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Is God a sinner? is God not a sinner? Is this a known doctrine or in reality is this just the speculation of both Mormons and our dear commentator Aaron?
Funny thing is that I could take this same (Aaron) video camera and ask Evangelicals if they understand the Trinity and can fully articulate its Theology or Doctrine. Would I get a diverse answer, a spectrum that Aaron refers to with different shades of color?
Choice, what a wonderful gift God has given to man, the ability to use his/her intellect to either be a leader or a follower; to choose this or that doctrine or theory. Speculation is based on theory, but true doctrine is given by the Spirit of God. Since there is no Doctrine given other then God once was a man, then the mystery that God has chosen not to reveal will of course lead to speculation. Does God care? Yes.
Continued:
“And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him
And therefore, he that will harden his hear, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.” (Alma 12:9-11)
Dear Solid LDS,
It is nice to have you at this forum. I hope you feel welcome, friend.
I’ve read over your post, and wanted to offer a brief comment. You’ve told us that “there is no Doctrine given other then God once was a man.”
Jesus Christ has told us, “No one is good—except God alone” (Mark 10:18). If we are to accept the LDS doctrine that God was once not God, then we must also accept that God was once not good.
But I know that God has always been God, and has always been good.
Solid LDS, You said “Since there is no Doctrine given other then God once was a man……” how does the church answer Num. 23:19?
Canuck
Solid LDS Quote:Is God a sinner? is God not a sinner? Is this a known doctrine or in reality is this just the speculation of both Mormons and our dear commentator Aaron?
It is known by Christians, GOD has never been a sinner. (known doctrine)
It is however under speculation for Mormons that their god has been a sinner.
Watch the video…
Based on this scripture, I would have to speculate that God never sinned as a man.
“No one is good—except God alone” (Mark 10:18)
Num. 23:19 this verse is talking about God Glorified, meaning once a man and now He is eternally
God. I see nothing in this verse indicating His life before becoming God.
Since God is a man Glorified, (Mormon doctrine) then it follows that since He is God the following is obvious, He can not lie and is always righteous.
Solid, the verse doesn’t mention God’s life before he was God because that concept is FALSE.
Ardent apologists such as yourself act as contortionists with the Bible. People like you and Helen who have been shown to be wrong never admit it; you just twist and twist like squirming snakes looking for loopholes.
There are loopholes in everything. Instead of choosing to accept the revealed word in the Bible, Mormons live and concentrate on the loopholes. Reading posts like yours by people who are so confident in duplicity helps us see how the LDS mind works: keep the testimony at all costs!!!
In the Biblem God comes right out and says “I am not a man!” The LDS say “Well, not right now, but in the past.” That is NOT what God says. That is NOT how God describes himself. Take HIM at his holy word and stop looking for loopholes!
Why is it important to the LDS that God was once a man? Well, because they want to become gods one day too. That’s the only reason you or any Mormon would fight for this doctrine: pure and utter selfishness— to defend a doctrine made of trash.
Great work as always Aaron. As a Mormon the idea is truly alarming to me. But I don’t see fallacies in your logic. There aren’t any twisting of mormon doctrine that I can see. You have taken an Lds teaching and followed it to a logical conclusion. If the Lds church is correct they need to find a way to address a hole in logic as big as this one, or they aren’t true.
How sad it is to see sincere decent people who are striving to serve God, get detoured by
submitting to false prophets . Mormon doctrine on God seems like an onion, you start with
the false doctrine that Almighty God is only a man who had to work His way up to become
God. Then when you start peeling away layers of this belief you get more aberrant doctrine.
Sinful men needing sinful women to become Gods and Goddesses who create other worlds.
The particular God assigned to this earth by a still greater , older, God who along with a wife
produced him , but this is nothing new ,it has been going on for eons according to Mormon
leaders. How could men who claim to be regularly supervised by Jesus Himself drift this far
off course . Far from being directed by Jesus in delivering this type of spiritual guidance , these
men are more closely aligned with those who are described in Rom. 1:23 .
Jesus warned us to beware of false prophets. Not all false prophets are immoral individuals .
God help the Mormon people to free themselves from the detour of their prophets and receive
an unobstructed view of God. Eternal life is at stake– Jn 17:3
The mysteries of God . The Mormon church claims to have a prophet , indeed the prophet
on earth today who is said to interpret the mind and will of the Lord for church members
and the rest of mankind . There are other prophets who have and do make similar claims .
