Once-official LDS history and doctrine is undergoing some hefty rewrites via the new Gospel Topics essays at LDS.org. As previously little-known information about Mormon history and doctrine has become available online, many Latter-day Saints are experiencing crises of faith when they learn of major discrepancies between what they have always been taught in the Church and what they have discovered on the internet. The Gospel Topic essays seek to fill a need for questioning Mormons to “read accurate information and be able to seek to understand those historical chapters in the context of time and place and understand that those answers have been approved by the presiding brethren of the church. I think that will give many of our members confidence that they can rely on these answers,” explains Church historian Steven E. Snow (“Understanding of Events in Church History: What about historical questions?” video).
As these essay answers generally do not consider or address the conflicting teachings of past Mormon prophets, seers and revelators, the following suggested rewrite of the beloved Mormon hymn, “We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet,” has been proposed by Mormonism Research Ministry.
We Thank Thee, O God, for Our Scholars
We thank thee, O God, for our scholars
To guide us away from GAs.
We thank thee, O God, for revisionists
To lighten our minds with their tales.
We thank thee for their clever wording
That sounds normal to the nations.
We feel it a treasure to have them
And rejoice in their obfuscations.
When dark clouds of history hang o’er us
And threaten our faith to destroy,
There is hope smiling brightly before us,
Our deliverance by scholars is nigh.
We doubt not their words to distract us,
Their talent in changing the past.
The critics who challenge our stories
Will surely be silenced at last.
We welcome our well-crafted essays
We’ll praise them by day and by night.
We’re thankful, O God, for our scholars
Who keep our past well out of sight.
Thus happy and heedless to problems
We will doubt our doubts as we’re told,
Dismissing the words of our prophets
Happiness is in what we don’t know.
“Let me say with all the intensity I have
that nothing will hurt you more than what you don’t know.”
–Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland–
(“The Justice and Mercy of God,” Ensign, September 2013, 20)
“Trust the leaders. They will never lead you astray.” “When the leaders have spoken, the thinking has been done.”
This pretty much describes the mind-set of a true believing Mormon.
Let’s face it. We can blame the false prophets of Mormonism and the revisers of reality and spinners of truth out there in SLC but at a certain point, the individual Mormon has to take personal responsibility for what they believe and accept from the the organization.
I don’t know if the average Mormon is frightened into investigating their religion, if they are brain-washed dupes or if they are simply intellectually fat and lazy. Or maybe they just really prefer to believe the sanitized version of reality put out by the LDS church because it allows them to maintain their emotional equilibrium and contentment.
It’s all about what people choose to believe. If Mormons accept the idea of modern prophets and a “one true church” they’re pretty much going to fall into line and accept anything these prophets, past and present, do and say. The problem comes when they come across another version of the narrative which is at odds with what they’ve been taught. Now, who to believe? I’d say just read what these guys like Smith and Young did and said and examine with an open mind the history of the sect.
I’ve recounted my story here of being in the “murder room” of the Carthage Jail surrounded by TBMs. I asked, “What was the precipitating event that led to Joseph Smith being jailed?” Right on cue the faithful reported that it had to do with persecution. There you have it. The persecuted prophet being crucified. I left it at that but it gave me an insight into what these folks sincerely and devoutly believe and more importantly, feel. I didn’t think it was the place or time to burst their bubble but in some ways it was the place and time.
I was in the Christian outreach center in Nauvoo where, in the back, they have displays that pretty much do a lot of debunking of the Mormon narrative. Interestingly enough, there are Mormon visitors that head right for that section that is sort of in the back not easily visible from the entrance. These folks have reached the contemplative stage where they are beginning to realize that things aren’t quite right and they’ve determined to get at the truth.
I think the current attempt to inoculate the believers from the truth by providing a church approved presentation of the narrative will provide some Mormons who like Mormonism with the rationale they need to keep in the program. Unfortunately for the “one true church” they can’t isolate and keep those with integrity from finding out the real story.
The LDS church is hemorrhaging members. I don’t think these attempts to spin the narrative will stop the flow.
LOL
Nicely done rewrite of a popular LDS hymn 🙂
Sharon,
Very cute ridicule. It certainly helps to be 2,000 years removed from leaders/prophets/apostles that we LDS believe live today. At least it makes it easier to romanticize and idealize.
falcon- you say “the LDS church is hemorrhaging members.” Do you have any reason to think losing faith is peculiar to our church? Is this not happening to all Christian churches in Western society?
The difference being that when Christians leave other churches, their lives aren’t completely turned upside down by fear, abandonment, shunning, ostracizing, divorce, abuse.
The biggest “recovery from (fill in the blank religion) is always Mormonism. The only people who have the same kind of “exmormon” type of experiences are “exmuslims”.
There was even an article recently about the similarities between the two groups. I need to go find it.
Sharon, that hymn should be changed since it is at the heart of why Mormons need our help—
they’re victims of what Jesus warned would happen to those who have a desire to follow Him
but who get detoured by latter days imitators of His true apostles and end up being fooled
into accepting a imitation gospel .
It was’nt ridicule at all . It was a reminder particularly worded to get Mormons attention to
help them see what’s going on right under their noses . Since they are so busy with their church
activities and the endeavors of everyday life , it can help to get their attention and cause them
to think about the organization they find themselves in .
Well FOF,
Thanks for agreeing with me. We’re making some progress with you. The LDS church is known for cooking the books when it comes to membership. They were shouting from the top of the LDS temple in SLC for years that they were the fastest growing church blah blah blah. Then to find out, that’s not the whole story. I think the actual number of active LDS folks is about one-third of the reported cooked number. A lot of people just walk away and never bother to remove their names from the rolls as I’m sure you know.
You’ve heard of “shaken faith syndrome” which is the label applied to members of the LDS church who learn that what they’ve been taught and not had “revealed” to them makes the church look incredibly dishonest.
