A crusade (of sorts) is moving across Facebook. It is targeting pages that are critical of Mormonism. Who the crusaders are is unknown, but it seems reasonable to suggest that they may be Latter-day Saints.
The crusade is aimed at silencing those who disagree with Mormonism. In a broad sense (and from the perspective of many Mormons), this has some biblical support:
“For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.” (1 Peter 2:15)
The Facebook crusader’s strategy, however, does not involve “doing good,” nor does it seek to expose what some Mormons would call “the ignorance of foolish people.” The Facebook crusade instead is employing oppressive tactics in order to have critical discussion shut down and/or removed from public view.
Though a bit more complicated than I’ll describe here, the program goes something like this: A site critical of Mormonism is identified by the crusaders; this group of people begin a flurry of reporting, flagging the page’s status updates, videos and comments as “hate speech”; Facebook’s automated response sends warnings to the page owners and Admins, removes flagged “offensive” content, and eventually disables (temporarily) the personal accounts of those who receive sufficient warnings.
Trying to look at things from a Mormon perspective, I can acknowledge how some things posted may be reasonably understood as offensive to a Mormon (e.g., a discussion about sex; namely, the physically sexual relationship between Heavenly Father and Mary. In fact, this Mormon teaching is offensive to me, too!). Due to “one or more reports,” Aaron received a Facebook warning at Christmastime related to his audio series on the Virgin Birth:
But most of the things that have been flagged in this crusade (that I am aware of) reflect mere disagreements between Christians and Mormons regarding spiritual issues. For example, this (subsequently flagged) Facebook comment was posted on December 9, 2011 as part of an ongoing conversation:
“God has provided these tools to validate His truth. While there is an element of faith, I’d say that faith is based on things that are unseen, BUT NOT PROVEN false. Science and history have definitively proved the Book of Mormon not to be [of] God. The Bible holds its own.”
Two more examples, these removed by Facebook:
“Which Jesus, Elizabeth? The created brother of satan or the Un-Creator of all things? God?”
“oh! but one last thing Bobbi…how did you check to make sure that the answer to your prayer was truth?”
According to Facebook policy, the use of a person’s name in comments, even in a response to a comment that person may have previously posted, can be construed as “harassment.” That explains Facebook deleting some of the comments, but it does not explain the initial reporting of these conversational comments. Only a crusade designed to itself harass and silence Mormonism’s critics makes sense.
On December 26th a Christian friend received a warning from Facebook for posting a link to Aaron’s video project, God Never Sinned – Do Mormons Agree? Facebook removed the entire post and threatened the owner of the page with possible loss of his Facebook account. Facebook stated that the video link had been reported, and anything that is “hateful, threatening, or obscene” is not allowed. Yet the God Never Sinned video consists entirely of Mormons responding to a question that clarifies their own individual beliefs. Why flag that as hateful?
All of this sounds a bit un-American, or at least unlike the America envisioned by her Founding Fathers, who placed a premium on freedom of speech and the lively, open exchange of ideas. In fact, as others have noted elsewhere, these crusaders on Facebook seem to be following in the footsteps of Mormonism’s founder. When Joseph Smith was confronted with dissident voices in Nauvoo, Illinois, rather than answer them, he did his best to silence them by destroying the newspaper and press that gave the critics a platform.
Yet another aspect of this crusade is equally troubling. Assuming that the crusaders are Mormons, it must be noted that Mormons expend a lot of energy trying to convince the world that they are Christians (that is, followers of Jesus Christ). But their disregard for biblical teaching regarding how to deal with critics demonstrates a different spirit.
The Bible, recognized by Christians to be the very Word of God, does not tell followers of Christ to silence critics by taking away their voices.
