If you are like me, one of the most frustrating things in sharing your Christian faith is having the message rejected, sometimes even “in your face.” Recently I had a pair of Mormon missionaries come over to my house, unannounced. We had a very good one-hour conversation. The elder who had been on the field longer wanted to leave after 15 minutes, but the new elder expressed his desire of staying and engaging. It was a friendly dialogue. As they left, the junior elder (who, at 21, had admitted that he had just received his testimony earlier that year) shook my hand. He looked me in the eyes and said that no matter what anyone said, nobody was going to be able to convince him that his testimony was not true.
Talk about frustration. This missionary had no answers as to how he “knew” that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. He couldn’t explain why he “knew” the Book of Mormon was true except he had a good feeling. And how did he “know” that his testimony was valid? Well, he just did. How is it even possible to communicate in an intelligent manner with someone who holds fideism so close to his heart?
The answer to my frustration is found, very clearly I might say, in the first two chapters of 1 Corinthians. Consider what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1:18, 21, 25 (NIV): “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. . . . For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him; God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. . . . For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.”
According to the original Greek text, the word for “foolishness” is where we get the English word “moron.” Interesting choice of words, wouldn’t you say? According to the Bible, people left in their natural state are “morons.” Now, I’m not saying Mormons are morons. (Have you ever slipped on your computer and written “moron” instead of “Mormon”? The spell checker just won’t catch the mistake!) However, left to the unbeliever’s natural state, the cross and the heart of Christianity’s message will be rejected 100% of the time as being foolish. It just doesn’t make sense to them. This has been confirmed by the many conversations I’ve had with dozens of missionaries and thousands of other Latter-day Saints.
Paul goes on. He says in verses 27-30 that “God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.”
On the surface, the cross isn’t very exciting to those who believe that, somehow, their good works must be added to the payment owed due to sin. Even though Christ has paid it all, we naturally believe that somehow we must make our contribution, even if it just ends up being 1% of the total. But desiring to make a “contribution” means that a person has not fully grasped the idea that nothing more is owed once the gift has been accepted! Notice, Christ is “our righteousness, holiness and redemption.” It’s His work, not ours, that is needed. The debt is fully paid yet there is nothing you did to earn it.
In chapter 2, Paul explains that it wasn’t through earthly wisdom that he shared the gospel with the Corinthians, but rather “with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power.” Why? In verse 5, he explains “so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.” Otherwise, the individual would have room to boast on his or her own accomplishments. (See Ephesians 2:8-9.)
Be careful, because Paul is not saying that we should walk up to Mormons, touch them with a spiritual magic—no words necessary—and all of a sudden they will grasp the true gospel. This concept is certainly not supported in how he shared the gospel in Jewish synagogues or at Mars Hill in Acts 17. Verse 7 is important here in explaining “God’s secret wisdom,” which “has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.” In the Greek, the word “predestined” is used here. Translate it as you will, but understand that God’s sovereignty is the key for people to be able to know God. “God’s secret wisdom” will remain hidden unless, as verse 10 says, “God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.”
Do you grasp this? It’s hard, isn’t it? After all, if I had my way, every missionary and Latter-day Saint with whom I come into contact would comprehend the message of Truth that I’m trying to share. But Paul says I wasn’t ever supposed to understand how this all works. He said that just as no person can understand his own thoughts like the person himself, so “no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God” (v. 11).
For verse 13, let me quote the Contemporary English Version, for I think it grasps the concept of what Paul was communicating better than the KJV, NIV, and NASB: “Every word we speak was taught to us by God’s Spirit, not by human wisdom. And the same Spirit helps us teach spiritual things to spiritual people.” In order to be able to understand, those recipients must have wisdom—spiritual and not earthly. As verse 6 says, a person must be spiritually “mature” to understand the wisdom of God. Spiritual wisdom, not natural wisdom, is needed to fully understand this incredible message.
Finally, the killer point comes in verse 14: “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
How many ex-Mormons have you met who have said something like this: “For all those years, I just didn’t understand the gospel. Then (blank) happened and all of a sudden it made sense. How did I not see this before?” The answer, my friend, is found in these first two chapters of 1 Corinthians. The Holy Spirit is in charge of “secret wisdom.” The key to unlocking that secret wisdom involves more than just verbally sharing your Christian faith. Prayer on our part, both during and after the evangelistic encounter, will go a long way! After all, we’re not involved in a conflict of flesh and blood but with things involving the spiritual realm. (See Ephesians 6:12.)
I have to say, as the missionaries walked away, I silently admitted to God that I was frustrated. But as my friend Bill McKeever likes to say, “We’re only in sales. God is in production.” When presenting the gospel, some of us are involved in planting seeds and others are in charge of watering, “but God made it grow” (1 Cor. 3:6). I have been commissioned to present truth to the lost, however that might be, but I must always remember that it’s the Holy Spirit’s job to bring people to Him. I encourage you to continue sharing your faith and don’t let rejection affect you personally. You just never know who God is going to touch next, even if it’s not in your presence!
One thing that is not pointed out in any of the blogs on this site is why we needed to fall. I have heard from some that we were to spend our whole lifes’ in the garden of eden. To me as a mormon our fall was part of God’s plan. We needed to know good and evil, joy and happiness. When we fail to see the others position we might wonder who is the fool.
http://www.mrm.org/fall-of-adam
http://www.mrm.org/fall
Your personal perspective has been addressed in these sites. Read these, then please re-ask the question in a way that directly addresses one of the points made therein. This will help us understand what you do not understand about the Christian perspective of the fall.
Clyde,
Your question shows your presupposition of Mormon doctrine. You assume WE needed to fall. You also assume we NEEDED to fall.
In Mormonism, it starts with man, and is for man: “[God’s] work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.” – God is here for man.
The Bible starts with God, and everything is for His glory: “For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.” ~Rom 11:36 AND “Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth’s sake.” ~Psalm 115:1 – man is here for God’s glory.
Knowing then that everything (man included) is for God (a rightfully humble position), can we begin to even ask the correct question. NOT why did we need to fall, but rather, why the fall?
