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I’ve heard of ‘New Mormons’ I’ve seen some of the things they say but I still don’t know what a New Mormon is. If they reject the teachings of former prophets & apostles can they still properly be called Mormons? Suppose they go so far as to reject Joseph Smith as a prophet of the restoration & the BofM as a genuine historical document, will they then become just another Christian denomination?
I’m asking these things because I honestly don’t know what to make of them.
Someone can correct me if I’m wrong but I believe a New Mormon doesn’t really believe some of the truth claims of the LDS Church. It can vary in the amount believed from almost everything but a few subjects to almost nothing. Some are just Mormons because of the heritage and for family reasons. The idea is that you can still be Mormon but not hold the same orthodox Mormon beliefs.
I was considering being Mormon for the rest of my life when first discovering the truth of the LDS Church. At the time I didn’t know what my new beliefs would do to my family. I had to decide if there was truth to be known about God. I really had to know that if I left Mormonism, with the risk to my friends, family, and marriage, that I was leaving it for something real. If there was no truth to be known than I would stay Mormon for the sake of peace. I believe a lot of the New Mormons are Mormons by name. They have discovered the problems of the LDS Church but maybe haven’t discovered the truth that is in Jesus Christ and that can be found in the Bible . The heartbreak of leaving Mormonism is very real, and the person leaving needs to know that the pain will be worth it. For me, leaving was worth every tear. I love my new faith and this ever growing relationship I have with my Savior.
Jaxi
I completely understand what you’re saying & although I have no personal experience of the problems associated with leaving the Corporation, (I’ve never been a member), I’ve read enough tragic stories to have enormous sympathy for those caught in its trap. Its often a case of live a lie or live alone with no friends or family.
Having said that I do know from personal experience what a corrupt & non Christian organization the LDS is which may help to explain, at least in part, why I am so vocal in my condemnation of it. Certain Mormons in here like to say I suffer from ‘Emotive antipathy’, they fail to see that the LDS organization itself is the root cause of my contempt.
Sorry, I’ve drifted off topic so I guess that’s another story for another day
I’m not going to lie, I had to Google Neo-Orthodox Mormons hahaha! How are these Neo-Orthodox Mormons considered true Mormons? I’m going to have to research this and see if Pres. Monson has addressed these New Mormons and just what the LDS church’s take is on this. I sort of feel like today’s Mormonism should be called “Hippy Mormonism” don’t worry about a thing just feeeel the loooove! In all seriousness though, how can any Mormon reject the teachings of LDS prophets and apostles and not leave? Where is their personal integrity and honesty? After I figured it all out I couldn’t wait to resign and be free. I felt like I had something diseased on me and I needed to get it off!
I do understand that some Mormons face shunning from friends and family for rejecting Mormonism and it’s easier for some to leave than others. Thankfully I don’t care what people think about me and I used my free agency to send in a letter.
Something like this is’nt to surprising . For the last few decades there has slowly been forming
a movement in the Mormon church that is the result of it’s members becoming aware that their
leaders may just not be what they were originally persuaded to believe about them i.e. these
leaders are not receiving on- going supervision from Jesus . The widespread public
exposure of what these men have taught as spiritual truth since the time they claim to have
been appointed by Jesus to be His select group of teachers has played an important role in
birthing a new and growing group(s) within the Church . For many Mormons the fact that the
church has morphed (I think the word apostatized would fit ) into unaccepted behavior and
has become a massive financial / religious corporation , has’nt sat well with them . Despite
all this it can still be extremely difficult to up and leave as , family , employment , social
activities are all part of the mix .
God help these decent people to make the clean break from the man made organization they
have joined .
Well here it is from their own website:
“New Order Mormons are those who no longer believe some (or much) of the dogma or doctrines of the LDS Church, but who want to maintain membership for cultural, social, or even spiritual reasons. New Order Mormons recognize both good and bad in the Church, and have determined that the Church does not have to be perfect in order to remain useful. New Order Mormons seek the middle way to be Mormon.”
http://www.newordermormon.org/
“In the Latter-day Saint worldview there is only one church that offers the knowledge needed for salvation and exaltation, along with the only valid priesthood authority. People who have been taught these ideas all their lives often think that there is no sacrifice too great if it leads to the real truth about God and redemption. And as missionaries, many here have urged investigators to turn away from their habits, their traditions, even their friends and families, to embrace the truths of the Restoration. When you find Truth, the theory goes, you leave wherever you’re at to follow it. So when they themselves decide that the LDS church does not, after all, have a corner on Truth or Authority, or Spirituality, one of their first impulses is to get out quick.”
http://www.newordermormon.org/why-we-stay.php
Quite frankly, I couldn’t hang around a religion I didn’t believe in. I’m not real good at being quiet or hiding my feelings as I’m sure is obvious to those who read my posts.
From reading our Mormon posters over the years, they all seem to believe they have the truth about Mormonism. I get the impression that there’s a whole lot of leeway for someone to stay in the religion and even hold on to a temple recommend and not endorse or believe in much. I would be willing to bet that there are numbers of people who justify lying during their interview with the bishop. It’s a game.
What did that one BYU professor say? “In Mormonism you can believe whatever you want to. You just can’t teach it.”
