In the 2012 book Mormons An Open Book, Written by a Mormon, What You Really Want to Know, author Anthony Sweat gets right to the point:
“The gospel of Jesus Christ is this:
“1. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ,
“2. Repentance,
“3. Baptism by immersion by one holding the proper priesthood authority,
“4. Reception of the Holy Ghost (see Articles of Faith 1:4).“In the Book of Mormon, Jesus defines the gospel this way: ‘Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day. Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel’ (3 Nephi 27:20-21).” (25)
Dr. Sweat’s definition of “the gospel of Jesus Christ” is incomplete, according to Mormon leaders. Fourteenth Church President Howard W. Hunter said that the four points specified in Articles of Faith 1:4 “are only the first of all the principles and ordinances of the gospel…” In fact, in order to “stand spotless” before Christ at the last day, as presented in Dr. Sweat’s gospel definition quoted from the Book of Mormon, one must not only comply with the four “first principles” listed above, but “there must be a lifetime of compliance with the laws and commandments… The first principles alone are not sufficient: man is thereafter accountable in the eternal judgment for what he has done in life, whether good or evil. The atonement was for this very purpose, to bring about the resurrection and subsequent judgment of all men” (“This Is My Gospel,” Ensign, July 1973, emphasis mine).
Fifteenth Mormon Church President Gordon B. Hinckley often stated that the gospel was not complete without the ordinances performed in Mormon temples. This Church doctrine was deemed so important that the Church’s official newspaper, Church News, reported Mr. Hinckley’s statements on this at least six times between November 1996 and September 2004 (find references listed below).
Also consider General Conference teachings from two Mormon apostles:
“The gospel of Jesus Christ is the plan by which we can become what children of God are supposed to become. This spotless and perfected state will result from a steady succession of covenants, ordinances, and actions, an accumulation of right choices, and from continuing repentance.” (Dallin Oaks, “The Challenge to Become,” Ensign, November 2000)
“We are now being tried and tested to see if we will do all the things the Lord has commanded us to do. These commandments are the principles and ordinances of the gospel, and they constitute the gospel of Jesus Christ.” (L. Tom Perry, “The Plan of Salvation,” Ensign, November 2006)
The Mormon Church has even found a way to simplify the definition of “the gospel” for children while retaining its full meaning. In the February 2011 Ensign column “First Presidency Message” children’s section it says, “The word gospel means all the teachings and ordinances given to us by Jesus Christ and His prophets” (6).
Mormonism claims to have “the restored fulness of Christ’s gospel” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism 1:271, emphasis mine). A Mormon apostle once taught,
“By the grace of God, and through his mercy, we have had restored to us in this day the fulness of the everlasting gospel: all of the laws, ordinances, and principles by obedience to which we can be both saved and exalted in our Father’s kingdom. No other peoples have had so much of the light and truths of heaven poured out upon them as we have.” (Bruce R. McConkie, Conference Reports, April 1949, 90)
If Mormons believe this is true, if they believe President Harold B. Lee’s teaching that “[Moroni] announced to the Prophet… that the time was at hand for the gospel in all its fulness to be preached in power unto all the nations.” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Harold B. Lee, 75-76; brackets and ellipses in the original), why does Dr. Sweat essentially keep the fulness of the Mormon gospel under wraps? It might have something to do with the chapter in which this gospel is defined. Titled, “Are Mormons Christian?” this chapter seeks to convince readers that the answer is “Yes.” But if the fulness of the Mormon gospel was revealed it would be pretty clear that the answer is “No.”
Christian author and pastor Harry A. Ironside explained the Christian gospel like this:
“Commencing at the first verse of this precious and wondrous portion of Scripture [1 Corinthians 15:1-4], we read: ‘Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, with also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures’ (see Isaiah 53:5-6) ‘and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.’
“…the Biblical Gospel is concerning a Person…The subject of Paul’s gospel has not a word about anyone or anything except Christ. Perhaps we might say it also could be divided into four points…
“1. Christ died;
“2. Christ was buried;
“3. Christ has been raised again;
“4. Christ is the object for the hearts of His own.”
(“Dr. Ironside Meets With Two Mormon Missionaries: What Is the Gospel?” 1932)
The Christian gospel contains no temple covenants, no ordinances, no “lifetime of compliance with laws and commandments” for the needy sinner. The Christian gospel is full and complete in Christ alone.
—-
References for Gordon B. Hinckley statements about an incomplete gospel, Church News, weeks ending: 11/23/96 p. 3; 8/1/98, p. 2; 8/4/01, p. 2; 10/5/02, p. 2; 6/7/03, p. 2; 9/4/04, p. 2.
Mormonism is, first and foremost, a religious system.
It’s a religious system that has as its goal, the deification of men. To-this-end, there are millions perhaps billions of men made gods who have progressed through this system and who now rule their planetary systems with their goddess wives.
Is this covered in this new book?
To not cover this in depth, is lying by omission and an attempt to hide from someone wanting to know about Mormonism, its very essence.
So is this true; that men can become gods and that the male god and female goddess procreate spirit children to populate the worlds they rule?
There is nothing in the Bible about this neither the OT or NT. There is nothing in the history or tradition of the Christian church that would account for it and qualify it as something lost that was in need of restoration.
Two of the early sects of Mormonism that survive today (the Community of Christ, Church of Christ) have anything approaching this as their doctrine. In fact they more clearly represent Mormonism at its inception and have at least some resemblance to normative Christianity.
It is necessary that the Salt Lake City Mormon denomination keep under wraps what they believe. It is not all that unusual for people to join this sect not knowing what the fundamental doctrines are. The strategy is to get people in the dunk tank and keep them ignorant for a sufficient amount of time and then hope that they can get them through the temple.
The temple ceremony was such a turn-off that it had to be changed a couple of decades ago because it offended the sensibilities of members.
All someone needs to do is read through the Book of Acts in the Bible to know what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is.
