There is a difference between seeking justification* before God by faith or by the law. Some think we must combine the two, relying both on faith and individual works of obedience. Is this what God requires? Galatians 3 has the answer.
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. (Galatians 3:10-14)
Believing Versus Doing
From Tabletalk, June 2013
Faith that invests itself wholly and completely in God and His promises alone is the only faith that pleases the Lord. When, in the seventh century BC, Habakkuk could not understand how God could use the evil Babylonians to chastise His people, when it seemed from a human perspective that the Lord’s purposes for Israel had failed and that His faithful servants would not be vindicated, God responded that those He regards as righteous live by faith (Hab. 2:4). That is, those who are righteous in His sight continue trusting Him and do not rely on what they can see from a human perspective or what they can do to vindicate their own righteousness. Dr. R.C. Sproul explains: “Anybody can believe in God. What it means to be a Christian is to trust him when he speaks, which does not require a leap of faith or a crucifixion of the intellect. It requires a crucifixion of pride, because no one is more trustworthy than God” ([Commentary on] Romans, p. 35).
Note Dr. Sproul’s key point that God-pleasing faith means crucifying our pride. This is another way of saying, as Paul does in [Galatians 3:10-14], that we give up trying to attain our own righteousness before the Lord. The righteousness of God revealed in the gospel is ours by faith alone, for it is God’s gift to His people, the result of His saving acts that fulfill His promises to redeem His elect (Rom. 1:16-17; 3:21-26; 4:1-5; 5:12-21). To say that the righteous live by faith does not mean only that God’s people believe in Him but also that those whom the Lord declares to be righteous trust in Him alone. The essence of such faith is believing God in contrast to doing works of obedience. Galatians 3:10-14 contrasts these ways of establishing our relationship with the Father. No one can be declared righteous before God by obeying His law, for the law demands perfect obedience for our justification – our right standing before Him – and no sinner can obey God perfectly. Hoping even a little in our good works of obedience puts us under the Lord’s curse (vv. 10, 12). Our only hope is to trust Christ alone. In so doing, we are redeemed by His death from God’s curse for breaking His law, and Christ’s righteousness is imputed to our account, making our standing before the Lord all of grace (vv. 11, 13-14).
Attempting to earn our right standing before God is the stance of pride, the arrogant assertion that our sin-tainted good works can meet His perfect standard. It is not the stance of faith, which rests wholly in Christ alone for His righteousness.
Coram Deo
We can say with certainty that the one temptation that all people have in common is the temptation to believe we can make ourselves right with God, that our efforts, even when done with His help, are good enough; rather, we are to be perfect (Matt. 5:48). That means that only Christ’s perfect righteousness can suffice to put us in a right relationship with the Father. We must trust in Him and Him alone.
From Ligonier Ministries and R.C. Sproul. © Tabletalk magazine. Website: www.ligonier.org/tabletalk. Email: [email protected]. Toll free: 1-800-435-4343.
*Justification: “a forensic (legal) term related to the idea of acquittal, justification refers to the divine act whereby God makes humans, who are sinful and therefore worthy of condemnation, acceptable before a God who is holy and righteous.” (Grenz, Guretzika & Nordling, Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms)
Excellent article!
I’d like to kick-off the comments by reminding everyone that the LDS church believes in a two tier or levels of salvation. The first level would be called universal in that it’s available to everyone who has ever lived regardless. The second level of LDS salvation is that which is “earned” through the LDS system of works.
The point is that the faithful Mormon does all that he/she can do to merit the reward and then at the end God’s grace closes the gap. The faithful Mormon never knows if he or she has done enough. OOPS there’s an exception to the rule. There are those Mormons who are deemed having had done enough and they get to go through a super secret ceremony closing the deal.
Now what is being “earned” is becoming a deity just like the LDS heavenly father and mother or mothers because the LDS god of this world is not only a former sinful man but also a polygamist.
The reason we need to keep these things straight is that when Mormons come here and post on a topic such as this, their reference point is LDS style Mormonism. When Christians post, our reference point is the Bible. The Bible clearly teaches that we are saved by faith through grace and it has nothing to do with our own efforts. Walking in the Spirit or in the light is the result of our coming to Christ in faith and being born again. We become the temple of the Holy Spirit since He indwells us who are trusting in Christ for our salvation.
The New Testament testimony about how salvation is received is clear , and is stated over and
over . Eph 2:8-9 is one example . But religious organizations which have created a law keeping
system whereby members can earn salvation ( eternal life ) stand in contrast to what Jesus’
apostles taught . The system Mormon leaders have created is an example . However the gospel
of salvation which the N.T. reveals is not a system , a program of works , rather it is the simple
message , the good news that sinful man can be forgiven and reconciled to God because of the
sacrafice of Jesus on the cross and His resurrection , and by admitting one is a sinner incapable
of earning salvation asks for pardon . This simple trust in God and in Jesus as personal Savior
allows God to fully forgive and give the gift of eternal life . No secret temple rituals , no
confessing a man as prophet at the top , no climbing a ” gospel ladder ” up to God’s home
above , the rungs of which are works to merit eternal life .
The Mormon people are told they must earn eternal life by doing all the laws and rules of
what they have told is the ” restored ” gospel of Jesus Christ . But their gospel is a good
counterfeit , something Paul warned would appear — Gal 1:8 , and in these days we have
seen his warning come true with the advent of Mormonism’s ” restored” gospel .
Trying to mix works and faith and claim that that is how eternal life is received is a vain attempt
to make one’s self worthy before God in order for Him to grant access to His home above .
But mixing these two is like mixing oil and water . Salvation is by faith alone . Justified by faith
in Jesus . He is the way — Jn 14:6 . Mormonism’s ” gospel ladder ” is not .
What I have noticed in my study of Mormonism (for outreach purposes), is that LDS teaching does not recognize the Adamic sin problem that necessitates a need to become right with God, as is stated in the 2nd LDS Article of Faith. There is not a universal problem of a lack of holiness; no great chasm separating sinful man from a holy God.
It is my understanding that LDS are just trying to become the best people they can by making right choices, and through that, they hope to eventually acquire God’s divine attributes, theirs by inheritance as his actual physical children.
Christian evangelists need to recognize this LDS world view, otherwise we will be spinning our wheels when trying to reach them. Before you get to the grace versus law talk, you need to start with the truth that humans have a monumental problem we cannot fix on our own. We need outside help.
I get what all of you are trying to get across to Mormons. You are saying that temple works and living a good little Mormon life by abiding by all the words of the LDS prophets will not grant them inheritance in the world to come. I can agree with all of that.
What I dont agree with is your interpretation of Galations 3 and your idea that the laws given in the OT were a curse. You cannot use Galations 3 as an argument that we are not obligated to obey the law because that is referring to the law of sacrifice and offerings.
