Evil men crept in and did this, then why cannot that be (Cont)
(cont)
A possible reason for the 4,000 plus changes to the BoM? Ask any Mormon, they throw the Bible under the bus every chance they get, yet when we show problems for the BoM, they believe they have valid reasons why that is not an issue. So you said
We are not making up lies about your religion, we tell it like we see it and provide facts and evidence from what your prophets and leaders have said. But then you guys reject what your leaders have said and tell us you really dont need to believe them since they are dead, or it’s their mere opinion. It seems no matter what we say, you out right reject it. Yet things the LDS church teach and say, do not line up with the Bible and these people are being expoused as the false prophets they really are. Yet you dont want to see that and then simply dismiss everything your leaders said and throw the Bible under the bus at every turn.
Then you tell us were wrong, but cannot show us why or how. So we are serious about what we do, we do care since eternity apart from Christ in the lake of fire is a very long time.
Mike said
I still stand by what I said, I dont care what Luther said, He was wrong and the Bible teaches otherwise. But since you seem to feel the Bible does not teach “Faith alone” That tells me you never really read the Bible.
Faith alone imply’s NO WORKS, Would that be correct to say? I will reply more after you state if Faith alone imply’s or means Just that, No works, just simple faith. Also would you please state to everyone here the issue you stated to me about the issue with the prophets you have so others can responed. If you feel that would be a watse of a post I have your email still, I can post that section only and let everyone see. I really believe it is not the problem you believe it is, I believe it is more a matter of you dont understand the Bible and that is where the issue comes from.
rick,
You made the point earlier today that Mormons will say that what we report about Mormonism is false and yet they never provide any information that the points we make are indeed false. The problem for Mormons is that what we report comes directly from Mormon sources or can easily be substantiated from the historical record.
Really all we have to do is provide the basic facts about Mormonism to those wanting to know more about the religion and they’ll pretty much be inoculated to the presentations of the Mormon missionaries. We really don’t have to make anything up since the truth about Mormonism is all that’s needed to alert the uninformed what the religion is all about. For example:
Mormons contend that there are millions, perhaps billions of gods.
That these gods were once sinful men who by obeying and following a prescribed path provided by the LDS church became gods.
That Mormon gods have goddess wives the number equal to those wives they had in their mortal life or granted to them by their Mormon god up line.
The Mormon god and his goddess wives procreate spirit children who eventually are born to human parents and have an opportunity to become Mormons and, following the program, become gods also.
That the Mormon god lives on or near a planet/star called Kolob.
That the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith had a magic rock with which he claimed he could find buried treasure by seeing into the ground.
The prophet Smith used this rock to translate some golden plates he said he found in the ground by placing his magic rock in his hat and burying his face in the hat.
This magic rock was placed on the alter during the dedication of the Mormon temple in Manti.
I could go on but that’s usually enough.
The big Problem I have- The reason why I read a whole lot of Evangelical Book arguing against Mormonism before and after my conversion and they didn’t seem to do much to me- is because I have done something you haven’t. When I was an Evangelical, I exposed Evangelicalism to Atheisms claims. I saw that a lot of smart Christians were becoming atheists, and thought that I had better see if there was any truth to their claims. After quit a few years, I realized my faith had withstood literally the best atheist claims I could ever expected to find, and I could live happily in the knowledge I had come to a reasonable conclusion.
Because of that, when I saw all these arguments against Mormonism coming from Evangelicals I saw something I wasn’t expecting to see. I saw Hypocrisy by the truckload.
The Problems I have with my prophets crazy things are pittance compared to the Problems you have with yours. Why? Because even if BY thought the things he is saying were scripture and would last forever, I don’t have to. I have been given a definition of what scripture is (from a prophet, agreed the brethren, sustained by the majority) and all of the crazy statements either didn’t make it past (Adam God) or Were neatly closed down (racism, Polygamy, Order of Enoch). So when I ask my church what is Modern-day Scripture, I end up with a consistent set devoid of contradictions.