Can a person do this and still have personal integrity? I don’t think so!
LDS authorities like to state why people leave the LDS Church. This is my list on why people stay (this is stereotypical but the LDS Church authorities don’t mind making stereotypes so why should I?):
1.) Mormons that Don’t Know: Most Mormons don’t know their own history, either out of laziness, ignorance, or fear. (I was one of them for a long time, mainly out of ignorance because of trusting and obeying LDS authority.)
2.) Mormons That Do Know but Can’t Accept: Many of the ones that do know their history are in denial. (“I don’t believe that happened.” “The resources are wrong.” “They are lying.” “It was just their opinion.” “The leaders aren’t perfect.” etc. etc.) Denial is a way to avoid pain and hurt. I can say from experience that it hurts when everything you believe and built your life around is a lie.
3.) Non Believing Mormons: The ones that no longer believe the LDS Church is the “one and only truth.” Many of these become atheist or agnostic but keep their activity and membership. The atheists that stay do so because they still enjoy their LDS friendships and heritage. They have too much to lose, family or employment wise (especially if living in Utah). It’s not a big deal if they leave because they don’t believe in God anyways. The agnostics stay for many of the same reasons but they believe that if there is a God there is no way for us humans to know. So it’s all about love and caring for people and they find that in the LDS community, so they believe they might as well stay. It’s way easier to keep the peace than leave. You don’t want to leave and cause such distress if you believe there is no God or no truth. A happy lie is better than the painful unknown.
4.) Christian Mormons: This is a small group of people that become Christian and stay to try to make the LDS faith more Christian from the inside. This usually doesn’t end well.
5.) History Knowing and Strong Believing Mormons: This group believes everything LDS and even the past history. The FLDS love to covert from this group. I have met people in the LDS Church from this group that have told me in Home Teaching Meetings that Christ was a polygamist and Eve was one of many wives. They don’t deny the teaching of past leaders. They LOVE the Journal of Discourses. They say that the teachings are getting watered down because of lack of faith. To them, it is less about belief and more about who’s got the authority.
jaxi,
I would like to add to your list of why people stay. The Church nutures compliant children and exiles the others. Those compliant children usually catch on when they become grandparents, but they can do nothing about it. The culture web is too complicated, so they stay. Many older Mormons have little hope and little joy.
The motivation for leaving was my attempt to shield my children from the mental anguish.
Welcome LWG.
Please stick around. Former Mormons help establish the credibility of what is said here. We often get the attitude that we don’t know anything about Mormonism because we aren’t Mormons. The interesting thing is that many of the Mormon posters don’t know a whole lot about Mormonism.
Rick and I have been continuously accused, over the years, by Mormons of not getting Mormonism right. When we ask what we’re getting wrong, we hear cricket noises.
You know I’m guessing that leaving Mormonism, if living in the Mormon bubble, is much harder than say living in the Midwest or the south. It’s also much easier if the family of origin is not Mormon. Although a guy I met who left Mormonism did say that all of his Mormon friends disappeared when he left the church. He was the guy who had been raised Lutheran and when he joined the LDS church he knew zippo about it. He was really steamed when the beliefs came to light long after he had joined up.
Like i have shared how could I know at age 17 back in 1975 what we share here now ? I went through there method of training my brain and heart to believe, to know what was important , we dont know what we dont know.
Going on a mission at age 19 with only 2 yrs in the church looking back was a joke, but coming from a weak family main me a prime target for a religion that stresses family .
So i became a victim without knowing it .
I wish i could spend 1 min with my dad and say i am sorry
I wish I could spend 1 min with my mom and hug her and say i am sorry,
I was better than my own parents, i judged them , not love them,
I cant go back , but i do look back , i do all that i can to be better , not bitter,
I do have two beautiful little girls 8 and 10 who have not been back in THAT church in almost 2 yrs,
there mom who was raised in the church blasted me over and over of not doing this or that, now is inactive over 2 yrs, funny how that is now.
Thanks everyone for your kind words and thoughts, I am free, each day is a gift removed from the Mormon mental steel trap , and thank God I wasnt raised in the church.
My two older sons, have been trashed because of what the church did to them,they have no believe in God or Christ, time can only heal them.
So we can only pray that each day some Mormon , even if its just 1 can escape , that is a miracle .
Good night all,
Ironman
LWG, welcome .
Ironman1995, my wife and I will be praying for your two sons to find true peace and healing .
Jesus is able .
Ironman,
Coming to a saving knowledge of the grace of Jesus Christ is a gift from God. He reaches out to us poor, pitiful sinners in love, mercy and compassion.
Jesus sets us free from religion.
Yes you were caught in the steel trap of a false religious cult that seeks to enslave people with a rigid system that people mistake for God’s path.
The fresh breeze of the Spirit of God can make dead men’s bones come alive.
The unfortunate thing about Mormons is that they think they have God when they have a false god.
Jesus is the Truth, the Way and the Life. No one gets to the Father except by Him.
