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63 Responses to Why Our Family Left The Mormon Church
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I agree with his statement that there is truth in the Book of Mormon. Take Moroni 8:18 for example:
For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.
I left because Brigham Young said he had a “revelation” that Adam was God. I could not believe this, nor reconcile it to the Book of Mormon. On 8 June 1873 Young taught,
“How pleased we should be to place these things before the people if they would receive them! How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me–namely that Adam is our father and God–I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his [73] wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first woman upon the earth. Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth. I have been found fault with by the ministers of religion because I have said that they were ignorant. But I could not find any man on the earth who could tell me this, although it is one of the simplest things in the world, until I met and talked with Joseph Smith.” (8 June 1873 SLC Tabernacle Deseret News Weekly, 22:308-309) _johnny
I could not reconcile that later prophets would call former prophets teachers of false doctrine. That they would lie that Brigham Young taught what he did, and then try to say that it was all “misunderstood” and that a normal intelligent person could not figure out what Young was talking about. I was insulted that I was finally told to “ignore” it all, and be a “good boy” and just “let it all go”. I was further insulted when I was given a book that did not explain it, but rather was full of lies about what Brigham Young did teach, and told that this was the “truth”. (Adam, Who Is He?, by Mark E. Peterson). I invite all those still active in the church to research this very important doctrinal “revelation” claimed by Brigham Young and see what conclusions you come to. God does not lie, and his servants are told not to. That the Mormon Hierarchy still denies this “revelation” to Young, and continues to lie about it, shows that these men do not have, nor know the truth. _johnny
I don’t think it was any one thing that caused me to leave. I stumbled across an article in one of my old Ensigns about proof that the Book of Abraham is true. As I read the article and studied the facsimiles I knew it was all bogus. That’s where I started my research. It all snowballed from there. I came across Heart of the Matter with Shawn McCraney and I learned so much from him. I would watch a show and then spend a day or two studying the topic. I learned about Joseph Smith translating the BoM by putting a rock on his hat and stuffing his face into it, Joseph Smith not only started polygamy he practiced it and also married other men’s wives, many versions of the first vision. I learned the truth about Haun’s Mill, Mountain Meadows, Carthage Jail, temple ceremonies taken from Free Masonry, Blacks and the Mormon priesthood, and on and on….. After 4 years of comparing Mormonism to Christianity, I decided to resign from the LDS church. There are still things that pop up that I have been taught in Mormonism that is not part of Christianity. I am still learning.
Aaron, I heard you spend a lot of time justifying why the Church is wrong, but I did not hear you say that you are now right. Also, I did not hear anything about your born again being saved experience.
Did I miss it?
My experiences about people who do that are people who are running away from the Church and not toward Heavenly Father. Think about it.
fred
Our church just started offering a support group/class for people who have left the mormon church. Leaving the church is like having a limb removed and learning how to function now without it. I applaud this family for following through on what I am sure was the hardest decision of their lives.
It’s good that these folks did the amount of research that they did because the research process serves a real purpose; not only for determining truth, but for providing time to go through the emotional upheaval that occurs when you find out that everything you believed in, counted on, and invested in, is false.
With something like the BoM, a person can either take a shotgun to it or a rifle. With the shotgun, you just blow it apart and let the pieces flutter to the ground. With the rifle, you can take aim at certain portions of the book and examine them carefully and test them for the truth.
The comment that there is some truth in the BoM is instructive in that some people cling to those portions without stepping back and getting the full picture. If the BoM didn’t have a certain spiritual feel to it, it wouldn’t have the emotional tug that some find irresistible and in fact mistake (feel) for communication from God.
The BoM and Mormonism does hold a certain attraction for some people. For many of these, any explanation for the glaring problems of Mormonism, will do. The explanations, no matter how far fetched or nonsensical, will do in maintaining emotional equilibrium.
Congratulations to the family in the video. They persevered in finding the truth and in finding it, true freedom.
Joseph Smith saw fit to change the Bible. Thus was the ego of the man who maintained that the real meaning of God’s Word had been corrupted and he was going to restore its (real meaning) by revelation. So he rewrote it with the following result:
“After he wrote the Book of Mormon Joseph Smith (the founder of the LDS church) had a problem. It started coming to light that parts of the Book of Mormon contradicted the Bible. Joseph Smith proclaimed that the problem was that errors had been introduced into the Bible and he undertook to make a new translation of the Bible, which he called the Inspired Version of the Bible.”
“Joseph Smith could not read ancient Greek or Hebrew, and did not even have access to ancient manuscripts. So he accomplished his translation through “direct revelation from God”. Instead of actually translating he added to and subtracted from the King James Version based on what he called “divine inspiration.” Thousands of changes were introduced into the Bible, including a new verse in Genesis 50 that predicted Joseph Smith’s own coming.”
This was a great presentation because it highlights the major problems with the Mormon religion in general and Joseph Smith specifically.
