A few weeks ago Larry Richman at LDS Media Talk (“not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”) brought up the persistent question, “Are Mormons Christian?” After having affirmed that Mormons say they are Christians, and having provided some reasons to support that position, Mr. Richman wrote,
“In recent decades, however, some have claimed that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a Christian church.”
I don’t know if Mr. Richman meant his statement to convey the idea that Mormonism’s designation as a non-Christian religion is something relatively new — only asserted in recent decades — or not, but that’s how his claim sounded to me. If that’s what he meant, Mr. Richman was wrong.
While not specifically stating that Mormonism was not Christian, in the late 1800s Baptists missionaries to Mormons described the Mormon religion with statements like these:
“But why does Utah, why does this Eden of Salt Lake City, so especially need the gospel? Because, as in that Eden of old, the trail and the slime of the serpent are there, and no one but the ‘man child,’ ‘the seed of the woman who should bruise the serpent’s head’ by the power of the gospel, can destroy this work of Satan.” (Rev. S. Graves, The Baptist Home Mission Monthly, quoted here.)
“Mormonism is a strange compound of Christianity, Judaism, and Mohammedanism; of saintliness, sensuality, and superstition; of the devout and the diabolical. It is not all evil. A system all evil couldn’t have the power and hold this has. There is enough of good with the evil to make it a masterpiece of the deceiver.” (ibid.)
“ . . . much has been said and written of late concerning the religious condition of Utah, but only by personal contact and observation can we truly appreciate the appalling evils of Mormonism. Only as we try to win its adherents to the truth can we measure the intensity of the fanaticism. Their system combines in one strong bond almost every evil that can control a soul. The basest passions, the strongest prejudices, the densest ignorance, all oppose the entrance of truth. “ (Rev. Richard Hartley, The Home Mission Monthly, quoted here.)
“Salt Lake City has a population of 25,000, and of this number, from 18,000 to 20,000 are Mormons. Of course so great a preponderance in point of numbers gives to the Mormon Church a growing influence. Everything large and grand is Mormon. The large banks, stores, school and Sunday congregations are Mormon.
Mormons make the laws, collect the taxes, try the criminals, and manage the schools. And what is this Mormon power? Are its heart-beats in sympathy with our institutions? Are its teachings and practices in keeping with American ideas? No, it is a despotism in the heart of a republic, a hierarchy in the midst of a free church, and a form of Oriental barbarism in the lap of Christian civilization. Organized upon falsehood, its columns filled from the ranks of ignorance and superstition, and led on by artful and cunning priests, and tolerates practices worthy of Tartars and Turks.” (Rev. D. Spencer, The Home Mission Monthly, quoted here.)
Baptists didn’t think too highly of Mormonism 120 years ago. But they weren’t the only ones. Also in the late 1800s Rev. R.G. McNiece, who had pastored the First Presbyterian Church in Salt Lake City for twenty years, wrote,
“The Mormon System is thoroughly anti-Christian…Mormonism is a deliberate counterfeit of the Christian religion, intended to deceive the ignorant…Mormonism tries to palm off on the world a counterfeit Bible…Mormonism imposes upon the people a counterfeit priesthood…Mormonism imposes upon the people a counterfeit group of apostles” (Mormonism: Its Origin, Characteristics, and Doctrines, quoted here.)
And at a General Conference in 1898 Mormon Apostle Abraham O. Woodruff noted:
“I have in my pocket a slip of paper clipped from the Portland Oregonian of March 28th, giving the opinion of one Mr. Stone, the secretary of the Young Men’s Christian association. His comments are very much of the character I have mentioned. He says that the Mormons who have been members of his association have not been permitted to vote or hold office because they are not considered as Christians.” (Conference Report, April 1898)
Twenty years earlier, in 1877, Brigham Young acknowledged that non-Mormons in America did not view Mormons as redeemed Christians but rather as a people needing to hear God’s truth:
“You will probably have what is called a Christian Church here; they will not admit that we are Christians, but they cannot think us further from the plan of salvation as revealed from heaven than we know them to be, so we are even on that ground, as far as it goes.” (Journal of Discourses 14:196)
From Brigham Young’s remark it is evident that “some have claimed that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a Christian church” for at least thirteen of the past “recent decades.” But if we look across the pond to England where Mormons were proselytizing in 1838, we find this from “An Impartial Observer”:
“I cannot, without deep regret, witness the counteracting influence of certain heresies and dogmas which are now so industriously propagated, chiefly among the more illiterate portion of the inhabitants… the Mormonites introduce themselves under the specious pretence of superior sanctity and religious knowledge, and by this means artfully contrive to pass off a base counterfeit for genuine Christianity.” (Preston Chronicle, 18 August 1838, quoted in The Guardian, 24 July 2012.)
For no fewer than seventeen and a half decades non-Mormons have expressed publicly that Mormonism is not genuine or authentic Christianity. Any suggestion that this is a recent development is mistaken.
It has been my observation that in more recent years, inclusivism, political correctness, and an extensive LDS PR campaign has resulted in many, whether by design or error, claiming Mormonism is Christian – even though Mormonism continues to embrace the same heretical doctrines that earned it the epithet “counterfeit Christianity” over one hundred seventy-five years ago.
FoF said
FoF, many religions and even Atheists that would never claim Jesus to be their leader do good works or good things, so simply doing good works does not make you saved or mean yoo love the light, thats crazy.
Now I showed you mormonism and works, so lets look at Christians and lack of works.
First let me state, Christians do works and believe in doing good works, But the works cannot save us, do not save us, and yes we can be saved with out doing good works. Lets start with going back to the book of Genesis.
Genesis 3:7
Notice that after Adam and Eve ate of the tree and their eyes were opened what did they do? They clothed their nakedness (They covered their own sin).
Yet what do we read God did? He killed an living creature and covered their nakedness (Sin).
We read the very first account of human kind doing works to cover themselves, and it was not good enough, God needed to cover us. Our works were not helpful and it was only by and through God that we could be covered.
Now we also read in the Bible that God knew this would happen and Jesus is called, The Lamb of God, and the Bible states that He was slain before the foundation of the world was even created. So before man kind was even created and before we could even think of doing any work to save ourselves, or help God save us, it was all taken care of for us.
Now we also read in the OT, that we had animales that were killed to cover our sins, but the Bible tell us, we needed to keep doing this over and over and over, because the blood of bulls and other animales was trully not enough to erase our guilt and cover us once and for all. But the Blood of Jesus was enough to cover us once and for all.
But now we read in the OT with Moses and the passover, that everyone was to take a lamb and sacrfice it and put the Bllo of the lamb on the door posts, and it formed a cross.
Blood on the top of the door and the sides, that looks like a Cross. But also in order to be saved by the Bllod during the passover, No works were involved and all could be saved. Any egyptian that was in the house under the Blood was saved, and any Jew that was outside of the house not under the blood would die if they were a first born Child.
This shows a few things, No works required for us to be saved, it shows no favorstism as far as all could be saved, Both the Egyptians who killed the Jews, and Jews who were favored of God, as you said, could die if they were not under the blood.
FOF,
I just have a couple of questions for you that only you can honestly answer in you heart (and I hope you will). Is Jesus your TREASURE? Is He EVERYTHING to you? Are you deeply satisfied in Him and Him ALONE? Do you love anything and everything that will stir your affections for Him? Is He your Magnificant Obsession? Are you throwing yourself on Him for mercy? Is He your ONLY hope for forgiveness, for the fulfillment of all of His promises to you, and for Eternal Life? Or are you somehow – even partly – banking on yourself?
An LDS friend of mine recently told me that I was too obsessed with Jesus. I can only conclude from that remark that I must know an entirely different Jesus; and for that I will be eternally grateful!
FoF and LDS here,
This is far from my best writing, but it may be helpful for perspective.
