The False Necessity of LDS Water Baptism

Guest Contributor

john-baptizes-christ-39544-galleryIn his February 2015 Ensign article entitled, “The Gate Called Baptism” (45-47), Elder Devn Cornish of the Second Quorum of the Seventy said that “…baptism, a holy sign of a covenant between God and His children, is required for our salvation” (45). Christians would say that baptism is not essential for salvation, but according to the LDS tradition, water baptism by immersion is a must for members eight years old and older (D&C 68:27).

According to LDS Article of Faith #4, part of the official Mormon canon:

“We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Baptism is so important to LDS members because, as Elder Cornish quotes the Guide to the Scriptures, “Baptism by immersion in water by one having authority is the introductory ordinance of the gospel and is necessary to become a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (p. 46; See also, Guide to the Scriptures, “Baptism, Baptize“).

2 Nephi 31:17 says,

“Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.”

In light of this understanding, Mormons place a misinformed interpretation upon John 3:5, in which Jesus says to Nicodemus, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” In the LDS mind, this means we must be water baptized, and then baptized in the Holy Ghost. As Elder Cornish implies, “baptism is required for us to dwell in the presence of the Father and the Son…” and is the “…gate through which we enter the Lord’s Church and subsequently the celestial kingdom…” as well as being a beginning to the “ongoing process of becoming ‘perfect in Christ'” (“The Gate Called Baptism,” 46).

Speaking of the John 3:5 passage, the late LDS Apostle James E. Talmage wrote that the “words of the Savior, spoken while He ministered in the flesh, declare baptism to be essential to salvation… It is practically indisputable that the watery birth here referred to as essential to entrance into the kingdom is baptism” (Talmage, A Study of the Articles of Faith, 1977, 122, emphasis added).

Ron Rhodes, in his book Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Mormons, writes that “critical to a proper understanding of John 3:1-5 is verse 6: ‘That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit’” (p. 331). Flesh can only produce flesh, and spirit can only produce spirit, since the biblical law of reproduction is “after its own kind” (see Genesis 1:11, 24-25). Since we must be born again, we realize that it is God who gives eternal life to him who believes in Christ (Titus 3:5). This is a spiritual rebirth, which comes by faith. Rhodes explains this even further, saying,

“Notice what Jesus said to Nicodemus: First He spoke about being ‘born of water and of the Spirit’ in John 3:5; then He explained what He meant in verse 6. It would seem that ‘born of water’ in verse 5 is parallel to ‘born of the flesh’ in verse 6, just as ‘born of… the Spirit’ and ‘born of the Spirit’ are parallel in verses 5 and 6. Jesus’ message, then, is that just as a person has had a physical birth, so also must a person have a spiritual birth if he wants to enter the kingdom of God.” (Rhodes, Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Mormons, 331-332)

In other words, James E. Talmage’s argument is flat-lined. Being born of water is not water baptism, it is a physical birth, which we all go through.

water-bubbles-and-lights-powerpoint-backgroundsLDS Apostle Orson F. Whitney stated that “There is no salvation without repentance, and no remission of sin without baptism” (Whitney, Baptism: The Birth of Water and the Spirit, 6). Yet what did Peter mean in Acts 2:38 when he said, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins…” (emphasis added)? Does this mean that we receive remission of sins via baptism? According to Mormonism, yes. According to a correct interpretation of the Bible, no. “Eis” is the New Testament Greek word for “for” in this case. Ron Rhodes points out that this word for is a “preposition that can indicate causality (‘in order to attain’) or a result (‘because of’)” (James Bjornstad, “At What Price Success? The Boston (Church of Christ) Movement,” Christian Research Journal, Winter 1993, reprint, Christian Research Institute, 4; quoted in Rhodes, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 328).

In Acts 2:38, “for” is used in the resultant sense, meaning that Acts 2:38 can be paraphrased “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ because of [or as a result of] the remission of sins.” Rhodes implies that this verse does not mean, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ in order to attain the remission of sins” (Ibid, 328). In other words, water baptism comes as a result (or because) of the fact that we have already received a remission of sins by our faith in Jesus Christ.