Consider this. Why would God go to all that trouble of sending Moses and Aaron to speak to Pharoah, sending the plagues, parting the sea and revealing His character and nature to the people at Mt. Sinai just to curse them? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!
The ten commandments are not a curse! They are instructions in how we are to live and they bring life to those who obey them. If they are a curse than I guess we have throw out all of the writings in scripture that say they arent. That wont leave you with much.
Catty, bear in mind that we believe that what Christ told us about lustilly looking at a woman is to commit adultery; that getting angry is murder; etc. such that the law is there not for specific behavior but rather to protect our hearts. You also must remember that we believe that when people are in Christ, that is fully believing in Him, they will do right thing. Their hearts will be protected.
This is an immensely difficult thing to do, but that is what is required. Its even more difficult than living a life fully within the bounds of OT law. Being in faith requires a full relinquishment of control to God, and not ticking off boxes. If you are like me, that is the most difficult thing to do.
Homeschoolmom– Great insight. It is indeed the realization that we are sinners that is a prerequisite to recognizing we need a savior to begin with. Tough realization for many.
Cattyjane~ The law is good. The problem is we are not. Trying to follow the law exclusively becomes a curse for us because we cannot follow it 100% perfectly all the time, and that is what a holy God requires. Read this:
Romans 7:14-25New International Version (NIV)
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Sharon,
As an ex-mormon one of the hardest things to wrap my mind around was justification by faith alone. Mainly because of articles like this one that swing way to far to one side and don’t tell the whole story. My intent here is to clarify the relationship between works and faith. We are indeed justified before God on the basis of faith alone. Here in lies the problem. Even demons and satan believe in Christ, so what does the kind of faith that justifies look like? You see there is no faith vs doing. Faith and doing are not opposites, they are actually inseparable. A faith that doesn’t produce doing is a dead faith. That’s exactly what James meant when he said “15 If a brother or sister is without clothes and lacks daily food 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you don’t give them what the body needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way faith, if it doesn’t have works, is dead by itself.” A faith that doesn’t produce fruits such as, striving for personal holiness, hatred of Sin, thirst for the Word of God, and a love for the lost is a dead faith. The key here is that we rely on our faith for justification and not the fruit of that faith. The error comes when we look at our fruits and some how think that they merit something from God or make us more deserving of His Grace. We are not trying to earn our Salvation, and that’s why we rely on our faith alone for justification. However saving faith will always produce doing. Faith and works are inseparable. Works are the fruit of our justification not the cause. Take for instance a passenger on a plane who has a parachute under his seat. He can have faith that the parachute is there, he can even believe it has the ability to save his life, however it will do him no good unless he puts it on. It is the same way with Christ. We must have faith enough to put on Christ if we hope to be justified. Any other faith is dead. If you look back on sermons from all the greats like, Calvin, Luther, Ryle, Spurgeon, Wesley and Tozer you will see that they all put a great deal of emphasis on striving for Holiness in the life of a believer. Was it because God will love us more if we are Holy? No. Was it because we would be more worthy of His Grace? No. It’s because as our love for God grows so should our desire for Holiness. A faith that doesn’t motivate you towards action is not a saving faith. Satan always sends errors into the world in pairs. He hopes that our dislike of one error will drive us to the other error. Legalism and justification by works are the extreme side of the error that Mormonism is on. Easy believism which involves a faith that doesn’t produce a new life in the believer which includes bearing fruit is the other side of the extreme. In the middle is where we find the proper relationship between faith and action. I’ll leave you with a quote from one of my favorite preachers.
“The union with Christ which produces no effect on heart and life is a mere formal union, which is worthless before God. The faith which has not a sanctifying influence on the character is no better than the faith of devils.”
― J.C. Ryle, Holiness
cattyjane,
I think we’ve discussed this with you previously but we have no lurkers tuning in all the time so it’s a good idea to continue to cover the topics.
If I remember correctly, the last time we discussed this it ended on whether or not we are under the Old Covenant or the New Covenant. In Jeremiah 31:34, the new heart covenant, what is foreshadowed is the New Heart Covenant.
“No longer shall they teach one another, or say to each other, “Know the Lord,” for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and remember their sin no more.”
To read it all it talks about the Law that none of God’s people were able to keep. Paul’s entire message is about the Jews wanting to put the gentile believers in Christ under the Law.
Maybe I’m missing something but I don’t get your point because what I’m seeing is you arguing with the apostle Paul.
Now as to grace. A total waste of time to discuss “grace” with LDS folks. They don’t even know who God is so a discussion of grace would be in the context of them doing the works required by the LDS system so they can become gods.
Luvinlife, I understand what you are talking about with one-sided articles and arguments about justification by faith alone. There are all kinds of reasons why people will appear to or actually be swinging too far away from works as you put it.
Sharon can certainly speak d for herself but I would just like to point out that Sharon was not writing a comprehensive treatment on works and faith. Rather, she was only speaking about justification. And just as you said justification comes based only on faith in Christ.
I’m sure Sharon agrees with you that works inevitably come about from true faith and that a faith that shows no in the person is certainly suspect. But this is not what she was writing about.
The subject of works, faith, justification, and sanctification us completed enough, let alone when discussed with Mormons. It is necessary to try to keep things simple. Also Mormons tend to ignore a comprehensive treatment and get bogged down in their own insistence of they’re own beliefs instead of trying to really understand what Christians believe.
So, I suspect, many if not most articles that seem to swing to far to faith only are actually just dealing with justification, which again you correctly stated is based not on works but on true faith. They are not even attempting to fully flesh out that place of works in the Christian life, as you correctly stated are the natural fruit of true faith.
Sorry about the many typos!
OOPS……I meant to type “new” in the first line of my above post and it came out “no”. I think most of you figured it out.
Now………………I’m not a moderator on this blog but I do claim a certain amount of “status” based on seniority.
I’m afraid that if we get off on a discussion of the Mosaic Law and how it applies to the NT Church and salvation, we will be way too far in the weeds for a Mormon lurker. I think what is helpful is to contrast the LDS system of works and Law with the NT gospel of salvation by faith through God’s grace.
As Christians, may I repeat myself, our works are the result of our faith. I think that the Lord must have been preparing me for this discussion last night because He had me reading in First John 2:1-6.
We have an “Advocate” with the Father; Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins. If we have come to know Him we keep His commandments. If we say we are “in” Him we ought to walk as He walked.
So the point is that the LDS member is trying to become a god through a system of Laws and regulations defined by the Mormon system. This is not what the Bible teaches. So they have to decide if they are going to follow those who claim to be prophets or God’s Word.
luvinlife said,
The error comes when we look at our fruits and some how think that they merit something from God or make us more deserving of His Grace.
I say,
Exactly, Works are the fruit of God’s Grace and not the cause of it.
