An article intended for another time accidentally posted on Mormon Coffee this morning. I decided to take it off line in order to allow the conversation to focus on the article about Church History that also posted this morning. I’ll repost “Mormonism and the heresy of the Anthropomorphites” along with its two comments later this week (or perhaps next week). Sorry for the confusion. -Sharon
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No worries, Sharon! Thanks for all of your hard work on this blog!
Sharon,
I second Kenneth’s comment .
I got nothing to say, I guess I’ll blow my own horn, just like the angel moroni, always blowing his own horn…
Mistaken,
Dont forget, The angel Moroni had a name change. He was not always the angel LDS think he was.
RickB,
If you keep bringing up truths from history you might shake somebody’s testimony…
I remember talking to somebody, I think it was shematwater, and the conversation was on what symbols are placed on steeples. So I called the angel moroni an unbiblical angel and he came back with Rev 14.6 as I predicted. It’s funny how all of these post-Christian cults always build their theology off of the eschatological literature. If anyone read the Bible on an island they would walk away with only one symbol before them: the Cross. I guess considering that Mormons only have the symbol of Rev 14.6 before them shows one thing really, they have never truly read the Bible.
Mistaken said
I can only pray this happens
Since this is an Oops page may I ask a question to a TBM? Do you accept the Heartland or Mesoamerican geography? I am like clay in your hand, please tell me which you accept and convince me if you feel compelled, I am just genuinely curious (in particular from FoF, but any true believer would be welcome of course).
@Sharon
Nothing like owning up and saying sorry. Kudos. I only wish other organizations (hint, hint) would do the same.
@ Rick B
Care to share the name change …
Rikki,
In 1842, Joseph Smith first said, the angel nephi appeared to me. Later it was the angel moroni. In reality it was the angel lucifer, the father of lies.
So which angel was it?
Hello all. I have been going through your site, and its pretty well done. I am seeing the mormon missionaries and it has actually been a really good experience for me and my family. I will admit, there are a lot of things to sort through, and like with any religion, it is hard to sort through fact and fiction. I thought your site was a good source, but the more I look at it, the more I wonder how honest it is. I have been studying the LDS church pretty deeply, and with two friends, one that left the church and is coming back and another that is also taking the discussions. My friend coming back to the church is here with me, and he makes good points about most of these kind of sites.
Like with Rick’s comment above. I was like, wow! But my friend said no, it’s not like that. We found sources pretty fast that show that Joseph Smith never did say he saw he saw the angel Nephi. Actually, everything shows he always said Moroni. But a paper called the Times and Season once ran a story using another article as a source and made the mistake. It was in my friends history of the church, volume 7. That is why investigating churches is so hard it seems. I want to trust my feelings, and I have never felt so good about a church before now. But there is all this negative stuff out there about it too, but I dont see any of it. And then when i find stuff that seems dishonest like from Rick’s comment, that only leads me further to believe a lot of this negative stuff is made up. My friend says he left the church originally because he thought he had been lied to, but then outside of the church, among the x-members, he thought that the lies were even worse. What do you guys think here? What am i really supposed to be afraid of in this church? It seems great to me. I feel great in it. My family loves it. This site just seems to be a place to bash something good. I want the truth, and not bogus stories, from either party, the LDS church or those that don’t like it.
Lilly,
I’ll offer my thoughts, for better or for worse. I will try to be honest and unbiased in this response, though I fully admit I am a Christian, not LDS.
If I were telling someone searching for a church, the first thing I would ask is what is they want from the church. Is it simply to feel good? Or to grow spiritually? What about being challenged and growing closer to God? Each church is different in these regards, and it is important to know what it is you want.
The second thing I would ask is what you believe about God. Do you already believe in God, and if so, what do you believe about him? Does this belief represent truth? Does the church you are looking at line up with that? Can you accept the new beliefs if they are different? (This is true even going from a Baptist to a Methodist church.)
Third, I would encourage you to search all the information available to you about a church. This includes talking with people as well as looking into their literature. Look at positives and negatives from all sources. Understand that “lies” may not be lies. Understand that “truth” may not be truth. Be comprehensive, too. For an immediate example, the Smith/angel issue is not the only situation wherein you will find LDS saying, “Well, that’s not really true” despite it being in their leading historical documents. (I really don’t intend to pick on LDS at the moment– do this with other churches, as well.)
And, given that you are considering the LDS church (assuming you are Christian now) you can’t forget that at stake is more than a church you attend. It is therefore important to know what the church believes. Know that the Mormon God is very different from the traditional Christian God. Know that the groups will use very similar verbiage to describe their theology but they mean vastly different things with that verbiage. Knowing that these differences exist is hugely important.
Finally, I would advise that choosing a church, any church, is far more an extensive process than “feeling good”. Knowing that you are not being led astray with its teaching cannot be understated in terms of importance.
Now, I’ll end by saying that I cannot pretend to choose your church for you. You must decide whether to join the LDS church, a Methodist church, a Baptist church or a Catholic church on your own. I simply encourage you to know exactly what you are getting into if you are seriously considering any of these and more. And knowing exactly what you are getting into means knowing a lot more than relying on a feeling. There are a lot of things that feel great that are very, very wrong.
I want to thank Sharon, Aaron and the other contributors to this site as there is a great dialogue that is taking place here between believers throughout both sides of the spectrum. My wife and I have left the Mormon faith within the last few years leaving a culture that has sustained both of our families since the ‘restoration’ movement began. I have served in many capacities in the LDS church e.g. scouting, leadership assignments, mission, temple marriage, ect. I’ve been observing and listening to the discussions on this site for about a year and I’m amazed by what is going on. I wasn’t intending to register, totally content at watching the drama unfold, but no longer. I hope to add something to the discussions and engage with those who contribute here, so once again thank you to those who make this forum possible. I believe that Jesus is who he said He is, and as I turn to follow Him I find the LDS church at my back, it’s that simple. I have no faith in who Joseph Smith said he is and would love to talk honestly about the subject to anyone who is honestly willing to listen. To start off I would say to LillyPad- “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” Jeremiah 17:9
Have you ever been deceived by your feelings, ever? Only you can answer that question and if you answer in the affirmative than maybe that answer can aid you in your search for the Truth. I encourage you to look at everything associated with the LDS faith and above all else to seek His will because ultimately you and I individually are alone on this planet, came alone and leave alone, and ultimately you go back to your Creator with the faith He gave you. Look forward to more discussion and God bless you all.
Lillypad,
You said, “I want to trust my feelings, and I have never felt so good about a church before now.”
Truth is not relative and relying on your own subjective and personal feelings is not at all a reliable metric to gauge the truth. Something is true or false regardless what kind of feeling you have about it.
Then you said, “And then when i find stuff that seems dishonest like from Rick’s comment, that only leads me further to believe a lot of this negative stuff is made up.”
Rick did not make this up. Read http://mormonthink.com/nephiweb.htm#full (and in fact, read the whole website if you have not). Truth is truth regardless how we feel about it being true or not.
You also said, “What am i really supposed to be afraid of in this church? It seems great to me. I feel great in it. My family loves it.”
Once again, you are basing truth on your subjective experience and feelings rather than objective realities. What are you supposed to be afraid of? Things not being as they “seem”, the eternal consequences are huge.
Lilypad,
No offence but I think you really need to question your LDS friends and ask them just how honest they are. Why am I a liar? I said the angel Moroni was called Nephi before Moroni, your LDS friends admited that and showed you that was true. So how does that make me a liar?