I have no clue what you are talking about, Falcon. Man’s potential to become like their Heavenly Father is taught clearly and frequently by all the leaders of the church, and is contained in almost every lesson manual printed by the church. It is stated directly in the standard works of the church.
Quite frankly, if a person joins the church without knowing this truth this has got to be the exception, and a fairly rare occurrence. It is so much a part of everything we teach that to miss it seems virtually impossible.
As to the book, I have not read it, though I wouldn’t mind doing so. However, it seems to me that no one can accurately portray an entire book based on one single quote, which is what is being attempted here. Because of this I am inclined to dismiss what is being said about it; at least until I read it.
Shem,
Sorry to have to disagree with you but it’s a pretty common story that people join the Mormon church without knowing the whole “men to gods” aspect of the “restored” gospel. I guess it’s your opinion vs. mine regarding this.
For example, pick-up a copy of “Beyond Mormonism” by Jim Spencer. It’s his testimony of joining and then leaving Mormonism. Look specifically at pages 50-53. He hadn’t heard about men progressing to becoming gods until he had joined the church. His first hearing of it came in a Sunday morning priesthood meeting.
I don’t know if you were raised Mormon, but to a Christian, such an idea is a real turn-off. So where in the missionary lessons is this covered? I’d like to examine it and see how the subject is presented by the missionaries. I would think because becoming a god is the main feature of Mormonism, it would be emphasized and really promoted. Right?
Here’s the gospel of Jesus Christ. Man is separated from God by sin. We can’t close the gap between who we are and a holy God. God sent His only begotten Son that who so ever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. That’s it……period!
Knowing Jesus is the key to salvation. It begins and ends with Jesus. There is nothing more to it.
Mormonism is a false religious system.
This is from a presentation by Richard Packham who is quite active in the former Mormon community. Richard is no fool. In fact he’s a bright guy. This was revised about a year ago. There’s more to look at if someone is so inclined. I include the link at the bottom.
Mormonism includes many other unusual teachings which you will probably not be told about until you have been in the church for a long time. These teachings are not revealed to investigators or new converts because those people are not yet considered ready to have more than “milk” as doctrine. The Mormons also probably realize that if investigators knew of these unusual teachings they would not join the church. In addition to those mentioned elsewhere in this article, the following are noteworthy: NOTES
God was once a man like us.
God has a tangible body of flesh and bone.
God lives on a planet near the star Kolob.
God (“Heavenly Father”) has at least one wife, our “Mother in Heaven,” but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her.
Jesus was married.
We can become like God and rule over our own universe.
There are many gods, ruling over their own worlds.
Jesus and Satan (“Lucifer”) are brothers, and they are our brothers – we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father
Jesus Christ was conceived by God the Father by having sex with Mary, who was temporarily his wife.
http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm
We could get into a protracted discussion regarding what people know or don’t know about Mormonism, the Mormon church, Mormon doctrine, Mormon folklore and finally the Mormon gospel. We’re not only talking about those who have been recruited to join the Mormon church but also those who have been raised in the Mormon church.
Why is it that so many Mormons leave the church, finding it to be untrue, when they discover previously unknown to them facts that are contrary to what they have been led to believe?
The seriousness of this is the Mormon gospel total failure. Pick a sect of Mormonism and you will find a different restored gospel. Add to that the fact that the Salt Lake City sect has a history of prophets leading in whatever direction the wind in that City is blowing that day.
The end result is a gospel that can’t save nor can it deliver on any of its promises. It’s all about credibility and the prophets that have led the SLC sect are about as a confused bunch of people as one would ever want to find.
Notice in the list that appears in the article that nothing is said about “accepting” polygamy. Our Mormon friend Shem enlightened us on another thread that “practicing” polygamy wasn’t necessary to enjoy the full benefits of the restored gospel of Joseph Smith. “Accepting” polygamy, according to Shem, was sufficient.
Well if gaining the full benefits of the restored gospel is dependent on tithing, obedience to the Word of Wisdom and “accepting” polygamy, I’d think it would be mentioned. The restored gospel of Joseph Smith is not a simple thing. There are lots of sub-clauses in the contract. It seems to me that Mormonism, as pronounced by the Salt Lake City Mormon sect, isn’t as straight forward as presented in the above reviewed book.
I think this is known as “bait and switch”. In-other-words, a person is lured in by a low-ball price and then once the contract is signed, the small print comes into focus. As it turns out there is more to the deal than the prospect was led to believe.
I would guess that the W of W and tithing are at least whispered at. But I doubt very much if prospects are told about the “god” stuff or “polygamy”. These are fundamental to Mormonism.
FALCON
I still find it difficult to believe that anyone can attend meetings very long and not run into this doctrine; it is just to common.
For instance, in the Sunday school manual for the 12-13 year old class, lesson 8, part 7, it quotes Dalin H. Oaks where he refers to exaltation as a godlike state.
Also, in the Manual of Gospel Principles, in the last chapter, entitled Exaltation, we read that “Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.” This clearly teaches the doctrine. (Of course, chapter two in this same manual makes it clear that we had a heavenly mother as well, as it declares we were sons and daughters of heavenly parents.)
Finally, in the manual Preach My Gospel we receive yet another statement of the doctrine. Understanding that this manual is to prepare missionaries, we look in Chapter Three: What do I study and Teach? This chapter is divided into five lessons, and the second is titled ‘The Plan of Salvation. In this lesson, describing the blessings available in the Celestial Kingdom, it states “They will live in God’s presence, become like Him, and receive a fulness of joy.” So, missionaries are told to study this doctrine, and teach it.
So, with all this, how is it that people can claim not to know the doctrine until years later? The odds are incredible; especially considering it is stated directly in the Doctrine and Covenants.
Maybe in the past this was true, but in at least the last twenty years the doctrine has been commonly taught.
The seriousness of this is the Christian gospel total failure. Pick a sect of Christianity and you will find a different gospel. Add to that the fact that the Catholic sect has a history of leaders leading in whatever direction the wind in Rome is blowing that day.
