Previously Aaron wrote about the current trend in Mormonism wherein Mormons tell Christians that Mormon beliefs are just the same as theirs – Mormon doctrines are the same as [fill-in-the-Christian-denomination] doctrines. I want to expand on a bit of what Aaron wrote, and add to it.
Mormonism claims that in 1820 all Christian denominations were fighting against each other, not only for converts, but for their unique versions of spiritual truth. According to Joseph Smith,
“…so great were the confusion and strife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person young as I was, and so unacquainted with men and things, to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong. My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others. In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together?” (Joseph Smith—History 1:8-10)
If every Christian denomination advocates for disparate doctrines, as Joseph Smith said, how can Mormon doctrines be the same as all of them?
When Joseph Smith inquired of God to know which church was right, he claims he was told that the creeds and doctrines of these churches were all wrong (Joseph Smith—History 1:19) – if Mormonism’s doctrines are just the same as these other churches, then reason dictates that Mormonism’s doctrines must also be all wrong – right?
At General Conference in April 2006 President James Faust quoted Apostle Dallin Oaks,
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has many beliefs in common with other Christian churches. But we have differences, and those differences explain why we send missionaries to other Christians” (“The Restoration of All Things,” Ensign, May 2006, 61)
How can these beliefs be different but the same?
Larry Dahl, then Associate Dean of Religious Education at BYU explained,
“Truly the bright light of the Restoration, bursting forth from the time of the Prophet Joseph Smith, makes clear the fundamental, eternal principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ. That light, revealed through the Prophet, replaced doctrinal shadows and clouds of error the world had inherited as a result of the great Apostasy nearly 2,000 years ago.” (Ensign, “The Morning Breaks, the Shadows Flee,” Ensign, April 1997, 12)
Apostle Boyd K. Packer expressed a similar idea during the commemoration of the 175th anniversary of the priesthood restoration in 2004. As reported by Church News,
“The [Mormon] Church is not merely an adjustment or correction of what had become Christianity following the Apostasy, President Packer said. “It is a replacement, a restoration of organization and authority to what had been when Christ established it.” (Church News, 5/22/04, 4)
If the “bright light of the Restoration” replaced the “doctrinal shadows and clouds of error” that non-Mormons believe — if Mormonism is a replacement of traditional Christianity — how can Mormon beliefs be the same as those in apostate Christianity?
In fact, in 2007 President Faust told a gathering of mission presidents and their wives,
“Our message is distinctly different because it contains the gospel restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith.” (Church News, 6/30/07, 5)
President Gordon B. Hinckley also explained that there are “many things of a doctrinal nature that distinguish this Church from all others” (Church News, 8/6/05, 2). Indeed, while encouraging Mormons to maintain their self-identification as Christians, Mr. Hinckley clarified,
“Now we may not be Christian by the standards of the world. In fact, we are not Christians by the standard under which they are Christian. If we were, there would have been no need for a restoration of the gospel. The restoration of the gospel occurred to correct all the mistakes of the past.” (Church News, 5/23/98, 5)
Members of the Mormon Church may be more comfortable telling Christians that Mormon beliefs are the same as their beliefs, but to say that is to be disloyal to the consistent teachings of Mormon leaders from Joseph Smith to current Mormon apostles, and to disdain the whole reason for The Restoration. The teachings of Mormonism are necessarily different from those of the allegedly apostate Christian world. Mormons, Christians invite you to gird up your loins and respectfully engage in the debate. Why? Because as Aaron said, “Truth matters. Life matters. Jesus matters.”
Like Mike R I had to shake my head at what Silkworm has said, the deception is almost unbelievable. I won’t say any more than that for now as I posted a similar response to Mikes a few hours ago. Unfortunately it’s ended up, temporarily I trust, in mod jail.
Heinlein was a great science fiction author, and I’ve read all his books, but he was an atheist. And he had nothing good to say about Mormons either in Stranger In a Strange Land… grok!
The quote has been taken out of context.
The Bible does say so expressly:
The fullness is the pleroma. (πλήρωμα) That’s about as explicit as it gets.
So? This proves nothing. There is no reference for this quote. Where is the ACTUAL REFERENCE for him saying this, not what Tom Harpur said he said. If this is like the rest of your quotes, you have a big problem. Case in point:
This came from the Jehovah Witnesses and they botched up the quote. No year, article or page number given. It was quoted in, Should you believe the Trinity?, A Watchtower publication.
Methinks you need to check your sources; you are way off base here. It actually says,
Next:
A JUVENILE argument given again by the deceptive Watchtower. Matt Slick agrees,
Next bogus quote:
Another PHONY Watchtower quote. Again, you are getting these from Anti Trinity websites or Jehovah Witnesses who do not believe in the Trinity and are making up these quotes.
blah, blah, blah…. same deal … doctored quote.
You must have gotten the last quotes (not listed here) from a wiki talk page that just retreads the JW quotes. They are all spurious. Please PROVE that they are not, by LINKING TO THE ACTUAL SOURCES (The Encyclopedias you are quoting from). Bet ‘cha can’t. If you can, I bet they don’t say what you quoted (as has been pointed out above).
Silk, that whole thing was really laughable. 🙂 🙂 🙂 I can’t wait for the next installment. Those quotes have all been EXPOSED as being doctored or out of context or made up.
You got part of it right. That verse is an interpolation. But the Bible does lay out the Trinity doctrine. I’ve shown it.
I doubt it. You have no credibility left. Justin Martyr taught that the Father and Jesus were one substance. Here is what Martyr actually said about God:
[1] Dialogue with Trypho Ch. 61, 62
[2] ibid Ch. 128
[3] ibid Ch. 128
You have to do better than this Silk. I recommend you proof your quotes before you take them off of strange websites.
Grindael
You mentioned St. John of Damascus in your response to Silkworm. You may have missed my reply so I’ll just copy what I said concerning him
“St. John of Damascus was an 8th Cent. Theologian & TRINITARIAN
I quote from one of his discourses
“And when I say God, it is evident that I mean the Father and His Only begotten Son, our Lord, Jesus Christ, and His all-holy Spirit, our one God”
Tom Harpur as far as I’m aware was/is a priest turned journalist & Silkworm, without bothering to check Harpur’s sources, simply quoted what he found. The impression given is that John of Damascus was not a believer in the Trinity when in fact he was an ardent defender of the doctrine
FoF,
I tried to post this yesterday but had run out of posts.
Its a poem I wrote a number of years ago:
How dare you die for me.
I did not deserve it.
None of it.
Yet you did.
How dare you.
You put yourself through
such pain and torment.
… For me.
Why did you do such a thing
When I am so unworthy?
I did not deserve a thing.
Yet you died.
You took the torture.
You took the ridicule.
I put you there.
I killed you.
Willingly you went.
Willingly you suffered.
And for what?
For me?
I cannot believe you.
You did this on your own,
You did this to save.
But why?
What is so important?
I am nothing and empty.
Do you see something different?
I am blind.
And you died?
What will that do?
Will it help me see?
Well, will it?
How dare you,
You who died for me.
But you rose.
You rose from the dead.
You did all of that.
You took on all of it.
For me.
…For me.
How dare me
To dare you.
When you died,
When you rose again.
How dare me wonder,
When you died to save
Not yourself,
But me.
—MJP
And, FoF,
I have corrected you. Go back and read what I wrote yesterday.
Your honesty? When I asked you to describe differences, you rant about the deficiencies of our faith. These deficiencies are misrepresentations of our faith, revealing the hypocritical nature of your objections to us.
Your honesty? Where have you fully described the nature of salvation in your faith? Its not just when you accept Christ, is it? To be fully saved in Mormonism, you have to do much, much more, right?
Your honesty? Where have you admitted the ‘similarities’ in our faith are superficial? Isn’t a superficial label just a label? And isn’t a label alone worthless in determining meaning? You insist these superficial labels prove that our faiths have a lot in common, but when you actually look at what these labels actually describe, they are very, very different indeed.
Your honesty? When describing how you won’t mock our faith, you turn right around and say how crazy we are for believing X, Y, and Z.