I left the Catholic Church decades ago despite the fact that it is the one true church. I’m not on anyone’s membership rolls. I figure God sort of keeps track of those who are His by virtue of being born again by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. My faith in Christ is pure, true and right. I depend solely on Him for my salvation. No religious rules, regulations, prohibitions, meaningless rituals or rules of conduct. I think what Jesus taught is a pretty good message to follow. He’s the mediator between myself and the Father. His revealed Word provides me with the truth.
Come on FOF, you must admit that sort of appeals to you, doesn’t it? I mean, are you going to spend the rest of your life spiritually lost trying to defend a religious system that promises much but can’t deliver any of it.
Turn to the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Today could be the day of your salvation.
faithoffathers, you wrote:
I don’t understand the second sentence of your comment in the context of the “We Thank Thee” suggested rewrite. Please explain. Thanks.
falcon,
Every generation in the church has faced controversy, from the Kirtland Bank issue, the death of Joseph Smith, Polygamy, blacks and the Priesthood, same-sex marriage, etc. And in every one of those generations, there are those who choose to leave the church as a result of those difficulties and challenges. I see no reason to expect anything different today. What is interesting is that those who leave are replaced by new converts. That may sound cold. But it is the truth. It has happened every time.
The church is one of the fastest growing churches in the world (I am talking about mainstream/world churches). Do we face difficulties? Yes. Do some people choose to leave? Yes. Our growth rate does not prove anything. Neither does the fact that some people leave.
I find your comments (and similar comments from others) a little disingenuous considering the difficulty Christianity is experiencing in Western societies. People are leaving the church (meaning churches in general) at rapid rates. Survey after survey shows this consistently. I think it is small to cheer any church losing membership. I certainly do not cheer the loss of faith among Christian churches, even as I disagree with much of their doctrines.
Some of those surveys have suggested that the LDS church is not losing the younger generation to the extent that other Christian churches. Eighty two percent of evangelical ministers say that “their movement is losing ground.” A majority of evangelical youth are leaving their faith according to this research.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opinion/sunday/the-decline-of-evangelical-america.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/report-religious-landscape-study-chapter-2.pdf
I don’t think there is any reason to believe that loss of faith is peculiar to the LDS church. And it is never something to cheer.
Sharon,
I see why you would be confused- my sentence was poorly written. My intended point was that it is easier to see flaws and criticize those things that we stand closest to. And there is quite a distance between non-LDS Christianity and the apostles/prophets/leaders that are recognized as authoritative- 2,000 years distance. For LDS (and those who see the flaws of the church), there is much less distance between us and the same type of authoritative leaders- they live in SLC.
I suggest that a person could just as easily find flaws and complain about the leaders/organization/style of the early church if that person lived at the time of the early church. It is just a part of human nature.
We thank thee… for the Scribes and the Pharisees.
Scribes = Mormon Apologists
Pharisees = Mormon GA’s (Keepers of the Law)
FOF,
I don’t think the LDS church is playing a zero sum game. In-other-words the number coming in are replacing those leaving. The problem you folks have is that the word is out on the LDS belief system. It’s just too difficult to sell the “men becoming gods ruling their own planets” scenario. There’s a reason why the LDS church has to obfuscate, shade the truth, omit information and just plain make things up. This isn’t going to win converts or keep members in the church.
I’d hate to have to sell Joseph Smith putting his magic rock in his hat in order to interpret Reformed Egyptian off of some golden plates he dug out of the ground that weren’t even present when he pulled off this trick. Notice that this isn’t the picture the LDS church presents.
So how is the LDS church going to finesse these things in such a way as to not turn-off those they are trying to hustle into the fold?
You know as well as I do that Joseph Smith was not a prophet, that the BoM is not a true actual history, that the LDS church is not the one true church and that the Mormon prophet hears from God.
But you do know that Jesus is the Christ, the only Begotten of the Father (do you know what that means), that He died and shed His blood on a cross of shame to rescue us from spiritual death and that eternal life can be found only in Him.
God has brought you to this place and in this time to have the gospel preached to you that you may turn from your current path and receive the gift of eternal life He is offering you.
You need to spend less time trying to defend a false and dead religion and seeking the face of the Father who is drawing you to himself through the Holy Spirit.
I will pray for you right now!
Yes, but this was when the Church had almost total control over the media. That is why Church growth skyrocketed from between the 1970’s and the 1990’s. But since then, it has tapered off and is in slight decline. (I don’t think Mormons are leaving “in droves”) simply because many stay, for social reasons.
What changed? The Internet. Give it another decade and then we will really start to see what open access to the truth does.
Why should numbers matter? Shouldn’t it be about the truth?
falcon and grindael,
We all love our opinions. But your comments are little more than conjecture. It is obvious that you want to connect the dots in a way that supports your narrative about the church. But the truth of the matter is that there is not the evidence you wish there was to support a causal relationship between any change in membership and “the internet.” Similarly, there is no evidence to support grindaels ridiculous suggestion that people stay in the church for “social reasons” over faith and testimony. How is that any different than somebody in the church claiming that people only leave the church after committing big sins?
Ultimately, your conjecture is nothing more than your biased and hopeful opinion.
(I see you didn’t respond at all to my post about loss of faith generally- you will cling to your narrative to the death!!!!)
grindael- I do not doubt that it makes you feel good to compare various members of the church to scribes and Pharisees. That is easy and convenient. But it is intellectually lazy. Why don’t you study what it was that Christ criticized about the Pharisees. It is quite instructive to understand why that group of people were the recipients of Christ’s sharpest correction and criticism. And the basis for that criticism provides no justification for pointing the judgmental finger at leaders of the church or those who try to defend the church.
As a former member an ward clerk I knew the numbers, 600 on the roll , 135 at sacrament . Try 137 Elders on the roll, yet 6 total would show up, 4 of which are full time missionaries, time to wake up FOF and stop making excuses and rationalizing , but then again you are in the church and that is what you will do as long as your in it. Plus I was a stake ward clerk, those numbers are just as bad.