When Christians talk about the law as a curse it’s because we have experienced firsthand the curse of trying to earn God’s favor by Law-keeping and the horrible realization that no matter what we do we will never be able measure up.
cattyJane says,
They are instructions in how we are to live and they bring life to those who obey them.
I say,
DO You obey the instructions? Not try to obey them but obey them? Not obey them some of the time but all the time?
No offense but I think you might need to let the Law do the work of conviction it was intended to do. God does not grade on the curve.
I hear someone telling me how the law brings life I think of what God’s word says about it
quote:
I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
(Rom 7:9-11)
end quote:
Law when combined with the sin that lives in me is poison it will kill for sure.
If I did not have a sinful nature the law would bring life but that ship sailed a long time ago. I’ve been a sinner since before I was born (Psalm 54:5)
That is what we mean when we say the law is a curse.
back to the bible
quote:
Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin…………….
(Rom 7:13-14)
end quote:
This is my experience in a nut shell I am of the flesh I can’t obey the law.
The Law hangs over me like a certain Death sentence shouting to all who will pay attention. “this man deserves to die”
That is the hopeless state I am in But………………………
quote:
Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
(Rom 7:24-25a)
and
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
(Rom 8:1)
end quote:
does that mean that I can do now what ever I want??
Quote:
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
(Rom 6:1-2)
end quote:
Once you understand Grace correctly it all becomes so clear.
peace
However
My point was that it is useless to talk about justification by faith alone without talking about what faith that justifies looks like. When you try to put faith and doing as being opposed to each other I think you do a great disservice to the understanding of their relationship. This is part of the reason that mormons and many professing Christians misunderstand Grace. This article, though I know it doesn’t mean to come across that way, almost makes it appear that one can be saved by a faith that doesn’t produce fruit. This of course is totally unscriptural. Let me see if I can put this into perspective and I think it will tie in good with what Cattyjane is struggling with. The kind of faith that justifies us before God is a faith that will move us into action. It’s a faith that will produce an indwelling of the Spirit. This is all part of the New Birth. We all know that we can’t enter heaven unless we are born again. The book of 1 John lays out perfectly what the birthmarks are for a person who has experienced the New Birth.
“Sanctification, again, is the only certain evidence of that indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is essential to salvation. “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His.” (Rom. viii. 9.) The Spirit never lies dormant and idle within the soul: He always makes His presence known by the fruit He causes to be borne in heart, character, and life. “The fruit of the Spirit,” says St. Paul, “is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance,” and such like. (Gal. v. 22.) Where these things are to be found, there is the Spirit: where these things are wanting, men are dead before God. The Spirit is compared to the wind, and, like the wind, He cannot be seen by our bodily eyes. But just as we know there is a wind by the effect it produces on waves, and trees, and smoke, so we may know the Spirit is in a man by the effects He produces in the man’s conduct. It is nonsense to suppose that we have the Spirit, if we do not also “walk in the Spirit.” (Gal. v. 25.) We may depend on it as a positive certainty, that where there is no holy living there is no Holy Ghost. The seal that the Spirit stamps on Christ’s people is sanctification. As many as are actually “led by the Spirit of God, they,” and they only, “are the sons of God.” (Rom. viii. 14.)” J.C. Ryle
The same Grace that will justify you will also Sanctify you. If the Holy Ghost is not moving you toward sanctification then you can guarantee you haven’t been Justified. The two are inseparable. You can’t be Justified without also moving on to sanctification. It is the same way with works and faith. You can’t separate them. Theres no need to, but when you try to explain justification by faith alone without showing some one where works and obedience come in, you end up making them think your are proposing some kind of easy believism (which I know you are not promoting). This is why I dislike this article. I feel like any attempt to explain Justification to a Mormon should also include the proper place for works and obedience. How they flow from an internal change that happens during the New Birth rather than trying to pit works and faith against each other. Works and obedience are a big part of justification, they are the fruit not the root. Where there is no fruit you can guarantee there is no justification. We are not justified by the fruit we bear, but we will always bear fruit if we have been justified. Anyway here is the quote from J.C. Ryle that I think will really help Catty.
“Genuine sanctification will show itself in habitual respect to God’s law, and habitual effort to live in obedience to it as the rule of life. There is no greater mistake than to suppose that a Christian has nothing to do with the Law and the ten Commandments, because he cannot be justified by keeping them. The same Holy Ghost who convinces the believer of sin by the law, and leads him to Christ for justification, will always lead him to a spiritual use of the law, as a friendly guide, in the pursuit of sanctification. Our Lord Jesus Christ never made light of the Ten Commandments: on the contrary, in His first public discourse, the Sermon on the Mount He expounded them, and showed the searching nature of their requirements. St. Paul never made light of the law: on the contrary, he says, “The law is good, if a man use it lawfully.”–“I delight in the law of God after the inward man.” (1 Tim. i. 8; Rom. vii. 22.) He that pretends to be a saint, while he sneers at the Ten Commandments, and thinks nothing of lying, hypocrisy, swindling, ill-temper, slander, drunkenness, and breach of the seventh commandment, is under a fearful delusion. He will find it hard to prove that he is a “saint” in the last day!” J.C. Ryle, Holiness
The Law was never meant to save us, but to bring us to the Cross. To show us our need for a Savior. The Law was our School master to Bring us to Christ. When we are Born again we die to the law only in the sense that we die to sin and the Flesh. We live by the Spirit, and in doing so we will by default keep the Law. The Law of God is a representation of his Holiness and is only a curse to us in that it shows how far separated from God we are and how much we need Christ. If one claims to be living by the spirit then there should be fruits present in their life as described in Galatians Ch 5. The error here is for one to think that you can will fully and intentionally disobey the Ten commandments and consider yourself a born again Christian. The two are not compatible. Obedience doesn’t justify us, but those who have been justified will be obedient to the Lord they Serve. That same spirit that worked in you the faith towards justification will move on to sanctification. The Holy Ghost doesn’t stop at Justification. A half explanation of justification and works like this article gives will only further confuse the Mormon and have him believing that you are proposing cheap grace (which I know you are not).
cattyjane ,
Falcon beat t it but I was going to ask you that it would be more in line with this ministries
target audience ( LDS) to confine the discussion to the difference between the Mormon gospel
of law keeping to earn eternal life , compared to the N.T. testimony of faith alone in Jesus is
the only requirement for receiving eternal life . AS Christians we look t the N.T. and what the
apostles of Jesus taught about how a sinner can receive forgiveness and be reconciled to God —
it’s all because of Jesus , a heart surrendered to Him trusting in His merits alone to make us
righteous before God allowing Him to let us into His home above . Trying to consistently keep
all the laws in the O.T. can not accomplish this , and the blood of animals as an offering to God
had their day but the Messiah has come and salvation is now by bending the knee to Him and
admitting we can’t get to heaven the ” way ” in the O.T. Jesus the Jewish Messiah alone is the
Way . It saddens us here that you won’t accept the Messiah and worship Him with the rest of
us . But hopefully one day you’ll accept Jesus’ invitation at Matt. 11:28 . We won’t stop
praying for you to make that decision .
luvinlife ,
I don’t think this article has swung to far to one side . You mentioned ” easy believism ” , that
tells me that perhaps this behavior has affected your take on works vrs faith . I say this
because I know Mormons have a real misunderstanding about this as they insinuate this is
how we believe etc. It’s kind of a straw man reasoning on their part , because it makes it
easier to refute . Now I could be wrong on my assessment of your comments but I sense you
might have yourself slid slightly to far to one side , at least it appears that way to me in some
of what you stated .
