A doctrine God revealed to Brigham Young

Charles Harrell is an Associate Professor at Brigham Young University. In his 2011 book, This Is My Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology, he discusses many issues not normally found in a typical LDS-authored book. One such issue is the “Adam-God Doctrine.” Dr. Harrell explains,

“The Adam-God doctrine, which according to available evidence was introduced in Mormonism by President Brigham Young, is the belief that Adam is literally God the Father—the father of our spirits and of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Despite President Young’s affirmation that this was a doctrine ‘which God revealed to me,’ [Brigham Young, “Discourse,” Deseret News, June 18, 1873, 308] it is no longer countenanced by the Church and, in fact, has been labeled by Bruce R. McConkie as a ‘deadly heresy’ inspired of the devil. [“The Seven Deadly Heresies,” 78]” (“This Is My Doctrine”: The Development of Mormon Theology (Part 1) (Kindle Locations 3935-3939)

Brigham YoungIn his book, Dr. Harrell notes that Brigham Young first preached the Adam-God doctrine during a sermon in April of 1852. Found in Journal of Discourses volume 1, Brigham Young was recorded saying:

“Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken–HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later…

“When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession. I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone…

“Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation.” (Journal of Discourses 1:50-51; emphasis in the original)

Dr. Harrell suggests that Brigham Young got the idea for the Adam-God doctrine “from the ever progressive teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith on the Godhead, the plurality of Gods, and origin of Adam and Eve,” but provides evidence that the 1852 sermon was the first public exposure of the teaching. He adds,

“To be sure, many of Young’s associates resisted this doctrine, arguing that it conflicted with earlier revelations. Later LDS commentators would minimize the significance of Brigham Young’s Adam-God teachings, explaining that he was either misunderstood or was merely theorizing. However one chooses to interpret the historical record, President Young discontinued teaching the doctrine publicly after 1861 and, following his death, the doctrine gradually fell into disfavor and is now regarded as heretical.”

Though Dr. Harrell uses the year 1861 as the end of Brigham Young’s public teaching that Adam is God the Father, Deseret News reported on a discourse preached by Brigham Young on June 18th, 1873 in which he said,

Adam-Eve“How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which is revealed to them, and which God revealed to me — namely that Adam is our father and God…Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or ever will come upon the earth…

“[Father Adam] was the first man on the earth, and its framer and maker. He, with the help of his brethren, brought it into existence. Then he said, ‘I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state, I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there will be no end. I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come here and take tabernacles of flesh…” (Deseret News, June 18, 1873, 308 [at link see page 4])

Brigham Young’s Adam-God teaching was not insignificant during his lifetime. Just months before Brigham Young’s death on August 29, 1877, L. John Nuttall summarized part of the endowment ceremony’s lecture at the veil, composed by Brigham Young. As recorded in Nuttall’s journal, the lecture included this:

“Father Adam’s oldest son, Jesus the Savior, who is the heir of the family, is Father Adam’s first begotten in the spirit world and the only begotten according to the flesh (as it is written), Adam in his divinity having gone back into the spirit world and come in the spirit to Mary, and she conceived.” (L. John Nuttall Journal, February 7, 1877)

Nor did Brigham Young’s death put an end to the Saints believing his Adam-God doctrine. A dozen years after Brigham Young was gone, Abraham Cannon (then a President of the Seventy) related a conversation he had with his father, LDS Apostle George Q. Cannon (who was then serving in the First Presidency under Wilford Woodruff). George Cannon convinced his son of several “Gospel principles” and, among other tenets of Mormonism, related this doctrine:

“He [George Q. Cannon] believes that Jesus Christ is Jehovah, and that Adam is His father and our God…” (Journal of Abraham H. Cannon, June 23, 1889)

George Q. Cannon died in 1901, but Brigham Young’s Adam God doctrine lived on. Leaders of the Mormon Church began to make a greater effort to define the LDS doctrine of deity beginning around 1909, yet in 1912 it was reported that “some patriarchs had been teaching the Adam-God doctrine to Church members” (David John Buerger, “The Adam-God Doctrine,” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Spring 1982, 42). And in 1916 Charles Penrose (then the second counselor in the First Presidency) said in General Conference:

“There still remains, I can tell by the letters I have alluded to, an idea among some of the people that Adam was and is the Almighty and Eternal God…..[T]he notion has taken hold of some of our brethren that Adam is the being that we should worship…..I am sorry that has not been rectified long ago, because plain answers have been given to brethren and sisters who write and desire to know about it, and yet it still lingers, and contentions arise in regard to it, and there should be no contentions among Latter-day Saints.” (as quoted in Buerger, 42)

Still, the Adam God doctrine didn’t die within the first two decades of the 20th century. Indeed, Spencer W. Kimball warned against believing the Adam God doctrine and even denounced it during the October 1976 General Conference. LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie continued that warning and in 1980 told students at BYU,

“There are those who believe, or say they believe, that Adam is our Father and our God, that he is the Father of our spirits and our bodies and that he is the one we worship. The devil keeps this heresy alive…anyone who has received the temple endowment and who yet believes the Adam-God theory does not deserve to be saved.” (“Seven Deadly Heresies,” as quoted in Buerger, 45)

Brigham Young believed it; and he made certain it was taught during the temple endowment ceremony.

Red AppleMany early Mormon Church leaders — and members — believed what Brigham Young, the “Lion of the Lord,” declared to his Church as revelation from God. Many people (Mormon Fundamentalists) still believe it.

Jesus said, “Ye shall know them by their fruits” (Matthew 7:16). What does this fruit of Mormonism tell you?

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
This entry was posted in Brigham Young, Early Mormonism, Fundamentalist Mormonism, God the Father, Mormon History, Mormon Leaders and tagged , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

28 Responses to A doctrine God revealed to Brigham Young

  1. MJP says:

    I have a hard time understanding how Mormon’s can brush off Young’s teachings as if they don’t matter.