Mark 16:16 says, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned” (emphasis added). Notice the second part to the verse; if one does not believe, he is damned. If you believe but are not baptized, you are still saved; that is the clincher.

The Book of Mormon gives a chilling twist to the biblical passage in Mark 16:16. Third Nephi 11:34 reads, “And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned” (emphasis added). This means that if you believe but are not baptized, you have not experienced the introductory ordinance to enter into the celestial kingdom, because water baptism is necessary, according to LDS teaching.

LDS Apostle Rudger Clawson stated,

“One cannot get into the kingdom of God upon the principle of faith alone, or repentance alone, or receiving the Holy Ghost alone. He will have to be baptized, go down into the water, and come up out of the water, and have hands laid upon him for the gift of the Holy Ghost. That is the procedure that was followed by the apostles of Christ. That is the procedure of the Church today. It is the only way.” (Rudger Clawson, Conference Reports, October 1932, 9)

No, that is not the only way. Faith alone in Jesus Christ is the only way. Paul simply and beautifully stated in Acts 16:31, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved” (see John 5:24; 11:25; 12:46; and 20:31). Elder Devn Cornish quotes Moroni 8:25 on page 46 of his article by saying, “And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins” (emphasis added).

No, fulfilling the commandments does not bring a remission of sins. If that was possible, then Christ died in vain. What would we have needed him to die on the cross for? He died for us so that our sins may be forgiven if we have faith in Him. It is impossible to fulfill all the commandments. Even trying is not good enough, according to LDS Prophet Spencer W. Kimball. Kimball stated: “To ‘try’ is weak. To ‘do the best I can’ is not strong. We must always do better than we can.” (Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, 165) Since our best is never good enough, and trying is never good enough, how can the inconsistent Mormon god whom the Book of Mormon claims “giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them” (1 Nephi 3:7) expect His people to fulfill ALL the commandments in order to bring forth His forgiveness?

Faith alone in God alone, not baptism, is essential for salvation. And nothing else. It’s really, really that simple.

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34 Responses to The False Necessity of LDS Water Baptism

  1. falcon says:

    Is the LDS religion a sacramental religion?
    I won’t name the particular denomination except to say it’s in the family of Lutheranism. I sat in a few funerals of relatives who had belonged to this group and heard how the minister had confidence the deceased was in heaven. It was that they had been baptized, confirmed and on through the list of ordinances. The first time I heard it I thought the minister had mis-spoke. But nope there it was again and again. I, who was raised Catholic, could see how someone might get this notion. But I did find myself wanting to raise my had and say, “Excuse me. What role does faith have in this?”
    I should probably stay away from this topic but what does it mean to be Spirit baptized? I’ll let that go.
    I remember from my catechism classes in Catholic school that we were taught that there are three possibilities when it came to baptism. They are baptism by water, blood and desire. Water is the conventional approach, blood is that of a martyr who believes but was never water baptized and desire is someone who believes in Christ for salvation but has not been baptized by water.
    The Catholic church is very sacrament based and even they identify other possibilities when it comes to baptism. The bottom line is that we are saved when God extends His grace to us and we accept his offer of eternal life through Jesus on the basis of faith. There is nothing to be added to it.

  2. Jim Stiles says:

    All of the Lutheran denominations in the United States follow the Book of Concord, which does state that baptism is necessary for salvation. When a child is born in poor health, the minister (or a lay person, if a clergy is not available) will immediately baptize the child. Confirmation does require that the confirmed person publicly profess the true faith in Christ.

    Reformed Christians, such as myself, do not place as much importance on baptism. Infants born in poor health are not immediately baptized. Infants born to at least one Christian parent are presumed to belong to the covenant of grace along with the believing parent(s) and are not baptized until the next church service. Chapter 28 of the Westminster Confession of Faith is an excellent summary of the Reformed view of baptism.

    CHAPTER 28
    Of Baptism

    1. Baptism is a sacrament of the new testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible church; but also, to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in newness of life. Which sacrament is, by Christ’s own appointment, to be continued in his church until the end of the world.

    2. The outward element to be used in this sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the gospel, lawfully called thereunto.