The end result is a gospel that can’t save nor can it deliver on any of its promises. It’s all about credibility and the Christian Leaders are about as a confused bunch of people as one would ever want to find.
Falcon
What list?
I find your slurs and innuendoes amusing.
You said: “I would guess that the W of W and tithing are at least whispered at.”
This would imply that you believe these things are not on the forefront of discussion, but are among those things that are ‘hidden’ until after the person is roped in.
The problem with this is that one must accept and live the Word of Wisdom before they can be baptized. Also, tithing is taught very early on, as it is required to enter the Temple, a one year goal for new members.
Speaking of the Gospel: Everything that a person needs in order to gain exaltation is taught to them by the missionaries. All the other stuff that people like you want to make out as essential and fundamental to the gospel doesn’t really matter. It is all extra, and it is there for those who truly seek truth to find and understand. The sad thing is that today it is also there for those who have no desire to learn truth to find, making it all too easy for them to twist the true meaning and mislead those not yet strong enough to handle it.
Shem,
My question is, “Where does this doctrine appear in the Mormon Missionary Lessons”?
My point is also that other sects of Mormonism do not teach and or accept the doctrine of progression to godhood or polygamy. Neither of these were taught when the Mormon religion was founded. In fact monotheism and monogamy were the rule and in the original BoM.
You also missed my point that in the book reviewed above, none of the doctrines regarding progression to godhood or accepting polygamy appear as part of the Mormon SLC gospel.
Shem said
Shem, you hit the nail on the head when you speak of the LDS gosepl. I could not have said it better.
I know your referring to the Mormon gospel even if your not bold enough to say it out loud.
I know your not talking about the Bible because if you were, you simply cannot back this up and prove it. Secondly the Bible says many things. The Bible tells us,
The BoM does not teach this. The Bible says
The Bible also says
These are only a few verses that do not teach the Mormon Gospel of doing all these works to be saved.
As a side note, When LDS teach we can and will become gods, Funny thing is, God the father says, I know of no other gods, not will be formed before me, or after me. According to God, we cannot become a god.
Now here are some things that Mormonism teaches. (Cont)
All of this info about Exaltation is taken from the Book Gospel principles chapter 47.
If we prove faithful to the Lord, we will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven. We will become exalted, just like our Heavenly Father. Exaltation is the greatest gift that Heavenly Father can give his children (see D&C 14:7).
Under the “what is Exaltation” heading we find it teaching that God IS A Creator. This implies more than one creator or more than one god, the Bible refutes this.
Then it says, He is the Father of spirit children. The Bible does not teach that God births Children, it does not teach He is married, Many people from Non-believers to various religions teach we are ALL children of God. Sadly this proves people do not know the Bible. The Bible very clearly teaches we are all Gods creation, but we are not all Gods Children.
Here the Bible teaches Not every one is a Child of God, some are Children of the Devil, Jesus even says, Your father the Devil.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
(Cont)
The rest of John1:12
Requirements for Exaltation
The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32-34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and understanding of the truth; and ‘live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God’ ” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).
To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey his commandments.
He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:
1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.
2. We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
3. We must receive the temple endowment.
4. We must be married for time and eternity.
In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to–
1. Love and worship God.
2. Love our neighbor.
3. Repent of our wrongdoings.
4. Live the law of chastity.
5. Pay honest tithes and offerings.
6. Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.
7. Speak the truth always.
8. Obey the WoW
(cont)
9. Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
10. Keep the Sabbath day holy.
11. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
12. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
13. Have family and individual prayers every day.
14. Honor our parents.
15. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
16. Study the scriptures.
17. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.
Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow his direction in our individual lives.
Above it tells us to read Alma 34:32-34, because it claims to tell us (The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now) This is what Alma says:
This does not say one thing about how to be exaltated.
Now we shall breakdown the rest by section and ask, can you really do this.
LDS teach
Our faith in him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey his commandments.
That great and all, but lets add to that
The LDS Church manual Gospel Principles states, “To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord” (1992 ed., p.125).
So unless we keep the commandments of God we are not fully repentant. This is a serious problem because people on their death bed cannot be saved. And we read in the Book The miracle of forgiveness
Spencer W. Kimball, the 12th President of the LDS Church, declared, “There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of the sin” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.163.
12th President Spencer W. Kimball said, “Christ became perfect through overcoming. Only as we overcome shall we become perfect and move toward godhood. As I have indicated previously, the time to do this is now, in mortality” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.210).
Repenting of only some sins never results in complete forgiveness.
Page 212 of The Miracle of Forgiveness reads, “…incomplete repentance never brought complete forgiveness” (12th President Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.212).
We are taught:
He commands us all to receive certain ordinances: The HE is God the father. Does HE really teach this in the Bible? We are taught HE teaches we must:
1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.
2. We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
3. We must receive the temple endowment.
4. We must be married for time and eternity.
This is very simple on these 4 parts (cont)
(cont)
Show me chapter and verse from the Bible where it teaches this.
Then we are taught
In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to–
1. Love and worship God.
2. Love our neighbor.
3. Repent of our wrongdoings.
4. Live the law of chastity.
5. Pay honest tithes and offerings.
6. Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.
7. Speak the truth always.
8. Obey the Word of Wisdom.
9. Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
10. Keep the Sabbath day holy.
11. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
12. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
13. Have family and individual prayers every day.
14. Honor our parents.
15. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
16. Study the scriptures.
17. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.
I’ve read the Bible Cover to cover many times, I do not recall ever reading these commandments:
4. Live the law of chastity. 8. Obey the Word of Wisdom.
9. Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them. 11. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
12. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
13. Have family and individual prayers every day.
17. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.
