This past summer I was in Nauvoo, Illinois to distribute Christian information and answer questions about my faith and how it differs from Mormonism. This I did each evening for a week, standing adjacent to the outdoor Nauvoo Pageant grounds as pageant-goers arrived to enjoy the night’s performance. The majority of people who attended the pageant were Mormons, or investigators flanked by Mormon missionaries.
As I offered my information to pageant-goers (along with a friendly “hello”), they would reach for the paper, and I would tell them that it was from the Nauvoo Christian Visitors Center. At this, many would pull back their hands, eyes wide, as if they had almost touched a hot stove. With eyes darting about, they would turn a shoulder toward me and hurry away.
Some folks at first didn’t register the fact that the paper was not Church-produced. When they saw the identifying Nauvoo Christian Visitors Center information on the paper and realized what they had in their hands, they would immediately, and with a posture of great alarm, look about for a trashcan to throw it away.
Certainly not everyone reacted this way. Some seemed genuinely pleased to receive the information, and a few folded and tucked the paper away so their fellow Mormons would not know they had it. Others would just walk by without a glance in my direction.
I admit that I, too, sometimes ignore people on the street who are trying to get information into my hands. I might be annoyed. I might be disgusted. But I can’t think of a time when I’ve been afraid of the information someone has offered; and fear is a reaction that I saw from a lot of Mormons in Nauvoo. Not merely disinterest. Not simply irritation. Fear.
The fear might stem from a member’s commitment to be obedient to Church leaders who tell them to stay away from people and information that are critical of Mormonism, or perhaps it is born out of an apprehension of having their faith challenged. Either way, I find it somewhat paradoxical.
Mormonism is founded on severe criticism of the Christian faith. Joseph Smith’s First Vision story is one of condemnation of Christian “creeds,” “professors,” and “doctrine” (Joseph Smith—History 1:19). The Book of Mormon criticizes and ridicules traditional Christianity, saying those who believe that the Bible is sufficient are “fools” (2 Nephi 29:6). The Book of Mormon denounces non-Mormon churches as “the Church of the devil…which is the mother of abominations; and…the whore of all the earth” (1 Nephi 14:10). For decades the Church has sponsored the Mormon Miracle Pageant in Manti, Utah in which Christian doctrines on the nature of God and eternal punishment are scorned, and Christian pastors are mocked.
The interesting thing is that the Mormon Church uses all of these things in its proselytizing efforts. It expects and encourages non-Mormons to read information critical of their own Christian faith, while yet encouraging Mormons to shun information that might be critical of Mormonism.
The Mormon Church tells its own members to “ignore…anti-Mormon literature” (Sermons and Writings of Bruce R. McConkie, 233), describing it as “theological pornography that is damaging to the spirit” (Vaughn J. Featherstone, “The Last Drop in the Chalice,” a BYU devotional given 9/24/85). The Church implies that material should be discarded if its claims do not “build a person’s faith and strengthen commitment [to Mormonism]. If what a person is claiming weakens faith in Christ or resolve to follow the leaders of the Church…it is not of God” (Ryan Morgenegg, “Five Ways to Detect and Avoid Doctrinal Deception,” Church News (online), 9/17/2013).
The paradox is that the progress of Mormonism depends on non-Mormons being willing and unafraid to have their own faith challenged. If everyone were afraid to look at (or were discouraged from looking at) materials critical of their faith, no one would read the Book of Mormon or allow Mormon missionaries to present the story of the foundation of the Restoration — Joseph Smith’s First Vision. If everyone dismissed out of hand anything that did not strengthen their resolve to follow their current church leaders and their commitment to the faith they already had, no one would convert to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Why should non-Mormons be encouraged to accept material critical of their faith while Mormons themselves are told to shun it?
I can imagine Mormons saying, “This is different. We have the truth and therefore have no need of examining criticisms of our faith.” If this is truly what Mormons believe, why are they so unwilling to examine critical materials in order to “correct those who are in opposition,” as the Bible instructs (2 Timothy 2:25)? Why do they “answer” questions with nothing more than an assertion that the question is but a clever trap? If Mormons have the truth, why are they so reluctant to confront criticisms, even if they believe (as they’ve been told) that critical material “uses lies or half-truths; it distorts, sensationalizes, or misinterprets Church teachings and history” (“Questions and Answers,” New Era, 7/07)? If Mormons really have the truth, surely they have answers to every lie.
Mormons, if you believe you really have the truth, why are you so afraid? Come — let us reason together. Let’s examine the truth – wherever it is found.
“One of the grand fundamental principles of ‘Mormonism’ is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may.” -Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 5:499
“Our doctrine and practice is, and I have made it mine through life—to receive truth no matter where it comes from.” –Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, 11
Years ago I was heavily involved in lay-pastor work in addition to my “real” job. One of the schools that I would visit on a regular basis had a teacher whose mother-in-law attended the church I was serving at the time. This woman (mother-in-law) played the piano for me and we got along famously. When I came to the school the daughter-in-law would greet me very warmly and talk about how much her mother enjoyed working with me. I noticed that the secretary, who was aware of my involvement in ministry, was somewhat cool to me. It all became clear one day when she told me her daughter attended BYU. BINGO!!
I was not only a Christian, but a Christian pastor. We know how the LDS maligned Christian pastors in one of their little dramas during a temple ritual. If I remember right, the Christian pastor in the drama, took money from Satan to preach. It was obvious why the woman saw me as someone to not get too friendly with.
There’s a built in resistance to Christians and the gospel of Jesus Christ among Mormons. They have been conditioned to see the “creeds” of Christianity, Christian pastors and Christian denominations as abominable. They see Joseph Smith as having “restored” the true gospel that was lost.
That’s why former Mormons have a real righteous anger directed at the LDS church and its leadership. What they learn is that contrary to what they had been taught, the gospel was never lost, there was no Mormonism in the first century church, and they had been kept away from a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ by the LDS church.
Fortunately for those of us who feel called to bring the gospel to Mormons, it’s the Holy Spirit who draws those appointed to eternal life, to the Father. God has seen fit to use us, with all of our imperfections to spread the Seed of the Word. We’re not responsible for doing some slick sales job and overcoming sales resistance or even fear on the part of Mormons. The Lord God comes through the light of truth shinning the way to salvation.
