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Thanks for sharing this Sharon, they were civil but look at how much more the LDS guy had to explain. At least he was honest about what he believes. I think the Christian guy standing next to him buried him with scripture and it didn’t take much.
I’m wondering how Mormons interpret Psalm 49:7? If no man can redeem his brother nor pay a ransom for him, isn’t baptism for the dead useless? Also why don’t all Mormon denominations practice it? Jesus just isn’t enough in Mormonism, He can’t Save/exalt without man doing some of the work for him (baptism for the dead).
I am going is Israel for the second time this year with my wife and members of my church and a few other church’s. So I sat and listened to a speaker yesterday trying to help us better understand Muslims.
After I heard this guy speak, I am all the more convinced the BoM inspired of Satan and NOT GOD. The speaker shared things the Muslims believe and they were pretty much the same as Mormons believe, Yet Islam has been around a lot longer than Mormonism. So Satan pretty much has just a few plays, and as King Solomon said, Their is nothing new under the sun.
The Guy said, Islam teaches the Bible is corrupt, Things are missing and it is translated wrong.
Mormons believe the same.
The speaker said, Islam teaches that if you read the Quran it is so truthful and beautiful you will know it is true, They so strongly believe this, that they will follow you around and read it out loud to you, believing if you hear them read it, you will convert.
How many Mormons have said, Just read the BoM and you will know it’s true? FoF said that.
Islam teaches a prophet needed to be sent by God to restore the truth to us.
Mormonism teaches thats why JS was sent.
These are just a few that I remember. But Funny how Islam and Mormonism have many false ideas in common.
I’ve always said that if you stick with a Mormon long enough, the truth will eventually begin to emerge regarding the significant difference in what they term the “restored gospel”.
At first it’s all, “Yea, we believe that too.”, but then it becomes apparent that no, we don’t believe that too.
Bottom line, no one gets to the big Mormon show without doing the temple dance.
Falcon,
As we both know, Mormons teach the temple is very important, so much so you cannot be saved if you dont go.
Yet show me from the Bible or the BoM where this is taught.
In the words of Homer Simson, Doh!!!
It is not in their.
The Mormon said, We are saved by grace PLUS WORKS.
Then he says, we dont need to do works to be saved,
Then he quotes James and says, we need to do works.
Will someone make up my mind, do we do works or not, If you guys dont know and cannot agree, stop getting mad at us when we claim Mormons teach things like Works, when you claim you dont, when in fact this mormon is claiming you do.
Again Homer is in my head going Doh!!!
Cna a mormon show me from the Bible where the God of the Bible is also the God of the Muslims, or the Buddist or any other religion? The Bible clearly denys that as well as the Muslim and other religions. Doh!!
Rick,
From what I can tell the Mormon says they are saved by grace and by belief, but the grace and belief only kick in when they work. The works are the proof that you believe such that Christ can then give us his grace. Its also his grace that allow us to work and earn our salvation.
To them, it is grace that gets us saved, not the works….
But the grace can’t do much concerning salvation until they work. But its really, really not the works that save– its the grace, even though the grace doesn’t kick in until the works are completed. Obedience through faith requires the works, they say.
You know, I’m beginning to see that Mormon faith is all about following. Obedience seems a big thing to them. Isn’t that cultist trait? Just thinking aloud now…
I posted a bunch of info by mormons claiming or defining what the (after all we can do) means. It shows and says the works that are needed. If you want I can repost it for you.
When a Mormon is asked if they are Saved by Grace they aren’t exactly lying by saying yes.
Mormons believe Grace will get everyone a resurrection, but only those who do the works of Mormonism will live in the presence of God. Remember, Saved to a Christian means something different to a Mormon. I think a better question for Mormons would be ” Are you exalted by Grace alone?” Then we would be comparing apples to apples. I don’t think any Mormon would answer yes to that question. This is where ” after all you can do” comes in.
Kate-
We are exalted by grace, entirely. But we must obey and follow Christ.
Our works do not save us. But we must do those works.
And here we go- faith vs. works. Over and over and over.
It is only by the grace of Christ that we are able to do anything good. As the Book of Mormon says, “every good gift cometh from Christ.”
FoF,
As I said in my post above, if you believe and don’t do, your belief is nothing in your faith.
So what good is the grace without the works?
I am sure the discussion will go on, but I really don’t mean to go off on this topic now. I just mean to portray the logic and the ultimate consequences of your faith as we see it– at least as how I see it. I see no need to expand– its absolutely clear that the grace for salvation is non-existent if you don’t do your works in your faith.
If you disagree, and can offer an argument or logic as to how I am in saying the saving grace is worthless without works, offer it. Otherwise, there’s no need for me to go on.
Hope you had a great weekend.
FOF,
And here we go again with “We Are Saved by Grace, BUT….. You know, Dr. Phil says when you add “but” after a sentence, you negate everything you just said and it is true. We are saved by grace, but….But what? Grace is either Grace or it isn’t. The truth is you aren’t being honest about Grace exalting you. You have to do works to be exalted. You have to do works to EARN your exaltation. You are lying. Grace will get us all a resurrection in Mormonism, only those who do the WORKS of Mormonism are exalted.
FOF,
“Our works do not save us. But we must do those works.”
Will you be exalted/Saved if you DON’T do those works?
Kate,
What an arrogant thing to accuse me of lying about my faith.
Is that really warranted? Is that not the easiest out from your perspective? Do you really think I am lying about this? What would the motivation be for me to lie? Do you really think receiving acceptance or anything like that is what I am after on a forum like this?
I don’t really think I have the motivation to go through and explain the concept behind this again- which is the only interpretation of this whole issue that fits in with all the Biblical passages on the topic.
Using your logic, grace isn’t really grace if you have to believe or do anything in order to obtain that grace. How is it that you cannot see that?
We learn our way to have, being saved by grace. We do not earn heaven. And how can a person learn something if he or she does not study and try to apply the lessons?
