Early Mormon apostle Orson Pratt sometimes found himself in trouble with leaders of the LDS Church because of things he had written. Mr. Pratt was a prolific writer, and freely expounded on Mormon doctrine, as he understood it. The First Presidency of the Mormon Church issued a Proclamation in 1865 wherein the Latter-day Saints were warned to accept Pratt’s writings with caution. The Proclamation said in part,
“Whenever brother Orson Pratt has written upon that which he knows, and has confined himself to doctrines which he understands, his arguments are convincing and unanswerable; but, when he has indulged in hypotheses and theories, he has launched forth on an endless sea of speculation to which there is no horizon.”
Nevertheless, Orson Pratt’s writings are valuable in that they at least give insight into what an early Mormon apostle firmly believed – and taught. Consider a few excerpts from Mr. Pratt’s “Questions and Answers on Doctrine” from his periodical, The Seer, dated February 1854. Here he discusses the Book of Mormon, how it compares to the Bible, and the importance of the Book of Mormon to mankind.
After explaining that the doctrines and prophecies contained in the Book of Mormon are “very definite, pointed, and plain,” the question is asked, “But is not the Jewish Record or the Bible equally as plain?” Mormon Apostle Pratt answers,
A. No: it no doubt was once just as plain and definite as the sacred Scriptures given in Ancient America. But the Bible has been robbed of its plainness; many sacred books having been lost, others rejected by the Romish Church, and what few we have left, were copied and re-copied so many times, that it is admitted that almost every verse has been corrupted and mutilated to that degree that scarcely any two of them read alike… The first thing, therefore, necessary to the re-establishment of the kingdom of Christ on the earth was to reveal in perfect plainness the exact and precise principles of the gospel in all their fullness; this was accomplished in the remarkable discovery and translation of the sacred records of Ancient America.
Therefore, when Mr. Pratt is asked, “What does the Lord require of the people of the United States?” the Bible does not figure into God’s requirements in any way. Mr. Pratt’s answer centers on repentance, embracing the message found in the Book of Mormon, and baptism into the LDS Church. The Q and A continues with a pronouncement of dire consequences for those who reject the Book of Mormon — not for those who reject the message, but for those who reject the divine authenticity of the book itself (for the Bible, even in its alleged corrupted and mutilated state, clearly contains the specific message that Mr. Pratt defines: a call to repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Spirit — see Acts 2:38).
Q. What will be the consequence if they do not embrace the Book of Mormon as a divine revelation?
A. They will be destroyed from the land and sent down to hell, like all other generations who have rejected a divine message.
Q. In what way will the Lord destroy this nation if they reject the Book of Mormon?
A. By a succession of the most terrible judgments. Plague will follow plague in rapid succession, desolating populous cities and destroying hundreds of thousands. The rains of heaven will be staid, and the earth will not yield forth her wonted harvests, and thousands will pine away with hunger and perish. The bonds of the Union which now hold together the States of this Republic, will be severed, and a fearful, desolating, civil war will rage between the South and the North. The people then will no longer dwell upon their farms, and in their villages, and cities with security, but they will flee from city to city, and from State to State before the face of their enemies, and fear and terror will be upon them by day and night. The laws of the land will then be powerless, and the people will no longer be under their wholesome influence; bands of robbers and murderers will wander over the land unrestrained, and thus will the whole nation mourn and waste away and perish, unless they will hearken unto the great message which God has in mercy sent to them. There is no other alternative; they must either embrace the Book of Mormon as a divine revelation, or be cut off by judgments from the land, for it is the sure and certain decree of heaven. God is not to be mocked, neither can a message be rejected from Him with impunity. Now is the day of mercy; now peace dwells within your borders; now the proclamation is repent and come forth with humble hearts and contrite spirits and be baptized for the remission of sins, that you may receive the Holy Ghost. If this proclamation is unheeded, the sword of justice, which is already unsheathed, will fall heavily upon you.
So it’s not the call to repent that must be heeded, for if it was, the Book of Mormon wouldn’t be necessary since the call to repent is definitely, pointedly, and plainly presented in the Bible. Yet in his own “very definite, pointed, and plain” language, Mr. Pratt tells his readers that “there is no other alternative” than to embrace the Book of Mormon as divine revelation. This is the only way (or perhaps he meant it is the only way to begin) to escape God’s “fierce judgment” against this nation collectively, and its people individually.
As is often the case with the teachings of Mormon leaders, this doctrine does not square with the Bible. The Bible that Orson Pratt dismissed as corrupt and untrustworthy says this: “And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul” (Deuteronomy 10:12). There is nothing here about the Book of Mormon. In fact, the Book of Mormon isn’t mentioned in the Bible at all.
On this subject of escaping God’s judgment, would today’s Mormonism say that Latter-day Apostle Orson Pratt engaged in teaching “doctrines which he understands”? Or had he imprudently “launched forth on an endless sea of speculation”? I don’t think Mr. Pratt’s teaching would raise many eyebrows in today’s Mormonism – although the LDS Church would probably rather not say so in such “definite, pointed, and plain” language.
I have to say that while the Book of Mormon has some great truth in it ( Jesus is the Eternal
God etc ) still , I simply don’t need it . The virtues that can heal lives personally as well as
heal our country have been neglected to a large extent by so many people . If people and our
leaders in Government would return to the spiritual anchor which our fore fathers looked to
then homes can be healed —-the Bible is this anchor . The God it reveals is the one true
Creator , and the gospel of salvation preached by the men Jesus sent out to reach people with
( Rom 1:16 ) is still mighty to save completely all those today who hear it and accept it .
The Book of Mormon , like the Koran, has some truth about Jesus within it’s pages . But the
Bible is God’s word , and it’s sufficient to heal souls and a society who embrace it and live it .