Todd Friel answered it like this: ” In order to manifest His attributes of mercy, grace and loving-kindness, God created a perfect world knowing that man would fall into sin and commit evil acts. The result of our sin is death, but God is rich in mercy, grace and loving-kindness and He sent His beloved Son Jesus to die for sinners to save them from the punishment they deserve for their sins. If there was no sin, we would never see God’s amazing kindness demonstrated in Jesus.”
Eric,
As I read the article you wrote I couldn’t help but thinking that in some ways your points are what the cults use as reasons why we don’t accept, endorse, buy-into and climb on board their spiritual/religious bandwagon.
I’ve read, on this blog, where Mormons will use such phrases as “the wisdom of men” to attack the Church Fathers and in particular any one of the Councils that were held during the first four hundred years of Church history.
Cultists are pretty good at mining for Bible verses to bolster their heresy and reasons why it’s rejected. They’ll even get into ideas regarding Satan blocking the understanding of those not willing to accept their heretical and aberrant revelations, visions and/or doctrines.
But it’s a constant question with me; why some get it and why some don’t. “Get it” meaning our separation from God because of our sin. Our need for a Savior who has paid the price for our sins. Finally, the act of contrition or repentance and receiving of the gift of eternal life that God is offering.
In Ephesians Paul makes use of the word “election”. Not to turn this into a debate over what that actually means, but it certainly means something in regards to salvation. I do feel chosen by God. I didn’t come to Him on my own volition. The Holy Spirit convicted me of my sin and need for a Savior. I responded in faith. Did I respond on my own or was it an act of God’s grace that prompted me or in stronger terms, “made me” respond?
Good question and one I don’t have a clear answer on. But it really doesn’t matter, does it?
I feel blessed by the grace God has afforded me in drawing me to Himself and further providing the grace for me to persevere in my walk with Jesus. There’s no way I could sustain it on my own.
Falcon, it’s true that some people, such as the Mormons, will say that we cannot “understand” their spiritual system because we’re not one of them. In effect, they are saying that it is impossible to “get” this thing called Mormonism until you join. I just had a Mormon tell me this a few days ago. In addition, Bill had a missionary tell him (in Bill’s front room, no less) that he was too prideful because he wouldn’t pray according to Moroni 10:4 and get baptized. If only he joined, he somehow could understand. Regarding my article, the key verse in the passage is 2:14: “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” Yet, the last part says, “we have the mind of Christ.” How can we get the mind of Christ? According to John 8:31-32, it’s holding to His teachings. When this happens, Jesus said, “you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” I think it all starts with attitude. A person can be stubborn and believe whatever she wants. I have met many, including Mormons, who fall into this camp. They’re happy with whatever they think they have. However, when we look at the evidence of Mormonism, it departs radically from the Bible. But if anyone wants the truth, what better place to go than God’s Word, the Bible, and discover the true teachings? And then, Jesus says, you will know the truth! Certainly let’s not get all hung up on “election,” “calling,” etc. Somehow, though, in a mysterious way, God has a way to open eyes, no matter how inadequate or eloquent I think my words are. We ought to continue to evangelize in such a way as if what we say is all that a person will get in order to find the true God whom we worship, as defined in our Bible.
I guess there’s all kinds of reasons why people don’t believe something. Why don’t people believe that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in the killing of JFK? Sometimes the truth is just not acceptable to some people. There has to be a dark sinister plot or the simplest explanation just isn’t complex enough to be believable.
There are two parts to our efforts with Mormons. First of all getting them to accept as fact that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God, that the LDS church is not God’s one true church on earth, that the current prophet is not God’s prophet and that the BoM is a story that bears no resemblance to historical fact. The second part has to do with them acknowledging the true nature of God, of man and God’s plan of salvation.
I don’t know what’s more difficult; getting them to see the truth about Mormonism or getting them to see the truth about who God is?
The interesting thing is that Mormonism has a really tough time holding on to members or getting the majority of the people on their rolls to not be inactive. The market niche of those people in the population who want to be involved in a demanding religious system like Mormonism is pretty small. On top of that, Mormonism has to deal with the Watch Tower gang for basically the same type of people.
The former Mormons who post here might have a better handle on what the thinking is like for those folks who are arrogant true believing Mormons or those who are naive believing Mormons. Having never been in a mind set like that it’s difficult for me to relate to it. Oh maybe I can relate a little having been raised a Catholic in the days when Catholicism was fairly hard-core. But I think even at that it couldn’t even begin to compare with the Mormon culture.
The problem Eric, is that the Mormons use this same argument, and that is probably what the young Elder you spoke with will connect it to and hold on to as his reason for continued belief. Some examples from Mormon History,
After reading the above verses from the Bible, Joseph F. Smith said this on June 2, 1895:
Again, after reading the same verses from the Bible,
There are many more examples, but you get the idea.
Yup, I was kind of figuring the Mormons used the same type of approach in explaining why people don’t jump on their bandwagon.
The fact of the matter is that Joseph Smith was well versed in the Bible and had exposure to Evangelical Christian Revivalism. He heard the sermons. He knew how to co-op the lingo. So what the dude and the dudes that followed him did was come-up with their own religion with stories of visions and revelations and appearances from heavenly beings, develop some really weird doctrine and wrap it all up in the language of the Christian church.
That’s why people get fooled into thinking that Mormonism is no different than the First Lutheran Church down on the corner. It all sounds the same. It’s not until a person starts peeling off the wrapper do they see the extraordinary differences. Cults do this all of them time. It’s their MO.
I know why the missionary elder wanted to bail-out on Eric after fifteen minutes. The jig was up!
We should never ever feel down or disappointed in ourselves when we proclaim the good news and it is not received. God does not want us to be burdened with that self-inflicted guilt, He has freed us from self-centered attitudes such as that. If God calls a woman to move to Timbuktu and proclaim for 20 years and nobody receives her, it should sadden her to watch the massive self-destruction but that should be entirely overshadowed in the joy that rests in the hearts of the redeemed. Lost man does not save lost men, God wholly saves lost men and all praise be to the one true God who has undeservedly graced us with His mercy.