I’m glad you found your way out and can breathe the fresh air of freedom in Christ Jesus Our Lord.
falcon,
I clicked on the links you provided and took some time reading the forums of these Neo Orthodox Mormons. My heart just broke for these people. Lost sheep. They are just wandering around with nothing. I read through several comments about the temple and how they never felt anything wonderful or spiritual there and in fact many of them thought it was creepy and will never go back. Some talked about how disappointed they were when they learned a lot of it was rituals of the Free Masons. Just reading through some of the topics and questions asked brought back memories of my own experience of finding out the LDS church isn’t what it claimed to be. Hopefully one day these people will find their way to Jesus.
Ironman,
You were taught in the same era as I was. The only information we had was what the LDS church gave to us. Around the 90’s the LDS leaders really started cautioning us not to look at anything that isn’t church approved. Creating fear that what was out there was evil. When I started my research at 38, I refused to look at anything not church approved for about a year. The thing is, most of what I did research through was published by the LDS church. I have been commenting on this site for a few years now and it’s interesting that Mormons are offended and feel they’re persecuted, by their church’s own publications. Most Christians who post here just post quotes, teachings and doctrines from these LDS church publications. Mormons have to twist, spin and do an amazing amount of mental gymnastics to try and convince themselves that what is right there in black and white, put out by their own church, is not what it looks like.
I stumbled across this video series called the Ex-Files. There are several but I think this will be of interest to our former Mormon posters in particular. There’s a few things here that I was unfamiliar with regarding personal feelings and attitude. The person interviewed is Shawn McCraney’s wife Mary, for those of you who are familiar with Shawn and his ministry.
What I found most interesting were her thoughts regarding Jesus when she was LDS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFuXcQF-XfQ
Most Mormons, would never even give this site the time of day of out fear and having there brains wired to being obedient to there leaders, to stay clear.
Looking back at the Salt Lake Mission home , which was before the training center in Provo, Elder Packer warned us of Anti Mormons readings, he even mentioned a couple named the Tanners , this is back in Jan 1977.
So in the mission field sure enough someone tried to hand us a pamphlet which was written by the Tanners , you have just thought we had been given porn the way we backed off from it lol.
Thats why I can look back and to think I trusted these men , thats the key word MEN .
BLIND TRUST
falcon, et. al.
So, you found the ex-files with Earl Erskine, eh?
My wife and I are interviews # 12 and 13 at their site:
http://exmormonfiles.tv/episodes/
Tom,
I watched your interview this morning. I really don’t want to take us in a direction we don’t want to go here but I was thinking clearly about the doctrine of election. Paul explains it clearly in the first chapter of Ephesians. Even though it’s clearly explained it can be somewhat controversial and perhaps not easily understood.
What is clear is that God chose you in Him before the foundation of the world. I know the mis-application of that verse with Mormons and their false belief in the pre-existence. In your case, it is very clear that God’s Holy Spirit was pursuing you and was indeed troubling the water of your spirit.
I also find it interesting how the Bible and Christianity began to make sense to you. It became clear and it wasn’t what you had been taught. I get a kick out of Mormons who say that if you want to understand Mormonism, ask a Mormon. Then is becomes clear that they don’t understand Mormonism all that well themselves.
They certainly don’t understand Christianity but have these weird notions implanted by the false religious system of Mormonism that has to create this false impression in order to justify (Mormonism).
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not real complicated. We are sinners separated from God. God has reconciled us to Himself through His Son Jesus Christ. We accept, through faith, God’s solution to our problem. Jesus, God incarnate, paid the price for our sins. He died on our behalf. We are set free form the Law of sin and death and are granted new life through Jesus Christ. We are born again by the Spirit of God.
That’s why it’s called Good News!
This post is ridiculous. I love it when s-mormons and never-have-been-mormons claim what mormons or is not and what mormons believe.
Jaxi, i liked your post. I disagree about your ideas on New Mormons. People see things differently. Some of us dont look at everything as dogmatic. I can believe in prophets and i can believe they make mistakes. I can believe they can get things wrong. I can even believe that 99% of what they do is based more on inspiration (which they can get wrong) than on command from God. And this is because I don’t see the calling of the prophet the same as you do. Like with Moses, 99% of the time, Moses was a guy, and then every once in a while, the Lord commanded him to do or say something. Moses acted the rest of the time as he thought he should, and he got some things right and some wrong. He got something wrong enough that it was offensive enough to God that he was punished pretty severely and refused entry into the land he spent a lifetime trying to find. Jonah argued with God because he wanted revenge on people. These men, they are men.
I understand where you are coming from. I really do, and I understand why your view on the prophets combined with the things you learned in church history caused pain to you. I understand why you left, and I am sure that it was pretty difficult for you and your family.
I hope you can also respectfully understand why someone else views church history differently as a member. If you take a different view on prophets as I stated, and you combine that with these men trying to start the church, having brought with them all their cultural and religious backgrounds, bringing all their makeup with them, and considering they were most of the time just men, they made some mistakes, and it should be expected. In my mind, it would run counter to my intuition and beliefs. In brazil, where i served a mission, we started branches, or attended fairly new branches, areas where the church was pretty young. All sorts of stuff was taught. These men and women, they were doing their best, and they brought with them traditions and passions and you know, they were great people. It takes time for humans to change, and sometimes, it takes time for even the ones God chooses to get things right. We have prophets in the old testament who run from their calling, or try to ignore it, or argue with God they aren’t the right person for the job.