Your claim that grace only applies in our doctrine only in the resurrection is extremely uninformed. It is shocking that people whose knowledge of the most basic of our doctrines spend time on public forums making claims that we are lying, etc.
FOF,
“Using your logic, grace isn’t really grace if you have to believe or do anything in order to obtain that grace. How is it that you cannot see that?
I trust Jesus to fully Save me. It’s all Him. I put my whole life in His hands. I can do nothing. My works are as filthy rags. He only asks that we believe. We don’t need to complete a laundry list of works to be given the free gift of Grace. I believe and through my faith I receive His Grace, just as He promises. This is what He said, how is it you cannot see this?
I’m not the one taking an out. I was LDS and I know that Grace only applies after all we can do for ourselves. I know that in Mormonism it is a combination of Grace and works, just as the Mormon man in this video finally admitted.
I also asked you if you can be exalted without doing those works. It’s you who is taking an out on this. You know you cannot be exalted without doing the works, so saying you can be exalted by Grace alone is a lie. I think you know this, that’s why you complain about me saying you are lying instead of answering the question. It doesn’t matter though, it’s not that hard to figure out.
Make no mistake, in the SLC LDS sect of Mormonism you have to “earn it” period. A Mormon male is not going to make it to the big god show without doing a significant amount of work. This idea of “grace” within the LDS program is not the grace talked about in the Bible. What the LDS have is LDS grace that goes by a whole other definition.
Now is anything that this LDS individual talks about in the Bible? No! Because the Bible is not the standard reference point for Mormonism. The standard reference point is the D&C and maybe in some cases the BoM. With the latter it’s hard to determine because that tome changes the doctrine contained in the original.
So is what the SLC LDS bunch up to first century Christianity that needed to be restored because it was lost. No, again! Anyone can claim anything that want about something being lost but in order to have any credibility then, they need to provide some evidence that what they say was lost ever existed.
The ever changing SLC LDS gospel didn’t exist until Joseph Smith created it and melded in all sorts of ideas that he picked-up from the Free Masons and Swendborgism.
Mormonism takes many different forms today. I often ask, who then can claim the “restoration”.
Here’s one:
Like Joseph Smith, James Strang reported numerous visions, unearthed and translated allegedly ancient metal plates using the Urim and Thummim, and claimed to have restored long-lost spiritual knowledge to humankind. Like Smith, he presented witnesses to authenticate the records he claimed to have received.[31] Unlike Smith, however, Strang offered his plates to the public for examination. The non-Mormon Christopher Sholes–inventor of the typewriter and editor of a local newspaper–perused Strang’s “Voree Plates”, a minuscule brass chronicle Strang said he had been led to by a vision in 1845.[32] Sholes offered no opinion on Strang’s find, but described the would-be prophet as “honest and earnest” and opined that his followers ranked “among the most honest and intelligent men in the neighborhood.”[33] Strang published his translation of these plates as the “Voree Record,” purporting to be the last testament of one “Rajah Manchou of Vorito,” who had lived in the area centuries earlier and wished to leave a brief statement for posterity. While many scoffed, Strangites assert that two modern scholars have affirmed that the text on the plates appears to represent a genuine, albeit unknown, language.[34] This assertion has not been verified by independent sources, however. The Voree Plates disappeared around 1900, and their current whereabouts are unknown.[32]
Strang also claimed to have translated the “Plates of Laban” described in the Book of Mormon.[35] This translation was published in 1851 as the Book of the Law of the Lord, said to be the original Law given to Moses and mentioned in II Chronicles 34:14–15.[36] Greatly expanded and republished in 1856, this book served as the constitution for Strang’s spiritual kingdom on Beaver Island, and is still accepted as scripture by Strangites. One distinctive feature (besides its overtly monarchial tone) is its restoration of a “missing” commandment to the Decalogue: “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” Strang insisted that versions of the Decalogue found in Bibles used by other churches—including other Latter Day Saint churches—contain only nine commandments, not ten.[37]
FoF,
In all due respect, you really didn’t answer the question. Kate and I basically ask the same thing: what good is grace if we don’t work?
You seem to infer the answer that grace requires works, but don’t expressly state that. Earlier you said you may not always explain things in the most effective way. Perhaps that is true, but right here I do believe you are being sincere in your restatement of your faith. You really do believe that grace is what saves, and it is not inaccurate for you to say so. What is not defined, though, is how much we are saved through grace.
Before continuing, let me suggest that grace is a starting point. It’s really a starting point for both of us, but more so for you, I think. Grace is what allows us to get into the presence of God– to be saved. Grace is gaining favor from someone for no apparent reason. Grace is being forgiven for no apparent reason. Grace is getting something good that you should not get without strings attached. To us, grace means having our sins covered so that we can be viewed as clean in God’s eyes and enter into eternal life and gain a real and personal relationship with Him. To you, grace seems to mean God giving us the ability and the chance to begin the works set out for us so that we can become exalted—which requires doing everything God commands us to do and only there can we get the real and personal relationship with Him.
So, in a sense, I see how you can claim that grace is apart from works as grace in and of itself is freely given. However, I am not sure that you really understand our question, either. Understand that we define grace as essentially being gaining unwarranted favor. From a religious point of view, that must means that we cannot earn grace– because it is unwarranted. But to us, grace and salvation are essentially interchangeable. When we say we receive God’s grace, we often mean we are saved. When we say God extends His grace to everyone who believes, we mean he saves everyone who believes. Because of God’s grace, we are given eternal life and eternal life in a real and personal relationship with Him. To us, God’s grace is not just the opportunity to start earning our way up a ladder—it’s a way to the top of the ladder without having to climb it. To us, grace is both the starting point and the ending point.
Grace to you only seems to get you to the ladder and maybe helps up it. To you, it seems that grace is only the starting point to a process. Grace only gets you to the bottom rung or the starting line in your faith. It may be there to help you along the way, and the rest may not be possible without the grace. However, grace in and of itself will not take you to the top of the ladder; to get to the top of the ladder, you have to work. Stated another way, grace is a limited doctrine that does not complete the mission on its own—that is done only with effort, and very specific effort at that.
