Thank you for taking the time to document exactly what it is Mormons believe verses the Bible. I am married to a Mormon. I am a Christian and stand firm by the tenets of the Faith exactly as you have listed them. What seems clear to me is like talking to someone from a foreign country. As you know they think we came from Heaven. He recently asked me where I came from and I was not able to give him a solid biblical answer. What do you suggest?
Hi Millie,
Thank you for your kind and encouraging words for the work we do here at Mormonism Research Ministry. I’m so glad you have found it helpful.
I’ll try to address your question. The Bible tells us that we were created by God for His sovereign purpose. God creates our physical bodies, and He creates our spirits as well.
Psalm 139:13-16 talks about God forming our “inward parts,” knitting our bodies together in our mother’s womb. Here we learn that God knew us–knew who He would create us, individually, to be, knew our birth dates and death dates — before He had yet made us.
Zechariah 12:1 tells us that God “formed the spirit of man within him.” That is, God creates the spirit and places it in the physical body that He has already created. (See 1 Corinthians 15:46 that says the natural [in this context we could say physical] precedes the spiritual.)
Isaiah 42:5 says that God created the heavens and the earth, and gives breath and life to the people who inhabit it.
Romans 4:17 says that God is the giver of life and “calls into existence the things that do not exist.” (See also Romans 11:36, Hebrews 11:3, Colossians 1:16 and Acts 17:24-25 which all reiterate that all things are created by God and He gives life and breath to mankind.)
The problem many Latter-day Saints have in understanding these biblical teachings is that they start with the premise that God did not/could not create the spirit of man. Joseph Smith taught, “The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is coequal with God himself…God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all…The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself.” (King Follett Discourse, Journal of Discourses 6:6-7)
But the Bible teaches (and Christianity affirms) that God and mankind are not the same sort of beings. God is Creator, eternally self-existent, in need of nothing (Acts 17: 24-25, Psalm 90:2, John 1:1-5); man is created by God and helpless without Him (Psalm 100:3, Colossians 1:17). God is the source of all life; man is dependent on God for the life he has. Until God creates us, we do not exist anywhere (except in the mind of God, who knows all things).
So, the biblical answer to “Where did we come from?” is this: we came from God, the source of all life, who created us, body and spirit. As David so beautifully put it, “You formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.” (Psalm 139:13-14)
I hope this will help. For greater understanding of the way Latter-day Saints defend the LDS doctrine of the preexistence and argue against the Christian position, you might find this article on the MRM website helpful:
http://www.mrm.org/topics/rebuttals-rejoinders/mormonism-201/pre-existence-wyatt
For questions on the Mormon use of biblical proof-texts, check out the sections in the above article titled “Biblical Considerations” and “Additional Biblical Evidence.”
Thanks again for your email, Millie. Please let me know if you have any questions or if there is anything more I can help you with. May the Lord shower His tender mercies upon you and your husband.
Leaning on Jesus,
Sharon
Sharon, I appreciate your response to Millie, the scriptural answers to her husband’s false
doctrine and the respectful and considerate way you ministered to her ( and the Mormon
people) is always evident in your correspondence . Millie is in a difficult situation by being
married to a Mormon, I can’t imagine what that would be like , but God will help her to minister
to her husband . Praise God for a ministry like MRM to assist her.
Obviously we don’t know the circumstances of their conversation – I think it interesting that he asked “where do YOU come from” as opposed to “we” “humans” etc. At the very least, I should think he thinks LDS have a better answer to this than Christians do. But I think this very strange for a number of reasons.
I suppose LDS might think that Christians don’t know where they came from and that since LDS have an answer that that in itself is an advantage and sign of truth. But like many things LDS, I find, that just because you have an answer doesn’t mean you have something to boast about. Let’s look at the LDS answer:
Millie says that LDS believe that we came from Heaven, but this would be like saying that I came from McDonalds – Heaven and McDonalds have nothing to do with my origin. Rather, as we see in Sharon’s response the essence of personality, spirit, self is intelligence which (since God cannot create anything) has always existed. So, immediately, we have a lot of the LDS story stripped away – we didn’t come from “heaven”, we didn’t get born from spirit parents (rather, we just received spirit bodies from spirit parents-this seems to make an issue for LDS who like to think of the LDS god as the first and ultimate – where did his wife come from?), we are not god’s children and, if we are gods-in-embryo it is not from any relation between Heavenly Father and us. Thus Heavenly Father really isn’t an ultimate god (nor apparently the first of anything), nor is he our father directly but only in an adoptive sense, Jesus isn’t really our brother – rather our spirit body brother only. etc.
The more you look behind the official story of “creation” given by the LDS the less and less of the warm familial feelings you have. It’s no longer a family at all but a bunch of intelligences acting as a family. They’re not connected in any familial way but by the “spirit body” (whatever that is now) they have all assumed and originated (however that could be since the LDS god can’t create anything) with the Heavenly Father. Jesus is no longer our brother, but then neither is Satan. The LDS god is neither our father nor a god in the traditional sense but rather just a “more intelligent intelligence” that “found” himself among spirits and glory and then apparently decided that he would set up the rules/way for the other intelligences to get to where he was – a generous action i suppose. But I wonder what would have happened if the Great Intelligence had not interfered with the other intelligences, surely the great Intelligence became great somehow without intervention. In this way we find only one real origin in LDS teaching – matter. We came from intelligent matter that the Great Intelligence helped along the way. And whom the Great Intelligence will judge, banish, and exalt.
Just a wonderful study, Sharon. Thanks so much for your ministry. You have helped Millie a lot. God bless Millie and her husband.
Woodruff account of a discussion of the “first god”, from his Journals:
“During our travels to day I walked most of the way with Professors Pratt, & Carrington And our conversation turned upon the subject of the original formation of God, Angels, men, & Devils the beget-ting of Spirits in the eternal world, & who by, the begetting of Children on the earth, the Death of men & children & the resurrection of All. Each one gave his views, opinions, & reasoning & many interesting remarks were truly made And Any person who should [p.217] chance to read these lines I wish them to understand that the Ideas given upon these points were not given as doctrin but opinion untill sum thing better should present itself or be decided by revelation.