Jesus cautioned us about future prophets , prophets who would use His name in advertising
their exclusive authority for unveiling truths long hidden from mankind, this deep spiritual
knowledge, these mysteries, were now due to be revealed by God thru His spokesman . This
new revealment would be promoted as added “light” on the scriptures , or perhaps even new
scripture altogether. Those that doubted the prophet would be reminded that it was God who
they were resisting , and that would bring His displeasure . Jesus was concerned with such men
as some would even arise out of His church [ Acts 20:30]. Not content with the Gospel that
Jesus’ original apostles spread to the world after His resurrection, false teachers , prophets,
would promote their new product using scriptural phrases like new “light” or ” line upon line ” .
This would prove successful as people trusted the scriptures . We see all play out in the history
of Mormonism. Joseph Smith claiming to reveal truths about God that had been hidden for
centuries, truths about God that people had “imagined” were true but were incorrect . One such
misconception about God was that He has always been God. Joseph revealed a mystery about
God— God was once just a man who became Almighty God thru continuous effort . Those
apostles he mentored , after his death unveiled further “light” on this . [cont]
TJayT,
It’s nice to have a Mormon on here that is willing to look at Mormon doctrine as is. How refreshing. Not a lot of mental gymnastics. You said: If the Lds church is correct they need to find a way to address a hole in logic as big as this one, or they aren’t true.”
There are holes in a lot of doctrines, teachings and beliefs in Mormonism that I wish the LDS church would stand up and address. It seems sneaky and underhanded to me that the leadership of Mormonism won’t set the record straight and just let the membership and apologists defend it. It makes them appear dishonest. This is part of the reason I left Mormonism.
SolidLDS,
If God was once a man as we are now, going through the trials and earning his way to godhood the same as you are doing as an LDS man, then of course he sinned. Let’s say you make it to Mormon godhood, would it be honest of you to say, “I never sinned?” Would it be such a big deal to you if the inhabitants of your world knew you sinned when you were a man? Wouldn’t you want them to know that you did sin so they can be assured that they too can become a god just as you did? Goal accomplished?
[cont]
In recent years the help that Joseph Smith’s apostles added to understanding this doctrine has
been a bit to uncomfortable for many LDS as they rightly understand the clear implications of
it. After all , worthy Mormon males are themselves living out the process of eternal
progression as their Heavenly Father has done before them. Emulating the lifestyle of their
God, the one assigned to this earth by yet another man- God , is a law that is certainly no
mystery, rather the goal to be attained . Escaping the shackles of sin is a life long pursuit
of faithful Mormon males. One day as Heavenly Fathers themselves they will help their
children do likewise in their progression to Godhood . Like father like son .
In looking ata case relative to the subject of this thread , we can look at Mormon prophet
Brigham Young. Understanding that God will allow him, as prophet, to reveal some mysteries
of God, he proceeded to be obedient to God by unveiling more light on the identity of God.
He taught that our Father in heaven was none other than Adam, it was Adam who together with
his wife produced the spirit child Jesus . But not all LDS embraced this unveiled mystery so
the prophet had to back off and proclaim that it will have to wait until the people were more
ready. Same could be said for the doctrine which is the topic of this thread, namely that
according to what Mormon leaders have already revealed about Heavenly Father being once
a man and progressing like all Mormon males must . Perhaps additional ” light” of what HF
experienced as a man will be unveiled at next conference ?
What Aaron has done is taken the couplet and turned it around. He has ask mormons questions about it and made an assumption that we believe that God once sinned. I see the couplet pointing to my divine potential. I do not know the exact procedure for becoming God. I can only think that it takes Billions of trillions of years.
Aaron,
Fantastic! The love you have for the true and living God of the Bible, the God of Christianity, radiates from you. I enjoyed this video so much and the thought of Jesus being “Uncle Jesus” to future people is very disturbing to me. God has always been God and says himself that he is not man. I know the true and living God of the Bible has never sinned because the Spirit that now indwells in me testifies to this truth. I agree with Mike, “God help the Mormon people to free themselves from the detour of their prophets and receive an unobstructed view of God.”
Clyde,
The Bible tells us to test everything against the scriptures. The claims of Mormonism (and this couplet) should be tested every which way, frontwards, backwards and everywhere in between. I think Aaron has done a fine job of looking at the entire couplet and the claims of Joseph Smith that God was once a man. He wasn’t just addressing the couplet, he was also addressing the King Follett discourse.