    3. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but baptism is rightly administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person.

    4. Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto Christ, but also the infants of one, or both, believing parents, are to be baptized.

    5. Although it be a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance, yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it; or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.

    6. The efficacy of baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered; yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God’s own will, in his appointed time.

    7. The sacrament of baptism is but once to be administered unto any person.

  3. Jim Stiles says:

    The Augsburg Confession (part of the Lutheran Book of Concord) has the following (translated from German) text (from Wikisource):

    Article IX: Of Baptism.

    Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God’s grace.

    They condemn the Anabaptists, who reject the baptism of children, and say that children are saved without Baptism.

    Modern English and American Baptists view Baptism like the Anabaptists whose view is rejected by this article.

  4. Jim Stiles says:

    I was raised in the LDS Church and was baptized by the LDS Church when I was 8 years old. After I became a Christian when I was in college, I was baptized again in a manner permitted by the 28th Chapter of the Westminster Confession of Faith by an ordained minister of the Church of Christ (Campbellite) denomination. When I joined an Orthodox Presbyterian Church, I did not need to be baptized again.

    Is the LDS ordinance of baptism acceptable to the 28th Chapter of the WCF?

    While the LDS baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the LDS is not a Trinitarian denomination and cannot be considered a Christian church. Furthermore, the LDS priesthood is a spurious invention of man and the holder of said priesthood cannot be considered to be a lawfully ordained minister of the gospel. So, if I was a ruling elder, I would not accept an LDS baptism as being a Christian baptism.

  5. historybuff says:

    In the world of LDS ordinances, baptism is far from adequate to grant the worthy LDS entrance into the top glory of the Celestial Kingdom, which is the Mormon idea of heaven. After baptism, the devout Mormon needs to go through the temple and receive his or her temple covenants, then be married for time and eternity in the temple.

    Mormons are so adamant about this that they have established a way for all of these ordinances to be performed for their dead relatives and others, also in the temples. All of these vicarious ordinances for the dead are based on one brief, obscure reference in the Bible, yet they represent a major part of Mormon theology and worship. Ironically, temple work for the dead, which has spawned the Mormon Church’s hugely extensive genealogy programs, is nowhere mentioned in the Book of Mormon, which is claimed to contain “the fullness of the everlasting gospel.”

    And one other intriguing question about the Mormons’ use of 1 Corinthians 15:29 to usher in a host of temple rituals for the dead: If Paul was alluding to the Christians’ practice of baptism for the dead, why did he refer to those practicing the rite as “they” instead of “we”? It’s entirely possible, and even probable, that Paul was referring to the rites of a non-Christian sect of the day, especially in view of the fact that baptism for the dead is nowhere else mentioned in the Bible or the Book of Mormon.

  6. Rick B says:

    The Bible is clear that Jesus never baptized anyone, and the Apostle Paul said he did not go to baptize any one and that he cannot remember who or how many he did. So that alone should tell people the LDS are wrong. If Jesus did not Baptize anyone and it is required for salvation, then Jesus is seriously wrong in leading people to believe you must be and he never did. same with Paul.

  7. historybuff says:

    Rick B —

    Sounds entirely reasonable. So how would you respond to people who note that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist? What was Jesus’ reason for doing that?

  8. falcon says:

    Why was Jesus baptized? Well what was the purpose of John’s baptism. It was about repentance and the forgiveness of sin. Since Jesus is God he had nothing to repent for or ask forgiveness. So what’s the deal?
    Well Jesus was starting His public ministry. John was there to proclaim the coming of the Lord. When Jesus came up out of the water John reported seeing the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove descending on Jesus. I think there was also some “thunder” that some thought was a voice. Jesus went out into the desert to fast and pray and be tempted by the devil.
    “Jesus’ baptism also represented the willing identification of the sinless Son of God with the sinful people He came to save. That was the first act of His ministry, the first step in the redemptive plan that He came to fulfill. He who had no sin took His place among those who had no righteousness.”
    That sounds reasonable.