Do you have to earn grace? I see it as a possibility that you do not have to work for grace. But I also see that what grace gets us is very different. To us, grace gets us into heaven in full communion with God. To you, it is a bottom rung wherein you begin your journey upward to exaltation and full communion with God. To you, without doing works, your grace cannot bring you to full communion with God.
I can see how you get frustrated with us concerning this question. After all, in your faith grace is indeed a free gift, just like we say it is. We object because we view grace as getting us to the finish line, and you don’t seem to share that view. We view grace as getting God’s favor without having to do anything, and getting God’s favor includes entrance into heaven. Entrance into heaven means getting a real and personal relationship with God himself. You seem to view grace as merely a starting point to get the opportunity to work to achieve a real and person relationship with God in the highest heaven. To an LDS, grace might get one to heaven, but without doing more, the place where a real and personal relationship with God is not reachable. We see your faith as works-based because to us it is apparent that works and grace are inseparable to you– grace does not negate the works you require.
All of this leads to the conclusion that grace is not enough to reach heaven in the LDS faith. So, back to the question: what good is grace if we don’t work? See, even with grace, if one does not work, he or she will never be exalted.
I watched the video, and while I think it perhaps a bit unfair to have a 3 v 1 conversation, it was clear Craig, the LDS, was equivocating quite a bit. Its almost as if he was at least afraid to state publically that his faith is exclusive on a number of matters.
I saw a man there who seemed uncomfortable, at least publically, saying that others are wrong and excluded from reaching heaven, or more accurately achieving exaltation due to a lack of authority, not completing the required tasks, etc. Watching it, I was reminded of relativism, of reincarnation, and of simply wanting to feel good.
I wished the two Christian men, whose names I don’t remember, mentioned Romans 1:20 when talking about additional chances to reach heaven. Its now or never, and even those who have never heard the name Christ are without excuse.
MJP,
“I wished the two Christian men, whose names I don’t remember, mentioned Romans 1:20 when talking about additional chances to reach heaven. Its now or never, and even those who have never heard the name Christ are without excuse.”
This is where I get confused and have a hard time leaving the Mormon teaching behind. I like to think that those who have never heard of Jesus still have a chance at Salvation. I know the Bible says no one is without excuse, but I can’t seem to allow myself to believe that an all loving God would leave someone behind when that someone has never even heard of Him. I know Jesus says it’s through Him alone that we reach The Father, how does all of this work?
I am at my six post limit so if you answer me I will have to respond tomorrow, thanks!
Falcon,
I have thought about the different Mormon denominations and teachings lately. They all claim to have the restoration. Such differing opinions on Mormon leaders, doctrines, teachings and revelations. I would love for Aaron or this Dave guy to add a member of each Mormon denomination to one of these video interviews. That would be very interesting!
Kate, Here is my paraphrase, The Bible teaches all who never knew or heard the law, we assume people in places like dark holes in Africa or places out of reach like that, will be judged apart from the law. But they still have a conscience and know right from wrong.
My pastor years ago put it this way, a cannibal throws a person in the pot to cook and eat him. The cannibal at the very least has to think, I’m glad thats not me in that pot. Well that cannibal knows thats wrong, so he will be judged for the knowledge he/she has.
FoF, the difference between what we believe for grace, Saved alone, verse what LDS believe, Grace plus works is this.
If a serial killer or a person like Hitler cry’s out to God for mercy and receives Jesus even if they never get baptized and they die 5 minutes after believing, then they will go to heaven to be with Jesus for ever.
But someone like Mother Theresa, with all the good she did, If she never believed upon Jesus as Lord and Savior, then she will be lost for all of eternity.
It really is that simple.
MJP I know you saw this, since after I posted it you replied to someone, but here it is again, it is the LDS meaning of: what after all we can do means.:
‘After all we can do’ includes extending our best effort. ‘After all we can do’ includes living His commandments. ‘After all we can do’ includes loving our fellowmen and praying for those who regard us as their adversary. ‘After all we can do’ means clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and giving ‘succor [to] those who stand in need of [our] succor’ (Mosiah 4:15)—remembering that what we do unto one of the least of God’s children, we do unto Him. (See Matt. 25:34-40; D&C 42:38.) ‘After all we can do’ means leading chaste, clean, pure lives, being scrupulously honest in all our dealings and treating others the way we would want to be treated. (“After All We Can Do,” Christmas Devotional, Salt Lake City, Utah, Dec. 9, 1982; quoted in Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson.)” (“Savior accomplished atoning sacrifice through His grace,” LDS Church News, 02/03/96, page 14.)
“President Harold B. Lee treated the topic of working out one’s salvation in one of his books, Stand Ye in Holy Places: ‘We hear much from some persons of limited understanding about the possibility of one’s being saved by grace alone. But it requires the explanation of another prophet to understand the true doctrine of grace as he explained in these meaningful words: “For,” said this prophet, “we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” (2 Ne. 25:23.) Truly we are redeemed by the atoning blood of the Savior of the world, but only after each has done all he can to work out his own salvation.’”(“Work out salvation with fear and trembling,” LDS Church News, 09/14/91, page 14.)
“As is the case with all gospel principles, the doctrine of individual accountability grows out of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Teaching these principles, Nephi testified that we are saved by grace, but only “after all we can do.” (2 Nephi 25:23.) It is by the grace of Christ that we have granted to us the materials of life with which we can build, but God does not do the building for us. The responsibility of building with those materials is ours. The plan of salvation is in a large measure a do-it-yourself project” (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Seeking the Spirit, page 99.)
“In the plan of salvation God does for human beings only what they cannot do for themselves. Man must do all he can for himself. The doctrine is that we are saved by grace, ‘after all we can do’ (2 Ne. 25:23)” (Robert J. Matthews, A Bible! A Bible!, page 186.)