1) LDS and Christians both believe in grace, obedience, works, and salvation.
2) Just because Christians here are picking a bone with you, FoF, about who Jesus is, or which Jesus you believe in, does not mean that that is the only criteria for who a Christian is. As Christians here have said OVER and OVER works are the fruit, the proof, of faith; in fact, this is just what you said yourself, FoF.
Christians and LDS share similar morals, the greatest difference is who their faith is in and how works are related to that faith and to their salvation. Jesus warned of false Christs – so the identity of Jesus is important. Jesus warned of doing works without faith – so the relationship between faith and works is important. Jesus warned of false prophets – so any prophet-like person is suspect and especially churches claiming an actual prophet of God is to be scrutinized.
3) LDS Church does not teach that Jesus’ sacrifice is sufficient. It teaches that works are absolutely necessary in order to be fully saved (Celestial Kingdom/exaltation). This is evidenced by the thief on the cross. LDS leaders teach that this guy still had to get works done in Paradise (somehow read as “Spirit Prison”) despite Jesus saying that the man would be with Him. Christians believe that the work done by Christ is sufficient to return the thief to himself and the Father, immediately.
4) LDS and Christians both believe that as we live “in Christ” we will be changed, becoming more mature, more obedient, sinning less, doing more good works. LDS believe that this is theologically and soteriologically required in order to “merit” and be comfortable in the CK. The LDS Church has historically taught that the cessation of sins must be accomplished in this life.
Christians believe that good works are part of God’s purpose for us – what we were made to do. They are also the fruit of His healing us and us growing intimate with Him – a trend that will be completed and fulfilled when we shed these bodies and return to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. No requirement for salvation, but the fruit of a saving relationship.
4) LDS believe that sanctification is necessary for full salvation. This is how they are “worthy” or “merit” the CK/exalt.
Christians believe that sanctification is part of God’s fulfillment of recreating us and healing the scars of the Fall of Creation.
5) What is interesting is the issue of rewards in Heaven. Christians hardly ever mention rewards in Heaven, other than the “reward” of God Himself. The LDS Church makes the Kingdoms and exaltation the rewards. The Bible does not talk much about the rewards at the Judgement. The LDS Church constantly speaks of the blessings now and the blessings later, and as motivation for their good works. The issue of rewards in Heaven is difficult to understand (what compares to intimate relationship with the Most Beautiful Powerful High Good Holy God?). The LDS have come up with a systematic answer. But it seems to require redefining “Grace” and “Mercy”.
I’m currently discussing LDS grace with a guy on Facebook. He shows a lot of quotes by one current LDS Apostle and one BYU professor (a small party) that mention the necessity of Christ’s Atonement. They sound pretty good, but never mention the necessity of works. Then this guy exclaims that he never said that works were not necessary. And the redefininig of ‘grace” and “mercy” continues.
wilburson
My Ex-wife called tonight & if you have been reading my updates on her situation you will know that she is on her way out of the LDS
Earlier this evening she needed someone to talk to as the pressure on her to ‘conform’ is growing & she’s getting a little nervous. I’m sure you know the kind of pressure I’m talking about, constant calls & visits, people asking ‘who have you been talking to, has someone in the church offended you? You must read the BofM more’
Anyway, the reason for me saying all that is because of your comment concerning your LDS friend. It reminded me of something she said while we talked & I quote:
“Jesus is rarely mentioned in church, it seems to be mostly about Joseph Smith.”
That to me says it all.
Would anyone reading this please pray for her, I know the pressure will continue to grow & her health isn’t too good at the moment.
FoF,
You said, “Note the words of Christ in that sermon to which you refer, “Judge not that ye be not judged.” Do you really think you can judge the motive, desire, and heart of other people? I can think of very few things that are more dangerous.”
John 7.24. You see, this is why I am not engaging your conversation on the Sermon on the Mount. You yourself said, “critics of our church like to pull a passage from this sermon (just before the passage I quote above) out of context”. See how easy it would be for either side to twist scriptures. Rather than me challenging you to get into a hermeneutical tussle over the Olivet Discourse or what have you, how about we discuss the subject at hand.
Either Mormons are not Christians, or Mormons are the only Christians, but not both. Talking about the so-called apostasy is very very very relevant to the subject at hand.
MJP-
You really think Christ was merely offering advice on how to have a “solid” life? In the Sermon on the Mount, Christ explained how one could “be forgiven,” “obtain mercy,” “be called the children of God,” “inherit the earth,” “enter the Kingdom of God,” and on and on. What part of salvation is not represented by those things? Christ is certainly the “rock” of which He spoke. And His instructions in that sermon absolutely lead to salvation as one follows Him.
RickB- go read John 3 again. Notice the emphasis on deeds between the verses you quote. You really just glossed what I explained to you. And please provide a list of people who are atheists and who do all those things Christ outlined in His Sermon on the Mount. I will anxiously await that list!
Your criticism with the BOM is really not the topic of this thread. Neither is the criticisms of apostate Christianity of early leaders of the church. And this really is not about faith vs. works- that has been hashed and rehashed here a million times. It is about the criteria for determining who is a Christian. And by the way, 1 Nephi 14:10 is in the context of a huge division which will take place in the world in time- you are not even considering the context. But that is OK- the critics always get the meaning of that verse wrong. I want to communicate clearly to the world who I am and who the church follows. And modern communication relies upon definition of words. And Christian is defined as one who follows Christ and believes in Him.
Again- not a faith vs. works conversation here. But just to answer your protest- works “perfect” faith. In other words, our faith is strengthened by obedience, repentance, and works. See James 2. So works do not save us at all. But they are required to strengthen and “perfect” our faith. And it is by faith that we are saved.
Ultimately, none of your quotations or interpretations of those scriptures rebuts my points and explanation of Christ’s own words in the Sermon on the Mount and elsewhere. In John 6, Christ is talking to those who merely wanted to fill their bellies. His reference to the “meat” that is not worthwhile is simply the concept of working in this life to obtain temporary pleasures and short-term benefits. He is not talking about righteousness or good works. Remember- his reference point is their desire to eat food. You are forcing something into the text that is not there.
The folks to whom Jesus spoke didn’t believe He was who He claimed to be. And they did not follow Him. This passage does not prove the point that you think it does. Yes- we must believe in Christ. He is the only means by which we can be saved. But those people didn’t believe that, and they didn’t follow Him. So there is no way that you can insist that it was only the mental lack of belief that caused them not to be saved. Believing means doing what He says. There is no way around that.
Wilburson- yes to all your questions.
Spartacus- works both generate faith and result from faith, not just one of those. It is a cycle that should last throughout our lives.
Christ mentions false Christs twice. One is in Matthew 24. And in that chapter, He says that at His second coming, all the world will know that He is returning. So- do not believe people when they tell you that He has returned. He also says that false Christs shall deceive the very elect. That does not support the argument from the critics about who is a Christian. But yes- we must be careful and follow true disciples and servants of God. But again, where is the connection to getting the right abstract Christology? He says that the false Christs will show great signs- He says nothing about false Christology.
No- LDS believe Christ’s sacrifice is completely sufficient to save us. But our faith will wither away and die if we do not repent and do good works. But our works do not save us.
mistaken testimony- there are true Christian in my church and in other churches. It is foolish to think that the boundaries between churches are the same thing as the boundaries between true Christians and non-Christians. To determine who is a true Christian, one would have to have the capacity to judge another’s heart and motives. And I do not posses that power and wisdom. And I don’t think anybody else does except God Almighty and His Son.
As far as the Sermon on the Mount- I used it as an example of Christ’s teachings and how He defined His followers. I think my interpretation of the meaning of His words in that sermon are correct and that the critics who responded to my comments did not understand the verses from that sermon that they quoted.
