In a discussion with an older Mormon missionary, Sister G learned that I had prayerfully read the Book of Mormon but had not found it to be the word of God. In her effort to discover what obstacle stood between me and Mormonism, we talked about a lot of different doctrinal issues. We discussed contradictions between the Bible and the Book of Mormon, the doctrine of God, the biblical tests of a true prophet, the authority of Scripture, and the Mormon law of eternal progression. To everything Sister G said I found myself responding with, “But the Bible says…” After about half an hour of this, Sister G grew frustrated and told me, “I know what your problem is. You have to forget the Bible.”
Ever since that long-ago encounter with Sister G I have found, in talking with Mormons, that most hold the same attitude towards the Bible–though this attitude is expressed in different ways and in varying degrees.
According to the LDS Church’s creed, the Articles of Faith, Mormons “believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly” (Article 8), but Mormon leaders don’t believe (or teach) that it has been translated (or transmitted) correctly. Sister G’s conviction that we need to “forget the Bible” reflected what she had been taught as a Mormon; namely, that only a fool thinks the Bible alone, without clarification and correction from Mormonism’s modern scriptures and prophets, accurately reflects God’s truth (2 Nephi 29:6). In the words of Mormonism’s tenth prophet and president Joseph Fielding Smith, “Guided by the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Spirit of the Lord, it is not difficult for one to discern the errors in the Bible” (Doctrines of Salvation 3:191).
Given this prevalent attitude within Mormonism, I did a double-take when I read that Mormon Bishop David Kenley of Pennsylvania told a Lancaster Online journalist that “Mormons ‘wholeheartedly embrace’ the Bible.” In an article titled, “Mormon Moment: Defending the Faith,” Mr. Kenley explained that it is “particularly painful” when Mormonism is regarded as non-Christian “because Mormons are ‘living their lives emulating Jesus Christ in every way they can.’”
One way Mormons do not emulate Jesus is in their view of biblical scripture–because Jesus actually did wholeheartedly embrace the Bible (at that time, the Old Testament).
“Jesus believed that the Old Testament was divinely inspired, the veritable Word of God. He said, ‘The Scripture cannot be broken’ (John 10:35). He referred to Scripture as ‘the commandment of God’ (Matthew 15:3) and as the ‘Word of God’ (Matthew 15:6). He also indicated that it was indestructible: ‘Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished’ (Matthew 5:18).
“When dealing with the people of his day, whether it was with the disciples or religious rulers, Jesus constantly referred to the Old Testament: ‘Have you not read that which was spoken to you by God?’ (Matthew 22:31); ‘Yea; and have you never read, “Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babes thou has prepared praise for thyself”?’ (Matthew 21:16, citing Psalm 8:2); and ‘Have you not read what David did?’ (Matthew 12:3). Examples could be multiplied to demonstrate that Jesus was conversant with the Old Testament and its content. He quoted from it often and he trusted it totally. “ (Josh McDowell Ministry)
Conversely, Mormons are taught that the Bible “passed through generations of copyists, translators, and corrupt religionists who tampered with the text” (Ezra Taft Benson, Ensign, October 2011, 55).
An older (but never repudiated) statement by LDS apostle Orson Pratt explained the effect from these “generations” of corrupt religionists tampering with the biblical text. Asking the question, “Can we rely upon [the Bible] in its present known corrupted state, as being a faithful record of God’s word?” Mr. Pratt first rehearsed a laundry list stating that portions of the Bible had been “lost…manipulated, changed and corrupted,” then answered the question:
“…who, in his right mind, could, for one moment suppose the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide? Who knows that even one verse of the Bible has escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original? (Divine Authenticity of Book of Mormon, “The Bible and tradition, without further revelation, an insufficient guide,” 47)
This doesn’t sound like Mormons are taught to “wholeheartedly embrace” the Bible.
The current LDS prophet and president, Thomas Monson, expressed his own attitude toward the Bible in a letter written by the First Presidency and sent to the Church in 1992. The letter said in part,
“The Bible, as it has been transmitted over the centuries, has suffered the loss of many plain and precious parts… Many versions of the Bible are available today. Unfortunately, no original manuscripts of any portion of the Bible are available for comparison to determine the most accurate version. However, the Lord has revealed clearly the doctrines of the gospel in these latter days. The most reliable way to measure the accuracy of any biblical passage is not by comparing different texts, but by comparison with the Book of Mormon and modern-day revelations.” (Presidents Ezra Taft Benson, Gordon B. Hinckley, and Thomas Monson, “Letter Reaffirms use of King James Version Bible,” Church News, June 20, 1992, 3)
Again, wholehearted embracement of the Bible is not a reasonable expectation when Mormons are taught that the text has been corrupted and cannot be trusted except where it might agree with “the Book of Mormon and modern-day revelations.”