And this ward is about 30 mins from the temple, which only gets about 15-20 on a tues night, half are leaders from the ward.
I could go into home teaching numbers, baptism numbers, you name it FOF.
i close friend was in the Bishopric and left the church also knows the raw numbers.
And it is not the fastest growing church, nor is the church perfect and the people are not , nor is the church the same wherever you go.AND LAST BUT LEAST , it is not even close to being the ONLY true church.
Actually, FOF, I KNOW that people stay in the Church for social reasons. I am in many social media groups where Mormons admit it. So really, your disbelief doesn’t change the facts. The reason that this is different than you claiming that most of those who leave the church, do so because of sin, is that that is not true, while my observation is.
Start hanging out on John Dehlin’s pages (as one example) and get educated. You simply have no idea of the amount of Mormons that complain about the Hierarchy yet stay in the Church, who don’t believe in the BOM, etc. etc. This is because they usually have a lot of family in the church, and it an agonizing thing to leave and get shunned by your family, your bishop and your Ward.
And yes, I gave my opinion of the probable outcome of all this. Nothing wrong with that. I said give it time. You have lots of evidence presented to you FOF, like Marlin Jenson’s frantic 2012 statment that there hasn’t been an apostasy like this since Kirtland, the European Rescue Mission, etc., and the new essays. He even mentions Google in the news article. The essays were done, primarily because of the damage being done by people doing their own research on the internet and apostatizing. In fact here is an internal document that was released by the Swedes…
”The Swedish Rescue”
And this one…
Why do you think Jensen mentioned the Internet? You know, you should really research things better before you spout off. But then, your admitted bias probably keeps you from doing that. You accuse me of bias, but there is none there. I deal in FACTS, something sadly lacking in your approach. Can I make conjectures based on those facts? Sure, anyone can. Like I said, wait and see if I’m right or wrong.
As for the comparison of Scribes and Pharisees, if the shoe fits….
Documented
Mormon “Prophets” lie.
Mormon “Prophets” practiced institutional racism.
Mormon “Prophets” chose money over religious principle.
Mormon “Prophets” taught false doctrine.
Mormon “Prophets” bribed Supreme Court Judges.
Mormon “Prophets” received large salaries and then lied about it.
Mormon “Prophets” are “the Rich”, condemned by Christ.
Mormon “Prophets” have instituted Rules & Regulations in violation of the New Covenant of Christ.
Mormon “Prophets” are enforcers of “regulations” the same as the Pharisees.
Mormon Apologists now speak for the Church. (Scribes).
I can go on and on, and can document each and every one of those points. But then, when I do, you will simply give your opinion, sulk a bit and then move on to the next thread and start your cycle all over again like you did on the last thread.
Lather, Rinse, Repeat, FOF.
You are so predictable.
(I see you didn’t respond at all to my post about loss of faith generally- you will cling to your narrative to the death!!!!)
First, it was never “my narrative”. You are mistaking me for someone else.
Christianity is in decline in the United States. Worldwide, has different numbers. Facts are facts, FOF. I have no problem with them, as you do. What is there to respond to in relation to this? I read the Bible, so I know what Jesus said about it:
I’ve never made it a criteria that people leaving or staying in the church has anything to do with it being divine. There are lots of other faiths that have huge numbers. But people ARE leaving the church because of the knowledge of the truth they learn on the internet. THAT is a FACT.
I was simply adding a little truth to what you said about Mormonism, and NEW CONVERTS. The whole scenario you describe has changed with the birth of the internet. Even your leaders see that.
Just posted in our Mormon Historians Group by the woman who was interviewed by the NY Times…
” O God We Thank Thee for —–JESUS the prophet ” . Jesus is head of His church , and when
He established His church the officers who serve in it were faithful to preach the truths about
Him and how to saved —Rom 1:16 ; Col 1:23 . Thankfully we have this to serve as our
safety net in these latter days to evaluate those men who appear on the scene claiming to
have been appointed by Jesus to His prophet He speaks through to pilot those in His church
to know His will and be assured of sound doctrine . This one man will also head God’s earthy
kingdom according to those who follow Him . This is Mormonism , and it’s leaders are merely
among the other latter days prophets around us who make similar type claims of exclusivity .
Latter days false prophets like those to run the Mormon church have to get creative in their
advertising in order to gain the attention and garner the confidence of people they attempt
to sell their product to . Hence it is a common tactic to say that since God used prophets like
Moses in the O.T. then He repeated that pattern and picked a man to lead His people in these
latter days commencing with restoring the very same church that Jesus had established 2000
ago through His apostles who had been sent out to teach about Him and salvation ( Rom 1:16) .
So Mormons use New Testament verses about church offices in Eph 4 as well as verses that
speak of faith , baptism , receiving the Holy Ghost etc to seekers . This puts interested persons
at ease since they trust the New Testament .
That sure captures the attention of a sincere seeker . But the person who buys into that claim
is unaware of the Mormon twist to it , namely , that it contains half truths . A carefully
packaged imitation like Paul warned of in his day , and that warning is still appropriate today .
Recap: the Mormon church’s claim of a complete apostasy after the death of Jesus’ original
apostles from the gospel they taught and of His Church is false , therefore no restoration .
Mormon leaders have been guilty of mixing in their own ideas to what the New Testament
apostles taught and cleverly packaged that as the gospel ” restored ” . These latter days
apostles have done this to how the church was structured in the N.T. and also to the gospel
of salvation it reveals . They have not restored Jesus’ church in exactly the same form as it
existed 2000 years ago , but they have used half truths in order to gain the confidence of many honest seekers into thinking they have .
FOF,
The reason I didn’t comment on people leaving the various denominations of Christianity is because I really don’t care. It’s meaningless except for those who count noses, which is what the LDS church does and that’s why I brought it up. They make a huge deal about it with their inflated head count.