You, on the other hand, claim to believe the Bible. All of it. Contradictions and all. All the Crazy statements from Old Testament Prophets that are still Scripture that you claim to believe. Urn up to any Synagogue and ask what they believe, and where it disagrees with you ask them to justify it with Scripture, (cont)
(cont), and you will quickly see my point. Acts 7:6 v Exodus 12:40, 1 Corinthians 10:8 v Numbers 25:9, Isaiah 45:22-23 v Matthew 5:34, Psalm 30:5 v Revelation 14;11, Exodus 15:3 v Matthew 5:9, 1 Kings 8:13 v Acts 7:48
Mick,
Are you really going to stand by that quote of Luther’s, and say it represents the balance of his teachings on sin? Really? The letter was a fragment. We don’t know the entire context of it, and can you support that with other of his writings? Nope. And to take that, and to project it onto Protestants as a whole is grossly disingenuous. Reconcile that, with this statement by Luther:
“For it is impossible for him who believes in Christ, as a just Savior, not to love and to do good. If, however, he does not do good nor love, it is sure that faith is not present. Therefore man knows by the fruits what kind of a tree it is, and it is proved by love and deed whether Christ is in him and he believes in Christ. As St. Peter says in 2 Pet. 1, 10: “Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure; for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble,” that is, if you bravely practice good works you will be sure and cannot doubt that God has called and chosen you.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 1:40]
“What Augustine says is indeed true: He who has created you without yourself will not save you without yourself. Works are necessary for salvation, but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life. For the sake of hypocrites it should be said that good works are necessary for salvation. Works must be done, but it does not follow from this that works save… Works save externally, that is, they testify that we are just and that in a man there is that faith which saves him internally, as Paul says: ‘With the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the
mouth confession is made unto salvation’.” [What Luther Says 3: 1509]
“True faith is not idle. We can, therefore, ascertain and recognize those who have true faith from the effect or from what follows.” [LW 34:183]
“But here we must take to heart the good example of Christ in that he appeals to his works, even as the tree is known by its fruits, thus rebuking all false teachers, the pope, bishops, priests and monks to appear in the future and shield themselves by his name, saying, “We are Christians;” just as the pope is boasting that he is the vicar of Christ. Here we have it stated that where the works are absent, there is also no Christ. Christ is a living, active and fruit- bearing character who does not rest, but works unceasingly wherever he is. Therefore, those bishops and teachers that are not doing the works of Christ, we should avoid and consider as wolves.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 1:93]
I find your base characterizations of Protestants as a whole, based on a quote from a Reformer, who did not claim to be a direct spokesman for God (as Mormon “prophets” do), whose body of work refutes your premise – to be quite distasteful, and thoroughly dishonest. _johnny
This is the problem with Mormonism:
“Because even if BY thought the things he is saying were scripture and would last forever, I don’t have to. I have been given a definition of what scripture is (from a prophet, agreed the brethren, sustained by the majority) and all of the crazy statements either didn’t make it past (Adam God) or Were neatly closed down (racism, Polygamy, Order of Enoch). So when I ask my church what is Modern-day Scripture, I end up with a consistent set devoid of contradictions.”
You can’t pin them down on anything. Even their standard works have been tampered with, by changing verses, deleting and adding material after the fact, voting things in and out by convenience or social pressure, with the great definition of Modern-day scripture, whatever is voted on by the majority. This is consistency?
Ever hear of the Lectures on Faith? Voted as binding by the Church? That teaches that God was a Spirit (no body) that Christ was the Father in flesh, and that the Holy “Ghost” was the MIND of God? This is a
far cry from later canonized scripture in the Mormon Church. In fact, it is a flat out contradiction. The cool thing to Mormons today, who wish to make these things go away, is that they can just refuse to believe them, and then when contradictions in doctrine come along, simply drop them out of the canon, and then vote to sustain the new changed cannon. The Current Administration rules.
They seem to forget the ‘prophets’ MAKE the scriptures, and that the Church simply VOTES on what to accept. This does not even touch the principle of WHERE the ‘prophets’ CLAIMED those revelations came from. Like Brigham Young who said Adam-god was a direct revelation to him from God.
They simply say it doesn’t matter, because it’s not “binding”, so their “prophets” can teach any kind of falsehood they feel like, and contradict themselves to their hearts content. And still claim they are the ‘mouthpiece of God’. Strange, strange consistency.