  2. falcon says:

    Yea, this is a tough deal for Mormons. Here they have their main feature, a prophet who hears from and speaks for the Mormon god, and then they have to deny what the prophet taught and make excuses for him. It just won’t work.
    At least the FLDS don’t run away from the crazy uncle in the attic, Brigham Young. They embrace him and his teaches.
    So that gets us to one of Mormonisms big problems. Who has the “revelation”. That is, what religious sect of Mormonism is the right one? Take your pick and if that doesn’t work, become your own prophet. Why not? Any individual could do as well as these guys claiming to be prophets.

  3. cattyjane says:

    I said I wasnt going to post anymore but this topic was too good to pass off.

    Although many places in scripture speak of various parts of Gods body (the hand of God, Gods wings etc.) or speak of God in anthropomorphic terms, (God walking in the garden) it is also very clear that God does not have a body.

    Scripture only speaks of God in those ways to help people understand the actions of God easier. We are not allowed to speak of God in a physical form. Doing that is an act of idolotry. Just like when the children of Israel made the golden calf. They wanted to worship the God that brought them out of Egypt so they tried to give him a form. The sin was forming the graven image and worshiping it.

    If God had a physical form, that would mean that he exists inside a framework of existance. This would also mean that his existence would depend on the existence of that framework and this is a contradiction since Gods existence is dependent on nothing.

    Pagan gods have attributes similar to the human image. Their gods are born, they die, they have desires, they fight wars and have bodies similar to humans. They are a reflection of the humans who create them.

    The correct interpretation of Gen 1:27 is that we resemble God in that we are not driven by uncontrollable impulses like animals are but instead have the ability to choose right from wrong.

    I read a quote by a famous teacher that I thought went well with this.
    “When the scriprures say we are created in the image of God, it means not in a bodily but in a spiritual likeness. To be like God we must lead lives that are Godlike or Godly. We are like Him when we exercise loving-kindness, justice and righteousness and take delight in these things.”

  4. MJP says:


    Great to hear from you, and I hope you keep posting here. You bring up good questions.

    On this, I agree. God’s human attributes are only thus described to help us understand him, not to describe him as he may be. I also agree that being like him does not mean physically like him, but like him spiritually.

  5. Mike R says:

    This tells me how Jesus sought to warn of men who will come in the latter days claiming to be
    prophets, claiming that they heard from God , to reveal new doctrine —- Brigham Young was
    a latter day prophet he warned us about : Matt 24:11 . Such false prophets fool sincere people
    into supporting them .

    Sadly, the Mormon people have succumbed to what Paul warned about in 2 Tim 4:3,4 .

    Our love for the Mormon people compels us to take time to help steer them to a more reliable source for spiritual truth — the teachings of Jesus’ apostles in the N.T.

  6. falcon says:

    When I first studying Mormonism the thing that struck me was how dishonest the religion was. It was very hard to pin these folks down as they provided a moving target. The Brigham Young, Adam-God doctrine is one of many examples of this dishonesty. The LDS church refuses to own it and yet in BY’s time, it was not just the old man’s opinion. The religion changes often and has a convenient out, continuous revelation. With that as a rationale, anything is possible. And think of it. We have all of these other sects of Mormonism, claiming to have the true revelation, that won’t go near BY with a ten foot pole.
    Think back to the beginning of Mormonism and how Smith would go through these crisis points where he’d lose members. Early on it happened when he dumped his Book of Commandments to the D&C and changed the structure of his one true church. Smith continued to morph his religion going from monotheism to polytheism and incorporating the Free Masonry rituals into his religious ruse. I could go on-and-on but the most frustrating thing is the excuse making, truth shading and down right lying by the Mormon leadership in particular.
    Without the whole sale rationalization, the average Mormon wouldn’t be able to stick it out. It’s just one more thing to put on the shelf until, as many ex-Mormons tell us, the shelf collapses.

  7. grindael says:

    Actually it is erroneous to perpetuate the idea that “many of Young’s associates resisted this doctrine”, (there was only one and that was Orson Pratt), and that Young “discontinued teaching the doctrine publicly after 1861”, which is just a flat out lie. Young GAVE in PUBLIC the most comprehensive sermon on Adam-God of his career in 1873 and HAD IT PUBLISHED in the Deseret News in June of that year. Why this sermon keeps getting ignored by Mormon Apologists is something of a mystery. Matthew Brown did the same thing in 2010. In that sermon, Young said,

    How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me–namely that Adam is our father and God–I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first woman upon the earth. Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth. I have been found fault with by the ministers of religion because I have said that they were ignorant. But I could not find any man on the earth who could tell me this, although it is one of the simplest things in the world, until I met and talked with Joseph Smith.
    Brigham Young, 8 June 1873 SLC Tabernacle DNW 22:308-309

    What Harrell seems to be selling here is simply made up apologia. If the rest of his research is like this, it isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.

  8. grindael says:

    As for many of his associates resisting the doctrine, here is Wilford Woodruff’s complete Journal entry for January 27, 1860. You tell me if any except for Orson Pratt were resisting Young:

    Minutes of a meeting of the Presidency and Twelve, Presidents of Seventies and others assembled in President Young’s Council Room at 6 o’clock. There were present–President Young, President Kimball, (D. H. Wells sick), all of the Twelve except A. Lyman and G. A. Smith, who were sick,the Presidency of the Seventies, Bishop Hunter and many others. A hymn was sung, “O Happy Souls who Pray.” Prayer by O. Hyde.

    [Note: Amasa Lyman was probably already preaching false doctrine at this time, his teaching was that Jesus was “just a good man” and not divine, so he would not have believed Adam-god in any case. He was renounced and excommunicated in 1870. See my article on Lyman here.]

    President Young stated the object of the meeting was to converse upon doctrinal points to see if we see alike and think alike. I pray that we may have the spirit of God to rest upon us that our minds may be upon the subject and that we may speak by the Holy Spirit.

    He then called upon A. Carrington to read a sermon. He read it before the company–a piece prepared for the press written by Orson Pratt upon the Godhead. He claimed that it was the attributes of God that he worshipped and not the person, and that he worshipped those attributes whether he foundthem in God, Jesus Christ, Adam, Moses, the Apostles, Joseph, Brigham, or inanybody else.

    After the document was read, President Young then called upon the Twelve to express their feelings upon the subject.

    He called upon O. Hyde to speak and he called upon J. Taylor to speak.