“The Church”, as I have pointed out endlessly on this blog, is the Mystical Body of Christ made up of all born again believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. I’m not on any church’s head count. That was my point. I don’t get counted. Do you see the difference? My name is written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. I don’t think God regularly publishes the number in that Book.
So if someone does or doesn’t sign on to a formal church is immaterial as far as I’m concerned and comes up only as far as the LDS church wants to make some great claim.
Now to another point. Have you come to any conclusions, now that you’ve been here a while, why the former Mormons who post here left the LDS church? When you first showed up here, you made a big to do about these folks leaving probably because they stopped reading the BoM. As we know, that’s one of the boiler plate explanations along with a couple of others. That didn’t really hold up and just demonstrated that you’re just a walking LDS cliche.
So why have grindael, johnnyboy, Ironman, Kate et al dumped the LDS program and walked away? Do you have a new theory? grindael is a prolific researcher and writer and contributes his fine scholarship here and buries you with it on a regular basis. Why is he doing this? Do you think he’s a tool of the devil or a son of perdition?
Here’s the thing. I don’t think you can continue here without getting flipped. At some point your shelf will get too heavy also. It happened with Lynn Wilder who contributes articles here and was a professor at BYU.
I continue to pray for you that you will come to know the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior and in knowing Him will receive the gift of life the Father is offering you.
Ironman,
And I know the numbers for my ward currently. 504 members. 70% Sacrament meeting attendance. 85% of endowed members have current recommends. Consistently 70-90% home teaching (in both EQ and HPG). What does any of that prove? Am I naive enough to think a sample in my own ward or stake represents the whole church? No. Are you naive enough to think your experience can be projected onto the whole church?
I never denied the fact that there are people leaving the church. I pointed out the lack of good, objective evidence to support the conjecture of the rabid critics here and pointed out the hypocritical nature of the cheering the loss of faith. With all Christian churches losing members, what is it that allows you to conclude that the LDS church is somehow different because those leaving our church are discovering the church is not true. That is certainly the narrative of the critics, and they will demand it is true in the absence of objective data till death.
I just love this logic- people are leaving the LDS church because they know it is false. But people are leaving other Christian churches because this is simply a fulfillment of prophesy from Christ that the gate is narrow to eternal life. This typifies the thinking and logic of our critics all too well.
grindael- I am well aware of Elder Jensen’s comments and the efforts in Sweden. I am familiar with John Dehlin’s work. What do those things change? Maybe we are one of the only one’s who recognize and admit the problem of people losing faith. Judging by the comments in places like this, one would think Christianity in general were busting at the seems with new converts. Do you think the internet does not play a role in other Christians doubting the Bible and the faith claims of Christianity? I suppose you are that gullible
It is so typical and naive of you to say that in essence that “you know people” who are staying in the church for X,Y,Z reasons. As if you can project your limited anecdotal evidence onto a group of 15 million people. Some leave for intellectual reasons. Some leave slowly as a result of laziness and apathy. Some people leave after being excommunicated for committing adultery. Some people leave because they think the church is wrong about same-sex marriage. Some people leave after discovering issues with Joseph Smith. It is so ridiculous to try to fit all these individuals into a narrative that fits your pathetic campaign. But that is what you do.
That is a clever list of talking points about the church and its leaders.
Now, about that analysis of Christ’s criticisms directed toward the Pharisees……..
Data mining does not a researcher make. Not by a long shot.
It’s fairly obvious from FOF’s comments that he has no idea that there are whole websites devoted to non believers who attend the LDS church. They are some of the most popular mormon sites. That’s not even including John Dehlin’s webpage. FOF doesn’t even want to admit that his own leaders are openly talking about the members leaving in droves!
All this tells me is that FOF is a classic mormon who is out of touch with what is really going on and is busy plugging his ears and singing “lalalalala”. These type of mormons are slowly having to come to grips with a new reality that they have never had to face before.
This is due to the generational gap from the mormons who were proud of being a”strange” and “peculiar” people, to the youth of today who have a strong desire of belonging and acceptance within a larger world. This is not endemic to mormonism, but is something that millennial’s are changing in everything they do. The younger generation wants inclusion as opposed to exclusion. I witnessed this first hand within the music industry over the past 10 years.
I believe the LDS church recognizes the shift, but they are stuck trying to keep the old guard pacified. The leaders of the church have even admitted that one of the main purposes of the new “essays” is to inoculate the youth! They don’t care that it throws the old timers under the bus. Those mormons are already locked in.
This is why it’s humorous to people like myself who grew up in between these different generations. I remember how the world was pre-internet and how it was a badge of honor to be peculiar. Now every mormon kid wants to be christian! GASP!! You mean kids want to be part of the whore of the earth?? wha???
Watching the mainstreaming of mormonism is one of the most entertaining spectacles I have ever witnessed in my entire life. It’s only gonna get better in the next few years. I’ve got my popcorn ready.
“It is so typical and naive of you to say that in essence that “you know people” who are staying in the church for X,Y,Z reasons. As if you can project your limited anecdotal evidence onto a group of 15 million people. Some leave for intellectual reasons. Some leave slowly as a result of laziness and apathy. Some people leave after being excommunicated for committing adultery. Some people leave because they think the church is wrong about same-sex marriage. Some people leave after discovering issues with Joseph Smith. It is so ridiculous to try to fit all these individuals into a narrative that fits your pathetic campaign. But that is what you do.”
This is really rich coming from the guy who was positive that the only reason people leave “from his experience” was because they stopped reading the book of mormon.
PROJECT MUCH, FOF??
I am literally typing with my mouth open at your blatant hypocrisy.
Maybe there is hope for FOF now that he can admit people leave for reasons other than “sin”. Maybe the doubt your doubts talk actually sunk into his brain!