FoF,
You said, “there are true Christian in my church and in other churches. It is foolish to think that the boundaries between churches are the same thing as the boundaries between true Christians and non-Christians.”
Hogwash. How do Mormons define “only-begotten” and “first born” vs how Christians define these terms. This is not some trivial issue such as yard fences. Thank you for stating that WHO Christ is is about as important to you as jerrymandering, and also thank you for losing credibility with the investigators who desperately needed you to give an honest answer. Your tactics are transparent and thank for helping our cause. Your sentence also does not apply because Mormons are not the Church, unless you aren’t concerned with WHAT actually constitutes the true church. Oh wait, that is quite consistent of you after all…
FoF,
You said, “As far as the Sermon on the Mount- I used it as an example of Christ’s teachings…”
Which Christ, yours or mine?
FoF,
I’m thoroughly convinced that your going to believe what you want no matter what we say.
I gave a ton of info as well as others have, and you ignore it all and when I tell you this all apllies to who is a Christian, you try and make up your ides and when You mention the sermon on the mount and say, This is what Jesus said Followers of God will do, and so I show you other scripture showing that we as Christians are not saved by works, and that your church shows you MUST do works. Yet you try and say, sorry but were not talking about works vs Grace.
While that is not the subject of this topic, it does go hand in hand, since you claim Christians will do all these works Jesus lays out. So you mentions work that we do to prove we are Christians, so I can adress that issue.
Then you said
Again, your doint the old, I dont like whats being said, I cannot answer that issue, so I will claim we cannot talk about it.
Lets see, you still have not replied to my argument about you using Atheist arguments and how you worded you issue with God and the flood in such a way that is dectiful. Hard issue so you avoid it.
You claim over and over that this topic is about who is a Christian, so I showed that the BoM mentions the Word Christian hundreds of years before the Bible mentioned it. Yet the Bible claims it was FIRST USED in Antoich. So again you refuse to address that and claim that the BoM is not the subject of Debate. Cant you read and think? I’m not talking about the BoM, But the word Christain and why is it found in the BoM hundreds of years before it is mentioned in the Bible.
If the Bible claims it was first used then, then either the BoM is a fraud and mad up, or the Bible lied, they both cannot be correct. And dont say, I cannot ask this since the topic is about Christians, and that is the word I’m talking about.
Then FoF, You said
Here we go again, You throw out the word apostate, claim thats us, then tell us we cannot talk about it, You say thats us and think we wont talk about it, then you need to stop saying it. Also Your leaders seemed to have no problem saying who was a Christian and who was not, but it’s ok for you to quote leaders and prophets of old when it suits your needs, and your church is built upon these men as leaders and prophets and you guys look to them for Revelation, yet when we quote them, you guys cry foul.
As far as Atheists who do what jesus said in the SoTM, I can tell you I know many “Moral” Atheists, My parents, coworkers, and many others, I could give you names, but what good would that do you? You cannot talk with them, I wont give out their info so you can talk to them. I will gladly post all my info if people want to write me, call me, or even visit me at home, But I dont pass out other peoples info.
I think I have a solution for FOF, who claims no one is answering his questions.
FOF do this. List your questions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. Then we’ll go right down the list 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc answering your questions. That way there will be no doubt that your questions have been answered.
Actually what I think is happening is that people are answering your questions but you either don’t like the answers or are not satisfied with the answers. See then what you could do is choose which one it is and write that after the answer. We’re going to try and lift the cloud of confusion that seems to be hanging over you which, I think, is caused by the Mormon thinking that over comes true believers.
FoF,
There is a lot to cover in the SoTM, I dont have time to go over all of it, so I will cover a few things here.
In matthew 5;1-11 it say Blessed are you if, Their are lots of people who are not believers and do not follow Jesus, They could be Atheists, JW’s, Muslim, Buddist or many other religions, And they are poor in spirit, they mourn, they are perscuted, and peace makers, does this make them Christians?
No it does not. Then the Sermon says this
So FoF, please explain to me, Does your righteousness exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees? If not then as Jesus said, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. If you say it does, then How? What are you doing? You mean if Jesus said this, then I guess you must know many LDS who will not be saved accodring to this. So their must be another way, Right? If so, what is the other way to be saved?
Now the sermon says this
You mean JW’s and Muslims and Buddists and many other religions are not being persecuted? Now dont claim they are, but they are not being persecuted for righteousness’ sake, because I would bet if you asked them why they are being persecuted, they would claim its exactly for that reason.
Now in the sermon, Jesus goes onto say, You have heard it said, Do not commit adultary, Swear, look upon a women to lust, do not be angry, etc.
Honestly can you say, your so perfect you have never done any of these things? If you have say yes, then how did you manage to stay perfect? If you say, no I’m not perfect, then Jesus in the sermon said this
So are you perfect? If not why not? So then since your not perfect, how can you be saved? How can you be perfect? Jesus did say, If you break even one law, your guilty of breaking them all, and then we are law breakers. Once we are deemed law breakers, we can never go back to being as if we never broke the law, and so we cannot ever be perfect from things we do. More later.
Falcon,
You know as well as I do, Even if FoF lists all the questions, 1,2,3,4,5
He will still claim we did not answer him. But I say, it should be he answers our questions, one for one.
He still has not touched my question about why he uses atheists arguments and then leaves out information leading people to believe things about God that are not true.
He has not answered you on the subject of, where in written History do we find Chritianty, and he still has nor responded to Mike R or Old man, just to name a few. Like you, the only reason I keep replying is not because he will listen, but Im posting info so Lurkers can see and think for themselves.
FoF,
The Sermon goes onto say,
Ok, so your saying the sermon proves who is a true christian, so you mean Other religions Dont pay alms? If other religions do, does that make them true believers? Now I have already posted that your church requires that you must pay tithes,(Alms). So your church asks you, are you paying? If your not, thats not good, so since they ask, does that mean your not doing what Jesus said, since your not exactly doing it in secrect, and your letting your left hand know what your right hand is doing.
Now in the last few chapters, Jesus was telling us that our righteousness needs to exceed the scribes and Pharisees, and that we need to be perfect as our father in Heaven is.
But now Jesus says this,
He says we are evil, so if we are evil, how then can we be perfect or more righteousness than scribes and Pharisees?
Now you claim all the things Jesus said in the sermon prove who is a christian. Yet I pointed out that we are not saved by works, and even other religions and Atheists do these things. So tell me, where in the sermon, Jesus clearly states, you must do these things to be saved? He does not. But then you never mentioned Jesus saying this,
Jesus warns everyone that not everyone will be saved, because they will not enter the narrow gate. Now why would Jesus tell His followers this? Well He would say that for a few reasons. 1. Not Everyone that was standing around listing to Him was not a believer. and 2. We as His followers are to warn people not everyone is saved or will be saved.
Now I know someone already pointed this out and no surprise, you blew them off, but I want to touch on something they did not.
Jesus said
Notice Jesus warns us that these false prophets will come in sheeps clothing. First off, we christians are refered to in the Bible as Sheep, and Jesus is our shepard. Now where do you think the the false prophets get the sheeps clothing, that Jesus said, they come to us in? Did they buy it at the costume shop?
No, they needed to kill the sheep to get it, as we would not simply hand it over.
Now I already mentioned this and again you blew it off by saying I took it out of context.
Again, Jesus tell us, Not everyone that claims His name will be saved, so people can claim to be christian, and say, Lord, Lord, but that does not mean they know Him. He says, Only those who do the will of my Father will be saved. So whats the will of the Father? I already pointed that out, and that is to believe on Jesus.
Jesus goes onto say
Wow, Mormons and mormons prophets prophesy in the name of Jesus. And Jesus said, not everyone who does that will be saved.