Christian theologian J.I. Packer once said, “If I were the devil, one of my first aims would be to stop folk from digging into the Bible… I should do all I could to surround it with the spiritual equivalent of pits, thorns, hedges, and man traps to frighten people off.”
This is exactly what Mormonism has done. Insisting that people cannot safely “rely on the dead letter of the Bible,” LDS leaders have led people away from the truth that God Himself has given us: “the word of God is living and active” (Hebrews 4:12. The “dead letter” quote is Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 1:97).
If Mormons were to dig into the Bible, they would discover that the Word of God is not only living and active, but it is “sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from His sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:12-13). With that discovery, we creatures realize that we are all hopelessly lost because of our sin and rebellion against Holy God. And with that realization, we fall on our knees to plead for God’s mercy. And when God answers our prayers, we rise from our knees as new creations, alive in Christ and filled with hope.
No wonder the devil does all he can to keep us from truly embracing the Bible with our whole hearts.
The first thing that false prophets do, is try and convince people that they can’t rely on the Bible. Just think about it. That one strategy alone lays the foundation for all of the bizarre, contrived and heretical streams of thought that come from cultic religions.
Convince people that the Bible is not a reliable guide to understanding God’s total revelation and a false prophet has a ticket to steal.
Here’s the interesting thing for me however. Why don’t Mormons actually look into the matter regarding the reliability of the Scriptural text? If they ever do get around to it, they align themselves with atheists authors who have their own particular agenda to promote.
Just think what someone can conjure-up if they don’t have to use the Bible as an authoritative guide. They can simply operate by any idea that passes through their mind.
Revelation becomes more reliable than the Biblical text in Mormonism. And think about it, how reliable is Mormon revelation? It’s a total mess and yet Mormons come up with all of these lame reasons for disregarding the Bible and at the same time have to live with Adam-God, Blood atonement, polygamy and the denial of blacks in the priesthood. That’s just a sampling. A top forty of Mormon one hit revelation wonders could be formulated with little difficulty.
I remember some years ago being exposed to the “name it claim it” ideas. I went to the Bible and couldn’t find these ideas there. It was obvious that these concepts and accompanying techniques were someone’s “good” idea. Further examination showed that the ideas were heavily linked to the human potential movement. In fact a secular form of it was promoted in the book “The Secret” endorsed by Oprah.
Just think of what a person could do if they didn’t have to mess around with the Bible? First of all they could develop their own scripture based on their own personal revelation from God. Actually this is done quite often as “prophets” unrestrained by any standard revelation like the Bible, can go into a free-flow mode and come up with all sorts of creative ideas.
Actually there are even people who are pretty much down the line with the basic doctrines of Christianity that enjoy creative revelation.
Here’s one of my favorite false prophets that had a considerable influence on Joseph Smith.
“Swedenborg had a prolific career as an inventor and scientist. In 1741, at the age of fifty-three, he entered into a spiritual phase in which he eventually began to experience dreams and visions beginning on Easter weekend April 6, 1744. This culminated in a spiritual awakening, whereupon he claimed he was appointed by the Lord to write a heavenly doctrine to reform Christianity. He claimed that the Lord had opened his spiritual eyes, so that from then on he could freely visit heaven and hell, and talk with angels, demons and other spirits.”
Alright! What a guy.
Unrestrained by a traditional of view of the Bible, the writings of the Church Fathers and the traditions of the Church, an individual who morphs into a prophet of sorts is able to free his spirit and climb to a higher level of spiritual insight and understanding. The wonderful thing is that all of these visions and communications with the spirit world give a new and progressive view of spiritual matters.
The article quoted this
This is so far from the truth it is not funny. How many times have I said to LDS on this blog, Where is the Love of Jesus you talk about? LDS are not showing it and have no idea what it is. If they dodge our questions, Tell us they have the answers yet will not share with us, or say, keep looking, that simply is not showing the love of Christ. Thats like when the Bible says, Dont just say to you neighbor, Be warm and filled and be on your way.