Yet I take heart in knowing that because you have correctly rejected the Mormon notion about
this issue , because as you stated , ” we are not trying to earn our salvation , and that’s why
we rely on our faith alone for justification ” , that you do know the N.T. truth about how
eternal life is received — faith alone in Jesus , justified by faith alone .
So thanks for standing on that truth .
Mike R,
Please read my first response carefully. I am not accusing the poster or writer of the article of intentionally promoting easy believism. What I am saying is that this type of article adds to the confusion for a Mormon. I think my take on works and faith is spot on. A faith that doesn’t produce works is not a saving faith plain and simple. No amount of works will justify you. Works help us to understand what a saving faith looks like. There for if we try to convince a mormon that the scriptures teach Justification is by faith alone without helping him understand where works and obedience come in then we will leave him confused by all the passages that talk about works and obedience. The Mormon will get stumped on verses like Hebrews 12: 14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. You see righteousness is imputed too us when we believe, but not holiness. If you pit faith and doing against each other, you go a long way in confusing a mormon about the relationship between the two. It’s my opinion that his article doesn’t do a good job of explaining the relationship between justification by faith alone and the relationship to works. Instead it actually goes a long way in confusing the two. Let me ask you this, can a person be justified by faith in Christ, yet still live a life of willful disobedience to Christ? This is the type of cofusion that a person gets into when they don’t fully understand what saving faith looks like. The important thing for a mormon to understand it that obedience to laws only changes behavior. It doesn’t change the heart. We have a heart problem that can only be fixed by the Grace of God which we receive through faith. The works that we produce as born again Christians are out of love and appreciation for the Grace and Mercy that we have received. They are selfless and spring from the internal change that God’s Grace works in us. Works that Mormons do are always tainted with a selfish reason, because they feel they are a requirement to earn God’s Love and Grace. They fail to realize that God loved us before we ever loved Him. His love for us is always the same, and even after we are born again that love never changes. A born again Christian’s works and obedience don’t change God’s love for them one bit. His love is unconditional. Their works and obedience flow out from a sincere desire to live a life that honors God and shows appreciation for the Grace He has Given me. To sum it up a Mormon relies on themselves and their discipline to bring about change that will warrant Gods love and Mercy. A born again Christian relies on the Grace of God to uproot the sinful tendencies he has in his heart in order to closen his walk with God. All the while knowing that he was no more saved after a life of relentless obedience than he was at the moment he first truly believed.
luvinlife,
I’m fading and need to go to bed but you are sounding very Catholic. I know because that’s what I was reared in attending Catholic school. Maybe my eyes are glazing over but that’s what I’m hearing you say.
For Example:
For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after baptism. . . .Baptism is the source of that new life in Christ from which the entire Christian life springs forth.” (CCC 1254)
This is the basis of the Catholic teaching of justification, which is not brought about in a mere moment, as the Protestant, rejecting works, would hold. Rather, as the Council of Trent teaches, justification “is not only the remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior person through the voluntary reception of grace and of the gifts. . .that one may be an heir in hope of eternal life.”
Interior sanctification and renewal – that is, growth in faith – occurs through works: of prayer, of charity, and of faith itself. It is God who sanctifies us, but we have to commit our freedom to his work. This is the Catholic doctrine of works and cooperation. And so we can say with St. James: “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” (2:26)
http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/faith-or-works-a-different-approach.html
When you believe in Christ, you have already put on the parachute. It’s not under the seat.
Thank you, Falcon. Spot on.
I don’t think we should judge what is in a Mormon’s heart or their motivations. What we should focus on is what Mormonism TEACHES. I think many Mormons do works out of love and appreciation.
Luvinlife,
You are 100% right on target. Doesn’t sound Catholic at all to me. Sounds exactly like what the Messiah and his students would have been teaching when they were walking around Jerusalem. You are right that God raised the bar of the obedience he expects from us. Its no longer “do not commit adultery” but also “do not even have lust in your heart”. We have the spirit of the Creator with us to guide us and urge us to follow in his ways. The people before the spirit was given did not always have the spirit with them. I think you explained things very well and I think how you presented it would have been a much better way to present the argument. You are right that it confuses LDS to hear it presented the other way, and rightfully so because it is not correct.
Everyone else:
Choosing to serve a King is also admitting that his laws are good. By bowing before him we are saying I will serve you even unto death and I will do as you say. It is not service to elevate ourselves or earn some kind of merit badge. It is obedience so that we can shine the light on the King in order to show others The Name that we bear. This is what Israel was told to do. They were told to be a light to all the nations. If we live in darkness and serve the things of this world than that is the name that we bear for the world to see. This is what the Third Commandment meant when it said that we are not to bear his name falsely. If we live according to the commandments and instructions that were given to us by the King, than we bear His name for the world to see.
I can see the line forming of requesting me to be banned already with the responses that came from Falcon and Mike R, so I will make this short and sweet. I have no intentions of being a distraction from the topic no matter how much I disagree with it.
Since I was accused of not believing in the Messiah of the NT I feel that I should be able to defend myself against that, however “off topic” it might be.
From my reading in Daniel 9, I know that the Messiah had to come before the destruction of the 2nd temple. The only person, that I know of so far, who made claims to be the Messiah before the second temple was destroyed was Jesus Christ. If JC was not the Messiah than there is no Messiah and this is all a hoax because the 2 Temple is destroyed. So do i think that Jesus Christ/Yeshua was the promised Messiah? I think it is the best argument presented. I don’t see how anyone else could be based on the textual arguments. I think he died a righteous death. I think that his death atones for the unrighteous in the same way that the death of a High Priest allowed those who were exiled to cities of refuge for sins that they had committed to be allowed to return home.
I hope this settles things. If you want to email me about anything I have written please feel free to. I don’t want to cause any problems or deter you from the doctrine that you want to present on this site.
[email protected]
Cattyjane,
I have seen nothing from you that would warrant banning.
ok good to know grindael. Thanks
cattyjane,
Mormons are locked into Law. It’s called the Word of Wisdom. The Word of Wisdom can’t save them regardless of how well they keep it or how sincere they are. Paul talks about the “moral” man in the first three chapters of Romans. The moral man is not saved.