Jesus goes onto say
Jesus says people claim to know Him, and have claimed to done works and prophesied in his name, yet Jesus claims He does not know them, and then calls them workers of evil. Wow, why would He say that, if everything in the sermon shows were believers.
Now let me finish with this, Jesus said
Now Jesus said that if you do His sayings, your like a wise man, Jesus did not say, if you do these sayings, You will be saved. Just becasue your wise, does not mean your saved, their are lots of really smart and wise people, but they are not saved.
FOF,
You say your answer is “Yes” to all of my questions. That’s what I am afraid of. You can’t really answer “Yes” to my first few questions AND my last one; They are mutually exclusive. And even if you meant all my questions but the last one, your leaders absolutely would not agree with you – as I have more than adequately shown in the quotes I used in a recent post.
OM: I am praying for your Ex. She is in a tough situation. But God will get her through it. My wife came out of Mormonism a year ago and felt the same pressures and fears, but God has been so faithful and she is so full of the Joy and Freedom that comes when you put all of your trust in Him. She loves our Mormons neighbors still, but has become very bold (but kind) in her responses to them when they still come around with cookies trying to invite our kids to Primary etc.
FoF: Is that your only response to everything I have written. Cheap response. You are only enhancing my premise that you only address that with which you are comfortable. You dare not answer questions such as whether or not my salvation is as good as yours, one of the first I asked in this thread that was not answered. (By the way, it is relevant if we are both Christians, and relevant if we are not.)
FoF: Ghandi, the Dali Llama, my neighbor down the street, a former boss and colleague. All of these generally follow most of the advise in the Sermon. Yet….
Falcon,
you asked me : ” Your comments to Fof F above leave me to ponder whether or not someone
like our Mormon buddy can be so totally naive and ignorant or is he just a troll coming here
making outlandish claims about things that Christians posters never said or intimated? ”
Well, I will say is that he too often gives his own opinion about Mormon doctrine and resorts
to innuendo and some very strained reasoning to try and prove his case . That was on display
in his last reply to me . Ironically, he has since said , ” Ok .Let’s back up ” , but instead of backing
up he proceeds with some more of his faulty assumptions in his post at 10:08 am yesterday.
Now he uses terms like ” abstract theological constructs ” ” abstract criteria ” ”
” mental abstract ” , ” abstract comments ” , ” mental agreement ” to bolster his arguments .
Won’t help him .
He mentions Mother Teresa . But according to his leaders she is a member of an organization
they believe is part of the church of the Devil/Babylon in these latter days we live —- and of
course all of us here are also part of that church as well !
He said to MJP , ” It is an arbitrary criticism that our gospel or my gospel is a set of rules and
regulations and customs . That is a common and convienent claim . But it is a simple opinion
without justification or support.”
Actually this claim does have support . I don’t know about ” customs ” but Mormon leaders
have described the gospel of Christ as ” a code of laws and commandments ” ; and told their
flock to be ” obedience to it’s rules ” . It’s also been described as a ” ladder” the rungs of which
are the rules, laws, regulations necessary to climb up in order to receive eternal life in heaven .
He also claimed that , ” So works do not save us at all . But they are required to strengthen and
‘ perfect ‘ our faith . And it is by faith that we are saved.”
Again, that’s more his own opinion . I find that what Mormon leaders have taught about this
would lead me to believe he is only giving is own opinion here , which is’nt unusual .
If by ” saved ” he means ” eternal life ” then it’s by faith AND works . Lot’s of works . These
are the laws , commands , regulations that a Mormon must do in order to” qualify” for eternal
life — according to Mormon authorities . However , this is not the authentic gospel of salvation
that Jesus’ true apostles like Paul preached —Rom 1:16 ; Eph 2:8-10 .
Lastly , when it comes to describing who is a “christian ” , Mormons have lowered the bar to a
level that would allow anyone who says they are a christian , or says they ” believe in Christ ” ,
to be considered a christian in their eyes . What this has produced ? Well , according to
Mormon leadership a christian is :
– a person who is lost and has no forgiveness of their sins .
– a person who belongs to religious man made organizations which comprise the church of the
Devil in these days.
– a person who talks of Jesus and believes in following His moral teachings but does not believe
He actually rose from the dead , or that He is God .
– a person who is not redeemed ( does not accept the Mormon restored gospel )
– there are other examples , these should suffice .
I have to think that the bar should be higher that this .
Mike R said,
“Lastly , when it comes to describing who is a “christian ” , Mormons have lowered the bar to a
level that would allow anyone who says they are a christian , or says they ” believe in Christ ” ,
to be considered a christian in their eyes.”
So true. If FoF can say that BOTH Mormons and Christians are Christians then surely he can say that Muslims are Christians as well (1 John 4.2-3). I would like to see FoF be consistent with his criteria and say that Muslims are Christians.
Have some integrity, FoF, at least a little bit.
Mike R:
I noticed that FoF seems to be saying that anyone who calls on Jesus name can be saved. If that is not what he means, then he needs to clarify. I doubt he will, though.
Further, his integrity is all over the place. I am not sure I would say he has no integrity, I don’t know him. But his arguments have been less than intellectually honest. I don’t know if that is intentional or not, perhaps it is blindness, but his avoidance of certain issues raises questions about sincerity.
FOF has said stuff like this so many times on so many different posts. About “doing”. He really likes to lead people to believe that traditional Christians just say “I believe in Christ, so that means I can do whatever I want.” Completely neglecting that people that believe in Christ become part of his body and works just come out of them out of love for their God and fellow man, not as a means of earning salvation. But FOF’s remarks aren’t even completely what Mormons mean by works. Mormon works are largely about performing Mormon ordinances. Then after the ordinances Mormons need to worry about other good works. Even a mormon who has lots of good works towards their fellow man can’t earn life with God. The ordinances followed by good works are what Mormonism teaches earn Mormons life with God. Also, in Mormonism you don’t even have to believe in God to be saved. everyone gets “saved” in Mormonism. But not all that get saved get life with God. Again, only the ordinances plus works do that in Mormon theology. So what does it mean to be Christian if you are a Mormon? If it means everyone gets salvation, then everyone but a Son of Perdition is Christian. If you mean that it’s about getting life with God, then only Mormons are Christian, in the Mormon mindset, because only they have the ordinances. It’s all so very confusing and all over the place. That’s why FOF can say phrases that seem to be saying one thing but are actually meaning something quite different.
Mjp,
I have no problem saying, fof has zero integrity. The bible records Jesus saying to people, you are of your father the devil. We are either children of God, or children of the devil. We have no middle ground or people running around fatherless. As the saying goes, who’s your daddy.
Fof has read my posts because he mentioned me by name twice, saying I answered him. So that tells me he read my reply to him asking him to tell me, did he really read the bible, and if so, then why did he leave out info leaving people to believe something that is not true about God? I pointed out that atheists do this all the time.
Or if he never read the bible, then he should not be telling people what it says. Now he has stated many timez, he loves the bible, studies the bible, and uses it. So that tells me, he purposely mislead people and refuses to answer me. That alone shows he is speaking his fathers native tounge as Jesus said.
You honestly cannot say, you love God, love his word, and study it, then mislead people by talking about something God did and leaving out info to the point that people will think a certain way about God, but if you gave all the info it would lead people to think differently about God, and in a more accurate way.
Then when asked about this about 6 different times, act as if it was never brought up. Thats deception and lies, where is their integrity in that?
MJP, Mistaken Testimony ,
each of those last points I listed about people are those who could be considered a” christian”
by the way Mormon leadership and other influencial Mormons publically talk of this . I have
a feeling though that what they believe in private might be different from what they say in
public. I think this all is become a greater issue in the last few decades because Mormon
leadership has been trying very hard to be accepted as just another christian church on the
block . They’ve done things like re vamp Temple square to look less ” Mormon ” and more
” Christian ” etc So this issue of who is a christian is another way they seek to assimilate .