If I must do these things in order to be saved or exalted please show me Chapter and verse. Seems pretty simple thing to ask. (cont)
(cont)
Then to say I must obey the sabbath, then let me ask this, Why did Jesus break the Sabbath many times over and give an example of How King David and his men did it, and how the High Priests in the OT did it every Sabbath. Jesus was Clear, the Sabbath is for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Then as far as these two goes,
15. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
16. Study the scriptures.
What if your on your death bed and cannot do this? And the Bible only tells us to preach the Gospel, it does not say, do it by example. So please show me from the Scripture if I am wrong, if I am not wrong, then how can you be sure your view is correct if you cannot prove this from the Bible? Rick b
Shem,
I think Rick has done a masterful job of nailing exactly what the Mormon gospel is and your attempt to make it sound like I’m making something up is hilarious. We can read what the Mormon church and its prophets have and do put out. Your criticizing your own church and leadership when you take your empty pot shots at me.
You do a very poor job of defending Mormonism; especially the Salt Lake City version of the religion. All of the former Mormons who have been on the inside know the program as they testify concerning it. All I can say is that you’re living in a dream world of your own creation. We get Mormons such as yourself showing up here from time to time and it’s apparent that they are living in some type of Mormon parallel universe.
If you want to deny the Gospel of Jesus Christ as it was delivered to the disciples once and for all and presented clearly in the NT that’s your loss.
This is the Gospel of Jesus Christ regardless of what denomination someone belongs to.
In the Book of Acts the Phillippian Jailer asks Paul and Silas, “Sirs, What must I do to be saved?” They answered him, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household.”
(Acts16:25-33)
In his letter to the Ephesians Paul writes, “For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works that no one should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
The Mormon gospel is the creation of men. It has no power to save.
I can see we’ve hit a nerve with you because you know what we say is true and you can’t defend the Mormon sect you belong to.
Every once in a while we get a Mormon like Shem who graces us with his presence and his in-depth and “correct” view of Mormonism.
Typically these guys (and gals) have found a way to adjust past Mormon history and its teachings/doctrines to make the religion more palatable for them. This presents an added benefit to them to thrill and amaze the little old ladies and kids down at the wards. It’s just more of the “don’t look at the man behind the curtain” lever pulling to distract from the facts about Mormonism.
While there are different denominations within the Christian family, they’re all in the family because they all agree on the basics and the narrative. The various Mormon sects don’t even have the same gospel message. In fact they don’t even have the most fundamental of doctrines in common; that is “Who is God?”. Now I’d say that gets right down to the real nitty gritty.
The problem with following charletons and phoney prophets as our friend Shem does, is that there’s always all of this repair work that needs to be done. Because on the one hand we are told that these prophets hear from God and have a new and highly improved “restored” gospel. On-the-other-hand, these prophets sound like a crazy uncle who the Mormons try to keep locked in the attic.
Granted, in the two thousand years of Christian history, there have been some real flaky folks who have come along. The difference between Christianity and Mormonism is that as Christians we don’t have to defend, rationalize or explain away the craziness. We recognize the loose cannons for who they are.
In the end, Mormons are lost because their gospel message, whatever it may on any given day, is a false gospel presented by false prophets.
@ shematwater
I, like you, have wondered at the things said here that do not line up with what I have experienced in the Church. The information is there, it was out there 40 some years ago, when I started looking into the Church. Even if the information had not been available through the Church, groups like mrm have also insured the information was available. If someone does not know, it is because he did not take the time to learn about his own Church.
@ Rick B
Where in the Bible does it say that the books chosen, by the men that created your version of the Bible, are the only teachings of God? After all, other men have decided that Gods teachings are also in the books they have in addition to the ones in your version of the Bible. Other than you believing you follow the only true path to God, why is your man-made version of the Bible better than their’s?
Parkman, you need to know that LDS share a common ground with those who
look to the Bible as God’s Word, so instead saying things like , ” your manmade
version of the Bible” , might you simply do what your leadership has determined is the
right thing ,which is for LDS to regularly carry their Bibles to Sunday meetings . Since
your leadership has recommended the KJV version as their choice then that is just
fine . Now we may disagree with how certain verses are to interpreted but please don’t
resort to relegating the Bible to be some outdated news on who Jesus is ( for example).
If you are a Mormon in good standing , then you are using the same Bible as we can ,
so take your Bible and show where the gospel that Paul preached is the same one that
Mormon leaders have preached ever since their alleged appointed by Jesus to do so.
In other words since we’re here 1900 yrs after Jesus established His church and His
apostles preached the gospel of salvation to everyone they came in contact with , and
since His apostles also warned about future false apostles who would bring imitation
gospels, how do we know that Mormon leaders are not promoting such a gospel ?
Is Gal. 1:8 a valid criteria for us today to evaluate the teachings preached by anyone
who claims to be a prophet/apostle in these last days ? The following was in the
media pact for the opening of the Preston LDS Temple ( England) : ” The Church of Jesus
Christ of LDS is a christian denomination wholly committed to the New Testament
account of the birth,life,death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
@ Mike R
In all of your misdirection of an answer, you forgot to tell us where in the Bible it says that the books chosen by the men that created your version of the Bible are the only teachings of God.
RICK
Let us not be too ridiculous, please.
You claim: “And the Bible only tells us to preach the Gospel, it does not say, do it by example.”
Matthew 5: 16 “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.”
You also make the claim of several other things not being in the Bible. Here are a few examples.
Live the law of chastity
Matthew 5: 28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
Obey the Word of Wisdom.
Are you trying to tell me that God never gave man a health code to follow? What of the clean and unclean animals? What of the stipulation never to eat an animal that died of natural causes? It is all the same thing. These were health codes tailored to the time in which they were given. The Word of Wisdom is a health code tailored to our time. It is something that God has always done.
Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.
If you are claiming that we don’t have to listen to inspired prophets, then you are saying that we don’t have to listen to the Bible, as it was written by inspired prophets.
(I may reply to other when I have more time. Personally, I couldn’t care less if it is in the Bible or not. I do not restrict God on when or how often he can communicate with and inspire prophets, and I will accept the words of all such men.)
Parkman,
Mike was right in pointing out your hypocrisy when you wrote:
“Where in the Bible does it say that the books chosen, by the men that created your version of the Bible, are the only teachings of God?”
