Viewpoint on Mormonism Archives
Blogroll
- 365 Reasons
- Apologetics 315
- Ensign vs. The Bible
- Heart Issues for LDS
- Heart of the Matter
- I Love Mormons
- Keith Walker
- Latter-day Saint Woman
- Mark Cares
- Mormonism Investigated UK
- Mormonite Musings
- Mormons are Christians… aren't we?
- Musings on Mormonism
- Of First Importance
- Share the Son Ministries
- The Mormon Chapbook
- The Religious Researcher
- Utah Advance
Links
Subscribe
Join the Discussion
Check out our comment policy.Categories
Afterlife Authority and Doctrine Baptism for the Dead Bible Book of Mormon Brigham Young Christianity Coffee Beans D&C and Pearl of Great Price Early Christianity Early Mormonism Forgiveness Friendship, Interaction, and Evangelism General Conference God the Father Gospel Grace Great Apostasy Jesus Christ Joseph Smith King Follett Discourse LDS Church Marriage and Singlehood Misconceptions Mitt Romney Mormon Culture Mormon History Mormon Leaders Mormon Missionaries Mormon Scripture Mormon Temple Multimedia Nature of God Nature of Man Nauvoo Personal Stories Polygamy Priesthood Prophets Salvation Truth, Honesty, Prayer, and Inquiry Uncategorized Viewpoint on Mormonism Virgin birth Worthiness
113 Responses to Evangelism to Mormons
Leave a Reply
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Amazing,
Would it be possible, I think that Aaron would benefit from a week or two being spent at the Missionary Training Center in Provo and learn how effective evangelizing is conducted. Being strident, argumentative, dismissive, and confrontational is not an effective way of winning converts. Mormons know what works in evangelizing – they have been at it for 183 years with over 58,000 full time missionaries world wide..
So successful are Mormons in evangelizing that they gained 272,330 converts last year (April 2013 Conference report). That is no small feat. That 272,300 converts combined with the growth in membership through increase in children of record (122,273) and less deaths, defection, and a few apostates (about 60,000 per year according to the Salt Lake tribune) means that the LDS Church is growing by about 1 million new members every three years (that is 272,330 plus 122,273 less ~60,000 equals about 334,000 new members. Thus net-net the LDS Church is growing by about 334,000 new members every year.
Not bad for a Church that is supposedly bleeding members by the droves.
What is successful for the short term is lying, obfuscating, refusing to answer questions, pressuring to baptize, and sending out teenagers who look innocent to dupe those not familiar with actual Mormon doctrine.
But this will not stand the test of time.
Grindael,
Like I said in my last post I made. When I was converted in my freshman year of college by the missionaries they made it sound like the basic beliefs about God and Jesus Christ were the same as Mainstream Christianity but that the LDS church had more truth than the other Christian churches because it had been restored. As I learned more about the church over time and mostly these last 6 months I have seen how different the doctrine is from other Christian doctrine and how much has not been restored by the church but rather invented.
Alex
-you wrote, “Being strident, argumentative, dismissive, and confrontational is not an effective way of winning converts.”
You have displayed this same approach in your interactions with people on this site. It seems out of place for a holder of the Holy Priesthood, and one who has received greater revelation and light, to give advice to others when you fail to demonstrate the attributes that mark a true believer of the restored Gospel. I don’t recognize the characteristics mentioned in D&C 121: 34-46 in any of your posts, specifically a, “showing forth…an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved…”
Can you explain this discrepancy?
PR,
That’s what I’d call a “good catch”. Our friend Alex is not exhibiting the attributes that he says successful LDS salespeople use.
Alex gave us the numbers of converts and I’m wondering how many that works out per missionary. Not that it’s any big deal but he seems to be bragging about what an awesome job the LDS church is doing getting people into the baptismal fount. Are those solid conversions? Any idea what the attrition rate is among those who are convinced to take the plunge?
“The most positive development in 2011 was “a surge in the number of members serving full-time missions – to 55,410, an increase of 3,185 from 2010; a 6.1 percent annual increase,” according to Matt Martinich, who carefully reports and analyzes LDS Church growth.”
“Another positive indication is the increase in the number of LDS stakes in 2011, to 2,946 (an increase of 50 from 2010), Martinich writes. “That was greater than any year for the church since 1998.”
“The bad news for Mormons, however, is the number of additional congregations was a mere 124. Not since 2003 have there been so few. Indeed, the percentage growth in membership was five times greater than that for wards and branches.”
“Baptizing members faster than creating new congregations spells trouble for the LDS Church, he writes. It means the faith has an ongoing problem with retaining converts.”
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/53841328-180/church-increase-lds-faith.html.csp
“First, regarding retention rates… As noted above, the LDS Church does not release this information. But there are ways to estimate this and several researchers have done so, giving us our current best estimates. For instance, Rick Phillips (2006), using census data for a variety of countries, compared the membership information supplied by the LDS Church in its annual almanac to the self-reported membership identifications of people in those countries and found that the LDS Church over-estimated its membership. The actual number of Mormons in those countries ranged from 20% to 70% of what the LDS Church claimed. The major implication of this finding is that retention rates of Mormon converts are fairly low.”
“In sum, best estimates of retention rates for converts to Mormonism would probably put the number somewhere between 20% and 50%, depending on the country.”
http://www.mormonsocialscience.org/2008/10/09/q-retention-rates-and-future-missionaries/
Alex,
“Not bad for a Church that is supposedly bleeding members by the droves.”
Hey, your leader was asked this specifically and he confirmed it was true and not only was he aware of it but so is the first presidency and they really do care.