Listening to them discuss their faith in relation to others, it seems they are willing to concede they do not have the truth. I sense a very relativistic philosophy amongst Mormons when it comes to other faiths. They are always hesitant to criticize other faiths and are quick to say all faiths have some truth in them.
This idea will certainly be objected to by Mormons, but so be it.
I would respect them more if they stood up for what they believed (even the tough doctrines) rather equivocating on them.
I would say that Sharon is right in pointing out that not all of the Mormons she encountered were fearful. Mormons come in all shapes and sizes when it comes to Mormonism and I think a lot of it has to do where they are raised. And there are also the “arrogant true believers” who are so confident that they have the truth that they literally look down on those who do not share their devotion to the “one true church”. They certainly aren’t afraid. I saw a crew of missionaries walk into a restaurant one time and it was obvious who the hot shots were.
I enjoy Micah Wilder’s testimony of how he and his partner marched into the Baptist ministers office to bring him the true gospel. The man listened politely to Micah and when he had finished he asked if he could respond. Micah said that in the few minutes that it took, the minister totally destroyed what he, as a Mormon believed. Micah spent the last year of his mission reading the NT and came to the conclusion that Mormonism did not have the “true” gospel. He came to Christ.
Here’s a short, recent video of Micah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIsKyogVtio
Quick quibble: Featherstone’s talk was 9/24/85, not 8/24/85. [Thank you! The post has been corrected. -Sharon]
This sort of fear really is amazing. The other week, I ran into an interesting statement from 1840 from an old Mormon periodical, and the first part of it said: “…we would say to the Elders and all Saints every where, whenever and wherever you have or may see any thing printed in any book, pamphlet, paper, tract, or card, concerning us, or the religion we profess; whether it be for or against, in any part of Europe, read it carefully, and examine it candidly by the Spirit of the Lord, for truth will never lose by investigation; compare it with the word of God, by the assistance of the Holy Spirit, which giveth light; and whatever you find to be true, believe and practice – whatever you find to be false, reject…”.
Funny, why won’t those pageant-goers accept a Nauvoo Christian Visitors Center paper and “read it carefully” and “examine it candidly”?
Anecdotally, I can confirm this fear that we see many Mormons have. I was seated with a Christian friend outside my office as we pored over a catalog of Bibles for sale. She was trying to decide which features were most important to her. One of my coworkers who is an active Mormon and normally very talkative paused to say hello and ask what we were doing. I turned the catalog around and half-jokingly asked if she wanted to look too. When she saw it had to do with Bibles of other translations, she quickly backed away, stating she had one that was just fine, and left.
Since I left the LDS church, I have managed to give away three Bibles to LDS friends. One of those friends was nervous when I brought one to her but read a part with me that she said was her favorite story (Joseph in Egypt). She exclaimed how easy to understand it was (NIV) and wondered aloud why the church doesn’t offer something more modern. She seemed happy to keep it. At first it was like I was offering her illegal drugs. And sadly, a few months later, she gave it back to me. She explained in a note that she probably wouldn’t read it after all. (She had never taken it home because her husband would freak if he found it.)
I know when I transitioned out of the church the first Bible I bought was KJV because I was so brainwashed into thinking no translation was trustworthy, that all were corrupted. I ended up buying just about every English translation there was and scrupulously comparing them as I read.
Jardim,
Well I suppose we should stay with the KJV. After all, if it was good enough for the apostles, it should be good enough for us, right?
We had a short discussion recently on another thread regarding the label “cult” applied to Mormonism. I confessed that I’m one of the worst offenders when it comes to calling Mormonism, LDS brand, a cult. It does tend to turn off Mormons BUT, lets be realistic. What’s one of the main features of a cult type organization. Bingo if you said “fear”. It’s by fear that the members are controlled.
I’ve mentioned about how I left the Catholic church decades ago when I was in college. One of the things that helped me turn the corner was when I lost my fear. Unfortunately, I became a pagan and was so for several years. But I’m (afraid) that is the result of folks who are controlled and oppressed by religious fear. It’s just so liberating to get free from fear.
Do Mormons really believe they have the truth ? I would think 99% of them would answer yes.
Mormonism has some truth . Many of the moral principles consistent with being a member of
Jesus’ Body of believers are found in the teachings of Mormon leaders . However , the claim of
Mormonism is much more than that because it claims to be the very same church that Jesus had
established through His apostles in the first century —restored . Thus all other “christians ” are
a part of what constitutes the Devil’s church in these latter days .
Hopefully Mormons take the time from their busy lives to make a concerted effort to test their
prophets teachings with what the Bible teaches about God , Jesus , and what is required to be
accepted by God and receive eternal life in heaven with Him , until then they will merely
keep going along with what ever their leaders do fearing that to call into question the
decisions / doctrines these men introduce will place themselves on the road of personal
apostasy and incur God’s punishment .
For those Mormons who take to heart Jesus’ warning about counterfeit prophets arising in the
latter days , there is prudence in taking time to evaluate their leaders teaching track record .
Since the Bible has rightly been called, ” the bedrock of all Christianity ” , that is the right place
to start a evaluation of anyone who has come claiming to be a prophet for these latter days.
Sincere, decent , people can be misled by false prophets because not all false prophets look
and act like a Brian David Mitchell . Some are very polite, well dressed individuals who will
mention ” gospel principles ” . So common sense says : Beware .
I can understand Sharon’s perspective. She believes Mormonism is a false faith and is only trying to share the good news of the gospel as most Christians view it. But I can also understand how Mormons think. What if members of the Jewish faith were standing outside Christian churches presenting what they believe was evidence to the fact that Jesus is not the messiah… How would Christians react to this? What if these Jews picketed large Christian gatherings to testify to this fact? How would Christians feel? But she is right on one aspect. If Mormons want people to investigate their claims to truth then they should be willing to investigate what Christians want to share.