It’s a tough pill to swallow for people who love Mormonism, it’s culture and people. What’s happening is that their entire belief system and social structure is being invalidated. It would be like finding out that your spouse, whom you love, admire and respect is not what you thought he/she was. What a jolt!
But here’s the Good News! While Joseph Smith and his creation are false, Jesus is real. Sometimes people have a really bad relationship that can leave them bitter and swearing that they will never allow themselves to be vulnerable again. The bad fruit of Mormonism is that it can leave people disillusioned and bitter.
To walk into a Christian church and start over again could be a daunting task. For those who can’t do that, I’d suggest a middle ground. First-and-foremost, Jesus needs to be viewed without the prism of an organized denominational church. He stands alone as does the Word of God as the foundation upon which we build our faith. I’m not much of a church goer and I’m certainly not a joiner. However just lately I attended the same church three Sundays in a row. I kind of like it. It’s big enough that I can just sort of get lost and take advantage of the worship service that I like and the preaching which is very good. The coffee and donuts are also excellent!
I’m not recommending my approach as something folks should emulate, I’m just saying that I’ve maintained my relationship with God and with Our Lord and Savior without a full blown, super involvement in an organized church.
Get to know Jesus and God’s Word as a first step.
Aaron was never a Mormon. http://aaronshaf.wordpress.com/about/ http://www.mrm.org/about
The problem with Mormonism is not knowing which “god” to run to (or away from). Joseph Smith taught that the Mormon “god” was “Jehovah”. Brigham Young taught that he was “Adam”. Later “prophets” taught that he was “Elohim”. It is hard to take self proclaimed “prophets” seriously when they themselves can’t get their own “gods” in order.
Here we go again, Fred thinking he is correct, yet does not have the facts, and does not care about the facts. And again with the asking questions but never answering them. Typical.
fred,
Again I must ask you, what’s your point? I know you think you’re being profound with these veiled cryptic messages that supposedly only the truly deep can understand and the rest need to ponder. I think you’re what’s known as a “poser” or as they say on the basketball court, “You don’t have game.”
I imagine you didn’t spend anytime watching the above video because if you had you would have seen that these folks left Mormonism and found God.
If that is described by Mormons as “running away” I can’t think of anything better to run away from than the Mormon church.
Just think of it this way, they escaped a false religious system, and found salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
Think about it!
grindael,
I’m laughing because I was looking for the “Like” button on your second comment! Maybe a little too much Facebook for me ha ha ha!
I think the LDS church is in real trouble because of families just like the one in the video. We live in the information age. It’s so easy to research absolutely everything. As more Mormons (and people in general) start using the information highway, hidden parts of Mormonism will continue to be brought to the front. I bet the LDS church will have to hire a committe just to keep up with all the dissenters….oh yea, they already have that! Doesn’t that just sound a little creepy, cultish???
fred,
Instead of trying to insult Aaron and take the focus off of the real topic, you need to take the time to watch the video. You may just learn something. I bet this family had been LDS a lot longer than you. Even the teenage girl knows how to research things and study and compare scripture. Maybe truly listen to her. This family is all too common in the LDS church.
Kate,
I was thinking that very thing. What a compliment it is to this family that they took the time and did their homework and then chronicled it all. I think that there are individuals and families who just fade away from the program because they get tired of the grind. It doesn’t satisfy their needs. It’s like a lodge complete with the funny hats and costumes.
Besides fred just refuses to study hard to find the truth. Think about it!
It’s kind of interesting that this family wasn’t intimidated about doing research into the troubling aspects of Mormonism; it’s history and beliefs. Anything that is not considered “faith promoting” or supporting the religion is, according to Mormon authorities, to be avoided like a plague.
This is a good way of keeping people dumb and happy and on the Mormon ship. The interesting thing is that folks who are inclined to take a serious look at the religion don’t have to go to websites that would be considered anti by Mormon authorities. The best sources for discovering the unvarnished truth about Mormonism comes from Mormon sources.
Andy Watson had a couple of lapsed Mormons over to his house recently and they were amazed at his library of Mormon materials, most with the LDS imprint right on the cover. In fact Andy carries around a bag chock full of LDS printed materials when he’s on a witnessing run. Mormons don’t know what to say when he gives them a factoid about Mormonism that they don’t know and then backs it up with information direct from Mormon sources.
The family in the video obviously has a lot of integrity and wouldn’t easily accept the lame explanations that are generally offered by LDS authorities for information that is not “faith promoting”.
The expectation is that Mormons are to keep believing and stay in the LDS church no matter what. There’s a certain mentality that will go along with that but given the number of people (two-thirds) that are inactive and the number of returning missionaries (one-half) that go inactive, most people are just plain turned-off by some aspect of Mormonism.
For the questioning Mormon, here’s a good presentation by John Dehlin of “Mormon Stories”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZQJc5SxnVs
I first listened to John Dehlin’s presentation a couple of years ago. I was struck by the fact that John, at the time a practicing Mormon, lists all of these problems with the Mormon church and then concludes that there’s no “smoking gun” here and these things are not reasons to leave the church.