I understand they claim it was an error that was made, but still even if it was an error, they showed you that name change existed. So at the very least they are being dishonest in the sence of, no one came here and asked me, Rick, were you aware that this name change was a mistake? If I said, no I was not aware of that, then I am not a liar. This is an unfounded attack and shows your friends dont care about the truth, by making such a claim about me.
Now If they really feel the way they do and feel they have the truth, then invite them to reply on this blog, if they dont, no matter what excuses they make, I would question how sincere they really are.
Just go back over the last few topics and see and read for yourself. Take Mormon FoF for example.
He dodged so many questions, and others besides me pointed this out to Him. He told me, name one I dodged, I did, he still has not answered me. Then before you or others make excuses for him about why he still has not replied, Know this, He told me to point just one question out he dodged. I did, then he had the gall to go to a new topic a day or two later, call out Sharon and claim she was being dishonest. Went into great detail on it, but could not answer me after claiming He could. Then when I pointed this out, he leaves and has yet to been seen or heard.
Lily pad, Like it or not, this is very typical of Mormons, they dont really know what they believe and can only accuse us of being wrong as your friends did, but when it comes to honest debate, they wont do it. Think I am wrong, ask your friends to post in reply to me, if they wont, then I proved my point. If they will, then we shall see how long they last and the replys they give. Rick
I apologize for calling you a liar, Rick. That sounds pretty harsh. I dont find what you are saying to be true though and it definitely doesnt help your argument. My friend very much knows about the LDS church. He quickly laid out what you said and showed me sources of where Joseph Smith told the story. It was always Moroni, from as far back as the early 1830’s. There is evidence. You said he first said it was Nephi in 1842. Sorry, but that’s not true, and so you will understand if I dont take your argument seriously. Either you dont know much about the LDS church history or you are intentionally telling some mistruths about it. My friend showed me one lone source where something was copied, NOT by Joseph Smith and it said Nephi and an article from a paper there reprinted it. I’m sorry, but that just isn’t a very good argument for why a church is wrong or a good reason to make such a hurtful claim as to say mormons dont know what they believe. I haven’t found that at all. In fact, they seem to be much more educated than most other church goers I know. I dont know what you mean as far as debate??? Do you have some evidence to refute my assessment that there is no evidence Joseph Smith ever said it was Nephi and not Moroni, and that he first said it in 1842?? Because I do research for a living, and while I am not Mormon, I find your argument to fail on several levels of accuracy.
MJP. Thank you for your well thought out response!!!! I really appreciate it. I strongly note your emphasis on “feeling good”. I guess I didn’t express myself completely. Without a doubt I do feel strongly about how the LDS church has made me “feel” and how it has changed and helped my family. I think that is somewhere to start. Christ did say that he would send his comforter didn’t he? I believe I have felt it at the LDS church unlike at any other time in my life. I was raised Baptist. I won’t say much about that experience, but I did not like it much and had some bad experiences. I never felt the spirit there that i can remember, though you may not give that much credence anyway. It also just never resonated with me for several reason, but I am not trying to put it down. I apologize beforehand for any baptists here. I am not trying to put down the Baptist church. That was my experience.
I am pretty skeptical of “feelings” too MJP. Really. If it were just the feelings and nothing else, that might not be enough for me, no matter how strong. I am not by default a person of great spirituality. I have been in the field of science too long I guess!
The LDS doctrine, which i know from looking at this site is not well accepted here, makes sense to me. Their explanations of God and the bible make more sense to me. I know people here wont like that and will disagree. I practiced Catholicism too for some time after leaving the baptist church because I wanted religion back in my life, but again, I just couldn’t stand all the saints stuff and some of the superstitious traditions. And i got the run around when i asked questions I felt like. Again, sorry if I am offending any Catholics.
I spent some of my life just reading the bible on my own. I am not uneducated, and I was definitely not a foreigner to the bible or religious study. I am not even totally new to mormonism, but I am new to the idea of joining it. I honestly understand their classes and explanations of the bible better and they make more sense. I am a little unsure of why some of these doctrines from the LDS church are so hated by other faiths, and why people get so angry towards mormons. I just dont get it. Most of the one’s i know are great people and nothing about the doctrine is threatening to me.
I will continue to do just what you say, MJP, and research as much as I can. I have attended several different churches in the last year, and I am still very much reading the bible, and yes, the book of mormon. I have also started reading the Doctrine and Covenants and I do a fair amount of study from other sources. I went to several other sites against mormonism but found them to be pretty crude at times, and overly disrespectful. Looking at it, it seems that the ones that have left the LDS church are often the worst on those sites. It almost seems like there is this phase where it is just so hysterical to make some really foul and disgusting remarks about things they once held to be sacred. The internet can be a horrid place sometimes.
Oh, and I apologize to the other responses. They were addressing the same thing as MJP about feelings. That definitely seemed to be a go to comment I guess. Wow! I agree, though, feelings can be deceptive. I don’t want to have a silly argument about feelings though here on the internet and besides, I guess I agree to some degree, because I am still researching.
Isaiah 11:2 is the best i can describe my first visit to the LDS church. And I have felt it on occasion since, but it is not like anything before. I actually hate to bring it up, because I fear some people here will mock it and it has been a special event in my life. The first time I went to an LDS service, I went by chance. I was driving home from a friend’s house on a Sunday morning and passed a church building where people were entering in. For some reason wholly unknown to me now (its hard to get back in my state of mind at the time), I pulled my car in. Fortunately i was in halfway normal clothes, and though I felt weird in a pair of jeans, I stayed. Again, Isaiah 11:2 is the best way i can describe what i felt. I discounted it. It actually took 2 months of that experience nagging at me before I went back and began talking to my friend who was a member. You can discount your feelings all you want (I speak collectively to those who challenge it) but you don’t get to discount mine. Just as I would not discount yours.
PaleRider, welcome .
Lillypad,
you’ve stated that the Mormon church makes you feels great . I’m sure it does , and I’m sure
that the people you meet there are friendly people , lots of activities , etc . If you’re looking
for a place where good morals are taught , then the Mormon church is one of those places .
However, there is more to embracing spiritual truths neceaasry to receiving eternal life in
heaven than just an environment of friendly people who live moral lives . ( In fact , not even
Mormon leaders have taught that is enough ) . Realize that good people can be misled by men
in these latter days who mimic the claims of Jesus’ church officers who taught in His church
long ago ( see Matt 24:11; 2Cor11:15) . Realize that not all false prophets/apostles are immoral
or conniving individuals , some can live moral lives , be well dressed , and courteous . This is
something that people lose sight of in evaluating prophets today in order to ascertain if they can
really trust these men to be teaching accurately about God, Jesus, and how to receive eternal
life . So beware because feelings can be fickle . Look beyond your feelings and the smiley faces
you encounter . Look to scripture and test —-1 John 4:1 .
I should also share with you that if you meet with the Mormon Missionaries without having
a person there who is knowledgeable in both Bible doctrine and Mormon doctrine then you
are not going to fare well , you’re already on a slippery slope .
Available yourself of the info available on MRM . It can help with hearing the other side of the
story . May you take the necessary precautions to avoid being detoured by false prophets
today . If you remember one thing then remember this : to receive a right relationship with
God resulting in eternal life in heaven with Him and the fullest blessings therein , you need
Jesus , you do not need Joseph .
Take care.