I can’t relate to this post. Though I do believe it to be an accurate description of many Mormons. When I was LDS I would accept Jehova Witness pamphlets. This one man helped me with groceries once and gave me a card that invited me to his Baptist Church. I accepted an invitation once from my neighbor to attend a Christian seminar. I signed my kids up for scouting done through a Catholic Church. I was never afraid of the information for a few reasons: I felt I was right, I wanted people to listen to me so I would listen to them, and it’s just interesting to know where people are coming from. Though, I suppose if I had reacted with fear than I would still be Mormon. So I have a hard time relating to Mormons that don’t look. I can’t understand them. Sometimes I question whether or not that really think they have truth; that maybe there is always that doubt under the surface that they can’t entertain or else maybe they might have to do something uncomfortable, like question their life.
This post also reminded me of when Uchdorf said, “Doubt your doubts.” Some Mormons I know took that as they should question their own thinking instead of the LDS Church. My very wise husband said when he heard that quote, “They should teach investigators that quote. “before you join us, you should doubt your doubts. Maybe you were right before and you shouldn’t have left wherever you were before.”
If everyone (no matter what faith/religion) took the advice the LDS Church gives than no one would ever change, everyone would just stay put, doubting doubts and rejecting outside information.
Inquisitor,
Depending on the situation, I’d probably stop and talk to those that were standing outside the church handing out literature. I drive my family nuts because if I see anyone who is “different”, I try and engage them in conversation.
Sharon didn’t mention the nuts who stand outside the pageant in Nauvoo and shout at the Mormons. These folks even shout at the Christians from the Center she mentioned. There were a couple of these small groups who even got into it with each other. The Mormons in charge of the event don’t even call the police or security opting to allow these fools to do what fools do; make fools of themselves. There is some residual benefit to the Mormons of course because they can feel all persecuted and reinforce certain stereotypes.
Falcon,
True, These people that yell at the Mormons outside their gathering places certainly does not help their agenda. It only reinforces the Mormons Beliefs.
I am reminded of the Westboro Baptist Church people. I certainly understand their point, but they shoot themselves in the foot and end up working against the very same things they hope to achieve.
Jaxi, I agree that the openness in accepting and learning about others is truly important, and one thing I find infuriating with many LDS– it seems they have a strong urge to make sure others are accurate in describing LDS belief but show little inclination to be accurate in their presentation of others’ beliefs.
If you are going to expect others to hold a line, you should hold that line, too.
Top contender for line of the day:
“………..it seems they have a strong urge to make sure others are accurate in describing LDS belief but show little inclination to be accurate in their presentation of others’ beliefs.”
BUT MJP…………………………
Do Mormons even have the slightest clue of what Mormonism teaches? First of all, there’s all kinds of different Mormon sects out there and depending on their enlightened ascending “prophet”, they may have a view that does not mesh with the other groups/sects.
Also, what I’ve found here in the years I’ve been participating on this blog, is that individual Mormons attach their own meaning to Mormon doctrine, beliefs and practices. Not only do they not understand basic Christian doctrine, they have little knowledge or understanding of the shifting sands of Mormon belief. That’s why it’s so necessary for a Mormon apologist to be a Mormon excuse maker.
Other than to examine the Christian doctrine of God, man and salvation, I’d tell Mormons to take a close look at the first four hundred years of Christian History and tell me if they can find any Mormonism in it. After all, isn’t Mormonism suppose to be a restoration of the original? You’d think there would be some record of it some where.
I have confidence in the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Word within which it is revealed. Mormons who read and study the Bible without their Mormon magic glasses, will find God’s revelation.
This is it basically. There is One God. He reveals Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. Man is separated from God by sin. God offers us eternal life through grace by faith in Jesus. End of story! There’s nothing to be added to it except an individual’s response which is to repent, receive God’s gift of eternal life through faith in Jesus and to bring forth fruit consistent with repentance and a regenerated spirit.
Inquisitor,
I want to reply to what you said about what if some other group(s) Like Jews for example told us Christians what we believe is wrong, how would we react?
Not sure if your a Mormon and even if you are not, I’m not sure what you know and dont know, so let me say this. Mormons to a degree are deceitful because they know things their church leaders and scriptures have taught and said and they never mention it and by not mentioning things, they lead people to believe something that if they gave all the facts, they would believe something different.
So I will provide a few examples and in addition to the examples I will add this.
Joseph Smith said, A man cannot be saved in Ignorance.
So now Inquisitor, lets say that verse from the D and C is really true, and since it is from the D and C it is viewed as scripture, would you agree with that?
So if it is Scripture, it seems their is a lot Mormons either really dont know, or they claim to not know but do. So if they dont know, then they are ignorant and cannot be saved, and many here believe we are trying to give LDS information that will save them. So LDS cannot claim we are in the wrong for sharing with them.
Now here are some examples of LDS knowing and not saying anything, or really not knowing, but then once they find out, they still dont care and dont want to hear what we have to say.
LDS prophets, Apostles and scriptures all say these things.
Mormon Scripture says
LDS prophet said
So Inquisitor, If the Mormons do know their Scriptures and Prophets said and taught this, they certainly do not openly admit to it, they would rather claim persecution and claim we are attacking them, yet if they really dont know about this stuff and we point it out to them, they still dont care.
If their prophets and Apostles said and taught this and really meant it, and we do it, then they really have no reason to get mad since we as non believing LDS are actually doing something their prophets and Apostles said to do.
I would also like to add, that the Book Of Mormon claims their are only two Churchs, The true Church and the Church of the Devil. If you ask an LDS who is the true church, they would say, it is the LDS church. So it stands to reason and logic if I’m not LDS, I’m not part of the true church, therefore I am part of the Church of the devil.
So even if the LDS are not so bold as to out right claim I am part of the church of the Devil, they believe it and therefore I should be able to defend myself and share with them.
Then along that lines, it was Joseph Smith who claimed My God spoke to Him and said all the Churchs are wrong and an abomination in His site and all the creeds are wrong. So if that is really true, then again, I should be able to share with LDS and say and back it up with evidence as to why I believe JS was wrong, and is spreading false information.
If LDS dont agree or dont like it, then please explain why?