What’s this “your version” business. You really show your total ignorance every time you post on this site. Have you any idea what the Bible is about? Mike’s right, why do you carry around the KJV of the Bible? I suppose you think if it was good enough for the original Apostles it’s good enough for you, right? BTW why don’t you use the Joseph Smith version. Who holds the copyright on that? How did it come about? Did Joseph Smith use his magic rock there also? Perhaps he had a different hat to put the rock in than the one he used to conjure up the BoM.
But I see by your post you are trying, once again, to take us in a different direction that the subject of this thread. I believe that’s your strategy.
For those who haven’t bothered to go to the link mentioned in the article, I’d like to quote a couple of things that gave me a burning in the bosom.
“………neither faith or repentance is ever presented in Scripture as the ground of salvation. The Cross alone is that. Brought to it by the Spirit of God, the sinner will indeed repent. In its Biblical sense, repentance is self-judgement; the owning that one is lost and guilty, righteously deserving the wrath of a Holy God. Faith is trusting in Christ, whose finished work puts away sins forever. It is not simply crediting the statement that God exists, or that the historical Jesus was the Son of God.”
(continued)
Then you have the really ridiculous claim that “Why did Jesus break the Sabbath many times over”
Of course, Christ never once violated the law of the Sabbath. He did things that the fanatical Pharisees considered the breaking of it, but nothing that actually broke the Sabbath. He is the one that said “It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Many times he had to correct the false doctrines concerning the Sabbath that the Pharisees were teaching, but he never once violated the law as it was given from God.
Then we get your misunderstandings, and thus misrepresentations of what LDS leaders have said, which I am not going to get into at this moment. I will just give a very clear example, as it illustrates the point well. You quote Alma 43: 32-34, and then make this statement “This does not say one thing about how to be exalted.”
The problem is that you misunderstood their intent, for, as you quote, they said only that this passage tells the time in which we have to gain exaltation. (“The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now”) They did not say it told how to be exalted, only when. So, you have presented a misunderstanding of the words of the men you quote. Why should we trust the rest of your analysis?
Quite honestly, I think this will do. I am not really in the mood to argue who is right, or who is more biblical. I do not dispute that we teach what you claim in these last posts, but I do dispute your understanding of them (and I have read The Miracle of Forgiveness).
Falcon
When did I ever say you were making stuff up in regards to the gospel? I said your claim of concealment doesn’t seem credible considering the prevalence of the doctrine you mention, but that is a very different thing.
As to defending the gospel, I don’t feel the need to. When it is actually understood there is nothing to defend. However, when people like you are going about twisting things and presenting false understandings as the truth, then there is a need to speak up. I will not sit idly by and let you, or anyone else, spread false and destructive ideas concerning such a simple and beautiful thing as the Gospel of Christ.
So, don’t expect me to just roll over to your supposed superior knowledge and understanding. When you actually accurately portray the doctrines of the LDS church then I will have no more cause to post on these blogs. But it seems you are not likely to do so in the near future, so I will remain as long as I am able to correct what you get wrong.
Now, you can make all the claims you want. The truth is that I am more in line with the doctrine of the LDS church as taught by all the true prophets who have ever led it (from Joseph Smith to Brigham Young, to Spencer W. Kimball, to Thomas S. Monson) than you have been. And it seems your only reply to this is to simply say “He doesn’t know what he is talking about” and wave your hand to dismiss it. The truth is that you have no clue, and when faced with that prospect all you can do is attempt to ignore the source.
MIKE and FALCON
Parkman actually makes a very good point, which you seem set on ignoring.
Simply put, why is your collection of holly books more authoritative than any other? Or, what makes your collection complete and not someone else’s?
Now, you do a nice job of side stepping this by claiming that since the LDS also use the Bible the question is pointless. Of course this is ridiculous.
We do use the Bible, but we also use the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.
Then there are those that use the Apocrypha, and those that don’t.
So, why is it that the books you have selected to accept as part of the Bible are all the books that have to be accepted, and that no other books can?
Are the apocrypha holy scripture as some maintain? If not, why not? Who made that distinction, and where is the evidence to support it?
That is the question that Parkman raises, and it is, and always will be a valid question when someone makes the claim to a closed cannon, as Rick has done.
So, why is it closed? Why must all truth be found in the Bible that you except, and why can it not be found elsewhere?
Can any of you answer Parkman’s question, or are you intent on side stepping?
Shematwater,
Either you really are ignorant of what the Bible teaches, or you know what it says and dont care.
You said
Go back and read the O.T.
Who was the “health code” of clean and unclean animals given to and why? It was only given to the Jews. But now God said all these unclean animals were made clean and even the Jews to this day can eat them. God never gave a commanded about Coffee, tea, beer, wine or anything else. Also you and all Mormons show what hypocrites you are when you only follow that section of the WoW and reject the rest of the WoW. Also if you read the Bible, It tells us NOT TO JUDGE one another in what we eat or drink. And Jesus said, what goes into a mans mouth does not defile him/her.
Why would Jesus wait 1900 years then give this so call WoW in the form of just a mere suggestion as it is a good idea to follow, then later change it to a commanded we must follow? What about all those LDS who rejected it while is was merely a suggestion?
Well Shem,
You’ve been busy. It’s a real drag to try and defend Mormonism isn’t it?
Yea I know, we’re all misquoting, taking out of context, and misrepresenting those superstar Mormon prophets you’re so fond of. Sorry but as they say, that dog just won’t hunt.
This isn’t all that complicated and difficult to understand. The NT is very clear what the gospel message of Jesus Christ is. Mormonism doesn’t just get it a little wrong, it gets it way wrong. As I keep pointing out, other sects of Mormonism don’t buy the Salt Lake City program either. In fact at least one of them sees Joseph Smith as a fallen prophet. They aren’t all that smitten with the guy who claimed an angel threatened to kill him if he didn’t start marrying a lot of women.
Mormonism is built on a false premise; that is the myth of the “lost gospel”.