At least Christians stand up for the Bible, AS IS. Mormons have to constantly change what they believe to ‘fit’ the current scheme of what the Church wants to believe in at any certain time. And then deceptively change the very standard works that they claim were direct revelations to make it all work.
How is this ‘better’ than what the Bible teaches? It’s not. It is a system of self aggrandizement, where he who has the votes makes the rules. This is not God revealing his will, it is men saying whatever they want and the Church voting on what they THINK might be ‘scripture’, because if they don’t like it, they don’t have to believe it. _johnny
Grindael
I’m not really as anywhere near as familiar with Luther as I would like to be. I am well aware that the quote isn’t in line with common protestant beliefs. I wan’t trying to claim that all, or even a minority, of modern protestants agree with Luther’s quote, but rather I was trying to find an explanation of why Mormons (although really a lot of Christians who hold to salvation by faith and works say similar things) might end up misconceiving protestant beliefs like that. When I read falcons text carefully, I realized that to meet his claim “I have yet to hear an evangelist or a preacher say, “Come to Jesus in faith and sin as much as you want!”” I only really needed one clear claim from one evangelist or preacher saying that, whether or not it was the view he normally held. So when I saw I had a quote from Martin Luther explicitly stating that, I figured I would use it.
I see now I didn’t d0 a very clear job writing what I wanted to say, although I do stand by the claims I made.
I think that falcon can no longer make statements like the one he did, and I hope he understands that when someone viewing faith alone churches as ones that are comparability a bit slower to stamp down on sin, it is not entirely unwarranted. Even if it wasn’t the view usual for Luther, you won’t find any comparative statement from any Catholic or Mormon theologian or leader.
From first hand experience, while most churches stamp down on major sins hard, I think that faith alone churches tend to be a bit more lax with small things, especially when compared to Mormonism. There is a level of “Where all sinners, we can’t hope not to be, so we probably shouldn’t expect to be able to stamp this small stuff out, so its a bit futile to try” Where the Mormons will go “No, we will find a way to fix this”. This is all just my firsthand experience, so YMMV
Your quotes of Luther struck me as really odd. they are not the Luther I am used to. I mean, neither was mine, but yours were odd in the opposite way. “Works are necessary for salvation, but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life” Now I don’t care how many conditions you place on the end, walk into any faith alone Protestant church and announce works are necessary for salvation and you will see instant disagreement. your quotes make him sound like he is only halfway down the faith alone path normally attributed to him. Do you really think of these quotes as his normative viewpoint? Can that really be described as faith alone when you need to have “works must be done”?
Mick
Mick,
You misunderstand Luther – the quote you used and also the quotes I posted. First, as I said before, the quote you used is not the whole letter, and many scholars have said that Luther was complex. I will say one thing further about that original quote. I don’t view it in the light that you do, although I can see why some would. Luther elaborates elsewhere:
“Now let us better see and hear what the Lord says to this. There stands the publican and humbles himself, says nothing of fasting, nothing of his good works, nor of anything. Yet the Lord says that his sins are not so great as the sins of the hypocrite; even in spite of anyone now exalting himself above the lowest sinner. If I exalt myself a finger’s breadth above my neighbor, or the vilest sinner, then am I cast down. For the publican during his whole life did not do as many and as great sins as this Pharisee does here when he says: I thank thee God that, I am not as other men are; and lies enough to burst all heaven. From him you hear no word like: “God, be thou merciful to me a sinner!” God’s mercy, sympathy, patience and love are all forgotten by him, while God is nothing but pure mercy, and he who does not know this, thinks there is no God, as in Psalm 14:1: “The fool hath Said in his heart, There is no God.” So it is with an unbeliever who does not know himself. Therefore I say one thing more, if he had committed the vilest sin and deflowered virgins, it would not have been as bad as when he says: “I thank thee God, that I am not as the rest
of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.” Yes, yes, do I hear you have no need of God and despise his goodness, mercy, love and everything that God is? Behold, these are thy sins. Hence the public gross sins that break out are insignificant; but unbelief which is in the heart and we cannot see, this is the real sin in which monks and priests strut forth; these lost and corrupt ones are sunk head and ears in this sin, and pretend to be entirely free from it.” (Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:344-345.)