I think Mormons are very proud of their behavior but since the god of Mormonism isn’t “God” but a formerly sinful man who by keeping the “system” became a god; they can’t be saved. Just any god will not do.
Jesus was the qualified Savior. He was God incarnate. Only God could make the perfect sacrifice for sins.
Now when we are talking about the “Law” as it is referenced in the NT, we are talking about the Mosaic Law. That’s why there was such a controversy over whether or not the gentile believers should be circumcised. The controversy was not about moral behavior but about the Mosaic Law.
Christ’s death completed or finished off the Law in regards to salvation because now believers had the Holy Spirit indwelling them.
So #1 I can’t see why you would think that you would be banned from posting here. We’re having a vigorous discussion. I just want to make sure that Mormons who come here and read understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ and how it contrasts with the false “restored” gospel promoted by the LDS church. It’s simply not a different way of looking at the same thing.
#2 I want the faithful LDS member to know that as believers in Christ we don’t think that we can sin with impunity because we are saved. We walk in the light as He is in the light and the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all unrighteousness. If we do sin we have an Advocate with the Father, that is Jesus Christ.
So please don’t take offense at Mike and I and our desire to stay focused on Jesus and what He has done for us and the result of our putting our faith and trust in Him for our salvation.
You’ve come a long way in your walk and through study have learned and digested a significant amount of information.
When you first came here our concern for you was that you come to know Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Think about where you were then and where these Mormons who come here and read are now.
Being a Packer fan I remember Vince Lombardi saying, “Football is a simple game. It’s blocking and tackling.” Coming to Christ is not a complex thing as the Gospel is straight forward and clear. We can talk about election and all sorts of topic, for example, but what people need to know is that they are separated from God because of their sin and that through faith in Christ, they can have eternal life because of what He did for them. Not what they think they can do for themselves.
cattyjane,
you said , ” I can see the line forming of requesting me to be banned already with the responses
that came from Falcon and Mike R ….”
Golly, catty are you that sensitive ? In no way was I desiring that you be banned , I simply was
reminding you that this whole issue should be centered on how Mormonism teaches a false
gospel — one of doing works to earn eternal life . The New Testament does not teach this .
In other words this is a Mormon vrs christian contrast . That’s all I meant . Please don’t be
offended .
Remember all I said was , ” It saddens us here that won’t accept the Messiah and worship Him
with the rest of us . But hopefully one day you’ll accept His invitation at Matt 11:28 …”
Now from I hear you saying is that Jesus could be , or is the best bet to be , the Messiah .
I am glad to hear that . But that is not the same as confessing Him to your personal Savior
( Messiah ) , and that can happen by asking Him to be such . Like I said hopefully one day
soon that will happen . That’s my hope and prayer for you .
Catty, I think everyone here appreciates you so much, and while we don’t see everything eye to eye, there is indeed a respect here that should not be discounted.
As to works/faith, it really comes down to points of emphasis. I challenge you to find a Christian who says following Christ is easy. Just name one serious Christian who says that the task of following Jesus is an easy thing to do. There’s a reason he told us to pick up our cross when we follow him. Its tough and its difficult and it presents so many challenges we can’t even begin to discuss them.
That it is difficult and it is work though does not take away from our need to focus on him. We put our focus on him not so that we don’t have to work, but so that our hearts will be protected and we will be in God’s favor. Putting our focus on him and following him will keep us within the spirit of the OT law, whether we eat pork or not. The written law is irrelevant because we are within the rules of the game when we are following Christ.
We will fail when we follow him. We just will. And that’s where the beauty of Christ’s sacrifice comes in: as long as we turn again to follow him, we are still saved. There’s nothing more to do: he’s done it all and all we have to do is to accept it.
I don’t know about the losing your salvation issue. I have my opinions, but find the discussion largely irrelevant as long as our hearts are with God. Sure, there are those fall away and never return, who probably never really believed. There are those who strive fully and always for his heart, and are quick to bend their knees and pray for forgiveness.
But there are also those who start believing, then don’t, but continue doing the right things and put on all the right appearances. They follow all the rules and do everything they are supposed to, but don’t believe. This is where the focus on Christ becomes important, because we cannot know what others think, and outside appearances don’t always mean something.
Our focus cannot be on the rules or the law. Our focus needs to be on Christ. If our focus is on Christ, we are within the law. This, though, means the law is alive and well.
luvinlife ,
I appreciate your concern that when Christians explain justification to a Mormon that the
place where works come into the christian life needs to be articulated clearly , lest we confuse
them etc . I still have to disagree with your opinion about this article . It was about how a
sinner can be justified ,declared righteous , before God so that He can acquit them and allows
them into His presence in heaven . This article substance centered on that truth , that’s all .
There is certainly additional information on MRM that explains about where works come in
play in a Christians life .
You said , ” If you pit faith and doing against each other you go a long way in confusing
a Mormon about the relationship between the two . ”
I agree that showing a Mormon where works come into play in one’s life is very important .
But , faith and doing need to be pitted against each other when explaining HOW a sinner is
saved , because ONLY faith alone ( trust ) in Jesus as personal Savior is how salvation is
received . When it comes to being Justified , faith and works are separate . It’s only after
the gift of eternal life is received that works come into play . Salvation is issue .
What does saving faith look life ? It does’nt ” look like ” anything because it is invisible to man.
It takes place in the heart of a sinner when he confesses is sin and asks for pardon God then
sees his faith ( trust ) and forgives , justifies .
If saving faith looks like good works done by a person , then Mormons are saved because they
do a ton of good works . However they have been deceived into trusting the wrong Jesus ( spirit
brother of Satan ) and have been counseled that eternal life is earned by climbing the ” gospel
ladder” created by their leaders . One rung on this ladder is doing temple rituals etc .
You asked me a question : ” …. can a person be justified by faith in Christ , yet still live a life
of willfull disobedience to Christ ? ”
Short answer : yes . If by ” living a life of willfull disobedience ” you mean periods of personal
struggle and will full disobeying Jesus , this is something that christians as sinners will
unfortunately go through at times if they live long enough ( 1Jn 1:9 ) .
I appreciate the comments you made about the differences between your former religion
(LDS) and your new faith in Jesus .
You made some great comments :
” We are NOT justified by the fruit we bear , but we will always bear fruit if we have been
justified .”
” A born again Christian relies on the Grace of God to uproot the sinful tendencies he has in his
heart in order to closen (?) his walk with God . All the while knowing that he was no more
saved after a life of relentless obedience than when he was at the moment he first believed . ”
Salvation : thru faith alone in Christ alone .
Thank you Jesus that you are not the spirit brother of Satan , that you are the Creator and
Savior of heaven and earth . You alone have the ability to save sinners who come to bow at
your feet and ask for pardon . Heb 7:25
One thing that hit me reading through some of these posts is that the Christian salvation is indeed a complicated and difficult matter. There’s really quite a lot that goes into it, and a lot of important questions need to be answered when addressing it.