I don’t blame you for what you’re trying to do but you sound like a drowning man who is grasping for air.
The quotes that I and others have provided you from Mormon prophets and leaders and the facts we have listed are not too difficult to understand. The problem is you can’t handle the truth about your religion so you’ve filled it up with your own meaning.
Shem……you’re lost! You are without hope. You have rejected the Gospel of Jesus Christ for another gospel. You have chosen to follow men who aren’t even very good false prophets.
But I’m confident in God’s ability to break the heart of even the most hardened rebel.
Shem,
I’ll tell you what you and Parkman need to do. Go to a Christian bookstore and get a good book regarding how we got our Bible. In fact I’ve got a whole issue of Christian History magazine that is dedicated to that very topic.
I know why you guys have to slam the Bible and try to degrade it. The Bible doesn’t contain any Mormonism. So if you accept the Bible as God’s revealed Word, then Mormonism doesn’t work.
God has revealed His plan of salvation very clearly in the Bible.
Now you have to choose sides. You can’t have it both ways. Mormonism is another gospel. You may as well dump the Bible and just get your buzz off of some fictitious revelation. Look how totally unhinged the SLC version of the Mormon gospel is. First no polygamy. Then polygamy. Then no polygamy. Then no blacks in the priesthood. Then blacks in the priesthood. On and on……and you consider this “progress”. It’s Daffy Duck and Looney Tunes meet the Wizard of Oz.
I’ll go with the Bible and what is revealed about what we must do to be saved. That’s the gospel and I will stand on the Cross of Christ for my salvation. You on the other hand can head on down to the temple and get yourself dunked for some dead people.
You see, I am absolutely confident in the Cross of Christ. I am totally confident that the blood of Jesus Christ covers my sins. I know that there is nothing I can do to add to what Christ has already done for me on the cross. The Bible clearly teaches that man is separated from God by sin and that only God can provide the solution for our lost state.
Read the Book of Acts. The gospel is repeated over and over again. Read the Gospel of John. It clearly articulates who Jesus is.
I don’t know but I’m baffled why anyone would reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ for another gospel.
Shem, I was trying to address part of the issue Parkman made comment on . We believe
the Bible to be our written Standard in spiritual truth relative to a knowledge of God
and how to receive eternal life. I am satisfied with that Standard and I can
benefit from having it here today to evaluate the teachings of anyone who comes
claiming to be God’s prophet for these last days we live in. It seems false prophets
would try to get people to think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence
spiritually speaking , that since the Bible is from dead prophets therefore we need
a living prophet endorsed by God to relay new truths pertaining to salvation etc.
That’s a red flag since Jesus warned of a proliferation of false prophets in the last
days, those days are here. As I mentioned above your leaders have chosen to place
the Bible as the first in order of their Standards Works, that’s our common ground .
As far as a closed Canon is concerned : LDS leadership has decided that the
66 books in the Bible to be what LDS carry today . No use debating if there
should be more in that Bible , that’s what they agreed on for now, and THAT
is what God holds LDS ( and non-LDS) accountable for .Not much difference
with the BofM , you believe there is more that God has to be possibly
revealed later but you are accountable only for the 15 books in it now.
Yes God can certainly speak to man today, but I have to test what any
prophet claims God is saying thru them with the Bible I carry
Shematwater,
You and parkman keep harping on the issue of, how can we trust the Bible since men wrote it. Let me say this, How can you trust the BoM when a man wrote it? Lets break this down, the Bible, we have lots of evidence. 1800 prophecies found in the Bible, roughly 300 alone telling us about the Birth of Jesus, where he would live, how he would die, who would be at His death, Ect.
We have lands and people mentioned in the Bible that we can visit, and I have been to Israel. We can read and study the language of the Bible, Hebrew and Greek. I mentioned a book written by Chuck Missler and BoB Cornuke, you can find info here on the Book. http://www.khouse.org/articles/2004/503/
We also have the dead sea scrolls to back all this up, and we also have archeology and artifacts proving all of this.
Now as far as the Book of Mormon goes, We do not have any record of reformed Egyptian language ever existing, we dont have the golden plates, we dont have any BoM lands we can go visit, we dont have any BoM Language’s we can study and learn, The 1830 edition BoM has doctrinal changes compared to the newest version, and changes in general that are not noted in the BoM as being changed. So unless someone points these changes out, LDS are not openly telling people about them. We have no archeology and artifacts proving any BoM places, the Battle of hill cumorh has been moved a few times. JS had 9 first visions spanning years. And yet you want to claim we are wrong and we listen to mere men? Here is some LDS prophets that cannot agree as to what scripture I must use.
History of the Church vol 4, pg 461.
Then over in the book, Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith on pg 71 we read,
Now lets look at what the prophet, Joseph Fielding Smith said. Doctrines of Salvation vol 3, pg 198-199
So we find here two prophets disagree on just how important the BoM really is?
Now lets add to this what Ezra Taft Benson taught. He taught the 14 fundamentals of following the brethren. This was the SECOND: The Living Prophet is More Vital to Us Than The Standard Works.
So now we have 3 people, all prophets teaching different things. This leads to another question, if D and C is over the book of Mormon, why do the Mormon missionary’s not pass that out? And if the Prophet is over all the 4 standard works, why bother passing them out at all? Why not pass out books of the prophets teachings?
Plus if you guys want to say the Bible was written by man and cannot be trusted that brings (cont)
(cont)
Up the issue of the J.S.T. Of the Bible. How come LDS cannot agree on that version of the Bible? Some use only parts of it while saying the rest is corrupt. The D and C says that God commanded JS and Sidney Rigdon to complete the J.S.T of the Bible, God said IT WOULD BE FINISHED, yet I own a copy of the J.S.T and it claims it is not been completed, and some LDS claim it was while other claim it was not.
Now Shematwater and Parkman, again, you guys really need to keep bending over backwards to defend all these issues and try and speak on behalf of your prophets and church trying to explain away all these issues. And in the end, you will never be able to do it. You have no authority to speak on behalf of your church or speak for your prophets, so why should I listen to you over them?