The Mormon people have been detoured by counterfeit apostles who have run way past the
Bible ( and Book of Mormon) with some their teachings , and therefore join those other men
who have come in these latter days claiming to also have been directed by Jesus to reveal
vital truths affecting one’s salvation , but which Jesus’ original apostles never taught in
their travels — Mk. 13:22-23 ; Col 1:20-23 ; Gal 1:8 .
May the Mormon people return to standing on the Bible as the scriptural foundation in their
lives , and dismiss their apostles .
I cannot help but respond to this piece.
Orson Pratt was correct in his claims about the consequences of America either accepting or rejecting the Book of Mormon. The Lord states very clearly in the text of the book what would become of the inhabitants of this land as a consequence of rejecting the book. The book could hardly be more clear.
All should note the problem with trying to separate the “message” of the Book of Mormon from the “authenticity” of the Book of Mormon. They cannot be separated. A very significant portion of the “message” of the book is the significance of the book in the work of the Lord and the restoration of doctrine and authority that would accompany the book. Trying to separate the “message” from the “authenticity” of the book is no different than the argument so common among those who seek to embrace same-sex marriage- “shouldn’t two people who love each other be able to be married.” But you cannot divorce romantic love from marriage any more than you can separate the “message” of the Book of Mormon from it’s “authenticity.”
The Book of Mormon describes so well what has happened in America and what will happen over the next 2 decades, it is difficult to understand why more people do not accept the book. But then again, Christ performed so many miracles before the eyes of so many people who ultimately rejected Him. Why should His latter-day message not also be rejected by so many?
We are at the gates of the most violent and chaotic period in the history of the world- in our very own America. I really wish more people recognized this reality.
FoF said,
“We are at the gates of the most violent and chaotic period in the history of the world- in our very own America. I really wish more people recognized this reality.”
Translation, Romney should have won to legitimize the corporation.
FoF said,
“The Lord states very clearly in the text of the book what would become of the inhabitants of this land as a consequence of rejecting the book.”
I can reference fiction too. Would you prefer Hunger Games or Harry Potter?
FoF said,
“But you cannot divorce romantic love from marriage any more than you can separate the “message” of the Book of Mormon from it’s “authenticity.””
The BoM has no authenticity outside of the 19th century, so it’s message is as good as other pop fiction.
“it is difficult to understand why more people do not accept the book”
I would only focus on this one comment
Number one when someone is in the Mormon church as i was for 36 years it takes a piercing of one’s heart to truly understand the deep fog one was in , it’s so easy to be on this side , clear , with 20/20 hindsight that no active Mormon can understand those of us who have moved forward .
Why is it so difficult for you to understand those of us who left FoF ? Because , you can’t , you won’t , you have fear, you believe we are lost, i have been on both sides,its difficult for you to understand , not us .
Ps i joined the church in 1975, have read the BOM from 1975 till 2011 when i left the church. Each year , now i own a 1830 version .
FofF,
I see you’re back , but it’s looks like you hav’nt come to walk away from Mormonism yet .
Hopefully you’ll take that spiritually liberating step soon .
I summed up why the Book of Mormon ( BM ) is’nt needed today in my post above . I’ll briefly
comment on what you said :
You said ” Orson Pratt was correct in his claims about the consequences of America either
accepting or rejecting the Book of Mormon.”
There have been christian Pastors for years who have warned about rejecting God’s truth in
the Bible and what can happen to this country . We don’t need Pratt’s including the BM .
I’ll say one thing about Pratt though , he was right on some things , things that Mormons should
ponder. He was correct in publically renouncing his leader ( Brigham Young ) for introducing
the doctrine that Adam was the father of man’s spirit , and ” our God” . Unfortunately Pratt was
intimated into keeping his mouth shut about this and thus kept following a latter days false
prophet—Matt 24:11
you said , ” All should note the problem with trying to separate the ‘ message’ of the Book of
Mormon from the ‘ authenticity ‘ of the Book of Mormon . They can’t be separated .”
They can be separated, but we don’t really need to spend a lot of time in doing this because
supposedly the Bible and BM have the same message according to Mormon leaders . So if it’s
not a new message we are looking for then the Bible is sufficient to reveal the truth to us about
God and His Son and a full salvation received from them .—Jn 17:3.
In the introduction to the BM it says that this record is to show also to convince the Jew and
Gentile ” that Jesus is the Christ , the Eternal God .” That’s great . The Bible already does this.
This brings up a important point though , which that Mormon leaders have taught that Jesus
was not always this ” Eternal God ” . That’s a good reason to dismiss the alleged ” modern day ”
apostles of Mormonism .
You said , ” …restoration of doctrine and authority that would accompany the book .”
There was need for a restoration of Jesus’ gospel of salvation ( Rom 1:16 ) because unlike the
claim by Mormon leaders there was no complete apostasy of Jesus’ church and from the saving
truths ( Rom 1:16 ) which His apostles were sent out to teach . The lie of Mormonism that
salvation was not available for 1700 years because Christianity had died off soon after the
death of the apostles is ridiculous and is something latter days false prophets need to bolster
their exclusive claims and gain a audience . Jesus has ALWAYS had followers , something you
failed to understand—-Matt 18:20
you said , ” We are at the gates of the most violent and chaotic period in the history of the
world —in our very own America . I really wish more people recognized this .”
Many do recognize this . Christian Pastors call our attention to this . But that is not the main
reason why Mormons offer the BM to people . The real reason is to emotionally /spiritually
convince people that it is a bridge over which a person must walk over to Mormonism’s
” modern day ” apostles and thus be accepted by God with a chance to qualify for God’s
fullest blessings in heaven . In other words the teachings of the dead prophets of the BM is not
enough , and thus it joins the Bible in this regard .