The bottom line of Christian salvation is that faith in Jesus saves. However, getting to that bottom line requires much more analysis. For those who do not understand the nuances here, or to those who may object to certain aspects of what is being presented here, understand that addressing all the ins and outs of the doctrine has filled up books. Expecting a perfect analysis in a single blog entry at a site dedicated to ministering to Mormons is perhaps unrealistic, which is to say the topic of this entry is entitled “The Law is Not of Faith” and discusses how are faith should be in Jesus, not the law. This is a true statement, but does not necessarily mean the law is dead or that we should not work within our faith.
Well as long as we’re at it, having covered justification, let’s head on over to sanctification. The former occurs when we confess Jesus as Lord and accept His sacrifice as payment for our sins. The latter is the process that takes place after we are saved/justified and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
So let’s muddy the waters here. Do our works sanctify us. We know we are saved by faith a part from any works that we can do to contribute to our salvation.
Any way, here’s the conclusion to an article that I found interesting:
“To Protestants who aren’t used to the Catholic view of justification and sanctification, this picture can seem confusing and even contradictory. In hopes of making it clearer, let me use an analogy: God breathed life into Adam when he was just dust. After having life breathed into him, Adam had to cooperate in maintaining that life by eating. Adam’s not alive because he ate: he’s alive because God breathed life into him. You didn’t somehow merit being alive by eating breakfast. But if Adam stops eating, even when he feels the internal call to, he’ll eventually die. So the breath of God is roughly the role that Grace and faith play here, while eating is roughly the role that the expression of faith through love (“good works”) takes. Breath precedes eating, and is necessary for it to be of any worth. But once we’ve come from dust to life in Christ (once He’s breathed His life into us, so to speak), we’re not to reject that internal call to charity, and if we do, it’s damnable: our faith dies, and we die with it. That’s how we can simultaneously affirm that Adam’s life came from the breath of God, and not anything he did, whether eating, or any other thing (cf. Romans 3:28); and at the same time affirm that if Adam doesn’t eat, he’ll be dead (cf. James 2:26).”
“Protestants are of the view that “if you’re truly alive, you’ll eat,” while Catholics are of the view that “if you don’t eat, you’l die.” The Bible sides with the Catholic view: that there are folks who have faith, but then refuse to act on that faith, killing it. But quite frankly, these two views aren’t very far apart. I’m strongly of the opinion that the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism on justification is one of inches, not miles, when we get past the buzz and actually hear what the other side actually proclaims. But to get to those views, we have to be patient, and seek to understand what the other Christian actually believes.”
So if we do the compare/contrast exercise between Protestant/Catholic doctrine on justification and sanctification, according to at least one source, there isn’t much separating it.
However if we compare/contrast the Protestant, Catholic and LDS sect doctrines, they aren’t even close. In fact the LDS stance is so far removed to be rightly labeled a false religious cult. Here’s the deal with the different denominations of Christianity. First of all we are dealing with the same God. When it comes to Mormonism, LDS sect brand, there’s a different god.
Mormons who have posted here in the past are always wondering why I won’t read the BoM to see if it’s true. I tell them I don’t have to because I know Mormonism has a different god. I also know that Mormonism has a different gospel. So why would I bother reading something that I already know is false based on the “god” of Mormonism and the false restored gospel of the same? In addition, I’m not all that interested in the claims of a guy who said he dug up some golden plates as directed by an angel who supposedly appeared to him and then this guy used a magic rock he put in his hat to decipher a language that doesn’t exist. He did so without even having the gold plates present but just conjured it all with his magic rock in his hat.
I know coming to knowledge such as this is often a deal breaker for LDS folks and they dump the religion. Actually what I’d prefer is that they come to a knowledge of who God is, what His plan of salvation entails and become born again by the Spirit of God through faith in Jesus Christ.
I just read the last half-dozen or so comments and, while it may not be common practice, I’ve got to say these are great posts and this may be one of the best threads I’ve seen on MC, given the complexity and crucial nature of the topics.
MJP ,
I think that if we keep it simple in a presentation to Mormons about how a person is saved
is very important . It’s all about Jesus .
The last few years has seen some Mormon apologists use terms in a way that imply that they
are either changing their belief in works to a slight degree , or they are being clever to sound
more like Evangelicals in an effort to snow them . For this latter reason we need to be very
precise on where works come to play in the life of a born again believer .
Remember Fof F saying that he is saved by grace not works ? That’s my point .
These types of Mormons can play word games very effectively .
I like what luvinlife said about works : ” The works that we produce as born again Christians
are out of love and appreciation for the Grace and Mercy that we have received . They are
selfless and spring from the internal change that God’s Grace works in us . Works that
Mormons do are always tainted with a selfish reason , because they feel they area requirement
to earn God’s Love and Grace . ”
Mormonism’s infamous ” gospel ladder” is a very tall ladder designed by Mormon leaders to
enable a person to climb up to God’s house above and receive the fullest of blessings of
eternal life there . They earn eternal life there by climbing the rungs ( works ) .
But the New Testament knows no such gospel .
We get to share the good news about Jesus to the Mormon people .
The confusion surrounding works and faith is nothing new.
Some of Paul’s listeners thought he was advocating Christians engage in immoral lawless behavior (Romans 3:8) and At the same time some people got the idea that works saved you by listening to James. (Galatians 2:12).
The fact is both men were preaching the exact same Gospel of Grace.
The Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing so folks who proclaim it will always be misunderstood in some circles. It is just a fact.
I won’t apologize for my only hope or water it down to try and win favor with folks who won’t ever understand any way
The stodgy old puritan John Bunyan wrote:
” Run, John, and work, the law commands,
yet finds me neither feet nor hands,
But sweeter news the gospel brings,
it bids me fly and lends me wings!”
and at the same time Martin Luther who faced down nothing less than the authority of the Pope for the gospel of free grace said:
“We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.”
again both men were saying exactly the same thing
nuff said
Well thank you………………………spartacus!
Some days I think I’m operating in a vacuum and wondering why I’m doing this but I can’t quit; at least for now. It’s turned into a God directed obsession. I’ve asked Him if He doesn’t have anything else for me to do and then I’m back peck, peck, pecking away on the keyboard.
Since fmm brought up Martin Luther, I thought I’d take a look at the verses that changed his life. How are the righteous to live? Are we to live by works, or has God designed His program around something else. I think this author sums it up nicely.
“These verses in Romans 1:16-17 have a fair claim to be the most important verses in the entire Bible. I can think of only one other passage that might rival these verses in importance, and that is John 3:16. But for us, Romans 1:16-17 can easily make the claim that they are more important.”