Also lets just add this for fun. JS said, No man can see God and live WITH OUT THE PRIESTHOOD. So How did JS manage to have 9 first vision and claim to see God and or God and Jesus when he did not have the priesthood and then live to tell about it? O-yea, I know Shem and Parkman, you guys will tell me, I am wrong, you do have authority to speak on behalf of the church, none of these problems are really problems, and JS did some how have the priesthood when He had these nine visions.
It’s a matter of who someone is going to trust for their salvation.
I trust Jesus.
Who do Mormons trust? They trust Joseph Smith and themselves for their salvation.
Not only does the Bible take a hit in some of the Mormon sects, most notably the Salt Lake City branch and the FLDS, but God and Jesus do also. And so the gospel of Joseph Smith and his progressive revelation that God was really once a man, that men can become gods and that Jesus was just a favored son of the Mormon god and one of his wives, displaces the truth. Brigham Young, one of the esteemed Mormon prophets even taught that the Mormon god had actual physical sex with the Virgin Mary. Not content with that blasphemy, Young also taught that Adam was really the Mormon god. This is Mormonism on steroids. What Young taught cannot be denied nor can it be chalked up to his opinion or folklore.
It’s all total stupidity, nonsense and it’s amazing that people would reject God’s plan of salvation with what isn’t even good heresy.
Shem and Parkman, Here is a question for you guys, and I really suspect many other on here would like to here and answer on this question.
Why should any of us here listen to what you guys have to say? And why should we trust you guys?
Let me add to these 2 questions to help you better understand what I am asking.
Many Mormons have posted on this blog over the years. And just to give you guys an idea of what I have seen and read from Mormons on this blog, I can say, I am the longest running poster on this blog. I was here before it even began, I was posting on here when it was simply a weekly question. Out of the currant 53 questions, I believe it ended at 53, I have replied to all but two of them. Then when it turned into a blog, I have been here from day 1.
Also just so you guys know, I am not a Mod for this blog, I have no say in how they run it, I have never written a topic for this blog, and cannot edit anything and have zero access to getting behind the scenes as it were and doing anything.
Just letting you guys know in case you think I am some how involved and think I can change things or do things. Now back to my questions.
It seems Mormons cannot agree with one another, I have seen people post here claiming to be Mormons, they really defend their religion and sometimes act like Parkman, and not really answer anything, just babble. Yet I have seen two or even three people at one time claiming to be mormons and not agree on any given topic. We even pointed this out once, (cont)
(Cont)
Or Twice nothing how a Mormon named Helen did not agree with TJAYT and both of these guys could not agree with our Mormon Buddy Ralph. So if you guys cannot agree, and the prophets cannot agree, and you guys cannot always agree with the prophets and presidents, what makes you think we should trust you to know what your talking about?
Are you guys presidents in the church? Are you part of the quram of the 12? Have you written and published any books and had them endorsed by your church? If no to any or all of these, again, why should we listen to you?
Now I know before you guys even try and answer this, at the very least Parkman will avoid it, and simply say, Rick, Why should we listen to you or Falcon or Mike?
The Simple answer is, you dont listen to us, You read acts 17:11 and search the scriptures as the Bible says. Then as far as we go, we all have said it and will say it again. We speak of Jesus and the Bible, We look to what Jesus and the apostles said. So I might say, the way to be saved is, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
I quoted Scripture, Not, I quoted Mike, Or Falcon.
Now If I were to ask a Mormon how to be saved, They might say, Believe in Jesus, and do all these good works. And then proceed to give me a list of all these works I must do. Sadly as I have already shown, you guys cannot do them all, avoid some of them, and cannot show me from the Bible where I must Pay Tithes, obey JS, Obey the WoW, Etc. (cont)
(Cont)
Then I have been to the fairlds boards, I have roughly 700 plus posts from my years posting on that board. I have seen Mormons flat out say, They dont obey the WoW and even lie to be able to enter the temple. So again, if you guys cannot agree, why should I trust you over your prophet, or some Guy on Fair/farms board, or some Mormon Book author. Please tell me.
Shem and Parkman,
I want to add some more to what I said. If you read the Bible, Jesus and His apostles quote the O.T. and Jesus even goes back all the way to Adam and Eve in the Garden. So it tells me that if they can quote from the O.T. That means they trust it and so can I.
But here is what I am thinking, We read of an account of the tower of Babel in the BoM, so this tells me that if the supposed BoM people existed and were around back in the tower of Babel time, then how come Jesus and his apostles never quote from them if they are real? Now before you give some sort of answer, remember this, People in the BoM quote from the Bible as if they all knew each other, making mention of people like King David.
So logic states that these guys in the BoM knew of the people and places mentioned in the Bible, but yet as I said, the Bible never quotes from the BoM people or places. This tells me it was JS as many feel that simply plagiarized the Bible and put things into his BoM.
But I know you guys wont agree with that. So I trust the Bible because Jesus and His apostles, and Jews in general to this day still go back and read the Bible. When I was over in Israel, I stopped in at the temple mount institute of religious studies. I asked them this question about the BoM and the Bible. They replied with, we no nothing about the BoM, and their is no history proving it is real, and no places, or people or language to back it up. Why is that?
@ falcon, @ Mike R, @ Rick B
I asked you to show the verses in the Bible that says that God does not have any other teachings then you have in the version of the cannon of the Bible you use.
Again, you side step answering the question by misdirection.
You talk about everything except where God said in the Bible that your version of cannon was all there is. You even claim that because we use the same 66 books that it gives you some kind of authority, “As far as a closed Canon is concerned: LDS leadership has decided that the 66 books in the Bible to be what LDS carry today. No use debating if there should be more in that Bible, that’s what they agreed on for now”, even though you often complain that we believe that God has given us more guidance.
You even have restated my question so it becomes something I never asked,” You and parkman keep harping on the issue of, how can we trust the Bible since men wrote it.”