The Bible tells us of the benefits of a “soft answer.” It proclaims, “To make an apt answer is a joy to a man, and a word in season, how good it is!” It teaches that the righteous think about how to answer, as opposed to the evil responses of the wicked (Proverbs 15:1, 23, 28)
The apostle Paul talks about “persuading” people of the truth while being “able to answer those” who are mistaken in their spiritual focus. He says, “Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.” (2 Corinthians 5:11-12; Colossians 4:6)
And, of course, there are the familiar instructions for God’s people to “contend” for the faith, be ready to “give a defense” of that faith, while “patiently enduring evil, correcting [spiritual] opponents.” (Jude 3; 1 Peter 3:15; 2 Timothy 2:24-26)
Christians are not supposed to bully those who disagree with them by forcing them into silence. Christians are supposed to answer the objections and persuade opponents by speaking the truth, hoping that the lost and deceived will “come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil.”
This is what the Christians on Facebook (and here on Mormon Coffee) are endeavoring to do. What, then, is the aim of the crusaders?
I have been slightly aware of this since an internet friend and someone who has posted here was a target of this harassment. It’s interesting because in my opinion, this person is one of the most knowledgeable and articulate commentators on Mormonism. I’ve known him to be respectful but firm when interacting with Mormons.
I don’t want to get into idle speculation or conspiracy theories here but is it a coincidence that this is happening as the race for the Republican nomination heats up and two Mormons are candidates?
My guess is what we are dealing with here are modern day Danites, those avenging angels of early Mormonism. Instead of physical attacks on supposed enemies of God’s one true church, these modern day avenging angels use technology, specifically the internet.
For those not familiar with the Danites, here’s a short video presentation.
We need to petition Facebook with the right to face our accusers. I have a feeling that if people knew that their reports to Facebook were known by the person being reported, the number of false accusations would decrease dramatically. We are being cyber-bullied by the Mormons and Facebook is enabling that behavior.
I’m not surprised at this type of behavior by some Mormons . On one hand to be fair to
them there are those who say some very disrespectful things about Mormonism, on the
other hand it seems that too many Mormons simply play the ” persecution card ” and try
to squelch all public dialogue about their religion when one of their “unique ” doctrines
comes up .
Having faced the brunt of this “crusade” over the past few weeks on our Facebook Page, Mormon & LDS Facts, what astounds me is that their system is so flawed, that many of the warnings are just automated. The problem with this, is that when an “arbitrator” gets the information, you may have so many “warnings” that your account is disabled and you are put on suspension for a time. Then, if more come (whether justified or not) they can add up and get your account removed. The latter never happened to us, but because of the threat hanging over us, we disabled our own page and started a new one, that was attacked again. Our old page was two years old, and had thousands of posts and comments, and their was no way we could go through and clean up any “perceived” violations, (people using other people’s names, etc) which can be viewed as “harassment”.
On our new page, we were forced to make new “rules”. We no longer allow anyone else to post topics or links, and limit comments. We have started a chat room, where some can go, but it’s really not the same. (That was attacked too, and we had to ban all Mormons from it because of it). Some tips for all that I’ve learned over the last few weeks:
*Do not address strangers by name.
*Do not allow FB to automatically “tag” anyone. If they are “tagged” there is a rule in FB that you must have their permission FIRST. Otherwise, they can use the “harassment” option, and get you a violation.
*We have put “disclaimers” up with some posts, like this:
Disclaimer: This historical quote and 3rd party link is shared for educational and informational purposes only. This post is not intended to attack any individual
individual or group and, according to our understanding, complies with Facebook’s community standards. – The Admin Team
*We are closely monitoring all who post, and have a strict policy of banning anyone who even appears to be a troll, or a known crusader. The problem with this, is that anyone can come to the page, and not “like” it, and still “flag” comments.
*The page creators and Admins are responsible for all content, so even if YOU don’t make a comment, YOU may be held responsible and get a violation for someone that comes to your page and makes a comment.
*The “crusaders” have taken to making duplicate pages now, with the intention of diverting traffic from the pages critical of Mormonism. There is an option to report them, and we have used this, and are waiting to see what FB does.
These are a few that I can think of quickly. They have not been able to use their tactics on the “new” page, because of these precautions, but they have succeeded in having us start over, going from a page with thousands of people to literally starting over.