“To explain how much confidence we should have in God, were I using a term to suit myself, I should say implicit confidence. I have faith in my God, and that faith corresponds with the works I produce. I have no confidence in faith without works. My faith is, when we have done all we can, then the Lord is under obligation, and will not disappoint the faithful; he will perform the rest” (President Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, page 155.)
It seems that we tend to polarize what we see in each other. We see a person who says I am saved by grace alone and picture him not doing anything. We see a person who says I am saved by works and picture him working himself to death. Luthor, it is interesting to note, wanted to get rid of the Epistle of James because it did not fit with the doctrine of grace alone. In James it says Faith without works is dead.
It seems that people on this blog are compiling, researching and manipulating information in order to get people to see what is wrong with Mormonism. It also seems that you don’t realize that you are working at this goal. You have taken steps to move in this direction of trying to make someone see the way you see God. After all this labor in doing this you are still saved by grace. In doing this it is also keeping you out of trouble which may mean you are not going to hell.
In my opinion the Grace vs. Works debate doesn’t get you very far with the average Mormon. The reason being that it all comes down to what end. Yes, Mormons need works, they are trying to become Gods, with a big G. Christians are not trying to become Gods, they are trying to unite, live, commune with the true God but not BE an equivalent to God. So that is why I wish Mormons would just stop trying to say things like, ” we are like you.” The Mormon God is different, the path is different, the end is different. Its really not the same despite some overlapping vocabulary with differing definitions. When Christians talk of good works they are talking about loving works, sevice, prayer etc. Things that naturally flow from someone born again. Mormons are talking about passwords and religious rites. The problem is that only one path is right. And if you start from the source, which is Christ, you don’t get Mormonism, plain and simple. Mormons that want to be Mormon because they like the idea of being God, go right ahead, there are many religions out there to choose based on, “I like this the best.” But liking something doesnt make it good and doesn’t make it true. Feeling good inside doesn’t make it good or true. Sometimes the things that are good for us don’t feel good at all. Why would Christ relate cutting off limbs and removing eyes to getting rid of sin? Because sometimes it hurts to let go of our sins. And believing you can exalt yourself to godhood through earning grace is a sin. I used to believe it and when I got to know the True God, I felt ashamed of the audacity of such a belief. Please, LDS, find out the real Christ, the real God, the truth. Read what we KNOW is the words of Christ, the Bible. Study Jewish and early Christ history. Starting with the Book of Mormon to discern spiritual truth is backwards. MJP is right. Study Islam. Very similar system. I’d be interested in seeing a debate on why Mohammad wasn’t a prophet and Joseph Smith was. I think that would be a tough debate for a Mormon.
clyde,
I’d like a reference for your point about Luther wanting to deep six the Book of James.
The rest of your post makes no sense regarding people on this blog manipulating information. You’re going to also have to provide some examples of this or it’s just bearing false witness. Do you really want to have to carry that sin? It would definitely interfere with your quest to become a god.
Then you go on and say we don’t realize what we are doing. I don’t get that. As usual clyde, you appear quite confused.
Here’s what I think. I think you recognize that the people who post here, most of whom are former Mormons, are very accurate in what they report and are therefore very effective in bringing information to those who are on their way out of the LDS church.
Yes we definitely want those trapped in the LDS cult to see who God is as revealed in the Bible. This is not who the LDS members understand God to be. The LDS acknowledge that there are many gods and that men who follow the prescribed LDS system will become gods themselves.
So clyde, is what I just wrote about the LDS view of God inaccurate? You are given every opportunity to correct what we state in our posts. I don’t think you do a very good job of defending your position. In fact I don’t think you have a very complete understanding of Mormonism as taught by your particular sect.
Clyde6070-It seems that we tend to polarize what we see in each other. We see a person who says I am saved by grace alone and picture him not doing anything. We see a person who says I am saved by works and picture him working himself to death.
PR-there is certainly some validity to what you have said here, there is misunderstanding among believers, modern and ancient, regarding faith and works hence your reference to a portion of what James was expounding. But referencing back to the citations presented by Rick B what do you think about the statement that, “The plan of salvation is in a large measure a do-it-yourself project”?
In the same vein, in order to receive God’s grace, as explained in Moroni 10:32, we read these conditional stipulations,
“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.”
Have you denied yourself of all ungodliness? Do you love God with all your might, mind and strength?
“Brethren and Sisters, if you are true and faithful, the day will come when you will be chosen, called up, and anointed Kings and Queens, Priests and Priestesses, whereas you are now anointed only to become such.
The realization of these blessings depends upon your faithfulness.
Your Endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the House of the Lord,
which are necessary for you,
to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and the tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood,
and gain your eternal exaltation.
If you proceed and receive your full endowment, you will be required to take upon yourselves sacred obligations, the violation of which will bring upon you the judgment of God,….”
” …you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
This is taken from the Endowment (It has been around for 150 years.) Admit it!
Works are what the Mormons commit to in the Endowment.
Clyde,
Your argument against Luthor is disingenuous as James White points out. And who is “manipulating” information? Please cite examples, which you never seem to do. And the snide comments about how critics are doing some kind of “work” in rebuking those who call themselves fellow Christians is also disingenuous. This is a straw man of great magnitude. You cannot compare it with Mormon “work” regulations like tithing, the word of wisdom, temple marriage, priesthood callings, and a whole slew of other forced commandments that one must keep to earn their “exaltation”. There is simply no comparison. But you will probably not answer this with real hard evidence or any quotes, (manipulated or otherwise) but rather you will probably slink back off into the ether until the next time you feel the need to poke your head up and make another drive by opinion without any facts to back it up.
Grindael
You seem to me to have done well in polarizing which I was trying to point out. Manipulating wasn’t a good word to use. Compiling and organizing would probably have been a better choice of words. When I was in college doing research was work. You might not see it as work but I do.