Johnnyboy,
I was thinking that there is a limited set of people who are going to join the Mormon lodge. Membership in the Masons is also declining. Seriously, who’d want to do LDS style Mormonism. How many (young) people are going to want to dress-up in funny costumes and do these rituals in temples and go through the temple recommend process and pony-up 10% of their income for the privilege. Not many. Maybe kids who’ve grown up in the sect would have some interest, but not others.
The church I attend came up with a third alternative service a couple of years ago that is basically packed with college and high school students and other young adults. My wife and I, being Baby Boomers, are among the older adults who attend this service. I like it, at least in part, because of the informal setting. The real bonus for me is that the music is all praise music and the preaching is straight-out of the Word of God. No compromise on the message. The reaction of the attenders, and I’d say it’s in the 250 range consistently, is reverential and focused on praising the Lord Jesus Christ.
My point? Andy Watson told me that he never attended an LDS Sunday church service that wasn’t like a funeral. Besides getting past the weird and wacky aspects of LDS style Mormonism, young people aren’t interested in boring recitations of Relief Society statistics.
And the closer. The LDS church is not focused on the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has done for us through the substitutionary atonement. Mormonism is all about performance and earning your way to becoming a god. Put that up against the message of salvation revealed in the Bible, and the restored gospel has no chance.
So in addition to it’s history and 19th century doctrines and teachings of a bunch of false prophets, Mormonism is just plain boring.
@fof
No one is “cheering” the loss of faith. If anyone is “cheering”, it would be over the exiting of people from a proven fraudulent corporation masquerading as a religion. I would cheer that wether it was mormonism or any other fraud.
Most people in the christian community are allowed to research freely and decide if they want to align themselves and believe in a particular religion or church. Mormonism does not do this at all. It discourages, threatens, and scares people from researching and finding truth. Particularly within its own membership. Then hypocrites such as yourself try and cast aspersions on others when they do try and find the truth. It’s outrageous, insulting, and infuriating.
@falcon
The church has been boring for over 2 decades since “correlation” took over. The social aspect of the church has been crippled enormously. The only thing that kept me in was the doctrine! Shocking I know.
I actually attended some christian churches a year ago and the difference in the spirit and fellowship is SO different its shocking. Most LDS wards are so lifeless and absent of any friendliness. If they are friendly its strictly out of trying to baptize you. Once they realize that won’t happen, they drop you like a hot potato.
I recently dealt with an LDS mother who’s husband is not mormon. She called me out of the blue and told me how grateful she was that I had become friends with her husband. She told me that after meeting me he asked her “is that guy mormon? No way.. he’s not mormon. He is actually NICE to me!”
Turns out that everyone in this woman’s ward completely ostracized her husband to the point where he never felt welcome at all. He tried going for over a year but people were very rude and or cold. She literally was crying telling me this over the phone.
This happened in the same month that I left the church. I wanted to tell her “HE’S RIGHT! I’M NOT MORMON!” hahaha..
I just remembered how back in the 80’s my boomer mother was so upset that the church stopped her from singing the popular “I’m A Mormon, Yes I Am!” songs in primary. When I bring it up she still gets pissed.
That was when the “peculiar” era started to erode in the church.
FOF,
I’m wondering what your purpose is for being on this blog? Not that I’m wanting you to leave because if you keep showing up we can continue to minister the Gospel of Jesus Christ to you.
Since this blog is populated mainly by former Mormons, I’d think you’d try to reach out to them and try to turn them back to “the one true church”. Don’t you have an obligation to try? But you know what? I don’t think we’ve ever had a TBM try to convince the former Mormons to return to the LDS sect.
These former Mormons were as convinced as you are now that the whole package was true. But some research pointed them out of the sect. I bet in your current mind-set you can’t even conceive of a scenario where by you’d bid the LDS church a fond farewell. But it happens.
My only hope and prayer is that you’ll come to the Lord Jesus in faith and in so doing secure for yourself the assurance of eternal life through faith in Him.
The apostle Paul discusses in his letter to the Philippians how he out paced all those of his peer group in his religious observances and zeal. He concludes by saying it was all rubbish in comparison to known Christ Jesus Our Lord.
Perhaps you’ll come to that point where you know that your religious pursuits are also rubbish and you’ll look to Jesus the author and keeper of our faith.
Orlando Fla , not some small town FOF , major city , yet poor numbers . So what city are you in FOF ? I could also start reaching out to other EX Mo’s who know the numbers in there big cites . So are you in Utah , Idaho, AZ ? I am sure you are not in the east . The church is only strong in Utah with its high number of temples and buildings . And i use the word strong very weakly .
As of 2007, 60.7% of Utahns are counted as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, although only 41.6% of them are active members.
A majority of the state’s residents are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). As of 2012, 62.2% of Utahns are counted as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, although only 41.6% of them are active members.
These are not good numbers for its core and base of operations.
So from 2007 -2012 very steady and less that 50 % , So you are in a small Utah or Idaho town where numbers will go up. And when you go into bigger towns and out of the west the numbers disappear like the members.
The church will brag about its numbers , will hide its dollars it takes in , the bottom line, numbers do mean something.
ut people ARE leaving the church because of the knowledge of the truth they learn on the internet. THAT is a FACT.
Grindael, thanks for the time and effort you put it and sharing with us EXMO’S , I really look froward and still learn much of what you share here.
And you are dead on bullseye about the internet , its like waves , they are getting bigger .
I’m up in the north Dallas area and the growth is HUGE here because of all the transplants from UTAH! It’s like an invasion.
Before I left at the end of the year there was almost no room in my ward. My stake went from a tiny branch back in the 90’s to one of the biggest stakes with over 5 wards. My ward in the last two years grew so fast that there aren’t enough chairs in the overflow. EVERYONE is from utah. It’s like a completely different ward.
In the last 7 years.. around 5 convert baptisms. Which is actually pretty impressive, but most of those have gone inactive.