We know that there is a concerted effort to bring down as many “critical” pages as they can. FB is hard to contact, so I will leave a link that will get you in direct contact with an “arbitrator”. But be warned, if your account is in good standing, you will get an “automated” message, and you will have to re-contact them again to get a response. Here is the address:
The Facebook Team < [email protected] >
What has come out of this for me, is a determination to change the way I disseminate information on FB. I have acquired two web addresses, a dot.com and a dot. org and will be setting up a discussion forum on them, which will be linked to the FB page.
I enjoyed the way the old FB page was set up, and commenting at length to Mormons and other visitors about Mormonism. But given these attacks, we have been forced to evolve to a system where our freedom of speech and flow of information is not impeded by those who have everything to hide, and have no ethics when it comes to the means by which they are attempting to silence their critics.
Unfortunately, this may soon be turned against the very people that have instigated these tactics. I do not advocate using these unethical tactics against anyone, and have hope that FB will initiate a system to “catch” those who are reporting violations en mass, and abusing the privilege. But with literally billions of people on FB now, it may not come anytime soon. Until then, our best defense is to be prepared, and instigate procedures to nip these tactics in the bud. _johnny stephenson, Mormon&LDSFacts
An afterthought. Perhaps a concerted effort to have Facebook create an option to BLOCK individuals from being able to even see a page (like with personal accounts) may help. As it stands, if you BAN someone, they can still SEE the page, and FLAG comments. Perhaps enough complaints will have FB look into this option. Then these repeat offenders will have to be forced to make “fake” profiles, which can legitimately reported to FB. I encourage all to go to FB with any concerns, and suggestions, especially the option to absolutely “block” anyone that wants to troll pages. After all, these people do not have to view the page, they can ignore it.
This will not stop critics of Mormonism. It will only make those of us, called to this work, more determined to get the message out. As one Mormon put it, trying to “justify” a duplicate creation of our FB page:
“Some look at the kid with a big stick heading towards a Beehive and think “that boy has got to be the biggest fool” when in reality it sometimes takes courage and kahonas to walk up to a nest of swarming bees and beat their cozy little nest to awaken the reality that the are not welcomed where they decided to hang out. ~~~ Timothy”
I would remind any that have such thoughts that this is what Joe Smith thought when he gave the order to destroy the Nauvoo Expositor. That didn’t work out too well for him. The truth will out, and though William Law’s paper was removed for a time, it didn’t stop the truth from being known. This “crusade” will likewise be ineffectual and may backfire as Smith’s did. Hitting a ‘beehive’ with a stick is not always the smartest thing to do.
I was personally targeted by the mormons and timed out for a couple of days a week before Christmas by facebook. When I finally was able to FIND a vehicle by which to appeal, it was pretty worthless. The replies were basically they can’t go back and review things and here is a link to our standards, etc. I don’t anticipate facebook changing things any time soon. To allow appeals in a timely manner will require people and organization – those things cost money and it is cheaper to stick to the automated system.
One of the “crusaders” against the critics of Mormonism, has spoken out on his blog about Sharon’s article. In his blog, he states:
“Therefore, if Lindbloom and critics of the Latter-day Saints want to cry foul that their First Amendment right to free speech is being denied, they are the greater perpetrators in denying Latter-day Saints to post, publish, comment, and criticize on the very same Facebook Pages that they are complaining about being shut down. This is a classical case of special pleading”. (Timothy)
But when someone went to this “crusaders” FB page, here is how the conversation went:
Visitor: It’s not OK to have a differing view here? Pro Mormonism only?
Biblical Mormonism: “That is not the issue here. It is NOT okay to promote known An**-Mormon propaganda or rhetoric. Neither is it okay to publish links here to known a**i-Mormon sites. There are plenty of those types of pages. This page is for those who want to cut past the arguments and want to engage in decent convercation [spelling incorrect] without the threat of being mocked or ridiculed. If you do not like that answer THEN YOU ARE WELCOME TO LEAVE.