  9. historybuff says:

    Falcon —

    Okay, so Jesus’ baptism was less of an ordinance, and certainly not a necessary ordinance, and more of a greeting or introduction? In view of the fact Jesus was without sin and needed no baptism (and even John the Baptist suggested that), was Jesus’ baptism more symbolic than necessary?

  10. Mike R says:

    Adam, great article , thanks .

    To know if we can trust Mormon leaders to be reliable guides in interpreting the scriptures or in what they want us to believe is truth from God we need to hear , it is vital that we look at what they have taught ever since they first appeared on the scene making their claim of authority . This type of evaluation will greatly aid anyone who is considering trusting these men to be who they claim to be .

    Mormon leaders claim that the truths of Jesus’ gospel were altered/ changed soon after the deaths of His apostles . This resulted in a complete apostasy of His church and from His gospel — 1700 years later this problem was rectified by a Mormon prophet :
    ” Through Joseph Smith , the founding prophet called of God in this modern dispensation , new revelation has come forth from God that has restored the original doctrines and ordinances which belong to the Church of Jesus Christ.” [ Mormon apostle Delbert Stapley , Ensign May 1977 ].

    Another Mormon apostle stressed how exclusive Mormonism is :
    ” The only persons among all nations , kindreds , tongues , and peoples who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter Day Saints . Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830 , there have no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances .” [ Orson Pratt , The Seer, p 255 ] .

    So Mormon leaders claim to know what a gospel ordinance is and to be the only source to administer them approved by God . Orson Pratt even taught that anyone who is baptized by a non Mormon religious leader makes a mockery before God , and it’s highly sinful in His sight .

    So what about gospel ordinances ? Are Mormon leaders trustworthy guides in learning about such things , baptism being the biggest example ? Mormons tell us that their prophet is the source for
    “pure unpolluted guidance ” [ Oct 1998 General Conf. ” Come Listen to a Prophet’s Voice” ] in
    relation to gospel preaching .
    It’s important to know what Mormon leaders like Brigham Young taught about what they called ” the Christian world ” of their time : it was in a state of apostasy thus all those people were deceived ,
    short changed , by their leaders who were purveyors of unstable teachings which misled their followers :
    ” …. hence the professing Christian world are like a ship upon a boisterous ocean without a rudder , compass , or pilot , and are tossed hither and thither by every wind of doctrine .” [ J.of D . v 10 p.265 ] . Mormon leaders claimed to be the answer for this problem because they were being exclusively supervised by Jesus to teach and preach the truth about gospel doctrines and ordinances .

    So were Mormon leaders the go to source for correct understanding of ” gospel ordinances ” , the stable source for teachings especially about water baptisms ? No . Mormon leaders like Brigham Young failed as a reliable guide , succumbing to teaching/condoning false doctrine about the issue of water baptisms , he succumbed to mixing man made teachings into Jesus’ gospel . Since His present day colleagues have not admitted this error they also should be dismissed as authorities over one’s
    life . True , they have not taught some of the same doctrines which their predessors did , but that only reveals another problem within Mormonism — Eph 4:14 .

    Some of the doctrines concerning water baptism Mormon leaders like Brigham Young believed and taught as ” gospel ordinances ” :
    – Re-baptism — baptism again for the remission of sins or as a sign of rededication was a common ordinance for many years . Not so anymore .
    – Baptism for health . Discontinued during the administration of Joseph F. Smith ( 1901-1918 ) .
    – re baptsim was once required before first time temple attendees could receive their endowments.
    ( no longer a necessary requirement )

    Given these serious changes , it would be unwise for anyone to accept what Mormon authorities teach about water baptism today since they have a track record of introducing man made teachings concerning it . But the Bible is God’s word , and it is the go to source to learn about water baptism , not from Mormon authorities .
    May the Mormon people dismiss their prophets because Mormonism is not the answer .
    We pray for them to ask God for help in doing this .

  11. falcon says:

    Yea I’d probably say that Jesus’ baptism was symbolic in nature. I’d say our baptism is symbolic in nature. It’s like Noah and the Flood for us in that the earth was cleansed by water, we are identifying with Christ and the forgiveness of our sins through faith.
    Baptism is an outward sign of an inward grace. As far as Jesus being introduced to John, I think they must have known each other in that they were cousins. Mary, Jesus mother, was the cousin of Elizabeth, John’s mother.
    Do you think John was ever baptized?