One of the most important Items If true was presented by Professor Pratt upon A Subject that Heretofore has been entirely out of the reach of All mankind from the days of Adam to the present time As far as is revealed to us. It was upon the subject of the original formation of the first God. We all admitted in the first place that which we believed to be an important truth ie the eternal formation of matter spirit, intelligence in some form or other. We also Agreed in the opinion that Neither God nor man Always had from all eternity the same formation that they now have but did exhist in some form for if we Admitted the fact that one being exhisted in the present form all might have exhisted in the same form as well as one.
Then the question arose how did God recieve his present formation? The Answer given by Professor Pratt was sumthing in the following language:
He sayes I throw out my Ideas not as doctrin but for you to look at. You know when A Chemist goes to work to Analize or try new experiments they often have to try many times before they put a thing perfect & take certain processes which are unnecessary and are afterward laid aside And pursue the most perfect Course that can be [pursu]ed. It may reasonably have been the case with the first being [form]ed which may be Called God. As eternity was filled as it were with particles of intelligence who had there Agency, two of these particles in process of time might have joined their interest together exchanged ideas found by persueing this course that they gained [double?] strength to what one particle of intelligence would have & afterwards were joined by other particles & continued untill they formed A combination or body though through a long process.
Yet they had power over other intelligences in consequence of their combination, organization & strength And in process of time this being body or [p.218] God seeing the the Advantage of such an organization desires company or A companion And Having some experiance goes to work & organizes other beings by prevailing intelligences to come to gether & may form sumthing better than at the first. And After trials of this kind & the most perfect way sought ought it was found to be the most expeditious & best way to recieve there formations or bodies either spiritual or temporal through a womb.” (Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, Vol. 3, p. 217-218, June 26, 1847, bold mine, original spelling retained)._johnny
“In this way we find only one real origin in LDS teaching – matter.”
What interesting comments, Spartacus and Grindael. From reading your thoughts and quotes, I realized how much I don’t know about the LDS religion.
If I understand what you have described, we begin with matter. Uncreated matter. Some of which is organized in a way that is self-aware. One such intelligence is more advanced than the others, and considered by them as a god. This material god then tells the other intelligences how they may slowly progress, or evolve, over possibly eons of time, to become gods themselves?
This is a form of naturalism, a plain denial of creation. (As much a denial as the philosophy of Darwinian evolution.) It is also a denial of the God who spoke, and light appeared. Who spoke, and plant and animal life then were. A God whose mere words brought into existence what had not existed in any form.
I know that only God is self-existent. All matter has been created by God.
Whether these intelligences are each the foundation of our identity (e.g.-I am intelligence #654738820) or whether 654,738,820 intelligences grouped together to make my spirit-me is something I have not been able to determine from what I have read on this topic. Grindael’s posts seem to indicate the latter. However, I have not seen a systematic exposition on these teachings by JS or any other LDS prophet/leader.
The LDS author Orson Scott Card uses the idea of intelligences creating things in his Ender Wiggin series (the 3rd book- Xenocide- I believe).If I remember correctly they were basically spacial coordinates with will enough to align with any stronger will present. Anyone familiar with Card knows that many LDS ideas or events have made it into his writing. There he postulates many intelligences forming one thing.
But then this again seems to obscure the nature and origin of humans. Is it intelligence that is unique to spirits/humans or is it matter. LDS theology states that everything was made in spirit before being made into matter. I seem to remember hearing that JS described spirit as particularly “fine” matter.
I agree with you Brian, it is not difficult to see the similarity between this spiritual theology of fine matter progressing to complex gods and the materialist theory of evolution.
It seems that a common thread among those false prophets who claim to represent Jesus’
N.T. Church is that of new light from God , new insight on the scriptures about God that is
greatly needed for these last days. The Bible testifies that our Creator is so majestic, so
beyond our ability to fully comprehend Him . But this fact proves to be no barrier for
some prophets. Joseph Smith claimed that God being always God was incomprehensible
to some, but to him it was actually simple . He had special insight from God Himself which
was now to be revealed. God was actually only a man , an “exalted” man who somehow
attainded to His present position as Almighty God. Due to un-timely death Joseph Smith
was not able to expand much on this new truth about how God came to be God. Subsequent
Mormon leaders, who as apostles were privately taught by Joseph , and mentored by him ,
proceeded to lead their people not only West into a new land but also were able to teach
their people the spiritual truths that the Holy Ghost had begun to reveal to Joseph Smith.
For generations since these times Mormon authorities have repeatedly answered the question
of where men and women came from. God is an exalted married man who together with His
exalted wife(s) beget children in heaven , spirit babies. These infants grow to maturity in
heaven and then are sent to earth to prove their worthiness ( by being married themselves) to
return to heaven . Mormonism has thus revealed where we came from — our Parents, a
exalted heavenly male and female . I’m sure that Millie’s husband probably did’nt want tell to
her that.
[But the Bible teaches (and Christianity affirms) that . . .]
more accurately should read;
But the Bible teaches(as filtered through man made Christian definitions affirms) that . . .
fred
Wow, and I thought I was the only one out there in the same situation! lol. Sure feels that way the majority of the time. I can completely and totally relate to her describing it as “like talking to someone from a foreign country”. I love all of the responses on here. Really, from my understanding, the lds religion takes such simple concepts and then turns them into something else entirely. Mike, I agree with you. They always seem to cleverly leave out the part where God is married to a bunch of wives and has millions of spirit babies, etc etc. It doesn’t seem to be enough for God to have the power to speak us into existence; there needs to be some kind of system, some further explanation that seems to come from way out in left field. I pray the Lord opens Millie’s husband’s eyes and heart. I know all too well that ache for spiritual oneness with your spouse.
Fred, would there be a point you’re trying to make ?
But One thing to note was that in Woodruffs’ account it is just their speculation of how God came to be. Kudos to Grindael for that information.
the Bible teaches(as filtered through man made Christian definitions affirms) that . . .