Visitor: Admin, it is okay to ask questions and express views about how Mormonism differs from Biblical Christianity?
Biblical Mormonism: “NO IT’S NOT OK”. This is not for counter-cult ministry groups to come and post their antagonistic and An**-Mormon rhetoric and propaganda. (blah, blah, blah…)
And then,, “IF YOU FEEL YOU CAN’T DISCUSS THINGS ON COMMON GROUND,… THIS IS NOT THE PAGE FOR YOU TO BE HANGING OUT ON”
It seems it’s ok for Mormons to set ground rules for their pages, but it’s not for Christians to do the same.
It’s NOT OK for Christians to express differing views, because they are all labeled “AN**-Mormon” and they will not
be allowed on their page. This is hypocrisy folks, pure and simple. If anyone needs the screenshots, I’ll be happy to oblige. Oh, and here is “Timothy” voicing his REAL agenda:
“It appears that M&LDS Facts is no longer on line” Good, now we should focus on reporting” [another Ministry Group].
Instead of manning up to defend Mormonism, we see the real tactics of these “crusaders”… trying to silence the critics by any means they can. _johnny
I’m mormon and I think it’s wrong for anyone to be silenced because of there views. I don’t care if it’s Grindael, Thomas Monson or the KKK. If you don’t like there views then start your own page and speak out. Don’t take the cowards way out and silence them. Shame on anyone that does this.
Well, perhaps those of you who are Mormon should speak up against your brethren and sisters and get then to get thicker skin instead of abusing the ‘abuse’ button
The problem, TJayT, is that these people DID start their own pages. But at best got 50-100 people. Our page had almost 2000 and we were getting 13,000 views a WEEK. It is jealously and spite, pure and simple. Now, when we first started our page, a group of Mormons started another page called “Real Mormon & LDS Facts” and we didn’t have a problem with them. We traded a few barbs in the beginning, but we let them be. Instead of letting us be, (not the “real” page, they had nothing to do with this) they cannot stand the fact that we are actually posting FACTS about Mormonism. These “Crusaders” say that we didn’t allow Mormons to freely express themselves, but we did. We had a contributor to FAIR, that posted on our page on a consistent basis FROM THE BEGINNING, and was still there when they began attacking our Page. He was not banned, nor his content deleted, edited or removed. I can get plenty of screen shots to back this up. Those that were removed, were trolls, belligerent, or broke the page rules. Many were just there to attack us and name call. These “Crusaders” are liars, and throwing a temper tantrum because they don’t want us to broadcast the truth. They post comments on public pages and we share them, and they complain that we are infringing on their rights, but FB states that if you post on a PUBLIC Page, it’s public domain. But they had no qualms about posting things from my PRIVATE WALL (which one of my “friends” gave to them without my permission – now an “ex-friend”). Again, the hypocrisy here, is astounding. _johnny
I’m with VWBrown…
Any of our LDS friends here want to start a “Mormons Against A**i-Speech Mormons” FB page?
This may be simpler than a “Christians and Mormons Against A**i-Speech Mormons”. I understand if the LDS dislike the implication of difference between Christians and Mormons in the title. I also understand that it might be a bit strange to work with Bible Christians for Bible Christians’ speech rights when it is directly connected to the criticism of your preferred religious organization. However, this is about free speech. LDS speak of freedom of religion; why not freedom of speech? Especially if my religion says to “contend earnestly” for the gospel? Granted, I wouldn’t work with the KKK or others who hate the person, but Christians in their right mind and heart don’t hate the person, just the falsehood.
“Bible Christians and Book of Mormon Christians (Mormons) against A**i-Speech Mormons” may be a bit much and I don’t know how the Christians would feel about the implied similitude. Maybe just the “Mormons Against A***-Speech Mormons” and the Bible Christians can help without inclusion in the title. Maybe put a “t” before their names or “nonmo-(name)” to indicate they are not Mormon but supporters of the page.
But we could use the page to report incidents, repost this article and the comments here, and more (like brainstorming an automated system-friendly solution). Maybe FB would pay more attention to a FB page with several thousand people giving evidence and pushing for an automated system-friendly fix.