Luther’s hyperbole, “Sin boldly”, was written to a man who was probably very concerned, perhaps overly so, with his sins. But did Luther condone sin? Did he encourage the man to sin? Not at all, as evidenced by the quote above. He viewed sin as a part of our fallen nature though, as did Paul, who basically said the same thing:
“We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to
do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. (Romans 7)
Again, Luther:
“No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins?
This to me, is extreme exaggeration on Luther’s part. Thanks be to God, who delivers us from sin, because we “delight in God’s law”, but we are plagued by the “sin at work” within us.
Again Paul:
“Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? (Romans 8)
Again Luther:
Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.” Again, hyperbole. This man was probably worried about minor things, and Luther was telling him, “don’t sweat it”,
and Paul bears this out in his letter to the Romans. We are weak because of the flesh, but God is merciful, and we confess our sins, and he forgives them. And we pray!
Again Paul:
“In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.” (Romans 8)
This is the most passed over Chapter by those who do not understand Grace. Again, we don’t know the exact reasons for the tone of Luther’s letter, but I can see what he was getting at. The rest of his teachings bear out that he NEVER believed that one could sin with impunity. It’s anathema to those regenerated by the Spirit, but the FLESH IS WEAK, our “sinful nature”.
Luther’s further teachings on works, is not at all inconsistent with those who understand grace/works. Mormons believe in forced regulations, Christians believe that works flow out of faith and love, as the ‘fruit’ of our regeneration. We cannot “earn” grace, and NOTHING we do, will ever make a difference, but it does show others, that we are born of the Spirit, and have that love of God that drives us to do good things. It is really very simple.
The smiley face above should be an “8”. _johnny
Mick,
This quote:
Falcon:
“I can’t figure out why Mormons believe that this is what Christianity teaches. ”
Your answer:
Not Christianity, just Protestantism, and not including Lordship Salvation theology.
Contradicts your explanation:
“I am well aware that the quote isn’t in line with common protestant beliefs. I wan’t trying to claim that all, or even a minority, of modern protestants agree with Luther’s quote…”
I am happy you clarified, because it was very gauche, to put it mildly. As for Falcon’s comment that brought on your impolite remarks, read carefully:
“I have yet to hear an evangelist or a preacher say, “Come to Jesus in faith and sin as much as you want!”
I don’t think an obscure, 500 year old quote by Martin Luther disqualifies Falcon’s statement. He was speaking of Preacher’s and evangelist’s that he had heard. It is like taking this statement from Brigham Young,
“Moses said to Israel, I am a god to you. Joseph said to us, I am a god to you. This was true and upon the same principles, I am a god to this people and so is any man who is appointed to lead Israel or the Kingdom of God. If the people reject him, they reject the one who sent him.” (Woodruff Journals, Jan. 26, 1860)
And then saying that Young and Smith claimed to be Gods, and were to be worshiped. (Which I’ve seen spun that way.) It takes reading the rest of what Young wrote, to get his context. Context is everything. _johnny
grindael,
Great job! summarizing some of Luther’s theology focusing on God’s grace and mercy and the proper role of works in a Christian’s life.
Mick,
You should read more Luther.
I once heard a Lutheran pastor say in a study class:
1) No one is saved by good works
2) No one is saved without good works
This is essentially a short summary of the Luther’s view on good works – which I believe to be a proper understanding of Biblical truth. Good works have NOTHING to do with salvation, and yet anyone who is saved will do good works. What did the thief on the cross do? He testified of Jesus. We are not saving ourselves, God has done that for us in the Cross. To Luther’s point, how much sin can be forgiven? A lot – and we had better know that because we are all big sinners – every single one of us broken people have lied, fornicated, committed adultery, misused the name of God, worshipped false idols, dishonored our parents, failed to gladly hear God’s Word, coveted our neighbors house, etc. etc. etc. All those sins are covered in Jesus blood – His free forgiveness given for broken damned people. Focus on the mercy God has given us in Jesus and good works will follow (but works DON’T HAVE ANYTHING to do with saving us from sin and death). We live in daily repentance trusting the mercy of God.