John’s main appeal was for those still in the church to treat those who have left with respect. He also emphasizes that a person can know all of this information and still look for the “good” in the church. He also attempts to contrast “true” with “good”. That is the church and it’s leaders might not be 100% true but it can still be good.
When I first heard the presentation I was kind of blown away by John listing all of these very damaging facts challenging the “truth” of the LDS church and then (John’s) concluding “now this is no reason to leave the church”. I was like, “Really! Are you kidding me?”
Well like the family in the video, I guess it just got to be too much for John. The last I heard he was no longer active in the Mormon church. I was wondering, when I first listened to the presentation, how John, knowing what he knew, could maintain any personal integrity and stay in the Mormon church. His suggestion of a sort of buffet type Mormonism obviously didn’t work for him.
To be a true blue died in the wool Mormon, there are things you can’t know. There are things that even for the most die-hard Mormon, to know them will change the perspective of the church in such a way that it’s not what it was prior to having the knowledge.
Serious questions arise regarding the veracity of Joseph Smith and those who followed him with the designation of prophet. There are too many inconsistencies and changes in doctrines and beliefs promoted by these supposed conduits of the voice of the Lord to maintain 100% faith in them. The church also emerges as being terribly flawed.
So in order to stay, a Mormon has to seriously down-grade their perspective and expectations regarding the leadership and church. When that happens what becomes of the belief that the Mormon church is the one true church? It’s pretty hard to go on serving an institution that you once thought perfect and realize it’s terribly flawed.
That’s the problem with following institutions and men who have been designated as perfect and true. What is perfect and true has to be entirely redefined and taken down several notches.
Soon it becomes opinion and folklore and is deemed “good” instead of true. At one time Mormons were taught that those in the high leadership of their church had experienced an appearance (to them) of Jesus. Most recently that has been down-graded so that they are now said to have a “witness” of Jesus. That’s a major change. What Mormon couldn’t claim the same thing albeit the Mormon Jesus isn’t the Jesus of the Bible.
Facts are stubborn things. To try and hold two contradictory ideas in mind at the same time is called cognitive dissonance. That’s the challenge of Mormonism.
I thought that one of the interesting points that John Dehlin makes is that going to Mormon apologetic websites is not a real satisfactory experience for those Mormons doing research into Mormonism. In my own words, he’s saying that these websites are pretty lame. The explanations that these Mormon apologetic sites offer to the problems of Mormonism are thin, to say the least.
These sites perform a service to keep the naive believing Mormon in the program. But for any Mormon doing serious research, it’s easy to see through the excuse making and alibis of the Mormon apologists. So these sites have a limited reach and influence.
Mormonism is really its own worst enemy.
What a blessing , and refreshing, to listen to a family talk more about Jesus rather than a
church and a prophet, etc. This family has come to see the dynamic truth that when it
comes to a christians identity that it’s all about Jesus and His simple gospel , not by
emphasizing some “modern-day” prophet or a specific church with a specific name on
it as part of a testimony. There have been many similar families discover that they
have been detoured by Mormon prophets/apostles into embracing inaccurate teachings
on many significant doctrines, doctrines that are not from Jesus . These families also
have discovered this detour and did a u-turn back to a gospel more in line with what
Jesus directed His original apostles to spread to the world , this gospel is recorded in the
New Testament for all to embrace, and it has always been sufficient to fully save all who
embrace it . So praise God for another family that stands for Jesus and has no need for
the apostles of Mormonism.
Mormonism is either true or it is false. There’s really no middle ground. In his presentation, John Dehlin who at the time was a practicing Mormon, tried to find that middle ground. It’s at that point that a person would have to ask, “Why would I want to follow a religion who’s prophets have gotten it wrong so many times, who’s rituals are meaningless and who use my money to finance a big religious corporation?
This is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the shady side of the Mormon religion.
The real problem, like Mike pointed out above, is that Mormonism robs people of a real relationship with Jesus Christ.
Mormons speak in hush, reverent tones about “heavenly father” and feel an emotional attachment to what they think are a mother-father tandem who gave spiritual birth to them and will at a future date welcome them back home to the Celestial Kingdom.
While this notion may make someone “feel” good, it’s an emotion built on a false premise. The “forever family” appears to be hyper-important to Mormon women. It’s a real hook. I can imagine a TBM wife/mother watching the video of the family above and reacting in horror at the idea that this (family) gave-up their chance to be together for eternity.
The reality is that this family isn’t giving up anything because what Mormonism teaches about eternal marriage and forever families is a ruse.
The apostle Paul writes about how he strove to get a head as a Jew in the Jewish system. He then says that whatever he lost in his former life was worth it because of what he had gained in Christ Jesus.
Knowing who God is and what He did for us in Jesus makes Mormonism fade away.
(I imagine you didn’t spend anytime watching the above video)
(you need to take the time to watch the video. You may just learn something)
Kate, falcon:
I see you two still have the habit of coming to your conclusions without facts, and you assssume an answer you want.