    He spoke a short time. No one knew at the time (except the President and Carrington) who was the author of the document read.

    Brother Taylor said he did not see it in that light. He worshipped a personage and not the attributes. He thought God was located and could not worship the attributes in anybody.

    President Young then called a vote of the assembly and said if you understand this to be a correct doctrine as here written, I wish you to manifest it by saying yes. No one spoke.

    President Young then said, do I worship attributes or the dispenser of these attributes? This is O. Pratt’s sermon prepared for the press. I do not want to have it published if it is not right. Brother Orson worships the attributes of God, but not God. I worship not the attributes, but that God who holds and dispenses. If eternity was full of attributes and no one to dispense them, they would not be worth a feather. Suppose an angel comes to us tonight with a message from God and he tells the angel not to make himself known. He comes to us with a message and gives a New Law and a penalty for not obeying. You may ask who are you? He may not tell you who he is or he may say God sent me. You may say, where is that God who sent you? I don’t know or care anything about you or what you say. He might say to you, I am a god to you. Moses said to Israel, I am a god to you.

    Joseph said to us, I am a god to you. This was true and upon the same principles, I am a god to this people and so is any man who is appointed to lead Israel or the Kingdom of God. If the people reject him, they reject the one who sent him; but we will let that drop and turn to the other subject now. Suppose we were all to receive a fulness of the attributes of God and according to Orson Pratt’s theory, the Lord had a fulness and He could not advance, but we could advance till we were equal to Him. Then if we worshipped the attributes instead of God, we would soon worship ourselves as soon as we had a fulness of these attributes. Then you cannot worship anything beyond, yourself. You would then worship the attributes and not the dispenser of those attributes. “This is false doctrine.” God did not say worship Moses because he was a god to the people. You may say to your wife or son, do so and so. They will say I will not, but I will go to a greater man. I will go to Brigham Young. You might say I am your counselor, dictator or your God. Either would be correct and they should obey your just and righteous command, yet they should not worship you, for this would be sin. Orson Pratt has differed from me in many things. But this is a great principle and I do not wish to say you shall do so and so. I do not know of a man who has a mathematical turn of mind, but what goes too far.

    The trouble between Orson Pratt and me is I do not know enough and he knows too much. I do not know everything. There is a mystery concerning the God I worship which mystery will be removed when I come to a full knowledge of God. One of the greatest things Joseph Smith ever did was to familiarize heaven and earth and cause them to shake hands together and become familiar together. This was a great principle. It is simple yet true. When I meet the God I worship, I expect to [meet a] personage with whom I have been acquainted upon the same principle that I would to meet with my earthly father after going upon a journey and returning home.

    W. Woodruff spoke and said that it is our privilege so to live as to have the spirit of God to bear record of the truth of any revelation that comes from God through the mouth of his prophet who leads his people and it has ever been a key with me that when the Prophet who leads presents a doctrine or principle or says thus saith the Lord, I make it a policy to receive it even if it comes in contact with my tradition or views, being well satisfied that the Lord would reveal the truth unto His prophet whom He has called to lead His church before He would unto me, and the word of the Lord through the prophet is the end of the Law unto me.

    O. Hyde and Joseph Young both backed me up.

    Joseph Young said, “I do not believe in the doctrine of worshipping the attributes and not the author. I once loved a woman. She says to me you shall have my respect and kind regard, and she told me to go in peace. I told her it was not her good will that I wanted alone; I wanted her. So with my God. If He was to say to me, Joseph, here take my attributes and go, I would say, No, Father, it is not your attributes alone that I want, but I want you. When I read O. Pratt’s views in The Seer, I could not swallow it. Joseph the Prophet said when you see your Father, you will see him just as He was in this life, only He will be full of strength, glory, immortality and eternal life.”

    President Brigham Young said now here is the Twelve. I wish to extend their influence as far as I can but I cannot do it while they teach false doctrine. One of the causes of the decline in England (as I understand the people are clear down), is what Orson Pratt preached in The Seer. There is not a man in the Church that can preach better than Orson Pratt upon any subject which he understands. It is music to hear him, but the trouble is he will preach upon things he does not know a thing about, and then he will preach false doctrine and so will Elder Hyde. He preaches upon the resurrection and teaches things which are not true. I will tell you the God which you and I worship is a Being that was on an earth like this. He has been clothed in mortality the same as we have been and he has had devils to fight the same as we have had, but I do not expect they were the same devils that we have. That God says I am your God and there is none else. Let us worship Him and none else. He is the God that we have. No matter what Gods Enoch saw when the heavens were opened unto him, if the God he saw had been exalted millions of years before our God was, he also had to occupy an earth like ourselves and we shall find it out at some period and this is all the mystery there is about it. If we are faithful, we in our turn shall be exalted and become Gods and there will be no mystery about it when we understand it.

    [Note: Orson Pratt’s views on the Godhead and Adam & the resurrection are what is taught by the Church today, while what Brigham Young taught is declared false doctrine. Young here, mischaracterizes Pratt’s views, which Pratt explains below]

    Orson Hyde said I am satisfied that I have used a good deal of philosophy which is not true, but that is all done away with, and I did not think I should meet with the prejudices of Potawatamia here tonight.

    President Young said if you bring Potawatamia with you, do not expect to meet it.

    O. Hyde said that he did not preach in Grantsville as Brother Joseph Young reported he did.Brother Joseph was not present and he has been misinformed concerning it.

    E. T. Benson explained the way O. Hyde did preach. He compared the resurrection to taking a journey around the world. We travel all day, stop at a station atnight, lie down and sleep at night, arise in the morning and continue our journey through another day and so on. So at the end of this life we sleep in the grave till the morning of the resurrection; we then arise and continue our journey. Brother Benson also said I do not preach things which I do not know. I keep in shallow water. I wish to teach the people those] things which they can understand and those things we cannot understand, I do not troublemyself about. I know it is my duty to sustain the president of this Church. If I do not respect the President of this Church and believe his word and I set myself up against him, I am under condemnation. I would as leave cut off my right hand. If he speaks to us, we must believe him and obey him. I mean to do it.