Speaking of the remedy for America: Gordon B. Hinckley in his book reminded us of America’s
remedy by citing numerous scriptures that if lived would definitely heal our homes and thus
our land , and all these verses were from the Bible ! That is the answer . We simply don’t need
the BM , but more importantly we don’t need the latter days prophets of Mormonism as per
Matt 24:11 ; 2 Tim 4:3-4
Hinckley’s book I referenced is — ” Standing for Something ” .
FoF said,
“Orson Pratt was correct in his claims about the consequences of America either accepting or rejecting the Book of Mormon.” So this is under the providence of the same version of Jesus who allowed for 3 Nephites to roam the Americas without dying and also allowing for the Priesthood to be removed from the earth except for these 3? He lets these 3 Priesthood holders roam America and convert no one, and also allows for Romney to lose the election? Mormon Jesus sure doesn’t sound like he is too concerned about America after all.
I made a typo in a sentence in my last post : I said , ” There was need for a restoration of Jesus’
gospel of salvation ….”
It should have read : ” There was NO need for a restoration of Jesus’ gospel ….”
Also , Pratt did not ” renounce ” his leader ( Brigham Young ) . He renounced the doctrine
that Young had introduced —Adam God , ( but unfortunately he chose to keep following a false
prophet ) .
troll alert! FOF has returned.
I guess we should all repent now and start reading the BOM again to bring MERICA back to its paradisiacal glory.
I am starting to wonder if FOF is BCspace from Mormon Discussions. They both make the same kind of ridiculous hit and run statements.
This was going to be the second comment on this thread, but there was an issue and it didn’t post. Although I didn’t get to publish my prediction before faithoffathers proved it correct, I thank him for doing so and post it now-
As far as Mormonism’s view of these teachings/prophecy today, I think you would get the whole gambit.This would be because it is obviously a false prophecy, so there isn’t an option for a unanimous view.
…
Ok, I give up. If all of my attempts don’t show up by tomorrow-making a regrettable mess-then I’ll repost when i get to a real computer.
Off topic, I’ve heard there was a lesson lately for at least the youth (though usually all classes on Sunday have the same topic or theme) about the importance of developing a personal testimony (not just your parents’). I was told they also talked about going beyond the”standard” testimony (not just owning it for yourself but actually having a real testimony). According to my wife or source also said that they were”taught” (maybe just encouraged our allowed) to “cry”during the”right parts”of their testimony.
Ah the return of FOF!
So you’ve been lurking but all it took was an article on the BOM and you couldn’t resist posting.
Say FOF, did you know that I’ve never read the BoM and I KNOW it’s not true! Yup that’s right. Without even reading it, I know it’s not true. How could I know something like that? Well actually it’s quite easy.
But let me ask you something. Who is the God that is revealed in the BoM? Let’s rephrase that. Who is the God that is revealed in the “original” BoM. That ought to be easy enough for you to answer.
Wait a minute! The original BoM? Yea, the 1830 edition. Is the BoM that the LDS sect in SLC the original “revelation”? It isn’t?
Well was the original BoM that Joseph Smith used his magic rock in the hat trick to pen his tome the real one?
It doesn’t really matter though because the BoM, regardless of its edition, wasn’t true.
And just think about it. I KNOW all of this and I’ve never read………….any of the editions.
Wasn’t if FOF ……………………
Who claimed that through his non-scientific research, he found out that people who had left the LDS church, had stopped reading the BoM? Of course that begs the question, “Are there people in the LDS church, they haven’t left, who don’t read the BoM?”
It would seem that FOF really has a man-crush on the BoM and its author Joseph Smith.
These dedicated Mormons are so convinced that if they can just get people to read the BoM that the reader will be so enthralled and inspired by the story, that they can’t help but testify that it’s true.
But what to do about those people who do read it and conclude that it’s a fairy tale make believe story. In-other-words, it’s not the real deal?
Well then we have to run through the BoM fail safe scenario in order to protect Moroni’s challenge.
Did you pray? Were you sincere? Were you humble? And then the advice, “Just keep reading it until you get a testimony!”
No, it must be reported. The BoM is not true. It doesn’t contain a “restored” gospel. If it’s a feel good for some people, so be it. The problem, however, it won’t lead the reader to discover the gospel of Jesus Christ. To find that, check out the Bible.
So Orson says that a person has to accept the BoM as divine revelation.
Does anyone know exactly what is revealed in the BoM? We have these stories about these Jews who hopped boats and came to America, formed these fantastic, humongous, ancient civilizations (of which there is no evidence), and then disappeared without a trace.
So what’s the message of the BoM. As Sharon so rightly points out if it’s about repentance, that can surely be done without the BoM. The fullness of the gospel is contained in the Bible. Notice there is no Mormonism in the Bible. That’s the problem the LDS church has. In addition to that, there’s no Mormonism in the BoM. That’s really a huge problem.
The result is a whole lot of sects of Mormonism all claiming to have the true restored gospel. And why shouldn’t there be a lot of sects of Mormonism? As our old buddy Orson demonstrates, the main feature of Mormonism is religious creativity and endless speculation.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is clearly taught in the Bible, it never disappeared, there was no need for any type of restoration. Mormons have to decide whether or not they are going to follow a bunch of religious entrepreneurs and the modern day apostle and prophet place holders who BTW, basically maintain the corporation, or if they are going to turn to God and His final revelation contained in His Word the Bible.
Ironman1995
I second everything in your post. Mormons cannot understand where we are because they don’t know the Jesus of the Bible. They are stuck in their Mormon bubble (as Grindael calls it) I too was once stuck in the bubble and nothing but an act of God can penetrate that bubble. It is Mormons who don’t understand that a man with a magic rock has conned them. I wonder how many Mormons would follow Joseph Smith and his story if it were actually happening today. How many would think this man with a magic rock is a true prophet or a nut job? How many would believe he actually had golden plates in his possession? How many would believe he translated scripture? I’m sure there would be those who would follow him but would it be 15 million?