The point is , to see what some Mormons have said about this issue is really not helpful .
I think a better question is : is MormonISM the only true church /gospel ? That goes
farther and is more objective in my opinion .
Keep on the firing line you guys ! The Mormon people deserve to hear the truth about
the need to trade the religion Joseph created for something better —- Jesus alone .
Jaxi,
You made some great points .
Silence from FoF today…
Rick, I get it. I do. I just don’t know the guy and have to concede he may not get what it is he is saying and arguing.
Mike– you’re right. Which is why I hope he answers the question about which version of salvation is correct.
RickB,
So I have “zero integrity?” So far, just on this thread, I have been told that I have zero integrity, I am deceitful, I am like the Riddler on Batman, that Jesus doesn’t know me, that I reject the Bible, I am ignorant, naive, and employ strained reasoning. On top of that, I am told that I only do good things so I can get power and glory.
That is just wonderful. It is always entertaining here. Not linear, coherent, focused, or objective, but certainly entertaining.
There are 13 critics who have responded to this article. And I am the only LDS person who has chimed in. So it may be just a tad premature to make conclusions about me being deceitful or lazy or thoughtless because I have not answered every question thrown at me. Can you show me how I have been dishonest RickB? In the home in which I grew up, having integrity was esteemed as the highest priority in a person’s character. I really cannot imagine throwing that accusation around in such a cavalier manner.
I will spell this out as clearly as I can. While some here have offered other scriptural passages in an attempt to explain that a person who follows Christ must believe He is the Son of God, nobody has effectively shown me how I am wrong in my interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount. I get that you disagree. But showing from the text how and why I am wrong is really what is needed to effectively counter what I have suggested.
If one does what Christ instructed in that sermon, he will be forgiven, be given mercy, be called a child of God, inherit the earth, receive reward in Heaven, etc. That is a pretty good description of salvation. Somebody suggested Gandhi as an example of a person who is not a “Christian” but who followed the Sermon on the Mount. And this demonstrates a fundamental difference between us. While Gandhi did not attend a Christian church while alive on this earth, I really have no concerns about his salvation because I believe the book is not closed at the end of this life for those who did not have the opportunity to really understand the gospel and receive the ordinances. I would be extremely surprised if this man Gandhi does not accept Christ in the Spirit world and that he will inherit the Celestial Kingdom. I am not his judge, but that is my opinion.
And by the way, go back and read my posts again- I never called any particular persons “apostates.” I referred to “apostate Christianity.” And I maintain that distinction. Apostate Christianity is that collection of creeds, doctrines, and tradition that has strayed from the true religion of Christ. So don’t get all worked up as if I called you personally swine or a gentile or a person going to hell. I’ll let the critics make those judgments in the short term and Christ the Judge in the long term.
I am very glad that judgment is not given to me or anybody here as to who is a true Christian. No modern person who calls themselves a Christian but who rejects the restored gospel has any more authority than any other person on the earth to make that distinction and judgment. It is cute to claim that you can trace your faith back 2,000 years. But making such a claim would require ignoring history. So go ahead if you wish.
In my opinion, which is based upon holy writ, a true Christian is a person who believes in Christ enough to follow Him in deed. It really is that simple to me. It is also my opinion that it is utterly Pharisee-like to try to draw boundaries between Christian and non-Christian based upon nothing more than theological constructs or intellectual conformity to creeds. Of course you will insist that being a Christian is obviously more than mere mental agreement. But that is the sole basis upon which you dismiss members of Christ’s latter-day church as Christians. So you cannot have it both ways.
And once again- the passage from 1 Nephi that you all love quoting (only two churches- church of devil and church of God) is a statement made in the context of a prophesy of the last days wherein a great division will occur. I don’t believe that has happened yet. So please lay off the superficial usage of that verse to claim LDS are doing nothing different than you are. It really only demonstrates the superficial nature of your understanding of that book.
MJP said
Speaking for my self only and not saying this is you, but here is my thoughts.
We know according to the Bible that their are false teachers and prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing that come to kill and destroy. We also know people are being decived and dying and going to hell.
I am not a P.C. kind of person, and I simply dont have time to play these games and sit here and say, I simply cannot call a wolf a wolf, or a false prophet a false prophet. I have a saying attached to all my emails, It says, Love that tolerates deception, is not love at all.
If anyone posting here really feels Mormonism is wrong, and they believe the Mormons leaders are false and the BoM is false, and that the Bible is true and they believe Hell is real and people are dying and going to hell, but then claim, I cannot tell a Mormon he is lying, or Mormons are not Christians, then to me either something is wrong with you, or your trying to be friends with the world.
Jesus said, the Gospel is an offence to those who are pershing. People simply cannot show me Jesus ever saying, Dont speak the truth for fear of offending someone. Or Jesus never said, Dont expouse wolves and false prophets.
I understand if a mormon or two shows up here and only posted one or twice and were getting to know them. But when someone like FoF shows up, Clearly has no clue about the Bible, gets called out on it and refuses to reply and has many times run away, as many here have said, besides me.
Then when almost everyone here claims he has ignored their questions, others besides me claim, he refuses to answer questions that he is not comfertable with, and others besides me claim he twists what they say, or others besides me claim he says they said things that they did not, then to me thats enough to say, hes a liar and a deciver.
If this was a court of law, he would be found guilty and no one would think twice. Like I said, we have people here believing people like FoF and will inturn both lead others astray and then die and face eteranl punisment. So where do we finally say, Truth should be more important and people being set free, vs a wolf or false prophet having their feelings hurt because we called them out for what they are?
I’m 43 years old, and growing up, men were men, had spines and spoke the truth and dealt with the issues, over the years I have seen the decay of this, men giving away their spines and getting wimpy and caring more about what others think than speaking the truth.
FoF said
Well Since you asked me. I will say this for about the 7th time, and maybe you will again ignore me.
Why did you use arguments about the flood of Noah that atheists use? Why did you leave out the part that tells us the ark took about 120 years to build. The people had 120 years to repent while the ark was being built and they could have entered and been saved if they wanted to. Yet your leaving this out leads people to believe God simply wanted to kill everyone with out mercy.
FoF said
The Bible does not teach that, why do you keep giving us your opinions and ignoring Scripture?
The Bible says
FoF said
Sounds like your saying works save us or play a part in our salvation. But as if you did not get enough verses that say Grace alone, here is another.
Notice it says Not by works of righteousness which we have done. Seriously, how much more clear can the Bible get?
Whoa, Rick, slow down. In no way to I espouse or allow FoF to get away with his beliefs. He is sadly mistaken and will find himself on the wrong side of hell. He is decidedly wrong. I find his tactics problematic, as there are so many important questions unanswered and ignored. He only responds to those things with which he seems comfortable. All of us can provide examples. Though he says he can’t possible respond to everyone and every question, we can all point to areas where he skips around and ignores heavier items.
I only say I am not sure he is lacking integrity because I give him the benefit of the doubt that he simply cannot address those topics without giving up his own faith. What he lacks is courage. Integrity may be a part of courage, but if his faith is solid then he should not be worried about his answers. Bushman, in the next posting by Sharon, seems to be able to admit the shortcomings and still have faith. So why won’t this man do the same?
RickB,
So because some people will suffer hell and there are false Christs, you can tell a person who disagrees with you that he has “no integrity?” That is a very interesting line of reasoning and rationalization. Because Christ was bold with people who opposed Him, you can be judgmental of people who disagree with you? Interesting.