You know, this article makes a very good point. Those who are in their natural state just can’t grasp the truly ennobling and beautiful nature of the gospel. Left in their natural state, the gospel will be rejected 100% of the time as being foolish. It just doesn’t make sense to them. This has been confirmed by the many conversations I’ve had with dozens of mainstream Christians.
At a casual glance the gospel isn’t very exciting to those who believe that, somehow, they need do nothing to gain salvation. Even though Christ has declared that he will judge us on our works, people naturally don’t want to be held accountable for their actions, even if our personal accountability is only a small percentage of the final judgment.
In chapter 2, Paul explains that it wasn’t through earthly wisdom that he shared the gospel with the Corinthians, but rather “with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power.” Why? In verse 5, he explains “so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.” So why do so many Christians demand that the gospel be proven through men’s wisdom, while at the same time rejecting the testimony of the spirit. Just as the missionary mentioned knew the truth by this power, they can too; but they reject it.
Be careful; because Paul is saying that we are to teach by the spirit, relying on God to show forth his power to the convincing of men, for men can only know of God if God reveals himself to them. He is not advocating the eloquence of learned public discourse, but the simplicity of an honest testimony.
How many members have you met who have said something like this: “For all those years, I just didn’t understand the Bible. Then I learned of Mormonism and all of a sudden it made sense. How did I not see this before?” It is because they opened their hearts to the Holy Spirit, who is in charge of “secret wisdom.” We can do nothing ourselves to help others learn this wisdom. They must be ready for it, and the Spirit must teach them. However, prayer for those who are seeking goes a long way, and our instructing and clarifying the scriptures will also help.
I will say that I am always frustrated when people refuse to see and understand the truth. But I always try to remember that I cannot force understanding. I am called to teach the truth of the gospel to those who sit in darkness. It is up to them to follow the spirit to the light.
Shem wrote:
“I will say that I am always frustrated when people refuse to see and understand the truth.”
Hay brother, I am more than willing to see and understand the truth but the problem is you don’t have any. What you have is a false prophet who produced a false ever changing gospel, with a false god. My question to you is why don’t you understand that? It’s obvious.
We have former Mormons who post here who once believed as you now believe. They determined that that truth is not the truth. So what I want to know is why don’t you understand what they understand? That’s really the question that is being posed here.
Shem, I assure you that the testimony of the Holy Spirit is vital in understanding truth, and I
have never heard a sermon in my church that speaks otherwise .
Now, when you said that, ” Be careful; because Paul is saying that we are to teach by the spirit
relying on God to show forth His power to the convincing of men…” , that sounds about right
except when we see how Mormon Missionaries teach their contacts by using certain methods
in how they teach that ends up in a “convincing of men ” , but hardly is it truly a relying on the
power of God —unless His power is equated with sales techniques used by salesmen in the
corporate world.
Lastly, when you said , ” How many members have you met who have said something like this,
‘ For all those years , I just did’nt understand the Bible . Then I learned Mormonism and all of a
sudden it made sense. How did I not see this before? ‘ ”
So all of a sudden some people see that the Bible teaches Mormonism , is that your point here?
I find that very interesting considering that important doctrinal revealments by Mormon
leaders are not taught in the Bible , especially by those men who Jesus’ appointed to establish
His church and sent out to preach His gospel . How could people suddenly see Mormonism
clearly in the Bible when certain doctrines by Mormon leaders have been kept from
being widely available to most converts ? ( many Mormons have been shocked to learn
that J.S. had so many wives , for one example ) . I have to wonder how so many people
had a sudden “revelation” that the Bible teaches Mormonism , when there are so many LDS
that have stopped attending their Wards in recent years largely because of what they found out
about their leaders since 1830 that they we’re told of . Mormons in the recent past have asked
for an “unvarished history ” , but this has been difficult because they’ve found themselves in a
powerful religious organization whose hierarchy has been reluctant to open up it’s archives
to full disclosure . Thankfully , many of these sincere LDS are finding that they are not the
problem they have simply been detoured by a clever sales pitch from prophets into a religious
system that Jesus had long ago warned about would come . As such they realize that in fact it is
Jesus Himself who is the answer that they were inwardly longing for before being detoured
by these men . Thankfully more and more Mormons are “seeing” the truth that there is a
complete relationship with God available outside of Mormonism .
I, for one, am not concerned that Mormons like Shem want to use the same verses to say something to the contrary. It’s super obvious that this ought to be expected. I still can use the verses to support my point, gentlemen, even though Mormon leaders might try to claim the same for their views. Why? The Bible is very clear that truth-seekers should have the ability to tell the truth from error by doing what 2 Timothy 2:15 says, which is “study to show thyself approved unto God.” God’s Word, according to Hebrews 4:12, is like a double-edged sword to the person who rightly divides truth. First Corinthians 2:13 says that spiritual truths are taught in spiritual words, which comes only from the Spirit. It’s not magical nor is this rocket science. Unless you open yourself to listening to what the Spirit intends to convey, specially revealed to us through God’s Word, you will have nothing other than worldly wisdom to plant your flag. With this attitude, the Spirit of God will be ignored each and every time.
According to Matthew 7:17 and following, when we use godly wisdom, the good fruit should be obvious when compared to the bad. If the fruit of Mormonism (I’m talking about its doctrines and teachings that so clearly contradict the words of the Bible, not welfare projects and “Hands” organizations) smells rotten, then no amount of “secret wisdom” is even capable to making up for such a bankrupt system. Indeed, a number of former Mormons have had their eyes opened once they studied the Bible and recognized the differences between it and Mormonism. It was only then that they could understand what the Spirit of God was trying to teach. So, no, Shem, it’s not about “secret wisdom” but rather it’s about listening to the Spirit. Read the Bible as a child, not with the rose-colored glasses given to you by Joseph Smith and your leaders.
Thanks so much for this encouragement, Eric. Like you, I am often frustrated in conversations with members of the Church when nothing I share seems to make sense to them. I forget that changing their minds and hearts isn’t my responsibility. I should probably memorize 1 Corinthians 3:6 and recite it to myself before, during (silently, of course), and after every discussion I have with a Latter-day Saint.