Falcon,
There is a guy in England who claims he’s the real prophet of the Mormon restoration. Matthew Gill. He translated a book of scripture too, The Book of Jeraneck. Why aren’t Mormons all over the world believing this guy is the real deal? Have they all read the Book of Jeraneck? I’ll bet none of them have read it because they KNOW it’s not of God. I wonder if FoF has read and prayed about it. He can’t possibly know it’s not true without first reading and asking God right?
Hay Kate,
What a great observation. Will FOF read The Book of Jeraneck, pray about it to see if it’s true. I doubt it. Why?
Mormons think that everyone has to read the BoM to determine if it’s true. All I have to do is hear the story behind how Smith supposedly scored some gold plates and then translated them by putting his magic rock in his hat and that’s enough for me. Case closed!
Then to top it off and you find out he used the same magic rock to “see” buried treasure in the ground and dig for it………please, give me a break.
But there are people who will believe almost anything or are attacked to certain types of stories. That’s why con men flourish.
I remember reading a newspaper account of people flocking to an auto parts store because someone claimed that the image of the Virgin Mary could be seen in the floor tiles in the bathroom.
Aren’t you glad you’re out of the bubble?
FoF,
I sure you have been lurking and know this, but if not here goes.
I am writting you from a hotel in Israel right now. I crossed the border into Jordan yesterday and toured Petra. I am going to the Red Sea Today, Was up in Tel-Dan, Took a boat out onto the sea of Gallie, have pictures and Videos, and ate some amazing food.
First off, No Mormon can say, they went to places mentioned in the Book of Mormon, and meet the people, ate the food, toured BoM cites, went on barges with no holes, but plugs instead to cross BoM waters, Etc. UNLESS, You only talk about the Bible lands and people mentioned in the BoM.
In the BoM we read BoM people lived in Jeresulam 600 BC, Yet their is zero shreds of Evidence these BoM people ever existed, No Jew has ever heard of them, I even have video evidence we were at archaeological dig sites. The History these sites turn up to prove the Bible is amazing.
Funny how we have a book claiming people lived 600 years BC in Jersulam and zero evidence of it, and no one in this country has a clue about them. Please repent and turn from your false prophets and seek the true and Living God and live.
Rick,
While you’re points are all true, and you could have added more, to Mormons like FOF evidence contrary to what they want as reality, is just an inconvenience that can be over-come by special feelings.
One way a Mormon can visit all of these places mentioned in the BoM is to do so through “second sight vision”. It’s a great technique. What a person does, like Joseph Smith’s witnesses to the gold plates, is to see them through the eyes of faith; not their physical eyes. So whatever is to be seen is done through the imagination which is fueled by desire. Desire is one of the strongest, if not the strongest of the human emotions.
Once this bubble of unreality is pierced, as some of our former Mormon posters have observed, the manufactured reality deflates like a pin-pricked balloon. I think for most Mormons, this bubble (balloon) of Mormon reality, is a slow leak, not a sudden POP!
Have you ever tried to patch a balloon with a slow leak? It doesn’t work. Once the balloons of Mormonism are deflated down to a small nub, and hang over the back of the chair they were tied to, what a Mormon is left with is the after effects of a very bad religious party. Then it’s time to clean-up and move on. It takes courage to face the mess!
BTW, thank you very much on your update on your trip to the Holy Land. May God bless you and yours and keep you safe.
These early Mormon leaders were something else. An entirely different breed of cat. They were like kids in a candy store or more accurately, like bulls in a china store!
They just went off! It didn’t matter. If it was in their heads it came out of their mouths. They were under the impression that they were getting this on-going continuous revelation from God and they would not be deterred from bull horning it.
It was a sign of the times given all of the religious experimentation that was going on. The Mormon leaders could just make it up as they went along; totally spinning around and around, thinking they were actually getting some where. I’ll bet it was unbelievably intoxicating for these guys.
But here’s the sad thing. The rank-and-file in those days, just like today, went along with it all.
There’s a reason why there are so many different sects of Mormonism. These “prophets” are unrestrained. There is so much ambiguity in Mormonism and so many guys who want to be “thee” guy that it breeds a steady stream of goofiness.
Falcon ,
You said , ” But here’s the sad thing . The rank and file in those days , just like today , went
along with it all. ”
You’re right it is a very sad scenario . The rank and file Mormon people have been short changed.
Since 1830 they have been tossed to and fro by their leaders ” gospel teachings ” [ Eph 4:14 ] ,
and have been hesitant to walk away from these men for fear that will bring God’s displeasure
and judgement . These decent people have been detoured from the whole truth about Jesus by
men who cleverly mimic the claims of His true apostles —-2 Cor 11:13 ; Rev 2:2 .
The Mormon people can find freedom by returning to the scriptural foundation , and anchoring their beliefs to it . The Bible is that foundation . Jesus’ apostles preached the gospel that saves
and it’s author is still is saving people to the uttermost who come and bow before Him .
Rom 1:16 ; Heb 7:25 .
Falcon
Your comment “The rank and file in those days, just like today, went along with it” reminded me of a 3 part article written by an English historian. It concerned the impact of early Mormonisn on converts in the UK & to be honest the way they were duped into leaving all they had for the ‘new zion’ was sickening.
These articles give an in-depth account of a relatively unknown period of Mormon expansion into Europe & I would encourage anyone thinking that deceiving the members is a relatively recent phenomenon in the LDS to read these them. They can be found here.
https://stevebloor.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/towards-a-more-fully-representative-history-of-the-british-mormon-experience/
Old Man,
I have read those articles before and they are excellent, revolting and heart breaking.
These people were lured into coming to America by some very clever con men and when they got here the reality was far from the promise.
It’s a typical cult scenario whether it happened in the 19th century or today. If we look at Mormonism today, especially the LDS church out of SLC, it’s all about venerating the leadership. They cannot be questioned. They cannot be wrong and once they speak, the thinking has been done.