Thanks for the honor today, Falcon. Your point is well taken, too. My bet on their view of Mormonism is that they are not taught historical doctrine. Why, I have to assume, would they bother on things that are irrelevant now? As if historical leaders have given very specific statements concerning some important matters that do not mesh with what the church wants to be today.
I agree that they should look at the first several hundred years of Christianity. The evidence to support a previously existing church that was lost is staggering low. But, as Shem told us earlier: he has no doubt Peter partook of temple rituals.
I rest in the same confidence as you: Jesus.
inquisitor, welcome . You made a good point about what would think of Jewish people
standing outside Christian churches/gatherings and presenting their message that Jesus
is not Messiah . Well, if they resorted to this I would hope they would do it in non-arrogant
manner etc . Myself , I would take the opportunity to engage them in dialogue , but that being
said I also think that this is not the best way to get people to listen to them if they exhibit
pushy behavior .
I sense that you have some experience with non-LDS who show up at General Conference with
signs attempting to get Mormons to listen to them or take their literature . Unfortunately there
are those that show up who can be very obnoxious , and as a result Mormons lump them in
with all non LDS who seek to publically inform the Mormon people of their leaders false
doctrines . It appears you have not succumbed to this type of reasoning . That’s good to hear .
MJP,
Some how I missed Shem’s declaration that he has confidence that Peter took part in temple rituals. What a dupe! I’m sorry but that’s the first thing that popped into my mind. How does he know this? Oh, I bet its been revealed to him.
Just think of all of things a person can have confidence in and believe by “knowing”. Let me just say, I have confidence that Peter did not participate in Free Mason rituals which Joseph Smith borrowed and applied to his new religion.
Falcon, I am pretty sure it was in the thread on whether the LDS is built on any man. I asked him to provide evidence after he stated he believe Peter performed these rituals, and that was his response. He then went on to state how little we know of what Peter did and did not do from the Bible. It ends up a matter of faith and hope on his part, because he has no direct knowledge or evidence of it.
I would love to ‘know’ so much more. It would make my job much easier by telling my bosses that I know something is true without having to back it up.
MJP said
Using Shems logic, anyone of us could go to the bank, claim we have a few million dollars and need no evidence to back it up. If only it were that easy.
And don’t forget:
“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.”
(Apostle J. Reuben Clark, J. Reuben Clark: The Church Years. Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Press, 1983, p. 24.)
Just think how great that would be to conjure “knowing” something and believe it’s true because you want it to be true. Anything can work to support your own desires to reinforce what you want to believe in.
I think we should go back to that line, what was it?
No Nephites, no Mormonism.
So these Mormons like Shem can create a total fantasy world for themselves and it’s especially true if it makes them feel good. Nephites every where!
This fits in to Sharon’s article because those Mormons feeling “fear”, would interpret that feeling how? But if the situation or thought or desire makes the Mormon feel a positive feeling then that means the Holy Ghost is in it. It’s true!!
I’ve taken enough Mormon tours to see how the whole point is to create certain positive emotions which then mean that God is supporting what ever is going on.
Stop and think of the mentality that drives Mormons like Shem. Believe something is true and it is. Create your own reality.
“We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” Unless….you want to leave the Mormon church and worship God outside of it. How hypocritical that the Mormon church can send out 50,000 missionaries to draw people out of their original “faiths” into their church, but if someone decides to leave the Mormon church because they are drawn to something else outside of it, they are now being “deceived.”
This strikes me as ironic when, according to Mormon doctrine, people who choose a relationship with Jesus will be with Him forever in the middle kingdom. How is that being deceived to be with Jesus forever? (Even though I don’t believe in the 3 kingdoms at all)
This is a painful, painful time for my family as we have (almost all) left the church; my husband, many years ago and myself within the last year. Our 16 year old son dropped seminary this year after the first two weeks because he couldn’t stand it anymore, but our 14 year old son is still enrolled. We feel as his parents that he will figure it out best by the comparison. It became blazingly clear to our older son that Jesus was absent in the Mormon church, which he discovered after giving his heart to the Lord at a Nic Vujicic event.
Much to my son’s dismay (the one still attending), his seminary teacher gave a lesson last week in which he declared that, “The Great and Abominable Church,” took the plain and precious things out of the Bible. As he told the class this sad lie, he held up the Bible and literally ripped pages out of it! I couldn’t help but think that he would never have done that to the BOM, but since the Bible can’t be trusted, it is fair, “unholy” game. So sad! But I am so glad my son was sitting there being exposed to the absolute prideful, shameful and hurtful ideas that were expressed that day. I did ask him how much longer he thought he could put up with it?
My only hope for all of my LDS friends and family is that I know how they feel- worried and sad about us. I too would have fasted and prayed for my friends making the same decision. God in his great mercy took the scales from my eyes and connected all the little dots for me that He had placed in my mind and heart over the 41 years I spent in Mormonism. Now many of my extended family are questioning things. Everything is so clear standing on the outside looking in and I am so FREE in CHRIST!!
merrick, thanks for sharing ! God is doing a wonderful thing in your family . It is a difficult
time for some of them in transition out of a counterfeit , so we’ll be praying for them as well
as those in your extended family that they also may trade the religion of Joseph Smith for a
saving relationship with Jesus Christ .
merrick,
More and more former Mormons are showing up here and let me tell you it gives folks like me great encouragement. Thank you for sharing your, and your family’s, experiences with us. It really brings the current state of affairs in the LDS church to life for us. I must say, the lies that are perpetuated by this cult (sorry) really infuriate me. The whole program is built on a series of lies; the gospel was lost and the Bible was corrupted are two of the biggest foundational lies.
……………..and getting back to Shem and his personal conviction that Peter practiced Mormon rituals in Christian temples; this is Mormonism. That is, just speculate, feel good about it and then declare a “knowing” which becomes personal truth. It reminds me of that quote from a BYU professor, “In Mormonism you can believe anything you want. You just can’t teach it.”
There’s a reason why there are all of these self-proclaimed Mormon prophets running up and down Happy Valley starting their own sect of Mormonism.