I don’t want this to be a character assassination, but I do think you are quite good at back handed compliments, projection, and at being passive aggressive. I see you trying to be nice, but behind it is really a lot of venom. Yesterday’s rant is a great example.
You loathe us critics underneath, yet you continue to come here. Something is going on inside of you, I am sure. What that is, I have no idea. I hope you can really consider what it is we say. God loves you, and is drawing you in. Its OK. He wants you and sees so much more for you life than what you have now, whether you have much or little.
Understand that we here are not trying to embarrass you. No, we want you to know God. God is wonderful, beautiful, and powerful. Resting in his peace is indescribable.
I hope you come to see that.
If anyone is interested, I put Silkworm’s argument to rest (about Justin Martyr) against a Mormon Hebrew Scholar who left this thread because he could not defend Mormon theosis, or his claims about Justin Martyr. He also tried to argue that Justin did not teach that the Father and Jesus were one substance, but that is EXACTLY what he taught, as is painfully obvious to anyone who actually reads what Justin wrote.
MJP-
I almost never go on the offensive and criticize other faiths, even when others seem so offensive in their criticism of my faith. I can be fairly aggressive in defending my own faith, but I really don’t go after others about their faith. After you repeatedly begged me to be out and open about our differences, and your insistence that “you could take it,” I let down and stated some of our differences and made some criticisms. I have learned once again that such a course really never results in any good. It was not the way of Christ, and it never results in real faith. It always diminishes faith.
Now you have turned and seem put out by my honesty and are now critical of my dilineation of our theological and religious differences as I see them.
The point of this thread was an argument that LDS always insist that our beliefs are “just like yours.” In other words, we are so weak and needy for acceptance that we cannot take a stand and clearly state our differences. I have shown that we have both differences and similarities. But as is always the case with 99.9% of the critics, they simply cannot be reasonable and dispassionate. They must always cut and criticize. And as I have said many times, this is the greatest evidence, in my opinion, against their arguments and position.
You still haven’t demonstrated that I was incorrect in describing non-LDS Christianity. Sure- my tone was one of criticism and dismissal. But I cannot see where you have shown me wrong.
You seem now to be asking for a full explanation of all out doctrines- faith and salvation, etc. You guys can almost never stay on topic.
The doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has similarities with non-LDS Christianity. But there are also some significant (and very fortunate) differences.
Despite the criticism that suggests otherwise, President Faust could not be more correct in his statement.
Fof, I call you out because you need to be called out. You revealed your true feelings, which I believe are the more honest feelings. This is good. Be honest. Be sincere. Get angry. Let it out. I am not interested in working out the nuances of our faiths now, and told you that. It’s therefore you who is not responding to what is written; not I.
But this last post from you avoid virtually everything I said. You still maintain the similarities are greater than being merely superficial. Do you really believe that? Do you believe the ‘similarities’ you bring up stand up when one begins to discuss them?
If you do, you are greatly mistaken or dishonest.
The poem I wrote and posted demonstrates my feelings on Christ’s death on the cross. It’s amazing he took my sins– mine, truly and personally mine– and died to save me. He did this for you, too. And there’s nothing we can do to add to that. He saved us fully, and without condition. But your faith doesn’t teach that ultimately, does it? If you deny this, you are mistaken, or dishonest.
Again, we’re here to show you the Truth. The Truth is that God loves you and wants you to come to him. You keep coming here for a reason. I don’t know what that is, but I do know you keep coming here. You wouldn’t do this if there was not a reason.
What does all this have to do with the topic of the thread? If you cannot recognize, or admit, the similarities are superficial at best, then something is amiss with you. You’re either mistaken or dishonest. I think you know this, but cannot admit it. This attitude is in some way similar to how you likely know God simply wants you. And you know what I mean by that, I assume, and it is not the same as what Mormos mean.
MJP-
Some of the similarities are not just superficial. Unless you think that believing in a Savior named Jesus Christ who lived 2,000 years ago in whom we must believe and whom we must follow is insignificant. I have never said that our differences were insignificant. In fact, I have stated the opposite. You keep projecting onto me things and words that are in no way justified. I have no interest or need to be “like” any other Christians beyond the understanding that I believe in and seek every day of my life to follow Jesus of Nazareth as my Savior and Redeemer.
By the way, I enjoyed your poem. I feel the very same way.
I believe that a being named Jesus Christ lived 2,000 years ago and was the Son of God and my personal Savior. I believe that there is nothing I can do to save myself. I know that Christ is the only means of my salvation. It is shocking that He who was perfect, sinless, and all-powerful would be willing to offer Himself for insignificant little me. It does not add up on man’s “paper.” It makes no sense. But it happened as a result of love, mercy, and the goodness of God.
I come to this blog because I believe the Christians who spend their time criticizing my church and faith have lowsy arguments and are largely dishonest people. I come here to offer lurkers an alternative perspective to the controversies and issues relating to the restored gospel.
You guys are not “here to show us the truth.” That is one of the most bogus claims I hear. So many of our critics simply do not even want to discuss their faith. You guys seek to put down other people. There is absolutely no reason for me or others to believe otherwise. Human nature is not that complicated. And people who spend so much time criticizing other people and their faith have something fundamentally wrong with them that they are hiding. No lines about ‘love for the Mormons’ or following in the footsteps of Paul jives with me or people who have any experience with human nature.
You guys feel threatened. That is the bottom line. And I get it. My intent is to show the double standards that are ALWAYS employed by our critics who are religious. The atheists who criticize us are at least consistent and usually do not employ a double standard.
Fof F, you believe that 99.9% of “critics” are not reasonable and dispassionate, that they must
always cut and criticize , and that this is the greatest evidence against their arguments and
position .
You really are getting more frustrated because you have failed so often to sound convincing
in your attempts to rescue your apostles from being indicted as imitation apostles in these
latter days . You also criticize , are dispassionate and accuse others here of misrepresenting
what Mormon leaders have said . I think MJP may have had you pegged all along because
despite your slow start at being “nice” and even by saying “thanks” at the end of your criticisms
you simply are like so many knowledgeable Mormons who stop by here and soon learn that all
your intellect is’nt convincing enough to rescue your leaders from being seen as those who
Jesus pre- warned everyone to watch out for in the latter days [ Mk 13:22-23 ] .
The greatest evidence against the position of the non-LDS here is that they criticize to much ?
“greatest evidence ” ? Did I read that right ?
I’ve said more than once that I believe that the vast majority of LDS are decent , good people
who are striving to serve God , but they have been detoured by men who are good at mimicking
Jesus’ true apostles and therefore have misled sincere people . The Mormon people need to
know the truth about this , we’re here to help , despite enduring some Mormons like you
who are here only because you view this ministry (MRM) as a “anti ….” one , and try to stop
it’s influence to aid those Mormons who are seeking answers because they know something is’nt
quite right in their church and their with leaders.
MikeR-
I don’t recall “trying to rescue [my] apostles from being endicted as imitation apostles.”
I understood and recognized long ago that no critic learns anything from defenders of our church. Hence, that is not my intent. Like I said above, my intent is to offer those who read these threads an alternative perspective about my faith and church. I have no problem with the fact that some people will believe the grindael types. I truly believe they deserve those beliefs. But there are people who will recognize some reason and sense in what I have to say. And that is all I seek to provide.
I suppose I could modify my statement and say that the most obvious indicator of the weak and anemic arguments from the critics is the disproportionate energy they expend on criticizing the faith of others, especially when the claim to represent Christ. Anybody who knows anything about Christ can see the contradiction.
And I suppose the greatest evidence against the critics is the evidence against their arguments. But understanding that evidence requires more than 99.9% of the critics are willing to do.
Understand, I am talking about the religious critics of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I respect and admire true and faithful Christians who are not members of our church and who live their religion.