Anyway, thanks for your post.
This may be a little off topic. My house still receives the Ensign, we got a long subscription that hasn’t run out. I like to look through it still and look for all the things I never caught as a member. A section in this month’s Ensign that really stood out to me was “The Restoration and Early Christian Teachings.” I find it ironic how the LDS Church tries to separate itself from many of the teaching from its past leaders but tries to link itself with the Early Christian Fathers. If you take the article at face value, it seems to be a very reassuring article to LDS. “Oh good. See. Early Christianity did teach our current LDS beliefs.” I wonder how many LDS are actually going to read the “Stromata” by Clement of Alexandria, or Irenaeus’ “Against the Heresies.” The Ensign uses Clement of Alexandria to support baptisms for the dead. Clement was speaking on when Christ descended to preach the gospel to the people that died before Christ’s atonement, not baptism by proxy. Hippolytus is used to show that it was taught that we will become co-heirs with Christ. Christians do believe we will be co-heirs with Christ, we just don’t believe we will become Gods (with a big G). Eastern Orthodoxy teaches that we become gods (with a little g) in that we are still creations but that we have God’s image within us and will become Chrsit-like, or God-like, not a God. Irenaeus is also used to show that original Christianity was restored by LDS. Irenaeus is actually one of my favorite of the early Church Father’s to read. He was the follower of Polycarp, who followed John. It is strange to me that the Ensign would use Irenaeus as support for their beliefs. They like to pick a belief here and there that is similar but what about all the differences taught be these men?
Irenaeus wrote,
“For how can there be any other Fulness, or Principle, or Power, or God, above Him, since it is matter of necessity that God, the Pleroma (Fulness) of all these, should contain all things in His immensity, and should be contained by no one? But if there is anything beyond Him, He is not then the Pleroma of all, nor does He contain all. For that which they declare to be beyond Him will be wanting to the Pleroma, or, [in other words,] to that God who is above all things. But that which is wanting, and falls in any way short, is not the Pleroma of all things. In such a case, He would have both beginning, middle, and end, with respect to those who are beyond Him. And if He has an end in regard to those things which are below, He has also a beginning with respect to those things which are above. In like manner, there is an absolute necessity that He should experience the very same thing at all other points, and should be held in, bounded, and enclosed by those existences that are outside of Him. For that being who is the end downwards, necessarily circumscribes and surrounds him who finds his end in it. And thus, according to them, the Father of all (that is, He whom they call Proön and Proarche), with their Pleroma, and the good God of Marcion, is established and enclosed in some other, and is surrounded from without by another mighty Being, who must of necessity be greater, inasmuch as that which contains is greater than that which is contained. But then that which is greater is also stronger, and in a greater degree Lord; and that which is greater, and stronger, and in a greater degree Lord— must be God.”
That doesn’t support LDS view of God to me. I think if you read Irenaeus you will not find much Mormonism.
The article also uses the Book of Enoch to support LDS teachings. I was under the impression that the Book of Enoch taught the pre-existence of Christ, not of all mankind. I noticed that the article said, “taught that all men ‘have been before they came down to the world.'” I noticed that the words “all men” were not in direct quotes. But even if LDS can find a teaching of the preexistence in some obscure place, how does that support everything being done in Mormonism. Is it so strange to think that someone else other than Joseph Smith thought about the possibility of preexistence? But does one similarity support the whole thing? I don’t think so.
The article also states, “Some non-LDS scholars now recognize that baptism for the dead was an authentic ancient Christian practice.” They give no reference to these scholars except one. It says, “One historian reports that in the early Christian Church “the necessity of baptism is such that the Apostles and teachers…”(not sure what’s after the …)”who preaches the Gospel had to go down to limbo, there to teach and baptize the just already dead.” So LDS believe in limbo now? And how does that tie into Baptism for the dead by proxy? This historian is teaching something very different from LDS practice. The book being referenced was also written in 1910.
What a comforting article. Talk about reaching. The need to distance themselves from the past teachings of LDS leaders but unite themselves to early Christian leaders is ironic to me.
Again, we have distortion and wishful thinking. You are comparing apples and oranges. The prophet who ran away, Jonah, didn’t teach false doctrine. He just didn’t want to be a prophet. God didn’t give him an option. It doesn’t mean that he flubbed God’s message, or taught something that was in direct contradiction to God’s word. That is what Mormon “prophets” have done and continue to do. Name me one Mormon “prophet” who ran away from the job. What Mormons teach is that their right to the oracles of God make them infallible as prophets, not as people. They claim the gift of discernment so they know everything about everybody because they have the “constant companion” of the Holy “Ghost”. So when Jo taught in 1836 and made scripture that God was a Spirit, Jesus simply God in the flesh and the Holy Spirit the mind of God, it was simply God’s fault because Jo needed more time to comprehend the nature of God, even though he said that he saw him in 1820? The Holy “Ghost” could not tell Jo that the drawing of Min the fertility god was NOT “God sitting on his throne”? That is NOT what your “prophets” teach. You can delude yourself that it is, but you are simply ignoring the plethora of doctrinal statements that prove you wrong. Jo said that “I never told you I was perfect but there are no errors in the revelations I have taught,” and that anything said by the power of the “Holy Ghost” is SCRIPTURE. Because some in the church don’t want to believe it, doesn’t make it any less so. That is where you have gone off the deep end. You can’t ascribe to the “oracles of God” opinions when they are speaking to the church. It’s ludicrous, and not what your own scriptures teach. Give me one example from the Bible where a “reluctant prophet” or a prophet that had physical problems taught false doctrine and was not called out for it by God. You can’t because it’s not there. This whole act that modern Mormons put on about their “prophets” not understanding the Holy “Ghost” because their “traditions” overrode it, is a fantasy, and never have Mormon “prophets” said this was the case. This is a modern Mormon invention to cover up the blatant doctrinal blunders of past “prophets”. Of course this can all be backed up by statements, as we do here time after time, but it is useless to do so with those of you who live in a bubble and won’t allow the truth to come inside of it.