When the Mormons can and do finally say, look, I see you study Mormonism, I really believe you desire to know the truth, I know what your missing and why, I have been in your shoes before not knowing, let me expound to you the way more accurately then I will believe they are showing love. But until then if all the LDS can do is mimic the Fred’s and Clydes and say, Umm, Ummm, I think your wrong, Umm, I, Ummm, let me me say, I umm, your wrong, thats was easy, the answers are their if you look. How was that? was that a good impression of Fred?
Thats all we get is babble, not love of Christ. Show me the Love and I will take you seriously.
Just think of all of the truth that would be revealed to Christians if they put the Bible aside and started following modern day prophets? The Bible is a real impediment to revealed truth especially in these latter days, isn’t it?
There’s new revealed scripture, we are told, and it’s contained in the words and writings of the Mormon prophets. The problem that we run into however, is that the utterances and writings of these next new thing type Mormon prophets, keeps unraveling.
When push comes to shove about all that Mormons can offer in terms of testing the truth is that very little if any proclamations by their former prophets are true. The irony seems to be lost on Mormons since on the one hand the utterances of the prophets are as good as scripture but on the other hand most of what they proclaim is just their opinion.
So where do Mormons turn for their standard of proof as to the truth of modern day revelation. Well the BoM is problematic in that it’s been weighed in the balance and found to be false. The BoA is beyond a joke and the D&C is a patch work of count doesn’t count proclamations.
Consistency and reliability doesn’t seem to be a real necessity to the average rank and file Mormon. At the end of the day the test of truth in Mormonism comes down to that the individual Mormon wants to believe it.
Instead of repeating conspiracy theories and half-baked Mormon Bible folklore, it would be a good idea for Mormons to actually study the Bible especially the history of the Scriptures.
“…because Mormons are ‘living their lives emulating Jesus Christ in every way they can.”
And to that I say, big deal!
Anyone would do well to emulate Jesus in every way they can, but that doesn’t mean they are saved for eternal life.
As far as Mormons are concerned, Jesus isn’t any better than a man who is working his way to becoming a god. We know that the Mormon god was a sinful man who through obedience to the Mormon gospel principles became a god like so many men before him.
So where does that leave the Mormon Jesus? Was he a sinful man also just like his sinful Mormon heavenly father before him? Doesn’t seem much to emulate does it?
This is where these false religious groups like Mormonism go careening off the road and into the ditch of lost souls.
Mormons can’t be saved if they don’t know who Jesus is regardless of what kind of emulation they suppose they are doing in their lives. An atheist can emulate Jesus and an atheist is certainly not saved.
Mormons have a view of the Bible much like that of the atheists whose quotes regarding the Bible I’m sure we will be treated to shortly by our Mormon posters.
In Mormonism, Jesus is little better than a good example to follow.
To Mormons, He is not God incarnate who gave His life that those who put their faith totally in Him will be saved. To a Christian, faith in Jesus results in a desire and willingness to follow Him and conform their lives to God’s behavioral expectations. Mormons have a gospel that is totally flipped on its head. They believe that if they do enough Jesus will cover the balance of their falling short. But that’s the false gospel of Mormonism with its false god.
I find this statement telling fromthe current prophet –
“Unfortunately, no original manuscripts of any portion of the Bible are available for comparison to determine the most accurate version. ”
Ok, there is no origional manuscript of the bom available for comparison except for the handwritten copy once removed from the ‘golden plates’. Has that stopped the mormon church from editing the document at will? The only mormon standard work we are reported to have the origional manuscript for is the Book of Abraham – and we all know how accurately Smith translate that documents.
However, an honest mormon would investigate the work done by biblical scholars going over the thousands of extant manuscripts and cataloging the variants in the New Testment and see that there are no gaps involved. Further, just recently the announcements of some of the oldest manuscripts, one, the Gospel of Mark IIRC, has been dated to the First Century!
My final bleat concerns mormon use of ‘modern-day revelations’ – and where are these to be found? We’ve seen here time and again these ‘modern-day revelations’ being tossed under the bus by mormons because they are so crazy they can’t be supported today – yet were studied, honored and sustained by the mormons of the era. It is not surprising to me that the departure of mormons from mormonism has been increasing – it just cannot stand up to honest examination.