Gee Fred you have a good point. I often wonder where some of the thing Christians define got there beginnings. Did luther start saved by grace alone?
MaM (and later fproy and Clyde)
MaM = “It doesn’t seem to be enough for God to have the power to speak us into existence; there needs to be some kind of system, some further explanation that seems to come from way out in left field.” I agree with your sentiment MaM. When I hear LDS beliefs I often think “What don’t they get about what the Bible says? Is it so unsatisfactory? How is what they are saying possibly better (true or not) possibly more attractive?” This leads me to fproy and Clyde…
fproy – 1) everything is filtered through human definitions – if not, then humans wouldn’t be able to understand it or humans can only understand words that they have their definitions for. 2) claiming that Christian definitions are man-made rather than God-influenced/determined is simply to beg the question “what is from God/what is true?”
Clyde – I have some trouble being sure what your point is here. So forgive me if I interpret your Kudos as sarcastic and your Gee as just cultural nonsarcasm. If memory serves, then you have shown yourself to be LDS from previous statements. However my memory isn’t what it used to be with all my working and not so much sleeping; I did check the last handful of pieces/comments and didn’t find anything of yours to confirm. So, I’ll say you are right to give (respectful) kudos to Grindael for giving the context – as so many LDS like to bemoan Christian refusal or inability to do.
As for grace alone – no Luther didn’t have to start that – anyone reading John would learn such. Anyone reading the bible at all would have to bring their works definitions with them… (contd.)
… (contd.)
See, the OT is all about how humans can’t make the grade. Even with the Word of God in the form of the OT and even with the commandments and even with the Spirit leading and guiding them, humans fail sooner rather than later, always. So would it make much sense for the NT to continue with the same old “Act Good”? No, instead, God actually fixes the problem with the substitutionary sacrifice and death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ. When Jesus is talking about doing the will of the Father is he really just repeating the same Old Testament teaching? Or is he saying something else by BEING The Sacrifice prophesied in the OT for sinning humans while telling them to believe in him and do the will of the Father? Much of what Jesus commands and teaches is that people believe in him and do the will of the Father. So it is up to you the reader to interpret this as “believe in jesus so you can trust his teachings about how to be exalted by your own works and power as guided by the Spirit” or “believe in jesus so you can be changed before God by his sacrifice and made into a new creature by his Spirit and bear fruit accordingly by the power (not just guidance) of the HS”.
At this point the actual stance of the LDS church on the purpose and influence of the Holy Spirit is critical. I don’t claim to be an expert, but from what I have read (LDS and otherwise) and from what I have heard from LDS members, meetings, and conferences my “guidance not empowerment” interpretation was all I could justify.
Spartacus
Kudos was not sarcastic. Grindael provided information about Woodruffs’ thoughts on God as well as others. Information like this is very important. History deals with a persons personal thoughts and at times they are lost to history . Anytime these thoughts are keep alive, no matter how a historian may twist them, they are important information.
There are things that I have read that do not put the church (LDS) in a very good light. The christian church does not look to good to me either. I mention Luther because their is a timeline that confuses people. Before the common man could read the bible was saved by grace alone preached? Are any sermons saying this still in existence? It is a question that historian might want to research.
Clyde6070,
You asked “was saved by grace alone preached” before Luther and the common man could read the Bible? The short answer is Yes! Here is an article showing the teachings of the early Church Fathers and how they reflect the Solas of the Reformation:
http://www.issuesetcarchive.org/issues_site/resource/archives/weedon.htm
God’s Word – His message of salvation through His promised Messiah, giving His life on the cross for our sins, never changes!
Clyde said
Here is the problem with LDS, They dont read the Bible, and when and if they do, they ignore most of it or say, it is wrong.
Way to many people, Non-Christians, Christians, LDS and others have this crazy Idea that their are two gods. The God of the OT who is evil and angry, and the God of the NT who is love and kindness. Their is only One God and both are the same. This is part of the Problem.
Go back and read the Book of Jonah, Part of the story that people miss or purposely ignore is, Why did Jonah Run away? He wanted God to destroy Ninavah. Jonah Knew God would spare them so he ran away. Read
God is Kind and loving even in the OT, He rebuked Jonah for wanting to see them destroyed. We see grace in the OT. Then lets not forget this.
By Grace we are saved, not of works, Why is this so hard? It’s hard because people want to save themselves so they can partake of the glory. Look what I did, I’m better than you.
This is a great article that helped me understand the mainstream christian view of the soul creation. I hope it helps Millie and her husband come to understand each other’s positions a bit more.
Sharon was right our beliefs tend to color are reading of scripture. It’s the same with many doctrine; original sin, the trinity, creatio ex materia (that lds understanding of preexistence is a part of) and so on.
I enjoyed the article by John Divotto mentioned above. It was well thought out and well written. Anyone interested in reading an article that response to most of his arguments may enjoy this article by Kevin Barney.
http://www.fairwiki.org/images/d/d6/PreExistenceBibleBarney.pdf
In it he briefly discusses the different ideas throughout christian history of where the soul comes from, the evolution of preexistence in lds thought and then counter arguments to many of the verses cited by critics.
[2) claiming that Christian definitions are man-made rather than God-influenced/determined is simply to beg the question “what is from God/what is true?”]
MRM teaches that if you do not follow the correct creed, you are not the right kind of Christian, or you are not even a Christian.
Creeds that were made by men disagreeing on what God meant in His Word
Creeds that add definitions to God’s word in the Bible.
Definitions that narrowed and took away from God’s Word.
fred
Fred,
Before you start with the whole Creed thing, lets remember a few things here.
1. I dont care what any creed says or what some Man says, What Did God Say? What He said is all I really care about.
2. LDS have creeds and things men said and the live by them. Articles of Faith, 14 Fundamentals in following the prophet and other such things.
Then I know some LDS will say, I dont agree with the AoF or the 14 Fund, teaching. Thats great if you say that or some LDS say that, Some follow it some dont, same for Christians. So remember, before you start barking up the tree, something you complain we do as Christians, you as LDS do.