The only similarity between Mormonism and Christianity is that they SOUND similar. They use similar words. Other than that the differences are insurmountable. The problem that FOF faces is that he says that he believes things that his leaders don’t teach, yet he still upholds those leaders as they only true teachers of God, while all others are “apostates” (by his own words). Mormon leaders have shown that FOF is mistaken in his MORMON beliefs, that there is “nothing” he can do to save himself. But he must do everything that his leaders say to do. Among them are affirming that they are prophets and to not speak out against them. If he does this, he will be reprimanded and cast out of the church unless he shuts up and begs for forgiveness. He must marry (not taught in the Bible), he must pay his tithing (not under the New Covenant), he must obey food regulations (expressly forbidden by Jesus apostles) etc., etc., etc., These are the differences we stress here, and provide Biblical answers for. They are summarily dismissed, ignored and ridiculed by those that come here and then claim “persecution”.
In Mormonism, Christ is not the “only means of salvation”, it is the Mormon Priesthood that is. Without it, Christ is powerless. He acquired it. In Christianity, Christ is God from all Eternity. Mormon Jesus was simply the spirit baby of a polygamous God who was once an “intelligence” that came from a primordial spawning ground of “light and truth” (whatever that is). Christ was someone that was chosen simply because he was the first born spirit son of his Father. If Christ had rebelled, or had chosen not to volunteer, it would have been someone else. Mormonism destroys the very uniqueness of God. How does “love and mercy and goodness” play out in the grand scheme of Mormonism, when this kind of operation has been going on “for all eternity”? Multiple “saviors” that must die horrible deaths to atone for the sin of an Adam that really is no sin! How utterly illogical. It makes the rebellion of Satan ridiculous, because Satan knew that he would be frustrated because he did not have a body. He threw a temper tantrum (supposedly) and got a bunch of others to follow him. But if Physical immortal beings have more power than spirit beings, then how could Satan have more power than sons of perdition who were resurrected and then forced to become devils for other worlds as Brigham Young taught? These are the kinds of things that make Mormonism diametrically opposed to Christianity. And how in the world did Christ become a God in the pre-existence? This goes against everything Jo Smith taught about how Mormon gods are made. (That is why Brigham Young taught that Elohim, Jehovah, (not Christ but the father of Michael) and Michael/Adam created this world, NOT CHRIST, because he knew how illogical it was that Christ could have done so as a pre-existant spirit. It makes no sense, just like when Jo said that no one could see God without the Priesthood, and yet Jo claimed to have done just that, then claimed to have gotten it from “angels” in an account that no one ever heard of before 1834 and that he had to re-write into an earlier “revelation” to make people think he got it earlier than he actually did by Lyman Wight in 1831.
All of these contradictions come from Jo not being able to stop himself from adding on doctrines that were of interest to him as he went along his merry way, regardless of what he had revealed before. His lectures on faith totally contradict his earlier and later teachings about God, but who cares? The “prophet” has spoken, God will now be redefined. Ignore that man behind the curtain. If Christians have such lousy arguments against Mormonism, then why is Marlin Jensen going about saying that Google has caused an apostasy that rivals that of the Kirtland period of the church? That the First Presidency is so concerned about it that they are creating arguments that will soon be published to address the rising tide of apostasy? The Christian arguments aren’t lousy because they are the truth. Quotes from Mormons themselves and their history. Historical Facts that can’t be fudged away because now all the information is out there.
What is so tragic is that we do discuss OUR faith here, and I’ve quoted reams of Biblical scriptures in addition to Mormon doctrine that are totally ignored by the ones who say they are here to impress the lurkers with REAL Mormon teachings, but have no answers for the historical and doctrinal quotes of their leaders. And then, when they have been shown they are wrong, they just ignore it all and start over on a new thread like nothing ever happened and they were totally discredited on the previous thread. Well, the lurkers are smarter than that. And all this about “so much time” spent criticizing. LOL, I spend about an hour a day. For the other 23, I’m very busy with other things. But not to these Mormon know it alls who know exactly what we do and can make up whatever they want so they can justify their own cognitive dissonance. The problem is, with people like FOF, there never will be anything a person can say that will change what he WANTS to believe about Mormonism. He has it all worked out, no matter what his leaders have taught. That is why Jesus said “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up on the last day.’ (John 6:44).
I learn something every day from people like you FOF. How ineffectual you are and how my arguments to the lurkers side by side with yours compel many of them to question the sheer ignorance of yours. Those people, will then go pick up a Bible and the Father will draw them to Christ. Stick around. You make it easy for them to see what Mormonism does to people and why they don’t need it and why the do need the real Christ of the Bible.
FoF,
You are good at what you do. What you do is dodge and twist, and do all you can to avoid understanding what it is we say. I liked your critical post above because that was you, not some sanitized version. I think we both learned a lot from that exchange– you enjoyed it, and I got to see what you really think. Its more productive that way when we are not holding back.
To demonstrate how you really do not understand our points, I am going to use this. Remember, this is a single example. Here it is: “Some of the similarities are not just superficial. Unless you think that believing in a Savior named Jesus Christ who lived 2,000 years ago in whom we must believe and whom we must follow is insignificant.”
A savior is just a name. Jesus Christ is just a name. That he lived 2,000 years ago means nothing. In whom we must believe does not tell us much; we still need to know what it is we are to believe about him. And in whom we must follow also means little unless we know what, precisely, we are to follow him for.
We’ve been through these points time and time again, which is why I have little interest in rehashing them now. You won’t accept what we have told you about these points and others, and still insist that this is enough to call our faiths similar. The similarities end there, and you know it. At least you should know it. If you don’t you are either obtuse or dishonest.
I am glad you see my portrayal of Jesus’ death and sacrifice as similar to me, as this demonstrates that your portrayal of how we Christians view it was radically wrong and distorted. And before you stop and say that this is a similarity, we have to state that Christ’s sacrifice was not a full sacrifice in your faith. Its because YOU have to do more to be fully saved; all we must do is believe. This is a HUGE difference.
Your words have little meaning until now. Your continued, willful or not, ignorance on these points is stark. You have been given the truth concerning the differences, and yet you continue to deny them. The truth, in and of itself, concerning the differences, by the way, does not mean one is correct and the other is not. The truth that these differences exist only means that the differences exist. Which of the options is true is what is ultimately being discussed, but your failure to admit they even exist makes having this discussion impossible. Part of me thinks that is your goal.
Its interesting to hear you dismiss my claim as wanting to spread the truth as a bogus claim. I am sorry you feel that way, but it is very far from the truth. I am here because I feel it worthwhile to point out to Mormons or people doubting Mormonism the truth on what Christianity is. It is certainly not to disparage people.
But when you and others come here telling me I am a liar and am out to embarrass them is something I am not going to stand for. When you argue with me, I am going to argue for my faith. Your passive aggressive approach will not work with me, either. Its clear to me that you have a different take on your faith than what has been said by your leaders, past and present. Its clear to me that you are no more than a partisan blogger with an axe to grind.
When I tell you that God wants you, I mean it. When I tell you that God loves you, I mean it. When I tell you that God offers a better way, I mean it. When I tell you it is the truth, I mean it. Let go of the prohibitions to him. If you have issues to work through or deeper issues with us, let’s do it. Part of that is to admit that the similarities you point out are superficial. Be honest, be a man of integrity and speak forthrightly.
FOF,
“I believe that a being named Jesus Christ lived 2,000 years ago and was the Son of God and my personal Savior. I believe that there is nothing I can do to save myself. I know that Christ is the only means of my salvation.”
On July 30 you said this to me:
“We save ourselves by choosing to repent and apply the atonement of Jesus Christ to our lives. And we perform vicarious ordinances for those who did not have the opportunity in this life so they can receive the blessings of the atonement of Christ.”
And this:
“We do have a role in salvation- we must repent and have faith.”
And this:
” By the way, how do interpret the Old Testament verse which says that “saviors shall come upon Mount Zion?”
So you believe that you can do nothing to save yourself, oh except repent, have faith, and you can be a savior for your brothers and sisters by paying tithing, keeping the word of wisdom, law of chastity, everything laid out in the temple interview so that you are worthy enough to get into the temple to do more works that will save others. You are so back and forth and wishy washy it’s hard to take you seriously.