I keep thinking about Micah Wilder’s testimony and that of his parents and siblings regarding their move out of Mormonism into a relationship with Jesus Christ. According to what they testify to, the Holy Spirit led them out of Mormonism and into a right relationship with God the Father through His Son Jesus Christ. Through the Holy Spirit’s leading, they discovered that the gospel of Mormonism is a false gospel.
Now how can that be? The parents were Mormons for thirty years. Lynn Wilder taught at BYU. Micah was on his Mormon mission when he began to study the Bible diligently and found the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yea, Mike R. is right to question Shem’s claim about these countless numbers of people who learn Mormonism and then the Bible makes sense to them. I believe that’s what we’d call an unsubstantiated claim especially as Mike rightly points out the numbers of Mormons streaming out of the LDS church.
I can just about bet that guys like Shem will have no understanding of what Micah is talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEkJlXU4Kr0
A definition of insanity I have heard is repeating an action expecting a different result. Well call me insane but here I go. One of you Evs a while ago posted a quote from William Lane Craig which I think fits here –
See William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics 3rd edition p. 43-44
So here we see an Ev Christian teaching that the testimony/evidence from the Holy Spirit trumps any evidence or logical/learned arguments that are contrary to it.
One thing that is not noted in the christian view is how good the knowledge of good and evil is serving us. Also what we would be without it.
Ralph,
Excellent post! Somehow I missed it the last time around.
The summary statements from the author as you presented in bold type are :
“I mean that the experience of the Holy Spirit is veridical and unmistakable………. ”
“……..that such an experience provides one not only with a subjective assurance of Christianity’s truth, but with objective knowledge of that truth; and that arguments and evidence incompatible with that truth are overwhelmed by the experience of the Holy Spirit for him who attends fully to it.”
And then you conclude by writing:
“So here we see an Ev Christian teaching that the testimony/evidence from the Holy Spirit trumps any evidence or logical/learned arguments that are contrary to it.”
Of course what needs to be decided is if this is the author’s opinion or do you think this Ev. Christian is speaking by way of revelation?
So my thoughts are:
1. Do you agree with this?
2. Have you experienced this?
I would say that I have. That is I have had feelings, impressions, the burning in the bosom as the 19th century Ev. Christians described it. I remember having it one time as I was reciting the Apostles’ Creed in a Lutheran Liturgical worship service. The truths of what I was saying warmed my heart as I had confirmed personally (to me) what the Church Fathers affirmed centuries ago regarding God and Jesus.
This was no manipulation of my emotions because Lutheran Liturgical worship services are rather solemn and not full of extraneous displays or outbursts of (emotions).
I was overcome with the truth that was being expressed just last night as I watched Micah Wilder’s testimony (link above) of how he came out of Mormonism and found new life in Christ; a personal relationship with Jesus. The truth of what Micah said was confirmed to me.
Sometimes it’s hard to sort some things out that might be the manipulation of the emotions or the creation of a certain ambiance that might be mistaken as a move of the Spirit. But that’s were the intellect, judgement and spiritual discernment play a part in the process.
I’m wondering Ralph if you are coming closer to that decision point of turning to God and receiving Jesus as your Lord and Savior? If you are understanding that God’s revelation is in His Word, the Holy Bible?
I pray you are.
Shem,
“This has been confirmed by the many conversations I’ve had with dozens of mainstream Christians.”
In your conversations with dozens of mainstream Christians, do you fully disclose all of Mormon doctrine and teachings? When you talk to them about God do you tell them who your god is? Do you tell them the rites and rituals of the Free Masons that you perform in your temples? Do you lay it all out for them? In truth? Or do you keep hidden the stranger parts for a later date, when you feel they are “ready” for it? Retention rates for LDS converts are very low. I too have been watching the Wilder family’s testimonies. I especially like Michael Wilder’s testimony about polygamy and Matt’s testimony about his first experience in the LDS temple. These “secret” things that are held back in Mormonism is what makes the religion deceptive. You can bet if it was all laid out by LDS missionaries and people like you having dozens of conversations , there would be absolutely NO baptisms of mainstream Christians. Christians would be able to see the Mormon religion for what it is.
Kate,
There’s also a major difference between “main stream” Christians and say Ev. Christians. In the midwest where I live, Mormonism isn’t a blip on the radar screen. When I’m out and about I’m always looking for MM and I can’t find any. The average Christian or even Ev. Christian doesn’t know that much about Mormonism or even the JWs and doesn’t really care.
Those of us who show-up here and post are a fairly rare breed of cat. We have a deep interest in Christian apologetics. This blog is really the only way I can engage Mormons in discussion and bring information especially to those Mormons who are starting to figure it out.
I’ve also been intrigued by the testimonies of the Wilder family. I think Micah is a good case study related to our topic at hand here. He was totally sold out to Mormonism. Had a big time testimony but when he was challenged by a Baptist minister to study the NT, his testimony of Mormonism fell apart. He recognized that Mormonism did not contain the truth of the Gospel. It took him about nine months to a year to process all he was learning but there came a point where his faith in Joseph Smith and the Mormon church collapsed under the weight of the evidence in the NT. Notice that he wasn’t studying @nti Mormon literature. He was studying the Bible, particularly the NT, which is about the most effective @nti Mormon literature there is.
Clyde said
You really have both lost your mind and really want to believe lies. First off you simply cannot show me from the Bible only where God set it up for us to fall, you must believe mere men that told you that, why you choose them over the Bible would be a mystery, but the Bible tells us that people willing choose to believe in lies.
Lets see here, what does the Bible say?
The Bible is clear, GOD COMMANDED Adam and Eve NOT TO EAT OF THE TREE.
Since LDS insist that we MUST OBEY GOD and follow HIS commands, why is it that this is the only command they feel we dont need to obey? Where in the Bible do you read God saying, I want them to fall, they must fall, it is required? It is not in the Bible.
Why would God tell humans that He (God) does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked. And Death is not talking about us just dying, it is talking about eternal damnation. Why would God want us to fall on purpose and therefore send people to the lake of fire for all eternity? Then say, I dont take pleasure in the death of the wicked?
Also The Bible tells us that God cannot Lie and it is impossible for God to lie. So if this is true, why would God command them to not eat of the tree, but in reality want them to? That cannot be supported by the Bible.