Work regulations? Tithing-A lot of churches do it. word of wisdom- A lot of people do without to live better lives. Temple marriage-To be married to a person for not only the rest of their lives but also after is amazing. Priesthood callings-If I remember correctly You work with the salvation army. I see that as your own calling in life. You are learning of people and helping them and to me that is similar to a priesthood calling. I may be wrong and have you mistaken for somebody else but if you are helping others I wish you the best.
Both Christian & LDS believe that grace is a free gift from God; the difference comes when we look at how that grace is applied in the life of the believer. Perhaps I have it wrong but this is my understanding of the issues
First of all lets be clear on one thing, James epistle which is most often used by LDS to convert non believers to their way of thinking e.g. praying for wisdom & the need for doing good works, was written to address certain issues among CHRISTIANS, it was not written in order to convert non believers & should be read on that understanding.
When James says that he shows his faith by his works he isn’t saying that good works are the way to salvation, he is after all, speaking to Christians. What he is in effect saying is that he does good works because he accepted Gods free gift & became a new creation. The good works came AFTER he was saved, not before.
So, to put it in a nutshell, unlike the Christian whose good works result FROM BECOMING A NEW CREATION AFTER BEING SAVED THROUGH GODS GRACE, the Mormon does good works to show that he is WORTHY of GODS GRACE. In other words although he may say he believes in salvation through grace his words are nullified by the need to prove worthiness which is in itself A WORK. No matter how much spin may be put upon it that is NOT the salvation we find in the Bible.
If any more proof is needed then one only has to look at who can attend the weird ceremonies in the LDS Temple where the entire emphasis is on being WORTHY. Thankfully God never asked me to be worthy, He accepted me as I was & I did nothing except believe. (John 3:16)
My studies of being worthy to enter The Temple result in this portion of the Endowment: : “Brethren, you have been washed and pronounced clean, OR that through your FAITHFULNESS, you may BECOME clean from the blood and sins of this generation. ” The worthiness requirement is negated in the Temple and exchanged for a commitment towards becoming worthy. The Temple preparation classes stress earning acceptance and actually complying with the standards of worthiness but in reality being worthy is exchanged for faithfulness. The final judgment is given to the member not the priesthood authority counseling him. COMMITMENT+COMPLIANCE+OBEDIENCE = ACCEPTANCE
Kate,
I view that particular passage as a gesture of compassion from God. Rather than state that all who have never heard of Christ are going to hell, he tells us that they have an opportunity to know him regardless. That opportunity comes through his creation– the world around us, us as people, our relationships with others, our bodies, the stars in the sky, and down the line we go. God’s signature is on everything. From the scabs that develop on our bodies to keep us clean to the North Star placed such that we can know where we are; from the compassion we feel for other people to the laughter of a child. He can be known by everyone who lives on this earth. His creation is beautiful, and it is in this that he ultimately declares he is God. Seeing this is not limited to believers.
Hope that helps.
Rick– Some of those quotes are new to me, but I love them. I particularly like the one declaring our salvation a do-it-yourself project. Grace, from what I can tell concerning an LDS perspective, is a chance to get in the game. The project is not possible without grace, but grace does not complete the project on its own. Grace gets you to the project.
Perhaps I am wrong, and would welcome any correction on the matter. But they keep saying nothing is possible without grace, which comes through belief. However, they keep saying that works are still necessary even once you have believed. They won’t directly answer the question as to what good is grace without works, so I am left to come to my own conclusions on the matter.
Kate,
I relate to your feelings for those who never had a chance to hear the name of Christ. I agree with MJP on that God’s signature is on everything. Nature is what started my belief in God as a child and actually had a lot to do with why I decided to become Christian after concluding that Mormonism is false. So I believe that many things can bring one to the true Christian God, in nature and philosophy, etc. I found this one article I read awhile ago interesting. This is not scriptural but speculative. But the article states that we actually don’t know exactltly at one point someone dies. Is it when the brain loses acticvity, the heart, when every cell is dead…?. We just don’t know the exact moment of death, when the spirit departs. I have heard stories of people who never knew Christ but during a near death experience they felt that they were being lead to a dark place and they had to reach up and call out for God to save them, a God they didnt really know, and Christ was there to recieve them. I am not trying to spout off that any of this is true. I don’t know how true NDE’s are. I don’t know what happens when we are on the brink of death. My only point is that I think that there is a lot that happens as we die, spiritually speaking. I also think that God is merciful and loving and reaches out to us and gives us the chance to accept Him. But I leave that all in the power and will of God and I trust in Him that what he does will be good, because he is a good and loving God. That being said, I think it would be unwise for anyone to procrastinate this to their death bed and that is why missionary work is so important. We must take advantage of the time given us.
Kate-
It is funny to see our critics consistently claim that so few members of the church are active and know very little about our doctrine. Then, you insist that because you were once a member of the church, you know our doctrine inside and out. Funny to me.
You claimed in a previous post that we believe grace only applies to the resurrection. This is a very naive or dishonest claim.
Consider these Book of Mormon passages:
“Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.” 2 Nephi 2:8
“Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved. Wherefore, may God raise you from death by the power of the resurrection, and also from everlasting death by the power of the atonement, that ye may be received into the eternal kingdom of God, that ye may praise him through grace divine. Amen.” 2 Nephi 10:24-25
“Nevertheless, the Lord God showeth us our weakness that we may know that it is by his grace, and his great condescensions unto the children of men, that we have power to do these things.” Jacob 4:7
“And the priests were not to depend upon the people for their support; but for their labor they were to receive the grace of God, that they might wax strong in the Spirit, having the knowledge of God, that they might teach with power and authority from God.” Mosiah 8:26
“Yea, and all their priests and teachers should labor with their own hands for their support, in all cases save it were in sickness, or in much want; and doing these things, they did abound in the grace of God.” Mosiah 27:5
“I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.” Ether 12:27
“And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace, that they might have charity.” Ether 12:36
“And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith.” Moroni 6:4
“And now I, Mormon, speak unto you, my beloved brethren; and it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, and his holy will, because of the gift of his calling unto me, that I am permitted to speak unto you at this time.” Moroni 7:2
“I am mindful of you always in my prayers, continually praying unto God the Father in the name of his Holy Child, Jesus, that he, through his infinite goodness and grace, will keep you through the endurance of faith on his name to the end.” Moroni 8:3
“And may the grace of God the Father, whose throne is high in the heavens, and our Lord Jesus Christ, who sitteth on the right hand of his power, until all things shall become subject unto him, be, and abide with you forever. Amen.” Moroni 9:26
“And I would exhort you, my beloved brethren, that ye remember that every good gift cometh of Christ.” Moroni 10:18
“And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.” Moroni 10:33
What do you think it means to be the “author and finisher of [our] faith?”