“Mormons know what works in evangelizing – they have been at it for 183 years with over 58,000 full time missionaries world wide..”
You said it! Tell me why your missionaries stood on my doorstep the other day and told me Mormonism is the exact same thing as Christianity. Lies. This is how Mormon missionaries gain converts. They outright lie and they lie by omission. If they would lay out the whole Mormon system they would be laughed off the porch. So yes, the LDS church knows exactly how to dupe people into joining. Now the next question is, how many of those converts are retained after the first few months?
“Sociologist Armand Mauss stated that “75 percent of foreign [LDS] converts are not attending church within a year of conversion. In the United States, 50 percent of the converts fail to attend after a year.”[7] This postbaptismal attrition is heavily front-loaded. Elder Dallin H. Oaks noted that “among those converts who fall away, attrition is sharpest in the two months after baptism,”[8] and missionaries report being told in the MTC that up to 80 percent of inactivity occurs within two months of baptism. In some parts of Latin America, 30 to 40 percent of new converts do not even return to church after baptism to be confirmed. In contrast, Adventist News Network reported in 2001 that worldwide Seventh-day Adventist member retention rates had fallen from 81 percent in previous years to a still very impressive 78 percent at present. ”
This article has some interesting numbers about convert retention rates. It’s really easy for the LDS church to lie their way into gaining converts, to push them to be baptized immediately before they have a chance to look up anything, but keeping those converts once they start learning the truth is another story entirely. What about those missionaries after they return home? Well half of them go inactive or resign.
http://www.cumorah.com/index.php?target=law_harvest&chapter_id=7
As for the number of LDS missionaries out in the field, have you ever looked at how many Christian missionaries there are out there?
“In the Christian world, there are 306,000 foreign missionaries to other Christian lands. Also, 4.19 million full-time Christian workers (95%) work within the Christian world.”
(Frontier Harvest Ministries)
Kind of makes your 58,000 look a little puny huh? This numbers game that you LDS love to play is just plain ridiculous. You’re religion can’t compete with any part of Christianity. Even the Seventh Day Adventists have more impressive numbers than the LDS.
Alex,
Me and Falcon have been asking for years, If Mormons claim we are wrong and dont know what were talking about, then can Mormon please tell us what were missing and answer our questions. You have been told this already by me, have you helped us out and answered our questions? No, do you care? I doubt it. Thats why I say what I do.
Alex seemed to be bragging what good salesmen LDS missionaries are so I found this article interesting:
“Six days a week, in fair weather and foul, two-dozen door-to-door salesmen, all of whom live clustered together in an apartment complex in this suburb west of Chicago, pile into S.U.V.’s and cars and head into the big city, bent on sales of home security systems.
And on Sunday, their one day off, they drive together to the nearest house of worship of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
“The salesmen are mostly former Mormon missionaries from Utah who cut their teeth — and learned their people-skill chops — cold-calling for their faith. In Chicago and in its suburbs where their employer, Pinnacle Security of Orem, Utah, has shipped them for the summer sales season, they are doing much the same thing, but as a job.”
“It’s missionary work turned into a business,” said Cameron Treu, 30, who served his mission in Chile and was recruited into D2D (that is door-to-door in sales lingo) by another former missionary.
“Sometimes, though, it rains, and when it does, Pinnacle’s sink-or-swim mentality for sales reps, especially new, unproven ones like Brandon Rogers, is tough love at its toughest.”
“Newbies, for fear they may retreat to their cars, are dropped off and left on foot without shelter or access to a bathroom unless they can gain admittance into a house to make their sales pitch. Mr. Rogers, who is 21, had three energy bars and no umbrella to last him through a long, wet day.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/12/us/12coldcalls.html?_r=0
Alex feels that Aaron would benefit from a trip to the Mormon Missionary training Center in
Provo so that he can learn how effective evangelizing is done .
Aaron would be wasting his time . He already is well familiar with the sales techniques used by
Mormon Missionaries to proselytize , and he is well aware of how these sincere young people
have been taught to package the imitation gospel which their leaders have created and present
it to people as the same gospel as Jesus’ apostles had taught —and that is no small feat .
Alex, I’m not really interested in a nasty back-and-forth with you. But if you’re ever in SLC and are willing, I’d be glad to buy you lunch and chat.
PS I would LOVE to spend a few weeks at the MTC! 🙂
Aaron,
Thank you for the invitation, however I live in Calgary, Alberta.
Grindael,
The Curch of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been here for 183 years and is still growing strong. I would say that the LDS Church has withstood the test of time very well indeed.
Kate,
You mention that: “there are 306,000 foreign missionaries to other Christian lands.” You also state: “Kind of makes your 58,000 look a little puny huh?”
I would respond that by simply noting that there are over 2 billion people calling themselves Christian therefore only 0.015% are currently serving as missionaries. In contrast there are about 15 million Mormons with about 0.4% currently serving as missionaries. In other words on a per capita basis there are 56 times more Mormon missionaries than so-called Christian missionaries. – Kind of makes your missionary force look a little punny, huh?
In the LDS Church every worthy young man is called to serve a 2 year mission and young women are encourage to serve as well. Most LDS missionaries pay their own way. Guess which Church is actually fulfilling the Great Commission from Jesus Christ to go out and preach the Gospel?
Rick,
Ask me a sincere and succinct question and I will endeavour to answer it.
Falcon,
Looking at LDS Church membership statistics for a particular year is not very revealing. Instead I would suggest examing the growth of the LDS Church over a longer time period. For instance, for the 65 year period since the end of World War II the LDS membership has doubled roughly every 20 years. This long-term trend is continuing.