Thank you Mike. I will keep all that in mind. To comment back. I dont believe at any point in my time at the LDS church have i ever thought once that i needed Joseph to be saved. The mormon church teaches he was a prophet. So the isrealites didnt need moses either to be saved, except that Moses was the one that was teaching them about God. He was God’s mouthpiece. I have not seen it taught by any mormon differently to this point. I appreciate your warning though and its a great point anway. Certainly Christ is the ONLY way!
Well, if I cannot use the spirit for discernment, what do you propose other than my own intellect? If you were me, and you were faced with the LDS doctrine, or let’s say the baptist doctrine, and both taught of Jesus and following Jesus in every meeting. They both teach from the bible, and the mormon’s seem to really focus on the bible more than I expected to be honest. They have whole classes on it, and these institute classes as well. The classes i have attended were not that much different than baptist ones i attended, but the mormon ones actually make more sense to me honestly.
I see the argument many times that mormons are going to hell. I find that to be a sort of conundrum. For instance, as a kid, I knew a terrible man in the baptist church that did some horrible things but he always claimed to love Jesus and believe in him. Is he saved? His actions didnt seem to support his faith from my viewpoint. Some poeple say, no, he wont, because while grace can save all, it is accessed by faith, and that man’s actions showed he didnt believe. Some people say yes, he is saved. I tend to believe in the first statement, and not the latter. However, that sounds very much like Mormon theology about grace. Mormons actually believe all WILL be saved by grace to some degree. But is our faith, which would promote action, that can allow Christs’ full grace to save us. That doesn’t sound much different. There are a lot of semantics i hear in the arguments that a lot of people throw against Mormons and it does not all sound justified. So why won’t a mormon be saved?
Hey Lillypad,
In the scheme of things the name of the angel with the trumpet is not that important when you really think about it. What is important is what “gospel” the angel was proclaiming.
I have to wonder why you choose that to check out the name of the angel when there is a recent topic here claiming that it is unclear in Mormon theology whether the Father is sinless or not. that seems to be a more important topic don’t you agree.
you said,
Without a doubt I do feel strongly about how the LDS church has made me “feel”
I say,
I understand that you have warm feelings surrounding the LDS but are you sure that those sorts of feelings are what you would expect from the Spirit of God?
I would only remind you that the comforter that Jesus said he would send is not supposed to “feel” warm and inviting He is supposed to feel convicting
quote:
And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
(John 16:8)
end quote:
If you are not feeling conviction perhaps it is not the Spirit of God that you feel. the way to know for sure is to test it to see if it listens to the folks who wrote the Bible
quote:
We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
(1 John 4:6)
end quote:
you said,
I am a little unsure of why some of these doctrines from the LDS church are so hated by other faiths, and why people get so angry towards mormons. I just dont get it.
I say,
If you don’t mind I would like to suggest you spend some time trying to understand why Christians don’t like the Mormon doctrines you speak about.
I can tell you that in my case I take the Gospel very personally and when I see seemingly good clean cut nice people counterfeiting and corrupting the precious good news of Christ it kind of riles me up.
My Lord felt the same way you know
quote:
Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering.”
(Luke 11:52)
end quote:
peace
Lillipad,
If I can suggest anything, do your own research. Read “Joseph Smith Rough Stone Rolling,” it’s the best pro LDS book out there that is relatively unbiased. Spend time on Mormonthink.com. I left Mormonism before finding that site, the information is what I found myslef and is accurate. Read some of the Journal of Discourses, you will be shocked by the atrocities taught by these so called “prophets.” Read the New Testament for what it says without the Mormons spin on things. Listen to some of the stories on sacredgrovesonline.org. Watch some interviews with Grant Palmer on youtube. Watch the temple ceremony video that is on youtube. I loved being Mormon. The people are great. The community support is amazing. But if you are looking for truth and for your salvation, you won’t find it there.
Also study early Christianity. Read the Church Fathers. No Mormonism. No Apostasy.
Thanks Jaxi. I will look into those things. Funny you mention Rough Stone Rolling. I have started that and very much like it. I also read the New Testament for many many years before ever attending an LDS class. I don’t know what you mean by spin? I don’t see that spin. I do love the classes though and many of them mesh with my own learning long before looking into the mormon faith. Any bibilical things in particular you found to be so wrong?? Thanks. I have looked into mormonthink before but will look again. I found some erroneus stuff, kind of like the stuff Rick linked to. That article has some mistakes in it and leaves out a lot of stuff.
Speaking of that, Rick. I did read that whole article, and I also read this one.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Moroni's_visit/Nephi_or_Moroni
That mormonthink article left a lot of stuff out of it. See, those kinds of things really turn me off to sites like that and arguments by people that use them. That article by mormonthink was really lacking in a lot of key elements there, which of course appears to be the intent. That is just from an outside point of view that quite frankly, finds a lot of religious things hard to accept. Not just mormon religious stuff either. If you step out from all religion, and not just poking at mormons, I think you will find inconsistencies in your own belief system. As far as Nephi vs Moroni?? After reading that article I sent, its really a non issue and underlines the dishonesty of mormonthink to me, but I will look through it at some different things i was wondering about.
Lillypad,
You said, “I knew a terrible man in the baptist church that did some horrible things”. We are all terrible people and are all—the entire human race—wicked in our thoughts and actions and worthy of death and God’s wrath.
You said, “Mormons actually believe all WILL be saved by grace to some degree.” This is heresy so far removed from the Bible that it cannot even remotely be called “Christ-ian”.
You ask, “So why won’t a mormon be saved?” Because they believe in a different Gospel than the only true Gospel of the Bible. If Mormons follow a different Jesus and a different “gospel” then they will suffer eternally. I don’t say that joyfully but with much sorrow. And it is not sufficient to say that we both serve Jesus, because we serve 2 completely different Jesus, and only one can be true. Either you are a true Christian and I am a heretic or I am a true Christian and you are a heretic, but we are not both true Christians.
Lillypad,
You said, “That mormonthink article left a lot of stuff out of it.” I just read both articles and did not walk away with that at all. I saw more left out of the FAIR article. Where was “a lot of stuff [left] out”?
Lillipad,
I am not sure of why you criticized mormonthink.com’s information. It provides the LDS response and very clearly shows the LDS argument of there being a mistake. I’m unsure of what key elements you are referring to. Like I said, I found almost all the Mormonthink info on my own before finding the site. I never found it to be dishonest. Fair and Farms have greater history of dishonesty, and in the past have just been plain mean and attacking. Though I think they have recently been trying to clean that up a bit. I have stepped outside of all religion when I left Mormonism and I can’t think of any inconsistencies in my belief system. If I have some I can’t think of any, I am much more at peace now then when I was in Mormonism. Mormonism has its own spin to everything. It’s theology is so unique and not anywhere in Christian history, it has to cherry pick verses out of context in order to support its doctrine. What do I find wrong Biblicly about Mormonism? Where to start? Ordinances save you, Temples, their interpretation of priesthood, the nature of God, requirement of marriage, Eve’s disobedience was a good thing, polygamy, word of wisdom, that God abandoned His Church… I could go on and on.
Ok, Lilypad,
You still feel I lied and am wrong, so how about these here? Have you read this?
“When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi. That God has a work for me to do… He said there was a book deposited written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang.” Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith, The Book of Mormon.
Regarding the angelic visitation where Joseph was shown the gold plates, it was originally recorded:
“He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi.” (The Times and Seasons Vol. III, pp. 749, 753)
In modern printings of the History of the Church, this has been changed to read “Moroni”. It is interesting to note that Joseph Smith lived for two years after the name “Nephi” was printed in Times and Seasons and he never published a retraction.