    Erastus Snow said President Young has put words in my mouth so that I can convey what I want. We are apt to say many things which we do not mean and we injure ourselves. I cannot see things in the same light that Orson Pratt does, but when President Young has taught doctrine, it has always tasted good to me. I do not wish to know any more than God wishes me to.

    Orson Pratt said I will speak upon this subject. I have not spoken but once in the Tabernacle since conference. I then spoke upon the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants concerning the Father and Son and their attributes.

    I spoke upon those attributes of the Father and Son. I spoke of the attributes of the Saints. I gave my views upon the attributes of God. I sincerely believed what I preached. How long I have believed this doctrine, I do not know, but it has been for years. I have published it in The Seer. I spoke of a plurality of gods. In order to worship this God I said that I adored the attributes wherever I found them. I was honest in this matter. I would not worship a god or tabernacle that did not possess attributes. If I did, I should worship idols. I have taught this doctrine. Now the reason I worship the Father is because in Him is combined the attributes. If He had not those attributes, I would not worship Him any more than I would this chair. I cannot see any difference between myself and President Young. If you had told me what you worshipped him for, you would have told me something, but now I can see no difference between us. I wish to explain. Now Jesus said, I am in the Father and the Father in me. Now I do not suppose that the Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father in the tabernacle, but in the spirit and attributes, truth, light, power, etc. We are told that the son represents the Father in attributes, etc. I called upon the brethren to come to this meeting to settle this.

    But I must have something more than a declaration of President Young to convince me. I must have evidence. I am willing to take President Young as a guide in most things but not in ALL.

    President Young does not propose to have revelations in all things. I am not to loose in my agency. I have said many things which President Young says are false. I do not know how it is. I count President Young equal to Joseph and Joseph equal to President Young. I find things in Joseph’s revelations that govern me. I would as leave believe Joseph as Brigham. When Joseph teaches anything and Brigham seems to teach another contrary to Joseph (I say seems to), I believe them as Joseph has spoken them and as the Apostle speaks of them. I do not know God only by His attributes, and that God who has the most attributes I worship. I worship but one God, and God does not dwell in me, only His attributes. I have spoken plainly. I would rather not have spoken so plainly, but I have no excuses to make.

    President Young said I ought to make a confession. But Orson Pratt is not a man to make a confession of what I do not believe. I am not going to crawl to Brigham Young and act the hypocrite and confess what I do not believe. I will be a free man. President Young condemns my doctrines to be false. I do not believe them to be false which I published in The Seer in England. It has been said we should let these things sleep. But you do not let them sleep. If I had thought while in England that President Young worshipped a God without attributes, I would not have written what I did.

    [Woodruff note:] (The above remark was an unkind cut by Orson Pratt; he should not have said it.)

    But I do not believe it, yet I will not act the hypocrite. It may cost me my fellowship, but I will stick to it. If I die tonight, I would say, O Lord God Almighty, I believe what I say. [end of Pratt remarks]

    Elder John Taylor spoke at some length and tried to convince Orson Pratt of his error.

    President Young said Orson Pratt has started out upon false premises to argue upon. His foundation has been a false one all the time and Iwill prove it false. You have been like a mad stubborn mule and have taken a false position in order to accuse me. You have accused me of worshipping a stalk or stone or a dead body without life or attributes. You never heard such a doctrine taught by me or any leader of the Church. It is as false as Helland you will not hear the last of it soon. You know it is false. Do we worship those attributes? No, we worship God because he has all those attributes and is the dispenser of them and because he is our Father and our God. Orson Pratt puts down a lie to argue upon. He has had false ground all the time tonight.There never was a time or eternity but what a God did exist and a God that had children upon the same principle that children are now begotten, and I was begotten by the God I worship who reigns in the heavens, and I shall also in my turn, reign as a God and so will you.

    O. Hyde said to O. Pratt, my opinion is not worth as much to me as my fellowship in this Church.

    President Young said Michael was a resurrected being and he left Eloheim and came to this earth and with an immortal body, continued so till he partook of earthly food and begot children who were mortal (keep this to yourselves); then they died. [This is Young’s Adam-god Doctrine]

    A. Carrington spoke upon the subject a short time and made some useful remarks.

    President Young spoke upon the subject of O. Pratt laying down false principles to work upon. That principle if carried out would place us in a position that when a man gets a fulness of the attributes of God, they would have to worship themselves. But if we worship God, we worship him because he possesses all the attributes and dispenses them to the children of men. All these attributes are the servants of God. They serve his purposes and are at his command.

    [This was not Pratt’s contention, only that the attributes of God are what make God who He is, and they are worthy of adoration because if God did not have them, he would be an idol]

    President H.C. Kimball followed President Young and said Brother Orson Pratt has withstood Joseph and he has withstood Brother Brigham many times, and he has done it tonight and it made my blood chill. It is not for you to lead, but to be led by him. You have not the power to dictate but to be dictated to.

    W. Woodruff arose and said Brother Orson Pratt, I wish to ask you one or two questions. You see that the spirit and doctrine which you possess is entirely in opposition to the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve,and all who are present this evening, and it chills the blood in our veins to hear your words and feel your spirit. Should not this be a guidance to you that you are wrong? What would become of the Quorum of the Twelve if we allfelt as you do? We should all go to hell in a pile together. You say you are honest in the course you are pursuing. I wish to ask you if you were honest when you said that if you had known that President Young worshipped a God without life or attributes, that you would not have written what you did.

    (O. Pratt said, I will recall that.)

    It was an insult to President Young and the Holy Priesthood which he holds. Every man in this room who has a particle of the spirit of God, knows that President Young is a Prophet of God and that God sustains him and he has the Holy Spirit and his doctrines are true, and that he is qualified to lead the people, and he has explained everything so plainly this evening that a child can understand it, and yet it is no evidence to you. Nothing can make an impression upon you; no argument can reach your understanding.

    But Brother Orson, I have seen the day when you were in sorrow. It was when you were cast out of your Quorum and out of the Church and that, too, in consequence of pursuing the same course you are this evening; then you could both see, feel and understand. Then argument could reach you when you saw your glory and crown departing from you. I beg of you to reflect and not let your will carry you too far in those things. It would be better for us not to be able to cast up a simple sum in addition and be humble before the Lord than to have ever so much knowledge and permit that knowledge to lead us to destruction.