They indeed are the Emperors without clothes, the Wizard behind the curtain. It’s all about creating an illusion.
Hey Falcon,
It is 8 am Sunday Morning for me, It is midnight for you right now. I will be here till Sat Dec 14th. Lots more to see and do.
Your right about Mormons and evidence, I have had many mormons tell me they have faith and dont need evidence, and they tell me, I lack faith since I need evidence. But here is the problem with what they say.
First off the Bible never once condemes asking for evidence. We See after John the baptist gets put in Jail, he asks his friends to ask Jesus if He is who He claims to be. Jesus never said, Tell John to believe in faith alone, Jesus does miracles, then says, Go and Tell John, you saw the sick healed, the dead raised, and many other miracles.
Then at the end of the Gospel of John it says, These things were WRITTEN that you may believe. Then if you look at it from a non-religious point, we have scientests writting articles, and they dont just believe that something took place with out evidence, unless it’s evilloution. But for Medicane, Food, things like that, they dont just say, well I believe with out any evidence, this medicane will cure aids, or cure cancer, Ect.
They over here they discovered a piece of Pottery that has Hebrew Writting on it, it is an enemy of King David, talking about the house of David. So now we have evidence Kind david and his house existed. Thats just one of Many.
So the LDS can either say, Yep, evidence exists King David existed and so He must be real. Or I dont have evidence for anything in the BoM, yet I dont care, I choose to reject evidence. Also excuse any mis-spelling, I’m on a moving bus with a laptop headed to Beer-Sheva. I will also post as I can.
To go on with what Faithoffathers said – Jesus taught Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
If the BoM is from God then its authenticity AND message are interconnected. Since Orson Pratt believed in it, he believes this notion. And since we need to live by EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, rejecting the authenticity is also rejecting the message and vice versa.
The same works with the Bible – if one rejects the authenticity then one rejects the message and vice versa.
Oh Ralph,
Come on already with the circular reasoning. It is so Mormon. That’s the way you folks make the Smith myth work for you. Given what you say then every “prophet” with a message comes from God, just because. Do you want me to list all of the prophets who have said they have a message; especially those from Joseph Smith’s era?
Kate has mentioned that guy over in England, his name and the title of his scripture escape me mow, but why don’t you hop on that guy’s bandwagon. And what about all the numerous Mormon prophets running up and down Happy Valley.
No Ralph, you’ve bought into a major religious scam and you can’t let it go. What your post tells me is that you agree that you have no evidence for the BoM so you’ve come up with a form of feelings based support in order to help you continue in this charade.
I’d suggest, Ralph, that you turn to the living God who obviously continues to bring you back to this site in order that you may turn to Him and in so doing secure salvation for you and your family.
Ralph,
On the second thread on this blog, somewhere around post #40 the name “Tom Phillips” came up. I couldn’t remember hearing about him so I did a little search. It was quite informative. He and his wife had received the “second anointing in the LDS church. I don’t know if you’ve reached this pinnacle in the Mormon program but I thought what he had to say related to our topic at hand might interest you.
Tom Phillips writes:
I decided there was one question regarding the Book of Mormon I had answered many times before but I doubted anyone with a good scientific background would accept such an answer. As I considered God would not prevent someone joining his one true church simply because they had a better scientific education and understanding (‘the glory of God is intelligence’), I studied to find an acceptable answer which I assumed would be to demonstrate the flaws in the scientific hypothesis. I wanted this answer for myself to teach others and for my missionaries if I were called as a mission president. NOT FOR ONE MINUTE, at that time, did I think the church was false. I KNEW, beyond any shadow of doubt, it was true. I just needed to know what was wrong with the currently held scientific views. After studying the specific scientific methodology, to my amazement, it stood up. These were not simply hypotheses and theories of scientists but demonstrable FACTS. I believed God to be the ‘Master Scientist’ how else can He be the creator of all things. Therefore, true science cannot be in conflict with His revealed word.
This led me to consider in more depth other truth claims of the church and discuss them with 2 general authorities and consult 2 Brigham Young University professors. CONCLUSION – THE CHURCH WAS NOT TRUE, I HAD ALLOWED MYSELF TO BE DECEIVED.
Ralph,
Did you get that? “………..true science cannot be in conflict with His revealed word”. Sort of a stunning conclusion, isn’t it
http://mormonthink.com/tomphillips.htm
Ralph,
Forgive me because this is harsh. You are the perfect dupe!
You would have been one of the members of Joseph Smith’s ban of merry men (and women) who went foraging around the countryside at night looking for buried treasure that (Smith) said he could see in the ground by looking through his magic rock.
No evidence was necessary. All that was necessary was to have faith.
Smith used this same technique with those who “witnessed” the gold plates. They were convinced that they saw them “through the eyes of faith”.
So what do you do with guys like Tom Phillips referenced in my above post? Was he offended by someone in the church? Was he deceived by Satan? Had he fallen into serious sin?
No Ralph, what happened with Tom Phillips is what happens with countless other Mormons who are flowing out of the LDS church. Their desire to believe the Smith myth wasn’t strong enough to surrender their personal integrity.
The Mormon bubble got pierced. Tom Phillips couldn’t substitute a desire to believe something with reality.
If you’re going to have faith that something is from God, I’d use a little cold stone reality and skepticism. It will keep you from living in a fantasy world of your own making and concluding it’s all true because you want it to be.
Ralph said
Here is the problem Ralph, You need to prove the BoM is from God, and you cannot. Simply saying it is, is not proof, and using that logic, then I simply must believe every person that says, what they belive is true, simply because they said so. Sorry but that does not work.
Ralph said,
“If the BoM is from God then its authenticity AND message are interconnected.” This is true but that is a really big “if” in the front. The BoM is only true in your head. Testimony is the tool of the con-man, and you should run as fast as possible from someone who says the only source of truth comes from within and don’t entertain any external data to the contrary. Run like crazy from that man.