In August, 1842, the Millennial Star, printed in England, also published Joseph Smith’s story stating that the angel’s name was “Nephi” (see Millennial Star, Vol. 3, p. 53). On page 71 of the same volume we read that the “…message of the angel Nephi…opened a new dispensation to man…”
In 1853, Joseph’s mother, Lucy Mack Smith, also said the angel’s name was Nephi (Biographical Sketches, p. 79).
The name was also published in the Pearl of Great Price (1851 edition, p. 41) as “Nephi”. The original handwritten manuscript of the Pearl of Great Price dictated by Joseph Smith reveals that the name was originally written as “Nephi,” but that someone at a later date wrote the word “Moroni” above the line. All evidence indicates that this change was made after Joseph’s death. Walter L. Whipple, in his thesis written at BYU, stated that Orson Pratt “published The Pearl of Great Price in 1878, and removed the name of Nephi from the text entirely and inserted the name Moroni in its place” (Textual Changes in the Pearl of Great Price, typed copy, p. 125).
Lastly, in 1888 J. C. Whitmer made this statement (it should be noted that a majority of the Book of Mormon is alleged to have been translated in the Whitmer home):
“I have heard my grandmother (Mary M. Whitmer) say on several occasions that she was shown the plates of the Book of Mormon by an holy angel, whom she always called Brother Nephi.” (John C. Whitmer, “The Eight Witnesses”, The Historical Record, Volume 7, October, 1888, p. 621)
I posted more than just one or two sources for the Nephi vs Moroni issue. Now while it is true this does not prove or deny Mormonism true or false, but this shows That I did not just make this up, and it shows you either new all this was their and you never mentioned it when you told me I was wrong, which if you knew, you made it sound like their was only one source. But if you did not know it existed, then you dont know as much as you claim.
Lilypad, in responce to what the link you provide says, Here you go.
LDS apologists argue that the references cited above may propagate a transcription error omitted during the 1838 manuscript recitation. It is claimed that Joseph or his scribe perhaps tangled the names in the process. While this is possible, it defies credibility that the error would then go undetected for four years, pass review for inclusion in the Times & Seasons, not be corrected in any subsequent issue, and then recur in 1851 in the printing of the Pearl of Great Price.
Now when you claim in a round about way, Mormons are so pure and honest and we all Non-lds seem to go after them, let me say this.
LDS prophets once taught, the Black LDS will NEVER GET THE PRIESTHOOD. Then all of a sudden that changes. Why did the prophet claim it is a law of God this will not happen, then it is now from God?
Also as far as blacks go, the BoM taught they would turn white, but when that failed, it was changed to say, they will become pure. I have a copy of the BoM that states they will be white. I showed it to some Mormon missionarys at my house and we compared books. Their copy said pure. Now as I point out before, One Mormon on this blog made the excuse, it was just an updating in Language.
I said really? the BoM is barly a few hundred years old and we need and updating of the lagunage? Seems like a good cover to solve why blacks did not turn white but pure instead. I also pointed out, I can see a black man turning white, but not pure.
How about what I might call plagurism issues. You mean when JS translated the golden plates that word for word bible verse came through in K.J. English? What about the fact that the reformed Language does not exist. I could keep going. But from what I read by you, you want to believe no matter what anyone says, and no matter what evidence you encounter, you will believe what you want.
Lilypad said
This is not true. All Jack Mormons will not be saved, Lucifer is supposdly the Brother of Jesus and he will not be saved. So either all means all and all will be saved, or not all will be saved. Also if you are implying that a religion is true or false because that religion teaches all will be saved vs not everyone will be saved is a stupid way to view truth. The Apostle Paul said if anyone teaches another Gospel even an Angel (Moroni) from Heaven, let him, it be damned. Jesus even spoke of hell and the eternal damnation that awaits. People decive themselves thinking hell is not real.
Lilipad,
The critics of the church take the same approach and make the very same arguments that atheists do with the Bible. There is really no difference. It is the position of cynicism and doubt. They take the negative assumption at every point on the decision tree. They will always appeal to the “carnal mind.” What is the “carnal mind?” Check out Alma 30 in the Book of Mormon.
I discovered the Book of Mormon when I was 18. I was an addicted criminal with no self-control and no future. I had failed in High School and could not have cared less. I found a copy of the Book of Mormon and decided to read it for one hour every day as an experiment. I read it 8 times in 6 months. It changed everything about my life. The influence of that book on my life cannot be overstated. Night and day. Years later, I have a very fulfilling profession that required many years of training and a post-doctorate degree. I have a loving, beautiful family and could not be happier in my life. My relationship with God is everything to me and I feel His love overwhelmingly. Everything good in my life- and there is tons- has come as a result of reading that book.
I often think about and relate very well to the blind man healed by Christ in the New Testament. After interrogating the man’s parents, the Pharisees called for the blind man to testify regarding his healing at the hands of Christ for a second time before the officials. Of that man, the Bible says, “Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner. He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see. Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes? He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again?”
Like that blind man, “whereas I was blind, now I see.” While, in my estimation, there is a mountain of evidence to support the claims of the Book of Mormon, the greatest evidence of the book for me is its influence in my life. I have no desire to brag- I am a very imperfect person with tons of flaws. But I have to stand and give credit where it is due.
My advice is to read the Book of Mormon independent of other influences. It convinced me of my need for Christ and has brought me closer to Him than any other thing I know. Make it an experiment and really think about the words in the book. Be prayerful and humble before God. The Holy Ghost is the most reliable source of truth.
Just like it convinces the Fundamental Mormons who think the Salt Lake Branch is led by false prophets. This proves that it doesn’t work. And Parley P. Pratt, a Mormon “Apostle”, (“prophet, seer & revelator” so ordained in the “priesthood” that obviously has no power) PROVED it was false in 1838 by his own failed prophecy. All the feelings in the world can’t make something that is false, true. And where are those “mountains of evidence”? They will NEVER be forthcoming from FOF folks, never. And only Mormons bring up Atheists. It’s a desperate ploy that they use when the outside world starts squeezing their bubble of denial.
So FoF,
You want to play the I bear my boastamony game, I will play.
I was 5 years old and needed to see a shrink for anger issues, Before I was 16 years old I had a restraning order put on my by a Christian Pastor. I had the local cops, then the sheriff then some dectives stoping by my house weekly. My dad kicked me out when I was only 16 years old. I lived on the streets of Maine, then Chicago, and Minnesota, then Texas from that point on. I lived in Chicago at a place called Jesus people Ministry back in 92, they even kicked me out.
I was kicked out of High school and was told as I was walking out the door they said, If you ever come back we will call the police and have a restraing order put on you. This barly touchs what I did.
I am now 43 years old. I gave my life to Jesus at 21 after years of people sharing with me and me rejecting them. I finally read the Bible and did my own research. I also read the BoM and the D anc C and the pearl. Jesus saved me, Now I am going on 19 years of marraige this Agust, I have a degree from collage, and am a profesional chef. http://www.rickthechef.com
So w eeach have or horrible life and boastamony, big deal, this proves truth how? So Lily, I asked FoF a question that he simply refuses to answer, so maybe you can. If you read the BoM, then remove every verse that is qord for word from the Bible, and any verses that same the same things as the Bible, Like Israel will return to their land, since we have the Bible, we dont need these same Verses in the BoM, then with whats left, how does that teach me about Jesus, how does it teach me to be saved, and how does it get me closer to God?
Let me Add Bruce Mc feels the BoM clarifys the Bible.