    [But Joseph Smith said it was knowledge that saves a man, not “being humble”]

    There are but few men upon earth upon whom God has bestowed such gifts, qualifications and reasoning powers as he has upon you, and He willhold you responsible for the use you make of them, and you should not make a wreck of your salvation for contending for things which you do not understand and I do feel at this advanced state of the Church and the late day and wishthe information which you possess that neither you nor your brethren ought tobe troubled with false doctrine. Neither should you cause your brethren to listen to such a scene of things as we have heard tonight or to insult thepresident of this Church as you have done. Although you are unbending in your will tonight, the day is not far distant when you will be glad to bend to the president of this Church and make reconciliation.

    Erastus Snow followed and backed up the testimony of those who had spoken.

    Orson Hyde spoke upon the subject and said Brother Pratt had not got the spirit of God.

    He was followed by C. C. Rich who backed up the testimony of the Twelve in saying that Orson Pratt was wrong.

    E. T. Benson spoke upon the same subject and said if Brother Pratt had the confidence in President Young which he ought to have, he would feel different. If he had the confidence in his brethren which he should have, I know he would feel different.

    President Young said I will tell you how I got along with Joseph. I found out that God called Joseph to be a Prophet. I did not do it. I then said I will leave the Prophet in the hands of that God who called and ordained him to be a Prophet. He is not responsible to me and it is none of my business what he does. It is for me to follow and obey him. I once was ashamed of one thing which I did while in Missouri in Zions Camp. I got a revelation that God accepted our offering. I had the same thing revealed to me twice and that we should not go into Jackson County. I named this to some of the brethren a day or two before Joseph got a revelation upon the same subject. I felt ashamed that I named it first. I knew where we were going and I now know that when we go to Jackson County, we shall go from the West, and I will now tell you all and you may write it down that all my preaching by the Holy Ghost is revelation. I told Brother Joseph that he had given us revelation enough to last us 20 years. When that time is out, I can give as good revelation as there is in the Doctrine and Covenants.

    Elder Taylor said in one of his sermons that, “If we walk in the light of the Lord, we should have revelations all the time.” It is the light that is within you. No man can live his religion without living in revelation, but I would never tell a revelation to the Church unless Joseph told it first. Joseph once told me to go to his own house to attend a meeting with him. He said that he would not go without me. I went and Hyrum preached upon the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants, and said we must take them as our guide alone. He preached very lengthy until he nearly wearied the people out. When he closed, Joseph told me to get up. I did so. I took the books and piled them all up on top of each other. I then said that I would not give the ashes of a rye straw for all those books for my salvation without the living oracles. I should follow and obey the living oracles for my salvation instead of anything else. When I got through, Hyrum got up and made a confession for not including the living oracles.

    It may be thought strange by the brethren that I will still fellowship Elder O. Pratt after what he has said, but I shall do it. I am determined to whip Brother Pratt into it and make him work in the harness.

    Orson Pratt said if I gratified my feelings, I had rather go into the canyon than to preach. I have got to go to Tooele to get wood for my family.

    President Young said I will give you a mission in Tooele to preach and send word to the Bishop to get some man and draw up his wood. Brother Pratt has no business in the canyon. The Lord does not want him there. F. D. Richards dismissed the meeting. (Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, Vol. 5, pp. 420-430, emphasis and bracketed comments mine)

  9. grindael says:

    Instructions to the Saints January 29 1860 (Rebuke of Orson Pratt)

    On the 26th of January, in the Tabernacle, Elder Orson Pratt, Sen., addressed the Saints; and, through an oversight, a portion of his remarks was printed in Vol. IX. No. 51. of The Deseret News, previous to being carefully revised. Since then those remarks have been examined by br. Pratt and the Council, and are now printed as agreed upon by them, as follows:

    Elder Pratt sustains an unimpeachable character, so far as strict morality, tried integrity, industry, energy, zeal, faithfulness to his religion, and honesty in all business transactions are concerned; but it will be readily perceived, from his “Remarks,” that he does not claim exemption from liability to err in judgment in relation to “some points of doctrine.” Br. Pratt’s preachings and teaching upon the first principles of the Gospel are excellent.

    With regard to the quotations and comments in The Seer as to Adam’s having been formed “out of the ground,” and “from the dust of the ground,” &c., it is deemed wisest to let that subject remain without further explanation at present, for it is written that we are to receive “line upon line,” according to our faith and capacities, and the circumstances attending our progress.

    In the Seer, pages 24 and 25, par. 22, br Pratt states:- “All these Gods are equal in power, in glory, in dominion, and in the possession of all things; each possesses a fulness of truth, of knowledge, of wisdom, of light, of intelligence; each governs himself in all things by his own attributes, and is filled with love, goodness, mercy, and justice towards all. The fullness of all these attributes is what constitutes God.” “It is truth, light, and love, that we worship and adore; these are the same in all worlds; and as these constitute God, He is the same in all worlds;” “Wherever you find a fulness of wisdom, knowledge, truth, goodness, love, and such like qualities, there you find God in all his glory, power, and majesty – therefore, if you worship theses adorable perfections, you worship God.”

    Seer, page 117, par. 95.- “then there will be no Being or Beings in existence that will know one particle more than what we know; then our knowledge, and wisdom, and power will be infinite; and cannot, from thenceforth, be increased or expanded in the least degree;” Same page, par. 96:- “but when they” (the Saints) “become one with the Father and Son and receive a fullness of their glory, that will be the end of all progression in Knowledge, because there will be nothing more to be learned. The Father and the Son do not progress in knowledge and wisdom, because they already know all things past, present, and to come.” Par. 97:- “there are none among them (the Gods) that are in advance of the others in knowledge; though some may have been Gods as many millions of years as there are particles of dust in all the universe, yet there is not one truth that such are in possession of but what every other God knows.” “None of these Gods are progressing in knowledge: neither can they progress in the acquirement of any truth.”