Well I thought I might be able to find the “Mormon prophet” from England that Kate had referenced.
I think Ralph should hop on this guy’s bandwagon. Why not? Believing makes it so and this guy has a fantastic story for a Mormon to embrace. He’s the real deal, right? All it takes is faith for something to be real and true.
“As I began to pray I became aware of a light gathering in my room, so much so that it filled the room and the brightness was so great that I had never seen the likes of it before. I saw descending from above me a personage who was glorious to behold he was dressed in a white robe and he descended until he came to a stop just off the floor. He spoke to me and said these words. “My name is Moroni I come to you from the presence of the Saviour Jesus Christ. I come to you because you asked with a sincere heart and with real intent as to weather the things that you had read were not true. I bear witness in the name of the Father and the Son that they are true and they do bear record of my people and of our dealings with the Saviour Jesus Christ”. I felt totally over come with the spirit I felt tears fall upon my cheeks I was filled with the power of the Holy Spirit and I knew that he was from the Lord because the spirit had bore witness to me. He went on saying. “Behold Matthew the golden plates. Stretch for your hand and feel them. Turn the pages that you might know that they are real. Feel the writing that you might know that it was by the hand of the Prophets that is was written”. I stretched forth my hand and I did as I was commanded. I can’t do justice to how I felt when I did this. All I can say is that I felt the pure love of Christ and that it was overwhelming for a boy as young as I was to have this happen to me. After I had touched the Golden plates Moroni spoke to me saying. “Do not wonder in your mind why I have been sent unto you. For it is the will of the Saviour Jesus Christ that I show these things unto you. The time will come when you will be called to do a great work upon the face of the earth like unto that of the Prophet Joseph smith Jr. But behold I say unto you that this will be the last time that I come unto you for when you are ready the saviour will send another unto you. Be faithful and obedient to the lord. Honour thy parents that your days may be long upon the land. Read from the book of Mormon, read third Nephi and study it out in your mind. I leave you know and I do so in the name of the Saviour Jesus Christ”.”
http://mormonisminvestigated.co.uk/2011/02/20/interview-with-a-prophet/
Here is some more from the prophet Gil only this time during a visitation he was told that he would be given a “book”. WOW! This has to be modern day scripture and as such it should not be questioned but accepted by faith; hence it will be true, right?
I had decided to spend that time reading the book of Mormon and praying, it was while I was praying for guidance about what I could do for my family in these last days of trouble and strife that it happened. The room became engulfed in light and I saw descending out of heaven a personage he rested just of the floor and he spoke to me calling me by name saying “behold I am Raphael sent unto you from the presence of the father and the son”. I stretched forth my hand and he took hold of it I felt him and he was real. I sat on my bed and listen to him talk to me about the work I was to do and the at one day a book would be given to me that would speak of a people that once inhabited my country and that it would stand as a further witness of Jesus Christ.
Ralph would be interested as to what Gil says about the testimony and witness of those in the LDS church.
He says: “……….so when they talk of Christ in their meeting and of Joseph Smith then they feel the spirit bearing witness that they are true, however I believe that this is a hard and troubling question to answer because of the following reason. Many people have had experiences of edification when they have sat and listened to people talk at church meetings and they have assumed that this edification is a justification of truth and a justification of their testimony however I believe that this is not always the case, just ask yourself is something true just because you or I find it edifying?”
Well that’s a bummer!
More to the point, he goes on to explain more spirit visitations and the result:
“I was visited many more times by Raphael each time I was given more commandants and revelations until the time I was given the Book of Jeraneck. I testify that these things are true that I have indeed spoken to Angels from God and they have indeed imparted many things unto me. I know that my Redeemer lives and that I have been given a book that indeed testifies of the Saviour and that it speaks and bears witness of many things to do with the gospel of Christ. I will not deny them and I will defend them till my death and beyond. In the name of Jesus Christ amen.”
Well that settles it. It has to be true because it’s scripture.
I’m reminded of how a very polished salesman can sell his product to people that ultimately
they really don’t need .
This is similar to Mormon Missionaries and their product the Book of Mormon .
But the Book of Mormon testifies of Christ . Great , I can appreciate that point .
But so does the “revelations or “scriptures ” or visions of latter days prophets/ messengers such
as Matthew , Brain Mitchell , Christopher Nemelka . If the product these men are selling are
in fact counterfeits won’t a good counterfeit look and sound very close to the original ( the
Bible , especially the teachings of Jesus’ apostles ) ?
Men who would come in the latter days with such imitations is something we are told to be on
the alert for , as per Jesus’ counsel in Mark 13 : 22-23 . It matters not if they are well groomed ,
act polite and talk about a moral lifestyle . What do they teach about God/Jesus or what is
required to receive eternal life is the question.
The thing about the Book of Mormon is that I’m sure there has been Mormons who embrace
the Book Mormon as a revelation from God , but who have been ex-communicated by Mormon
leaders . Why ? Because they recognized how Mormon leadership have drifted from the
teachings in the Book of Mormon ( and Bible ) and have introduced false doctrine , especially
about God etc . So the whole issue is not really the Book of Mormon , rather it’s the men who
have claimed to established Jesus’ church in 1830 and receive daily supervision from Him
to teach His people . These men are the ” modern day ” apostles of Jesus , compared to the
dead ones in the Book of Mormon ( and Bible ) . They should rightly be tested —1 Jn 4:1 , why ?
Because men not authorized by Jesus to teach will come attempting to mimic the claim of
His original apostles —Rev 2:2
Safety in the latter days is sticking with the original . Gal 1:8
Falcon,
Interesting stuff about Matthew Gil huh? I am going to have to check out the actual Book of Jeraneck, I wonder if it’s written in sixteenth century king’s English like the Book of Mormon?