Hi Aaron! I appreciate your passion for this. I’m passionate too when I give talks, and annunciate my voice to put meaning into Bible scriptures.
Excellent point that if God was a redeemed sinner, then we would be looking passed him to his redeemer!
I also appreciated your reminder that we, including Mormons, come from sinner Adam, and that redemption is not an abstraction! Absolutely. That’s what I like about it, soteriology is an exchange. Adam gave us the debt of sin that we cannot pay off. Jesus, being “the last Adam,” voluntarily sacrificed his life to buy back before God what Adam willfully lost. (1 Corinthians 15:45) According to divine justice as expressed in the Mosaic Law, soul was to be given for soul. (Exodus 21:23; Leviticus 24:18) Since Adam was created as a sinless soul, another sinless soul had to be given in exchange as a ransom: this ransomer would have to correspond to Adam by being a sinless man. The ransomer would have to voluntarily surrender what Adam lost by his disobedience in Eden, perfect human life. Nothing more, nothing less is required to avoid upsetting the soteriological balance.
Additionally, Jesus “committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.” (1 Peter 2:22, ESV)
Therefore, we can praise the exalted name of Jesus “to the glory of God the Father.” (Philippians 2:9-11)
Kate, as I’ve said before I’m here to listen and learn the alternate viewpoint to my faith, not to come on and scream at everyone for being liars or not understanding us. If I feel an Lds doctrine has a defense then I’ll state it. And if I feel someone brings up a valid point I’ll admit that and see if there is some sort of valid answer. As of yet I haven’t seen one for this point, and I don’t feel the holiness of God is an issue to take lightly.
> “What Aaron has done is taken the couplet and turned it around. He has ask mormons questions about it and made an assumption that we believe that God once sinned. I see the couplet pointing to my divine potential. I do not know the exact procedure for becoming God. I can only think that it takes Billions of trillions of years.”
Clyde, I haven’t assumed. Rather, I have asked. And the answers are embarrassing. That is why I am personally attacked. Better to take the answers I received seriously: It is Mormons who are largely inferring on their own that God the Father may have sinned.
This isn’t a flipping of the Lorenzo Snow couplet, it is an embracing of it. It sounds like you have affirmed the second half but obscured or ignored or even denied the first half. You need to come to terms with both halves, not just the second.
Grace and peace in Jesus.
> “What Aaron has done is taken the couplet and turned it around. He has ask mormons questions about it and made an assumption that we believe that God once sinned. I see the couplet pointing to my divine potential. I do not know the exact procedure for becoming God. I can only think that it takes Billions of trillions of years.”
Didn’t God create time? Does God not exist outside of time? Whenever I hear Mormons say it could take billions of trillions of years to become a god, it just shows how tiny their view of God is. Clyde, if your god is bound by time, I want nothing to do with him.
What it seems like is that people want to give you answers that are extreme speculation. As far as we know there is no right answer to the question at this time.
People can speculate all over the place. Would make for some good science fiction stories. I do look at the second half of the couplet and see it as an example of my potential. The first half as an explanation of it. I can see that it may not matter to people because there is so much to learn that they could care less. The glory of God is intelligence.
To Jeff B. My fellow insomniac
Didn’t God create time? I don’t Know. Does God not exist outside of time? I don’t Know. Whenever I hear Mormons say it could take billions of trillions of years to become a god, it just shows how tiny their view of God is. Time is something we measure and I suppose He might measure it too. Clyde, if your god is bound by time, I want nothing to do with him. Well, you will have to deal with God in your own way. Not all ideas people have about God are true.
Clyde6070 said: “Didn’t God create time? I don’t Know. Does God not exist outside of time? I don’t Know.”
I’m going wildly off topic here, but since Mormons believe in Creatio Ex Materia (that matter is co-eternal with God and he molded it to create everything else) that would imply God didn’t make time (since he didn’t make space, he just filled it with creations). He can see past, present and future, but would still exist “in time”.
That said I don’t really know the Lds position. I just “call them like I see them”.
TjayT, instead of , ” going wildly off topic “. might you face head on the implications of
what said concerning Aaron’s presentation ? You stated , ” You have taken an LDS teaching
and followed it to logical a conclusion . ” Perhaps you don’t realized how serious this is ?
All your church attendance , all your time in helping on civic issues, all your tithing , and
fasting, and promoting family values is great and good, but if you embrace the teachings
of a false prophet on who God is, you’re in very serious trouble as concerns eternal life .