Same with the whole, I think Christians are wrong because they have so many denominations. Well so do the LDS, But why do LDS talk about us having various denominations, yet ignore the fact LDS have them as well?
TJayT said
Here is the problem though, we find in the Bible original sin, the trinity, creatio ex nihlo Etc, Yet lds refuse to see it or believe it. But Mormons preexistence is not taught in the BoM. Funny how This is a major doctrine and The BoM will get you closer to God than any other book according to JS, Yet this major doctrine is not taught in the “Most correct book” upon the earth.
Clyde,
To use that quote without the entire context would be highly disingenuous. Many people don’t have access to Woodruff”s Journals, and it would be hard for the average person to double check it. But somebody would, and how would that reflect on my credibility? There are few instances, when Mormon Authorities do this, however, (I only know of about four), and Woodruff was one that was careful to distinguish between his opinion, and what he deemed revelation, or inspiration. I totally understood your “Kudos”, and always hope that others would quote in context, whether critics, or Mormon Apologists, but alas, there are always some who manipulate quotes. I have been accused of being too detailed, because of the length of my quotes, by many Mormons, (too long, they say) but I always try to be thorough with references.
I was appalled by the late Matthew Brown’s F.A.I.R. presentation on Adam-God a few years ago, where he used ellipses to manipulate Young’s quotes extensively. Sometimes ellipses are necessary, (Mormon Authorities tended to ramble in the 19th century), but a lot of times, critics will use them, and it only hurts anyone’s credibility when the source is compared and deception is shown. The problem with quoting Mormon Apostles and Prophets, in contrast to men like Luther, is that the Mormons claim they speak directly for God, as did the Apostles in Jesus time. Luther made no such claim, thus his words are interesting, but not authoritative. Mormons have tried to use the same tack with their own Authorities, but unfortunately, their own statements tend to overrule this, as does Smith’s words to Orson Hyde in D&C Section 68. _johnny
“It is a marvelous thing and unknown to the world to teach Christians to ignore the Law and to live before God as though there were no Law whatever. For if you do not ignore the Law and thus direct your thoughts to grace as though there were no Law but as though there were nothing but grace, you cannot be saved. “For through the Law comes knowledge of sin” (Rom. 3:20). On the other hand, works and the performance of the Law must be demanded in the world as though there were no promise or grace. This is because of the stubborn, proud, and hardhearted, before whose eyes nothing must be set except the Law, in order that they may be terrified and humbled. For the Law was given to terrify and kill the stubborn and to exercise the old man. Both words must be correctly divided, according to the apostle (2 Tim. 2:25 ff.),
This calls for a wise and faithful father who can moderate the Law in such a way that it stays within its limits. For if I were to teach men the Law in such a way that they suppose themselves to be justified by it before God, I would be going beyond the limit of the Law, confusing these two righteousnesses, the active and the passive, and would be a bad dialectician who does not properly distinguish. But when I go beyond the old man, I also go beyond the Law. For the flesh or the old man, the Law and works, are all joined together. In the same way the spirit or the new man is joined to the promise and to grace. Therefore when I see that a man is sufficiently contrite, oppressed by the Law, terrified by sin, and thirsting for
comfort, then it is time for me to take the Law and active righteousness from his sight and to set forth before him, through the Gospel, the passive righteousness which excludes Moses and the Law and shows the promise of Christ, who came for the afflicted and for sinners. Here a man is raised up again and gains hope. Nor is he any longer under the Law; he is under grace, as the apostle says (Rom. 6:14): “You are not under law but under grace.” How not under law? According to the new man, to whom the Law does not apply. For the Law had its limits until Christ, as Paul says below (Gal. 3:24): “The Law, until Christ.” When He came, Moses and the Law stopped. So did circumcision, Sacrifices, and the Sabbath. So did all the prophets.
This is our theology, by which we teach a precise distinction between these two kinds of righteousness, the active and the passive, so that morality and faith, works and grace, secular society and religion may not be confused. Both are necessary, but both must be kept within their limits. Christian righteousness applies to the new man, and the righteousness of the Law applies to the old man, who is born of flesh and blood. Upon this latter, as upon an ass, a burden must be put that will oppress him. He must not enjoy the freedom of the spirit or of grace unless he has first put on the new man by faith in Christ, but this does not happen fully in this life. Then he may enjoy the kingdom and the ineffable gift of grace. I am saying this in order that no one may suppose that we reject or prohibit good works, as the papists falsely accuse us because they
understand neither what they themselves are saying nor what we are teaching. They know nothing except the righteousness of the Law; and yet they claim the right to judge a doctrine that is far above and beyond the Law, a doctrine on which the carnal man is unable to pass judgment. Therefore it is inevitable that they be offended, for they cannot see any higher than the Law. Therefore whatever is above the Law is the greatest possible offense to them.
We set forth two worlds, as it were, one of them heavenly and the other earthly. Into these we place these two kinds of righteousness, which are distinct and separated from each other. The righteousness of the Law is earthly and deals with earthly things; by it we perform good works. But as the earth does not bring forth fruit unless it has first been watered and made fruitful from above—for the earth cannot judge, renew, and rule the heavens, but the heavens judge, renew, rule, and fructify the earth, so that it may do what the Lord has commanded—so also by the righteousness of the Law we do nothing even when we do much; we do not fulfill the Law even when we fulfill it. Without any merit or work of our own, we must first be justified by Christian righteousness, which has nothing to do with the righteousness of the Law or with earthly and active righteousness. But this righteousness is heavenly and passive. We do not have it of ourselves; we receive it from heaven. We do not perform it; we accept it by faith, through which we ascend beyond all laws and works. “As, therefore, we have borne the image of the earthly Adam,” as Paul says, “let us bear the image of the heavenly one”
(1 Cor. 15:49), who is a new man in a new world, where there is no Law, no sin, no conscience, no death, but perfect joy, righteousness, grace, peace, life, salvation, and glory.