Nothing here shows that Jonah taught false doctrine, only that he was angry at God for wanting to save those he did not understand God WOULD save. This is what being human is, but there was no error in what Jonah got from God, nor did he teach his “traditions” or belief as the word of God as you claim Mormon “prophets” have done. He ran away, but then accepted the might of God to use him to give his message. God’s right and just and true message, not a distorted message interwoven with Jonah’s own reasoning. This is because Jonah actually WAS a prophet. Using this account to defend your argument is a straw man from the Mormon bubble.
This can be done with every single instance of trying to use Old Testament prophets to interpret Mormon false prophets.
Again, we have distortion and wishful thinking – grindael
the only distortion and wishful, thinking that is going on is from you. Most of the posters on this site act as if the church is teaching some horrid doctrine and stealing babies in the night, practicing witchcraft and drinking monkey’s blood. Look, the LDS faith has brought me closer to Christ. The book of mormon has brought me closer to Christ. The teachings I find in the LDS faith teach a simple doctrine, follow God’s commandments, love others, repent, follow Christ’s teachings, accept the attonement and press forward with faith. That is it in a nutshell. That is what you will find in the LDS faith.
Most of the x-mormons here tell the same stories that i have heard many times. They are sad. Most of the people here appear to have grown up in the church, followed it most of their lives, and then one day found out Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, that BY had racist statements, the Adam-God theory, or some other controversial topic. They go through a painful exit. They run into the arms of another church usually with equal or worse history, but for some reason, the thousand or so years of corruption, murder, rape, and oppression all done in the name of christianity is somehow easier to swallow than the fact that Joseph Smith married lots of women, or that BY accepted a protestant idea about blacks and Cain. There is no clean history in christianity.
You and the mormon bubble phrase. You really love that phrase. You have an excuse for every human frailty of past prophets from the old testament, but wont accept the same from modern ones. Grindael, if you lived back in the OT times, you would be stoning Jonah as you want to do with God’s modern prophets. You just find it easier and more convenient to overlook the frailties of men that lived a few thousand years ago. I mean, you dont have every neighbor’s thoughts on Jonah, or Moses. You just have their own writings. You dont have any testimony from people that rejected them, or thought they were looney. If you lived then, you would join the hate, as you do here.
No one is forcing you to believe in mormonism. You spend your time attacking it, because simply, you have nothing better to do. Your own faith is not meaningful enough to support you apparently. You are never going to apply the same microscope to your own faith that you apply to mormonism. Why should you?
Your arguments are tired and old. Unlike those that follow the pope, we claim that the prophet is capable of error, small and great. Free agency is available to all. That is why Joseph Smith and BY commonly asked followers to find the truth for themselves. Find out if its true. The church asks its followers to do exactly opposite of what you claim. Every member should find the truth out for themselves. If you dont find that truth, or you think the errors of church leaders are to great, then you have the agency to leave it. Run into the arms of another faith that doesnt even claim to be led by God today and whose history is far worse. I dont base my faith in God on other men. I base it on my own study, prayer, and revelation from God.
And yes, Joseph Smith was still understanding and learning until the day he died, as do we all.
another reason i find your point so weak about Jonah not teaching false doctrine, is that you dont know what Jonah taught. The OT is not a doctrinal discussion. It is a narrative of events.
So Joseph of the OT divined with a silver cup (a pagan practice). That is a narrative. Now, what did Joseph feel about the silver cup and how did that fit in to his faith and how was that doctrinal? We dont know, because the bible does not capture any teachings from Joseph. Certainly he had some feelings on this. Or was he just swindling people?
The Bible captures no teachings from Abraham. So when Abraham is commanded to marry Hagar and practice polygamy, does the bible tell us what Abraham thought about polygamy? Does he give a discourse or explain why he thinks it is okay to God? No. The OT is not overly concerned with doctrine at all.
So Moses kills a guy and hides his body. That is a narrative. But what does Moses think about that? How does he feel about repentance, or does he need to repent. What does Moses talk about around the campfire, or when people ask him about God? We have no idea.
The difference here, is Joseph Smith lived in the 1800’s and everything he said just about is recorded. He held classes, sermons, and whatever else, and everyone wrote everything down. Private and public discussion. We dont have that about Moses or Jonah. Who know what they talked about around the old fire, or in confidence. Who knows what they shared. Again, its a matter of not applying the same magnifying glass to your own basic belief as you do to one you dislike.