    In this treatise entitled “Great First Cause,” page 16, par. 17, br Pratt states:- “All the organizations of worlds, of minerals, of vegetables, of animals, of men, of angels, of spirits, and of the spiritual personages of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, must, if organized at all, have been the result of the self combinations and unions of the pre-existent, intelligent, powerful, and eternal particles of substance. These eternal Forces and Powers are the Great Causes of all things and events that have had a beginning.”

    The foregoing quoted ideas, and all similar ones omitted to be quoted, with the comments thereon, as advanced by br. Pratt in an article, in the Seer, entitled “Pre-Existence of man,” and in his treatises entitled absurdities of immaterialism and “Great First Cause,” are plausibly presented. But to the whole subject we will answer in the words of the Apostle Joseph Smith, on a similar occasion. One of the Elders of Israel had written a long revelation which he deemed to be very important, and requested br. Joseph to hear him read it. The Prophet commended its style in glowing terms, remarked that the ideas were ingeniously advanced, &c., &c., and that he had but one objection to it. “What is that”? inquired the writer, greatly elated that his production was considered so near perfect. The Prophet Joseph replied, “It is not true.”

    This should be a lasting lesson to the Elders of Israel not to undertake to teach doctrine they do not understand. If the Saints can preserve themselves in a present salvation day by day which is easy to be taught and comprehended, it will be well with them hereafter. (More on The Seer here.)

  10. falcon says:

    Well grindael………………

    What all this tells me is that there was a great falling away and an apostasy in the Mormon religion upon the death of the venerable prophet Brigham Young.
    But wait a minute. Haven’t there been all sorts of falling away(s) and apostasies in Mormonism? I don’t know if you could take the time to do this or if you have the resources but wouldn’t it be interesting to see a timeline from the (time) that Smith founded Mormonism with all of the break away groups? It’s even said that Smith went into apostasy with his move to multiple gods and the tie-in with polygamy. There was also apostasy when Smith restructured the leadership scheme of his religion.
    We know at the very time that Young was revealing the Adam-God doctrine, there was a group of those Mormons back in Illinois that stuck with the original Mormonism. I think there was at least one earlier group who broke away from Smith when he began to deviate from the original revelation.
    Mormonism is continually going into apostasy.
    I think any Mormon coming to a knowledge of what is being discussed here needs to conclude that Mormonism is a mess and they need to seek God and His plan of salvation as revealed in His Holy Word, the Bible.

  11. falcon says:

    So my hobby horse is the premise upon which Mormonism was founded. That is, after the death of the apostles there was a great falling away as the Church went into apostasy. It was necessary, therefore, for God to restore His Church and He did so through the prophet Joseph Smith.
    The problem for Mormons, if they’d ever stop to think about it, is that there is no historical basis for Smith’s claim of the great apostasy. My question to Mormons would be, “So what your brand of Mormonism believes, teaches and practices is exactly what the first century Church believed, taught and practiced?”
    That would mean, with some of these groups, that the first century Church believed and taught the Adam-God doctrine? Take it back a little further. Is this what the Jews believed and taught?
    It doesn’t take much examination to determine that the foundation upon which Mormonism is built, is a total sham. Historically, it’s a provable sham.
    Without a great apostasy there is no need for a restoration. But what such errors in thinking produce are religious amateurs like Smith, Young et.al who prided themselves on their endless speculation and penchant for coming up with all sort of strange and weird doctrine like Adam-God.

    Is it any wonder that guys like Bruce McConkie would go postal over Smith’s Adam-God doctrine. And guess what? Today McConkie is viewed as a sort of crackpot by the Mormon establishment while his tome “Mormon Doctrine” was a guide to at least a couple of generations of Mormons. McConkie of course was the Mormon leader who warned against Mormons attempting to have a personal relationship with Jesus. That, in his view, was a major no no.

    What Mormons need is the truth and they certainly aren’t going to get it following a bunch of self-appointed and self-anointed prophets.

  12. cattyjane says:

    I think if I would have heard about this before I joined I would never have joined the church. This is outright pagan idolotry. People who know that the church associates itself with these teachings and they do not turn away from the church will be held accountable before God. This is such a dangerous teaching I dont know how to even express how terrified these people should be to stand before God and they give an account for this.
    God is ONE, Echad. There is none before and non after.
    Deut 4, 6, Isaiah 43:10, 45, Exodus 20, Deut 4:35~39, Deut 32:39, 1 Samuel 2:1~2, 2 Samuel 7:22, Isaiah 44:6~8, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 46:9, Hosea 13:4, Malachi 2:10

    We will never know everything that God knows. Not even in the world to come. The angels dont know everything. Scripture says our ways are not his ways and our thoughts are not his thoughts. It says there is none like him and there never will be. Satan wanted to be like God and we see where that got him. God will always be above us and beyond our understanding. He is our reedeemer and our salvation, the almighty and only creator of heaven and earth and I am not even worthy to speak his name. Blessed be the name of the ONE and only God who is NOT a created being like me but an eternal, powerful, everlasting God whose existance and authority is dependent on NOONE!

  13. cattyjane says:

    I think if I would have heard about this before I joined I would never have joined the church. This is outright pagan idolotry. People who know that the church associates itself with these teachings and they do not turn away from the church will be held accountable before God. This is such a dangerous teaching I dont know how to even express how terrified these people should be to stand before God and they give an account for this.
    God is ONE, Echad. There is none before and non after.
    Deut 4, 6, Isaiah 43:10, 45, Exodus 20, Deut 4:35~39, Deut 32:39, 1 Samuel 2:1~2, 2 Samuel 7:22, Isaiah 44:6~8, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 46:9, Hosea 13:4, Malachi 2:10

    We will never know everything that God knows. Not even in the world to come. The angels dont know everything. Scripture says our ways are not his ways and our thoughts are not his thoughts. It says there is none like him and there never will be. Satan wanted to be like God and we see where that got him. God will always be above us and beyond our understanding. He is our reedeemer and our salvation, the almighty and only creator of heaven and earth and I am not even worthy to speak his name. Blessed be the name of the ONE and only God who is NOT a created being like me but an eternal, powerful, everlasting God whose existance and authority is dependent on NOONE!