Ok Falcon and VWBrown,
Lets not confuse the poor Mormons with the facts. Since when did lack of evidence or hard facts ever stop Mormons from believing something they really want to believe even if it leads to eternal damnation.
Rick B says: – March 12, 2012 at 10:39 am – (was that a good impression of Fred?)
Still calling me names I see.
(Thats like when the Bible says, Dont just say to you neighbor, Be warm and filled and be on your way.)
You do not need to be filled with fish; you need to be filled with the desire to fish for yourself.
(the Fred’s and Clydes)
I see Rick is still trying to hide from the truth and light by putting us down.
Pick a number:
1) Even if LDS were to believe the more positive statements or positions about the Bible given by LDS leaders, they still wouldn’t know how to interpret it. LDS usage of “them” in Paul’s reference to baptism for the dead, misunderstanding of James’ first 2 chapters, and “stick of Judah” all show that it isn’t just what they think of the Bible in general, but how they have been conditioned to read the Bible.
2) If LDS can accept all the changes to the BoM, DnC, etc. with just 180 yrs or less of their existence, no wonder they think the Bible is corrupted. In other words, if LDS can accept the corruption of their own scriptures, no wonder they assume that 10 times the length of time has rendered the Bible unusable. But…
3) I love that quote from Orson Pratt-thanks Sharon for giving me the source again. But… what does all the use of the Bible in General Conference and LDS publications past/present do to this quote? Or, the other way, what does this quote and its mentality do to the General Conferences and LDS publications past/present that use these corrupted Bible verses???
4) You put a picture of Joseph’s “corrected” Bible but didn’t get into it in this article, understandably. Nonetheless, it is MINDBOGGLING that LDS don’t catch the fact that the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible was either A) finished before he died and never published by the LDS church despite God’s command that it be so-DnC 94:10, or B) it was never finished and has never been finished by any Prophet,Seer,Revelator of the LDS Church despite God’s obvious intent that it be finished and published – DnC 124:89. Whether A) or B), LDS is false.
The two questions that come to mind for me are 1) is the Bible that we have today a clear representation of what was originally written? and 2) is the Bible a true revelation from God?
As to the Bible we have today being accurate, what scholars do is look at all of the copies plus portions of copies that survive, compare them, and see if they say the same thing. Pretty simple. In-other-words, the scholars check for transmission errors. A relatively small amount of the NT is of questionable material, less than 1/2 of 1 percent. The differences that do occur are grammatical in nature and don’t effect any doctrine. The claim by Mormons that the Bible has significant transmission errors is untrue.
As to whether or not the Bible is “true” is a whole other matter. So what are Mormons saying, that the Bible isn’t true? Are Mormons saying that parts of the Bible are “true” but other parts aren’t “true”? We are still waiting for one of these inspired Mormon apostles or prophets to reveal which parts of the Bible are indeed true and which parts are not true.
Let face it, the fun part for Mormons (of their religion) is all of the endless speculation and doctrinal wheeling and dealing. And the really fun part is that there is no accountability built into the system to sort out what the prophets and apostles have declared. Once again, these Mormon leaders thought they were speaking for God. They didn’t think that what they were revealing was their own opinion.
Mormonism is really an anything goes boom town mentality of speculative religious ideas. They basic standard works are a disaster of imaginative tale spinning. The Mormon church is a living monument to folks who want to play religion.
So this is how the tale goes. Mormonism has this really hot feature. It is that modern day Mormon prophets are getting continuous revelation from God. The Bible is basically a flawed older version of God’s revelation. Mormons claim, as the tale goes, that transmission errors in the original revelation make it (Bible) a not very reliable guide to what the mind of God is. Besides that, a great conspiracy between some monks who were copying the Bible, left out all of what is known today as Mormonism.
I know, it gets better or worse depending on how you look at it.
Some of the things that were lost in transmission/copying the Bible and by the dastardly monks and their conspiracy includes the “revelation” that there are many gods in the universe and that men can become gods also. Men can become gods by obedience to the restored gospel principles and participation in ancient temple rituals which were, of course, lost also but now have been restored via revelation.
Now mind you there is no Scriptural basis for any of this nor is their anything in the writings of the Church Fathers or early heretics concerning this nor is there anything in the history or tradition of the Church that supports any of this.
BUT the Bible can’t be trusted, however this super duper modern up to date revelatory process can be trusted, totally.