Alex,
There’s another trend that’s continuing and that is of members leaving the LDS church. You don’t think that this is an issue when the leadership of the LDS church does. Anyway, you seem really impressed with the ability of LDS missionaries to sell the LDS product. Here’s the problem. They don’t really sell Mormonism as it is but what they sell is a very sanitized version. That’s why there’s anger when people find out the truth. In sales this is known as “bait and switch”. That is a person is sold one thing and then delivered something totally different.
Here’s a very short video/audio of a Mormon leader teaching the Missionaries how to answer a question. It takes a few seconds for it to kick in so the listen has to wait a bit.
Notice that the speaker is saying that the question is “antagonistic” and that the questioner is “walking up to me out of the blue”. That’s a set-up right there to justify being dishonest since the question is said to be “antagonistic” and the questioner is in characterized as being in some sort of attack mode.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKedIQLo5uQ
What are the MM selling? They are selling Joseph Smith and a religious system. When prospects get the truth about Joseph Smith and the LDS church, they aren’t going to buy the product.
Alex you’re in deep denial if you think all is well within the LDS kingdom. People don’t like being lied to and taken advantage of. You can justify the tactics used by the MM all you want but it’s dishonest and reflects exactly what Mormonism has been from the beginning.
Alex,
What’s it like living in a parallel universe? In this LDS fantasy land you’ve created MM have this incredibly dynamic presentation that are causing people to join the LDS church in unprecedented numbers. Retention of new members is not a problem. No one is leaving the fold and activity levels are sky high.
And then you come here and the majority of the people posting have left the LDS church. But I’m sure you have a ready explanation so that your creative narrative can just keep rolling along.
I don’t know if you saw my post from yesterday but I prayed fervently for you in church. I asked God to break your heart and tonight I’ll pray that he lift the cloud that’s keeping you in darkness and that you be given understanding into what is waiting for those who come to an understanding of who the Lord Jesus is. Cattyjane has testified to this having recently left the LDS church. I am confident that you will experience this also. I will continue to pray earnestly for you.
Hey Alex
you said said,
Being strident, argumentative, dismissive, and confrontational is not an effective way of winning converts.
I say,
I agree,
Could you be specific? What exactly in the presentation aside from the claim of “bleeding members”did you find to be objectionable? I’m genuinely interested in what you think.
Keep in mind that we truly believe that the LDS church is a false Christianity lead by false prophets that leads it’s followers to a horrible hell and that we have been commanded to preach the gospel to you.
How do you suggest we go about conveying this all important message in a loving but effective and honest way to Mormons like yourself?
peace
There’s an old saying in sales that goes like this:
“If you want to sell John Jones what John Jones buys, then you have to sell John Jones through John Jones’ eyes.”
So the effective sales person “profiles” his prospect. This can be done several ways and one is to have a few “diagnostic” questions. These questions will point the sales person to what is important to the prospect and then the sales presentation can be tailored to that person’s needs or concerns.
For example, MM could pursue the obituaries and get the names of the family members of the diseased. They could then cold call those people and speak to them out of their current state of grief.
“Increasingly, missionaries are not finding success by approach strangers on the streets or by going door to door. People are now more likely to pause to learn more about the church on Facebook, Holland said.”
“In “the new digital age,” members and missionaries must work more closely together, he said. “The very nature of missionary work must change.”
“Missionaries will use the internet at church buildings and members’ homes to blog and use social media. The program will be rolled out globally over the next year. Missionaries will make appointments online, teach online, and use digital media messages provided by the church.”
http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/mormon-missionaries-to-use-blogs-facebook-text-messaging/article_030186df-6058-5a9d-b261-c49a29abe43d.html
“Door-to-door work has not been effective for many years, said Matt Martinich, a member of the LDS church who analyzes membership and missionary numbers with the nonprofit Cumorah Foundation. Missionaries have far greater success spending time with people who are referred by church members or who are family members of current Mormons, he said.”
http://www.ajc.com/ap/ap/religion/mormons-to-use-technology-in-missionary-work/nYTbQ/
Wait a minute. Door-to-door has not been effective? According to Alex, the LDS church has this unbelievably awesome presentation and people are beating down the doors of the ward houses to get in and join up.
This is good: “Ten Lies I told as a MM”.
http://www.mrm.org/ten-lies
Alex,
I dont know if you actually read what I write or not because I dont know as much as these other guys on here. I said that I planned on removing my name from the membership officially. I know you dont really care one way or the other because you dont know me at all. But I thought I would tell you that one of the things that pushed me away from the church was the inability of the missionaries to answer my questions. I got tired of being told doctrine that didnt have any scriptual evidence to back it up. When I kept asking the missionaries questions they got defensive with me and said that it wasnt their place to answer those questions and to let them know when I was ready to return to the church. What did I do wrong here? I was just trying to get answers about a God that I.was placing the trust of my eternity and my daughters eternity in. I wasnt rude or defensive in any way but I was shut down. What I heard them tell me was when you can believe without proof or question than give us a call. Was I wrong here? So ya since I couldnt do that I turned to a faith and a God that hasnt changed in 3000 years. A God that wasnt created by human hands or made up doctrine. Ya I was upset with the church for not being able to back up there doctrine and for pushing me away when I asked questions but I have truth now and thats what matters. And the faith Im in now doesnt discourage questions but rather encourages them. They dont fear questions because the answers are all in scripture. And it hasnt changed. So if im wrong or misled than tell me.