  12. Mike R says:

    Mormon leaders have claimed that they have the very same gospel that Jesus’ apostles preached , the very same church established by Jesus through His apostles , and the very same authority from God .
    These are bold claims .
    They’re actually something we should expect latter days false prophets to say in order to gain peoples attention and convince them to accept their teachings , and baptism is one of those .

    But can we trust these latter days prophets ? Jesus said to ” beware ” of such men , so caution is recommended in order to not be misled by good counterfeits .

    Thankfully ministries like MRM exist to provide people with their evaluation of Mormonism .
    People can’t be to safe these days . Being fooled by prophets / messengers who are not sent by God is a real danger . Decent people can be fooled and the Mormon people are such people .

  13. falcon says:

    …………….and it’s the perfect set-up. Listen to us, these prophets and other LDS leaders say. The last thing they want people to do is to actually check-out their claims. Way too many LDS sect members leave once they get their hands on the truth regarding the early history of the Christian faith and the early history of Mormonism. Add to this a rigorous study of the history of the NT and Mormonism falls totally apart.

  14. Mike R says:

    falcon, you’re right .
    Mormonism has been successful in gaining new converts largely because of the way they present their claims , that followed by an appeal to a person’s emotions usually results in gaining new members .
    Good advertising goes a long way in getting potential coverts attention , and when Mormons claim that their church is the original christian church re-established in 1830 after 1700 years of being extinct , then that is a real attention grabber .

    A tract published by the Mormon church designed to give to the public , after proudly stating Mormonism’s authority to be considered the restored church and gospel of Jesus , states :
    ” Under that authority the Church has been built up after the original pattern and with the same spirit, ordinances, gifts, and blessings .”

    This type of claim is repeated over and over . A couple more examples:
    ” The restored gospel is identical in all respects to the gospel taught by the Savior and His apostles.”
    [ Elder Alma Stone, April 1968 General Conf . ” The Gospel Restored” ]

    ” It is a glorious truth and blessing to enjoy membership in the church , the one true church of the Lord Jesus Christ restored to the earth in exactly the same form as it existed when Christ established it first twenty centuries ago.” [ Joesph Wirthlin , Conf report Oct. 1953 ].

    At the public opening of the Preston England Mormon temple in 1998 Mormons provided the public with a introductory media pact , and the following statement was found therein :
    ” The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a Christian denomination wholly committed to the New Testament account of the birth, life, crucifixion , and resurrection of Jesus Christ , the Son of God and Savior of mankind .” [ article ” The Mormon Matrix ” , Reachout Trust ministry ] .

    These are the types of claims that too many sincere people take at face value and don’t make enough time available in their busy lives to look a little deeper into the teachings of Mormonism and compare them with what the Bible says .

    A few years ago a read a news article on Yahoo news which I copied . It dealt with the FDA alerting health officials about a counterfeit cancer drug .
    ” The FDA announced on Tuesday that a counterfeit version of the drug Avastin has made it’s way into the U.S. market . ”
    Doctors were told to check their supply of this drug and make sure it was manufactured by the maker of the real Avastin maker . The makers of the real drug ” tested the suspected counterfeit version of the drug and found it to be not merely REPACKAGED but FRAUDULENT . Some 19 different potential buyers have been identified . The FDA warned all of them individually about the counterfeit drug …”

    This reminded me of how latter days false prophets fool people into following them . Their claims sound so reasonable and unless theses claims are tested the teachings of these prophets won’t be seen for what they are — a counterfeit gospel REPACKAGED to look like the real one , the one Jesus’ apostles and is recorded in the New Testament .

    Mormon leaders can’t be trusted to teach the truth about the gospel ordinance of water baptism correctly . They only offer a good counterfeit .
    Adam’s article is one example of that fact .