I did watch it and found nothing new; they are just repeating the same old, already proven bad, information that has deceived many for years.
fred
Fred said
Fred, you are the one that is giving out false information and deceiving people. You keep saying we are putting out the same old tired info, but it is people like you and clyde who cannot and will not refute us, give us the facts by saying, these people said…
But here is what is really being taught by us….
All you can do is say, you guys are wrong and leave it at that. You tell us you really did study and search, but we dont believe that when you never give us facts.
You can ask TJAYT, Me and him are talking via private email, He says he believes……
I tell him his church has taught……
I provide evidence and quotes from LDS sources, He tell me if he does not agree and gives detailed reasons why and quotes from various sources.
But you, all you do is say we are wrong, thats it, you never answer questions and provide answers.
(who use my money to finance a big religious corporation?)
To use a farm analogy, I do not understand why anyone would be upset at someone using part of your money as seed corn to create a large crop of corn that then can feed many more people and to feed them for a longer time than your initial donation would be able to feed.
One example, think seed money and large crops of money that are used to keep on hand cargo plane shipments that can be loaded and sent to a disaster site the day after the disaster.
You know, creating more humanitarian aid that is greater than such a small group of people can afford by donation alone.
fred
fred,
I’d echo what rick said. What is presented in the video presentations is true.
You have a very bad habit of making blow-off comments without anything to back up your assertions. It’s really a tired strategy and doesn’t work with people who have actually done the work to unearth the facts about Mormonism. Your desire to want to believe Mormonism to be true has led you to a fairy tale type of irrational thinking that while preserving the fantasy, keeps you locked in a false religious system.
fred one of the standard Mormon blow-off lines that I’ll lend you to use in the future is, “The church leaders answered all of those charges a long time ago.” The key words here are “church leaders” (i.e. assumed authoritative source), “charges” (untrue, unsubstantiated falsehoods), “a long time ago” (it’s all old news and nothing to get worked-up about; ignore it and keep tithing).
This sort of thing works for you fred, but for the family in the video, they actually did the work and came to the correct conclusion that the lies and distortions put out by the Mormon church can’t do battle against folks who have integrity.
BTW fred, this humanitarian aid that the LDS church does; who benefits from that and what percentage of the money that comes into the coffers goes to help folks outside of the LDS system.
fred you need to study hard to find the truth. Think about it!
Falcon;
You say I am the one with a pre-conclusion and I must defend it with all my might.
I do not need your help in defending God’s Church, you see, I came into this as a need to prove the Church wrong. I know all about how you can justify anything you want , all you have to do is say you have all the facts you want and need; and that you no longer need to study and search.
Yes, I have come to the conclusion that the Church is true. After starting with the pre-conclusion the Church should be false, I found that I could not back up that pre-conclusion, so I had to arrive at a new conclusion. I know how hard it is for you to find answers you do not want.
Just for fun, check out some of the anti-Christian blogs. They do a better job of trying to prove that Christianity is wrong then you folks do in trying to prove that Mormonism is wrong. If I were to accept your pre-conclusion on Mormons, I would have to accept their pre-conclusions on Christ.
fred
Well fred that was a nice little post but it’s basically blue sky. You never get specific about anything that we have offered here to debunk Mormonism. It’s always a sort of feelings based mantra with no real information.
If you notice, when Christians post here we provide specifics which you are never able to counter or answer. That reveals a lot.
Have you also taken notice of the former Mormons who post here, who grew-up in the program, were dedicated to the program and through thoughtful, diligent study, left the program.
Putting all the other evidence aside, the major thing that you’re going to have to deal with is that you’re following a false god. That’s really the bottom line. The god you acknowledge was once a man and through work in the Mormon system on another planet became a god and his many wives became goddesses. That’s not revealed in the Bible fred but is the creative work of a false prophet.
That’s all I really need to know fred because it reveals to me the spirit the guides Mormonism and that guides you. I can tell by the way you post and what you say that you are under the influence of a deluding spirit. I can’t expect that you can fully understand what we are telling you.
I will pray that God, through the power of the Holy Spirit will break that which is binding you. I will ask God to loose you from the darkness that engulfs you. This is a spiritual battle that is going on here and it is waged in the heavenlies. Paul talks about it at length in the Book of Ephesians.
I think instead of responding to you, from now on I’ll spend that time in prayer specifically for you.
Fred, what you’re experiencing here is simple to explain , it’s people who are warning you
of following a false prophet led organization . It’s unfortunate that many Mormons see this
as meaning that their leaders are not cordial, polite , moral , individuals so therefore they just
can’t be false prophets because all false prophets are immoral, conniving men right? Wrong!