Want to see if anyone wants to flag that page???
If I get invited into the grand conspiracy I’ll make sure to expose them. But I don’t facebook and the few Lds friends I have wouldn’t be interested in these tactics. Still I’ll make an effort if I get the chance.
“The problem, TJayT, is that these people DID start their own pages.”
Then double shame on them. Does that mean it’s known who these people are? Is there a way to file a complaint with facebook?
“We had a contributor to FAIR, that posted on our page on a consistent basis FROM THE BEGINNING… Those that were removed, were trolls, belligerent, or broke the page rules”
That’s how it should be. It’s a shame that we have trolls and name callers on both sides. It doesn’t help our positions at all.
These “Crusaders” are liars, and throwing a temper tantrum because they don’t want us to broadcast the truth.”
I know that you and I will never agree on theology, but I have come to have a great respect for you and everyone else on this site. Your voice shouldn’t be silenced. Again, shame on anyone doing this, good intentions or not.
These people are zealots and of the lowest possible character and morals. They can’t handle the truth because it exposes Mormonism and disrupts the tranquility of the fantasy world they live in. This is so typical Mormon. Haven’t these same types attacked Quinn and Palmer? Look what they do to people who try to leave the Mormon church. They try to stalk and harass them into submission. These are the modern version of the Danites and my guess is that we could probably get a diagnosis of some sort of mental disorder. They are of the same type of mentality that perpetrated the Mountain Meadows massacre. Make no mistake these modern day technological Danites are bullies of the first order. Their goal is not just to destroy your efforts on facebook but to destroy you personally; your credibility and effectiveness.
I think we should start a fb page called the “Facebook Danites” or the “Internet Danites”. We could post the videos and articles regarding the original Danites and then link to these modern day assassins.
Of all of the different types of Mormons that are out there, these people are the most dangerous. They magnify all of the worst traits of the Mormon culture and religion. They are despicable.
OK here’s the thing. If Mormonism is the restored Gospel and the only truth, why not defend it? Why not just suck up all the embarrassing stuff that has come from LDS prophets and say “Yes! It came from a prophet of God and we defend it!” If LDS doctrines and teachings are the ONLY truth then why aren’t these people shouting it out to the world instead of trying to hide it? All I see are Mormons embarrassed by their doctrine, or Mormons who have never heard of these doctrines so they think others are making it up. Mormons need to do some research. I was a Mormon for 40 years and I was absolutely clueless! If the LDS church was actually honest, all LDS would know this stuff and the debate wouldn’t be over whether or not this is doctrine, but whether or not LDS prophets are true prophets of God. How sad that the Mormon religion is so weak that Mormons have to go to a Facebook page and do all they can to have it silenced. What a sad bunch. One other thing, aren’t Mormons aunt ty Christian? I have seen the LDS on this site trash sacred Christian doctrines including the Holy Trinity, yet this seems to be their “right” as Mormons. What if Christians ran around calling Mormons aunt ty Christian, what then? I have not seen one Christian on this site hide from any Christian doctrine, but I have seen the defending of them, especially the Holy Trinity. Too bad some Mormons can’t defend their faith.
In light of our current discussion, I found this posting at the top of a blog dealing with Mormonism quite interesting:
“To the visiting goons from the Mormon Secret Police: This page is protected by US Copyright Law, Title 17, Section 107, which states: “…the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright…” However as the Mormon Church is an enemy to free speech & to freedom & to democracy, it is not surprising that you may act to delete this page.”
We all know about the different classifications of types of Mormons from “social Mormons”, to “Jack Mormons”, to “liberal Mormons”, to “TBMs”, to “new order Mormons”, but there is a strain of zealotry within Mormonism that I would identify as “fascist Mormons”. These aren’t folks who are content to defend Mormonism but they are people who are bent on destroying anyone who would dare question Mormonism.