Can you see the need of dismissing your prophets , or is it ” who cares ” , these men teach a
ton on family values and that honors God , right ?
I have heard about that but have not read that much about it. This is something that can be speculated about. Your Idea that “He can see past, present and future, but would still exist “in time”.” is interesting. There can be two ideas about this and the reality can be seen as both of them being right or partially right. To go wildly back onto topic and it could be said that God to become God had to interview everybody that lived on his planet realizing all their emotions, feelings, thoughts and how they reacted to situations and ideas. ( my idea here does not cover everything) To me He would then be like a cross between a card player and chess player knowing when to play and what to play and where to play it. ( That is with all His spirit children)
The question of “If God sinner” is too disgusting to think about. The fact that Mormons even imply this is horrendous beyond measure.
Clyde6070, It’s a topic I’ve done a bit of study on actually. I’d love to continue the conversation, but not here (again, wildly off topic). If you’d like I’ll see if the mod can send you my e-mail.
Mike R, I don’t know if this will be as shocking a revelation as the fact that I’m a Mormon that never prayed about the BOM, but I couldn’t care less about the Lds’ stand on family values and civic serious. I grew up Mormon and I hate my family. I would be raising my daughter the same way I am now no matter what the church had to say on the issue.
I believed when I told Kate “I don’t feel the holiness of God is an issue to take lightly” I stressed how seriously I take the issue. But other than saying I’m reading the scriptures and meditating on the subject I have nothing constructive to add to the conversation, so I haven’t been speaking on it. It’s true that I would fall in with the group that thinks God never sinned. There are also (as Aaron pointed out) Mormon answers to this subject that don’t involve God sinning at all, ever, in all of his history. So like I stated above, I’m reading the scriptures and pondering the question. Not much more to say.
TjayT, I appreciate your being open about certain aspects of your life. I hope you can see
that this thread topic is just part of a much larger error from Mormon prophets, namely that
of the whole doctrine of Almighty God being only an exalted man . I pray God will direct you
as you seek Him. May God bless you and your daughter. Take care .
Just an odd thought on this blog. Maybe we are here as a test to show the effects of a physical body on a glorious mind. This is a probationary period in our own eternal life to gain a physical body and see how we react to it while we are separated from God.
TJayT says:
I’m going wildly off topic here, but since Mormons believe in Creatio Ex Materia (that matter is co-eternal with God and he molded it to create everything else) that would imply God didn’t make time (since he didn’t make space, he just filled it with creations). He can see past, present and future, but would still exist “in time”.
Did God create His own time? Did God create out of nothing His place in the Heavens? How do you come to understand Gods own existence and place of residence, the only option you have is to say God can only exists in neither space or time, a nothingness that you can not explain since matter is not eternal.
In my digging and reading about God and sin I stumbled upon the idea of Imputation of sin and righteousness. If I’m understanding it correctly the Reformed view is that Jesus traded his righteousness to us for our sin. In essence Jesus became sinful without ever committing sin, and righteousness and sin are something that can be bartered between two individuals. Am I misunderstanding the concept?
Solid, Your free to believe that God created everything from nothing, but it’s not what the Lds church has taught. Here’s the FAIR wiki page on the issue. http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormon_view_of_the_creation/Creatio_ex_nihilo
You may also want to go to Lds.Org and search “Ex Nihilo”. It comes up with a few articles that discuss creation and the Mormon belief that God organized the universe, he didn’t create from nothing.
Clyde, why would God need to interview everyone on the planet? Isn’t God’s omniscience clear in the Bible. Have you never read Psalm 139:1-6?
Read the rest of the Psalm and you will find that there is nowhere you can go to escape from God. What’s the point of the LDS system regarding salvation? Did God not create the worlds to test those spirit children willing to obtain bodies so they could possibly return to him in full exaltation and one day become gods in the same way he did? According to Mormonism children are born without an imputed sin nature and are free to choose to be obedient or not. They deny original sin in the Christian sense. Children begin with a clean slate, but we all know that children are not good. They sin (lie, steal, hit, are disobedient) even though they are never taught to do so. In fact they receive correction when they sin, but they commit the same sins again, rarely learning. Everyone born from the seed of man has sinned, and will continue to sin, except for the one man, Jesus (who is called the Christ), because he alone is the Son of God, born without Adam’s imputed sin nature (Romans 5:12-14).
liv4jc,
Just looking for a clarification of your beliefs. Do you believe in original sin or an inherited fallen nature? Because from what I read of your description of the naughty things children do (I have a two year old so I know what your talking about) it sounds more like inherited fallen nature then the idea that they are guilty of Adam’s sin. Am I wrong?