How do you account for you claim when, according to the Book of Mormon, the following are the places where grace works:
1. A person is in the presence of God only by the Grace of the Messiah
2. It is only through grace that a person is saved
3. It is by the grace of Christ that persons are able to do good things.
4. Grace is necessary to have the Spirit of God
5. It is only through grace that a person’s weakness may be turned into strengths.
6. Mormon was only allowed to speak to the saints because of the grace of Christ
7. People are only able to “endure to the end” if they receive the grace of Christ
8. A person is only perfect as a result of the grace of Christ
9. Every good gift comes from Christ
The leaders of the church encourage, invite, and plead with members to read the Book of Mormon every day of their lives. So any claim that the book doesn’t really reflect our beliefs or has a real role in our faith is utterly ridiculous.
And according to the book, grace is at the core of everything good in our lives, including any good word we do, any strength we develop, and is involved in every step of our salvation.
If Christ is the author and perfector of our faith, what do we have to add to the story?
I ask not to be difficult, FoF, but because this idea runs contrary to Joseph Fielding McConkie’s do-yourself-project description.
Hay folks,
It’s obvious that Mormonism has a different god, a different Jesus, a different Holy Ghost and a different plan of salvation, and a different everlasting life, right? So when the LDS followers talk about these things in light of their religion they are accurate; but they don’t have the truth. They are involved in a false religious cult trying to masquerade as Christianity.
As Christians we follow the Bible and the revelation that God has made concerning Himself, mankind, our spiritual condition and how He has remedied the fact that we are separated from Him by our sin. That remedy comes through faith in Jesus and a transformed life that is an outward expression of an inward reality.
There is no proof that Mormonism existed until Joseph Smith invented it. Without Joseph Smith, there would be no Mormonism. So these LDS folks are putting their faith and trust in Joseph Smith.
I think that’s a really bad move.
BTW, I’ve asked countless times for our LDS friends to provide some proof that what their sect believes and practices is what the first century Church believed and practiced. I’m still waiting. I can provide ample evidence that what the first century Christian Church believed and practiced is what I follow today.
I just read the Bible and it informs me as to what I should believe and do.
MJP
You can’t be serious. Joseph Fielding McConkie is authoritative in what sense? And I do not believe you understand his point.
You are actually claiming that McConkie is more authoritative than the Book of Mormon? Wow.
We add only our acceptance of what God offers. And that acceptance includes following and obeying. But that following and obeying does not built our salvation. It is simply what we must do to accept that atoning sacrifice of Christ.
Does a son or daughter whose parents pays for piano lessons “earn” the money for those lessons by practicing the piano? No. He or she is merely showing gratitude for the sacrifice made by the parent and taking the opportunity for growth that is being offered them.
Same thing here. I really do not understand why you folks cannot understand this principle. I wonder whether it is on purpose to pain the old caricature.
“It is funny to see our critics consistently claim that so few members of the church are active and know very little about our doctrine. Then, you insist that because you were once a member of the church, you know our doctrine inside and out. Funny to me.”
I know more now than I ever did while LDS. However, this doctrine of works is one I had pounded into my head over and over. I was also taught that Christians believe they don’t have to do a thing and believe that they are free to sin all they want. They’re nothing but a bunch of sinners. Well guess what,? We are a bunch of sinners, that’s why we need a Savior. I hate to be the one to break it to every Mormon I know, but all Mormons are a bunch of sinners too. The difference is, we Christians fully accept God’s Grace, Mormons think they need to earn it with their own works.
“You claimed in a previous post that we believe grace only applies to the resurrection. This is a very naive or dishonest claim. ”
What I actually said was Grace gets us all (meaning everyone not just Mormons) a resurrection. The Mormon has to do works to be exalted. Remember, exalted is the same to a Mormon as Saved is to a Christian. Mormons can rightfully say that they are saved by grace , saved equals resurrected from death, they cannot however say they will live in th e presence of God for eternity without doing the Mormon works. Saved is one of those Christian words that Mormons have a completely different meaning for. Please don’t try to put words in my mouth. I also said for Mormons it’s a combination of Grace and works. Your last post to me was really unnecessary because I didn’t say what you think I did. My question still stands, can you be exalted without doing those works?
FoF,
The wow should go to you. First of all, you never really answer the question. You still haven’t. If you think you have, try again. Us simpletons don’t understand your convoluted answer if you have addressed how grace does us any good if we still have to work for it.
Second, go back and read the plethora of quotes provided by Rick. They all suggest that you have to work, on your own, for your salvation. Contrary to my sarcastic statement that we are simpletons, we are not dumb, and can read plain and simple truths in statements. In fact, Young states that God is under an obligation to pay us back for our works!
Third, I claim McConkie is interpreting all of your faith, not just the Book of Mormon. You’re trying to isolate the Book of Mormon from other sources of true doctrine. McConkie is not an idiot, either, though you make him out to be one. His attempts to describe your faith did not come out of a vacuum, as you make it seem. He said very plainly that salvation is a DIY project. He got that from somewhere, didn’t he?
Fourth, the child getting piano lessons will no longer receive lessons if the child does not practice. The parents will pull the child from lessons, not wanting to waste any money on it. So it is with God and your position on earning exaltation/salvation. If you don’t do what you are supposed to do, then you don’t get the benefits. So, its not entirely a situation of gratitude, is it?