Kate,
If FOF is right, and Mormons don’t need to do ANYTHING to save themselves, then why do they have temples? Isn’t that doing something to save someone? So, FOF doesn’t need to do anything to save himself, but all of those that he does vicarious work for, need someone to. He’s the exception to the rule. I wonder how he will get past all those angels that guard the gates, without the secret passwords and names that he got in the temple. The temple that he has to do absolutely NOTHING to get in to. Still, according to him, we should believe what he says, not what his leaders teach. Why am I not confident that he has anything right about Mormonism?
FYI,
Those “teasers” who got divorces included the likes of Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, Joseph F. Smith, (who physically abused the wife who divorced him) and most of the Twelve Apostles. And here is Young lying again about his “private affairs”. They had such a hard time settling Young’s estate after he died that it took years. Nothing was “kept separate”. Another lie by a Mormon “prophet”. And the “books” were NEVER “open” and they STILL are not “open”. What are they hiding? Look at Brigham Young and you will see the pattern.
These are things you will NEVER see the “Mormon Defenders” even try to explain. And try going to lds.com. Good luck with that.
Addendum:
Makes you wonder what Smith was doing with Levira’s mother in the Chicken Coop, doesn’t it? That would be the widow of his uncle Samuel H. Smith.
That is because some of us were once members of long standing, having served missions and went through the temple and actually read books written by Mormon leaders. We can’t learn anything from “defenders” like you, because you have nothing to add to the incredible amount of information critics have at their disposal.
It’s not that we can’t learn anything from you, (see my post above) it’s just that we are not buying into the Church Correlated version of events and doctrine that you espouse, which is far from the actual doctrines and history of the Church.
You confuse yourself. We don’t want to hear your made up version of Mormonism, we want to hear how you explain the parts of it you purposefully ignore.
FoF, I just realized there is an extra word in my post to you. My sentence stating that your words have little meaning until now should read “your words have little meaning now.”
They don’t. Sorry, but that’s the truth. Kate and Grindael do a great job of explaining, and showing, why.
And again, I want to call your attention to God– and how he wants you. He does. He wants all of you, and he wants you to leave everything behind, trust in him, and follow him. He does not want your money. He does not want your rituals. He wants you. It really is that simple.
MJP-
How in the world do I “dodge and twist and avoid understanding what it is that you say?” I have been open and honest. But you and grindael and others somehow know more about my faith than I do. The arrogance is astounding to me, to be honest.
The argument that because we disagree about the Trinity vs. Godhead or Christ being created vs. uncreated is very much like the following argument. A family is stranded in their burning home in the dead of night. All doors and windows are blocked, and there is no way out. A neighbor notices the fire and runs to the rescue. The courageous neighbor fights his way through the burning front door of the house, goes up stairs, and pulls the suffocating family out of the house and saves them all. In the process, he suffers injuries and ends up dying in the ICU the next day.
Your small-minded argument and that of our critics is no different than two of the children saved in that fire bickering about whether the neighbor actually went to the University of Texas or TCU in college. The one who insists the man went to TCU claims that because the other child believes he went to University of Texas, he has no basis on which to be grateful or believe the neighbor actually saved them. He insists that his sibling is grateful to the wrong neighbor. How stupid. How ridiculous.
It is the condescending, arrogant mental exercises that you guys feel so great about that gives you this false sense of rightness and self-righteousness. I believe you guys completely miss the mark in all of this. Mental and intellectual phenomena are more important to you than what Christ actually taught. Go through every statement He ever made and ask yourself what it is that He is asking and commanding us to do.
An example of you guys missing the mark is the sermon on the mount. In this sermon, Christ instructs us to love our neighbors, give alms to the poor in secret (not for attention), to pray in secret (not for attention), to forgive our debtors, to be pure in heart, to be peacemakers, to be a light to the world, to not lust after women, to be more righteous than the Pharisees, to not get angry with our brother, to love our enemies, to fast in secret (not like the hypocrites who do it for attention), to remove the beam in our eye before trying to remove the mote that is in our brother’s eye, etc. In essence, He is commanding us to practice true religion relying upon God, not man, for our reward. He is commanding us not to focus on the outward, attention-getting and praise-getting acts that are motivated by vanity and the desire to be lifted up as someone who is righteous, like the hypocrites and Pharisees. Instead, we are to humbly and quietly do good and obey God without expectation of reward from the world.
Now here is where so many of our critics get this wrong. One of the most common passages of scripture used to argue against the ordinances, commandments, and efforts of LDS to be good is found in Matthew 7, at the close of this sermon. Christ says:
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a crock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
Our critics try to use this passage to argue that it is unrighteous and arrogant to believe we must obey the commandments. But they rip this passage out of context and apparently don’t understand that Christ was actually commanding us to obey and follow and not do the hyper-religious, public acts that are motivated to acquire esteem and praise from others. So He was actually saying exactly opposite what the critics are suggesting. If we are wise, we will do what He commanded in that sermon, not do as the hypocrites and Pharisees who seek worldly glory and attention.
And this is the case with everything Christ said. He is after behavior and trust. His is a perfectly practical gospel that changes the world because it changes behavior from within. Certain behaviors are what characterize a follower of Christ. He never said anything about getting the history of His existence eons ago correct or else you will burn. He never said anything about not believing He and Lucifer were once brothers or you will die. Everything He said was directed at changing our behavior as we follow Him. He stated simply, “if ye love me, keep my commandments.”
I believe you guys are on the wrong train. And in this way, you are like the Pharisees- focusing on details that don’t ultimately effect salvation in the attempt to draw boundaries between groups of people. Ultimately, this is a self-seeking behavior and activity.
Grindael- you can’t even explain our fourth article of faith correctly. You know very little about our faith. You don’t understand our beliefs about the atonement- you think grace is limited to the resurrection according to our doctrine. I have shown you over and over that you are simply wrong. “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” 2 Timothy 3:7
LOL, it wasn’t ME explaining it, I was quoting YOUR “AUTHORITIES”. You surely can’t comprehend what you read, can you? Never learning because you refuse to comprehend the truth… See, I told you FOF would explain nothing. He never does. He won’t even address those quotes. And calling people “stupid” and “ridiculous” is NOT condescending? Sure thing, genius.
Where did Christ COMMAND baptism for the dead?
Where did Christ COMMAND tithing 10%?
Where did Christ COMMAND people abstain from selective foods?
Where did Christ COMMAND everyone has to be married?
Where did Christ COMMAND… you get the idea.
FOF will answer none of these.
You are dodging now. And you are engaged in the sort of passive aggressive nature I have accused you of.
Rather than engage in the discussions in front of you, you accuse us of being motivated for the wrong reasons. You call us small minded and self-seeking. You sling mud for the purpose of avoiding the issues put forward.
And in this new rant against us, you forget the Great Commission.
You miss this: “As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. ” (1 Tim 5:20). And this: “If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting…” (2 John 1:10). And this: “For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.” (2 Cor 11:13-14). And Christ’s own words: “Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?” And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. …” (Matthew 24: 1-11).
There are many, many more verses telling us to be aware of false prophets. We are not to sit idly by allowing people to think whatever they want about Jesus. No, we are to be wary of false prophets giving false messages. We are to call them out when they arise, and we are to preach the truth to them.
Now, God wants you to know him in a real and personal way. God wants you– all of you. He wants you to be humble, yes, and not to be bragging about what you do, but he wants you. He does not want your rituals, loudly proclaimed or not. He wants you.
Grindael-
Yeah. You took two sentences from Bruce R. McConkie out of context and tried to make it look like grace only applied to the resurrection. Maybe you were simply cutting and pasting an argument used by somebody else. But I provided the full statement which clearly stated that grace applied to both the resurrection and forgiveness of sins and salvation in the form of living with God in the Celestial Kingdom.
Your quotation was this: ““There will be a General Salvation for all in the sense in which that term is generally used, but salvation, meaning resurrection, is not exaltation” (Stephen L. Richards, Contributions of Joseph Smith, LDS tract, p.5).
“All men are saved by grace alone without any act on their part, meaning they are resurrected” (Bruce McConkie, What Mormons Think of Christ”, LDS tract, p.28).