(cont) Mormonism teaches that Adam “transgressed” for a noble purpose: that we may procreate and also know good from evil (and be just like the gods) that we may have the ability to be tested to see if we will live the universal law that even God had to obey, and be obedient to every command and ordinance of his perfectly. If that is true then we all fail. Miserably. What should that tell the thinking Mormon? Game over. All your pre-existence hopes of returning to HF were dashed very soon after getting your body. Why the safety net? Well, first of all it’s because the doctrine of becoming a god through perfect obedience was a later development and doesn’t fit well with the “scriptures”. Unfortunately the scriptures Joseph plagiarized when he wrote the BoM (and before he decided who God is) tell us we need a savior because we’re all born in sin. The Bible and the BoM both display Jesus as the one who pays for sins so we can be redeemed. We shouldn’t get a safety net. It’s a test isn’t it? It’s all about “worthiness”. Isn’t relying on the atonement cheating? Both Christian and LDS doctrine say that Jesus was the obedient savior chosen before the foundation of the world. Your god asked you to come to this earth to take a test he knew you would fail? How does that work? Besides, the LDS Jesus isn’t actually a savior. He just makes salvation possible if you live perfectly. Oh that’s right…we already covered that. Good luck on the LDS Hamster Wheel. I’ll take the Jesus of the Bible. That one that actually saves.
2 Corinthians 5:16-21 is for you TJayT. Take hold of it, read Romans 3 and own it.
T JayT, the bible clearly tells us that we are not responsible for Adam’s sin, but we inherit his sin nature.
And when David cries to God in Psalm 51 for his sin with Bathsheba
David is not saying that his mother sinned in his conception, but that he was a sinner in his mother’s womb , he was a sinner when he was born. In Romans 3:9-19 Paul cites OT texts to prove that every person on earth is a sinner, and that the law shows us that we are accountable to God, not the path to becoming gods by obeying it. Romans 7 lays this principle out in detail. Romans 5 tells us
If Adam’s sin was noble explain Gen 3:22-24.
Liv4jc
I was Thinking about how He might have gained His knowledge of everything. The psalm you noted seems to point to what I was thinking. I read it before but it did not register.
> “T JayT, the bible clearly tells us that we are not responsible for Adam’s sin, but we inherit his sin nature.”
I would actually argue that, while Romans 5 does teach both the imputation of Adam’s sin as well as the inheritance of Adam’s sin, it more clearly teaches the imputation of Adam’s sin:
http://www.theopedia.com/Imputation_of_Adams_sin
http://www.theopedia.com/Original_sin
liv4jc, I’ve never done much study on original sin, so I went and did a little reading. Most of the following information comes from the article “Original Sin” and a misapplied passage by Wayne Jackson posted on ChristianCourier.com
Genesis 8:20-21 indicates human’s sinfulness begins in youth, not at birth. Also see Jeremiah 3:25
Remember Psalm 51:5 is poetic and bound to be filled with bold and imaginative speech. There are a number of non-poetic verses that teaches children are innocent;
A child has to reach a certain level of maturity before they can chose good and evil (Isaiah 7:15-16)
The qualities of little children are models for those wishing to enter the kingdom (Matt 18:3 19-4) and for those in the church (1 Corinthians 14:20)
The human spirit is given by God (Ecclesiastes 12:17, Hebrews 12:9) and must be as pure as the source.
There are a few theories of what he may have ment but the most likely is that he was referring to the fact he was born into a sinful world. It’s also worth noting Judaism doesn’t belive in Original Sin, so the concept would be unknown to David in the first place.
When I read Romans 5:12-14 I read that Adams fall brought death into the world, and even though all must now die those born before the law aren’t held accountable because there wasn’t a law to sin against. Just as Adam brought death to humanity Jesus brings eternal life.
I think anyone that believes in deification (whether that’s Mormon exaltation or traditional theosis) can find joy in Genesis 3:22-24. Adam took the first step toward becoming like God. God sent him on the next step, mortality. That way we could learn to have faith in God and reach a place better than Eden. We’ll reach God’s kingdom and be joint heirswithchrist
*Correction: The scripture quote under “The human spirit is given by God” should read Ecclesiasties 12:7. Also the last three word should read “heirs with christ”. don’t know why the words ran together.