Also, I found it refreshing that you admitted that Mormonism is not Biblical. I am convinced the Bible is trustworthy, and the BOM is not – for many many reasons. It is great that we can both agree that the Mormon religion is not Biblical.
grindael and all……………
My friend Andy Watson has some interesting observations about Luther which I’ll fold into my post here.
It’s obvious that our Mormons friend doesn’t know anything about Luther. Luther was crazy sensitive and obsessive about sin in his life. This is why he spent hours in the confessional each day and then wrestled with his sins in private in his room at the monastery. The last thing Luther would be telling anyone is to go and sin.
Luther was using “hyperbole” to make his point.
Remember when Jesus said folks should cut off their hands and pluck out their eyes if they caused them to sin? Luther wants people to know that no matter what sins they have committed or will commit, Christ’s atonement supersedes and washes away sin. His forgiveness overcomes anything the sinner brings to the altar in offense.
Luther was not telling people to live a life of licentiousness or that they should sin with impunity. Luther’s point basically was that we can’t out sin God’s desire and ability to forgive us. So great is God’s mercy is the point Luther was making. Anyone making a claim other than this when speaking about Luther, knows little about Luther’s personal story or is familiar with his writings.
Mormons need to look at the LDS program of forgiveness of sins and see where that places them rather than scrutinizing the biblical doctrine of justification and forgiveness of sins. An elementary evaluation of the subject reveals that the Mormon is in dire straits with their program. The atonement of Christ in Mormonism is sub-standard and cannot atone for all sins. Obtaining forgiveness is a system of works required of the Mormon.
Mick writes:
“I think that falcon can no longer make statements like the one he did, and I hope he understands that when someone viewing faith alone churches as ones that are comparability a bit slower to stamp down on sin, it is not entirely unwarranted. Even if it wasn’t the view usual for Luther, you won’t find any comparative statement from any Catholic or Mormon theologian or leader.”
Quite frankly I don’t know what you’re talking about in the above statement. Of course I can say that I’ve never heard a preacher say, “Accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and you are free to sin.” I haven’t heard it because no one teaches it, that I know of. I can’t account for what some Christians do or believe in their private lives. I just know that I haven’t been exposed to a form of Christianity that teaches people are free to sin because they have faith in Jesus.
This is just a Mormon red herring. In fact, I’d say it’s bearing false witness. The whole point of such a claim is to hold Christians and Christianity in disdain and try to draw a contrast by saying, “Look how moral and up right we Mormons are.” It’s all very Pharisitical.
The motivation for Mormons to lead a moral life is so that they might become gods.
The motivation for Christians to lead a moral life is to bring glory to the One and only God who loved us enough to give his life for our sins. Our lives are living sacrifices offered to God in thanks for His mercy towards us.
So someone who is born again by the Spirit of God, not someone who is a mere pew sitter, knows and understands what God’s love and forgiveness is about.
As important as our discussion is here contrasting the Christian doctrines of grace, faith, salvation and sin with that of Mormonism, a more important doctrine that upon all others hinge is the doctrine of the nature of God. Quite frankly we can get lost in a discussion of these other doctrines even when, as Christians, our goal is to clearly delineate what Christianity teaches.
But the entire discussion of these doctrines is ancillary to the doctrine of the nature of God.
Mormons worship one of many glorified men. This is not the God revealed in the Bible. This isn’t even the God written about in the BoM. The Mormon god is a pagan god; an invention of a false prophet who’s claim to fame prior to becoming a prophet was that he could located buried treasure by looking into the ground with a magic rock. Now is this a guy someone would want to depend on to tell them who God is? Let’s see………… the Biblical prophets or the man with the magic rock? Who could best tell us who God is?
So it’s a pretty easy choice when someone actually goes through the process of evaluating the qualifications, personal history and “revelations” of anyone claiming to be a prophet. It would take an ignorant fool to disregard what the Bible says about who God is in favor of a self-appointed prophet whose prior occupation was as a confidence man bilking the gullible into parting with their money as he marched them around in the moon light armed with shovels seeking buried treasure.
The whole point of the OT was the revelation of God. He told the Jews to separate themselves from their idol worshiping neighbors and to follow Him. He was the great I AM, the One and only God.