Clyde,
Let me add, do you bury you head in the sand or hide in your house and never watch the news?
You said
Micah Wilder Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNB9zp2jNjI
Get to about the four minute mark because that’s where Micah is asked about the process of reading and believing the Bible. He’s asked about the role of the Holy Spirit.
I think that’s what we are discussing here, right? So how could Micah, who had a testimony of the BoM et al, a temple worker prior to his MM, read the bible and then the Mormon testimony gets blown out of the water?
Interesting process.
falcon,
I can understand your interest in Micah’s story but I’m more intrigued by his parent’s story. They were converts. Micah, like me, was born into the religion and it was what he was taught. What makes any Christian turn from Christianity and commit to Mormonism? Listen to Lynn and Michael talk about things they had never heard of or things that bothered them such as polygamy. I honestly don’t think they would have even considered converting if the MM would have laid out the whole of Mormonism. The Bible IS the most effective @nti Mormon literature out there, at least it was for me. If Mormons would just look at the stuff published by their own leaders no matter how long ago, it’s not hard to put it together. Mormonism is a lie. Continuing revelation is a joke. It is really frustrating to talk to Mormons about false prophets and the problems with Mormon doctrines. What I find crazy is how the Mormons around me talk about Warren Jeffs and the FLDS beliefs. I always say that if they want to know what Joseph Smith was like just LOOK at Warren Jeffs. No one wants to talk about that.
Kate said
Kate, I’m willing to bet you a free diner cooked by me, (A private Chef) that Shem will say one of two things.
Either he will say, Yes I share everything and am open and honest with all doctrines. Or he will say, Milk before meat.
I have personally been to tour temple square in S.L.C. The Missionary’s would remove people from ear shot when I asked out loud open and honest questions. I have had MM’s sit in my house and when I asked them, what do you believe, they would say to me, tell us what you believe. I would share what I believe and then they would respond with, we believe the same thing.
Well thats a lie, they dont believe in the Trinity, or Grace alone or anything else I believe. But I guess it’s ok to lie to make converts.
Clyde,
Thank you for taking the time to read the links that I provided and asking a legitimate question regarding the topic of the fall from the Christian perspective. I personally think that you are asking legitimate questions and wanting to know the Christian perspective, at least looking at what you have posted from the previous 2 blog topics. However, I do see you asking this question which is unrelated to the topic of this blog as problematic in that you might have the intention of derailing this conversation from the topic at hand. On the other hand, this might be the only way for you get answers to this question which is on your mind so I personally give you the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.
I do completely agree with the answer that Rick B provided, but I wholeheartedly disagree with the tone of his answer (but I am no not without blame either). But if you are genuine Clyde then please understand why he said it the way he said it. A lot of posters randomly pop up here and there with the sole intention to derail the topic at hand, which can be very frustrating, especially when we are here to be loving apologists to the cross of Christ. I can understand his frustration because I experience it as well, but please bear with us as we are depraved sinners just like everyone else.
That being said and if you are sincere, what questions do you have in response to the Christian perspective provided by our brother Rick? I am very curious where your head and heart lie in this matter as it is obviously important for you.
Here’s the link Kate.
I think you’re right regarding Micah’s parents’ story. Very appropriate to our discussion here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew0bD_BbpiY
Rick
You seem to focus on the very negative affects of the Good and Evil question.
I hope that No body in your family has to have an abortion or even has to think about it. I hope you have the same hope for me. You see we have to figure out what is good and what is evil. We have to not make what is good evil or what is evil good.
You have to look at opposites. Without joy no sorrow, without happiness no sadness, without good no evil. If you have not thought of this then you probably do not realize that the glory of God is intelligence.
One last question. Why did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden any way?
Clyde,
Read Genesis 2:4-3:24 (the original heavens & earth) then Revelation 21:1-22:5 (the new heavens & earth). God is actively working through history now in preparation for his new creation. God planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil as His one law to test us so that we were responsible to do not only what he commanded us to do but also what he commanded us not to do. There was also a tempter in the garden which is different than the tester who is God. When we were tempted and failed our test, God punished the whole creation He had made (Gen. 3:8-19). He then hid the Tree of Life from us so that we would not live forever in our fallen state as we inflict pain and suffering on one another (every verse between Gen. 3:24 and Rev. 21:1), and also that we would not live forever in a world that likewise inflicts pain and suffering on us. God is therefore even gracious to the rebellious. Notice what will not be in the new creation in Rev. 21:4, 8. The tempter chided us with Gen. 3:5 that we would become like God. Our desire was to become like God, but the problem is that only God can responsibly live with the knowledge of good & evil because He alone is Righteous. God was not pleased that we rebelled against his law and attempted to become like Him on our own terms, or else He would not have hid the tree of life from us. God’s desire for the bearers of His image is for them to not desire this world or the things in it, but rather to desire Him alone. In the new creation we will no longer have need for even the sun or moon because “for the glory of God gives it light, and it’s lamp is the Lamb” (Rev. 21:23). We are self-centered now in our fallen state and we murder and kill one another daily in our thoughts and actions, even nature has rebelled against us due to our rebellion. God longs to wipe away our tears, to eliminate death, mourning, crying and pain and all things against Himself, and we in our natural fallen state are against Him. He is gracious even now to the wicked as He calls out His elect from the world. Come, Lord Jesus!
clyde,
What’s the point of the article that we are commenting on? Does it have to do with people being convicted of their sins and coming to the knowledge that they are in need of a Savior? That they can’t save themselves, even a little bit, based on anything they might do?
When Eric talks about people coming to “understanding”, what does “understanding” in his article mean?
Eric was referring to some MM who came tap, tap, tapping at his door. Was he talking to them about good and evil and their need to be washed in the Blood of the Lamb in order to receive the free gift of eternal life that God was offering them?
For some reason you have chosen to focus on good and evil here. Was the god you believe in once evil? Was he a wretched sinner that was in need of a Savior? Who was your god’s Savior? In fact, was your god Adam, the original god-sinner on earth?