During the summer my ward is completely empty as all the members “go home”. North Texas might end up being the “new jerusalem” if things keep trending this way.
FOF,
Thanks for the compliment. As you must know, “Data mining” is,
Yes, I have an extensive data base of Mormon literature. It really helps to answer questions, and turn all of the data I collect into useful information that people here can understand and use. That is called giving them the “big picture”, as I have said time and again, something you know nothing about.
Oh FOF,
Once again you try to turn this around but are quite unsuccessful. YOU are the one who said that there was no correlation between the internet and people leaving your church. NOW, when I have presented the EVIDENCE to you, you, with a typical wave of the hand go… “oh I knew that…” Then, (and this REALLY cracks me up) you try the old tactic of the phony argument. You then put words in my mouth, acting like I said this DIDN’T happen with other faiths, when of course I said nothing of the kind. I told you to quote me, but you just can’t seem to grasp the concept of doing this. Are you really that lazy? No, I think that you LIKE deception and creating false dichotomies. It is the only way someone like you can keep your Cog Dis under control.
This, of course, is your way of coping with being totally wrong and embarrassed that I once again destroyed your false conjectures and conclusions. Then you call me names, because you HAVE to see me as a gullible guy who would not believe this, even though I said nothing of the kind and never even hinted at this. I think that secretly you are some kind of a masochist, because you keep coming back and subjecting yourself to this kind of embarrassment over and over again.
Actually, you didn’t READ and COMPREHEND what I said, and thus your rant above (once again) makes you look incredibly stupid and foolish. Here is EXACTLY what I said, FOF. Now PAY ATTENTION, because when you read this, you will understand why you can never win an argument with me. Ready?
People STAY in the Church IN SPITE OF all of those reasons I highlighted, and more (that is the etc.). I know of many, many married couples who are comprised of one disbeliever who stays in the church because of their spouse. This would be a “social reason”. I never said that people didn’t LEAVE because of those same reasons.
See, you flipped what I said. You are the one who brought up people leaving because of SIN. And of course your false dichotomy of “15 Million people” is simply a straw man. I venture to say that I know far more Ex-Mormons than you do, so I know more about why they leave. You, on the other hand, with your claimed bias, don’t believe anything that critics say, so how are you qualified to say anything about it? You aren’t. You are just the person saying, “no, no, no” but never offering anything else.
You’re a smart guy, FOF, aren’t you? At least you THINK you are. If so, then how can you trust any of the PEW polls that you love to cite, when they only do a small sampling of the total population to get their numbers? According to you, they would have to interview EVERYONE. John Dehlin has a great survey. Try reading it. Here is the main page with summaries and power point and video.
Yes, the talking points list that Jensen compiled IS very clever.
You also have not backed up ANYTHING you say with a SHRED of evidence. How telling.
Lather, Rinse and Repeat.
You do it so well.
LOL.
Of course FOF’s Ward has those nice high numbers, while everyone else is just making stuff up. With the amount of lies that I’ve caught FOF telling on this blog, what conclusion can we make about FOF’s numbers?
johnnyboy,
Reading FOF’s older comments is helpful. Here is what he says about people leaving the church,
And,
And,
And,
FOF’s hypocrisy is staggering. Everyone is dishonest… except him. As FOF just said,
@grindael.
His very first post to me here on mormon coffee was to tell me that I, and everyone who leaves the church, had stopped reading the BOM and that this was the true cause of our “apostasy”. Even though I had just outlined in detail to him my reasons for leaving the church, FOF was positive that it was my lack of reading the BOM that led me to sin (even though I had just finished reading it for the umpteenth time). He was sure of it from all his “experience”. What saddens me is this is the classic mormon cliche. You would think that someone who believes himself to be as smart as FOF professes to be would not fall into such a ridiculous caricature of the “judgmental mormon”.
You read about people like this on ex mormon forums and I really didn’t think they existed. Then people like FOF come along and prove that they do. The same thing happened with my parents when I revealed to them I was leaving the church. I was more upset that my parents were the epitome of the the cliche than I was of the extremely hurtful things they said to me.
FOF is an arrogant, disgusting person. And a racist. And a hypocrite. The commenters on here have shown endless patience in dealing with his outright lying, ad hominem attacks, and ridiculous straw men arguments. My concern with FOF is he may be someones EQ press, bishop, or stake president. That is a frightening thought.
His comments above about exmos who become evangelicals or atheists is disturbing to say the least (and extremely offensive). But what else is new?
FOF stated:
“But I personally know the background of departures of many such individuals from the church, and what I know suggests that there is a serious issue with honesty in every case I know of (lots). ”
I’ve found the exact same thing! Most people that I know have left over honesty issues. They found out their church was lying to them! It’s a serious issue in every case I know of (lots).
I know I find it hard to even imagine what a cult can do to the thinking process and emotional development of what we commonly refer to as “arrogant TBMs”. It’s quite astounding actually! There are TBMs that are naive and have a sort of innocent quality about them. Then you get the militants who I imagine have spittle draining off their computer monitors as they type their posts. Not a pretty picture.
Johnnyboy,
I’ve speculated that the arrogant TBMs that show-up here aren’t leaders in their wards. I don’t think the leadership has the time or inclination to post; mainly the inclination. What I think we end up with are these arrogant TBM types who are LDS apologist wannabees.
I really doubt FOFs academic and professional credentials. No one who is as learned in his field of endeavor as he claims could be so vapid and void of basic reasoning and ability to draw logical conclusions.
Perhaps he was a science nerd who struggled in other academic areas that are required in a venue like we have here. In-other-words, he’s out of his element.
This sort of reminds me of what they use to say about kids who start smoking pot at a young age and never get past the drug. They have arrested development. I think this is what Mormonism does to some people.
It is kind of an interesting exercise dealing with someone like FOF though it can also be frustrating. Denial, excuse making and the use of illogical arguments is what a true believing cult member does to defend nonsense like we see in Mormonism of this particular form.