The full statement from McConkie is ““Grace is simply the mercy, the love and the condescension of God has for his children, as a result of which he has ordained the plan of salvation so that they may have power to progress and become like him. . . All men are saved by grace alone without any act on their part, meaning that they are resurrected and become immortal because of the atoning sacrifice of Christ… In addition to this redemption from death, all men, by the grace of God, have the power to gain eternal life. This is called salvation by grace coupled with obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Hence Nephi was led to write “We labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”…
It is incredible that you still claim to not have been taking those two sentences out of context to misrepresent McConkie’s words. Unbelievable. He clearly goes on to state that eternal life is also gained through the grace of Christ and obedience to the gospel.
And somehow you confused the following, very clear statement form the First Presidency:
“Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of the Fall. All people who have ever lived on the earth and who ever will live on the earth will be resurrected and brought back into the presence of God to be judged (see 2 Nephi 2:5–10; Helaman 14:15–17). Through the Savior’s gift of mercy and redeeming grace, we will all receive the gift of immortality and live forever in glorified, resurrected bodies.
Although we are redeemed unconditionally from the universal effects of the Fall, we are accountable for our own sins. But we can be forgiven and cleansed from the stain of sin if we “apply the atoning blood of Christ” (Mosiah 4:2). We must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized for the remission of sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
Do you need me to break it down further? “We can be forgiven and cleansed from the stain of sin if we “apply the atoning blood of Christ.” How do we apply that atoning blood? By exercising “faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized for the remission of sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
So I ask again, Grindael, do you still insist that the grace of Christ is only effective through the resurrection according to our doctrine as you stated before?
FOF you sort of skipped over my comment. I have shown you to say one thing and then another. You speak out of both sides of your mouth. I don’t think you even know what you believe. Your last post was nothing but rambling. Where do you get this stuff? Instead of actually addressing comments to you, you go on some random mental wandering. Gridael has done nothing but post your prophet’s teachings and their own words which you say are wrong. It’s very plain for all here to see that you are the one who doesn’t know Mormonism, but guess what? You don’t need it. Please take Mike’s advice and exchange your prophets and the confusion of Mormonism and come to Christ.
Kate-
I didn’t respond to you. Sorry.
You are seeing a contradiction in my statements. But none exists. And this all gets back to the discussion a while back about salvation, faith, works, grace, etc. I do not do any of the work of my salvation. Christ does 100% of that work. But He commands me to obey Him and follow Him as His condition for receiving His grace. I know that seems contradictory to you. But it isn’t.
Without Christ’s atonement, there is absolutely nothing I could ever do to change my eternal damnation and separation from God. But because of His atoning sacrifice, I can be saved from death and sin. Salvation from death is unconditional. Salvation from sin is conditioned on my faith in Christ and my willingness to follow Him. It is truly puzzling to me that you guys don’t seem to understand how it works.
As I said above, if you choose to believe Grindael twisted arguments, you deserve those beliefs.
FOR,
This is exactly what grindael has said. You get a resurrection from Jesus but if you want the celestial kingdom you have to earn it. You are responsible for your own Salvation and your own sin. Remember, Salvation to a Christian is the same as exaltation to a Mormon. Can you gain exaltation by Jesus alone? No, you can’t.
What I see is Grindael saying you get a resurrection ( saved from death or the fall) from Jesus but if you want exaltation, the equivalent to Salvation in Christianity, then you are responsible for your own sin. Then I see you saying he’s wrong! The truth is, Jesus gives us resurrection from death and the fall but we are responsible for our own exaltation! Jesus gives everyone a resurrection but that’s it, the rest is up to you, did I get that right?
“Salvation from sin is conditioned on my faith in Christ and my willingness to follow Him. It is truly puzzling to me that you guys don’t seem to understand how it works.”
It’s not that we don’t understand this, it’s that we don’t believe it. Jesus died for our sins. He died for our sins. He died for our sins. Did that sink in? He did not put conditions on that, your prophets did. If you are responsible for your own sin, why did Jesus have to die? Why did he take on the sins of the world? There is much contradiction in your words. I’m amazed that YOU don’t see it.
Could you please show me from the Bible where Jesus “commands conditions to receive His Grace?”
I don’t understand how He could do 100% yet command conditions. Wouldn’t that mean that you are actually required to do a percentage yourself? That would mean Jesus was actually doing less than 100% right?
God’s Grace is a gift. Why would He give us such a beautiful gift and then turn around and command conditions for it? I have given gifts, but I would never command conditions of the recipients of those gifts. That is so crazy.
“But He commands me to obey Him and follow Him as His condition for receiving His grace.” Which, as I understand it, if you don’t do what you are supposed to do his grace does not apply.
Be honest. Be honest also in that only believe gets you so far in terms of salvation. It does not exalt you, which only gets you to a middle kingdom in heaven. So grace only takes you so far, right?
This is what I mean when I say that you are dishonest. You know these things, but you fail to lay them out to those who read here. Being fully saved is very different in Mormonism, but you take away that modifier of “fully”. Why? I don’t know– I assume it is either because you fail to see the distinction in being exalted and being saved, and what being saved means in our faith; or it is because you willingly exclude the modifier and are thus dishonest.
It does not have to be like this, faithoffathers. You can be honest and forthright and tell us everything that is relevant, and we will avoid much of the discussion. We’d be at a much better location to move forward in any discussion. But your obstinacy keeps us stuck in this circle.
And remember, God merely wants you. And you keep hearing the Christian message, but keep avoiding it like the plague. Its simple, and its beautiful. God wants you in his fold, and all it takes is faith. That’s it. There’s nothing more to it. You don’t have to do anything to become exalted in our faith. Yes, that takes control away from you, but that is ultimately the point.
Kate (and Grindael)-
It is very interesting to me that you guys are claiming that mankind is not accountable for sin. What a strange thing for a Christian to insist. Are you guys universalists?
Free salvation for everybody! No conditions!
That is awesome. Nobody is “accountable” for sins. How is it that you guys can call yourselves Christians?
Biblical passages wherein Christ gives conditions: Sure. I posted some earlier- “whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man.” And the rains were not able to destroy their house. Do you think the house builds itself? Do you think Christ actually meant something other than doing the “sayings” He articulated in the sermon on the mount which preceded this statement?
Or how about when He said, “Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance.” What are fruits? And what does it mean to “bring fruits meet for repentance?” Nothing?
or
“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
or
“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
After his vision of Christ, Paul told King Agrippa that he preached to the people and told them “that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.”
“Works meet for repentance.” What does that mean?
It certainly sounds like repentance and not perishing have conditions.
Your universal salvation doctrine is not true. We must repent. Repent. Repent. Repent. Has that sunk in yet?
Christians do good works, we follow and obey the commandments Jesus has given us. We do all of that out of our faith and love for Him. So the Sermon on the Mount fits us perfectly. We try to do those things for God, in private, not to gain approval from others but to serve God. We don’t live this way to earn anything or to climb higher on some ladder leading us to exaltation. We do it for God, we do it from our faith in, and belief in the One whom He sent. We do good works because they were laid out beforehand so that we may walk in them. Again, Christians do all of that. The difference is, we do it for God, to serve him, Mormons do it to earn one more rung on their ladder towards exaltation, they do it for themselves. It gets them something.
MJP-
Grace has a huge role in every degree and form of salvation, including exaltation and eternal life. I really am at a loss as to how you can believe these things about our doctrine if you really spend any time studying it.
Just because Christ has expectations of us does not mean we truly “earn” our exaltation or salvation. He is the “author and finisher of our faith.” From beginning to end, His grace is necessary for us to overcome sin and in every step of growth and development and salvation.
I am not dishonest. You simply do not know our doctrine. The problem I see is that you guys cannot reconcile the idea that something is expected of us but that those expectations are not what saves us. I have tried to explain this at length in other threads and don’t really want to do this again. You cannot provide anything from our canon or doctrine which states that grace is not a part of our salvation and exaltation. Sure, some of our apostles have used the word “earn” or “merit” to refer to the conditions Christ has established. But this is totally different from truly earning or meriting salvation and exaltation. We are saved by grace 100%. But we must have faith in Christ. And works and repentance are absolutely inherent in having faith. Without repentance and obeying, nobody can claim to have faith in Christ. Abraham’s faith was “perfected” or “completed” by his works.