Here’s something that you’re going to have to face clyde. There is no basis for what you believe in the Bible. In fact, as I mentioned before, the Bible is @nti Mormon. This is what you’re being asked to understand. Can you come to this understanding on your own or is the Holy Spirit going to have to bring you to an understanding of who God is, what He has done for you and how you can obtain the free gift of eternal life that He is offering you?
It’s all very personal clyde. Will you continue to reject His offer?
Good point falcon. Also, it might be good for you, Clyde, to abandon the notion of CTR entirely in order to better understand what we are saying regarding knowledge and the fall. Nobody chooses the right, no not one. Only Christ can empower fallen man with any measure of righteousness, and there are no degrees of righteousness, one is either declared righteous by God or they are not and it does not depend upon human will or effort.
P.
Before you responded above, I was sitting here with my shredded wheat thinking about what a great explanation you gave. I was wondering, “Where did he get that?” It was clear, concise and right on the money.
And do you know what? I understood it, perfectly.
Will a Mormon, like clyde, understand it? One of our former posters and former Mormon, Jack Garcia, used to talk about Mormons needing to come to the “contemplative” stage in order to begin to understand. He would also say that Mormons needed to take off their Mormon spectacles in order to read the Bible and understand it.
I was listening/watching the testimony of Jon Wilder last night. Among the interesting things he talked about was how in Mormonism he had to “put things on the shelf” that didn’t make sense in Mormonism. In-other-words ignore them.
This was particularly in light of the fact that what Mormonism teaches doesn’t correspond with what the Bible says. In her walk out of Mormonism, Lynn Wilder decided that she would read the Bible as it is. Jon also talks about how he had never, as a Mormon, read anything Paul wrote. Paul’s writings, and he was an apostle, especially Romans, Galatians and Ephesians will cause Mormons to put a whole lot of stuff on the shelf.
clyde seems to want us to talk about “behavior”. God declares us righteous based on our faith not our behavior. That’s something that any questioning Mormon can’t “put on the shelf”. That’s the understanding, the “ah ha” light bulb moment when a person is set free from their futile attempts to be righteous and accepts God’s declaration that we can’t perfect ourselves. God is interested in our behavior but only as it relates to the transformative power of His Holy Spirit and the covering of our unrighteousness with the Blood of Jesus.
Jesus didn’t die to make it possible for us to attain to eternal life if we were good enough. But in Mormonism, with its two tier system of salvation, works are everything. Becoming a god is the goal. So to someone with a Mormon mind-set, works and there role in their personal deification makes perfect sense.
I “understand” what it is Mormons are saying. I don’t believe it because it isn’t true based on God’s revelation to us. Mormons need to understand this!
Hello P,
I want to reply to you and Clyde.
I know you told Clyde you liked or agreed with my reply to him, you simply dont like how I worded it.
No offence and I guess here I go again, but I really dont care. It is not a matter of me being frustrated with Him or other Mormons that I say things that way, it is a matter of I say them because they are true.
I have said this many times, and maybe you missed it, I have been on this blog since day 1. I have read every single post and every single reply, even if I dont reply to them all. I have seen many Mormons come and go. Their comes a point when you simply have to say, this Mormon or these mormons are false prophets and simply do not want to hear the truth.
I see no place in the Bible where Jesus or His apostles ever said, treat false prophets and wolves with gentleness and respect. I see them rebuking them, warning them and others of who they are and what they are doing, and remember, wolves in sheeps clothing, where did the wolf get then sheeps clothing? The Sheep did not willing give up His hide.
Here is what the Bible says as you know
They wont spare the flock. So should I simply love the wolf, take him/her home and try and reason with them? The Bible tells us to reject these people, the reason why I keep talking with them as do a few others I know is because people read what they write. If we dont respond to them, then people might think what they said is true.
If you see evidence that some of these TBM really want honest debate and are open to talking then show me, But I simply dont see it, and here is a few examples.
Mike R said to Shem
I also pointed out to Shem, me and others can give quotes from former prophets and presidents saying things like what BY taught, Adam is God, this is Doctrine , and I sent out sermons I would call doctrine. Grindal is a former Mormon and has posted crushing amounts of quotes from former prophets and teachers, and yet Shem always replies with, were simply ignorant and since were not mormons we simply dont understand what the quotes mean.
Or he claims if he does not understand it is simply a matter of, he does not have enough information.
How can we have an honest and real debate if all we ever hear is, we dont understand what were saying or reading? Why bother posting quotes. I believe he knows what we are saying is true and since he has no real responce, then he claims we simply dont understand.
Then me and shem went back and forth over Saul (Paul) being a murder. Shem insisted I had no clue what I was talking about, But finally after showing from the Bible that Paul Knew Jesus, had part in His death and Paul admitting he was a murder, Shem could only say, well we disagree and I dont care. So When we can prove something from the Bible, they dont care.
Take the issue of the Trinity, One Mormon, Parkman, before that topic came up would always ask about how we can prove the trinity correct, So Andy did a very indepth 4 part topic on the trinty, then Parkman would try and change the subject and derail that topic, and Shem replied a few times on part one, then never replied on the other 3 parts. When I pointed this out to Him, he said it was not a topic he really cared about. And Clyde maybe replied one or twice with nothing of real substance.
How can a Mormon who teaches that the trinity is false and swear were wrong, then not say, I dont care about that topic. Clyde brought up the issue of the pre-existence. Funny how one reason Mormons deny the trinity is, they claim the word trinity is not found in the Bible, Yet the word pre-existence and the issue of us sitting in heaven watching the battle as many sit on the side lines refusing to choose a side is not mentioned in the Bible either, yet they still insist it is true. Funny how that works.
Then as far as Clyde Goes, Notice how much of what I said he avoided? This proves he does not care. Clyde, You never gave me and answer, If the Bible says, God cannot lie, then when He said, I commanded you not to eat of the tree and they did, and in reality God wanted them to, then that makes Him a liar.
Also as a result of us eating from the tree, many people will go to eternal damnation and burn in the lake of fire for all of eternity. Yet that was not Gods desire to see that happen, the Bible even tells us, that Hell was NOT CREATED for Humans, but only the devil and the angels that followed him. You never explained how that is Good and part of what was to happen.