It’s amazing what revelation can do when you don’t have to have any sort of evidence to support a claim. That’s why people get hooked into the program by getting a good feeling about the BoM when there is absolutely no evidence that Smith’s creation has any basis in fact; that it is an actual history of an actual people who lived on the North American continent.
No wonder fear is one of the basic tools used by the LDS church to keep people marching in line.
vikingz2000,
That quote you cited from J. Reuben Clark is something that Mormon leaders have stated
every now and then , but how would someone do a proper investigation of Mormonism ?
It seems to me that a non-LDS would be unable to accomplish this . Some examples :
How would a non-LDS investigate the temple endowment ceremony when they are denied
access to the temple ? Mormons have long maintained that what goes on in the temple is not
secret , but if it was’nt for ex-LDS ( and the Internet) exposing what goes on in the temple
endowment we still would’nt be able to know .
– Can even Mormons know how much financial assistance ( “salary” ) their top leaders receive?
Can they investigate this and receive actual full documentation ?
– What about the historical documents leaders keep sequestered in church archives or in the
First Presideny’s vault , can we see these ?
I don’t know exactly what Mormon leaders like Mr. Clark actually mean by ” investigate ” but
it sure won’t go very far in looking into some very important areas in Mormonism .
merrick, I’m happy for you and hopeful for the ones you love. Hang in there.
While on my mission I saw plenty of this not accepting or wanting to look into another religion – ie the LDS religion. People said they wouldn’t accept a BoM or other pamphlets from us as they had what they wanted – we sometimes asked them if God came down and told them to take it and that it was true would they accept it and they said ‘No, they were happy with what they had’; others accepted but looked around to make sure people weren’t looking at them and then hiding it in their bags as quickly as possible; while some literally saw us and walked across the road on purpose to keep away from us. It happens in all religions, not just the LDS church and to make it as the premise of this post that it is just or mainly the LDS church that does this is very misleading. I have heard preachers tell their congregation to not accept or read any LDS paraphernalia; one even told a person that had accepted the BoM from me to not read it but burn it. Why are they doing this if you say they should be accepting and reading it? Why is Falcon too scared to read the BoM and do proper research into it instead of taking another person’s point of view? As I said – this happens in all religions not just the LDS.
Merrick said –
I can’t remember how many times I have heard on this site that I am being “deceived”. So what is the difference in the LDS church saying it and the people on this site, and other anti-LDS sites saying it? Nothing, we all stick up for what we believe in and anything else is being “deceived”.
The people who go to the second kingdom will not be with Jesus forever, He will visit them on occasion from the Celestial Kingdom where He will reside with Heavenly Father. But the ultimate goal in this life is to be with Heavenly Father and Jesus, not just be visited by Jesus now and again, so no one is being deceived unless you are telling yourself something different like what you wrote above.
The church does not condone tearing up Bibles in any of their literature/manuals. What has happened here is a teacher is acting out their own course. If I was that teacher’s bishop and heard about this I would have a serious discussion with that person. The Bible is a holy book and many sacrificed their lives to keep it in existence, thus it should not be treated in such a manner.
As far as what you wrote being a lie, that people have corrupted the Bible – there are at least 3 known insertions into the Bible (ie added text that is not in the oldest manuscripts they have found). One of which was the topic of a post a couple of years ago on this forum – the Johannine Comma. Another, of removed from the Bible, removes a critical scripture for the LDS members about baptism being a necessity – the last half of Mark 16. The story about the adulteress is another which has been written in to the Bible. Things like these can be found on the internet. The Bible is corrupted, and many on this site agree with that – but they say that the actual doctrine within it is not, that these corruptions do not detract from the doctrine, just the stories and non-essential parts.
I have to agree in one aspect to Ralph’s remarks. Many of all faiths seem to fear differing beliefs. We should be willing to investigate differing beliefs and not be to quick to throw stones. I see both strengths and weeknesses in both the Mormon/Christian debate. I don’t think anyone has the corner on all truth. If the bible was such a clear cut instruction manual from God then we would not have so many various Christian denominations. Christians get so upset with the “abhorrent” beliefs/practices of the mormon faith …. Especially with early mormon teachings… yet they seem to overlook a lot of the seemingly “abhorrent” things God did in the bible.
Well Ralph,
Welcome back again. It’s always encouraging when you return because it tells me you are continuing to seek the truth of who God is and what He has done with us through Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior. I continue to have hope that as long as you keep coming back, God will change your heart and bring you to an understanding of who He is and what He has done for you and also your family…………who I am concerned about.
Let me focus on what you said about the Bible. You wrote:
“Things like this can be found on the internet.”
Well that’s reassuring! Then we know it has to be true if it’s found on the internet. Are there things about the BoM and Mormonism that can be found on the internet that you would claim are not true? I just couldn’t pass that jab up Ralph.
So you think the Bible is corrupted? Haven’t we been down that road with you often enough? Let me ask you Ralph, when you contend that the Bible is corrupted would you say that the original Gospel message has been lost because of what you claim has been added? Look into that because that’s what your church is claiming. That is, the original gospel that God revealed in His Word was lost because of a corrupted Biblical text.
It’s true, as Christians we claim inerrancy for the original autographs, not the copies. But we know through comparing the copies of our best manuscripts and the other writings available, that any inconsistencies are miniscule. Again, it doesn’t effect any of the basic doctrines of Christianity.
If you have some evidence that what was left out of the Bible was that there are millions perhaps billions of gods in the universe all of who were once sinful men but who, through obedience to the Mormon system became gods, I’d be more than willing to examine what you present.
The fact is Ralph, you have no excuse for rejecting what is presented in the Bible and seeking after a false prophet in Joseph Smith and the ever changing gospel that is proclaimed by the LDS church.
BTW, have there been changes in the BoM that have directly effected Mormon doctrine. I’m just wondering because I read that on the internet.
Hey Ralph,
I tend to agree with you that there are lots of Christians that are afraid to look at the claims of other religions for fear of what they will find. For Christians this is a silly unwarranted fear, sort of like the fear I have of flying. Once you take the time to investigate the true Gospel of Christ will always be proven true.