You see how this goes folks. We rebut the fact that FOF can’t reconcile that his leaders say that they must earn their way to heaven while he says the opposite. Then we comment that if what FOF says is true (which is diametrically opposed to what his leaders say) then why does he have to perform works and obey regulations… instead of answering those specific things, (like where Christ commanded those specific Mormon works and regulations) he instead makes up something we supposedly said and then rebuts his own made up comment. He does this time after time. We are not talking about repentance here, we are talking about what EXACTLY Christ commanded. We still have no answers from FOF. We never will.
Where did Christ COMMAND baptism for the dead?
Where did Christ COMMAND tithing 10%?
Where did Christ COMMAND people abstain from selective foods?
Where did Christ COMMAND everyone has to be married?
Where did Christ COMMAND… you get the idea.
FOF will answer none of these. Remember, he said,
But He commands me to obey Him and follow Him as His condition for receiving His grace.
We are not speaking of this. This gets you a resurrection. It is AFTER THAT, that we are speaking of. Your Mormon leaders say that you must EARN your salvation after you have accepted Christ. Even if you don’t accept him, you STILL get a resurrection. What FOF says above is only a condition to get a resurrection. Thing is, it makes no difference in Mormonism. You can do the opposite and still get the resurrection. You must do all the Mormon works to get your salvation. That is NOT dependent on the Grace of Christ. Try again, FOF. Read slower, so you can comprehend. Where in the Bible did Christ command all of the Mormon works and regulations? Please enlighten us.
FoF:
Simple question: can you reach exaltation if you do not do your part?
Simple question: Logically, in your faith, if you do not do your part, can you reach exaltation?
Simple question: If you must do your part to reach exaltation, it is not Christ’s 100% free gift to reach exaltation, is it?
And you mean to tell me that your prophets use words like earn and merit, and that it is not what they mean? Who am I to believe– you, or your authoritative prophets?
Sorry, I get the ramifications of your doctrine. You don’t. You don’t see that logically, the requirement that you do your part is not 100% reliance on Christ’s grace. Its hoping that you’ve done enough to warrant his grace. Hope is not the same as reliance.
By the way, I love the addition of the very Christian words, faith, works and repentance here. Why don’t you tell everyone what you mean by those words? Why are faith, works, and repentance important in light of grace?
Now, as I have said, either you are dishonest, or you don’t get the conundrum you have presented. I can tell you all day long, but it is up to you to understand. I urge you to know that Jesus wants you. He wants you in his fold, in a real and personal way. I pray you see that, and that you understand what I mean. He is calling you, and I hope you respond.
Christians differ from Mormons because when we REPENT and accept Christ as our Saviour, our minds are renewed by the Holy Spirit to do good works. We do them naturally, led by the Holy Spirit. There is no laundry list of REGULATIONS. This is the difference between GRACE and WORKS. Grace lifts you out of yourself though the power of the Holy Spirit. Each person is given different gifts by the Spirit. We are not all drones that have to comply with listed regulations. That is what the law of Moses was all about. Jesus came and ended that. He died for us and took upon himself our sins. He requires nothing but our love. Mormon “prophets” have usurped the Holy Spirit and made the gospel of Jesus a gospel of regulations, because they say that the “saints” can’t live the higher law. You are trapped. If you live by the law, you die by the law. If you live by the Spirit, you are transformed by the renewing of your mind. There is only one High Priest and Mediator and that is Jesus Christ. We get revelation from the Holy Spirit, one of many gifts. That enables us to live our lives in the service of Christ. We can do NOTHING to earn it. We are LED by the Spirit to do good works, not COMPELLED by taskmasters at the head of a Corporation.
It is a worthless venture trying to engage you guys.
Grindael- your arguments are like those from a liberal politician insisting that conservatives want babies to starve and our rivers to be polluted. Repeat things enough times, somebody will believe you.
I have shown that you are wrong about our view of grace including the statements form our leaders. You cut them up and try to make them say what you want. Exaltation and eternal life comes from the grace of God as we obey His gospel. Grace is a huge part. And every statement you posted states that in its full form.
And as always, it is a subtle shift in argument you employ. Now I must show proof of the truthfulness of our beliefs? Hm. As I said before, I have no interest in changing the terms or trying to prove anything. You guys have everything in front of you that is needed. You reject the Book of Mormon and Gods modern servants. Your rejection of Christ and His servants cannot be placed upon anybody else’s shoulders but yours.
I was thinking last night about this rejection. In 3 Nephi it states:
“And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people; But behold the plates of Nephi do contain the more part of the things which he taught the people. And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.”
“And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them. And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.”
Someday, you will be confronted very clearly with the fact that the Book of Mormon is exactly what it claims to be. But in this state, the book will be taken from you and you will no longer have access to it. What a rotten place and terrible regret to experience, knowing you had ample opportunity to do as the book describes to determine for yourselves that it is true.
MJP- yeah. I have read the Book of Mormon over 80 times. I have read all the standard works many times and studied the gospel for 40 years. But you understand it and I don’t. And you go on public blogs like this and criticize other people and their faith because you love them. Sure.
FoF said
Sounds to me like you are saying, No point in being honest any saying what I/we as LDS believe, instead I/we should just say, we believe the same as you. Otherwise, If I am open about what I really believe, it will get criticized.
Fof F says :
” Exaltation and eternal life comes the grace of God AS we obey His Gospel. Grace is a huge part.”
By “His gospel” he means the ” restored ” gospel , which is said to be the rules, regulations, laws
advocated by the alleged church officers in Jesus’ church for these latter days—-Mormon
apostles. “gospel laws ” like men allowed to only marry white women , church ordinances like
polygamy and polandry and sealing men to men were “restored gospel ” truths by these men .
These have been dumped and more ” restored gospel laws” introduced such as no coffee
allowed . Thus Eternal life comes only AS Mormons obey the rules , regulations and laws that
is their “gospel ” . Grace is a “part” of this gospel ? That makes it something that Jesus never
would endorse —Rom 11:6
RickB,
Wrong. Go back and read my post.
I was not stating that I should not have explained our doctrine. I was saying that I should not have opened up and criticized your faith and religion. Criticizing others’ faith never changes a thing or produces faith. And we demonstrated that here on this thread. It had nothing to do with me opening up about my own religion. Wrong.
Sorry to disappoint. Funny how the critics will always interpret things and see things in a way that supports their dogmatic perspective.
I have been honest about my faith and the church’s doctrine at every point.
And I noticed that nobody has responded to my posts about Christ saying “whosoever doeth these sayings of mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man who buildeth his house upon a rock……”
You complain about me not responding, yet so few will really engage and respond to my points and arguments. Very lame.
FOF
You have actually shown nothing, by your own admission. You said, “I have no interest in changing the terms or trying to prove anything.” Of course you don’t because you can’t. You are the one who said, “Go through every statement He ever made and ask yourself what it is that He is asking and commanding us to do.” Well…
Where did Christ COMMAND baptism for the dead?
Where did Christ COMMAND tithing 10%?
Where did Christ COMMAND people abstain from selective foods?
Where did Christ COMMAND everyone has to be married?
Where did Christ COMMAND… you get the idea.
FoF will answer none of these, because he can’t. All he can do is whine. What is changing terms? Terms of what? Another FoF fantasy strawman. You can’t prove that they are God’s modern servants. They do nothing but sit in their church office buildings getting rich and pontificating to the poor. Concrete sepulchers full of dead men’s bones. I’m not impressed with your pseudepigraphal quotes FoF. They mean nothing. They are not real. As Jesus said to the Church,
I have found that Mormon “prophets” and “apostles” are false. They have proved themselves false. False prophecy, lies, greed, hatred, murder and despotism.