Then do we do nothing and work nothing in order to obtain this righteousness? I reply: Nothing at all. For this righteousness means to do nothing, to hear nothing, and to know nothing about the Law or about works but to know and believe only this: that Christ has gone to the Father and is now invisible; that He sits in heaven at the right hand of the Father, not as a Judge but as one who has been made for us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption from God (1 Cor. 1:30); in short, that He is our High Priest, interceding for us and reigning over us and in us through grace. Here one notices no sin and feels no terror or remorse of conscience. Sin cannot happen in this Christian righteousness; for where there is no Law, there cannot be any transgression (Rom. 4:15). If, therefore, sin does not have a place here, there is no conscience, no terror, no sadness. Therefore John says: “No one born of God commits sin” (1 John 3:9). But if there is any conscience or fear present, this is a sign that this righteousness has been withdrawn, that grace has been lost sight of, and that Christ is hidden and out of sight. But where Christ is truly seen, there, there must be full and perfect joy in the Lord and peace of heart, where the heart declares: “Although I am a sinner according to the Law, judged by the righteousness of the Law, nevertheless I do not despair. I do not die, because Christ lives who is my righteousness
and my eternal and heavenly life. In that righteousness and life I have no sin, conscience, and death. I am indeed a sinner according to the present life and its righteousness, as a son of Adam where the Law accuses me, death reigns and devours me. But above this life I have another righteousness, another life, which is Christ, the Son of God, who does not know sin and death but is righteousness and eternal life. For His sake this body of mine will be raised from the dead and delivered from the slavery of the Law and sin, and will be sanctified together with the spirit.” (Martin Luther, Commentary on Galatians, http://gospelpedlar.com/articles/Christian%20Life/luther_gal.html )
I thought this important enough to quote, for it gives a very balanced view of what Martin Luther believed, and how Christians understand grace and works. This is not all of it, you may click on the link to read the entire commentary. _johnny
My Backstory:
Since I’ve been sick the last few days I’ve been on here a lot more than usual. And since this topic came about from a married couple’s situation I thought it appropriate to finally give you guys some background on me.
Within just months of my wife and I marrying my wife told me that she wanted to start LDS missionary lessons. Wha!!? Apparently the young couple next door were LDS-sure. But then, unbeknownst to me, my bride had had an LDS friend in her teen years and when her mother shut it down as “evil” she never hung out with her again, but thought that LDS was probably true.
I now largely blame her mother for what has taken place for the past 6+ years. Whether it was my wife’s ignorance or unpreparedness-though not total but significant responsibility lies with the parents, but particularly for overreacting and not following up with her about what she had learned about LDS and how she felt about it and teaching her what the truth about LDS and Christianity were.
What is particularly interesting was that the first time I went through the missionary lessons I was still in my initial lifelong struggle with Ultimate Truh and particularly Jesus, the Bible, and Christianity. So when I heard things about “total apostacy” I thought, from my philosophy background-“hmm, bold claim, let’s wait and see if they support it at all.” Throughout these lessons there were so many questions of clarification, evidence, and consistency that I ended up just not speaking because I didn’t want to deluge them with my questions, thoughts, and their multi-level implications for all the rest they were presenting. Luckily, they had a problem with how we lived so baptism didn’t happen then. (contd.)
(contd.)
Eventually that first interest of my wife’s in the LDS church seemed to just die away.
(I think there was another set of lessons in here somewhere- i’ll have to clarify with my wife later)
But, then, maybe a year later my wife comes to me saying “I want to get baptized into the LDS church.” WHAT!?! So now I could blame myself for not following through about this and not taking it more seriously-my only excuse was that I was not decided about God at the time myself. But now I was and so I did take it seriously, very seriously. I read everything at my Christian bookstore – I was by now a follower of Christ. This time into the lessons when it came to the apostacy I thought “this is crazy, do they know how absurd and offensive this is? and with smiles no less!” I agreed with my wife that anything that I brought to her attention would have to be from LDS primary sources. So I read the BoM, and eventually 3/4 of DnC, Ensigns, listened to and took notes much more studiously than the LDS around me (few if any were obviously paying direct attention and the rest mind-wandering or putting together puzzles, eyes never leaving the board). And, of course, when my wife was able (luckily not so often nor consistently) we went to meetings. We had gone before but now as a Christian I could hear not just the lack of passion but the twist of gospel. It was painful, depressing and maddening. God kept my cool.
Unfortunately my wife is superlatively sensitive already, combine this with LDS persecution complex and I could hardly breach the issues with her. She got baptized. (contd.)
I can’t describe how hard this time was for me. As MaM said about the “ache for spiritual oneness with your spouse” it was heart-wrenching. This not only challenged my relationship with my wife (not endangering it but surely stressing it) but also with God (again, not endangering it but surely stressing it).
Let me clarify: any interaction with new and different ideas will (hopefully) make one take a new perspective on their own beliefs. Beliefs, claims, and perspectives of LDS did give me opportunity to reconsider particular nuances of my understanding of God, Jesus, the Bible, and the way Christianity is taught/lived today. These are not at all new activities for me, but the LDS stuff I was confronted with gave me a slightly new way to constantly review, test, and refine my devotion to God Almighty. I was concerned, if my efforts failed and my wife’s trumped God’s (if that’s possible) about the implications for my wife’s destiny-the topics of gauranteed salvation/sustained salvation (works) was and is still a tough one. I was frustrated with the known and respected intellect of my wife that seemed to be being bypassed, or bamboozled into thinking that the Bible and LDS were compatible. I honestly considered the possibility that it might be true and I was deceived.
That last one didn’t last long. As a philosophically bent person the thought comes up in almost everything on a pretty regular basis, but the more and more I learned about LDS the more it seemed an impossibility.
I took heart in my wife’s initial refusal to believe that God was a polygamist, but lamented the lack of consideration of the implications by her. Eventually she even seemed to be softening on that… (contd.)
When we did talk it was, at most, a couple minutes before she cried-it was obviously hard on her too-More anger for me. She would constantly say that she could see how it was compatible with what we believed as Christians. She never could explain-communicating supercomplex ideas is not her forte (is it anyone’s?). I always prayed and knew it was God’s work to do. I just wanted to be ready when and if God wanted to use me. So I kept studying;I burnt out for a bit but then eased back in.