Well OK there have been some significant flip-flops, back filling, and prophetic utterances that didn’t come to pass but ignore all of that.
Funny how this works, isn’t it. According to Mormons, the Bible and the Christian Church have all of these flaws that render it null and void, but the LDS church and scripture with all of its flaws don’t really matter.
It works for them!
Don’t let things bother you. I have been reading Richard L. Evans Thought for one Hundred Days and one of them mentioned that if you look hard enough you can find something bad in anything Good.
Remember that they have set the tone of the comments by responding first and they will find something wrong no matter what you might say.
Great thought by Richard L. Evans . The way I was raised was to treat everyone with
respect until they proved that you could’nt trust them. Fact is , my wife and I being
simple country folk don’t let anyone get away from sharing a meal with us if they happen
to arrive around mealtime .( no matter what religion they may be ). We like people .
I’m sure most everyone here on this blog feels the same . So we don’t dig to find any “dirt”
on anyone we meet . I think that this behavior is different from evaluating the teachings
of those who come to our door with a message to follow a prophet. The Bible is clear
on this , and rightfully so, since even well meaning men can promote inaccurate
teachings that can affect our standing with God . These men can introduce teachings
that they feel are from God but are actually only their own reasoning , being only the
” precepts of men” [ 2 Nephi 28:14,31 ]. No wonder the apostles Jesus appointed were
faithful to Him by relaying His warning —1 Jn 4:1 ; 2Jn 9 . Since there are still men
around today that claim to be prophets with exclusive claims to be authorized by God
to dispense His truths , then how grateful we should be to God for giving us His Word
to measure these prophets teaching by lest we be led to embrace ” another gospel ” .
fred hasn’t offered anything of consequence on this blog on any topic and neither have you. There is no defense of Mormonism by either of you just some vague nonsense about Christians calling names, Christians persecuting you, Christians posting too much and the need for the Christian posters to study more to find the truth.
Why do you guys even show-up here? The point is to engage in conversation.
Here’s the problem. You and fred skate across the surface of Mormonism and Christianity. You’ve picked-up a little ditty at the farms/fair websites and a couple of often repeated talking points down at the wards and that’s your entire frame of reference. A couple of shots from the passing LDS car and off you speed into the night squealing your tires. Do your bishops know what you’re up to. If they did, they’d tell/order you to knock it off and stay away from the blogs.
You remind me of some runt on the playground calling the big guys names so they’ll chase him. The runt loves the attention even if he gets caught. There’s a saying that “bad breath is better than no breath at all” that’s applied to people who groove on any kind of attention including negative. It’s better than nothing.
clyde, I think you and friendly fred better study a little bit more or go hang out on the Mormon websites where Mormons hang and cyber high-five one another. You could also pay up your tithe, obey the Word of Wisdom and spend your evenings proxy dunking for the dead.
What aberrant religious sects must do from the get-go is use the Bible in such a way that it supports their heretical religious beliefs. In the case of Mormonism, the first words out of their mouths is that they are Christians and believe in the Bible. If an investigator has the curiosity to chase those claims down he will find that Mormonism is neither Christian or Bible believing.
The comment by the Mormon to Sharon says it all; don’t look at the Bible for your answers. Any well coached heretic will attempt to diminish the importance of the Bible in testing for truth. Mormonism can’t stand up to Biblical investigation. So the scenario that the Mormon sect tries to promote is that the gospel was lost, the Biblical revelation was lost and now, low-and-behold, a man who put his magic rock in his hat and gazed into it, has the restoration of the gospel.
A born-again believer, who is solid in the Bible and with spiritual discernment will easily dismiss claims by sects like the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons. All one has to do is listen to the tale told by Joseph Smith in the discovery of his golden plates and even a small amount of common sense, even absent discernment, will spot the scam.
The Bible is the enemy of Mormonism. The sacred Scriptures reveal God’s nature and His plan to reconcile mankind to Himself. Mormonism takes people away from God’s plan of salvation and God Himself.
It it any wonder who the author of Mormonism is?
Have any of you seen the LDS Church’s most recent attempt to appear as normal as possible to outsiders (http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-101)? It’s the most watered down misrepresentation of what the doctrines of the Church actually are. This was their response to the question, “Do Mormons believe in the Bible?”