The author of the above cited quote finishes up his posting by saying:
“How do churches which are freedom loving operate? They embrace democracy. They embrace debate. They know the value of such things. They know that strength comes from diversity. But a cult acts to keep you from thinking, from speaking your mind. The act of speaking is directly linked to our ability to think & reason. If we cannot speak (or write), then our ability to think is quelled.”
That is a characteristic, sadly, of Mormonism and one the zealots take to an extreme and in so doing earn the label “fascist Mormons”.
It would be nice if there were some self monitoring TJayT. And no there is no mechanism that I’ve been able to find to cite specific individual other than filing abuse claims against them. That opens things up to a vicious cycle.
Let me put an additional item out there for LDS –
Your own article of faith states :”We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”
Do you find it hypocritical to have missionaries and facebook pages trying to convert Christians to your beliefs while attempting to deny Christians the same rights and privileges within the same forum as stated within your own articles of faith?
I appreciate greatly what Sharon has written, but I will be dealing with this on my blog “Mormonite Musings”. It appears that Mr. Berman took down his “rebuttal” to Sharon’s article, (no surprise there), because when it all comes out with the screen shots, we will stand by what we said, and will show who has been deceptive here. Mr. Berman is now whining on another FB page he “Admins” on, claiming,
” Ask yourself, are they wrong? Are they even justified? They may claim that they are justified, but think about it. How could one individual make such a coordinated attack if he is not always on the computer? They don’t stop to think about these things. Furthermore, I have evidence of the leader of this pack is where he blamed a particular individual and then confessed to someone else, when questioned as to why the page was no longer available, that he and the other admins had “unpublished the page” and it not having been removed by facebook. They lie to suit their needs in order to persecute and harass particular individuals because they have no other leg to stand on.”
Unfortunately, he is misrepresenting the FACTS, because we NEVER said that FACEBOOK shut our page down, it was an individual Admin’s page that got shut down for 3 days, but they are back up and running. (I have all the screen shots to prove this). Mr. Berman, who instigated the blog attacks against us (for an article about Emma Smith) and became a ringleader of the “Crusaders” is now crying “persecution”. It’s not persecution to want to clear your name of false charges, hate attacks, and slander. Mr. Berman rushed to judgement before he saw my comments that clarified the Emma Smith post, and has now reaped
the whirlwind. Actually Mr. Berman doesn’t realize that we have LOTS of people on computers that e-mail us information about what they find, just like he gets it. It’s called “instant messaging” and perhaps he should look that up. We have thousands of people who have liked our page, and are now interested in this story, and have been emailing us with lots of information about those who have made their boasting comments about how they are in league to “take down” sites critical of Mormonism.
Like I said above, many people are concerned, and some angry, and other Ministry’s are considering how to defend themselves against these unwarranted attacks. When you smack a beehive, you had better be prepared to deal with all the angry bees that might come after you. Sometimes “kahonas” are not enough to save you from getting hoisted with your own petard.
Thank you TJayT for the comments. As all who have dealt with me here over the last few years know, I quote Mormon doctrine and it’s leaders accurately, and will have a fair discussion with anyone. Mr. Berman can whine all he wants about “special pleading”, but if he was a person with an honest desire to debate the issues, he would have and could have had a voice on our page. He should ask the guy on whose page he Admin’s on, who was NEVER banned or censored by us for over a year.