In the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R. McConkie, under the title Book of Mormon.
bruce says the Purpose of the book of mormon is this.
1. To bear record of Christ, certifying in plainness and with clarity of his divine sonship and mission, proving irrefutably that he is the Redeemer and Saviour.
2. To teach the doctrines of the gospel in such a pure and perfect way that the plan of salvation will be clearly revealed; and
3. To stand as a witness to all the world that Joseph Smith was the Lord’s anointed through whom the foundation was laid for the great latter-day work of restoration. Almost all of the doctrines of the gospel are taught in the Book of Mormon with much greater clarity and perfection than those same doctrines are revealed in the Bible. Anyone who will place in parallel columns the teachings of these two great books on such subjects as the atonement, plan of salvation, gathering of Israel, baptism, gifts of the spirit, miracles, revelation, faith, Charity, ( or ANY of a HUNDRED OTHER SUBJECTS), will find conclusive proof of the superiority of the Book of Mormon teachings.
So since Bruce said it and feels this way, surly you guys who claim the BoM is so far above the Bible you must be able with ease to show me what I asked.
Lilypad,
One more thing, Me and My wife have been to Israel last year, and we will be going again in Nov. Have you ever been to any BoM lands? And if you say yes, dont say things like, I went to Mecixo and saw what is believed to be Lands found in the BoM.
Back it up with evidence. Do you have pottery or books or buildings that can prove it was BoM lands. Do you have thing found that has names written or something like that. If all you have is, I believe or others say it is. Bring the hard evidence. If you dont have any, then why not and how can that not bother you? Many LDS claim their is no archeological evidence since they say, the BoM has only been around for a few hundred years.
I reply with, the BOM Mentions the tower of Babel and mentions BoM people being in the city of Jeruslam before Jesus. So according to the BoM it is extermly old and their should be evidence, yet No LDS can seem to bring forth the hard archeological evidence. And please excuse the Typo’s in the last reply, it is late where I am and was trying to reply to you while trying to get my kids to bed.
FoF,
You said, “Check out Alma 30 in the Book of Mormon” as if the Book of Mormon has any credibility as what it claims to be. For Mormons the truthfulness of the book comes from their feelings about the book, as you agreed, “the greatest evidence of the book for me is its influence in my life.” The Bible stands on more than just the way it makes me tingle all over when I read it, it has been objectively demonstrated to be true through world history, palaeography, and archaeology, unlike the alleged claims of the BoM.
lilypad,
Just curious, have the LDS missionaries told you that God was once a man and together with many spirit wives he populated this world? He has a body of flesh and bone yet Jesus says God is Spirit and we must worship him in Spirit and truth. Have they told you that Jesus is not God but “a god” and he is your older, literal spirit brother and also the spirit brother of Satan, that makes Satan your spirit brother as well. This is blasphemy to a Christian. If you have read the Bible like you say you have, then you will know that Satan is not your spirit brother. To me, getting God and Jesus right is the most important thing. Think about this from Gordon B. Hinckley:
“In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ ” ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'” (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).”
Now compare that to Jesus warning:
Matthew 24:24
Mormonism teaches a different Christ. This is from a recent LDS prophet. I say do your homework. I was LDS for 40 years and I was absolutely shocked at the doctrines and things I didn’t know about my own church and it’s history. The church has backed itself into a corner with this stuff and Mormons are leaving in droves because of this according to an LDS apostle who recently did a talk on this subject.
lillypad,
Something is’nt adding up . I keep thinking that we here have been through this before with
someone who comes across as neutral wanting to know why we’re “bashing” another religion
and that it appears this ministry has’nt much good to offer . They’ve found the Mormon church
to be a place where they have felt good while all the other churches they’ve attended were
disappointing . They find Mormon doctrine “makes sense ” , while the doctrines of other
churches don’t etc. In short it seems like they are using this venue to advertise Mormonism
as true under the appearance of being just some neutral observer . I sense this about you. I
hope I’m wrong but with what you’ve said so far this is my thinking . I say all this because some
of us have seen this before here . ( Have you been on this blog before under a different name ? )
I do hope you are truly seeking to know more about Mormonism if you’re thinking of joining.
By the way , concerning what I said about Joseph Smith in my post above , perhaps you did’nt
understand what I meant . But just so you know that you will not be granted the fullest blessings
of eternal life unless you confess that Joseph Smith( and his successors ) is God’s mouthpiece
for these latter days . That’s Mormon doctrine . The prophets in the Bible reminded their
people that the Savior will come one day , He did , and He picked men (apostles) to teach the
saving truths about Him and His sacrafice for sins and His resurrection to offer us all eternal
life –Rom 1:16 . It’s in the N.T. for you and I and everyone to embrace . We simply do not need
any of the numerous prophets that are around today vying for our attention with their ” long
unavailable truths ” that are now supposedly necessary in order to receive eternal life.
In these latter days it’s not following another prophet . It’s worshiping Jesus . Rom 10:9-13
Heb 7:25 .
I’m praying for you and your family to know the truth .
Take care.
FOF said,
My advice is to read the Book of Mormon independent of other influences.
I say,
here is the problem with that.
Suppose I handed you a possibly counterfeit 100 dollar bill and I asked you to study it independent of other influences to see if it was genuine. Could you do that. Of course you couldn’t. You already have a vague idea what a genuine 100 dollar bill looks like and the whole trick of the counterfeit is to mimic the real thing as closely as possible. Any counterfeit will be roughly the same size shape and color and contain many of the same symbols as the real thing.
That is what the BOM does. It is written in KJE and so it will sound like a Bible to your ears and it has lots of direct quotes from the genuine word of God. It’s easy to see why some folks not overly familiar with the Word of God could be fooled by it. That is of course exactly how a counterfeit works
No the only way to judge if something is counterfeit or not is not to look at it “independent of other influences” but to meticulously compare it to the real thing. If you do that with the book of Mormon I am more than confident that you will find it to be a laughable fake
peace
@Lillypad
I’ve been reading your conversation and it’s good to hear from you on this blog-forum. I hope you don’t mind me jumping in here. I worry the thread is too long.
The first crucial difference b/w LDS and Biblical Christianity is the definition of the gospel. It should be the gospel that Jesus taught, clarified in detail by Paul: (Galatians 1:8,9; 1 Corinthians 15:1-3). Fifth Monarch Man talks somewhat about this previously in a preceding post.
Another crucial difference is how you’re saved in the LDS Faith. It’s after all you can do:
“For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” (2 Nephi 25:23)
LDS Faith details that grace needs faith plus works.
As far as Biblical Christianity is concerned, the following is true:
1. “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9, ESV)
2. “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.” (Romans 11:6, ESV)
Christian salvation is purely faith in Christ’s work without any works/human effort. Faith believes in the gift of grace only, no works, because works opposes grace. A Christian with saving faith will produce works as time goes on, but that isn’t what saves him or her, it’s the result of faith(not a result of works).
Biblical Christianity details that grace is opposed to works.
Hope this helps.
@faithoffathers
“I discovered the Book of Mormon when I was 18. I was an addicted criminal with no self-control and no future. I had failed in High School and could not have cared less. I found a copy of the Book of Mormon and decided to read it for one hour every day as an experiment. I read it 8 times in 6 months. It changed everything about my life.”
First of all, Faithoffathers, I’ll be happy with you that the BoM has helped you in your life. No one can counter your personal experience.