Sorry, don’t know what happened to the quote. But here it is…
“The Bible has been robbed of its plainness; many sacred books having been lost, others rejected by the Romish Church, and what few we have left, were copied and re-copied so many times, that it is admitted that almost every verse has been corrupted and mutilated to that degree that scarcely any two of them read alike.” (Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 213.)
And here was their response to the Bible question:
“Yes. The Church reveres the Bible as the word of God, a sacred volume of scripture. Latter-day Saints cherish its teachings and engage in a lifelong study of its divine wisdom. Moreover, during worship services the Bible is pondered and discussed. Additional books of scripture — including the Book of Mormon— strengthen and reinforce God’s teachings through additional witnesses and provide moving accounts of the personal experiences many individuals had with Jesus Christ. According to Church apostle M. Russell Ballard, “The Book of Mormon does not dilute nor diminish nor deemphasize the Bible. On the contrary, it expands, extends, and exalts it.”
The real question becomes then… is this considered “official”?
First off Fred, I never called you anything, if in my post you are talking about, If I called you a name please tell me the name I called you? I simply did an impression of you, not calling you names. Then when you said I should be filled the desire to fish for myself, here you go again, claiming me and others are not looking and studying, when In fact we are. We had told you over and over the books we have read and given quotes. By you saying what you did, again proves you ahve no desire for the truth and neither does Clyde. He as you reject everything we say and show you. So before you two break your arms patting yourself on the back thinking you are so awesome, just show us where we are wrong. O wait, you cant, so instead you will just claim we are wrong and your being persecuted.
What a joke! Thanks for sharing both quotes. As the new quotes demonstrate, Mormonism tries to run as fast as it can away from its founders. That’s for public consumption of course. Behind the walls and closed doors of the wards, I’m guessing it’s the same old jive. As the quotes prove, these folks are just plain flat out liars.
Mormonism is not a Bible based religion. It’s a religion of half-baked ideas based on the whimsical mental meanderings of a bunch of prophet wanna-bees. In their quest to build there own religion, all they produced was the end product of run away imaginations.
How can peo0ple be so foolish as to buy this nonsense of lost books of the Bible, monumental transmission errors and wild conspiracy theories. At the same time they are willing to accept the total fantasy tale of a guy whose most recent activity was searching for buried treasure with a magic rock. This is who the founder of Mormonism was.
The Biblical message is not compatible with Mormonism. However Mormons are more willing to follow the never ending changing story of the restored gospel than God’s tried and true Word and His Christ.
The scary part is that those who are ignorant of the religion will buy into this. And the newer Mormons who want to be included and seen as normal by their non-member friends are perpetuating these lies. I keep seeing this Mormon FAQ page pop up all over FB. They have diluted the teachings so much so that they claimed those who practiced polygamy in “the early years” were a “remote group” and it is absolutely not a part of their religion. What??! It was a COMMANDMENT. And like I told a couple of missionaries who were trying to play it off like I was ignorant, it’s an “eternal/heavenly principle” in their Church. Just because it isn’t practiced now doesn’t mean they’re against it, doctrinally.
Sorry. I’m going to get all worked up.
I just hate watching innocent, well-meaning people get conned into thinking that Mormonism is Christianity, but just isn’t Catholic or Protestant. Thank the Lord websites like MRM exist. Now let’s just pray people do a little more research in order to find the actual teachings of the LDS church and not the socially-acceptable version.
Thank you for mentioning my financial and physical health as well as my missionary work. By the way you don’t tithe do you? Or are you a free lance christian and don’t belong to any church. The reason I stop by here is to see how radical the blogs can get. It is interesting how foaming in the mouth radical it becomes. What is emphasized and what isn’t. Right now it seems that you believe that (we believe the bible is the word of God) as far as it is translated correctly. I Believe the bible is the word of God, (as far as it is translated correctly). You seem to put so much emphasis on the last part that I almost believe I don’t believe anything from the Bible. But people are free to do that And that is what makes this country great. We don’t need to be to fanatical about it because there is one God we only see Him differently.
Every time you post you reveal something that indicates that you are limited in your understanding of both Christianity and Mormonism. It’s not unusual for Mormon missionaries to be sent out with nothing more than a canned presentation with little other knowledge or experience. So if you served as a missionary, it doesn’t say much about your knowledge. It just says you were a kid who was sent out by his church as a rite of passage. In regards to your financial standing and physical health, as usual, I have no idea what that has to do with anything that’s been posted here.