A note-I also remember my wife balling about not wanting to believe that God was not the one and only=Ultimate. It was a strange experience being simultaneously bewildered that she would even consider such a possibility(at least for one’s devotion), and, yet, admiring my wife’s willingness to believe the truth about God whatever it was and follow God wherever He led her.
That’s what she thought she was doing-following God’s lead (testimony of BoM/JS vision) into the ever deepening and clearer relationship with God that all Christians desire. This is a bit of my perspective and respect for LDS-though selfishness and laziness participate(not unique to any religion) I see a lot of LDS being confronted with the difficulties of trusting things in the world but wanting so much more to believe the truth about God that they give themselves up to “revelation” and subjective experience instead, ignoring or ignorant of all the trust they’re putting into the people of the world that make up the LDS church.
Thankfully, Wonderfully, Unexpectedly-after a little discussion on methods of seeking Ultimate truth, reading some critiques by LDS, some exit stories-all she doesn’t credit, she wakes me and says “I don’t believe in the LDSchurch anymore.”
It was particularly tough the first few days. I stayed home from work to be with her. She went from balling with loss to anger to joy of truth. We are still working on dealing with all the loose ends (finally) though slowly.
Like I said, she doesn’t credit the things we did together – that she had never done before – but She says now that, with a certain unforseeably powerful minor event (which I omit on purpose of keeping her anonymity) she realized that it was taking too much twisting to fit the Bible with LDS. Her initial testimony of Christ won out! I’m so thankful to God for helping us through all this. It’s so tough to write all the praise, glory, wonder, and worship due. So for now…
THANK YOU FATHER, JESUS, HOLY SPIRIT- GOD ALMIGHTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!thank You, thank You, thank You, thank You, thank You…………………
(sorry about all the “c”‘s in apostasy-it always tries to get in there! it won on these posts.)
Fred, you seem concerned by creeds, but even the Mormon Church has a creed, they
just don’t use that particular term to often . You mentioned MRM and it’s creed . As a ministry
that serves the Christian Body it is important that they offer a statement of faith so that a
person can see where they[MRM] stand on spiritual truth. They also offer a chance for a person
to evaluate the claims of Mormonism by offering research on comparing Mormon doctrine with
the Bible . They take Jesus’ warning to beware of false prophets seriously. If you are a Mormon
you should be concerned with this warning as you follow a prophet who claims to be God’s
mouthpiece.
Spartacus, thank you for sharing your story . Praise God for how He has helped you and your
wife ! Is’nt He incredible ? Your contributions here are a blessing .
spartacus, thank you so much for sharing your story. It’s testimonies like yours that give me hope that my husband will eventually be completely free from the hold the lds church has on him. Unfortunately, he was raised in it, so it’s taken yeeeeeaaars to get where we are now. But that indoctrination is strong. Praise the Lord that He worked a miracle in your marriage. You definitely have plenty reason to be thankful. 🙂
Rick B,
I don’t refuse to see where mainstream Christianity is coming from on these and other issues. Far from it, if there wasn’t a Biblical reference for the teachings they wouldn’t have persisted for as long as they have. That said I would argue against the Bible proves these doctrine once and for all. If it did I can’t imagine why the Heresies of Arianism or Modalism ever sprung up, or why non-lds scholars can look at original sin and call it an invention of second century Christianity. The doctrine should have been cut and dry from the very beginning. The fact remains there is room for honest and intelligent people to read the Bible and come away with very different takes on it’s teachings.
As for the BoM, to me how God made everything or what will happen after I leave this mortal coil isn’t what the Gospel is about. The Gospel is the good news that Jesus has saved us from sin, and that through him we can be saved from spiritual death. In that respect the BoM has the fullness of the Gospel as “Another testament of Jesus Christ”. Also JS said following the teachings of the BoM would get us closer to God then any other book. If you believe that at times men have misinterpreted the Bible then that would be true, by bringing men back to a different interpretation of the biblical passages.
Spartacus,
I grew up in a home with one “active” and one “nonactive” parent. Knowing how hard that situation was I can’t imagine how much harder it would be if it was my wife and we had two differing religions. God bless you and your family in your search for God, and may you have many happy years doing it. Also get well soon:)
I think that its a little sad that people spend all of their time trying to bring down someone’s beliefs instead of preaching their own. If someone wants to believe in mormonism, that’s their choice. You have your own beliefs which you choose to believe in. Why waste your time arguing what mormons believe in…preach your own religious beliefs instead of walking over someone elses.
curious,
Ever heard of the Mormon missionaries? Do they just preach their own religion without walking over someone elses? I don’t think so. I was LDS for 40 years and I heard members walking all over Christianity, I did it myself because that’s what I was taught. Comments like this aggravate me. The Bible says that Christians are to contend for the faith. This site is about showing the doctrines of Mormonism. All of them. Even most lay members have no clue that certain things were and are taught. This site testifies to the truthfulness of Christianity and God’s Holy Word. Mormons claim to be Christian while tearing down the doctrines and teachings of Christianity. My own Mormon friends and family do this.
spartacus,
Thanks for sharing some of your life with us. I have seen the hardships of part member families and I know how hard this can be. My husband was also raised LDS, while I was researching I was VERY verbal about it and he and our children listened to me. We had discussions about what I was finding. I bought the NT on CD and one day he came in and started talking about what Jesus said about marriage in Heaven. I had no clue he had borrowed my CD’s and was listening to them on his commute to work. The Bible speaks for itself if we will let it. None of us believe in Mormonism now. God is so much more than Mormonism gives him credit for. Feel better soon!
curious,
People like you really need to think before you speak, then think really long and hard. You complain people like Christians tear down other peoples religion. Did Jesus say to some, You are in Error of Scripture? Yes He did. Is that tearing down another man’s beliefs?
You did not share what you believe, you only did what you accuse us of doing, You were complaining. Honestly, how did that help any of us? Did you read in the Bible how their are wolves in sheeps clothing trying to kill and destroy? What about False prophets? If these wolves and false prophets exist and are trying to kill and destroy, should we not be able to expose them? Your actions would say No.