So it is examples like this and things that I see with these guys that tells me they dont care and are false teachers. Then as I am sure you know, They call us enemies of the church, yet when I point out, their prophets said, If JS is a fraud he needs to be exposed as a fraud. Funny how I do what their prophets say, yet again, I am the ignorant one who does not understand, or I am just a big mean man for speaking the truth.
As a Mormon I didn’t read the Bible. I had it pounded in my head that it wasn’t translated correctly and I thought it was just too hard to understand on my own anyway. We did study the New Testament in Sunday school every fourth year. I say study “lightly” and always in LDS context. I wonder how many Mormons are like this? There’s one part in Lynn Wilder’s story that I can really relate to and that was when she said that she didn’t trust anything and wanted to see only the words of Jesus himself. I did this too. One day I went out and bought a Bible not affiliated with the LDS church (no chapter headings or LDS notes) asked God to reveal Himself to me and by the Holy Spirit He did. Not only was the Bible easy for me to read on my own, but it contradicted Mormonism. Did I understand everything I read? Absolutely not, but I understood who Jesus is and that I am saved by Grace alone. I then started attending a Christian Church and my Pastor gave me a CD by Chuck Missler called Learn the Bible in 24 hours. That was interesting and helpful. I went to Bible study classes for new believers and it just rolled from there. Everything I learned was absolutely new to me. Because of my experiences in Mormonism I still refuse to call myself anything but a follower of Jesus. I don’t associate myself with any denomination, group or name. Mormonism leaves scars.
“When presenting the gospel, some of us are involved in planting seeds and others are in charge of watering, “but God made it grow” (1 Cor. 3:6). ”
I live in Mormonville and was once a Mormon, I know that the only thing I can do is plant seeds. Mormonism is so thick here but I am hoping my seeds take root!
Joseph Warren is a member of Adam’s Road along with Micah Wilder.
Skip up to about minute 35 for a discussion of what the topic of the article (we are discussing).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjPN6G8Ngq4
Clyde said
Clyde, it is statements like this that make me say, You do not read your Bible, and if you claim you do, you ignore what it says. Go back and read Genesis, it says
Now for full context, go back and read the entire chapter before this verse. Every thing he created is called Good, yet their is no mention in those verse of creating Sorrow, sadness, nothing evil. So if Good said it was Good, than according to you, how is everything good if their is no evil?
Then you said
Again, do you read the Bible? You mean to tell me when God looked at the earth and saw that the entire world was so vile and wicked that He decided to destroy it with a flood, minus Noah and his family, that this was part of Gods plan when He really wanted us to fall, you mean He really wanted to destroy roughly 6 billion people?
What about all the people who were killed and tortured, they cried out to God to be delivered, You mean God wanted them to be killed so they could call out for deliverance?
Have you read Romans?
You claim I focus on the bad and evil things, Well the Bible points it out and NEVER calls it good, or never claims this was supposed to happen. So Back it up from the Bible. If you cannot back it up or you keep changing the subject, then I will say to all lurkers who are looking into Mormonism that this is typical of Mormons, they cannot prove what they believe from the Bible and they keep trying to avoid the subject and avoid it at all costs.
Here’s the link for the documentary “Unveiled Grace”. The video is created from the interviews, and others, cited above.
I think it’s really well done and relates directly to our discussion topic here.
Somehow these folks “understood” the gospel message of Jesus Christ.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=Dl0c5nl6u48&NR=1
Brother Mike,
I hope you don’t feel as though I was trying to paint you a certain way. I can honestly say that I have not been here since day one, nor have I read every post. This of course as you would agree does not give you any edge over me (as I’m sure you are not trying to do in the first place), but it does give you a better understanding of Clyde’s pattern of behavior which is something that I would have no knowledge of.
I would have to respectfully disagree with you though on how you apply Acts 20:29 to your approach to dealing with Mormons. Our difference would be that you would say that they are actively dividing the flock, while I would say that the flock had already been divided before Joseph Smith died. If we are both standing on a fence then would both land on opposite sides at least with regard to this understanding. I am perfectly fine with casting anathemas against heretics who actively seek to turn whole congregations into heretical congregations as the councils and canons of the early church did over and over again, but Mormons are not mixed within the body of Christ. They have become a religion that is wholly different from orthodox Christianity in a very serious way.
Once again, I have absolutely no clue how close in any way you are to Mr. McKeever, but in his early podcasts he addresses the subject on how to be respectful to Mormons, especially with regards to verses such as 2 John 1:10. Now, Brother McKeever may reply to me and say that I have misunderstood what he saying and that would still be fine for me.
We are all familiar with Terry Jones and the damage he causes to the body of Christ. I am a person familiar to the Dearborn area and how he and people like him routinely travel to this city to protest against Islam. He stands outside of schools and synagogues with bullhorns proclaiming the gospel of damnation to these depraved people. They walk around holding signs saying, “Ask me why you are going to Hell!” and “Your prophet was a pedophile!” When people proclaim the good news of salvation found in Christ in this manner there is then no room for Titus 3:1-2.
I am absolutely in support of being very stern and direct to heretics who actively try to confuse and pervert the good news of Christ in accordance with the truth, but not in a hateful spirit. Islam may have been this element during the very early Meccan era but Islam has moved far beyond this and is now very far removed from anything resembling Christianity. In the same way, I believe that Mormonism has moved far beyond anything fundamentally resembling Christianity. The point could still be made that Mormonism still tries to proselytize to Christians. Well, so do Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, secularists, so that by that criteria what would not qualify as a false prophet which is deserving of sternness that lacks Titus 3:1-2.
Clearly we both disagree on where Mormonism stands on the fence described above, and that is fine. I am in no way equating anyone here with Terry Jones, I would only urge a spirit of perfect courtesy towards all men even if they are a false prophets.
I guess I’ve asked this question before. What are these Mormons who are searching, having questions about Mormonism to do if they feel (good choice of words) that they’ve had a confirmation from the “spirit” previously that Mormonism is true? Now they’re faced with the dilemma of questioning their “spiritual feeling”.