The only reality is Christ, but you have turned your back on him. You haven’t shown anything. I, on the other hand have PROVED that you are wrong. Here it is again Lurkers,
Where does the Bible say that Grace is a conditional gift? Nowhere. FoF gives this quote,
But doesn’t understand the last half of it. He refuses to acknowlege that in Mormonism Grace only gets you a resurrection and you are responsible for your own sins even though THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS:
FoF says that he must do NOTHING to be saved. NOTHING. But that is NOT what Mormonism teaches. Each person is ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR OWN SINS. This means what I said from the very beginning and to which FoF lyingly denied that the Atonement of Jesus ONLY nullifies the SIN OF ADAM and that because of it Everyone gets a resurrection. What do you think accountable FOR YOUR OWN SINS MEANS? I can’t believe anyone can be this ignorant. In Mormonism the unconditional part is where you accept Christ, repent, baptized & receive the Holy “Ghost”. But THIS STILL ONLY GETS YOU A RESURRECTION! Mormon leaders repeat this over and over again. FoF just can’t comprehend it. After this, YOU ARE ACCOUNTABLE FOR YOUR OWN SINS. This is not Grace.
IF YOU ARE ACCOUNTABLE FOR YOUR OWN SINS, THEN THE GRACE OF GOD IS NOT A GIFT YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.
That is what Paul stated, who was talking to the church who had already accepted Christ! “For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.” We reject Mormon “law” for Grace. FoF continues to ignore Paul over his “modern” taskmasters of regulations.
I’m not afraid of a fictional book. There was no Nephi, no Moroni, no Alma. There is not a shred of evidence to prove the Book of Mormon true. FoF knows this and it eats at him. It is a canker to his soul. That is why he lashes out here. He can’t stand the fact that we are telling the truth. I’ve proved what Mormonism teaches. I’ve shown what their leaders teach. FoF has done nothing and defiantly says that he has no interest in proving his faith. It isn’t, because he can’t. He is only here to argue and try and divide Christians. I told you all this from the beginning. He has proven me right.
cont.
Fof F said, ” You reject the Book of Mrmon and God’s modern servants . Your rejection of Christ
and His servants …..I was thinking last night of his rejection. In 3rd Nephi….”
False prophets who arise in these latter days try to convince people to accept them and their
particular gospel. One way they attempt to accomplish this is by trying to convince people
to equate rejecting them and their newly “restored” / reestablished ” gospel with rejecting
Jesus also. This scares people into submitting . No wonder Jesus pre warned everyone to be
watching for these latter days prophets and not be misled .
I was also thinking about how the Book of Mormon rightly describes something. In this case
being awake to spot men who try to teach their own ideas ( “precepts of men ” —2Nephi 28:14)
as being truth from God . Sounds like some of the “gospel truths ” introduced by Mormon
leaders ever since their alleged appointment by Jesus .
Fof F said, ” I have read the Book of Mormon over 80 times. I have read all the Standard works
many times and studied the gospel for 40 years .”
Keep up this reading , you’re in the same boat as many of the Jewish religious leaders .
They read the scriptures from front to back over and over and over again , and they still missed
the greatest truth —-Jn 5:39 . They were so busy striving to be worthy through their elaborate
system of laws ,rules regulations, that they missed the true way to God —Jn 2:19-22; 14:6 .
These highly educated and ever reading religious leaders added unnecessary rules about
the Sabbath, like how far people could walk, and so on . This behavior mirrors that of those
who claim to be Jesus’ “modern day” apostles and what they’ve done to the true gospel
of salvation ( Rom 1:16) . Paul spoke of those who would come preaching another gospel —-
Gal 1:8 . This warning finds fullfillment in the gospel which Mormon apostles have introduced
ever since they arrived on the scene .
The Mormon people deserve spiritual guides that are more trustworthy . We’re hear to help
steer them to Jesus who alone can be their temple recommend to enter God’s true house —
Jn 14:1-2
FoF said: “MJP- yeah. I have read the Book of Mormon over 80 times. I have read all the standard works many times and studied the gospel for 40 years. But you understand it and I don’t. And you go on public blogs like this and criticize other people and their faith because you love them. Sure.”
Yup. You got it. You really don’t see the logical inconsistencies in your presentation, do you? Maybe you are not dishonest, just blind. But you have been told the truths of our faith, and how they are different from yours, and you still continue to miss the boat.
(I know that you believe that you say that Jesus saves 100%, no matter what you do. But you still have to do it in order to be exalted, which, as others have said, is what being saved is to us. And because you have to do stuff to be saved in your faith, that precludes Jesus being 100% involved in your exaltation. Your exaltation may not be possible without Jesus, but making it possible is not the same as doing it all. And because you have to act, and because if you don’t act, you are responsible for those acts, not Jesus. And you can choose to act or not to act, therefore it is you who I doing the work, not Jesus. You can’t get around this logic, even if you don’t feel that way. Its logically impossible, and God is not contrary to logic.
I am sure you would not work this way in any other area of your life.)
And yes, I want you to see the truth. Should I not want you to see the truth? Should I not want you to come to God, who wants you? Should I not share the joy that I know comes from God? Should I just shut up, live in a bubble, watching those around me fall to false ideas? That does not sound like a very loving way to live, does it?
Look, God wants to know you in a real and personal way. He wants you to submit everything to him, not reserving anything to yourself, including your works. He wants you to trust in his full saving power. I know this idea is problematic, because you feel you owe him something. You don’t, and that is the beauty of his gift. Once you acknowledge this, you’ll experience peace like you have never experienced it before. Don’t trust me on this, trust God.
FOF,
I hope you take this the way I intend it to be received but you do sound a bit confused. You sound like you are trying to fit an LDS square peg into a Christian round hole.
You claim Christ’s death is your salvation. Can you tell me what you mean by salvation? I’ve found that much of the LDS jargon sounds just like Christian jargon but the words don’t mean the same things. This is why when my husband and I talked about what he believe during the dating period I really thought he was also a Christian. It wasn’t until my pastor told us he wouldn’t marry us because we would be “unequally” yolked that him and I started having more in depth discussions and realized there were some irreconcilable differences between the LDS church and Christianity. After extensive study of both churches, he left the LDS church. It took him a good two years to fully leave the church because he had been taught so many things that were completely backwards from what Christ teaches.. Him and I both would love for everyone we know to come to our same understanding. The LDS church is far off the path laid out for us by Christ. It seems like now more than ever the LDS are trying to “christianize” the church as much as possible. Using similar words with different meanings. Trying to force their square peg into a round hole. It’s hard for those of us who see the truth to stand by and watch without saying something. It’s hard not to become angry and passionate because it hurts. Many of us are either formerly LDS or have strong ties to the Church. People we love are being deceived. People on here try to be as gentle as possible but the reality is very harsh. The LDS church is not Christianity.
The Jesus Christ they speak of is different. Salvation is different. Heaven if different. Marriage is different. Probably most important of all, God is different, in nature and in purpose. These things are a big deal and I believe whole heartedly that your salvation is very much on the line. I think if you dug deeper and made your goal finding the truth instead of defending the Church you might come to some incredible and life changing knowledge. It won’t happen tho if your goal is defending the church. The church has pamphlets, talks, websites, that are all geared at keeping you from seeking the truth. They are masters of manipulation. Ive seen it happen many times. “Think of all the church has done for you” “your entire families exaltation is at stake!” “You will be cast to the outer darkness” “Pray for truth and understanding”.. My husband and I have heard it all. If your eyes aren’t on Christ, you’re only treading water.
Fof,
“And I noticed that nobody has responded to my posts about Christ saying “whosoever doeth these sayings of mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man who buildeth his house upon a rock……”
We have answered this. We Christians follow Jesus. His teachings and His commandments. We have built our house on the foundation of Jesus. We have told you this. I told you this yesterday. I was LDS too and I was also taught that the LDS were the only ones who follow Christ and His teachings and commandments. Those darn sinning Christians out drinking alcohol, smoking and engaging in promiscuity! I’ve heard it all too. Nothing could be further from the truth. How refreshing to see people actually doing good works and loving their neighbor from the pure love of Christ that flows through them. What a far cry from LDS who do it out of obligation and only because it’s expected of them by the church. There’s a different attitude. I have heard Mormons complain about how much tithing they paid after coming out of tithing settlement and how they could have bought a new car with that money. Do you think this is what Jesus wants? Jesus has set us free from regulations. He fulfilled the OT laws. Tell me, do you stone your neighbor to death when you see him not keeping the Sabbath? Why not? It’s an OT law. You aren’t keeping the whole law are you? The Bible says if we live by the law we die by the law and if we break even one law we have broken them all. So by not stoning your neighbor for breaking the Sabbath, you have broken every law. Of course you would have to stone everyone out on Saturdays because that is the Sabbath. You don’t even have the Sabbath right. Jesus freed us from all that. Joseph Smith has put you back under the law and under a curse .