On the other hand it seems to me that when it comes to Mormons the fear of the facts is understandable and justified. As far as I can tell the entire edifice of the LDS religion is based on nothing more than the subjective feelings of it’s adherents. Such a system is in constant real danger from an actual examination of the evidence.
you said,
As far as what you wrote being a lie, that people have corrupted the Bible – there are at least 3 known insertions into the Bible (ie added text that is not in the oldest manuscripts they have found).
I say,
That is just one of the many differences between the Bible and the BOM. when it comes to the Bible there are thousands of early manuscripts some very close to the original in age and more are being discovered all the time. These manuscripts are spread all over the ancient world and have never been in the control of any one individual of organization.
When men try to change the text of the Bible like JS did with his “translation” we can easily discover it just by comparing what they add to these manuscripts. That is how we discovered the very minor things you mentioned.
However when it comes to scriptural pretenders like the BOM or the Qur’an this sort of thing is impossible because there are no manuscripts available with which to compare and instead we are forced to blindly put our trust in the very men and organizations that have the most to gain by counterfeiting Gods revelation.
As is the case with so much else pertaining to the religion it’s quite the pickle the Mormon is in here. Is it any wonder they are often afraid to look at the evidence.
peace
peace
Inquisitor
you say,
If the bible was such a clear cut instruction manual from God then we would not have so many various Christian denominations.
I say,
Because men fall short of the glory of God. We are sinful, prideful and willfully ignorant. We don’t want to do what God says and use any excuse we can think of to not follow the “instruction manual”.
We are born lawyers twisting language to the point that a past president could say with a strait face “it depends on what the definition of is is” in order to hide his indiscretion. When men posses lawerly skills like that to use in the service of our rebellion it is a miracle that there are not more denominations.
You say,
Christians get so upset with the “abhorrent” beliefs/practices of the mormon faith …. Especially with early mormon teachings… yet they seem to overlook a lot of the seemingly “abhorrent” things God did in the bible.
I say,
I honestly know of no “abhorrent” things God has ever did, in the Bible or anywhere else.
Please provide some examples here along with the objective standard you use to judge them to be “abhorrent”.
peace
Look Folks,
Ralph knows better. We’ve been down this trail with him numerous times.
The bottom line, and Ralph knows it, the Bible reliably reveals who God is and what His plan of salvation entails. Ralph also knows that it’s total fantasy that Mormonism was removed from the Bible because, as he knows also, there was no Mormonism in the first century. It’s like saying that all information about aliens in UFOs appearing to the apostles was taken out of the Bible.
Mormons seem to think that they can claim anything and it’s our task to prove what they claim isn’t true rather than them prove their claims are true.
Another thing that Ralph knows is that when the LDS church claims that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity was invented by a “council”, that the LDS church is flat out lying. I bring this up to point out that Ralph has an emotional attachment to the LDS church and spiritual experiences he thinks he has had so he just ignores facts not consistent with what he desires to believe. This is typical of a TBM.
I’m sure every former Mormon who posts here has had to confront the LDS lies about the Bible and the Christian doctrine of the nature of God. Through the witness and ministry of the Holy Spirit those who have left Mormonism, saw the light of the Gospel and in so doing have come to a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. We can only hope that God, in His sovereign will, will do the same for Ralph.
Inquisitor,
Why do you think there are so many sects of Mormonism?
If these Mormon prophets could be trusted, don’t you think that they would have the truth? The FLDS say that the LDS church went down the wrong path when they stopped practicing polygamy. The Temple Lot folks say that Joseph Smith went down the wrong path when he tore up the Book of Commandments, went with the D&C and changed the structure of the leadership in the Mormon church. The Community of Christ, who had as their prophet Joseph Smith’s son, hold fast to Mormonism as originally “revealed”.
And just to put some frosting on the cake, why does the LDS church reject prophet Brigham Young’s doctrine of Adam-god? The FLDS do not (reject Young’s doctrine).
Here’s something to consider and I’ll post the list if you like. There are a basic set of foundational beliefs that all orthodox Christian denominations believe. When people, who have received Jesus as their Lord and Savior and who belong to the Church the Mystical Body of Christ gather in the Holy Spirit, the denominational distinctives pretty much evaporate.
Fifth Monarchy man,
Nothing disturbing in the bible????
Here are just a few “disturbing” passages.
Isaiah 13:15-18 – “Whoever is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished. See, I will stir up against them the Medes, who do not care for silver and have no delight in gold. Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants nor will they look with compassion on children.”
Hosea 13:16 – “The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.”
Psalms 137:8-9 – O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.
There are many more.
Falcon,
You said ” Why do you think there are so many sects of Mormonism?”
I say… As long as there are 2 people there will be 2 different beliefs to some degree.
No one thinks alike on everything. Not all “Mormons” think alike and not all “Christians” think alike.
Hey Inquisitor,
you said,
Nothing disturbing in the bible????
I say
You were not talking about “disturbing things”. Disturbing is a subjective adjective it just means you find something unsettling
Calling something disturbing It tells us something about you not about God.
Of course there are passages in the Bible that the natural man finds disturbing in fact the entire Bible is disturbing to a rebel if he understands it. A
rebel will find nothing more disturbing than this verse.
quote:
The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Matthew 13:41-42)
end quote:
But before you were talking about “abhorrent” things that God supposedly did in the Bible.
You need an objective standard to to say that the things in those verses is abhorrent. What is your standard?
Or do you just assume that because something is “disturbing” to you it is objectively “abhorrent”?
Peace
Monarchy man,
Yes, I meant unsettling to the natural man,
What I was trying to say was events that occurred in early Mormonism are similar to events that occurred in the Old Testament.
This was a great selling point for Jo. Resurrect the Old Testament and incorporate it into his fledgling enterprise. Hmmmm. How do I get around the fact that prophets are not the only spokesman for God after Jesus came? The Old Testament. How do I get around the fact that marriage in Jesus day was one man, one woman. The Old Testament. How do we justify blood atonement? The Old Testament. How do we justify various and sundry forced regulations that do no benefit to the spiritual well being of the sheep? The Old Testament. The fact that “events that occurred in early Mormonism are similar to events that occurred in the Old Testament” is the one reason that anyone should walk away from Mormonism. (Quickly).