You mention the flood. I am having trouble remembering ever using an atheist argument about the flood. Could you refresh my memory? Was it in the context of racism in the BOM? If that was the context, I would have been simply trying to apply the standard of the critics in judging the BOM to the Bible. It is an attempt to apply one consistent standard to both books- something that in my experience is not done by the religious critics of the BOM. As I have said many times- at least the atheists are consistent in their evaluation. The religious critics of the BOM are not consistent at all- they have completely different standards for judging the Bible vs the BOM. Is that the conversation to which you refer? If not, I have no idea what you are referring to. I am not understanding how you are concluding that I am dishonest here.
And my belief about the Spirit world is perfectly consistent with the Bible. But that is not the topic or within the scope of this conversation.
Hebrews 9 does not say that a person’s judgment occurs immediately after death. After death- yes. Immediately after- it doesn’t say that. You, again, are forcing something into the text that is not there. Using your logic to interpret this verse would contradict so many of the passages of the Bible that speak of hell or Sheol. Christ clearly went to “prison” to teach the souls there after His death and before His resurrection.
And as far as works saving us- sigh…… Our works do not save us. But they strengthen and “perfect” our faith. And we are saved by faith in Christ. Otherwise, you are saying that would Christ said in the Sermon on the Mount was false. Is that what you are claiming?
FofF
Have you ever read the BofM I mean really read it? I’m not a Mormon, never have been & never will be because I know the truth but I have read enough of the BofM to know that LDS doctrine cannot be found within it’s pages. Have you ever read Third Nephi Chapter 11 Fof? If so you will know that Christ is talking about HIS doctrine. A few posts back you mocked among other things, the doctrine of the Trinity Here’s what Christ says in third Nephi 11:36
“And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; FOR THE FATHER AND I, AND THE HOLY GHOST ARE ONE
Did Christ change His mind, did he suddenly realise a little while after that translation that He & the Father were NOT one after all? The fact is, Smith copied so much from the Bible that the BofM can NEVER give rise to present day LDS teaching.
What does Third Nephi 11:37-40 say?
“37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and a become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that THIS IS MY DOCTRINE. AND WHOSO BUILDETH UPON THIS BUILDETH UPON MY ROCK AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST THEM
40 AND WHOSO SHALL DECLARE MORE OR LESS THAN THIS AND ESTABLISH IT FOR MY DOCTRINE THE SAME COMETH OF EVIL, AND IS NOT BUILT UPON MY ROCK: BUT HE BUILDETH UPON A SANDY FOUNDATION AND THE GATES OF HELL STAND OPEN TO REVIEVE SUCH when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
That then is Christ’s doctrine, it is no different in essence to John 3:16 & to Peters declaration in Matthew 16:18 & if a man would be a Christian by following the ‘most correct book in the world’ then he cannot be a Christian by following LDS doctrine.
Let’s look at verse 40 once again
“AND WHOSO SHALL DECLARE MORE OR LESS THAN THIS AND ESTABLISH IT FOR MY DOCTRINE THE SAME COMETH OF EVIL AND IS NOT BUILT UOPN MY ROCK;”
Hasn’t the LDS, ‘the one true church’ done exactly that?
If Joe Smith hadn’t decided to join the Marvel comics brigade & get into ever more fanciful & fantastic ideas concerning God & salvation then you my friend could perhaps have been a Christian, as it is your beliefs concerning the true nature of God & His son are so far removed from the truth, so deep into the realms of fantasy, that while you stand by them you can never be a Christian. It gives me no pleasure at all to say that but it is the truth & your last post confirms it.
FoF, you really need to believe what you want and ignore the Bible.
In Hebrews it say, you die, THEN JUDGMENT.
It does not say, You die, then you get another chance to hear the gospel, then hours, days, weeks, or even years later you get judged.
also Mormonism teaches that their are 3 differant levels of heaven, who goes their and how God and Jesus wont be in the lowest level. You cannot support any of that from the Bible, or the BoM. Yet you still believe it. Sad.
MJP said
I never said you did, I was only speaking for myself, and simply saying that I notice and have noticed over the years on many blogs, website, in real life talking with people and tv and raido, men no longer being men, and people being afraid to speak the truth for fear of offending someone.
I hate to say this, but even in my Church, Men are wimpy and spinless. Here is a great book I sugest every guy on this blog read, does not matter if your Christian, LDS, Athiest, Etc.
It is called, “What the Bible says about being a man” Author J.Richard Fugate
The reason why I say men in my church are pansys and wimpy is the vast majority of men in my church refuse to read that book. If you call yourself a christian and you wont read a book about being a man based upon what the Bible says, then that speak a lot, at least to me. But I sugest you read the book, if you cannot get a copy, or cannot afford it, let me know, I will send you a copy. I bet it will be a real eye opener.
FoF,
You said, “I will spell this out as clearly as I can. While some here have offered other scriptural passages in an attempt to explain that a person who follows Christ must believe He is the Son of God”
Note that I have not provided any scriptural passages to show that a Christian must believe that Christ is the Son of God. You continue,
“nobody has effectively shown me how I am wrong in my interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount.”
And here is exactly why I have not provided and scriptures. You have already acknowledged how easy it is for non-Mormons to twist scriptures, and yet you won’t allow for Christians to acknowledge how easy it is for Mormons to twist scriptures. And since your position is that Christ is NOT the Son of the Triune God, your choice to turn to the SoTM is clearly a smokescreen and a rabbit hole away from that point. These things smack against the soundness of your integrity. You continue,
“I get that you disagree.”
You just don’t get it, do you? Our different versions of Jesus are not trivial issues. Mormons and Christians define “Son of God”, “only-begotten”, and “first born” fundamentally different from each other. The fact that you are more concerned with the SoTM (which doesn’t even help you deny that Christ is the Son of the Triune God) than concerned about WHO Christ actually is speaks volumes and smacks further against your integrity. You continue,
“But showing from the text how and why I am wrong is really what is needed to effectively counter what I have suggested.”
And yet nearly everyone else here has debunked your twisting of the SoTM numerous times. But by focusing on the SotM (which is really a distraction from your point and you know it) is a divide-and-conquer tactic to avoid a wholistic approach to articulating your position against ours. If I were to take a page out of your book I would keep bringing everybody back to 1 John 4 to argue that Muslims are Christians rather than addressing the PERSON of the true Christ. This, also, smacks against your integrity.
FoF this is what you said about Noah that I took issue with.
When ever an Atheist mentions God destroying the earth with a flood, they never tell people that before God did that, God showed great kindness and mercy by giving the entrie earth time to repent.
God gave them 120 years and if they wanted, they could have entered the Ark and they would be saved. Sadly Atheists Awalys leave that out and lead people to believe God simply killed off everyone with no chance to be saved. Sadly You never mentioned that either, and that tells me you either never read the Bible, and were not aware of that fact, or you read the account and left out that information on purpose.
If you purposly left it out, then thats dectiful and leading people to believe something that did not happen. And you wonder why we feel you have no clue.
Rick, I hope you are not calling me weak or afraid to offend. I do, however, think it just as strong to grant possibilities that may not be comfortable. Hence my approach to FoF. Its not out of fear of offending him that I grant the possibilities.
By the way, you allude to my point when you go after him concerning the Flood story by stating: “Sadly You never mentioned that either, and that tells me you either never read the Bible, and were not aware of that fact, or you read the account and left out that information on purpose.” You have put together an either or scenario, precisely what I allow for: that FaithofFathers just simply does not know. It is entirely possible he just does not see, and that he cannot see, what it is that is going on within his faith, within ours, and the dynamics between them.
Now, I don’t want to start a battle here, but I am not sure exactly how to take your comments to me. Just because we have different approaches does not mean one is less ‘manly’ than the other.
I come here to discuss my faith as it contrasts against Mormonism. I enjoy the chance to discuss how my Jesus is better suited to make a difference in our lives than is the Mormon Jesus. I enjoy standing up for my faith. I find Mormonism to be one of the greatest lies that someone might fall for and distract them from the true Jesus. I believe Mormons have an attractive presentation that sounds quite similar to Christianity, and this presentation needs to be countered with truth. I believe this strongly, and will fight for the truth.