Matthew Gil says this:
“I testify that these things are true that I have indeed spoken to Angels from God and they have indeed imparted many things unto me. I know that my Redeemer lives and that I have been given a book that indeed testifies of the Saviour and that it speaks and bears witness of many things to do with the gospel of Christ. I will not deny them and I will defend them till my death and beyond. In the name of Jesus Christ amen.”
This sounds like something Joseph Smith would say. The whole Matthew Gil thing is also the fruits of Mormonism. Just like the FLDS, Church of Christ, Community of Christ, LDS and every other sect of Mormonism. They all have the fruits of Joseph Smith’s fertile imagination as their foundation.
Sorry to intrude, as this has nothing to do with the topic you’re discussing. I just wanted to keep you informed of my ex-wifes progress out of the church & here’s a brief update.
She called me an hour ago to tell me that they (the church) are becoming a little concerned about her. She said the man who called her made it sound as if the ‘spirit’ was telling him that she had problems. I told her that it was much more likely that they’re simply checking up on her because she hadn’t been to church for a few weeks.
Anyway, he asked her if she had any problems & she told him “a few, mainly concerned with tithing, the CK & marriage.” He then asked her who she had been talking to & she said “no one but I have been reading the New Testament a lot & can’t find anything in it about Christian tithing, men becoming Gods or marriage in Heaven”.
She called me to ask for any information I could give that might help her case as they’re calling on her sometime in the next couple of weeks. Early next week I’ll be visiting my son who lives near her so I’ll leave her a lot of printed info.
Oh, one final thing, she told me she had just made herself a cup of tea, the first in many years & to quote her exact words “it tasted soooooo good” J
That’s awesome Old man! We’ll pray specifically for her and this meeting and your whole family, of course.
Praise God!
(if this post works but the next doesn’t I am really confused what’s going on with my account – please check your email Sharon!)
Ok, so now I am on a real computer (and I am hypothesizing something about post length) let’s try this:
This was going to be the second comment on this thread, but there was an issue and it didn’t post. Although I didn’t get to publish my prediction before faithoffathers proved it right, I thank him for doing so and post it now (with only minimal editing to everything but the prediction)-
As far as Mormonism’s view of these teachings/prophecy today, I think you would get the whole gamut. This would be because it is obviously a false prophecy, so there isn’t an option for unanimous view.
…
Those who recognize that it is false will claim it is not a prophecy but just his speculation.
Ok, so either God doesn’t want me to post this comment (given the multi-day, multi-attempt, multi-method, multi-tweek numerous failings) or there is something very weird happening with my account.
Help!
Those who accept that it is a prophecy will deny the clear simple meaning of it in order to avoid concluding that it is false. (just like Joseph’s Civil War/World War “prophecy”) They will say that the prophecy is being fulfilled still, “just look at the state of America!”.
Ignoring the clear immediacy and direct relation of the events listed they will say it is a broad longterm prophecy, just like they do with Joseph’s Civil War prophecy.
As for the LDS leadership, they will do what they always do and do so well – nothing.
RickB,
So prove to me that the Bible is the word of God. Can you do that?
Falcon,
Does Mr Phillips accept the Bible because there is much in that that is also against accepted science? If he does accept the Bible then why does he reject the BoM on that principal? Its a double standard. I can’t think of much in the BoM that contradicts science (note I said much, so I am accepting that there is something in there that does contradict science), but there is more in the Bible that does.
Ralph said
“Does Mr Phillips accept the Bible because there is much in that that is also against accepted science? If he does accept the Bible then why does he reject the BoM on that principal?”
Mr. Philips does not reject the BofM on any principle. He rejects Mormonism in its totality for the very simple reason that he was deceived by the LDS. One small lie turned into many very large lies & his integrity would not allow him to continue with the deception & that in turn led to the loss of his home his wife & his children. Since that time he has worked tirelessly to expose the LDS for what it is, an authoritarian & extremely wealthy business organization engaged in deception for tax purposes.
You should read his story sometime; read especially his letter to GA Jeffrey Holland, a one-time friend, & the reply he received, it might open your eyes to what is being done to you & millions of others.
Old Man,
I have not read Mr Phillip’s story, I have only responded to what Falcon wrote. Now if you didn’t read what Falcon wrote, here are the basics from his post which appear to be direct quotes from Mr Phillips.
So according to this Mr Phillips applied the scientific method to the BoM and found out that it did not stand up to it. What he was comparing is not specified, but it was not the church as a whole as you said in your post, but the BoM.
Then in the final sentence in Falcon’s post he said – Did you get that? “………..true science cannot be in conflict with His revealed word”. Sort of a stunning conclusion, isn’t it
His revealed word implies the BoM and not the whole church as well. So according to what Falcon has portrayed, Mr Phillips found the BoM to be lacking in science and thus it is false, making the LDS church false. I was questioning Falcon about Mr Phillips and the Bible because it too does not hold up to science, thus if he still believes in the Bible as being God’s revealed word, then he has a double standard.
Ralph.
I completely agree with Phillips that “true science cannot be in conflict with His revealed word” If genuine revelation appears to conflict with science it means that either the science is wrong or it means that our interpretation of scripture is wrong.
You said,
I was questioning Falcon about Mr Phillips and the Bible because it too does not hold up to science
I say,
Please elaborate.
I know of nothing in the Bible that does not hold up to science. There are some things that appear to be in conflict with modern science but in such cases it is easy to “demonstrate the flaws in the scientific hypothesis”.
no double standard here.
Can you say the same when the BOM seems to be in conflict with science or history?
Peace
I just needed to know what was wrong with the currently held scientific views.
Kate,
Where these Mormons get messed-up is with that witness of Christ line. They then assume it’s the real deal. Within that smoke screen, all sort of things can be taught and practices promoted. It’s like calling a food “lite” that has none of the characteristics of what we’d consider authentic lite food.