Did you also forget, JS said what I believe is an abomination, am I simply to just say, OK, and not refute his teachings? Will you be another Hit and run Mormon who comes, complains and leaves, or will you be back and share your faith in great detail and show us the Love of Christ and set us free? I think I know the answer to that.
Curious,
Welcome! If I remember correctly a you’re non-mormon that’s here looking for answers about a mormonism. Forgive me if I’m a mistaken. I’m Lds, and while I’d be the first to admit things can get a little heated in here I’ve always been treated with respect despite my theological differences with others.
Personally I’m here to learn the alternate viewpoint to my beliefs. I take questions information I learn here and compare it with information and questions from lds sources like http://www.FAIRmormon.org I have learned more in the past few months then I ever have before. This time of testing and questioning has brought me closer to God than I ever have been before. Good luck in your search for answers and truth.
Thank you all for appreciating my story and encouraging my recovery. My wife turned the tide hopefully last night. I’m just hoping I get an ok from my doctor to see my family for thanksgiving without risking them getting it.
TJayT, I appreciate your response. I thought it would be a bit strange, as an LDS believer, to read my post, but I thank you for your kindness in what you could relate to.
Curious,
You are welcome to stay and relate and grow with us. As for your comment -there’s all kinds of things I could say. In line with Rick B, you did just about as close to bringing down someone’s belief as I can imagine it. In this case you were bringing down the belief of the people here that they had some insight into significant truth which was worth communicating to others for their benefit.
Also I’m not sure what your point is – what your suggestion would lead to of worth. See if we just ignored what other’s believed but preached our own beliefs then what? Would we expect the other non-mormons and mormons to just listen? Or would they just preach their beliefs too? So we would just be preaching our beliefs at each other? Would we just allow the apparent differences of what each side preached be implicit “bring downs” of the other side? Is that what you want to limit the bring downs to – just the implicit differences/contradictions apparent to those willing to consider them as they listen to both sides self-represent?
Or, another issue, what is bringing down another’s beliefs-Is it just saying they are wrong? Seeker’s for truth aren’t nearly so worried about what they believe as what’s actually True.(contd)
Curious, with all do respect to TjayT’s effort to steer attention to “LDS sources” which are
not official , you should compare what MRM has to offer and compare it with the actual
official source of Mormon doctrine— the teachings of Mormon prophets and apostles.
You can draw closer to God , the True and Living God , by asking for His assistence as you
read the Bible, especially the New Testament as it reveals the spiritual truths Jesus gave to
His apostles to preach. Embracing this gospel [ 1Cor15:1-4] can bring eternal life. It can also
be a shield against any so-called gospels from latter-day prophets–Matt 7:15; 24:11.
God bless you, and thanks for stopping by.
Most of us here, are on to those who come to these kinds of pages, and have nothing else to say but, “why are you criticizing Mormonism”. The reason why, is that many of us are ex-Mormons. Kate, you bring up a good point. I left Mormonism in the 1980’s and had nothing to do with it for over 25 years. What happened? Mormon Missionaries. They knocked on my door, and tried to re-convert me to Mormonism.
This was in 2008. What was different about me, was that I had a new found faith in Jesus, and wasn’t buying it. But that did not stop them from trying to make me see the “error” of my choices, and re-converting me.
Of course, Christians have the choice to close the door and say “not interested”. But many times, Missionaries (I know, because I served a Mission before I left Mormonism) will gain a foothold in the home, if someone is polite, or curious. I found in speaking with them, that it was the same old thing, presenting Mormonism in ignorance.
Do Missionaries, when they find someone who claims to be a Christian, automatically turn and walk away? No they do not. Of course, they claim to have something “better”, but what it boils down to, is that they claim that Christianity is “illegitimate”, with no “authority” to have interaction with God, and perform ordinances like baptism, or partake of the bread and wine in remembrance of Him. This is done, through the “Joseph Smith Story”, which teaches these very things.
To answer such claims, we have many sites (this is one of them) that discuss Mormonism, usually with a heavy ex-Mormon presence, for they are the ones who know the religion the best, having researched it thoroughly,
and lived it for many years. We find that many Mormons come to these sites and make accusations like “Why are you spending ‘ALL’ of your time…”, or “Why do you try to bring others faith down”, or with some, indignation and outrage that any would take any time at all to criticize the basic tenets of Mormonism. These comments are usually made by folks that don’t add an iota of information to the conversation, just give vague accusations, that usually devolve into ad hominems and disbelief in the very statements that have come from their leaders.
When this doesn’t work, they will usually make up all kinds of reasons that any would leave the church, usually involving some kind of a sin, or character flaw, or the best one (Satan), that has made them leave, because it could not be anything else, because Mormonism is “true” because they “know”, because “God told them it was”.
When presented with hard evidence that Mormon “prophets” can’t back up their truth claims, (by way of their own statements and writings), they usually will reply that ex-Mormons have an axe to grind, are a “tool” of some shadowy conspiracy, (usually involving the Tanners, Bill McKeever, or Walter Martin) and that we have learned all of our “lies” from them. When they are told that this is not the case, it will then devolve into a denial on the part of the Mormon that their leaders have said any such things, and that they are being “misquoted” out of context, or that what those men said, is not in the “standard works”, or that we are simply making things up.
They will say that the Church doesn’t believe some of those things any more, and that it simply doesn’t matter, because they have
“moved on”, and that they don’t personally believe those things, and that the “official” version of Mormonism they have been taught, is all that should be presented, because that is what Mormonism is. They will go on and on about “A—i Mormon sources, or that Jesus never “tore anyone down” and that it is not “Christian” to contend for the faith. Yesterday, I spoke with a Mormon Apologist, and we were talking about the Word of Wisdom, and Tithing. The Mormon Apologist stated that:
“You are wrong about tithing: It is not a commandment, and a lot of people do not pay theirs. It and the Word of Wisdom are principles of obedience.”