I just think its easy to set yourself apart from something happened thousands of years ago. For some reason the fantasticness of it all is easier to believe. Its easier to see the vague writings of these men and assume they were perfect. After all, there are no other accounts. It would be like 3000 years from now, and all we have about Joseph is, “He was a man that claimed to have seen God and was asked to start a church. He married emma, and then God commanded him to marry more people. He preached to the people and they arrested and killed him. Another prophet led the people named Brigham Young who took the followers west to escape persecution and find a promised land.”
That is pretty much the bible. So vague statements about old prophets marrying people and denying the preisthood to certain people (as the jews did) sounds fine in general story fashion I guess.
Nope, because I’ve actually QUOTED Mormon authorities, you have not.
Really? Please back up that statement with quotes. I’d LOVE to see them. Again, you exaggerate and make up stuff to suit your life in the Mormon bubble.
Maybe the Christ created by Jo Smith, but not the one from the Bible. Same for the BOM. In fact the Christ in the BOM is different from the one Jo taught only eight years later. So which one is it? I bet even you don’t know. Actually, the LDS Church teaches “follow the prophet”. Whatever he says, goes. You have NO SAY AT ALL in the Corporation. Sad, but true. You don’t matter at all to them, because Mormon “authorities” NEVER count the votes. They don’t allow it. It is either, obey us and agree, or “you are out of harmony with the Spirit of the Mormon God”. I’m glad you are happy with this, but that is the REAL Mormonism. It’s not baby killers, or monkeyshines or whatever else you want to say to feel “persecuted”. It’s just men running a corporation, with a little “religious talk” thrown in for good measure.
I’m not sad at all. Neither are any of the ex-Mormons who now accept the Jesus of the Bible. And really, you cry “persecution” and then look at your statement about Christianity! Look Lee, most of the Ex-Mormons I know don’t follow man made religions. They are non-denominational and believe in Jesus and his teachings. All the stuff you throw out there, is of your own imagining. You see, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. That is why in the real Christianity, there are no Popes, “prophets” etc. We have a direct link to Jesus through the Holy Spirit. I believe God is ONE GOD, a TRINITY, not because it was defined in Nicaea, but because that is the nature of God taught by Jesus and his apostles. All of you Mormons are alike. Just like JO, you think that everyone had to come through “Catholic” authority. This is ridiculous. The Holy Spirit TRUMPS it all. Jesus said, read his words, believe in him and you will be saved. The evidence of this is that you have love for God and your neighbor. To love our neighbor does not mean that we allow them to teach and practice heresy. We expose all the works of darkness. This is what Jo claimed, and what Mormons do, but when Christians do the same it is persecution. Same ol’ same ol’. And Brigham Young did not accept a PROTESTANT idea, be claimed that God told him DIRECTLY that black skin was the mark of Cain. He said it was a “REVELATION” and spoke it “in the name of the Lord.” Get it right. That is what happened. All those guys that did the Crusades, the Inquisition, and all the other stuff you abhor has nothing to do with Christianity. They did what Jo did. Took it upon themselves to say that this is what God wanted. But what God wants is for us to accept Jesus as Lord and love God and our neighbor. All the petty rules and regulations of Mormonism and the Christians religions have nothing to do with God. That is why we have his WORD. It is what we judge by. We test claimed apostles and if they do not adhere to the Word, they are false, as Jo Smith, and every other self proclaimed “prophet” that does not live by the precepts of the Bible are. Don’t put all that on me. I reject it all. I don’t need anything from any MAN. I have Jesus and the Holy Spirit and that is all I need, and Jesus said this would ALWAYS BE. It is men, with their desire to rule over others and have power that distort, twist, and forsake the Word of God to aggrandize themselves.
Yes I do. If the shoe fits…. Nah, I don’t have excuses for those prophets, I see them as they really were. They didn’t do what yours do. They didn’t contradict themselves and give false prophecies and doctrines of demons that they said were commandments of God. I TEST all who claim to be of God. It’s a simple test. You are mixing up the human condition with God’s REVELATION. I don’t care if David made mistakes. They were exposed. He paid the price. Mormons COVER UP Jo’s mistakes. They explain away Brigham’s false doctrine and yet put him on a pedestal. The Bible doesn’t do that. Moses paid for his mistake by not getting to see the promised land. David went to hell. Jonah got eaten by a whale. But they weren’t conning people with false revelations, breaking commandments, and living a lie. Jo could not even live by his OWN RULES. He broke those constantly. He taught that God was one thing, then another. He proved himself false over and over again. If I lived then, I would believe Jesus because he had the teachings and the MIRACLES to back up what he said. He didn’t say, I believe in ONE man ONE woman marriage, and then have 32 wives in hypocrisy to his words. Jo LIED in public again and again. Jesus did not. You say I’m full of hate, but you hate the truth, so you say I’m full of hate. I’m only full of your own “prophets” words. You can’t stand the fact that I have the truth of it. And I’m only reading exactly what the Bible SAID about Jonah. That is what YOU can’t accept. You seldom quote scripture, NEVER quote your leaders, and NEVER NEVER NEVER refute what I say with their own words. Reason why, you can’t and so you make up stuff about me and this page.