Fifth, you keep saying that every good thing is from God, but what does that have to do with grace? Is grace not akin to salvation in your faith? Go back and read my post from yesterday at 4:11 pm and consider that I bring forth an observation that grace merely allows you to tart the climb, maybe some more, but it certainly does not bring you to the top. You have to reach the top on your own. I’m not being critical there at all– just stating what I see as your faith, and stating how our faith addresses what grace accomplishes.
You keep stating that we do not understand the principle of being grateful to what God has offered and working to show that gratitude. I think we get it. I just think we ask additional questions that you are not willing to ask. Consider this: if your grandfather gave you a million dollars telling you it is a 100% free gift and that any attempt to pay him back would be considered an offense to him, and you still tried to pay him back, what would he tell you?
MJP-
Trying to talk to the critics here is truly useless. It is as fruitless as any activity I know of.
You are all right. Your understanding our of doctrine is perfect. We are blind, thoughtless, ignorant fools who really should be taking the word of you wonderful people. You are obviously so brilliant and know so much. Forgive my unwillingness follow you people.
Your motives and methods are so clearly as pure as the driven snow.
“You are actually claiming that McConkie is more authoritative than the Book of Mormon? Wow.”
This statement would leave people to believe the Book of Mormon is the sole authority on scripture. A sola scriptura in a sense, which is not what Utah sect Mormons follows.
LDS people also don’t follow any sort of tradition as say the Catholic or Orthodox Christians follow. LDS Church has abandoned it’s tradition.
The LDS Church follows what their current prophet says. What the prophet says about how BofM should be interpreted, about what tradition should be kept or abandoned.
The LDS Church has metamorphic properties. Who knows what it could be like in 100 years? Before they were proud of their differences with Christianity, a position I respect more, it’s a tad more honest. Now it’s about fitting in.
The fact is the LDS Church is a false religion and that they will do and practice what they need to in order to retain and add membership.
So is the Book of Mormon more authoritative than it’s leaders? I’d say not. The leaders are the authority. How do they know? Because they say so. How do the members know that what they say is true? Because they say so? That or you got the warm and fuzzies.
So is McConkie the authority? No. Is the the Mormon scripture? No. Is Mormon Tradition? No. The authority is in the current leadership and how they determine scripture and tradition should be applied. So LDS can either blindly follow or they can look at some history and realize that the Mormon God is either fickle and unreliable or it’s just some men making it up as they go along.
MJP, Rick and Jaxi,
Thanks for the replies. Sometimes things come up and I realize I still have some Mormonism hiding in me. This topic will be my research topic for the week.
Falcon,
Your last post was spot on. It’s like comparing apples to oranges all the time. Joseph Smith and others changed so many definitions of Christian words that it’s hard to get Mormons to understand the Biblical message. I’m pretty sure that was Smith’s intent all along. Make the Bible untrustworthy so people will listen to my weirdness. Great post.
faithoffathers, you have ostensibly responded to MJP but you have completely mischaracterized what he said while not dealing with any of the points he raised and ignoring his question. Please respond to MJP in a way that reasonably engages his comments or don’t respond at all. If all you have to say is that conversation here at Mormon Coffee is fruitless, you have said it; perhaps your best course of action now would be to move on to other more fruitful endeavors.
“Trying to talk to the critics here is truly useless. It is as fruitless as any activity I know of..”
Yet you keep returning. Have you asked yourself why? Is GOD leading you here maybe?
I can see how frustrating it is for you. It’s hard to trust true Biblical teachings and the very words of Jesus himself when you are caught up in the Mormon lie. Open your heart and your mind, go out and buy a Bible not affiliated with the LDS church and ask God to reveal himself to you. You don’t need a religious system, you need God. God’s message is not that complicated.
We’re not right, the Bible is. God’s Word is. That’s why you have such a hard time defending Mormonism here. Your church has made record of everything LDS . From the beginning. You can’t change that. Your leaders are quoted over and over and it takes enormous amounts of energy and mental gymnastics for you guys to try and unsay what they clearly said. We’re not buying the explanations. We take your leaders at their word. I can’t help but wonder how differently you would see things if you would take them at their word too.
FoF, thanks for admitting that. I kid, of course. We are faulty, too. We are not perfect. I think you’d find that engaging in an honest and forthright debate without your own insults would help. I know some of the posters here are quite direct and have little patience. I appreciate what it is you go through, too. I have been the minority in discussions. Its tough.
However, throwing virtual temper tantrums like you just did only makes you like you are losing the argument and maybe worse.
We are not here to make you look a fool. We don’t want to disparage or embarrass anyone. But we do stand for what we see as the truth. This requires taking a strong stance and not giving in by suggesting we are all the same, or we will all have the same opportunity in the afterlife, or any other out. LDS are not the only ones with outs like that, by the way. The truth, though, is the truth, so why work around it? We stick to our guns, and if evidence and logic show we are wrong, we are open to change.
If you can show, using logic not tainted by the LDS, where our logic is wrong, please do so. I add the proviso concerning LDS logic because the truth is the truth no matter what the source is. Your logic should therefore conform with what and how others think. I understand that we will all view certain things differently based on our perspectives, but logic won’t. Logic is a series of inferences or assumptions put together to reach a conclusion. You’ve yet to logically show how your faith works to contradicts how we claim it works. All you’ve done is repeated oft heard Mormon platitudes about your faith. You’ve not stepped outside, or at least effectively step outside, your faith or your familiar language to communicate your points with us.
To say we don’t understand is not accurate. Its just that we don’t buy into what it is you say. For example, when you list verses from the BoM stating how grace is what saves, this logically necessitates that grace saves. Look at Moroni 10:33– without spot would infer that they are perfect. If they are perfect, why would they need to work? If they need to work, they are not perfect. So, we reject your claim that it is only grace that gets you into heaven because more than once, even today, you say you have to work. Today, you used the comparison of a child getting piano lessons practicing to show gratitude to his parents. I then suggested that if the child does not practice, the parents stop giving lessons, showing how and why I reject your premise.