Then you use your lie about what I said again to prove me wrong, “Plus if you guys want to say the Bible was written by man and cannot be trusted”
In addition, if that was not enough, you add a question to confuse others into thinking that it is me that is not responding, “Shem and Parkman, Here is a question for you guys”.
Then you try to make it my fault that you are refusing to come up with the verse from the Bible, “at the very least Parkman will avoid it”.
@ falcon, @ Mike R, @ Rick B
Since you say, “I’ll go with the Bible and what is revealed about what we must do to be saved” and, “I am satisfied with that Standard” and, “It’s a matter of who someone is going to trust for their salvation.” I do not understand why you are not willing to show me the verse I ask for.
So, back to the question you keep walking around. As you say, “This isn’t all that complicated and difficult to understand.”
Where in the Bible does it say that the books chosen, by the men that created your version of the Bible, are the only teachings of God? After all, other men have decided that Gods teachings are also in the books they have in addition to the ones in your version of the Bible. Other than you believing you follow the only true path to God, why is your man-made version of the Bible better than their’s?
Parkman, you seem to trying to make a point that is in addition to the question you
pose, so might you just ask it plainly ? I honesty didnt fully grasp what you were trying
to say the first time I read your comment . Are you building up to tell us that we need
a living prophet who delivers new scripture for today ? As I said earlier the Bible is
my written standard for knowledge about God that leads to salvation. Do you have
any verses in the N.T. where the gospel of salvation which Jesus’ apostles taught was
not sufficient to grant eternal life ? All I’m saying is that we disagree with Mormons that
more new doctrines about God / salvation are needed today , our Standard is the Bible,
you have additional works in your Standard , so we’re going to disagree . I think one of
the main reasons that ministries like MRM are here is to provide people who may be
thinking about talking with the Mormon Missionaries can see the other side of the
story they present. I don’t know if I can supply you with verses in the Bible relative
to your question is is going to satisfy you. I just would testify to you that there is’nt
anything in the N.T. that would tell me that the gospel preached by Jesus’ apostles
was’nt sufficient to save those who embraced it —Rom 1:16. I believe that same
gospel still saves today. The N.T. is also a relevant criteria to use to detect false
prophets in these latter days. To sum this all up let me quote Pres. Hinckley when
he was asked about his belief in contemporary revelation and he said
[cont]
@ Mike R
Thank you for your testimony about your beliefs, and thank you, for saying that there is nowhere in the Bible that says the Bible is God’s entire gospel.
So we must conclude that the idea of Bible only is an idea made up by someone you believe to be a “true teacher”. A “true teacher who is adding the teachings of man to God’s gospel.
I wonder about how many others of your beliefs have been added by your “true teachers”.
@ falcon, @ Rick B
And what is your answer to,”
Where in the Bible does it say that the books chosen, by the men that created your version of the Bible, are the only teachings of God? After all, other men have decided that Gods teachings are also in the books they have in addition to the ones in your version of the Bible. Other than you believing you follow the only true path to God, why is your man-made version of the Bible better than their’s?
Hinckley said that LDS have a large body of revelation so , ” We don’t need much
revelation. We need to pay more attention to the revelation we’ve already received.”
[ San Francisco Chronicle 4-13-1997 web site ] . There are additional statements I
could share along that theme. This is how I view the Bible , there is so much contained
therein to keep a person busy mining it’s depths for his whole life . I can learn from it
about how to build a christian lifestyle and how great and Majestic my God is . The
Holy Spirit guiding my study and also giving me help in living a life that glorifies
God . So I don’t see any additional rev from some prophet in these latter days drawing
my attention away from more than what I have in the Bible. Now Mormon authorities
have said that they are the only true christians with the only true gospel today. But
in the Bible we are warned about false prophets/apostles and therefore the “gospel”
they bring must be detected or people get detoured away from the true gospel —
Gal.1:8-9 , and this problem continues to our day —Matt 24 :11 , Jesus said to
Beware—Matt .7:15
Parkman.
The reason I don’t answer your question is because it’s a dumb question! The Bible says that we should answer a fool in a manner he deserves. In your case I put it under “no reply”. You’re just too childish to even deal with. I say, go and figure it out for yourself. You could use the intellectual stimulation.
Parkman,
I have told you before, we do not quote men and have these so called true teachers you speak off. So again you are bearing false witness and its no wonder we don’t take you serious and want to talk to you. You don’t listen or care about what we say. We quote Gods word and say that is our final and ultimate authority. Not some man or pope. So either stop bearing false witness after you have been told a second time, or wonder we your called a troll and no one speaks to you.
Parkman, I’m always glad to give you a reason of the hope that lies within me -1Pt3:15.
You display a creative imagination with what I’ve said , but it’s not in my power to
convince you otherwise . That’s a job for someone far greater than I —1Cor 3:6-7.
@ Rick B, @ falcon
What false witness? You say you follow only the Bible, as God’s only teachings to us. Then you dance around being able to show where God said in the Bible that He would not give scriptural guidance that is not in your Bible. There is no Bible reference that says God will not add to His scriptures.
You then hide your inability of defending Sola Scriptura by telling the readers to look at me instead of looking at your inability to answer the question. Just like the definition “trinity”, “Sola Scriptura” is an addition made to God’s Word by man. And you have accepted it as if it came from God.
@ Mike R
I am not using creative imagination, I am just repeating what you say with clear words.
If “I don’t know if I can supply you with verses in the Bible relative to your question” does not mean that you are saying that there is no scripture in the Bible that says the Bible will be the only scripture, please take a moment and tell us what you wanted it to mean.
None of your interpertated teachings, only God’s teaching in the Bible will be satasfactory to say that Sola Scriptura is true.
Parkman, if you are going to quote Mike R accurately without interjecting your own “creative imagination” it would be more helpful to the conversation to quote his entire sentence: “I don’t know if I can supply you with verses in the Bible relative to your question [that] is going to satisfy you.” Your satisfaction is the subject of Mike R’s statement.