How right you are! Because I don’t want to be FORCED to pay tithing to build malls, have men tell me what to eat and drink, and support racism, immorality and the denigration of women and worship a false god.
This again, is a straw man argument that has no merit. You don’t know what I do with my time. I spend very little of it here. Yet to you and your friends in the bubble, it is “all I do”. That is so laughable. And what microscope would you apply to the teachings of Jesus and the Bible? That is ALL I BELIEVE IN. I need nothing else. Do you want to denigrate that now that you know I believe it? That is what you Mormons do. You know nothing about MY faith. In fact, I quoted extensively from the Bible for the last few weeks, more than I quoted Mormon Authorities, but that is lost to you. You all ignore it and complain that my posts are too long. When we do quote your authorities, you say we take them out of context. Then when we quote them in FULL, we are making posts that are too long for you. You have an excuse for everything except the false teachings of your “prophets”.
I don’t follow the pope. Again, you HAVE to go there, because you have nothing else. And yes, Young and Smith said “find the truth”, but if someone disagreed with THEIR TRUTH, they were out of luck. It is always about don’t disagree with “the Lord’s anointed”. There is no free agency in Mormonism. That died with Jo Smith. At least in his day THEY DID VOTE and it meant something. Today, NO ONE can cast a disagreeing vote or they will be tossed out of the Tabernacle. They will be charged with apostasy for not “following the brethren”. This is one of the great lies of Mormonism. It’s a corporation now, and the President has all the power. You are only member of that, and must conform or be cut off. Nothing is done by the Holy Spirit, it is all done by three men who have absolute dictatorial power. You AGREE to it. That is as far as your “agency” goes. You believe what you want, but you can’t TEACH what you want. ONLY what THEY SAY. That’s right Lee, you can leave the CHURCH. But if you have the HOLY SPIRIT, it never leaves you, no matter where you go. If you run, run to Jesus and His word. That is what I preach. It’s all found in the BIBLE alone. You do base your faith on man, because you live by the rules of men. The New Covenant has nothing in it about tithing, baptism for the dead, temples, eating regulations etc., etc. That is all man made and what you follow. You can’t even get in your own temple without affirming that you follow the prophet:
Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?
Say no and see what your free agency gets you. Say no publicly and criticize them for any reason and that would be all for you. Paul could come to Peter and “oppose him to his face”. NO ONE can oppose a Mormon prophet to his face and correct him. That is what those who did not agree with the ban on polygamy did and they were ousted real quick. The ONLY reason polygamy was banned was because the Church leaders did not want to leave the U.S. If they were really prophets, they would have obeyed their God’s command and moved where they could practice what he commanded, of defied the law and give up their property. But the material things were more important to them. That is who you follow.
And that is fine but Jo claimed to speak FOR AND AS GOD. If one makes such a claim, they had better be able to back it up. Jo could not. Neither can any of your other “prophets”. God does not teach racism, sexual immorality or keep affirming as prophets those who did, as your leaders STILL DO. He does not give a prophet a command, and then have the same prophet break it and contradict it. He doesn’t work that way. He doesn’t send angels with drawn swords to force people to commit sin. He just doesn’t do such things. Anyone who says so, is a false prophet. And God sure would not have his own prophet identify him as a pagan fertility god.
What really irritates me about you Lee, is that you come here and then claim persecution. You claim things about us that you know nothing about. When I left the church I had nothing to do with it for 25 years. It was only when the Mormons knocked on MY DOOR in 2007 that I got thrown into this debate. This is what you forget: You have Missionaries devoting their full time converting Christians and anyone else they can, yet you denigrate those that are critical of your faith. Your reasoning about doctrine, about your teachings and everything else is faulty and you learn it from your fallible leaders. Spiritually fallible leaders who lie for the Lord, the “Corporation”, the real God of Mormonism. I have had plenty of discussions with Mormons who are nothing like you. They accept the facts. They don’t try to cover them up or spout nonsense to those that know all about the Church. I RESPECT them for that. They, unlike you, live outside the bubble.
Fightinglee
Perhaps in time you will get around to answering the genuine queries that I politely asked of you on another post but for now I would like to comment what you said to Grindael
“Most of the posters on this site act as if the church is teaching some horrid doctrine and stealing babies in the night, practicing witchcraft and drinking monkey’s blood. Look, the LDS faith has brought me closer to Christ. The book of mormon has brought me closer to Christ. The teachings I find in the LDS faith teach a simple doctrine, follow God’s commandments, love others, repent, follow Christ’s teachings, accept the attonement and press forward with faith. That is it in a nutshell. That is what you will find in the LDS faith.”
Perhaps Lee it’s because as far as Christians are concerned you are teaching ‘horrid doctrines’ so now I’ll ask you this, why do you mention only the things that all Christians practice? Why not tell us some of the less savoury aspects practised by the LDS? Why not tell us about the absolute authority of your leaders? Why not tell us about having to pay the Corporation so as to be ‘Temple worthy’ claiming it’s a tithe when it is nothing less than a mockery of the biblical tithe & which anyway is not applicable to Christians. Instead of telling us that you teach love for others why not tell us about the shunning of people who leave? Instead of telling us that you accept the atonement why not add that that the atonement is conditional upon following the laws laid down by your prophets? Is it the fictional content of the BofM that brought you closer to Christ or was it the plagiarized parts of the Bible contained in that book?