However, the second aspect is that there are Catholics, Buddhists, Protestants, Hindus who through reading of sacred texts have found a way to overcome life’s issues. This doesn’t negate the overcoming necessarily, unless of course the gospel is different than what the Jesus through the early church taught. Whether or not the Book of Mormon affected you is not the question. It seems it has positively helped you.
The question is whether the Book of Mormon contains the fulness and truth of the gospel. As to whether it contains the true gospel of Jesus Christ through the ages – if BoM doesn’t, then it may have been helpful in your life, however it would lead you down the path to reaping from a false gospel. And Paul talks about the result of that being damnation (Gal. 1:5-9, ESV).
Thanks faithoffathers.
WOW! So many responses. I don’t know where to start at all.
MistakenTestimony, I have nothing invested in the Mormon faith. If you didnt see anything wrong with the mormonthink article in comparison the sourced information in the article i sent, then I think that might say more about you than mormons. I don’t dislike mormons or mormonism, and neither have I joined at this time. I feel pretty fairly unbiased and I can read both of those articles and quickly discern what mormonthink is trying to do in that article. Fair’s explanation is simple and sourced well. I see abosutely zero wrong about the Nephi or Moroni thing after reading that article.
But Rick, you didnt read the article i sent. If the Times and Season printed the wrong name, then that doesnt mean Joseph said it. All i can say is to read the article I sent. It even shows where this error came from and how the mistake was reprinted multiple times. The article shows the many many times that Joseph stated it was moroni long before the misprints, and how the error was corrected several times while joseph was still alive. You can go read it if you really are interested. All you did was requote the mistprints that all came from the same source and error. Its also in Smith’s mom’s memoir because it was inserted there from the Times and Seasons article. Just because a mistake keeps getting reprinted doesnt make it multiple instances of someone saying something. Clear logical thinkers I believe understand that. There has to be better things you can focus on than a misprint for why you apparently dislike the LDS faith so much. The article i sent pretty easily laid the issue to rest. I showed both articles to my other friend getting baptized soon, and she also wondered what the issue was. The article is pretty easy to understand. Give it a read.
FaithofFathers, I am guessing you are a member of the LDS faith? I think that is safe to assume by what you said about the Book of Mormon. I can relate to your story. There have been many wonderful changes in my family since we have had the missionaries come and have been reading. I have been reading a lot from it, and I see nothing in it but good. The story is very interesting, and it is very faith promoting. I admit, that coming to full faith in it’s truth is the only thing holding me back, but just based on its good teachings and the affect that this church has had in our lives, I can say that I have seen a good power and influence, and for people here to claim satan is behind that is pretty silly sounding.
It sounds to me like some other people in other churches want a monopoly on following Christ. The LDS faith to me seems to be the one closest to helping me and my family do that. It is strange to hear so many people here make the same comment that mormonism will lead you to hell, when all it does is teach to love others, serve them, and follow Christ’s example. How is that going to lead me to hell. Do the posters here really think that? This sounds like a big reason for why most of the people who I call friends do not like any church.
RikkiJ, I love the bible. It is incredible. Thank you for sharing those ideas with me. What about James 2:14-26. James 2:17 is as clear as can be stated. It sounds like cherry picking to say that our works don’t count. Didn’t Jesus directly give commandments and turn away some people because they didn’t do what he said? Faith, to me, is not some vague belief, but can be measured by one’s commitment to that thing they claim to have faith in. Works measures our faith. That’s what i see James saying. Without a doubt thought the statements SEEM to be slightly contradictory. So how do you throw one out?? I think the mormon point of view makes more sense with both statements. It is something I thought about before ever attending an LDS chapel. It never made sense to me that works are not a part of faith or salvation, and James agrees. I dont think Paul is even disagreeing.
What I have been told by the bishop there at the church I have been going to is that yes, ALL, men will be saved (despite what one poster said above). The LDS church believes all will receive grace for salvation, for every knee will bow. So his grace includes all men. However, we are judged by our works/faith, and the degree of that salvation will not be the same for all men. That makes sense to me with Jesus asking people to DO things and Follow him, not just say it. How does that not make sense to some people? That’s not even completely different from what i was taught in different christian churches. It sounds a lot like it. So a baptist that does not follow Christ but says he believes in Him will be saved, while a mormon that says and follows Christ by serving others will be damned to hell? I am sorry, but that sounds like nonsense and not biblical at all. I dont know if the mormon church is true or not, but I definitely know there is nothing in the bible that damns anyone for trying TOO hard.
Kate, do you believe those that are still in the church that you know, the good people there are going to hell? I didn’t undertsand what you thought was so bad about what was in your post. It sounds like Hinckley was saying that they dont believe in a traditional christ, as in, the mormons believe he has a body and still talks to man. Not that they worship a different being. I actually brought up your questions to the missionaries about spirit brothers and sisters. I didnt entirely think it was strange to see all beings as children of God and created by God as spirits. If God created all things, and our spirits, wouldnt that make us, all of us, even hitler, our spirit brothers and sisters? I believe there are a few biblical passages about being children of God. I found this too
“As the Apostle Paul wrote, God is the Father of all. That means that all beings were created by God and are His spirit children. Christ, however, was the only begotten in the flesh, and we worship Him as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind.”
I really like that statement. What I am finding here is a lot of statements where people here try to make mormonism sound really fishy and far fetched, when in reality, I am finding the opposite. Some of the arguments here have caused me to go look elsewhere for some answers and like the quote above, I dont really understand the issues other churches have.
Mike R, I am not even sure I follow you completely. Are you saying that I posted on here before?
I go back to my original question. Why will a good mormon who believes in God and Christ, and tries to have faith and exercise that faith condenmed to hell by Jesus. I can’t find any biblical teachings that say, you cannot believe Christ has a body (which he had when he ressurected and went back up with). Or that you have to believe x y and z about me or else all your obedience and discipleship is lost. I know mormons assume they are right, but they dont believe anyone else will be condemned for following Christ the best they can. However, their seem to be a lot of people who want to say, you have to believe just this – and its not supported by the bible – and just that to be saved. This is probably the first time I am really realizing all this.
Lillipad,
“I go back to my original question. Why will a good mormon who believes in God and Christ, and tries to have faith and exercise that faith condenmed to hell by Jesus. I can’t find any biblical teachings that say, you cannot believe Christ has a body (which he had when he ressurected and went back up with). Or that you have to believe x y and z about me or else all your obedience and discipleship is lost. I know mormons assume they are right, but they dont believe anyone else will be condemned for following Christ the best they can. However, their seem to be a lot of people who want to say, you have to believe just this – and its not supported by the bible – and just that to be saved. This is probably the first time I am really realizing all this.”
I think there are some Mormons that will be saved. It think there are Mormons that are Christian. But Mormonism is not Christian. It’s unique teachings distract from God’s salvation and can in no way save you. If you think “they dont believe anyone else will be condemned for following Christ the best they can,” you are mistaken. I have left the Mormon Church and it is doctrine that I will not be able to have life with God. It is believed that unless someone participates in LDS Ordinances, they have no life with God. This is not Biblical. These unique LDS ordiances that make or break your connection with God can be found no where in scripture or Christian history. Gnosticism influenced Masonry, Masonry influenced Joseph Smith. And LDS very much condemn those you don’t embrace their version of Gnostic Masonry. Mormonism is not Christian, it just uses Christianity to attract members and give itself some credibility. Without attaching itself to the Bible, it’s about as believable as Scientology.