So it is with Mormonism. They slap the “Jesus” label on the religion and then it’s assumed that what they believe reflects Biblical Christianity. Our buddy clyde exemplified that on the second thread on this blog. He just can’t seem to come to grips with the fact that simply using the same vocabulary doesn’t qualify Mormonism as orthodox Christianity. He seems to think it’s all a small thing; the differences.
In Jesus we have the completion of the revelation. There are no add-ons to the revelation as once and for all delivered.
The apostle Paul made this fact clear; don’t pay any attention to people claiming to have had special visions especially when these “visions” contradict what we know is the pure gospel of Jesus Christ.
Ralph,
So if the Bible is true than the BoM is true also. Or if the Bible is false than the BoM is false also. Is that what you are saying?
Here’s the problem you and other LDS folks have. Your favorite debating technique is to not defend Mormonism or the BoM by trying to turn the tables on Christianity and the Bible. At-any-rate, it helps you maintain a belief in a book and religion that are clearly false. It really doesn’t matter what someone thinks about the Bible or the Christian faith in regards to whether or not Mormonism and the BoM are true.
Kids use this technique when they’re in trouble for doing something they shouldn’t have. They try to get the heat off of themselves by pointing to someone else and their mis-deeds.
Quite frankly, I don’t know what Phillips thinks of the Bible. It’s immaterial to our discussion regarding the BoM.
BTW, I prayed for you and your family yesterday when I was at church. God keeps bringing you back here for a reason Ralph. I hope and pray that you come to an understanding of who Jesus is and what He provides for us when we come to Him in faith.
OOPS!
Early in the morning. I’ve committed bad sentence structure. I know you all know what I mean but………………….my above sentence should have read:
“Your favorite debating technique is to defend Mormonism or the BoM by trying to turn the tables on Christianity and the Bible.”
But how do I know the BoM is false? Well anytime someone claims to have received a message from some spirit being printed on gold plates and written in Reformed Egyptian, it raises a red flag. Then when I find out the guy supposedly translated these gold plates by putting a magic rock in his hat and shoved his face in the hat, that’s a tad bit suspicious. But then I find out that the guy use to hunt for buried treasure by using the magic rock to see into the ground? It’s pretty tough to get by that. Then when we find out that many of the things, objects etc., talked about in the book didn’t exist in that time period, well that’s not good.
I can see where someone might be impressed with the theme or message regarding Jesus in the BoM. The problem is that that doesn’t make the story true. A fictional account of a group of people, whether testifying to Jesus or not, doesn’t make the story true.
If I were a Mormon, the first thing I’d do is seek after Jesus by finding out who He really is. The LDS Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. One of the LDS prophets said that the Jesus of the LDS religion is not the same Jesus acknowledged as Lord and Savior in the Christian faith.
That’s a big deal and worth looking into.
Ralph
“His revealed word implies the BoM and not the whole church as well. So according to what Falcon has portrayed, Mr Phillips found the BoM to be lacking in science and thus it is false, making the LDS church false.”
What I was trying to say in my previous post, unfortunately not very well, is that Tom Phillips did not leave the LDS because the BofM didn’t fit current scientific knowledge, he left because of the continuous deception he found had been practised by the Corporation since its inception, it was that which proved Mormonism in its totality to be false. Be aware that this was after he had received his second anointing, a ritual that very few Mormons are aware of.
I asked you to read his story, specifically his exchange of letters with Jeffrey Holland who was a friend of his as well as being a general authority & if you had done you would know that the problems with the BofM turned out to be just the tip of the iceberg.
Ralph said
Ralph,
You have been here long enough, have seen and read so much, and have been unable to answer much to the point I am convinced you don’t care what the truth is.
Lets recap, shall we?
I pointed out that there were two hard core atheists that did not know each other growing up. One was a lawyer and one was a journalist. Josh McDowell and Lee Stroebel. They set out to prove the Bible was false. They found the evidence to be so overwhelming that they came to know Jesus.
I asked you and other LDS. Name one book written by an atheist who set out to prove the BoM false and came to Mormonism because the evidence was so overwhelming. It has never happened.
Falcon has asked over and over and over, where is Mormonism in the early church history and writings? No Mormons have ever given it.
I am sitting in the Jerusalem Tower Hotel writing you right now. Just the fact that the Bible said the Jews would be dispersed from their homeland, then hundreds of years later come back is evidence alone. No other nation in the history of the world has ever been driven from their homeland, then 300 plus years pass, they they come back from all nations of the world, reclaim their homeland. They have their native language, money, history, writings, etc. And as I said, the Bible said this would happen.
Once May 14, 1948 happened, that day should have proved it all, but nope, people reject that evidence.
The Bible mentions the Dead Sea, the Sea of Gallilee; I was on both. The Bible mentions Jeruselem; I’m here right now. I have pictures of signs written in Hebrew, Aramic, and English that say, “archaeological work underway, do not enter.” They have found coins, swords, buildings, pottery, statues, graves, food, and writings proving these places and people existed. Yet the BoM claims people mentioned in the BoM lived in Jersulam 600 B.C.. Yet in all the archaeological digs, not one single shred of evidence has ever been found for people in the BoM. Why is that?
Everything else has been found? You cannot read the BoM and say, “This body of water is mentioned, and I’m sitting in a boat on it”, or, “This piece of land is mentioned in the BoM and I’m walking on it”, or “this group of people is mentioned and I’m talking with them or eating their food.”
Ralph, no offense, but you’re a fool to reject all the evidence in favor of the lies in the BoM.
Ralph said,
“So prove to me that the Bible is the word of God. Can you do that?” I can prove that the Bible is rooted in history but you can’t do the same with the BoM.
Ralph said,
“I can’t think of much in the BoM that contradicts science”. More specifically the BoM has nothing to do with the history of the Americas but the BoM is true only in your head. Can you produce for us just one artifact that is either Jaredite or Nephite?