God can see future events and knows the hearts of men. This is how God explained it to Isaiah, “I will stir them up”. Paul would later touch on this issue you bring up,
Are you blaming God for the course of events that people get themselves in to? This is nothing new, as Paul wrote about 2000 years ago. People reap what they sow. And yes, those reactions in the Old Testament are harsh. But they lived by the law and died by it. That is why the revelation of God, Jesus Christ, is overlooked by people who want to go back and condemn God for events in the Old Testament, or use the Old Testament to self aggrandize themselves as Mormon “prophets” do. That is why the Jews rejected him and hung him on a tree. They could not fathom the message to forgive “seventy times seven”, or that they would no longer be living under forced regulations and the letter of the law. This is where Mormonism and many others go off the tracks. Is there one Mormon “prophet” who can see the whole picture and explain it all? Hardly. Their current mantra is “we just don’t know why”. Jo got into too much trouble when he boasted that he could explain it all. He couldn’t, and wound up looking foolish, just like Warren Jeffs, David Koresh, Jim Jones, and a host of others. Is there one man on earth that can now? No. All we need is love.
That is why the revelation of Jesus was so important to mankind. It’s all about love. That is why after 2000 years, the world (and most “Christians”) still don’t get it.
I don’t see the point of this reply. So? We all know this. The difference is, YOU approached THEM. THEY did not seek YOU out. Mormons can say what they want about critics of the Corporation, but WE are not SEEKING YOU OUT. But many Mormons who come here, (for whatever reason) you got that, COME HERE, still don’t listen or accept the truth.
I see you as different from this Ralph, because you pick and choose what to believe in Mormonism. But that is not what you “prophets” want you to do, nor is it what they would tell you God wants you to do. But you still seem to have the idea that you can benefit from a religion that was DOA, and you may, in this life, but be very careful, you may be in for a surprise in the next one. I know from your posts that this does not concern you, but it does affect your logic, as we see from the above quote from your comments.
To answer your question about preachers who tell their congregations not to accept or read any LDS paraphernalia, they are only taking Paul’s advice in the New Testament and are guarding their flocks against heresy. And I’m of the opinion that Mormons can do the same, (and they do). It really doesn’t matter at all. Why, because of what Jesus said,
Most people underestimate the power of that statement, and one that followed it,
Is Falcon “too scared” to read the Book of Mormon, or is Falcon just savvy enough to have researched enough about Jo Smith and his Book of “More Good” to know that it would be a massive waste of his time? For one who has read it, studied it, written about it, and once believed it, I can say the same thing. Don’t bother, because there isn’t a shred of truth to its history, its coming forth, nor in the statements of those that testify about it. But if you feel the need, I say, go ahead. The only thing that may be truthful is that they feel good about what it says and therefore believe the “backstory”. Most of those who believe it are actually doing the exact same thing Falcon is doing, they have read it, therefore refuse to investigate the “backstory” believing it to be a waste of time.
Sadly, those are the people who will continue to believe in the Corporation, and the Father will never draw them to Christ because they have ears, but they won’t hear.
Inquisitor says
What I was trying to say was events that occurred in early Mormonism are similar to events that occurred in the Old Testament.
grindel says:
The fact that “events that occurred in early Mormonism are similar to events that occurred in the Old Testament” is the one reason that anyone should walk away from Mormonism. (Quickly).
I say,
Amen and Amen.
The fact that Mormonism is stuck in the OT is a huge problem for Mormonism not a problem at all for Christianity.
Christians aren’t ashamed of the way God acted in the OC but we don’t live under that Convent.
God is still Just and Holy and still a God of wrath, sin is still ugly vile and deserving of death and hell. All of mankind stands justly condemned for their sins like they did in the OT.
The difference is that now in these last days Christ has born all of Gods wrath for those who trust in him.
That is the Gospel
peace
Grindael,
True, Christians Interpret the New testament differently than Mormons.
This is where as individuals need to make a choice and the live with the consequences.
We will all be held accountable by what we choose to believe and follow. Personally I am glad that Sharon is sharing the Christian faith with Mormons. For the most part I enjoy reading her perspective on faith. I agree with much of what she says. I agree with much of the majority of Christian faith… but not all of it. I do believe in a Universal salvation similar to how Mormonism views it.
Timothy, Chapter 4
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Colossians, Chapter 1
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
I refuse to worship a God who sends the majority of his creations to hell and suffering for ever and ever. without end. What kind of God is this who watches most of his creations suffer without end. Christ is the solution to our Sin and those that refuse to believe and receive him will suffer eternal torment but I do believe that torment has a divine purpose and that is to purge the soul.
I believe those suffering in eternal torment will have their suffering alleviated to some degree in the future or else why would those suffering be praising God?
See Revelations 5:13
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Actually Sharon’s article on “fear” shows us the subset of the larger set which is the role of emotions within Mormonism. It starts with the “burning in the bosom” that’s suppose to occur to testify to the reader of the BoM that it is true. This continues in Mormonism as feelings are the guide to what is of the Spirit and that which is not. Good feelings; the spirit, bad feelings; not the spirit.
I’ve observed in my travels and tours of Mormon sites that the goal of the tour guide is to elicit warm fuzzy feelings in those taking the tour; Mormon or non-Mormon. The Mormon missionaries, according to my friend Mike R, have the goal of stirring up the feelings of the prospect to get the (prospect) into the baptismal tank pronto.
Based on what our friend Ralph has shared over the years, it is my opinion that the hook that keeps him a believing Mormon is that he thinks he’s had some pretty significant supernatural experiences in his life.
It’s been pointed out many times here that there isn’t a religion around that doesn’t claim spiritual/supernatural experiences. This is why the Bible is adamant in cautioning folks to not believe every spirit and to test the spirits. A reading of the Book of Acts demonstrates several power encounters that the apostles had with spiritual entities.
We Christians understand that that is what is happening every time we encounter the spirit of darkness that inhabits Mormonism.