  15. Mike R says:

    I did’nt give the reference for the first quote I used above . It comes from :
    ” What The Mormons Believe ” , by Pres. Charles W. Penrose , p. 6

  16. falcon says:

    Well here’s my favorite quote:
    “The restored gospel is identical in all respects to the gospel taught by the Savior and His apostles.”
    What a joke! I would say to this, then please prove what you say is true. I can guarantee that what we’d get is the old testimony. A good question would be, “Then why has the LDS church changed the temple ordinances?”
    This is a claim that just puts me over the edge.

  17. Mike R says:


    Mormons have honed their message to appeal primarily to people who have some degree of Christian church background . Hence Mormon authorities will print tracts , brochures , worded so that it will be most effective in convincing these people that Mormonism is the original christian re established after a long long absence on the earth . So many of these tracts, and brochures , public interviews etc usually have one thing in common — they will use half truths to sell Mormonism .

    Mormons tell those they are proselytizing that they will baptize using the words found in Matt 28:19 ( or D&C 20:73 ) therefore that will help convince them that Mormon authorities have been truly sent by Jesus to teach and baptize .
    That is a half truth , and no doubt it has fooled people .

  18. falcon says:

    I do get frustrated with this claim of Joseph Smith that he restored original Christianity. Now remember, he did this through “revelation”. What a total joke such a claim is.
    Mormons really have no excuse for their ignorance about what the first century Christian Church taught, believed and practiced. I don’t know what God holds people responsible for in terms of their ignorance. Does He excuse them when they say they were deceived?
    When it comes to baptism, it’s folded into the false restored gospel. Like all things Mormon, the LDS church puts their particular spin on the rite.

  19. Mike R says:

    Mormon leaders are good salesmen . Their claim of a complete apostasy of Jesus’ church and from His gospel of salvation ( Rom 1:16) , is so ridiculous that only clever salesmen could convince decent people to accept it and then think they must accept the “restored gospel ” these salesmen offer .

    Mormon leaders have exhibited a pattern in their gospel preaching , and it reveals them to be unreliable as guides .
    They’ve created doctrines and ordinances out of whole cloth , taught them for many years as part of their gospel message , and then quietly dumped them . They did this with teachings concerning water baptism , for one example .
    Why would anyone accept them today as God’s mouthpiece when tomorrow they could create yet another man made doctrine and preach it from the pulpit ?

    The Mormon people can be free from latter days imitation prophets ( Matt 24 ) by asking God for the strength to walk away from them . It won’t be easy but gaining spiritual freedom is worth it .

  20. Rhythm Of The Tides says:

    I always have a chuckle over the old joke about the thief on the Cross next to Christ being saved there and then for believing in him with the punchline being, the last thing he stole was his salvation.

    Guys can you pray for my friend tomorrow who I will be talking to tomorrow about why I am leaving the church… I wish to share Christ so please keep me and of course my friend in your prayers… It’ll probably be my last conversation before the principalities rear their heads and interfere with my friendship.

    Thanks people.

  21. Mike R says:


    My wife and I will definitely be praying for you , and that God will open the eyes of your friend to understand what you share with him/her .

  22. falcon says:

    Ditto on my end here. Sometimes the things said to Mormons don’t bubble to the surface for months or years.

  23. Clyde6070 says:

    it is very strange that you do not want to follow Jesus’ example ie baptism. I believe it is necessary for a fresh start in a persons life.

  24. Mike R says:


    You’re not listening …. again .
    We do indeed follow Jesus’ example by being baptized , but water baptism is not a requirement that one must do in order to receive eternal life . Baptism is a very important ordinance for Christ’s Body, the church , to believe in and teach .

    You said , ” I believe it is necessary for a fresh start in a persons life .” A ” fresh start ” in life ?
    It’s much more than that .

    Clyde, Mormonism is not the answer . You don’t need it to be accepted by God and experience complete forgiveness of sins and a right relationship with Him — Jn 14:6 ; Heb 7:25

  25. Rick B says:

    The Bible tells us Jesus never baptized any body. So if thats the case then that tells me we are not required to be baptized to be saved.

    then when Paul was in Jail, the jailer said to Paul, sirs, what MUST I DO to be saved? Paul said, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. Paul never said, Be baptized.

    Then it was your prophet JS that said, a man CANNOT BE SAVED in ignorance.