I would think you’d be impressed with my free lance Christian status. Didn’t God supposedly tell Joseph Smith not to join any church. BTW there’s a record of him trying to join a church after the date he says God told him not to. If you want to get into a discussion about tithing I suppose we could but then again that’s an attempt to take this conversation off topic.
Now to your final comment about “……there is one God we only see Him differently.” clyde that’s where Mormons get the reputation for being dishonest and making statements that just don’t reveal the reality of what Mormons believe. That Mormons believe there is one God is not just a misrepresentation of what they do believe, it’s a flat out lie.
When a Christian says there is One God, we mean One God. When a Mormon says there is one God they leave out the all important phrase, “of this world”. Mormons believe that there are millions perhaps billions of gods in the universe. This little qualifier of “this world” or “universe” or “planetary system” or however Mormons want to put it, reveals the acknowledgement of multiple gods.
Mormons believe that their personal testimony is a powerful tool in convincing people that what they believe is true. I’m wondering if they would be impressed with the testimony of Jesus and then His disciples regarding the veracity of God’s Word?
Here’s a few examples: Luke 24:25-27 tells us that Jesus “….explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.” That’s a pretty strong testimony I’d say.
Again in Luke 24:44-47 Jesus testifies to God’s Word relative to who He is and what He had done on the cross. Through out the NT starting with the Book of Acts there is a constant reference to the Scriptures. This is what the apostles were placing their claims on concerning the person and work of Jesus Christ. Acts 2:16, Acts 2:24-28, Acts 2:34, Acts 8:32-34.
Reference to the Scriptures goes on and on in the NT. Second Timothy 3:16-17 is the classic testimony to God’s Word, “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.”
After warning about false prophets Peter writes in Second Peter 1:19-21 that “…..we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention……no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
Mormons, with their rather low view of the Bible, reveal their belief that the Holy Spirit isn’t able to maintain the integrity of God’s Word.
It’s apparent that the Bible stands as an impediment to Mormonism. Instead of embracing God’s Word, Mormons embrace the false utterances of false prophets who can’t keep their story straight.
There is an infographic on the link that MaM shared (image here) that I think everyone should look at. It’s more about what the infographic ISN’T saying than what it IS saying.
A few examples —
What it says: 90% of Mormons donate money to religious-based organizations.
What it doesn’t say: “Religious-based organizations” means the LDS Church, because it’s required.
What it says: the BoM has 3,925 mentions of Jesus Christ.
What is doesn’t say: I can write a book and mention Jesus 5,000 times. That doesn’t mean it’s inspired of God or God’s word.
Going back to Sharon’s original post here and the Monson quote:
The Bible, as it has been transmitted over the centuries, has suffered the loss of many plain and precious parts… Many versions of the Bible are available today. Unfortunately, no original manuscripts of any portion of the Bible are available for comparison to determine the most accurate version. However, the Lord has revealed clearly the doctrines of the gospel in these latter days.
That argument is the most absurd, illogical “fact” I have read in my entire life. There are NO original manuscripts for the Book of Mormon. Period. The end. What else is there to say?
In his book “Essential Christianity”, Walter Martin makes this important point:
“The inspiration of the Bible and the concepts just mentioned refer only to the initial ‘breathing’ of God upon the authors of Scripture to produce a copy of His thoughts for man. It is for this original text of Scripture, revealed by God and faithfully recorded by His servants, that the Christian church claims infallibility. Through the centuries God has preserved literally thousands of copies and fragments of these initial manuscripts with only minor transmissional mistakes made be scribes over the years. Historic Christianity affirms the plenary or ‘full’ inspiration of the Bible, and it further holds that inspired concepts can be communicated only by inspired words. Thus, the church’s belief in the verbal inspiration of the Bible is logically inseparable from the doctrine of plenary inspiration.” (p. 18)
I imagine Mormons would be more impressed with the Bible if we said a man had a magic rock which he put in his hat and when shoving his face into the hat was given the words that eventually came to be known as God’s revealed Word.
We aren’t told by Mormons how Smith’s works other than the BoM came to be. If Smith didn’t use his magic rock while interpreting the Egyptian parchment that became the BoA or when the D&C was concocted, perhaps that is why there are so many errors in them.
The BoM has had enough changes made to it that a conspiracy theory could be advanced concerning it also. None-the-less, a lot of things could be cleared up by the current Mormon prophets and apostles if they’d just make their way down to the vault and haul out Smith’s rock. I don’t know if his hat had magical properties or not. Any hat should do!