So you started out to prove the Mormon church was not the one true church but you ended
up believing that it is the true church . While I find myself being slow to judge your heart on
your experience in arriving at that position , but I realize that Mormons can have a wide
definition of what that means. People can have a various array of reasons that they based their
conclusion on that the Mormon church is the one true church today . This being the case I
need to direct your attention to the Bible , that is a good place to start in evaluating anyone who
comes to us and claims to reveal spiritual truth about Jesus or His gospel . You feel that
Mormon apostles have been directed by Jesus since about 1830 to reveal His gospel , the
claim is made that this is the same Jesus that directed the apostles to reveal His gospel in the
first century , so it’s not unreasonable to compare the teachings of Mormon apostles with those
recorded in the New Testament . Your testimony of finding the Mormon gospel as being
directly from Jesus should be consistent with the New Testament apostles teachings
on God and receiving eternal life , for example . Remember Jesus’ warning: Matt7:15
Mike
As I mentioned to fred above, in the final analysis what we have here is a spiritual battle that, as Paul points out in his letter to the Ephesians, is fought in the heavenly places.
There have always been attacks on God’s Church by false prophets and although the faces change, the motives and techniques are basically the same.
False prophets go after the Word of God, the person and work of Jesus, the Virgin birth of Our Lord, God’s grace in saving those who come to Jesus in faith as opposed to those who try to justify themselves through worthless works, and the ultimate judgement of God.
The Bible calls people who harden their hearts against God, rebels. It’s truly fitting since the ultimate rebel Lucifer led a rebellion against God. So since Lucifer was cast out his demonic presence works to draw people away from God.
We often think that people who are leading sinful life styles are the most obvious rebels against God and His righteousness. However can anything be any worse than rejecting God and thinking that right living is a suitable testimony?
So we’re dealing with a spirit here. Considerable prayer while donning the full Armor of God is the best approach.
Falcon, you brought up some important things concerning false prophets. I’ve felt for a long
time that the Mormon people simply don’t seem to understand that their leaders could be
false prophets because these men look polite , are well dressed, well educated individuals .
Mormon leaders claim to be personally directed and supervised by Jesus in teaching the
Mormon people , but these men have left a track record of only producing their own ideas
as spiritual truth on many important teachings , instead of truth from God . Mormons like
Fred don’t offer much in the way of taking Jesus’ warning about false prophets seriously.
I hope we’re all praying for his eyes to be opened because it is as you said a spiritual battle.
fred,
Kate, falcon:
“I see you two still have the habit of coming to your conclusions without facts, and you assssume an answer you want.:
What are you talking about fred? The facts, taken from LDS sources are where we are getting our information. Where are you getting your information? Here’s your problem. We quote facts taken from LDS sources and you can’t refute those facts without showing your beloved leaders and the history of your man made religion false. To dispute things a prophet said would be calling him a false prophet. That’s why LDS apologists have a full time, daily job trying to twist absolutely everything past leaders have said and given as revelation. Sorry but it’s out there in print, in black and white for anyone to research. Why isn’t the current prophet shouting the truth of Mormonism out to the world fred? He’s pretty quiet.
Your farm analogy is hilarious. Yes the LDS church does send out humanitarian aid. Not nearly as much as the Catholic church, but it does send it. Tell me, what purpose does the Multi million dollar mall the church just built serve? Tithe payers give their money for new temples and to help the poor. How does building a new shopping mall help the poor? It’s all about the money fred.
Fred, what a joke.
If this was a court of law and you and any christian here were lawyers you would be tossed out of court. It would go something like this.
Rick, Judge, Mormonism teaches their are many Gods and this contradicts what God the Father said.
God says, I know of no other gods, their will be no gods formed before me or after me.
Rick goes onto say to the judge, the King follet discourse teaches we will be Gods and their are millions of Gods. Teachings of the prophet JS on page 70 talks about many Gods Existing.
BoA teaches God the father saying their are no other Gods besides Him, then later says, God the father sat in the counsel of the Gods and they created the heavens and the earth.
Fred the lawyer says, Your honer, Rick is wrong because I studied Mormonism and believe he is wrong.
Judge says, Fred what evidence do you present.
Fred, My testimony and the fact that I studied and fell he is wrong.
Judge, Fred all you going on is, Rick is wrong, you are not going to refute the sources quoted by Rick?
Fred, Yes your Honor, Rick is wrong because I said so and studied and dont see these issues as a problem.
Judge says, Fred, Rick quoted sources that clearly contradict one another and all you can do is claim he is wrong?
Fred, Yes your honor.
Judge, Fred, you are clueless, Please leave.
Rick says, Fred this is how you are.
Kate (Tell me, what purpose does the Multi million dollar mall the church just built serve?); (How does building a new shopping mall help the poor?
Seed corn; for the generations of needy to come.
The mall is like the past projects that folks like you said bad things about that are now helping the poor and needy.
You have to plant money to harvest money; and in today’s economy money is what you need to help large numbers of people.
++++++++++++++
Rick B (If this was a court of law)
This is not a court of law, it is an open blog. I believe that those who want to be spoon feed by others will happily follow you and your teachings.