The truth speaks for itself. Mr. Berman had best be prepared to deal with it. _johnny
Wow Kate did you ever hit the nail on the head with your statement ! One of the biggest reasons
why Mormonism caught my attention many years ago was that it was so reluctant ( sneaky?) to
admit to some of the doctrinal offerings of it’s prophets and apostles. Locking up documents
in the First Presidency vault and not allowing full access to documents in it’s archives is the
m.o. of these supposed hand picked modern -day apostles of Jesus . In 30 years now I’ve heard
a load of rationalizing on all this behavior from too many Mormons, and thru it all I’ve
learned a lot about how those who follow false prophets reason . This whole episode with
Face Book is not surprising at all, there’s been too many people warned about the true teachings
of Mormonism, and there’s also been far to many Mormons leave their prophets for this
“threat” to go un challenged on the internet, and from Grindael and others we get a glimpse of
how some Mormon “apologists” are attempting to stop it. All of us here know that the Mormon
people are worth reaching for Jesus , so all this foolishness that is being thrown in our way can’t
thwart our effort to see them set free in Jesus . This is a spiritual fight for sure—Acts 26:16-18
This is just one of the problems that I see with facebook. I have greatly curtailed my use of facebook due to a number of reasons similar to this. When you post something on facebook you are putting something on someone else’s website – and they make the rules and control the conversation (if they want to). I realize that even Mormon Coffee has similar rules, however, facebook in their actions often seems to display a bias against viewpoints that I would support, while upholding viewpoints with which I disagree. Yes, they seem to have an automated system that these Mormons who cannot tolerate a difference of opinion are exploiting, but in reality facebook needs to display more intelligence in their blocking activities, and more tolerance in allowing discussion and varying viewpoints, not just display a knee-jerk “ban them!” There will always be people in differing groups who lack common courtesy and will exploit a system such as facebook to an effort to control the conversation and block any dissent from what they believe is correct. Ultimately, no matter who is using such tactics, it is wrong to let them “win.” Such people have no confidence in their message and are not willing to engage ideas, but instead hide behind flawed interactive tools such as facebook to “control the message.” As it turns out, facebook is often not really a place you can have any real conversations.
Ah ha, I have noticed no Mormon and LDS facts for probably a week or two now and now I see why. I agree Kate, the LDS chruch is deceptive as a whole and cannot withstand scrutiny. Unfortunately the people in the LDS system are either too ignorant to ask (that was me when I was a Mormon) or if they do dare to ask they are not given the truth. Its sad all the way around. One of my friends Rob Sivulka posted an article the other day about a pastor in Utah who finally caved to the spiritual attacks and darkness in Utah and left the ministry there to return to Ohio. The few Mormon friends I have from my college days never comment on anything I post that has to …
…do with Morminism vs Biblical Christainity. I would welcome theri input or any defense they would care to put up. Heck, I would welcome them coming right out and asking why I left the church. Its very frustrating and now to see that people are making a concerted effort to allow people to speak the truth on facebook (and they are quite possibly LDS) is even more frustrating and just highlights the craziness of the LDS system. Praise the Lord for all those in Utah and other places that keep the faith and minister to Mormon in spite of this.
Great phrase, “the Mormon system”, because that’s what the LDS church is. Notice that the Mormon testimony emphasizes the Mormon church and those who claim to be prophets and the BoM.
Christians bear their testimony about Jesus Christ and the placing of their trust in His “work” which provides them with eternal life. In Mormonism, it’s the religious system, worked right it’s claimed, that is suppose to provide the Mormon males with deification. When this system is exposed for what it is, the forces of darkness will explode in rage trying to silence those (who are exposing it).
The apostle Paul rightly pointed out in the sixth chapter of his letter to the Ephesians that we don’t wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities and dark forces in the heavenly places. The Mormon church is a manifestation of those dark forces. The agents of this deception are diabolical in their attempts to hide the truth about Mormonism. It’s an insidious system that convinces men that they can become gods and opposes God by teaching that there are countless “gods” in the universe.
Jesus is the truth and He is the way. It is through Him alone that we attain to eternal life. No religious system with it’s rituals and legalistic structure can usurp God’s plan. It doesn’t matter how sincere and devoted someone is to a religious structure. While attempting to live a moral live is commendable, it won’t save anyone. Knowing the authentic Christ, not a counterfeit, is the pathway to the Father.
We can only hope that Mormons will turn away from their false religious system with their false prophets and turn to the living God who alone can provide eternal life.
“When this system is exposed for what it is, the forces of darkness will explode in rage trying to silence those (who are exposing it).” ~ falcon
A good reminder that this is a spiritual battle and that darkness hates the light. Always remember to put on the full armor of God.