Old Man- I have read the BOM over 80 times. I have studied it backwards and forward, literally, and have investigated every argument for and against it. Yes. I have really read the Book of Mormon.
Mistaken testimony-
Nobody has shown how my take on the Sermon on the Mount is incorrect. You guys talk a lot about how LDS don’t know the Bible. But the truth is that those here really struggle to understanding the meaning of a lot of the Bible. That has been a fairly consistent thing here. You have offered other scriptures and complained about my interpretation. But you really have not used the text to show that I am wrong. In fact, the critics here have taken portions out of context (as I predicted even) and argued that Christ meant something perfectly opposite what the text actually says. So no- you guys need to try again to understand the Sermon on the Mount.
RickB- I cannot possibly include every detail about every example from the scriptures that I quote. Yes- God wanted the world to repent and follow Him. But they didn’t. And as a result, the earth was flooded and the people were killed. What does that change? The atheist can try to make it look like God is mean and merciless by applying the same standards and arguments that you guys use to criticize the Book of Mormon. That is and was my point. Do you understand that? It is all about inconsistency and employing two different sets of standards to judge two books- the BOM and Bible. And you guys will never apply the same standards. And that is why I so consistently point this out. But some people like to charge me of slamming the Bible. But that is just a pathetic and weak attempt to discredit the argument.
Consistency- absolutely necessary in pursuing truth.
“Our works do not save us. But they strengthen and “perfect” our faith. And we are saved by faith in Christ.”
Yet… what happens if you don’t work?
Look, FoF, I don’t know if you simply don’t understand us, take us seriously, or are intentionally distort, but I do know you really have not addressed so much of the information presented to you. You’ve done it so much now it is hard to think it might be something other than intentional. I don’t know, I won’t accuse you of intentionally deceiving, but the possibility is there.
Having said that, it is clear productive discussion with you is nearly impossible. Your inability to grasp the most simple of our doctrine shows you have no interest in actually engaging in honest discussion. How many times have you been told, and referenced, that our faith is not an idle faith. It is difficult, and requires work to live a Godly life. Yet, you have accused us of being lazy and cheap, and that once saved we can do whatever we want. How many other items have we discussed with great clarity and quantity, and references, that you brush off?
I can only pray that you come to soften and actually understand that which we present. If your faith is correct, you have nothing to worry about by accepting us for what we are and accepting what we say our faith is for what it is. (Before you accuse me of hypocrisy, understand that I know you believe what it is you believe and don’t pretend to tell you otherwise. I see consequences, though, you apparently don’t, as evidenced by the questions of what happens when you don’t work, and the question of whether my salvation is any good in your faith, among others.)
A few things you can begin to accept and not fight:
1) Christians believe in a triune God.
2) Christians will work.
3) Christians believe in in salvation by faith.
4) Christians do not believe we can become literally like God, though we can enjoy his fullness in our lives.
5) Jesus saves us because we cannot possibly live a sinless life, and nothing we can do could ever justify us without Jesus arguing on our behalf.
That’s just a beginning. Christians are so much more than what it is you seem to think of us. While ultimately very simple, Christianity is a very difficult faith to live out. You have a distorted view of us, and of the ins and outs of our faith.
You don’t have to agree with everything. That’s up to you. But these discussions will never get any better or productive until you get out of your comfort zone.
FoF said
First off, I’m not buying this, If you cannot provide all the information, then you should not mention the verse(s). Second, if you claim you cannot, then that leaves open the issue of maybe you are taking things out of context. Lastly, if you write something out, do you stop and read what you wrote, then think to your self, How will people view this? The part you left out was so small a piece of information that I suspect you did it on purpose even though you will deny that. The part you left out, if you added that would only be a sentance of maybe ten words or so, so you cannot make excuses about how that is so everwhelming that you could not add it.
Now onto the issue of the sermon on the mount, in the article it shows a picture of the J.S.T. It’s worded as (The Bible corrected, by Joseph Smith).
I own the J.S.T, Why are you not using that and quoting that? Supposdly the Bible is corrput, mistranslated, and missing many plain and presious part. Their was a mormon who posted here, I believe his name was either Ralph, or Shem, who told me, the J.S.T is a correction of everything missing. I just sat down and reviwed the J.S.T. Wow, what a huge differance from the Bible to that. It really changes everything.
FoF: You say this: “But you really have not used the text to show that I am wrong” while saying that we use other scripture to say you are wrong. This tells me that you see us ignoring your view of the portion you quote alone. One thing you need to realize is that we don’t view single verses in isolation.
FoF,
You opened with, “Nobody has shown how my take on the Sermon on the Mount …”, then closed with, “… try again to understand the Sermon on the Mount.”
I rest my case. You refuse to talk about the wholly different versions of Jesus we have, yet you only want to talk about the wholly different interpretations of the SotM. That sums it up. When testimony gets involved all logic becomes malleable.
MJP Said
I’m not saying you are, I thought I was clear about that, Im saying many people are, and the Bible tells us to rebuke, and correct those in Error, and sadly many wont for fear of offending some one.
MJP said
While I agree that we can do this, Either, Or, Scenario with some of what he said, he also has said so much and done so much that he is aware of that this scenario does not apply.
Jesus did say, Be either Hot or Cold, But not Luke warm, Lest He spew you out of His mouth.
I have been guilty in my life of being luke warm, But that is rare and I strive not be be, I was saying that sadly many men now are luke warm and live that way. I dont know if you listen to Rush Limbaugh or Not, he mentions rather often Men being wimpy and how everyone is a victim.
Then when I grew up Good guys wore black, spoke the truth, Clint Eastwood, and Charles Bronsen type guys. Now we have shows like Modern Family and American Dad. I refuse to watch shows like that, but those types of shows are pushing how men should be now adays. But these are my thoughts on what I see with men in Socicaty, and I know from What I see and hear, I’m not alone in thinking that way. Thats one reason why that book I mentioned was written.
I also was not saying, read that book because your not manly, But even real men should read it, it really is an eye opener.
FoF, you said,
“You have offered other scriptures and complained about my interpretation.”
I have not offered any scriptures to rebut you gross interpretation of the SotM, I am actually staying on topic rather than following you down rabbit holes.
FofF said
“Old Man- I have read the BOM over 80 times. I have studied it backwards and forward, literally, and have investigated every argument for and against it. Yes. I have really read the Book of Mormon.”
Then why have you completely ignored what I said concerning Third Nephi 11? Just a day or two ago you mocked the doctrine of the Trinity yet in third Nephi 11:36 it’s there in black & white.
“36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; FOR THE FATHER, AND I, AND THE HOLY GHOST ARE ONE.”
Please respond to the other verses that I quote here again,
31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I WILL DECLARE UNTO YOU MY DOCTRINE
32 AND THIS IS MY DOCTRINE, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 AND WHOSO BELIEVETH IN ME, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, THAT THIS IS MY DOCTRINE, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And WHOSO SHALL DECLARE MORE OR LESS THAN THIS, and establish it for my doctrine, THE SAME COMETH OF EVIL AND IS NOT BUILT UPON MY ROCK; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.”
If that was true when the LDS was founded it most certainly is NOT true now, for the LDS HAS ADDED to Christ’s doctrine as found in your ‘bible’ the BofM
mistaken testimony,
I follow the Jesus that lived a perfect life 2,000 years ago, offered Himself a ransom for my sins, and rose from the grave 3 days later. Beyond this, and the fact that He was the Son of God, I really do not believe other more obscure details are relevant to salvation. Believing these simple truths enough to follow the things that Christ commanded is all that should qualify a person as a Christian.