I believe you were brought here for a reason. I don’t know what that reason is. But I do pray that you see that your faith has problems and honestly look at it from a different perspective. I suspect you will consider closing your eyes to all of these problems and using that as a reason to claim how strong your faith is, since faith is paramount in your life. If it feels good, it must be good, and all good things come from God to you.
But I pray that perhaps you have been challenged in a different way here. I hope you see that truth is the truth, no matter how it is presented. The truth can stand up to any logic. There is a different message out there that you do not understand yet. My prayer is that you begin to see this message for something you do not yet see. I pray that you are willing to ask God to help you see this message– even by way of challenge.
Here’s the problem for our LDS types.
As Christians we can read the New Testament and we know God’s plan of salvation. The LDS member can’t do that. They are really stuck with the two twin false premises of the disappearing gospel and the corrupted Bible. Without those claims they are dead in the water. You see there has to be a reason for a new gospel not to mention a new God.
Anyone who has a scintilla of knowledge of the Bible and is the least bit suspicious of claims of new gods and new gospels, wouldn’t listen to the LDS message for a moment.
The LDS program is replete with falsehoods and misdirection in order to keep a person from learning what the SLC LDS claims are all about.
In the video, the Mormon appears to be a very nice sort of guy. I would guess he probably is just that. But the problem he has, as do all the LDS folks who attempt to explain and defend Mormonism is that when you get to the second level of questioning, their religion falls apart.
To any LDS reading this I’d say, come to know Jesus in a personal way. Place your faith in Him and not some dead religious system that will use you up and spit you out.
FOF,
I was wondering the same thing that Kate said and also Sharon alluded to.
Why in the world do you keep coming around here posting if you find it so fruitless? You’d be much better off spending your time engaged in baptisms for the dead or other temple rituals that would make you feel that much better and also help you in your progression to becoming a god. Or why not family genealogy? There are numerous callings that would benefit your LDS church or perhaps you could get a second job and donate all of the money to the (church).
But, here’s the deal, whether you stay or whether you go, I will continue to pray for you as I do Alex, Shem and Ralph.
It really is sad that FoF claims the BoM is the Book to look to for the truth, and then claims Bruce Mc has no real say in anything. I have posted these before and will do it again as a result of what FoF said.
The Big question here is, who do I trust and why? When the LDS leaders cannot seem to agree with each other?
JS claims over in D and C 135:3-4 he has done more except Jesus has, well if this is the case why is it that the apostles like Paul, John, Peter and others have books of the Bible named after them and not Joseph? We read in the book of revelation that the names of the 12 apostles will be written on the gates of heaven but no where are any LDS apostles or prophets mentioned, strange how not even the super prophet JS is not mentioned if he ranks second to Jesus?
Now we read J Smith saying in the book History of the Church vol 4, pg 461. “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by it’s precepts, than any other book.”
Then over in the book, Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith on pg 71 we read, ” Take away the book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? we have none.”
Now lets look at what the prophet, Joseph Fielding Smith said. Notice Joseph Smith was the first “prophet” Joseph F Smith was the 10th “prophet/president” of the Church. So as not to confuse with the close names.
We read in the book,
Doctrines of Salvation vol 3, pg 198-199 J.F.S. teaches, ” In my judgment their is no book on earth yet come to man as important as the book known as the Doctrine and Covenants, with all due respect to the Book of Mormon, and the Bible, and the pearl of great price, which we say are our standards in Doctrine. The book of Doctrine and Covenants to us stands in a peculiar position above them all.
I am going to tell you why. When I say that, do not for a moment think I do not value the Book of Mormon, the Bible, and the Pearl of Great Price, just as much as any man that lives; I think I do. I do not know of anybody who has read them more, and I appreciate them; they are wonderful; they contain doctrine and revelation and commandments that we should heed; but the Bible is a history containing the doctrine and commandments given to the people anciently. that applies also to the Book of Mormon. It is the doctrine and history and commandments of the people who dwelt upon this continent anciently.
But this Doctrine and Covenants contains the word of God to those who dwell here now. It is our book. It belongs to the Latter Day Saints.
So we find here two prophets disagree on just how important the BoM really is?
Now lets add to this what Ezra Taft Benson taught. He taught the 14 fundamentals of following the brethren. This was the SECOND: The Living Prophet is More Vital to Us Than The Standard Works.
So now we have 3 people, all prophets teaching different things. This leads to another question, if D and C is over the book of Mormon, why do the Mormon missionary’s not pass that out? And if the Prophet is over all the 4 standard works, why bother passing them out at all? Why not pass out books of the prophets teachings?
It is hardly possible to build anything if frustration, bitterness and a mood of helplessness prevail. ~Lech Walesa (Founder of the Polish “Solidarity” Party).
That is your opinion, but you have given nothing to back it up. But “a lot of churches” don’t base people’s “worthiness” on paying tithing and make it a REQUIREMENT for “exaltation”. And thanks for agreeing that you were wrong in saying that we manipulate your leaders comments. What is work to one, may not be work to another. It is a very weak argument. And I volunteer when I can with the SA. I am not “called” and “required” to do certain things to “magnify my calling.” And I’m married and will be with my wife in the afterlife as we are both saved Christians. But whether or not I’m married it makes no difference as the Apostle Paul makes perfectly clear. The Mormon Church REQUIRES it for “exaltation”. Another forced regulation. See the difference?
RickB,
Joseph Fielding McConkie is not Bruce R. McConkie.
Let’s remember that Fof F has already cleared a huge hurdle by stating he believes that Jesus was
always God , that’s a big step because his leaders have stated otherwise . Now concerning this
whole works vrs grace thing , give him time and hopefully he’ll come to see the clear, simple N.T.
teaching on how a person receives eternal life . Keep praying for him .