I do not spoon feed.
fred
RickB,
While on my mission in Finland I came across a lady who was Anglican and her husband was atheist. He was a lawyer in an international banking corporation in Finland. She had a pamphlet that was anti-LDS and had just your little argument in there – that the Bible states only one God and that the LDS church believes that we can become gods ourselves. So she asked my companion and I if we could answer back. I have shown you in the past my answer to it from the Bible starting off with first asking what she believed about God. She said that she believed in the Trinity. So after my companion and I gave our answer (which started that Jesus is a God), she said that she did not believe that Jesus is God. Her husband, who was listening in on the conversation chipped in and told her that we gave a satisfactory answer to the question and that she was in the wrong now and was denying her belief to try and prove us wrong. So he understood the question and answer and said that we were correct.
Now you can possibly say that he was an atheist so he doesn’t understand anything to make a judgment, but he has no preconceived ideas as to who was right and who was wrong and in his mind our answer was correct and his wife was wrong. So your ‘argument’ you just gave does not work.
Fred,
Give us a break, no one asked you to spoon feed anyone, and you dont do anything anyways.
Since you say this is not a court of law, lets look at it this way, this is a blog were we come to talk about Mormonism and debate it, You dont debate, all you do is accuse with out facts or evidence. Many have asked you, why are you here, you offer nothing at all.
Second, the Bible says and this has been pointed out to you many times, we are to contend for the faith, and we are to give every man an answer that asks. You do neither.
Ralph, Atheists would not agree with the Bible, I debate many hard core God hating atheists. So I wont look to them and say, they must be right.
Then Ralph, Your as bad as Fred, All you do is stop by once and a while and say, I answered that some time back. Yet you have avoided for what ever reason, many good topics and big topics. I will not derail this topic and debate the trinity with you, Maybe that topic will come up again and we can then debate it. God said He knows of No other Gods, and their will be non formed after Him and their were none formed before Him. So If he knows of None, and you do, then who do I believe, God or You? I choose God.
RickB,
Oh come on, you know I’ve been on this site for about the same number of years as you have been and I was very active in answering questions up until about a year ago. I have answered questions countless times in the past just to have the answer ignored so I have stopped answering ones I have answered in the past now as my time at the moment is very busy.
As far as an atheist ‘not agreeing with the Bible’ – I used only Biblical verses to prove my position, he was agreeing with me and not his wife. So he was agreeing with the Bible either way he chose. But in your example you used ‘a judge’, in this case, the ‘judge’ was an atheist who was impartial when it came to Biblical interpretation and religious preference, but was biased a his wife was one of the sides of the argument. So unless there was marital problems that I didn’t know of, he listened to both arguments and decided that we proved our point better than his wife.
Ralph,
An Atheist that agrees with an LDS member does not prove the BoM to be true.
You said you answered all our questions and we did not reply, thats not true. You might have given an answer, but that does not mean we agree with you or felt you had proven your case, as you I’m sure will say the same about us.
Their simply is no evidence to prove Mormonism. All the leaders, past and present cannot agree and contradict one another . I went to Israel and will be going again. You cannot and have not and will not find any Mormon who has gone to visit BoM lands, or found evidence of the battle of the hill cumorh. That so called battle place has even moved.
You cannot say as others have, their is so little BoM history and that is why we have no archeological evidence. The BoM as I have pointed out mentions the Tower of babel, so that means the history is their and that proves it cannot be true if it has been around as long as the Bible.
JS is a fraud and sadly has been leading people into eternal death for many years now. Sadly you are headed that way as the bible says, You choose darkness rather than light.
rick,
I think we have to remember that Ralph, like all Mormons, is seeing the BoM through “the eyes of faith”. This was the same manner in which the supposed witnesses to the golden plates, saw the plates. In-other-words, they imagine that it’s true and they liked it. There’s no accounting for emotions confirming something as being true. Mormons “feel” the spirit of something and that confirms it. It’s interesting that the Community of Christ Mormon sect gives its members the option of viewing the BoM as “real” history or a “spiritual” book. In-other-words, they’ve figured it out.
In 2007 CoC President Stephen M. Veazey said “while the Church affirms the Book of Mormon as scripture, and makes it available for study and use in various languages, we do not attempt to mandate the degree of belief or use. This position is in keeping with our longstanding tradition that belief in the Book of Mormon is not to be used as a test of fellowship or membership in the church.”[13]
That statement suggest that a person wouldn’t have to have any sort of “witness” of the BoM to be a member of the CoC.
Let’s face it, who would want to have to spend time trying to defend the BoM as an actual historical document. There is no history present in the BoM. It’s a fantasy story direct from the imagination of Joseph Smith. Mormon Thomas Ferguson spent many years and a lot of money trying to find any archeological evidence to support the BoM. It became apparent to him that the BoM and the religion that flows from it are a scam.