For example, in the videos I’ve been posting above, I’d say all of these former Mormons got some sort of “confirmation” that the Mormon church, BoM was true. Then they found themselves investigating and finding out that the truth doesn’t match what they thought was a confirmation, generally a feeling.
According to our former Mormons in the video(s) what turned them away from Mormonism was that Mormonism didn’t match what they were reading in the Bible. What they had been taught in Mormonism is that in such a case it means that the Bible was translated wrong. I mean that’s almost funny, but it’s tragic at the same time.
I’ve had a lot of experience with bosom burnings, revelations, words from the Lord etc. and while such things seem super spiritual, I’ve learned to be pretty skeptical about it. Now how can I, a born again believer in Jesus Christ, have such an attitude? Well it’s because I’ve seen these things abused.
Jesus pointed two of his disciples, after His resurrection, to the Law, Psalms and Prophets to confirm who He was. That was it! Now later they made a comment about “weren’t our hearts burning within us?” because they didn’t recognize Jesus. I would say that’s an “expression” like “she took my breath away”. It’s meant to express something not describe a reality.
I think a lot of “feeling the spirit” comes out of the souls of men rather from the Spirit of God. During revivals people have been known to jerk, roll on the floor, laugh uncontrollably and even bark like dogs. John Wesley and Spurgeon talked about experiences with the Spirit that made them feel something. Charles Finney had an experience of “liquid love” pouring over him.
The point I’m trying to make is, it’s a good idea to get confirmation in more ways than a feeling. God’s Word is the best guide to the truth.
Rick you seem to be dragging a simple query all out of preportions. So I will ask a simple question.
How do you Know what is Good?
Clyde, as usual your playing games and dodging questions, or cannot answer them. I suspect your a troll.
As to your question, God is good. How do I know? since you will ask, The Bible and Jesus say so.
No rick I am trying to explain a simple concept by asking a simple question.
How do you know happiness?
clyde,
What’s the deal? Do you need a hug? Are you bored? Have you finished rearranging your sock drawer and straightening out your string collection?
I think you have either way too much time on your hands or you took a bonk on the head and have reverted back to when you were fifteen years old.
Please, friends, drop the personal jabs and refocus your discussion on the topic(s). Thanks.
Hello P.
You accidently called me Mike, It is Rick.
All I am going to say about this is just look at my questions to Clyde, then look at how he avoids them. He keeps dodging them and trying to ask more questions. Then tell me, Does he really want to talk, or his he just a troll? Then does his asking the question in the first place change the topic at hand or does it fit the topic?
I understand when topic come up they do get a little of hand due to asking questions and quoting prophets, yet Clyde was the first person to post and his question had nothing to do with the Topic at hand. He is like that and does it a lot, just rambles, questions dont make sense or try’s and changes the subject. Rick
Clyde said
I know happiness, I happen to make and sell happiness. My online company name is called, Seller of happiness. I have 3 hot spices that I created and sell, Happiness, sorrow and eternal suffering. 2 of the 3 were put into contests and took first and second place. Been making and selling happiness since 2007.
So when People say, can money buy happiness, I can honestly say, yes it does.
Hey P,
Write me at [email protected]
I want to talk with you. Rick
Clyde said
Clyde, I know what your trying to do and I wont bite. You need to prove to me from the Bible that before we fell, that when God said, I COMMANDED YOU not to eat from the tree, how that since we disobeyed Him, that what God really said, meant or implied was that He really wanted us to eat and it was for our benefit?
You cannot prove this from Scripture. Then You need to prove from Scripture that all the death and evil and people who go to eternal damnation and burn in the lake of fire forever with out end, was all part of Gods plan when we fell. This also cannot be supported from scripture, and I showed you the Bible says, God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked, and that Hell was not created for Humans, only the devil and His angels.
But yet in your twisted thinking, this was all needed for us to have happiness. I see Adam and Eve being happy with out pain and suffering. Another problem we have is, God Killed an animal, Cursed the ground, cursed Adam with pain from work and Even with child bearing and even cursed the serpent.
Why would God curse them and punish them for doing something He wanted them to or needed them to do in the first place? That makes no sense. But we know you cannot and will not be able to answer these questions using the Bible only, so you must go to some man for answers. The problem is These men according to Shem can if they want, go to seek God in prayer and ask what Vacuum is needed to clean the temple, but these same men are unable to go to God for answers concerning the bigger issues of the Bible. Or Things like, Is Adam really God? Or what Verses in the Bible have been corrupted? And can we get the proper translation of these verses, or Did God really sin as a man and then be exalted.
Sadly your prophets cannot answer these questions, but can tell me what vacuum I need. Thats because they dont hear from God and make things up as they go.
clyde,
You’ve asked a bunch of “what” questions, as in “what is good”, “what is evil”, “what is happiness” when in reality you need to be asking a least one “who” question. That question is, “Who is Jesus?”
With your “what” questions you’re avoiding the one question that will bring you eternal life. The topic here has to do with “understanding”. So do you understand what the Bible says about who Jesus is? You could start with the Gospel of John about the first fifteen verses. That’s the foundation of the Christian witness.
When MM go out they’re trying to sell their prospects on Joseph Smith, the BoM, their current prophet. Mormons see their church as the pathway to eternal life. In the two tiered system of Mormon salvation, it’s the works of the individual Mormon that will bring him to the possibility of becoming a god. That message is no where in the NT and was an invention of Joseph Smith.
So really, who are you going to trust? Will you trust in Jesus for eternal life or Joseph Smith?
Hi,
First time commenter. I found your link at Main Street Plaza. Full disclosure, I’m Mormon (shocking huh!) and I’m not interested in debating my beliefs on this thread. But I am interested in why the writer of the OP thinks that he didn’t have any effect on the junior elder? How does the writer know that in 5, 10, or 15 years from now the encounter that the junior elder had with him, won’t lead the junior elder’s conversion to the writer religion?
Does the OP writer think that conversion is instantaneous? Is this an Evangelical belief? (many Mormons believe in instant conversion too.) It’s been my experience that conversion is incremental and longitudinal, i.e. little by little and over a period of time.
I hope this is not viewed as a thread jack. I am genuinely curious about this.