I wonder if thinking like this could, over time, actually alter the structure of someone’s brain. It’s the only thing I can come up with that can account for the altered thinking processes and emotional instability of these arrogant TBMs. If that’s the case then we’re perhaps asking too much.
The first part of Sharon’s article says it all:
“As previously little-known information about Mormon history and doctrine has become available online, many Latter-day Saints are experiencing crises of faith when they learn of major discrepancies between what they have always been taught in the Church and what they have discovered on the internet.”
There’s the “BINGO” line. So we might ask, “What is the reason why the LDS church is having to write these essays?” They will say that it’s so their members will get the real story, the truth. But we all know the reason is that there is just too much documented information available on the internet today that provides members with a true version of what the LDS church would like to hide.
So they get out the old LDS spin machine with the bumper sticker that says, “Let’s see if we can put some lipstick on this pig!” In-other-words, can we expose this information without it doing the damage that is being done when people find it unfiltered and in its unadulterated form?
The problem for the LDS church is that members are going inactive in unprecedented numbers and people are just walking away. In areas of the country and the world where cultural and societal pressures can’t be placed on people in order to pressuring them into staying active, the LDS church has lost control.
Let’s face it. The LDS church is a drag. People want a life. Who wants a religious organization to control their time and their finances? Who wants to belong to a cookie cutter religion where you have to dress a certain way, talk a certain way and appear that your life is perfect?
There just isn’t enough of a payoff to warrant the sacrifice of being in the LDS church. So when people start figuring out that this is a bad deal, they’re gone.
In addition to all of this, just so many people are willing to suspend credulity and believe the Joseph Smith narrative. There’s a real impression among questioning Mormons that they’ve been lied to by the LDS church.
So it would appear that the LDS church is in some sort of panic mode because certain of its members are getting information on the internet, questioning or losing their faith, and walking away from the program. So the church felt it had to do something to stem the tide of a crisis that is taking place in the internet age.
One of the questions that I ask myself is, “Does the LDS church think that it’s members are being exposed to inaccurate or erroneous information?” That seems to be the articulated reason for putting out the essays. What may in fact happen is what’s happened when questioning Mormon go out on FARMS. John Dehlin points out that often times organizations like FARMS does more harm than good in their apologetic attempts. The reason is that the information they provide sounds just like all of the information put out by the LDS church that members have found inadequate, flawed and in some cases, childish.
In Christianity we don’t talk all that much about people leaving “the church”. Christianity is focused on a person’s belief and faith in Jesus Christ. I don’t know the numbers of born again Christians who stop believing in God, Jesus and the message of salvation.
It’s a little different prospect of someone leaving a religious organization as opposed to losing faith in Jesus as God incarnate. Catholics have had their own crisis in light of the priest sexual abuse scandals of the last couple of decades. I don’t know if folks who left the Catholic church because of this became atheists.
Whatever the case may be, what may or may not be happening in other religious denominations isn’t the same as what is happening in the LDS church. I think the difference is pretty apparent.
grindeal,
I recognized long ago that you really, really struggle with conditional clauses and qualifiers. And as a result, you misunderstand almost every single quotation or statement you post. And that is why your method of doing searches based on key words then posting endless quotations with those words rarely represent the real world. You feel good about your “research,” and your cheering section here loves it. But it is astounding to me how consistently you misinterpret the English language.
You so frequently misinterpret posts and statements, it is truly mind-boggling. Above, you claim I said that there was “no correlation between the internet and people leaving the church.” This is a perfect example of how you mix up the statements of other people and logic. I argued that there was not evidence to support your claim that the people who leave the church are doing so because of the internet (without appropriate qualifiers or conditional clauses, your statement is to be interpreted in a general way). Do you see a problem with the inverse corollary you mixed up? My arguing that there is not objective evidence to support your broad conclusion does not equal my insisting that there is no correlation or association. What kind of research do you do besides cutting and pasting statements of other people? Because it is very difficult to believe that your “field of research” involves any type of 1) statistical models 2) scientific method 3) methodical or systematic peer review or 4) systematic and consistent definitions. You are a guy with a database and the ability to cut and paste. But I don’t even think you know what constitutes a statement’s context.
My older comments you posted above are all in the context of subgroups of members and former members. But you guys almost never read critically for those things. I stand behind those comments without hesitation in their appropriate context. Do you understand what that means? It is apparent that some of those have been taken from their full context. But that is what you do.
Ultimately, we are speaking past each other. According to some here, I am a racist idiot who knows nothing about the church and is blinded by Satan. I have to remind myself that the reason for my being here is not to convince you guys of anything. It is to provide any lurkers here with an alternative perspective. By the way, you guys really need to look up the definition of a “hypocrite.” Grindael- that should help with your analysis of Christ’s criticism of the Pharisees.
FoF:
“It is to provide any lurkers here with an alternative perspective.”
I thought it was to show the faults in our arguments?
Your ‘alternative perspective’ is rarely more than some conclusory statement without much to back it up, or a general blanket statement concerning an issue, such as ex-Mormon turned evangelical are usually not well educated. Further, you continually fail to see the problems with your own position.
“My arguing that there is not objective evidence to support your broad conclusion does not equal my insisting that there is no correlation or association.”
Are you admitting there is a correlation or association? Why then do you object to Grindael’s comment? If there is a correlation or association, there must be evidence to support it, objective or subjective, and you end up in the same position.
I have been reading all replies, I just have been busy working on a huge project. I will mention more about that later. It will make some smile and others not so much.
Anyway, why is it no LDS are talking about all the changes being made? Why are they being done and no one seems to be bothered?. You cannot simply Change doctrine and act like its nothing.
Now FOF, you are a liar and are being hypocritical, like it or not, that’s the facts.
I have busted you for lying so many times its not funny. And I don’t just say, FOF lies, and leave it at that. I give detailed examples of why and how as evidence.