Galatians 3:11-13
“For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”
“Funny how the critics will always interpret things and see things in a way that supports their dogmatic perspective”
Isn’t it, though? The thing is we can substitute the word ‘critic’ with ‘defender’ and still have a true statement.
Jesus wants you to come to him. He loves you, and he wants you. For God so loved the world that he sent his only son so that whoever believes in him shall have eternal life. John 3:16.
Kate,
Those sinning Christians? How about those sinning Ex-Mormons. I was perusing the Maxwell Institute Blog today to see recaps of the FAIR Conference and got to “SETH PAYNE, “WHY MORMONISM MATTERS: PASTORAL APOLOGETICS AND THE LDS DOUBTER”. The questions and answers were very interesting and Seth did a great job. But this one struck me:
Q: I think a lot of people who leave claim to do so because of intellectual reasons, but instead they leave because of unresolved sin.
This idea has been floated around for decades. I hear this all the time. Mormons get frustrated when those of us that leave ask them hard questions, and when they can’t answer them they start attacking your character. They simply can’t believe people leave for theological reasons. It is always for some perceived hostility towards a Bishop or other church member, or that they are only “sinners” who make up reasons to leave because they have done something horrible. It doesn’t help that Church Courts are like the Inquisition either. But Seth’s answer gives a little hope that they are getting away from this type of character assassination:
A: I don’t doubt there are some cases based in some sort of sin or problem with standards. In my experience, this is the exception to the rule. Nothing is more frustrating for a doubter than to be told they are sinners. Something wrong with you. That is not effective.
I have wrap up my comments on this thread with the following :
Mormons want to be called “christians” , and I think that if they point to the common Dictionary
definition of that term then I think they have a point . Trouble is , Mormon leaders have never
claimed to be just christians , just another christian church in the community , and they certainly
are’nt going to use a common Dictionary to explain to everyone just exactly who they claim to
be if pressed far enough . Mormon leaders have been quite vocal through the years belittling ,
castigating , and attacking the beliefs and churches of others by using very clear words .
Today’s leadership are most crafty in public interviews , though no doubt they believe similar
with their recent predecessors . So I think we can get distracted by concentrating on just the word
“christian” in dialogues with Mormons. I can choose to call Mormons , “heretical christians” or
“Mormon christians” if I have time to explain what I mean by that .This can be a great
opportunity to move into explaining exactly what Mormon leaders have claimed to be and
taught , and then compare that with , not the Dictionary , but with God’s Word . People ,( even
many rank and file Mormons ) need to know what Mormon leaders have taught about the
the churches and beliefs of others , it is’nt pretty if you get beyond the church P.R. dept .
So it’s great to have ministries like MRM available to give people information about Mormonism
that they will most likely never hear from Mormons they encounter or see on the slick t.v. and
print ads .
FoF, I am going to reply to what you said to me, But not in order so it will help you better understand me.
You said
First off, I just recently stated here on this blog, I work in a local restaurant, a co-worker quit because she moved to Texas, we are such a small place it is a 3 person Job, a cook, (Me) a baker, the women that left, and the 3rd person who does lots of other things. After the baker left, I was given a dollar raise and her position since I can bake as well as cook. Now we are done a cook, so me and my co-worker are working 6 days a week, 10-12 hour days, I get up at 4am and start work before 5am, then work til 3pm or later. I come home an sleep. I just got paid and had 40 hours of overtime on my check. This will go on till we hire someone, which hopefully will be this Tuesday. Then they will start in two weeks and need a week of training.
I am not dodging your questions, I am busy with work. Then I notice lots of replys to you answering you and your questions, so it seems again you are not being honest.
Now you said
You are wrong, we do not Criticize your faith, remember, I have said this many times, It was your false prophet that said of us first, supposedly our God spoke to your false prophet and said, everything we believe and all our churches are and abomination in His sight. So he threw the first stone if you will, we simply are defending ourselves.
Then it seems you dont know the Bible, Jesus said, you do err in your knowledge of scripture. So using your logic, when Jesus said they err, then he was criticizing what they believe. Also the Bible tells us we need to defend the faith, and we need to share with people that false prophets exist. For you to tell us otherwise shows your dont know your Bible and shows you are of the Devil.
Now you said
Your a funny guy, this is not true. Unless we flat out ask, you do not openly state what you believe, and what little you do share, still does not tell us everything, we seriously need to push you to get answers.
FoF said
Like Kate said, this has been answered before, but let me add to it. You guys look at the Bible and say, Jesus said, Keep my commandments and obey my laws, then you tell everyone we must do this,
But you guys never seem to clearly state exactly, what laws and commandments we must keep. It seems implied that it is the OT laws, but yet like Kate said, you guys cant even do it. Then if you guys read the bible as you claim, you would know two things.
1. The religious leaders as I have pointed out before, and you could swap religious leaders for Mormons, went to Jesus and said, What work(S) must we do to do the workS of God? Notice they make it plural, asking about many works.
What Did Jesus say? He said, their is only ONE WORK, This single work is to believe that God sent Him. Know why do you ignore this in favor of doing many works?
Lets also add, Jesus said, the law and the prophets are summed up in one word, LOVE. Jesus said, if we love the Lord our God and we love our neighbor they we are doing all His commandments. So you tell me, what are all these laws and commandments I must do, and tell me honestly, are you doing them all yourself perfectly. If not why not. Then tell me, Can I do as Jesus said and simply believe on Him and Love as He said. Will that be enough? If so, I dont need to do as you claim, if it is not enough, then Is Jesus wrong, If so, How and WHY. If not, then you are. Seems simple enough.
Grindael,
I clicked on the link and read through the Seth Payne part. I was smiling too myself thinking, ” This guy thinks he’s got all the doubters figured out.” Not once did he mention that that those of us who have left did it because we found the true an living Christ.
I was angry about the lies and cover ups. I should have known all about my religion and what I was actually putting my faith in. 75% of active LDS haven’t been through the temple so they are clueless as to what they are following. I remember arguing with my mother in the beginning of my doubting, I got frustrated and told her that I don’t need to know secret handshakes to get into Heaven, she literally laughed in my face. I had to tell her that is part of what goes on in the temple. I really don’t think she believes me. She will never get the truth of that from her leadership or other temple Mormons because we must not speak of it, it’s so darn sacred. So how does the leadership of the church justify keeping the non temple goers in the dark about many of the doctrines of their church? I guess ignorance is bliss for many.
The temple ceremony was much worse when I went through. Much worse than now. I couldn’t understand why I had to covenant to slit my own throat for talking about it. I looked for answers, but in 1978 there were none to be found. I simply put it aside. Then after my mission, I started doing a lot of research, which led me to Young’s revelation about Adam. That was it.
grindael,
I pushed my husband to go to the temple for years. I feel so bad about that now. It caused so much stress in our lives. I would go in for a bishop’s interview and be told how I needed to get him to the temple. I decided to go without him but was denied a temple recommend because both bishops I interviewed with said if I went alone, my husband would never go. I was “worthy” to get a recommend but couldn’t get one. I see now how that was a blessing in disguise. The temple is NOTHING like what I thought it was, and I guarantee that if I would have went, I would have left the church much sooner. My sister in law just went through a few years ago, she is in her 60’s and like me, she has wanted to go her whole life. After she went through I asked her how it went. She gave me a horrified look and said ” It was weirder than I thought.”. I knew exactly what she was talking about. I guess it would be weirder actually participating than watching in online 🙂
Ah, the temple… That’s a difference between our faiths. Its secrecy, I think, should make anyone think twice about the faith. Anything that promotes such secrecy should be subject to much closer examination.