Cattyjane,
I know your post was not directed at me. But I thought I might comment.
I can tell you honestly that I have obtained very satisfying answers to some huge questions about the church and its doctrine. I am of the opinion that there is almost no question that cannot be answered. I feel like I have good answers for almost any question that could be asked about the church.
But here is the deal- essentially none of those answers came in response to my asking another person those questions. All of those answers have come in time as a result of personal study, prayer, pondering, and research. I do not expect anybody to spoon feed me anything about the gospel. It is up to me. I believe this is how God intends it.
There are countless resources for the interested seeker, especially with modern technology. There really is no reason a person cannot find satisfying answers if they really desire them.
The church does not “discourage questions” at all. In fact, it highly encourages questions balanced with personal motivation and action to find answers. Answers do not mean as much to a person when they have to do almost nothing to get them. But when they come after personal commitment, searching, and prayer, they mean everything.
Thanks.
Here’s the single most important issue I feel we need to address with Mormons:
How much does God love you? Do you think it is possible for God to love you any more than he does right now?
LDS are willing to believe everything they’ve been taught, because of Alma 42:13- “…mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice.”
Follow up questions: But what if Jesus’ sacrifice was enough to satisfy God’s sense of justice. Would that make Him more loving? What if God loved you even when you hadn’t earned it, and you don’t deserve it. Would that make Him more loving? What if you could be forgiven completely, right now. Would that make Him more loving?
Alex,
“In contrast there are about 15 million Mormons”
From what I understand, your church removes our names from the membership roles but they don’t remove us from the numbers. So this “almost” 15 million number you brag about isn’t accurate. Tell me why your church won’t release the actual numbers who are leaving.
Another thing to think about is how many of that almost 15 million are just on the membership roles and could actually care less about your church or religion? 30 -40 percent of converts in Latin America don’t even return to get confirmed. Please actually read the article I posted. By your church’s own admission, only about 5 million worldwide are active.
“Most LDS missionaries pay their own way.”
Yes, I know this. I have watched many family members and friends struggle financially sending their children on missions while your leaders sit in posh mansions, traveling around in private jets, wearing thousand dollar suits and not wanting for a thing. The LDS church has more than enough money to fund every missionary but they choose to let members suffer the financial burden. Why pay for it when you can get it for free right? They send out sales people and they don’t even have to pay them. Smart business men.
Wow. Just watched Aarons video. Some of the things he said are really interesting and very true.
Aaron,
Do you have theory as to why people who leave the LDS church, if they choose another faith, choose a faith that denys the Christ as the Messiah? I have a good reason for asking this question but I understand if your busy or dont feel it stays on topic enough.
Very interesting stuff going on with LDS missions! This new info goes well with Aaron’s topic and falcon’s info…
Very interesting news from the missionaries! Even my LDS friends were surprised, so I think this hasn’t been announced yet.
The MMs are no longer going to tract! They didn’t specify a time but they seemed to mean immediately, like they already don’t do it anymore. They said that tracts would still be handed out by members, but they didn’t say if there would be any new initiative other than the (semi) casual one they already have with member tracting.
They also brought up the increase in MM numbers due to the age change. They said there would be 95,000 missionaries. Again, they were not clear on when but they seemed to imply very soon. My quick estimate was 90,000 but I thought it might take a few years for LDS women and culture to adjust to the new safer opportunity before marriage.
They said something much more definitive and important for my city and I am sure the same is planned for your city if it is for mine! They said that the missionary zones or wards (I can’t remember the term they used) in my metro area were going to be split in two and that new sets of missionaries would be put into these new zones. I specifically asked them if that meant the city’s total number of missionaries would be doubled. They confirmed that. That’s going to be about 250 missionaries in my metro area!
Like I said, if they are doing that for my city they are definitely doing it for a whole lot of other cities. I hope you are ready to speak truth in love to all these young people God is sending our way!
For we are laborers together with God -1st Corinthians 3:9
FaithofFathers:
Which god do you worship? Why that one and not any of the others? (Assumption in this question: that the father, son, and holy ghost, and Adam, are all separate and distinct gods, though united in purpose.)
I don’t mean to trap you so much as to demonstrate that however this question is answered, the answer begs more significant questions than existed before.
I understand that you have found satisfying answers, but what do you mean by satisfying? I would assume answers that give you comfort such that they support your belief. But on what basis of support do you arrive at satisfaction? This was not addressed by you beyond saying there are good answers that are arrived at by time, prayer, and study.
I think its also important you consider homeschoolmom’s questions: what if Jesus’s love is enough to cover your sins?
This numbers game that Mormons love to play is ridiculous. As if how many members a church has listed on it’s roles makes their religion true. I have shown Alex just how inaccurate numbers can be but he’s trapped in the Mormon bubble.
As a Christian I don’t look at the 2 billion Christian number and think “Wow! Christianity must be true!” There are over 480 million Hindus, does that mean they are more true than Mormonism? Most religions worldwide have higher membership numbers than Mormonism, does that mean they are all more true than Mormonism? Why do the LDS look to numbers for truth? Thanks but I’ll look to God’s Holy Word for what is true and what is not. The numbers game doesn’t mean much to me.
Homeschoolmom,
I do not think God can love me more than He does now.
Your statement that “LDS are willing to believe anything they are taught” is nothing more than propaganda and conjecture. You have no basis for such a claim other than your biased opinion.
And why do you not quote Alma 42:13 in context? It is the best explanation of justice and mercy anywhere in the world. Here is the full verse and the previous verse:
“And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience; Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.”