Lillipad,
“just based on its good teachings and the affect that this church has had in our lives, I can say that I have seen a good power and influence…
It sounds to me like some other people in other churches want a monopoly on following Christ. The LDS faith to me seems to be the one closest to helping me and my family do that.”
Please explain what the LDS Church has that traditional Christianity does not have in terms of goodness, values, and bringing families closer to Christ.
Also, just because something is faith promoting does not mean it is true. I love the youth story “Letter’s to Lydia.” It is very faith promoting to me. It inspires me. It’s fiction.
Before anyone jumps on me to say ‘I thought you were leaving’ I’m in here to speak to LilyPad. My initial reason for coming to this site a few months ago was to help, if I could, anyone who was at the crossroads of either joining the LDS or leaving it. I resisted saying anything after reading LilyPads story yesterday as I had already said that I would not be posting again but I feel that the Lord is urging me to speak
So LilyPad, why are you here? Are you concerned about your salvation, do you want to know the truth or do you simply want a good social life? I ask that because my ex-wife a member of the LDS corporation for close to 50 years (a lot of those years inactive) & still a good friend recently told me, & this relates directly to what FoF has said concerning the BofM, “I have read the BofM Mormon so many times & am finding it increasingly difficult to believe any of it apart from the parts that are scriptural” (copied directly from the Bible) She told me that she was a ‘social Mormon’ & the only friends she has apart from me are LDS members.
It’s so simple, my ex wants to be a Christian, but she can’t find Christianity in Mormonism she’s a member simply because that’s all she knows.
Would you like another fact that cannot be denied? Modern Mormonism cannot be found within the pages of the Bible or in the BofM. That is an absolute, it’s an undeniable fact & it’s the TRUTH. Another fact for you to mull over, you DO NOT need Mormonism but if you are interested in the truth then you DO need Christ.
I belong to no Church organization, I’m not a Baptist, Methodist or any other of the numerous Christian denominations but I do belong to the one true Church that was established by Christ 2000 years ago. That is not to say, as Joe Smith claimed, that any of those denominations are wrong, it’s simply the way my life has panned out.
Let’s take a look at missionaries now, you say you are taking lessons or whatever you choose to call it from Mormon Missionaries, Why are they called Mormon missionaries, why not just Missionaries? Do Christian missionaries call themselves Baptists or Methodist Missionaries, of course they don’t & why not? Simply because Christian Missionaries belong to ‘the one true Church’ & have been called by God to preach the Gospel of Christ. Mormon Missionaries on the other hand belong to the LDS & are not called to be missionaries in the Christian sense of the word, they are ‘expected’ to go on a mission to preach the message of Mormonism. Most Mormon missionaries, even though they are called Elders are little more than children & most know very little of the reality or history of Mormonism. Incidentally for a Church that claims it follows the practices of the early Church it seems very strange that an Elder should be a 19 year old teenager, compare that with the Scriptural definition of an Elder found in Timothy 3:1-7 & Titus 1:6-9
Here’s a couple of questions for you, If Christ is who He claims to be, then obviously God, in the person of Christ, failed to establish His Church. The LDS like to claim that a total apostasy occurred which led to Him (God) having to appoint Joe Smith to restore what was lost. So, let’s apply a little logic to that claim. Does it seem likely to you that Christ, who is God incarnate, would fail in anything He set out to do? The LDS have no choice but to claim that God failed otherwise there would be no reason for a so-called restoration. Sure they call it an apostasy but no matter what words they use it still means that God failed to establish His Church. Would God, the creator of Heaven & Earth, call a mere man, a convicted con man no less, to do what He Himself could not do? And what about all the millions of believers who lived suffered & died for their faith for nearly 2000 years before God thought He would give it another go? Even if you choose to believe that the Mormon church has the truth that only shows that God has failed yet again for after 200 years this so called church still has less than 10 million active members, compare that to God’s ‘failed’ Church which has around 2 billion members.
I strongly urge you to listen to the Christians in here, ignore the advice given by FoF
How can you know the truth if you only listen to one side of an argument? Keep in mind what I told you above, my ex has read the BofM through & through & is becoming convinced that it is false. The only truth in it is what Smith plagiarized from the Bible.
I’ll ask you a couple more questions; what would the Christians in here stand to gain if you became a Christian & what would they lose if you became a Mormon? The answers are obvious; in both scenarios the answer would be the same, nothing.
Now put the same two questions to the Mormon Corporation, what would they gain if you became a Mormon & what would they lose if you became a Christian? Again the answers are obvious; in both scenarios the answer is the same, a lot. Becoming a Mormon means you give the Corporation control over every aspect of your life, the kind of control that only God should have, you give them control over what you eat & drink, what you wear & what you can read. You give them control over your family & your finances. They, the worlds wealthiest per capita church, which incidentally gives less per head to charity than any other church, will take 10% of everything you will ever earn & on top of that you will still be expected to give fast offerings & numerous other ‘offerings’ in short, they will keep you in poverty unless you are a very high wage earner, money is at the very top of their priorities list. If you don’t believe me ask any ex-Mormon or do your own research, in both cases the answer will be the same. Conversely if you become a Christian they will lose all of that control over your life & your money will be your own to give to the Church or to charity as you can afford.
Now tell me which of those two groups has the motive to lie & distort the truth? Hint, it isn’t Christians.
Do you want to follow the Mormon god, one god among millions, the god who was once a man? Do you want to follow false prophets? Men who have consistently lied to the members since the LDS was founded (a fact that is easily proven) or, would you rather follow the ONLY God, the God of the Bible?
Please don’t look any deeper than that, the Gospel message is so simple to those who put their faith in God rather than men. All the truth you will ever need is right there in the Bible & all you are asked to do is believe. John 3:16 Everything else follows from that simple acknowledgement of the FINISHED work of Christ
You said
“The LDS faith to me seems to be the one closest to helping me and my family do that. It is strange to hear so many people here make the same comment that mormonism will lead you to hell, when all it does is teach to love others, serve them, and follow Christ’s example.”
That is NOT all that Mormonism teaches, it teaches far more than that, have you not heard the Mormon expression, ‘milk before meat’ So far you have been given the ‘milk’ but one day, after you have committed yourself, you will learn of the ‘meat’ the meat of celestial polygamy, the meat of God once being a Man, the meat of Christ being, along with Satan, your elder brother. Your missionaries have told you about us all being created as Gods spirit children, that’s an example of the milk, do you know what the meat is concerning that? I’ll tell you what the meat is. God had physical sex with who knows how many wives to produce those children. How was Christ conceived, that’s easy, when you know the meat, God had physical sex with Mary, in other words the Mormon god committed incest with his own daughter. It’s easy to find these things if you’re prepared to look deeper than the LDS would like.
You made the point of things in the Mormon church making sense & that should serve as warning to you, if things make sense before conversion then those same things come from the carnal mind of man, Gods word does not make sense until the coming of the Holy Spirit, read the scriptures if you can’t take my word for it, Christ made it clear to His disciples that understanding would not come until they had received the Holy Spirit.
I don’t have time to go into the other points you raised, I wish I did but I’m sure they will be addressed by the people concerned. Needless to say, all of those points are commonly raised by Mormons & are based, not on what scripture teaches but upon something called confirmation bias, i.e. a person starts with a preconceived belief & then looks for a verse or verses in scripture to support that belief. That is not & never will be a route to the truth.
lillypad,
The most important thing is to know who God is. Period. Why did Jesus warn us that many false Christs would arise? Why are we warned about “other gospels?” Just because Joseph Smith made up a character who is so far out there according to what the Bible says about the nature of God, and called him Jesus Christ, that doesn’t mean it’s the Jesus of the Bible. Clearly Gordon Hinckley taught that they are not the same Christ. That should be a huge red flag for you. The Christian God of the Bible is the Holy Trinity, Jesus is God incarnate, the Word made flesh who dwelt among us. The Mormon Jesus is nothing but your spirit brother and the spirit brother of Satan who has power to Save you ONLY after all you can do. Please show me in the Bible where this is taught? Yes we become children of God when we accept Jesus as our Savior. You have to have the correct Jesus.