  14. falcon says:

    The question that should be asked of every Mormon is simply, “What is Mormonism?”
    I’m sure they’d give the lost gospel razzamatazz but if follow-up questions were asked regarding the morphing of the “restored gospel” they’d be stumped.
    Take the LDS sect for example. Is what they believe about the nature of God consistent with the doctrine at the time the Mormon church was founded? Is the LDS church following Brigham Young and his defined doctrine of the nature of God?
    There were a bunch of Mormons who didn’t follow Brigham Young out to Utah and they became known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Today they go by the name of Community of Christ. This is who they say God is:
    “We believe in one living God who meets us in the testimony of Israel, is revealed in Jesus Christ, and moves through all creation as the Holy Spirit. We affirm the Trinity—God who is a community of three persons. All things that exist owe their being to God: mystery beyond understanding and love beyond imagination. This God alone is worthy of our worship.”

    I offer this as an example of the confusion that exists within the restored gospel. I visited the historical site in Council Bluffs, Iowa where the leadership of the LDS church was “sustained” after the Mormons had left Nauvoo. The tour guide made a big deal out of this. Wouldn’t a questioning Mormon have to ask the very important question as to the ascendancy of Brigham Young to the office of prophet? Given the wacko doctrines this guy promoted like Adam-God it would seem that he wasn’t a very good choice. The CoC on the other hand, have a doctrine that more closely resembles the founding of the Mormon church. The FLDS have a doctrine that’s pure Brigham Young. The LDS seem to float but they definitely don’t have a prophet that addresses any of these pertinent issues. Mormonism is a mess!

    Here’s a short article on Brigham Young’s ascendency to power.

  15. Mike R says:

    grindael , thanks for the info . It sheds more light on this doctrine Brigham Young introduced
    to his flock .

    Dr Harrell acknowledges that Brigham Young did in fact introduce this doctrine and proceeded
    to teach it as doctrine to the Mormon people . That admission is refreshing . There have many
    Mormons resort to clever excuses to rescue Young from being a religious leaders who taught
    false doctrine to his followers . He did introduce it as doctrine and proceeded for over 20 years
    to convince his flock that it was line up upon line — new light on of what he had learned about
    Adam from his mentor Joseph Smith .

    Unfortunately for the Mormon people their prophet had refused correction concerning his
    believing and teaching this doctrine to them , thus succumbing to rightly being viewed as a
    false prophet . This malady is not new , in Paul’s day their were men claiming to be prophets
    who attempted to introduce egregious doctrines into the church body — 2Pt 2:1 . Mormon
    prophet Brigham Young is a modern day counterpart to these types of prophets .

    Yet today Mormons authorities make the claim that their prophet will NEVER teach / condone
    false doctrine to them . This amazing statement comes near the same time that Mormon
    apostle Bruce McConkie admits privately to a BYU prof that Young did teach false doctrine
    to his flock !

    When the Mormon people can admit that Brigham Young did in fact convince many LDS to
    believe in this terrible doctrine then they will have done what is right . Failure to give
    testimony to this fact signals something is amiss in their respect for God because God
    does not look favorably on those who harbor false prophets — prophets who teach people
    false doctrine IN HIS NAME .Isa 9:16

    The Mormon people deserve to be free from supporting / following latter days false prophets .
    Jesus warned the Mormon people that these prophets would come — Matt 24:11

  16. falcon says:

    It just doesn’t fit. A religion that claims its prophet hears directly from God and then denies a very fundamental doctrine taught by one of these prophets. The fact that Mormons deny the authenticity of Brigham Young’s Adam-God doctrine and want to still hold on to the infallibility of their prophet is proof of the cognitive dissonance of this religion.
    So if Young is wrong on Adam-God and if polygamy was outlawed as a practice as introduced by the founding prophet Joseph Smith, what’s wrong with this picture? Very clearly the claim of having a prophet isn’t all that special.

  17. cattyjane says:

    Do these people even read scripture? Just reading Genesis alone tells you Youngs teachings contradict. Young says Adam came into the garden with Eve. Genesis says God placed Adam in the garden by himself at first. Later God made Adam fall asleep and created Eve from one of his ribs. So where do they get this teaching?

  18. falcon says:


    We have the Garden of Eden as presented in the Bible then we have the Mormon Garden of Eden which was located right here in America.

    “In the beginning, after the earth was prepared for man, the Lord commenced his work upon what is now called this American continent, where the Garden of Eden was made. In the days of Noah, in the days of the floating of the ark, he took the people to another part of the earth: the earth was divided, and there he set up his kingdom.”

    – Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 195, October 7, 1860

    “You have been both to Jerusalem and Zion, and seen both. I have not seen either, for I have never been in Jackson County. Now it is a pleasant thing to think of and to know where the Garden of Eden was. Did you ever think of it? I do not think many do, for in Jackson County was the Garden of Eden. Joseph has declared this, and I am as much bound to believe that as to believe that Joseph was a prophet of God.”

    – Prophet Brigham Young, Journal History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, March 15, 1857

    Read more here:


  19. falcon says:

    I think a common lament by we apologetic type Christians in regards to Mormons is, “How can they believe this stuff?”
    But then we listen to and read the testimonies of those who have come out of Mormonism and we do gain some clarity. For some, it’s all they’ve ever known. And for most of these folks, they didn’t know any of the information that eventually led them out of the LDS church.
    The ones that sort of blow-me-away are those who visit us here at MC, have the information, and still cling to their testimony as if it were a life jacket of sorts. A few things are very clear. The gospel, as presented in the NT, bears no resemblance to what the LDS church teaches, believes and practices. The “restored” gospel is a mish mash of bizarre notions that has no connection to what the Witnesses to Jesus Christ taught. In fact, what the LDS church teaches can’t be found any where in the history of the Christian church.
    I guess the only explanation as to why some cling to the LDS religion even in light of the fact that their past prophets are pretty much ignored (i.e. Brigham Young with Adam-God, Blood Atonement etc.) is that we are engaged in a spiritual war as described by the Apostle Paul in his letter to the Ephesians. He writes that we don’t war against flesh and blood but the spiritual powers in the heavenlies. As to this war, we put on the full armor of God, as Paul explains, and depend solely on the Holy Spirit to bring these confused Mormons to Christ.