The technique of trying to find something wrong with the Bible in order to prove the BoM true is Ralph’s favorite Mormon strategy.
fred,
Please prove to me that the LDS church is using it’s proceeds from the giant shopping mall to feed the poor and help the needy. They also need “seed corn” to allow them to continue in the rich lifestyle they have become accustomed to. The multi million dollar home for the prophet, expensive clothing, travel, etc…The LDS church does not and will not open it’s records for anyone to see. As I understand it, even the Catholic church’s financial records are open. My church’s financial records are open and we even vote on how the tithing is spent. As a Mormon, I just gave money and never knew where or what it was being used for. So please prove that the mall is “seed corn” for the poor and needy.
Ralph,
Jesus IS God. He is God incarnate. I’m wondering did you inform the lady in Finland and her husband, that Jesus is their spirit brother? The literal offspring of your God and one of his many wives? How can God say himself that there is no other God besides him, yet you believe that there are millions or billions of gods and that you yourself are striving to be one? One Athiest’s opinion does not make Mormonism true. I’m with Rick, I’ll trust God, not you or the arrogant men of Mormonism.
Kate;
I think it is you who needs to examine where you got this information and to study its accuracy. If you can find something other than the ranting of someone unhappy with God’s Church please show me, I have found nothing other than rumor and hype.
fred
I get a kick out of this Mormon strategy/tactic. There’s something wrong with the Bible There’s something wrong with Christianity. Therefore the BoM and Mormonism is true.
That was Joseph Smith play of course. There was a need for new scripture and a new gospel because the old scripture and old gospel were corrupted.
Thank heavens for Joseph Smith, huh? Think of all that was lost, that we didn’t know about that got restored. Imagine not knowing all of that really neat historical stuff that’s in the BoM that we wouldn’t have known about if Smith hadn’t gotten his hands on those golden plates.
If it wasn’t for the BoM we wouldn’t have known that the American Indians were really displaced Jews. And all of that technology, and the animals and the agricultural products for which there is no evidence of existing……..well thank heavens for those gold plates that preserved it all.
And think of this; we wouldn’t have known that first century Christians worshiped in temples and performed Masonic Lodge rituals if it weren’t for Joseph Smith. Last but not least, what about the first century Christian priesthood for which there was no evidence if it weren’t for spirits appearing to Joseph Smith cluing him in.
Last but not least, just think we wouldn’t have known that first century Christians practiced polygamy and that the god they worshiped was really a former man from Kolob.
Since there’s not mention of any of this in the Bible, the writings of the Church Fathers or Church tradition, we just have to come to the conclusion that it was all lost and needed to be restored. Forget the evidence, concentrate on your feelings. BTW, if this Mormon stuff gives you a bad feeling and you don’t believe it, you’re just being deceived.
Makes sense, right? WRONG!
falcon,
What’s interesting to me is that there are many, many Mormon men claiming to be THE prophet. Many different sects, all with their own spin on what Joseph Smith started. Which is basically what all sects of Mormonism are doing. What about Matthew Gill in Great Britain? His story is that God told him to restore his gospel and bring forth the plates which hold the history of the inhabitants of the British Isles. Sound familiar? He believes in Joseph Smith too. The angel moroni (if I’m remembering correctly) came to him as a boy, yada, yada, yada…just like Joseph Smith. Are we to follow him? Does he actually have the truth? I’d like to ask the Mormons posting here just what they think about Matthew Gill? Mormons think that because there are so many different sects of Christianity that that proves Mormonism is true. Yet they don’t look in their own back yard to see just how many sects of Mormonism there are. By this logic, Mormonism is false then. The Church of Christ thinks the LDS and FLDS sects are apostates. The LDS thinks everyone but themselves are apostates. Who has the true religion that Joseph Smith started? Which ones are right? Doesn’t it make more sense just to follow the true and living Christ of the Bible? I’ve asked this question before, but I’m going to ask it again, “Why do Mormons even use the Bible at all?” The way it is trashed, torn apart and thrown under the bus by Mormons is astonishing to me.
Ralph,
I understand being Busy, I am also.
You claim you have answered all our questions, I dont agree that you have and you can say you have, but remember their are new people here that have not seen your replies and have asked you questions.
So no matter how busy you are, maybe you could answer these two questions since I know Kate asked one and has never seen you reply and if you have answered them before I honestly dont remember.
1. Why do you claim to believe the Bible if you dont fully trust it and in order to prove what you believe is true, you must keep trashing the Bible? If you dont fully understand, let me explain, LDS claim to believe and use the Bible, but when asked questions, they tend to attack the Bible and say, this verse says, or this happened or that is wrong or whatever. It’s always brought back to something is wrong with Gods word. If thats the case why even believe.
2. LDS love telling us Christians that the BoM must be true and the LDS church is true since we Christians have so many denominations, yet LDS seem to avoid this question when we ask them. Why are their so many “denominations” in the LDS church? And since they all agree that JS is the original prophet and they believe the BoM, then which branch is correct and why.
Now Ralph, I honestly dont recall you ever answering this question. And the Freds and Clydes on this blog simply will not either. If they claim they have, then tell me exactly what topic it was that you gave and in depth reply to these questions as I will go back and read the answer.
fred,
“I think it is you who needs to examine where you got this information and to study its accuracy.”