The passage is explaining the necessity of the atonement of Christ and repentance on our part. Your taking that partial sentence out of context certainly may help you present an inaccurate representation of our doctrine, but it is not honest or in context.
And Jesus’ sacrifice was enough to satisfy the demands of justice. That is the whole point of Alma 42. Your argument is based upon a false assumption. We can be forgiven right now. Everything has been done for our salvation and welfare. We simply need to have faith in Christ and repent of our sins and follow Him.
FaithofFathers, I know you and I disagree on this point, but when you say, “And Jesus’ sacrifice was enough to satisfy the demands of justice.” I can’t help but cringe because I’d say that if he satisfied the demands of justice, you don’t have to do a thing. However, that is not what you believe.
MJP,
And it is not what you believe either. You believe a person must have faith in Christ to be saved. And I believe the same thing. But I believe repentance and obedience is inherent in faith.
The payment of the law of justice is entirely paid by Christ, not me. And that is what Alma 42 explains. I cannot help you if you do not have the means of working that out intellectually.
Faithoffathers,
I didnt ignore your reply to me. I have a response to you but I can reply better tonight at home from my computer.
Alex, Your a funny guy.
You say If I ask a sincere question. So any question you feel is not sincere you will not answer it. Typical Mormon response.
No, actually, it is not what I believe. I believe that I cannot do anything more to satisfy justice concerning my salvation than what Christ has done. Belief is all that is necessary– no acts, not rituals, no “after all I can do” language.
Your addition of repentance and obedience make it a very different program in regards to acknowledging the satisfaction of Jesus’ sacrifice. I believe his sacrifice fully, 100% satisfied justice, whereas you believe his sacrifice only kicks in after you’ve done all you can do.
Couch it in language such as repentance and obedience being inherent in faith all you want, but its not quite exactly like that, is it?
Faithoffathers~ I’m sorry for offending you by making generalizations. For the record, I said “everything”, not “anything, ” but I definitely could’ve taken the time to word that better. I didn’t quote the whole verse for the sake of time, not to try to take it out of context.
What I meant by my post, was that from my observation, there is a belief by LDS members that God does not save them from second death unless they meet certain requirements. I got that idea from talking with LDS people, reading the Book of Mormon (retain a remission of sins, labor diligently, endure to the end), and hearing this general conference by Richard G. Scott http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siD-85KBtaI
According to Alma 11:42-44, and 42:23, Jesus’ sacrifice satisfied the demand of justice and saved us from physical death only. Alma 12:32 states that Jesus sacrifice has no power to save us from second death, an eternal, spiritual death. There is still a requirement of works.
In my opinion, if God won’t save you unless you meet certain requirements, He is not very loving. I want everyone I come in contact with to know that the God of the Bible is so loving, He saved you even before you repented. He loved you when you were unlovable. And you are correct, there is absolutely no way he can possibly love you more than he does right now.
MJP- I never said you believed you could add to what Christ had done to meet the demands of justice. I said you believe you must have faith in Christ to be saved. Why change what I stated?
And I understand that you do not believe that you have to do anything to be saved but believe. Why did Christ command us to repent more than anything else?
I do not believe that that Christ’s sacrifice “only kicks in after I’ve done all I can do.” This simply shows how little you know about me and my faith.
It is naive to think nothing but mental processes is involved in “belief.” I suppose, if you are right, that Christ spent the majority of His ministry wasting His time talking about obedience and repentance. Don’t you think that is weird?
Homeschoolmom- how in the world could you come to the conclusion that we believe Christ’s atonement only results in our overcoming physical death. I really cannot conclude anything but that you know very little about our doctrine. What was Christ’s suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane about if we really believe what you claim we believe?
And I must say that you do not understand those passages in Alma. The passage in Alma 11 is specifically speaking of the resurrection. But before those verses, it says, “we must come forth and stand before him in his glory, and in his power, and in his might, majesty, and dominion, and acknowledge to our everlasting shame that all his judgements are just; that he is just in all his works, and that he is merciful unto the children of men, and that he has all power to save every man that believeth on his name and bringeth forth fruit meet for repentance.”
Repentance is the key. But according to you guys, repentance has no role in salvation. What a strange thing, in my opinion.
And you should include Alma 12:33 in your reference to explain it more fully. It reads, “But God did call on men, in the name of his son (this being the plan of redemption which was laid) saying: If ye will repent, and harden not your hearts, then will I have mercy upon you, through mine Only Begotten Son; Therefore, whosoever repenteth, and hardeneth not his heart, he shall have claim on mercy through mine Only Begotten Son, unto a remission of his sins; and these shall enter into my rest. ”
So what these chapters is teaching is that we must repent to have access to the mercy and grace of Christ. If this is not true, what role, if any, does repentance have in salvation? None? If we do not repent, we must answer the ends of the law ourselves. And that is not going to be a fun thing.
Thanks.
FoF, I am trying not to be personal with this, but you are the king of passive aggressiveness. What you do quite often if talk all nice but the words have a lot of venom underneath, and a lot backhanded compliments. You’ve just told me that I don’t understand your belief, but I am merely going based on what I have learned from countless discussions with you and other Mormons, not to mention your leaders, about how you are saved. Of course, being saved has a very different meaning between you and I, so perhaps I am not surprised you take the position you do.
Nonetheless, here you put words into my mouth about what we mean when we say that there is no effort to be put into our salvation. You do not understand that we actually mean exactly that. Belief is a state of mind, friend. It is a mental process, not a physical process.
And just the same, don’t you think it odd that he spent so much time chastising his disciples for not believing, and spending so much time saying, “All you have to do is believe in me”?