  20. Mike R says:

    Falcon, it’s sad how the Mormon people have been fooled into following the latter days prophets
    of Mormonism . We see why Jesus took the time to warn everyone living in the latter days to
    watch out for such men ( Mk 13:22-23 ) . This issue with Mormon prophet Brigham Young is
    a textbook example of the necessity for heeding Jesus’ warning .

    It is quite enlightening to observe the excuses some Mormons use in trying to rescue Young
    from being seen as a latter days false prophet . A couple of years ago I experienced this
    behavior by a Mormon apologist here on this blog ( see the thread ” Gift of Love ” 10-8-2012
    start at 10-19 . Also the thread ” Unwise Choices lead Mormons to Disillusionment ” 10-11- 2012
    start at 10-30 ) .

    The Mormon people who are concerned about doing the right thing will dismiss their prophets ,
    salvation is available without them as authorities in their lives .
    There is a more reliable source to learn important spiritual truths — the preaching of Jesus’
    apostles in the New Testament .

  21. Brian says:

    Thanks for this interesting topic, Sharon. In my experience, when an LDS person is exposed to this and other teachings of Brigham Young, the reaction is generally one or more of the following:

    1. Surprise
    2. Disbelief (questioning authenticity, context, or circumstances)
    3. Anger (at the messenger)

    Reactions may vary, but I think the meaning is the same: “I did not know. I do not believe it.” The LDS people do not believe Brigham Young. Most just don’t realize it. The LDS people are kind and well respected. On the surface, they appear to be so together. They do not look like victims. And yet they are. Most just don’t realize it.

    On the first Sunday each month, testimonies may be heard in LDS services across the country. Often they focus on an institution and its leaders. The leaders are prophets and the institution itself is true. This means it may be believed when it speaks on the most important of subjects. Such as how one may be forgiven. How eternal life is to be acquired. How one may be in right relationship with God. And yet, have you ever wondered what God’s testimony is? Have you heard his testimony? It is found in a passage from the book I am currently studying. It is not a testimony about an institution. Or prophets. Or a code of laws. It is a testimony about his Son:

    “We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life” (1 John 5:9-12).

    Jesus Christ is eternal life. When one receives Jesus, one receives eternal life (John 5:24). Do you have eternal life? If not, then you do not have Jesus Christ.


  22. falcon says:

    Brian and Mike,
    I’ve been watching the “ex-files” with Earl Erskine a former Mormon bishop. Earl interviews former Mormons and it is quite enlightening to me. It’s a wide-swath of personalities and interesting journey out stories. They last about 27 minutes each and I find time flying by when I watch them. Some of the folks most of us will know while others are basically rank and file types who tell compelling accounts of moving away from the religion of Joseph Smith’s creation and into a loving relationship with Jesus Christ. I’ll link to the one I’m currently watching. I think it has some applicability to our current conversation.


  23. falcon says:

    In the interview that I link to above, Earl says, “It’s funny. I know more about Mormonism as a former Mormon than I knew when I was (a Mormon).”
    That helps explain a lot. Rick and I in particular, have in the past been accused by Mormon posters of not knowing anything about Mormonism. I’ve had to tell them, “No, we know a lot about Mormonism. The problem you face is that we don’t believe Mormonism.” These Mormons confuse knowing and believing. It’s not that difficult to become an expert in Mormonism. It is, after all, just information. It’s not brain surgery!
    With Mormonism it’s not even about taking things out of context, or misquoting or mis-representing. Take our current topic, Brigham Young’s Adam-God doctrine. All someone has to do is access the information and there’s plenty of it out there on Brigham Young. The typical Mormon doesn’t have much of a desire to look into these things because they have a bad case of the “I knows”.

  24. cattyjane says:

    Yep that is true. When I first came to this site I would laugh at you guys and say where do they come up with this stuff, there is no way this is true! And then I found out that it was and became very angry at the whole situation. I kmow more now about LDS than I ever did before. I dont even tell people I meet that im a member of the church. Its a total embarressment.

  25. falcon says:

    Thanks for the post because it reinforces what many of us have been aware of, that is that Mormons are in darkness and in much need of the light of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
    Look at how your mind has been cleansed by the pure water of the Word of God. In the interview that I linked to above, the former Mormon said that what flipped him initially wasn’t learning more about Mormonism but learning about the gospel as it is revealed in God’s Word. He pursued God because he became obcessed with the idea of being born again. Learning what this is and who God is, led him out of Mormonism. He saw the stark contrast between what Mormonism teaches and what God has revealed in His Word.

    I find it interesting that when you first came here you had no idea where we came up with what we present regarding Mormonism. Thankfully, through the Spirit of God, you were led to the truth and have made your committeemen to the Lord Jesus Christ.

  26. falcon says:

    Slow on the spell check trigger tonight. Obcessed (?) I think I meant obsessed.

  27. Brian says:

    Falcon, thanks for the series of interesting stories you made us aware of. I love reading (and sometimes viewing) stories of people’s spiritual journeys.

    Cattyjane, thanks for being a part of this forum. It sounds like a painful time you have been through. Perhaps many LDS people are presently going through what you did. I don’t know if there are a lot of LDS people that write in this forum. I wish there were more. Yet maybe we have many who read the forums. And that is great. I hope they find encouragement here, as God’s word is shared. His promises. And the comfort it is to be pardoned and accepted by God. Thank you for sharing your experience here, Cattyjane.

    Hearing of others’ stories reminds me of a dear friend, and his experience in the LDS religion. He did not know the Bible very well at the time. But he did know about the Great Commission and “all nations.” This puzzled him, as at the time some nations were off limits to the LDS church. As a schoolteacher, he had some black students in his classroom. Seeing some of them in broken homes and not receiving the support they needed, he thought if anyone needed the morality and structure offered in the LDS religion, it was his black students. They greatly bothered him. He wrote letters to LDS leaders, hoping for answers. And he began a yearlong period of intense Bible study. Eventually, he informed the LDS leaders that he was leaving. He was excommunicated, losing his family and most of his friends. Tom is possibly the most vibrant Christian I’ve met in my life. I am grateful to be friends with him.

  28. Pingback: Who is the God of Mormonism ?:One Hint,He is Not the God of the Bible | Beyond Opinion

Leave a Reply