This situation makes me think of how Tim Tebow has responded to his critics with grace. It seems these Mormons could learn something from his example.
From what I can ascertain, Mormonism is made up of divergent groups and this guy doing the attacking would be considered an embarrassment by many in the Mormon community. My guess is that he’s not the type of guy many Mormons would be interested in defending.
Mike R. is always quick to point out that there are a lot of decent folks caught in Mormonism. While misguided by their religion, at their core they wouldn’t want to associate with this particular pack.
As an additional comment, my observation is that Mormonism varies depending on geographic location.
Embarrassment? You have no idea Falcon. To see who this guy REALLY is, please take a look at this link from Mormon Discussions. Apparently this isn’t his first “Crusade”. Warning: The content of this link is EXTREMELY GRAPHIC. _johnny
Grindael – Wow, I know what you guys are going through. I’m being bullied on Facebook for making the statement that there are similarities between islam and mormonism. I have a guy who calls himself an anti-jihadist, who yells about free speech giving me a lot of grief for one sentence. Believe it or not, he was the one who posted the link to this blog himself! How’s that for hypocrisy?
The tactics the mormons are using to shut the page down are the same as the ones the muslims use against the Christians who speak out against them.
I checked it out. Do the Mormons really want to claim this guy? If I didn’t know better, I’d say he must be a plant to undermine Mormonism and give it a bad name. Does he “confess” this stuff when he has his interview to get his temple recommend. I don’t think many Mormons would want to claim this guy. He has issues, believe me.
The attacks haven’t let up. At least one page witnessing to mormons is down and I’ve even had another warning against me.
The fact is Falcon, we were minding our own business on FACTS. We were not harassing anyone. They came to OUR Page. Timothy Berman was banned for calling people names, a year ago. He has obviously held a grudge, for I have three or four of his blog articles where he denigrates us. He then posted this personally about me and others, (seems he can’t get the pornographic imagery out of his mind):
“Why would an active Apostate Anti-Mormon perpetuate a lie? The answer is simple, they despise the truth… and are servants of the adversary to prevent people from knowing the truth. They are like the Serpent in the Garden of Eden who beguiled Eve by copulating lies with truths. Lee Griener and her partners over at the Facebook Page Mormon & LDS Facts posted an intentionally false statement.”
Since this is a falsehood, and he has slandered our names personally, I will be making sure that all of what he did is documented, and that everyone knows all about this guy. Perhaps others will be able to see him coming, and avoid him.
Again, I would stress, that the Majority of Mormons are NOT trolls. We have had some great conversations with them. Usually, they will move on after awhile, or stick around and try and counter our claims. When they did so in a decent manner, they were allowed to stay. There is nothing decent in many of these “Crusaders” manners. They take after their lying leader, Joseph Smith, to try and suppress, destroy, and silence the voices of anyone critical of their views, by any means possible, even illegally, as was done to Mormon Discussions (which did what we did, took their board off line for awhile to clear it up). One good thing has come out of this, a recently baptized Mormon came to our NEW page, saw them in action, and questioned their faith. They are in the process of leaving the Church. We have the truth on our side, and anyone who sees the REAL FACTS, will know it. I’m going to make sure of that. _johnny
These guys have to be the bottom feeders within the Mormon system. I can’t imagine a priesthood holder, temple recommend holder and someone who is working diligently to reach deification behaving in this manner. I mean these guys are really holy and righteous, right?
I’m reminded of the series of articles that Andy Watson did a couple of years ago for MC about the BoA. One of the things that Andy pointed out was the facsimile of the Mormon god, a picture of him sitting on his throne, that Joseph Smith included in his “translation”. As it turns out it was a picture of an Egyptian fertility god exposing himself. So maybe somewhere in Mormonism there is a place for lewd, pornographic type pictures and silicious, sexually explicit prose.
We know that Joseph Smith was guilty of adultery, fornication and of being a misogynist. This is all well documented. It’s not an unwarranted attack on the character of the Mormon founder. With an example like this, it’s easy to see where these modern day Mormons take their lead.