I am happy to go into detail on my take on the works/repentance issue. I’ll say that we do those things not to earn our salvation, nor to please Jesus, but to demonstrate to others our dedication to Him. We can not do a thing and still be saved, though.
Jesus loves us enough such that he gave his life for our salvation such that we need not do anything but believe in him. There is no qualifier that he steps in only after we have done all we can do. And do you deny that you believe that Jesus steps in for you only after you have done all you can do?
FoF
you said,
Repentance is the key.
I say,
I completely agree, But I think that you mean something different by the word than I do. Could you give me your definition of this word?
Given my experience with postmoderns like you I think it’s is best to clarify definitions at every juncture
you say
You believe a person must have faith in Christ to be saved. And I believe the same thing.
I say,
I think you mean something different than I do when you say this as well.
when we allow words to have meaning faith and repentance are the exact opposite of works.
Faith is a gift not a work, I can not will myself to believe anything. I either believe or I do not.
You could offer me a million dollars if I would just believe in the Easter bunny and your money would be safe. I can not make myself believe something any more than I can make myself love something these sorts of emotions are totally out of my control.
Repentance on the other hand simply means to change your mind.
I can not make my self change my mind anymore that I can make myself believe.
Faith and repentance originate entirely from God and I have absolutely nothing to offer in exchange for God’s salvation.
As for the necessity of obedience true obedience is simply the fruit of the Spirit in someones life.
An apple tree does not labor to produce apples, apples are just the natural product of apple trees.
Again it is all of God from first to last I add nothing whatsoever.
Can you really not see the difference between Christian belief in these matters and LDS teaching ?
Peace
This is what I know based on a blog written by a Mormon which I referred to several threads ago.
In Mormonism, you have to “earn” it! If Mormons deny this they are woefully ignorant of their own religion (which many are) or they are lying.
Jesus, the Mormon Jesus, with his suffering in the Garden and death on the cross, made it possible for Mormons to work their way into the Celestial Kingdom and deification. That’s what the religious system is all about.
Now Mike R has written about how the Mormon Jesus didn’t take this path in becoming a god. He went through some other form of training and tutoring.
Generally speaking, the Mormon gods have the system and their hard work to thank for their lofty position as gods.
Can anyone provide me a verse or two from the Bible to support any of this? Of course not. It’s all extra-Biblical. As such, anyone who would believe it, along with all of the other Mormon nonsense is a fool.
There’s nothing Christian about LDS Mormonism. It’s a heathen religion, with heathen gods.
I put my faith and confidence in my salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ. As a follower of Jesus, my goal is to conform my behavior to His expectations. The bad news is that I can’t because I’m lost and a slave to sin. There is nothing good to be found in me. I am wretched in my natural state. I agree with God that I need a Savior.
The Good News is that the blood of Jesus continually cleanses me from all of my unrighteousness. Might Christians “earn” a reward; various “crowns”. Sure we can and we take them off and cast them before the King of King and Lord of Lords in honor and gratitude to Him for what He did for us.
It’s all about Jesus with Christians. With Mormons, it’s all about themselves and what they can earn if they do all that they can do in serving the religious system of Mormonism.
I get a big kick out of these Mormons who show-up here and tell us that they’ve come to their conclusions after much “prayer, study and reflection”. It’s like “OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, is that deep!”
First of all it doesn’t do a lot of good to pray to the wrong god, study the wrong material and reflect on things that are off-the-wall.
Did Brigham Young come to his conclusions about the nature of God and Jesus after prayer, reflection and study? Sure it was and yet the LDS church rejects everything their “prophet” taught on this matter. What about Bruce McConkie and his book “Mormon Doctrine”? Did he come to his conclusions after much prayer, study and reflection? I would think he would say he did and yet the LDS church won’t print his book any more.
I’ve come to my conclusions regarding what I believe after much prayer, reflection and study. So I guess Mormons would have to conclude that what I believe is true.
Faithoffathers~ Repentance comes after God already saved us. It is not a condition of salvation, it is my response to His free gift.
FaithofFathers,
Ok. Im sorry it took me so long to respond to you.
First off I want to say that I did take a bit of offense to your comment that you posted to me. The reason why was because it sounded like you were accusing me of not putting any effort into finding out answers myself. I told you that I was studying with the LDS missionaries for 3 months twice a week but I had already been studying the BOM on my own since the end of last December in order to decide if I wanted to return to the church. Just because someone makes the decision not to return does not mean that they didn’t put forth any effort to find out if the Church was true or not on their own. It was important to me that if I returned to the Church that the testimony I had belonged to ME. I didn’t want to ride on anyone else’s testimony to tell me that the Church was true. So yes I read and prayed every night. Sometimes whole chapters at a time. I loved reading Doctrine and Covenants! I know I was a weirdo but I liked it. I watched General Conference this year and really enjoyed the speakers. I thought that they had some really good talks and made some good points.
Richard Scott was one of my favorite speakers. I liked what he said about how we need to remember to recognize the good in others and that people in our families who aren’t living right should be approached in love. He also said that they are not alone but are under the eye of the Lord and that things happen in his timing and that there is a time and a season for everything.
I don’t believe that everything that is in the LDS church is bad. There is actually some things that you say that I agree with. But I want to tell you one of the major things that made me realize that the foundation of the LDS church cannot be true and it is such a major component that it cannot be ignored by anyone who is truly seeking Truth.