“Grindael, if you lived back in the OT times, you would be stoning Jonah as you want to do with God’s modern prophets”
What you say above is almost a carbon copy of what Shem said to me, that if I was living in OT times I would be stoning Christ, I would really like to know what drives Mormons to make such ridiculous assertions.
“You spend your time attacking it, because simply, you have nothing better to do. Your own faith is not meaningful enough to support you apparently.”
That’s a rather silly thing to say, what a pity you can’t see that it is the false & heretical teachings of Mormonism itself that causes people to attack it & as I said before, it is incumbent upon any Christian to attack false teachings.
Fightinglee,
I really dont like your generalities of ex Mormons. I didn’t leave Mormonism because the LDS Church has a shady history. I didn’t leave because men aren’t perfect. I left because the doctrine isn’t perfect. LDS doctrine changes the nature of God. LDS doctrine mocks Christ’s sacrifice with its “saving ordinances.” It is founded on a man, and not Christ himself. There is no reason anyone should believe that Joseph Smith is anything more than a false prophet. If Mormonism is making you happy fine. I didn’t leave because I wasn’t happy. I lived a very happy Mormon life and lived it as fully as any other Mormon. I left because I believe that there is absolute truth and I don’t believe Mormonism has that absolute truth. I am happier and feel more connected to my Savior since leaving the LDS Church. The key words are happier and more connected. This doesnt mean I was sad or not connected to God as a Mormon. It means I have increased in those things. Isn’t it funny that I feel closer to God than ever before but the LDS Church says I will never be with God? You can say people are attacking the LDS Church all you want. But the LDS faith, by its doctrine has been and still is offensive.
flee,
This is a little unusual for me but I’m starting to feel sorry for you.
Your debating primarily former Mormons. They didn’t leave for the reasons that Mormons like to assign to those who leave. They left because as most of them have told you, they found Mormonism and the LDS church to not be true.
You don’t have to take it personally. It has nothing to do with you.
According to you, no one on this blog knows anything. I don’t know. It appears to me that these folks have above average intelligence and are very good at expressing what they have found in their research.
You’re just going to have to accept the fact that people have the ability to do research, find the evidence and draw conclusions.
Interestingly, these former Mormons were at one time gung ho for the LDS church.
Perhaps there is hope for you also.
Fightinglee,
Since you are not a neo-Mormon and therfore your spiritual testimony means absolutely everything to you, what if you prayed about the Qur’an and had the most intense burning in your bosom ever? Would you convert to Islam?
Fightin glee, I have news for you, I am not even close to be sad, what is sad, is when some 6 yr old kid is being told in his ear to say ” I know this is the only true church ” that is sad , or hearing people say ” the church is perfect , but the people are not ” as a former missionary and leader, I SAID THOSE SAME WORDS.
When I FOUND A LIE IN A CHURCH BOOK , that my mission pres said to buy, can i still say the church is true ? what a joke.or the the church is perfect , but its people are not, looks like a escape hatch, to every single coverup i didn’t know at age 17, and if it cant be covered up, lets rationalize it and spin it.
With Christ you dont have to spin anything, with Joseph , my gosh, I actually believed he had a vision, lol, what a joke .
Its sad for those who stay in and waste there life believing that lie or pack of lies.
The last quote at the bottom pretty much summarizes what we hear from the TBMs who post here. Everyone who doesn’t believing in Joseph Smith as a prophet and the Utah based LDS church as the one true church, is just getting it all wrong. In-other-words, they have all of this information but are drawing the wrong conclusions.
For example, Joseph Smith had 33 wives. Several of these wives were married to other men who were members of Smith’s church. He even “married” a couple of 14 year old girls. Now any conclusion other than that these were holy unions ordained by God is just plain wrong.
That’s how it works. It’s sort of like reading the BoM and concluding that it is false. That’s an unacceptable response. The only correct response is that the BoM is true. So if you don’t conclude that, there’s something wrong with how you prayed or how you read the book. It is not acceptable that you’ve concluded that it’s not true.
It takes a whole lot of mind bending to be a Mormon. As Dr. Walter Martin said: “A Mormon is able to think logically in every area of their life except when it comes to their religion.”
“Each of us has to face the matter–Either the church is true or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.” –Gordon B. Hinckley, General Conference, April 2003
“If a faith will not bear to be investigated: if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.” –George Albert Smith, Journal Of Discourses, v 14, p 216
“Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God…or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground.” –Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, p 188.
“Some have immersed themselves in Internet materials that magnify, exaggerate, and, in some cases, invent shortcomings of early Church leaders. Then they draw incorrect conclusions that can affect testimony. Any who have made these choices can repent and be spiritually renewed.”
Elder Quentin L. Cook, of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles
Mistaken testimony, welcome .
Grindael, thanks to you and the other former Mormons here , non-Mormons reading
Fightinglee’s excuses won’t be bamboozled by him.
Falcon, I agree with you that Fightinglee does have a chance to experience freedom
from the confines of a false prophet led organization and receive a complete , saving relationship
with God through Jesus Christ .