“You might think I am exaggerating. But I do not think I am. All of God’s Word is important. However, some verses are more central in importance. There can be no verses more central in importance than these two verses. These are the verses that changed Martin Luther. May they change us as well.”
“The power of God mentioned here is the power of God for salvation. The power of God is manifested in many ways throughout Scripture, but the most amazing form God’s power takes is the power of salvation. This is nothing less that God justifying the ungodly, resurrecting dead souls, bringing them from death to life, infusing His Holy Spirit into the person from the Word. The power that God has put into His Word is the same power that changes people. ”
http://greenbaggins.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/the-verses-that-changed-luther/
So here it is; that which turned Luther around.
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
The closer for Luther was that “the righteous shall live by faith”. He tried everything he could to find some peace with God but it was futile. His confessor finally said to him, “Why don’t you actually go out and commit a sin so you have something to confess”. The confessor was exasperated with Luther and his attempts to do something, anything to get some inner peace.
I think striving to be righteous is a fools errand, so to speak. I guess I’m talking about walking in the Spirit. The Bible tells us if we walk in the Spirit we won’t carry out the desires of the flesh. The flesh and the spirit are at constant war with one another.
Here’s a bombshell. I don’t have to “try” and be righteous because I already am righteous based on my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. How can I who have died to sin continue to live in it? Believe me there’s something I know for sure. The only way to find peace with God is through faith. I didn’t dream this up. The Bible is clear about it.
This is why legalistic religious groups have members that are either full of pride or are continually frustrated. It’s because they are bound mentally by rules, regulations and ordinances that have no power over the flesh.
How are we saved? It’s by faith. How do we walk once saved? It’s by faith. How does a person who is saved by faith and walks by faith in the Spirit conduct themselves in regards to their behavior? That’s a no brainer isn’t it? We who have been saved by faith, live by faith and walk in the Spirit are focused on the Lord Jesus Christ and because of that we comport ourselves in a manner that is pleasing to God.
I think we are to be a conduit of God’s grace to others as our faith produced works provide a blessing to the recipients. They see our good works, the result of our faith and Spirit walk and give glory to who? Yes, the glory goes to God for the transformation that has occurred in our lives.
We live for God. LDS Mormons live for themselves and their goal of becoming a god. Motivation is everything and being oriented towards one self takes our eyes off of God and steals the glory that rightly belongs to Him, not to us.
Think about this for a moment. There are what, 15 million people on the rolls of the LDS church? Estimates tell us that about a third, 5 million are active. How many, what percent of this number, are what we would call “temple” Mormons? Maybe a million, give or take. How many of those who are active temple Mormons have participated in the ritual and been identified as having done enough to merit becoming gods?
I would venture to guess that the number is miniscule. So the system that is suppose to produce gods is probably not identifying many people who are worthy to become gods. Not only is the LDS system a false religious system, but it is one that basically robs from people a real relationship with the living god and robs them of their time, money and effort in pursuing something that will never pay off.
I say come to Jesus in faith, know the Living God and in doing so let your good works produced by that faith have a real and lasting effect.
So the LDS church obviously knows who has done enough to become a god. We know this because there are people who have participated in a ceremony/rite that deems them “worthy”. Now I understand that this info is kept way under the radar screen and is not published in the Ensign under “Notices”. Wouldn’t you think it would be a big deal and merit a picture and a story of the couple, their devotion to the LDS church, what they had done to earn this designation and perhaps advice to others on how to achieve this status?
I’m afraid that most members of the LDS sect aren’t told whether or not they are cutting it in the system. It could however, be done when they have their meeting with the bishop to secure their temple recommend. With where technology is today, it would be pretty easy to track a person’s progress towards becoming a deity.
But that’s not the LDS game. The rules of the game are to keep people anxious about their status and get them to keep plugging away for the LDS church. What would happen if say a half-a-million people suddenly were deemed worthy of becoming a god and couldn’t get the designation taken away from them?
Fact of the matter is that it’s all a sham, a con, a flim flam and a big pull the wool over their eyes scheme. Not one member of the LDS church has become or will ever become a god.
There is a better way. The apostle John told those he was writing to that the purpose of his message was so that “they would know they have eternal life”. Anyone who comes to Christ in faith can have this same assurance.
” There is a better way ” Amen !
The “way” sinners can receive pardon and the gift of eternal life is by coming personally to
Jesus , He’s the door , the Way to receive eternal life and live in God’s house above –Jn 14:1-6.
It’s through His work , His righteousness , that sinners can stand clean before God and enter
His home . Mormons are striving to become ” worthy ” by striving to become worthy enough
with rule/law keeping to enter a man made temple that has been referred to as the ” gate to
heaven ” since doing rituals in it are required for receiving eternal life .
But the teachings of Jesus’ apostles contained no such “way” to God’s presence in heaven
because access to His house and eternal life with Him is through only one door — Jesus
[ Jn 10:9 ] . Jesus alone is a sinners ” temple recommend ” to enter God’s true house above .
Like other latter days false prophets , Mormon leaders have piled on rules and laws they have
created onto the true gospel of salvation ( Rom 1:16) , thus offering only a imitation gospel
or as Paul stated , ” another gospel ” Gal 1:8 . Mormon leaders have ran way past the simple
dynamic gospel of salvation that Jesus’ apostles preached in their travels . Mormon leaders
claim to offer Jesus’ gospel ” restored ” , but it’s not , rather it’s His gospel replaced .
Mormonism is not the answer , there is a better way .
Some excerpts from former Mormon Andy Poland who found pardon and a new life in Jesus :
” The next part of my transformation occurred when the scriptures were explained to me by
christians at the Thursday night former Mormon support group at Concerned Christians .
At last , I began to understand the Bible’s meaning and how it applied to me . One verse shared
during our conversation stood out to me ( 1 Jn 5:12-13 ) Those words penetrated my heart .
Suddenly I knew that if I believed n Jesus , I had eternal life starting right now . At that moment
of awareness , I passed from death unto life ( see John 5:24 ) .
What does this new life look like ? The only way to answer that question is to show what I lost
and what I gained from my new relationship with Jesus . I gave up three things when I
shifted my trust to Jesus . The first was my sin; I could no longer carry the burden . The
second was my trust in my personal righteousness . My trust in Christ’s righteousness
required that I surrender any and all trust in personal righteousness ( see Rom 10:1-4 ;
Phil 3:9 ) . The third thing that I surrendered was personal glory . I learned that my goal of
reaching godhood only belonged to God Himself .
I gain several things from my new relationship with Jesus . The first was certain peace and
security in my salvation I knew I was going to heaven and could not lose that hope .