“Kate, do you believe those that are still in the church that you know, the good people there are going to hell?’
I don’t pretend to know what God is going to do with everyone. It’s not my job to assume. I do know that my friends and family are deceived by a false religion with a false god and a false Christ and sadly they are spiritually dead.
“I actually brought up your questions to the missionaries about spirit brothers and sisters. I didnt entirely think it was strange to see all beings as children of God and created by God as spirits. If God created all things, and our spirits, wouldnt that make us, all of us, even hitler, our spirit brothers and sisters? I believe there are a few biblical passages about being children of God.”
Really? Did the missionaries tell you how the Mormon god “creates” these spirit beings? Through sex with one of his millions of spirit wives?? The Bible does say “for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.” and “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to BECOME the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:” Please study and ponder the difference.
Galatians 3:26
John 1:12
NOWHERE does the Bible describe that we are LITERAL spirit children of God through some kind of procreation with God and a spirit wife. Welcome to Mormonism, Christian sounding words with meanings completely changed to meet the Mormon agenda and Christian Bible verses cherry picked and twisted to meet the Mormon agenda.
“As the Apostle Paul wrote, God is the Father of all. That means that all beings were created by God and are His spirit children. Christ, however, was the only begotten in the flesh, and we worship Him as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind.”
This was taken right off the FAIR website. Thanks but no thanks. Please provide the Biblical passage where the Apostle Paul wrote this. Are you referring to Romans 4:13-17 ?? If so isn’t that talking about Abraham being the Father of us all? I’m a little confused here. please clarify.
I have to say that I agree with Mike. I think you are playing a game here. You seem to know a lot more about Mormonism than a new investigator would. How convenient that the missionaries were available so soon to ask about my post.
Well everyone, I greatly appreciate the input. Kate, you sound really angry towards the church. Kind of how i feel about the Baptist church in some ways, but I have gotten over that I think. I do appreciate your input though, even if my experience so far is different and even if I don’t see eye to eye with you.
Here, 1 Corinthians 8:6. I am not sure why that reference made you so angry.
I admitted in my opening post that this is not my first run in with mormons, and I am not new to it. I said was new to considering joining it. And I have been researching it for nearly a year now. Your final words are insulting and perhaps i did not clarify my earlier words about the missionaries. You brought up an issue that I shared many months ago with the missionaries. I did not ask them today. Your question was one I asked quite some time back. I can’t pretend to know what made you so angry at the LDS church or why you are angry at me here, but I wish the best to you and I apologize for offending.
Old man, I don’t really agree with anything you posted. Look, i am not invested in the LDS religion as a follower yet. I am not sure why there is such anger from a few people here. I have gone to many LDS sites and people to learn more about it, since they are the people that follow it, and I have gone to others like yourselves to see other points of view. Some people are kind like some people here, but there are always these people who are immediately angry. I didn’t do anything to you. I am just thinking of joining a church and getting your input. If I have been defensive too, then I apologize. I felt attacked from a few posters immediately.
I feel that i have gotten really good input from some of you. I appreciate the time you put in and for the ones that care here and aren’t just trying to get in their two cents towards another religion, I appreciate it greatly.
I won’t return here. It is NOT my intent to stir up bad feelings here. Again, thanks to everyone. I hope the best to all of you.
Lillypad,
You said, “It is strange to hear so many people here make the same comment that mormonism will lead you to hell, when all it does is teach to love others, serve them, and follow Christ’s example.” All religions teach their members to love and serve others. So what? Works don’t save anybody. It’s faith in the Christ who saves. Mormonism teaches a differen Christ and a different “gospel” than the Bible. There is no salvation in any religion that teaches love and servitude. There is no salvation in any “church” that teaches a different Jesus. If you believe Mormonism and believe that orthodox Christians follow a heretical Jesus then you should take your own advice and “want a monopoly on following Christ”, but if you don’t care whether or not someone teaches a true or false Jesus then clearly your religion is not important to you at all. Then you said, ” This sounds like a big reason for why most of the people who I call friends do not like any church.” The true Gospel is a hard thing and offensive to the world. It does not matter if anybody stumbles or rejects the true Gospel, am I trying to please men or God? And you say that you are not invested in Mormonism and are unbiased and neutral, but your tone and choice of words certainly show otherwise.
Lilly,
“It sounds to me like some other people in other churches want a monopoly on following Christ. ”
It is not our monopoly to claim. It is not based on our desire to shut people out. Our goal is to protect Jesus Christ from being distorted and people led astray. This is why I expressed in my original post to you to examine, and examine closely, how the groups define Jesus. Really look into what they say about Jesus, and what the Bible says about him.
If it were simply about following Jesus, I could create a great spaghetti monster, name him Jesus Christ, follow him, and claim to be a Christian, too.
Don’t just assume that the Jesus of the LDS is the same as our Jesus. Check it out.
Lily,
I never said I am angry at Mormons or dont believe in Mormonism because of the name of the angel being Nephi or Moroni.
Now you said, According to LDS all are saved, well have you ever asked them why they teach outer darkness? Who goes there and why? And how some will never leave?
I doubt you have.
Now you claim we are all Gods children, Have you read the Bible? I know you will claim you have, But why did Jesus say, some people are children of the Devil and claim the devil is their father?
Why does Jesus say, He will say to some, I never knew you, depart from me into everlasting punishment if all will be saved?
Why are we warned over and over about avoiding hell and the issue of eternal fire and damnation?
Seems you either ignore these things, dont care, or did not know.
A final follow up for LilyPad
“Old man, I don’t really agree with anything you posted. Look, i am not invested in the LDS religion as a follower yet. I am not sure why there is such anger from a few people here. I have gone to many LDS sites and people to learn more about it, since they are the people that follow it, and I have gone to others like yourselves to see other points of view. Some people are kind like some people here, but there are always these people who are immediately angry. I didn’t do anything to you. I am just thinking of joining a church and getting your input.”
Where do you see anger in anything I said? What I said was given in Christian love because I cared & because it was the truth. You said “I didn’t do anything to you” so please tell me what did I do to you apart from telling you a number of truths about the Mormon church? Truths that only a committed Mormon could dismiss in such a summary fashion, you hardly had time to read it never mind think about it before you replied. One small example will suffice the definition of ‘Elder’ are you telling me that the Bible is wrong? A genuine seeker after truth might have questioned my comments but they would never have thrown them out as you did. Most Mormons of my experience throw that tired old cliché, ‘there is so much anger’ into the ring & you are no different
Mike was correct in his suspicions as was Kate & I realise now why I felt compelled to write to you. It was to expose you & expose you it did, but want to know something LilyPad? Without realising it you managed to show that in some aspects at least Christians hold the moral high ground. We don’t practice deception we don’t lie & we don’t go on to Mormon sites pretending to be something we aren’t. So thank you for that.
Thanks everyone & now I really do have to make that my last posting.
Old man, I wish you well. You have my email so please keep in touch. I am praying for you and I enjoyed having you here. Rick