Of course this is incorrect, and I pointed this out with a quote by a Mormon “prophet”:
[Tithing] is AS ESSENTIAL AS FAITH IN GOD, as REPENTANCE OF SIN, as BAPTISM for the remission of sin, or as the laying on of hands for the GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST. For if a man keep all the law save in one point, and he offend in that, HE IS A TRANSGRESSOR OF THE LAW, and he is NOT ENTITLED to the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But when a man keeps all the law that is revealed, according to his strength. his substance and his ability, though what he does may be little, it is just as acceptable in the sight of God as though he were able to do a thousand times more. (Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, April 1900, p. 47-48)
I quoted Boyd K. Packer on the Word of Wisdom:
“The Word of Wisdom put restrictions on members of the Church. To this day those regulations apply to every member and to everyone who seeks to join the Church. They are so compelling
no one is to be baptized into the Church without first agreeing to live by them. No one will be called to teach or to lead unless they accept them. When you want to go to the temple, you will be asked if you keep the Word of Wisdom. If you do not, you cannot go to the house of the Lord until you are fully worthy.” (“The Word of Wisdom: The Principle and the Promises”, Ensign, May 1996)
This Mormon Apologist then said (totally reversing himself):
“So what if it is? There is no evidence that tithing was ever renounced by the Savior. many people do not pay their tithes, but I figure it’s up to the Lord to decide what to do with them. Disobeying this commandment does not carry the same penalty as disobeying one of the Ten Commandments, as far as I know. It will keep one out of the Temple, but I can’t think of any other penalty that might come from failure to pay tithes.”
I then pointed out (again) the above quote by F. Smith, that said he was wrong again, about disobeying it. He acted like being “kept out of the Temple” is no big deal. In fact, he also forgets that those that don’t pay their tithing are promised to “burn” if they don’t.
The point here, is that I caught him in a lie, and instead of acknowledging it, he tried to excuse it away with anything but the truth. (And there is “evidence” that tithing as practiced by Mormonism is not a component of the New Testament Church).
This is not an isolated case. Time after time, Mormons will misrepresent what they teach, in an effort to convert Christians, and then when confronted with the truth, deny it, and claim that those
that know the facts are just wrong. But many, knowing that they cannot defend against what Mormonism truly teaches, will only “hit and run”, using tired old generalizations that we are “tearing them down”, while all that is being done, is presenting what Mormonism truly teaches.
Why do some “waste their time”? For these very reasons. As Paul admonished,
“I give you this charge: 2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.” (2 Timothy 4)
This has not changed. Mormons say that they are Christians. If they are, their truth claims will stand in the light, agreeing with God’s revealed Word, the Bible.
For a Biblical perspective on tithing and the word of wisdom, please read this, that I posted in response to these added “regulations”. http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=238718136143610
_johnny
(contd)
Curious,
Seeker’s for Truth and for living by the Truth invite criticism-preferably constructive-but they know that correction is needed all the time. If people just want to believe what they believe already, then this is not the place for them-nor is much of reality-it has a way of giving feedback.
The Christians here know it is their duty to correct their fellow Christians as well, if an important and clearly understandable issue arises. The LDS here know that the Christians here do not agree with their church, and as this is a blog, will say so. In the end, we are all, assumedly, seekers for Truth and so we encourage eachother’s assistance – critical or supportive – to get us closer to the Truth and living our lives more in line with the Truth. This is the goal.
Now, there are those people who come and just negate without offering a prospective truth. This would be tearing down other’s beliefs. There’s also those who negate and preach without really intereracting with those they are “communicating” with and these again would be next closest to tearing down beliefs. Your post would fit here. The vast majority of us Mormon Coffee patrons (LDS, Christian, or otherwise), at least those that stick around, are here to interact, get to know the other’s side and way of thinking and help everyone closer to Truth, and most of the time with little to no combativeness-alas, we are human and more or less working on our compassion.
So, yeah, just because Christians here claim that LDS are incorrect because of evidences they interpret as showing LDS beliefs false, doesn’t mean Christians here are here to tear down. Tearing down is good for the soul if something is built back.
grindael,
When I first stumbled onto this blog and another one like it, I was so clueless as to how the LDS really handle the teachings of Mormonism. I had dialog on the other blog with a Mormon apologist affiliated with F.A.I.R. I didn’t even know F.A.I.R existed. As I read through his comments to me (pretty ugly) I was floored that he had not only heard of all the doctrines and teachings of Mormonism, but that he was vehemently defending them. Things that I had learned that led me out of the LDS church! This was my first experience with the twisting, spinning, mental gymnastics and lying, whether by omission or flat out! It was all so strange to me. I was always taught that truth mattered. I love reading posts by everyone here. It helps me look outside of the bubble I’ve spent my life in. Mike has really helped me with my anger (I’ve never thanked him for this, THANKS MIKE!) He is so kind and the love of Christ flows from him. I understand how hard it is for the LDS to look objectively at their leadership and the teachings of Mormonism. We’re taught that the LDS church is perfect but the people are not. Which means if you question the LDS church it’s you that has the problem.
Mike R,
Forgive me if I sounded like I think FAIR and other sites like it are the only places people should listen to for Lds answers. What I was trying to say was listen to every scrap of information you can. Look at the journal of discourse, lds.org, mrm.org, FAIR, mormon and nonmormon blogs. Heck I read a fair bit of atheist writings on christianity. Gather the information, test it against the bible and offer it up to God for answers. Do that and he’ll lead you in the right direction.
Rick,
Great post on Jonah and the OT / NT. Wonderful.
Grindael,
Loved your excerpt from Luther’s Commentary on Galatians! (This is perhaps my favorite book, apart from the Bible.)
Fred,
It is good to have you here, friend. An earlier post you shared with us spoke of creeds. It looks like you believe a creed (which means, simply, “I believe”) is designed to debate, or obscure the Bible? To take away from it?
I have read several creeds. I believe they are intended as teaching tools; a summation of important events or teachings within the Bible. Consider the Apostles’ Creed, one of the oldest of all creeds:
“I BELIEVE in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: And in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
“I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.”
This is one of many beautiful creeds. It is often recited weekly by a congregation.