( see 1 Cor.3: 14-15; Phil 1:6 ; John 10:28 ) . God also gave me power to keep His
commandments and spiritual gifts to accomplish His tasks . I also found a deep appreciation
and love for God ( see Lk. 7:36-50 ) . Unquestionably the smallest things I gained from God
were the best . I found that my fear of punishment was gone and replaced with an ability to
take pleasure in life . My constant fear and obsession with my daily sins had robbed me
before of the ability to enjoy life . I was so consumed with trying to figure out how to be
perfect that I no time to smell the roses on the path of life . My new relationship with Jesus
freed me to be happy in the smallest moments of the day . ”
[ Concerned Christians newsletter vol 2 . no. 3 2010 ]
Well Mike……………………
Looks like a good place to post this link on Andy Poland giving his testimony. So I muted the volume on the Packers preseason game and am watching (the video).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBda3vWOBsU
Aaron posted this from the Manti training a while back. It’s right in my wheel house because it really highlights how folks can be deceived from what they think they “hear” supernaturally.
Falcon,
thanks for locating his testimony . Mormons are much more prone to spiritual deception
because they’ve been taught to trust their feelings to much .
Better for them to start with the apostle John’s counsel in 1 Jn 4:1 . This test also applies to any
latter days prophet who introduces a teaching related to salvation that Jesus’ true apostles
never taught , if they do then that is a red flag — Matt 24:11 .
Their has been some metion of Faith vs Works. So I’m simply posting some verses that people either dont know they exist, or simply forget to mention them.
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Notice it says, Abraham was Justifed By Faith and by believing in God that was counted as righteousness. No works. Unless your Clyde who thinks believing is a work.
Also it says, if we dont work but simply believe that believe is counted as righteousness.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
It seems the gospel of Grace extends way back to before Abraham, so it’s not simply a new concept.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
4:22-25 sums it up, belief, not works means righteousness. and it’s for all of us to know, it’s not a super secret we can never know about.
I love the book of Romans.
Rick,
Good job! Here’s the problem. The LDS folks are really into Commandment keeping. They think that we Christians don’t think we have to keep the Commandments. We emphasize, as you know, walking by faith, in the Spirit, in the light. If we do this the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from our sins. If we sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, that is Jesus. Do we believe that since we are saved by faith we have license to sin? The Bible clearly says “NO!”. How are we who have died to sin, continue in it?
Mormons don’t understand the gospel revealed in God’s Holy Word. They are following a false gospel perpetrated by false prophets.
These LDS folks just can’t wrap their minds around justification by faith. Being born again by the Spirit of God. But then they don’t know who God is. They think they are going to be gods. Is it any wonder that Christianity is so foreign to them.
Anyway……….excellent post!
Rick,
The LDS folks probably have no idea what “imputed” means when it comes to salvation by faith and justification.
Jesus’ righteousness was imputed……..credited to our account. It’s a gift, salvation, received by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. God grants us a pardon because Jesus has paid the price for us. It’s too simple for Mormons to understand. It’s almost like when Jesus was explaining things to Nicodemus who came to see him at night. He could not grasp what Jesus was telling him about being born again by the Spirit.
The LDS folks are so full of legalism that they can’t see the beauty of what God has done for us who are willing to acknowledge Him, and place our trust in His Christ for salvation.
Maybe someone can explain Matthew 25:14-28 to me and how it relates to our relationship with our Master. I would be interested in hearing your interpretation of this chapter.
Cattyjane,
What do you think that passge is saying/teaching?
Catty,
you asked
Maybe someone can explain Matthew 25:14-28 to me
I ask.
I’ll give it a go. The wicked servant did not believe his master and lost his reward as a result. This is not difficult. He did not believe what he should have about his master.
In no case were the servants expected to work in return for favor. What the Master expected was that the servants believe a certain thing about him
quote:
But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
(Mat 25:26-27)
end quote:
Did you get that?? The wicked servant knew that the master expected a return on his investment but he failed to place the money he was intrusted with it in a place that would provide a return.
It is not working to place money in the bank.
When you earn interest it’s not you who is working it’s your (in this case the Master’s) money working for you.
peace
Cattyjane,
I know you are all about works and the old testament, but read again what I posted from Romans. Grace pre-dates the law, the Jews and works.
Cattyjane,
Maybe instead of telling you what I think this parable is telling us, it would be more productive to discuss what the proper principles of Biblical interpretation are. What someone could think when reading this is that it means that the wicked servant got sent to hell because his behavior didn’t measure up to the Master’s standard. So……………….
1.Remember that context rules. Consider each verse in light of the surrounding verses, the book in which it is found and finally the entire Word of God. Is this section consistent with the theme, purpose, and structure of the book in which it is found? Is it consistent with other Scripture about the same subject; is there a glaring difference? Consider the historic and cultural context of what is being said.
2. Always seek the full counsel of the Word of God. Never accept a teaching simply because someone has used on or two isolated verses to support it.
3. Scripture won’t contradict Scripture. Scripture is God breathed.
OK that’s three of the five as presented in the Inductive Study Bible which I would highly recommend. It’s a good system for Bible study.
Falcon,
So why does that same process not apply when you guys are talking about “law”? When the majority of the other scriptures in the Bible speak about the “law” being good for us (10 commandments: Not the law of sin and death which is sacrifice), you guys want to call it a curse.
Your right that we cant earn our way by good works alone to enter into the Kingdom. Certainly any Mormon works don’t do any good since they are from Freemason works and not anything that God commanded. If anything Mormon temple works have the opposite effect. But God did not command anything of us that would hurt us. That would make him an evil God. The law, his instructions on how we are to live, is good. They bring life to those who obey them 1 Timothy 1:8 . To go back to Romans 7:12-25 , he says right here that it is not the law that he is calling unspiritual but himself. He states that the law is good and it helped to guide him and show him where he falls short according to the standards that God lays before us. In verse 22 he states that he delights in Gods law. Maybe we should be delighting in Gods law as well and stop calling what God calls good a curse.
Let me ask a question, or two, or three……. Is the passage of Scripture under consideration here, about justification by faith? Is it about moral behavior and commandment keeping? It is about the perseverance in grace of those who come to Christ in faith?
What is the context of Matthew 24 and 25? What is the topic of discussion? The disciples had asked Jesus a question and He was answering it using analogies. So what was the question? Was it, “Master what must we do to be saved?”. Was the question, “Master if someone comes to you in faith and they aren’t steadfast in keeping the commandments will they lose their salvation?”
The question(s) were:
Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.
……………………..45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.
The context of Mathew 24 and 25 is end times prophesy.
Cattyjane,
like I said before, grace predates the law. Also in the gospel of John the religious leaders flat out asked Jesus, what works they must do. Jesus said their is only one work and that is to believe. If we must do works, then that would have been the best possible time for Jesus to tell us that and lay out the list of laws we must do.
Also, the the if on the cross was saved with out doing any works, and what if today a person gives their life to Jesus, maybe on death row, or they are dying in the hospital or they just pray and ask Jesus into there lives, then they somehow die, are killed or something. These people are saved despite the fact they did zero works.