Great posts made by all! As I was reading through all of this, my mind kept going back to the things I was taught growing up in the LDS church. Things that are now said to never have been taught or the many things that I was taught that are flat out lies such as the way Joseph and Hyrum were killed. I now know that Joseph Smith had a gun and actually shot people, that Joseph Smith is the one who started polygamy and had practiced it for more than a decade before and had at least 33 wives and that one third of those were already married to other men. I could go on and on about what I was taught and how that is different today. Falcon is right, the most important thing is who God is. Mormonism teaches in the BoM the Christian view of God. No matter how the apologists or modern day thinking Mormons try to spin that, it’s in there. I would encourage all Mormons to read the 1830 edition of the BoM and see the changes, for example, “…behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the Mother of God.” 1Nephi 11:18 1830 edition) changed to “….behold the virgin which thou seest is the Mother of the Son of God.” and “…behold the Lamb of God, yea even the Eternal Father!” (1 Nephi 11:21 1830 edition) changed to “…behold the Lamb of God, yea even the Son of the Eternal Father!” and this one that blows my mind! “….that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior of the World.” (1 Nephi 14:40 1830 edition) changed to “…that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father and
the Savior of the world.” How do Mormons explain this? There are almost 4,000 changes to the BoM. The very book that Joseph Smith said was the most correct book on earth. Why the changes then? The teaching on God has been changed from the Christian view to the first vision view, even though the first vision itself has 9 different versions! Talk about contradictions! As a new Christian, I’m not really interested in men’s opinions. I’m interested in what the Bible tells me. What does Christ himself say? I feel bad for Mormon converts because they are new to Mormonism and they haven’t been through the years of teaching, only to be told that those things were never taught. I know they were, no matter who says differently. I was taught that when the prophet speaks the thinking has been done for me. I was never taught or even told about the weird doctrines of past leaders such as Adam/God or blood atonement and why would I be? At the time there was no internet and no way for me to get my hands on a copy of the Journal of Discourses. That’s why the church was able to teach whatever they wanted and we all just believed it. I think the internet is a huge thorn in the LDS church’s side. I still think that Thomas Monson could clear all of this up if he just had a little courage. If he believes that he is truly God’s mouthpiece on earth, why isn’t he fulfilling his calling and shouting LDS truth out to the world? Why is he leaving his members to fight the battle and then when they do, the disclaimer of them not being the “official” word of the church thrown in there?
Mike, You said before and I quoted you saying this,
Then I went onto say something and asked you a question. I am still waiting for an answer.
Here is what I said and asked, please reply.
But since you seem to feel the Bible does not teach “Faith alone” That tells me you never really read the Bible.
Faith alone imply’s NO WORKS, Would that be correct to say? I will reply more after you state if Faith alone imply’s or means Just that, No works, just simple faith. Also would you please state to everyone here the issue you stated to me about the issue with the prophets you have so others can responed. If you feel that would be a watse of a post I have your email still, I can post that section only and let everyone see. I really believe it is not the problem you believe it is, I believe it is more a matter of you dont understand the Bible and that is where the issue comes from.
Kate,
Rank and file Mormons and the prospects to the religion are told a very compelling story about Joseph Smith. This lad goes out into the woods and wouldn’t you know it, not only does Jesus appear to him but so does God the Father. Subsequent to this an angel appears to him and the boy prophet Smith is led to a set of golden plates that tells the story of an ancient civilization on the American continent who were the descendants of some Jews from Israel. What a marvelous story. What a marvelous lad.
The problem is the story isn’t true. A little fact checking and the whole Joseph Smith story and the urban legends told about his life turn out to not be as portrayed. So Mormons can go a couple of different ways when they finally get the facts. They can double, down grit their teeth and affirm their testimony in the prophet Smith and his BoM or they can feel indignant over the fraud that has been perpetrated on them on jettison the entire Mormon program.
Some times denying reality is an effective psychological mechanism to avoid dealing with the pain of confronting a sordid truth. We see this in dysfunctional abusive homes where family members blame the victim rather than the perpetrator of the abuse.
Here’s the problem with Mormonism. Not only do the facts about Smith’s life not add up to how he is portrayed by Mormons, but his religion is 180 degrees out of phase with historical Christianity. So how is this explained? There’s something wrong with Christianity and the Bible. Naive Mormons are taught a whole list of mantras which they repeat concerning this.