A little ironic here, don’t you think, that you are criticizing my church for “declaring more or less than this?” Could it be that this is precisely what Christ was talking about- creating more criteria for who is a Christian?
MJP- yes. You guys do indeed view verses in isolation when they appear to bolster your trinity or saved-by-belief doctrines. And that is why you don’t really get or respond to my argument utilizing the Sermon on the Mount. Every verse you folks have offered can be shown to mean something different than you are claiming when the broader context is understood and read. Besides, the Sermon on the Mount should stand on its own- three chapters, very clear doctrine from the Master. Do you really need outside passages of scripture to understand that sermon? Christ very clearly stated that a person who follows His instructions in that sermon is building his house on a rock. And that “rock” is very clearly Christ. Yet you guys are claiming that a person can do all of those things and believe that Christ is the only Savior and means of salvation, yet not be a true Christian. And I cannot think of a more ridiculous, Pharisee-like belief in the Christian world.
FoF,
“And as far as works saving us- sigh…… Our works do not save us. But they strengthen and “perfect” our faith. And we are saved by faith in Christ. Otherwise, you are saying that would Christ said in the Sermon on the Mount was false. Is that what you are claiming?”
You keep making these ridiculous statements. Mormonism does not believe anything like this. “Saved” in Mormonism is entering a kingdom, any of the three. You can basically do whatever you want short of becoming a son of perdition and be “saved.” Now if you mean life with God as salvation, you are still wrong. A person could follow the Sermon on the Mount in every detail and not achieve life with God in the Mormon plan of Salvation. ORDINANCES are required as the good works to achieve life with God and then some good deeds on top of that. MORMON ORDINANCES in particular are REQUIRED before the teachings in the Sermon on the Mount even matter.
You seem to be here to defend Mormonism. But really only defend and to try to block the light from the dark corners in Mormonism. The problem with this, in your defense you neglect to properly teach Mormonism. you keep talking about the sermon on the mount. It’s crazy talk because Christians believe in following the sermon on the mount. you seem to be implying that Christians teach that the Sermon on the Mount is not important. but this is completely silly. It doesn’t accurately portray Christian thoughts on the sermon on the mount and it also doesn’t accurately portray Mormon thoughts.
Which are: The Sermon on the Mount doesn’t matter when it comes to Mormons believing they achieve life with God UNTIL they perform their sacred ORDINANCES. Why have you neglected this topic?
If you have the “one and only” true Christian Church then why have you not brought up that these mandatory ordinances are needed for life with God. It seems an important topic if you are the true Christians. You seem to be really stuck on the good deeds part, but again, this does not accurately portray mormon thought on good works.
your integrity gets called into question because you deliberately leave out important details.
“I follow the Jesus that lived a perfect life 2,000 years ago, offered Himself a ransom for my sins, and rose from the grave 3 days later. Beyond this, and the fact that He was the Son of God, I really do not believe other more obscure details are relevant to salvation.”
By ‘other more obscure details’ you must mean LDS doctrine, because what you have said above is exactly what Christians have been saying for the last 2000 years. You are in effect saying is that a man does not need the LDS organization for salvation, any church will do, & that being the case would you mind telling everyone here why your so-called restoration was necessary when clearly it was not.
Actually you don’t need to explain or tell us anything, we know why you say such things, it’s called deception, something the LDS is renowned for. Its an attempt to make the LDS ‘appear’ Christian by changing the meanings of words. For example, what you said above does, on the face of it, sound very Christian-like, but upon closer examination we find it’s very ‘un-Christian’ because the LDS definition of salvation is very different to the Christian definition.
Unlike the teachings of the New Testament, LDS salvation simply means being resurrected into a choice of afterlife’s, it doesn’t necessarily mean being with God at all & that is precisely why you cannot call the LDS organization Christian. Christian Salvation means nothing more or less than being with God in Paradise.
So, May I suggest that in future, if you must use Christian words, please be good enough to define them so you do not mislead the people who come in her seeking the truth.
Ps. I’m still waiting for an explanation of why the doctrine of the Trinity appears in the BofM
Old man,
Thanks for the response.
My point was about the criteria for being a Christian. My mistake. To be a Christian, a person should believe the basic things I described above- believe that Jesus Christ is the only means of salvation and follow His teachings in the Sermon on the Mount. Sorry for the confusion.
Doctrine of the trinity in the BOM- you are simply reading those passages as a trinitarian. I read those passages and see the Godhead. God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are one God. But they can also be referred to as Gods independently as well. It really is not that complicated- much, much less so than the trinity in my opinion.
It is a weak and pathetic maneuver to just fall back to the accusation that somebody you either don’t agree with or do not understand is a liar. I suggest a little more humility and willingness to learn about other people and their perspectives rather than such a small view of others.
FoF:
You: “Besides, the Sermon on the Mount should stand on its own- three chapters, very clear doctrine from the Master. Do you really need outside passages of scripture to understand that sermon?”
Me: When other passages say something different, then, yes, you do need them. Otherwise, you are doing the EXACT same thing you ACCUSE us of doing.
I notice that you continue to ignore the questions I have asked several times now and issues I continue to bring up. Is this intentional? Or do you really not see how they are important?
Rick: I agree on being men, which is why I was not sure if you were accusing me of not being a man. Boldness is something that is not really asked of men anymore. I have not read the book you suggested, but I will see if I can find it.
In the Christian world, it seems to show up in the form of men being too ‘nice’ and ‘meek’. I believe there is a misunderstanding of the words meek and humble, as neither of them require us to be mice. I believe this is relevant to apologetics, especially with LDS, so that we can adequately call out false beliefs. Sometimes, that requires being strong and forceful.
LDS are not Christian, at least not Christian in the way we are Christian. Their use of the term to describe themselves only confuses things for those who do not know. This is a problem, and probably my biggest complaint with LDS. I would be more sympathetic to their existence if they did not make that claim. However, they do, and it requires action to combat the false information.
All my comments seem to go to moderation for awhile so I’ll see if this one goes through as I have one pending but…
FoF,
You said, “To be a Christian, a person should believe the basic things I described above- believe that Jesus Christ is the only means of salvation and follow His teachings in the Sermon on the Mount. Sorry for the confusion.”
This takes Mormonism out of the equation by your own criteria. Or do you mean entrance into one of the three kingdoms when you say salvation? You really must be clear because Christians don’t view life without God as salvation. Life with God is not included in everyone’s Mormon salvation. And Mormonism means that essentially you can do what ever you want, not even believe in Jesus and be “saved.” last kingdom can even deny Christ, they just can’t deny the Holy Spirit. but if salvation means celestial kingdom to you than, Jesus Christ isn’t the only means of salvation. So are your ORDINANCES and WORKS. Your the one that put in the word only in your definition.
FofF
Thank you for your explanation of Third Nephi 11, I don’t agree with you but there is little point in debating it.
However, what I said in my last post concerning salvation is vitally important & is not so easily dismissed. You said this:
“It is a weak and pathetic maneuver to just fall back to the accusation that somebody you either don’t agree with or do not understand is a liar. I suggest a little more humility and willingness to learn about other people and their perspectives rather than such a small view of others.”
I was not manoeuvring & I accused no one of lying. As regards humility or willingness to learn, well, that smacks a little of hypocrisy. Anyway, you misrepresent me; I said the LDS is renowned for its deception. That subject is unfortunately outside the scope of this discussion but should you wish I could prove it to you very easily by drawing on my own experiences.
I also said that using words such as ‘salvation’ whilst knowing full well that the LDS definition is different to that of Christians is DECEPTION. That is not open to debate it is a fact. If you persist in using the word ‘salvation’ & do not wish to be accused of deception then you should make it clear to everyone reading these posts that by ‘salvation’ you mean something very different to the Christian definition of the word.