Is it any wonder that Ralph, true to form as a Mormon, wants to down grade and degenerate the Bible. If a person can be convinced that the Bible is corrupted, these false prophets have a clear path to teach whatever they want and call it revelation. Like wise the average Mormon can claim his/her “feelings” as truth and light.
inquisitor says,
I agree with much of the majority of Christian faith… but not all of it.
I say,
Sounds like the beginning of one of those denominations that you were complaining about LOL.
You say,
I refuse to worship a God who sends the majority of his creations to hell and suffering for ever and ever.
I say,
first of all God does not send people to hell at all. People send themselves to hell by their willful disobedience to a loving creator.
Next of all refusing to worship God if he does something you don’t like sounds more like something a rebel would do than a Christian.
I for one don’t completely understand how the Father will deal in the end with the people who hate him and trample on the blood of his precious Son as if it was worthless.
But I do have every confidence that when I completely understand all the details and particulars I will be humbled by his Justice and mercy to everyone including the reprobate and this will cause me to worship him.
peace
Inquisitor says
Well I guess you yourself will be one that goes to Hell, then to the lake of fire for all of eternity for rejecting the truth.
When I was an atheist growing up I felt the same way as you, then once I became a follower of Jesus and did not really know the Bible very well I still felt the same way as you, But over time reading the Bible and being a follower of Jesus since 1992, I no longer feel that way any more.
I know dont feel sorry for people who go to hell, and this is why.
Unlike Mormons, I believe in original Sin, God clearly told Adam and Eve to NOT EAT from the tree of life, lest they Die. They disobeyed God and thats their fault, not Gods Fault.
Also, God does not send anyone to hell or the lake of fire. The Bible tells us that it is not Gods will that any man (Or Women) Human Kind would be more accurate of a wording.
He also says, He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked, And were not talking psychical death. We send ourselves to hell by rejecting God.
The Bible is clear, we must choose to follow Him and believe to be saved, otherwise Rejecting Him we send ourselves to hell.
Now that I follow Jesus and share Jesus with Mormons, Atheists, humans in General, I can see how they willing reject the Gospel and the truth. My currant co-workers, as well as others over the years are very outspoken in the fact that they dont want to talk about or hear about Jesus.
If I talk to them by me starting the talk, I’m told to shut or or not speak, only if they want to hear and ask me, then can I openly say anything. I’ve seen over the years people get more and more hostile to the Gospel.
I even see this in Mormonism, Mormons openly reject what their former leaders have said and taught, then tell us we are wrong, no matter how much evidence we provide. We have even seen Mormons here flat out say, I did not even bother reading any ones reply’s and yet can still say we are wrong. Some mormons on this blog harp on the fact Adam God is not a teaching of the church or not doctrine. Yet when a very indepth Topic was done on the issue of Adam God, that topic was never touched by one single LDS on this blog, then when I point that out the reply we here is, We dont care, it’s no big deal.
Real, it’s no big deal when it’s a topic, but when it is not a topic and a topic gets side tracked by it, LDS wont keep quite over how wrong we are, Funny how that works.
Also the same with the issue of the Trinity, same thing happened. So Yes, you guys reject willing the truth and as the Bible says, will pay the price and you will end up in the lake of fire.
Let me end with this, The Bible says, that the lake of fire was not created for man, but for the angels who fell. So God did not create hell for us and does not want us to go their, but we do and will go to hell from our choices.
Inquisitor,
You said, “I refuse to worship a God who sends the majority of his creations to hell and suffering for ever and ever.”
God is not rejecting anyone who did not reject Him first. And as for grabbing Rev 5.13 and twisting it to support your beliefs, that is unimpressive because anyone can do that and all post-Christian heresies do exactly that.
You said, “I say… As long as there are 2 people there will be 2 different beliefs to some degree.
No one thinks alike on everything. Not all “Mormons” think alike and not all “Christians” think alike”, after Falcon asked you, “Why do you think there are so many sects of Mormonism?” Falcon only asked this because you first said, “I don’t think anyone has the corner on all truth. If the bible was such a clear cut instruction manual from God then we would not have so many various Christian denominations.” You certainly amalgamate the Bible with your non-Christian beliefs and back-peddle like a bonafide liberal pluralist UU, with all due respect.
inquisitor,
You mentioned that you are glad Sharon is sharing the Christian faith with Mormons, and that
you agree with much of what she says . Now, that’s great to hear , but I have to ask you : do you
agree with what she ( or us ) says about Mormon doctrine concerning God/ Jesus/ salvation is
at odds with the Bible ? Is the Mormon prophet the sole mouthpiece of God for the Body of Christ
today ? I’m trying to figure out where you’re coming from etc .
One last note : you’ve stated your belief about hell and suffering etc. I would hope your belief
about this will not cause you to reject other doctrines in the Bible , especially who Jesus is , for
one example , as some people fall into that trap . ( I have no wish at this time to engage in a
discussion about hell —-there’s more important doctrines to consider when it comes to
Mormonism ) .
I was raised Mormon fundamentalist.. so no I do not believe that Thomas Monson is the sole mouthpiece for God. I have come to believe in salvation by grace alone by faith alone in Christ alone but I refuse to believe that souls suffer in hell without end as most Christians view it. Yea let God be true if ALL men liars. Just because the majority of a group believe a certain way does not make it true.
Call me a heretic all you want but that is how I see it.
Inquisitor,
You said, “I have come to believe in salvation by grace alone by faith alone in Christ alone” and yet you still choose to refuse to believe that those who lack faith in Christ will suffer in hell. Please stop moving your goal posts.
Inquisitor,
Ahhhhh our first recorded Mormon fundamentalist; former or current. Please tell us more because it will give us a perspective on your current mind set.
We haven’t had a discussion on hell for a long time and you’ll have to excuse rick. He tends to hold back and not tell us what he really thinks.
You can believe whatever you want but what’s helpful is if people tell us why they believe what they believe. As it is, around here, folks are most impressed with Biblical references because we believe the Word of God is where a person goes to get the truth. However if you believe what you believe because you don’t like the concept of hell, then that is simply an opinion that makes you feel more comfortable.