So why not go to some original source materials and check it all out?
falcon,
I have the second half of my post in mod jail, not sure what I said that is holding it up. The problem I had at first, and the problem I see with the Mormons around me is that to look at something not “church approved” is a big no no. I’ve said here before that for the first year of investigating, I refused to look at anything that wasn’t church approved. I went to lds.org and was able to find the Journal of Discourses. I went back a year or so ago and you can’t see them all like you could before. So how are those Mormons supposed to study the history and doctrines of Mormonism if they don’t dare look at anything? I see this as a huge problem. There are Mormons who have studied it all and come to the conclusion that God must have had a purpose for it and the prophet will never lead them astray. In my own family, no one would be interested in studying any of this. They just follow blindly and it’s so frustrating!
Mick,
I’m just curious how you came to be converted to Mormonism. Did you have the missionaries stop by? If so, were they open about who they believe God is? Did they tell you that God was once a man like we are now? Did they tell you that Mormon men are gods in embryo and that that is the purpose of this life, to learn to become a god?? Did they tell you that when you become a god you will have many spirit wives who will bear spirit children for you to populate your own world? Did they lay the doctrines of Mormonism out so you could make a well informed decision?
Kate,
I have often landed in moderation jail. It’s a computer thing.
I find it amazing that you and the other exMormons who post here had the tenacity to keep looking despite the fear and restrictions imposed on you by the Mormon machine. It’s pretty obvious why they don’t want people poking around. I would guess that if someone is frustrated with the hypocrisy they see within the Mormon system and they’re tired of the cultural grind of the religion, finding out the things that reveal the truth about Mormonism its history and prophet, is like tossing a match on some gasoline soaked dried brush. I’ve had experience with this. WOOOISH… Toss in an old tire and things really get exciting. You don’t want to be too close to the pile when the flame ignites. It’s intense, furious and hot. Singed eyebrows anyone?
The truth can be like that. I’m guessing there’s a lot of green twigs in the Mormon church and no amount of the flame of truth will ignite them. Your family has no curiosity because they are content. Why would they want to disrupt their lives? Look at what it has cost you. I know a guy and his wife who live in my part of the country and when they left the LDS church their super duper die-for-you friends would have nothing to do with them any more. HOWEVER some were like Nicodemus coming to Jesus at night.
You have this little candle burning out there in the darkness and the darkness won’t overcome it. It will serve as a beacon to draw many to the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Hay, that almost sounded like a word of knowledge. Time will tell! Test everything!
Dear Mick,
Welcome to this forum. It is always nice to have new people visit.
I see in your introduction that you once attended Assemblies of God, and now attend LDS services.
It appears you believe that if an individual believes they have eternal life, they will go and sin as much as they want. Have I stated this accurately? Of did I misunderstand?
If this is what you believe, then perhaps you can help me better understand. For instance, let’s say that you believed you have eternal life. What, Mick, would you do?
Mick, welcome . Your statement concerning , what you call, ” faith alone churches ”
was a caricature that simply is not called for . If I would have said something similar about
Mormonism it could invite the “anti” word from Mormons . As far as faith alone churches
being , as you say, “a bit more lax with small things “( sins? ) as compared to Mormonism ,
this is probably true but then again what we don’t need is a church claiming to be the
“restored” church that Jesus started acting more like Pharisee’s . Churches that have the
one man at the top type of authoritative arrangement usually end up majoring on the minors ,
like having a cup of tea becoming evil enough to keep you out of God’s presence . Please
remember what you as a Mormon see as sins can quite possibly be not sins at all . I think it’s
wise that where scripture speaks we speak , and where scripture is silent we should be also .
But there is a modern day prophet that can clear things up , right ? You mentioned that you
have been given the definition of what scripture is by a prophet and voted on by those who
follow him,this prevents contradictions , confusion . But not only has there been vacillating
by Mormon leaders on what is ” gospel truth” and “requirements” towards eternal life, but
at any moment these men can change a significant teaching without a vote by members. In
1990 this was done with several key parts of the Temple ceremony .