The entire bible is nothing more than Messianic Prophesy. It is Prophesy given and Prophesy fulfilled. Im not sure how familiar you are with the Jewish faith but the lack of fulfillment of just a few of the prophesies will cause the denial of a proclaimed Messiah. So any person of Hebrew lineage would know that if you are recording anything having to do with Messianic prophesy being revealed or fulfilled it had better be exact!
If I was asked what the most important Messianic prophesy was that was given in the OT I would have to say that it would be the birthplace of the Messiah. In Micah 5:2 it states “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting” This prophesy was recorded as fulfilled in Luke 2:4-7 when it says “Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem…”
So why did Alma 7:10 state “And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers…” ?
I asked this question and this was the response that I received. Jerusalem and Bethlehem are so close to each other that it was basically the same city. Bethlehem is like a suburb of Jerusalem. I don’t think so. First of all Jerusalem is not a land but a city and this is stated in Zechariah 8:3 and Matthew 5:35. If Bethlehem was considered to be in any land it would be in the land of Judah which was stated in the scripture I posted above in Luke 2:4. It is also stated in Matthew 2:6. Bethlehem is a different city than Jerusalem. To state that someone was born in a city that they were not seems ridiculous and pointless. But more importantly it contrasts Messianic Prophesy. If the BOM were true than the child born to Mary would not have fulfilled Messianic prophesy. If all scriptures were lost except the book of Alma, people reading that scripture who were knowledgeable about Messianic prophesy would not believe that child to be the promised Messiah.
There is nothing more important to the Hebrew/Jewish people than the promised Messiah. Any person of Jewish decent would know that it would be wrong to say Jerusalem instead of Bethlehem. The BOM scripture directly defies Messianic prophesy as it refers to Christian belief in Christ as the Messiah…which the LDS church claims to share in as well. So if you want the BOM to follow Messianic prophesy about the Birth Place of the Christian Christ, you might want to suggest this be one of the corrections that the church makes in its next BOM printing.
cattyjane,
Very good. You get an A+.
However having been a Mormon, I know that you know that you could paper the SLC temple with evidence that Mormonism is false and guys like FOF would just blow it off. They believe in Mormonism. The Bible is irrelevant. What counts is what the “prophet” says even though these schmucks are clueless.
You get it! The fog bank lifted. You can see clearly. I rejoice and am amazed at what God is doing in your life.
homeschoolmom
So God saves us not based on our deeds of righteousness but because of our faith in Jesus, right? Sort of an interesting point you make. I don’t know if I’ve ever thought about it. We come to Christ in faith and repent; not we repent and come to Christ in faith. Set me to thinking about my own situation. Yup that’s the way I did it. I came to Christ in faith and as a result I changed. Interesting prospect. I can’t remember coming under conviction for sin. I remember coming to the realization of who Jesus is and accepting Him as my Lord and Savior. The thing that we have to repent of is our unbelief. That happens when we accept Him by faith.
Maybe some people come under conviction of sin and turn to God for forgiveness as steps in receiving Jesus as their Lord and Savior. I don’t know if there’s a prescribed process. The important thing is to get there.
Last thing. Talking to Mormons about this is like cross-cultural communication. They don’t get it because their religious system which leads them, they think, to becoming gods has a whole different set of premises and propositions. All of them wrong of course.
Falcon,
Yep very true. But I just wanted him to see that I didn’t make some off the cuff decision to leave the church but he will still think I did anyway. Oh well. I think that is what is going to make me the most upset is people thinking that I made some ignorant decision to leave the Church. That I must not have been praying or I wasn’t studying. I don’t know. I didn’t convert to another Christian Church when I decided to leave so its not like some Mainstream Christian Church got a hold of me and pulled me in. You guys pointed things out to me that were proven false and I found some stuff on my own to that proved it false. There was just too much against it to ignore.
I like what Aaron said : ” Something greater than the Temple is here” . When we look at what
Mormon apostles have offered through the years as their ” restored gospel ” and compare it to
the gospel of salvation that Jesus’ apostles like Paul preached [ Rom 1:16 ] , we can see that in
doing this that instead of a restoring , the Mormon gospel amounts to a ” replaced gospel” .
This behavior by prophets in the latter days of claiming to have “restored” or ” re-established ”
the gospel as preached by Jesus’ apostles is’nt a surprise . Jesus pre-warned us about men who
would come claiming to represent Him and offer the true salvation message , also Paul warned
us today to beware of men( or even angels ) who do not teach sound doctrine [ Matt 24:11; 2Tim 4:3-4 ; Gal 1:8 ] . The Mormon people need to hear of the incredible good news that instead of
striving to earn access to allegedly God’s “house ” ( the Temple ) here on earth as well as
eternal life in God’s presence above with full blessings there by strict obedience to the rules
regulations and commands taught by their apostles , they can gain access to God’s presence
and eternal life by another door, and it’s only through that door /temple that one can gain the
presence of our Heavenly Father above —-Jn 2: 19; 10:9; 14:1-6; Heb 10:19 -20 . No man made
Temple and interrogation sessions with a Bishop to pass to gain access , no prophet at the top
creating new regulations required to earn access . Rather , it’s about Jesus ! . Heb 7:25 .
That truly is the good news that the Mormon people need to hear .
Mike,
“Earning it” is the key concept in Mormonism and it is antithetical to what the Bible teaches. This is what drives Mormons nuts about the gospel of Jesus Christ as it is presented in God’s Word the Holy Bible. That something can be “free” and not “earned” is mind blowing to Mormons. They talk about a form of “grace” but it is Mormon grace. In Mormonism a person has to do a lot of stuff and the purpose of the doing is to reach the pinnacle of spiritual success, becoming a god.