Jesus was direct when He talked about Scripture. He needed to be since He was the living Word. For example, Jesus said that “the Scriptures cannot be broken”. (Jesus had the highest view of Scripture as demonstrated in John 12:44-50 and John 17:17. Would those who call Jesus Lord and Savior have an inferior view of Scripture?
The Anglican scholar Bishop E. H. Bickersteth said this about the Bible:
“Every jot and tittle of the Bible, as originally penned by the sacred writers, is GOD’S WORD WRITTEN-I repeat, as originally penned, for the truth here affirmed does not ask us to believe in the inspiration of copyists or translators or interpreters. Superficial errors, though we believe them to be few and comparatively unimportant, may have crept in during the lapse of ages. But the autographs were perfect…….as the Incarnate Word was subject to the innocent infirmities of humanity, though absolutely and perfectly without sin, so the written Word is the mind of God, couched in the feeble symbolism of human speech, but yet is pure, perfect, and infallible. This glorious possession-this choicest heirloom of the family of man-we owe to the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.”
God is able to protect His Word just as He is able to protect His Church. That Church cannot be contained in a building assigned to a particular denomination. The “Church” is made up of all born again believers who have been regenerated by the Holy Ghost through faith and kept secure as God’s possession. The Word of God preserves His revelation as given. Those who reject God’s Word, reject God.
As is true in all aspects of Mormonism, when it comes to the Bible, Mormons really don’t bother to do any research, choosing to instead, simply believe what the LDS church puts out. Unfortunately what is put out by the Mormon church generally indicates that the Bible can’t be trusted. What can be trusted, in the view of Mormons, is what the church puts out (about the Bible).
I decided to dig deep through my past copies of “Christian History” magazine to find Issue 43, “How We Got Our Bible”. The magazine starts out with a section on “little-known and remarkable facts about the history of the Bible by David M. Scholer.
Among these facts:
*The oldest surviving manuscript of any part of the NT is a papyrus fragment containing verses from John 18; scholars estimate it was written about 125.
*In the ancient and medieval worlds, some Christians memorized large portions of Scripture. Eusebius of Caesarea said he once met a blind Egyptian who “possessed whole books of the Holy Scriptures….in his heart.”
*When English Bibles were first published, people were fascinated with them. One Essex man recalled that “poor men bought the NT of Jesus Christ and on Sundays did sit reading in the lower end of the church, and many would flock about them to hear their reading.”
*Martin Luther translated the NT into German in a blitz of only 11 weeks.
*Unsung Heroes: Before the invention of mass-production printing (c. 1455), the Bible’s transmission depended on the many anonymous monks who patiently copied biblical manuscripts by hand. It would have taken weeks or even months to copy a book like Isaiah. Today we know of about 2,300 Bible manuscripts copied from A.D. 300 to 1500.
The final article in this issue concerning how we got our Bible is titled:
“From the Apostles to you: After 2,000 years of transmission and translation, does the bible still accurately convey the meaning of the original authors? Great question, huh?
Question: Most of the earliest surviving NT manuscripts are 100 to 200 years later than the originals. Is that cause for concern?
Answer: By contrast, our copies of other ancient writings, like those of Virgil or Homer, are often many hundreds of years later than their originals. In some of those writings, we have only one copy! The NT, on the other hand, has many copies.
Question: Over the centuries of transmission, have scribal errors touched any core Christian doctrines?
Answer: No key doctrine of the Christian faith has been invalidated by textual uncertainty. On the other hand, some passages have been affected. For example, take Mark 9:29. Jesus is explaining how he was able to cast out a demon, and in the earliest manuscripts, he is quoted as saying, “This kind can come out only by prayer.” In the Greek manuscripts the KJV translators used, the two words ‘and fasting’ are tacked on. I do not think that is an earth-shaking difference, but it is typical of the kind of changes we are talking about…………..By studying manuscript history, we see that the words ‘and fasting’ were inserted between 300 and 600. These were the years of the desert fathers and the birth on monasticism. ……regiments of fasting were becoming more strict. Probably a devout scribe, himself part of a fasting tradition, believed that Jesus must have meant to include ‘and fasting’ so he included the two words.
This last part is speculation of course, but the important thing is that Biblical scholars take their task very seriously.
That was a great post, thanks Sharon!
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