President Hinckley was interviewed just before the 2002 Olympics. The following is a transcript of the interview which can be viewed on youtube.
REPORTER:
IN MY COUNTRY, THE.WE SAY THE PEOPLE’S CHURCHES, THE PROTESTANTS, THE CATHOLICS, THEY PUBLISH ALL THEIR BUDGETS, TO ALL THE PUBLIC.
HINCKLEY:
YEAH. YEAH.
REPORTER:
WHY IS IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOUR CHURCH?
HINCKLEY:
WELL, WE SIMPLY THINK THAT THE.THAT INFORMATION BELONGS TO THOSE WHO MADE THE CONTRIBUTION, AND NOT TO THE WORLD. THAT’S THE ONLY THING. YES.
Here’s your past prophet, in public saying that the records are not open. Hinckley was a LDS prophet and his public comments are not the “ranting of someone unhappy with God’s Church” The records are not even open to the tithe payers fred. I challenge you to go to your bishop tomorrow and demand to see the LDS church’s financial records. Get back to me on that OK?
RickB,
can you show me where I said that because an atheist agreed with me that it proved the BoM true? I never said that. I was showing you that your little scenario of a judge, you and an LDS member discussing the existence of one God or many Gods from the Bible with the judge ruling in your favour is not accurate. I have been in a situation like that and the outsider (in this case an atheist) said that we proved our case from the Bible and that the other party was now back-tracking on their beliefs to try and prove us wrong. But that is one example, there may be others out there where an inpartial third party may agree with the Trinitarian. And BTW, the ‘judge’ needs to be impartial like and atheist. Muslim, Jew, etc and not a Christian or any other related religion to be a true test of impartiality.
As far as me giving an answer and you not agreeing with it – if I have given a plausible answer, it does not matter if you agree with it or not, it can still be true and your answer could be wrong, or vice versa, that is what plausible means. But why should I answer a question I have given a plausible answer to umpteen times a year? Since my time now is at a premium I will just be answering some questions I have an answer for that I have not answered before unless I think its best otherwise.
As far as the Bible and history – have you heard of historical fiction? That is what many atheists say the Bible is, just like Forrest Gump. Can you prove otherwise?
Falcon,
Can you show me where I found something wrong with/in the Bible and say that it logically proves the LDS church true? I haven’t have I? You and many others ask how can we believe in the LDS church because of different problems; for example JS and his polygamy; no archaeological evidence for the BoM; contradictions and mistakes in theBoM; etc.
I show you something similar in the Bible; for example the 2 prophets Abraham and Jacob (Israel) and most likely many more in the OT practised polygamy; there is very little evidence of Biblical archaeology when it comes to the Israelite history like Jerusalem has been shown to be a city kingdom not an empire as the Bible states, Sodom and Gomorrah cannot be found, there is no evidence of a world wide flood, etc; there are many contradictions and mistakes in the Bible including at least 3 insertions that we know of.
Now if you have difficulties with me believing the BoM then why do you believe in the Bible if they both have the same problems? That is my point, you are showing a double standard if you cannot accept that I can believe in the Bible and BoM despite the problems within them when you can believe in the Bible despite the problems there in. It does not prove the BoM true or false? I am just answering your question as to how I can believe in the LDS church when according to your ideology there is much that you can see wrong with it.
Kate,
I don’t care at this point in time as to what you believe, I know what the Trinity states. My point was that the lady said she believed in the Trinity but then at the end of our presentation she denied that Jesus was God to try and prove us wrong. Can you see a problem with that? And again, where did I say that because the atheist agreed with me that this proves the LDS church true? I was showing RickB that his scenario does not always play out the way he believes it will because I have been in a similar situation in real life and it turned out the opposite.
Ralph said
Funny you should say this, I was listing to an atheist call in show on the internet, the Atheist speaker told a caller, lets just say, you could prove beyond a doubt, Jesus was real, and you could prove all the prophecies in the Bible were true and really happened, this does not prove a God exists.
I say, wrong. If it were just any God, like the Mormon gods, or Islam or JW’s I would agree with the atheist statements. But the God of the Bible said He will tell us of things to come to prove who He says He is. Then He used people Like Moses and the prophets and said it was Him speaking to prove Himself. Then Jesus said these miracles He did were evidence of who He said He was. So the atheist is wrong.
Ralph said
That was a very funny Joke Ralph.
Like I said, I personally went to Israel and I saw all the evidence first hand, I meet the people, I ate the food, I even had pictures taken. So no Ralph, you are wrong.
As far as evidence for a world wide flood, I gotta say (cont)
(Cont)
The Flood and the Genesis account is the most attacked book and story of the Bible. Not surprising you dont believe it. Read the book, The Genesis Record by Henry Morris. Very in depth, detailed book on the Flood. Over whelming evidence exists.
Fred said
Name them, Chapter and verse. Back it up instead of just saying it.
I said
I meant to say Ralph, not Fred, sorry, so Ralph please back it up.