Also you dodge many questions, questions you don’t like or cannot answer, then to make yourself look good you claim you’re only one person answering many people.
Now that’s a lie, how many times have you just gone missing and not replied to anyone? You could have replied to questions then, or many people will ask the same questions and you could say, five people asked the same question of me, and some have asked more than one. That’s enough to say, it must be important, I will answer it, but nope, not you, you run away and make excuses. Don’t like being called liar? Then stop lying.
My last reply is hard to read, both replies are from my phone and between small keys and auto correct for words it does not like, that’s not helping.
@falcon
I agree that fof is most likely not a bishop or sp. He’s most likely the old high priest speaker in sacrament who everyone ignores and falls asleep to while he blathers on, going 15 minutes over the speaking time.
There’s definitely some type of cognitive dissonance going on with FoF. He claims not to be a racist, while at the same time he says he believes fully in the old racist doctrine of the church regarding blacks and the priesthood. He completely believes 100% that black people were less valiant in the pre-existence or that they have the curse of Cain. When challenged on this he has no response! He just disappears and hides to fight another day. He can’t even acknowledge that his own church has disowned this teaching and declared it racist and NOT FROM GOD.
Yet he still believes it. He can’t abandon it because it was something taught to him his whole life. I believe Fof is a “lying for The Lord, milk before meat” adherent. He thinks “Gentiles” outside the church need to be fed the milk cus they wouldn’t understand this “complicated” doctrine of blacks and the priesthood right off the bat. This is where the arrogance comes into play because HE can claim to understand it and thinks that others who don’t are less spiritual or haven’t studied the issue enough.
It’s ok in his mind if the church abandons it for now because HE knows it’s true. He even said that he believed it and that the doctrine wasn’t incorrect.
I understand how he thinks because I DID THE SAME THING!! I fully embraced things like the doctrine of polygamy and believed that one day it would be restored. But in the meantime I’ll lie to any investigators who ask about it and tell them “no no, we don’t believe in that!”
This is what FoF does in almost every single post. He tried it in the last post with the “ruling over planets” doctrine till I called him out on it and showed he was being dishonest. He knows EXACTLY what the anointing says in the temple but he doesn’t want anyone on here to know that. Cus maybe there’s a lurker out there reading who hasn’t gone through the temple yet and they have no clue that is what happens inside. Mormons get off on the “I have more secret knowledge than you” attitude.
FoF is a Gordon b Hinckley “I don’t know that we teach that” student and acolyte
If you look up FoF’s Internet past, you can tell people on other forums basically get tired of him and ignore him till he realizes no one cares what he is saying and he moves on to another community he can pester.
Unfortunately people on here keep feeding the beast (I understand the reasoning behind it). FoF is no different than any other troll. He’s the same as BCSpace over on Mormon discussions. The only difference is Fof is slightly more educated. Slightly.
Fof F believes that it’s a step down and backwards intellectually , spiritually , and morally to
leave the Mormon church for another christian church ? It’s morally a step down and
backwards ? Ouch . You ex Mormons on here are really morally second rate people I
guess , according to him .
I guess when you’ve amassed a lot of higher learning and earned a Doctorate , coupled with
following religious leaders who teach that you can become an Almighty God one day , that
this can cause a person to look down at others who have’nt amassed as much intellect as
you and don’t belong to your religious organization .
So johnnyboy,
FOF is running from blog to blog trolling?
He definitely comes from the FARMS school of LDS apologists. I’ve always speculated that there is a type of Mormon who no one at the ward pays any attention to but they can go to a blog and do the poser routine.
His mind is so mucked-up with Mormonism that he needs to do a brain cleanse. I’m serious. What in the world kind of belief system could cloud a person’s mind like this.
Forgive me Sharon, you can nuke me on this one, but I had a school counselor tell me one time in regards to a difficult person we were dealing with, “You can’t fix stupid!”
From the very first paragraph of this article is clear that the author doesn’t understand LDS.
“As previously little-known information about Mormon history and doctrine has become available online, many Latter-day Saints are experiencing crises of faith when they learn of major discrepancies between what they have always been taught in the Church and what they have discovered on the internet”.
This is a lie. Plain and simple. Members do leave the church just like any other religion but the church doesn’t lie about the things the article alludes to. I have been in this church for years with no apparent discrepancies. This article seems misled. No wonder people are getting confused!
This thread mentions a Mormon hymn , but I would never personally sing it . I’ve found
through the years talking with Mormons that they truly believe they are members of Jesus’
church —restored , and yet I wonder if they would just take the time to look into the New
Testament and see how it pictures the church organization , not to mention what it teaches
about other important things , and compare those to what Mormon leaders have taught .
Hopefully more and more Mormons will compare what Joseph Smith introduced and
compare that with what Jesus established through His apostles 2000 years ago .
I just hope that everyone reading this article opens their eyes to both sides of this issue. Hopefully more and more people, no matter their religious backgrounds, will compare what Joseph Smith introduced and
compare that with what Jesus actually established through Himself 2000 years ago.
The evolution of the Mormon faith in a mere 180 years is astounding, such that the current crop has no problem throwing pervious generations under the bus. Its not just an evolution, but a rewriting of a very short time period.
FoF mentioned above how it is easy to do this with everything so near historically, and how it is harder to do that with Paul and other early church leaders. What a sad argument to make. Everything is based on some wishful thinking that things just had to have been this way or that. Why? Because it just has to be… Peter had to have practiced temple rituals. Paul must have known we were deity in and of ourselves, able to become gods alike. Matthew had to have known that baptism for the dead was possible and could actually save people after they die.
These things just HAVE to be.
Yet… there is no evidence that any of that is true. Yet… we have a large amount of historical information from that time that would indicate these things, and nothing indicates anything of the sort. Jesus does not withhold secrets and progressively reveal information as we mature in Him. Its all there now, for all to see and know.