Is this clearly presented to people by the Mormon missionaries?
What is preached by the MM? I don’t know I’ve never had them pitch me. Is it that we all sin and fall short of the glory of God? That God has made provision for us through His Son Jesus Christ? That salvation is a gift that God offers us that is received by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ?
I don’t know. What are these missionary boys trying to convince their prospects of and sign up for?
I went through an evangelism training program years ago and the point was to present the gospel to people. Campus Crusade had/has an approach where by they present the “four spiritual laws” to people.
Here they are:
God loves you and offers a wonderful plan for your life.
Man is sinful and separated from God.
Therefore, he cannot know and experience
God’s love and plan for his life.
Jesus Christ is God’s only provision for man’s sin.
Through Him you can know and experience
God’s love and plan for your life.
We must individually receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord;
then we can know and experience God’s love and plan for our lives.
Here are the four spiritual laws with a short explanation.
http://www.campuscrusade.com/fourlawseng.htm
Mike R and falcon,
Without getting into too much on my beliefs as far as certain works and observances go, the problem I find with LDS works and temple ordinances is that the dont line up biblically. You would think that if JS was going to restore the Church as he calls it than he would make it similar to what it was. Bring back the feasts, honor the true sabbath, observe the food laws, pray three times daily. And if he wanted to include temple stuff in there than require a voyage to Israel during each persons life. You cant really go wrong with that because its in the bible and clearly defined. But to create an etirely new list of requirements in order to progress in the kingdom is wrong.
To say that baptisms for the dead were performed because of one scripture is premature. Did it say they did it in the temple? Did they say it was for forgiveness of sin? This kind of nonsense just makes me question JS understanding of the entire bible historically and culturally.
Falcon, that’s about right. I’ve been exposed to the 4 laws you presented above. Though worded slightly differently, that is essence of it.
I learned most of information from a variety of sources. It would be impossible to list them all here. But the four spiritual laws as defined by Campus Crusade are in line with most everything else one can read about the state of man, according to Christians.
The laws suggest that God loves us as his creation, that we cannot be near him due to our sin, but faith through Jesus provides a bridge to return to God. That is the gospel in a nutshell.
Oh ya and there is no such thing as kingdom progression. Its just you are or you arent part of His people. Just so everyones clear im not saying certain observances progress a person in the kingdom.
So what are the MM selling, really?
To me it appears that they are selling the LDS church. Everything in Mormonism revolves around “the church”, the “system” by which someone might become a god.
Of course there’s Jesus and Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother and a variety of Heavenly great grandfathers, but they are role players in the bigger picture. The bigger picture is making it to the Celestial Kingdom with the forever family in tow. In order to get that done, the Mormon parents have to get themselves on the fast track of LDS success.
I really can’t understand why someone would be a Mormon without going full-bore into the temple program, because it’s there that LDS spiritual success is achieved. There are callings and the Word of Wisdom and the Word of Chastity etc. but the real success comes from the temple rituals.
cattyjane,
You’re right! There’s nothing in the Mormon temple that resembles what took place in the Jewish temple. There was nothing in the first century to be restored by Joseph Smith because none of what the LDS church claims as restored even took place back then.
Don’t forget where Smith claims he got the priesthood. He had all manner of spirit beings appear to him including an angel with a sword that said he’d kill Smith if he didn’t start practicing plural marriage.
BTW, what would be some good questions to ask the MM when they started pitching the Mormon program. Here’s a couple I’d like to ask.
1. You claim that your church has apostles and prophets unlike other religious groups. Jesus warned about false prophets. What are the signs of a false prophet and do your prophets past and present pass the test?
2. What was the means by which Joseph Smith translated the gold tablets?
3. What sect of Mormonism has the real restoration and hence is the one true church.
4. Who is Jesus?
5. Who is God?
6. Are there more than one god and do you plan on becoming one?
7. How does someone become a god?
8. What is the prescribed manner by which someone changes their magic underwear?
I have more but that’s just a sample.
Falcon,
Nice touch with the magic underwear question dude! I hope I get to meet you and Rick B in person one day. I bet you guys are a riot! 🙂
Catty, I’ve actually had this same thought: I wonder what Mormons do with Passover? Or with Rosh Hashanna or Tissha B’av?
MJP,
Well considering Tissha B’av was just this week it would be a great question to ask. Its amazing how LDS speak out of both sides of their mouth. They say, oh the old law is passed away so we dont do all that stuff but yes in order to acheive the highest kingdom we have to do all these other things that dont resemble anything from the ways people worshiped the God of Israel.
MJP
Tisha b’av sorry spelled it wrong. But really thats not one of the orginal feasts anyway its more of a day of rememberance and mourning. But Passover for sure would be a good one to bring up as far as God ordained feasts.
cattyjane,
Meet Rick and I? Are you sure you could handle it? I’m like calm compared to Rick. He’s got way too much testosterone. You could shoot him with a tranquilizer or stun gun and not slow him down. The first thing he wanted to do when I met him was arm wrestle! We met for lunch and he ordered a raw steak. I didn’t mind that so much but the growling noises he was making while he was eating it drew attention from the other diners. It was a little embarrassing.
Anyway, Rick and I live in the same area but in different states. His one saving grace is that he doesn’t like professional sports so he’s not a Vikings’ fan. I don’t think I could take that! There’s a major border’s war around here regarding the dominant pro football teams.
What part of the country do you live in (general)? I travel some with my retirement gig so who knows? I may end up in your area some time.
If not I bet you’d love to visit the Mall of America.