    So you either never read the Bible and are ignorant and are not saved, or you read the Bible and know it teaches what I said, and then that means your purposely leaving information out and leading people to believe things that are not true, and that makes you a liar and a deceiver and then that makes you a follower of your father the devil as Jesus said. So either way your in trouble.

  26. falcon says:

    I agree that you don’t seem to be listening or don’t process what has been written here. After all this time, you still miss the point. We are saved not by a ritual or rite or sacrament. We are saved by faith, trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, for the forgiveness of our sins.
    Actually I was baptized twice, once as an infant and again as an adult believer. My adult baptism showed my identification with Jesus.
    clyde I continue to hope that you will one day understand that the restored gospel you are following will not result in eternal life.

  27. Rick B says:

    If i say i was baptized yet reject the lds gospel, then according to lds I cannot be saved. Yet I’m baptized. That proves your wrong.

    Also Jesus said, many will say to me, lord, lord did we not cast out demons in your name, and do good works in your name. Jesus says depart from me you workers of evil for I never knew you. Jesus never said, depart from me for you were never baptized.

  28. MJP says:

    Hey Clyde, did my fresh start come when I was baptized or when I accepted Christ in my life?

  29. historybuff says:

    Let us remember that Mormons aren’t the only professed Christians who believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. Many of the Church of Christ congregations believe it, and so do the Catholics. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, for example, states: “The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.” (CCC 1257).

    That’s a lot of Christians.

  30. Ralph says:

    The OP states “Mark 16:16 says, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned” (emphasis added). Notice the second part to the verse; if one does not believe, he is damned. If you believe but are not baptized, you are still saved; that is the clincher.

    This is false. The verse states – Believes AND is baptised; NOT – Believes AND is baptised OR not. The word ‘AND’ means both have to be done, not one or the other. Simple Boolean logic.

    The reason it does not state ‘believeth not and not baptised shall be damned’, is because without belief it does not matter if you are baptised or not – but in most cases if one does not believe then one would not get baptised anyway. So belief comes first and foremost and from that belief comes baptism; which the LDS church teaches (see article of faith 4, and many other references in the BoM and D&C).

    But since the last half of Mark 16 is an inclusion into the Bible (look it up if you don’t believe me) then this argument is a moot point as this verse should not really be in the Bible. Show that to anyone who tries to use those verses and you have demolished their argument in one sweep.


    Your argument that because Jesus didn’t baptise anyone means that it isn’t important is flawed. Jesus taught there were sowers and reapers. Jesus was a sower – His ministry was short so He taught the people and allowed the Spirit to convert them. He left the reaping (ie the baptising and subsequent teaching) to the others who would live on after His ascension to heaven. All of His apostles both taught and baptised, as you pointed out with Paul. He didn’t keep a score card as to how many he baptised because that was not important, which is what he means in the verses you cite about him and his baptising. Unfortunately we see in the LDS church people keeping score of how many they have baptised and many people measure a mission by that standard – again, according to the Bible and the verses you quote about Paul, this is wrong.

    If you look at Acts 2:37-40, after the people had a spiritual confirmation of the truth that Peter was teaching they asked him what should they do. He said (Acts 2:38) ‘Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.‘ So according to Peter what needs to be done after gaining a belief in Jesus? Repent and then be baptised before finally gaining the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    When Saul/Paul was converted, what happened (Acts 22)? He lost his sight and went to Ananias, then Ananias advised Saul to (Acts 22:16) ‘And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.‘ So again after conversion/faith comes baptism in the Bible.


    Your fresh start started when you accepted Jesus, but did you continue to the finish of the process? Romans 6:1-6 teaches that baptism is an essential part of renewing the old man. See especially vv4-6 where it states that we are buried with Him when baptised and then are in the ‘likeness of His resurrection’ when we come out of the water. So without baptism we cannot be in the ‘likeness of His resurrection’ and become a full new man. Faith and conversion is the first step, but baptism finalises the conversion process.

  31. Rick B says:

    Ralph, baptism does not save us. But thats why lds teach you cannot be saved on your death bed, or on feath row, because they cannot be baptised.

    History buff, you said lds are not the only christians to baptise. Lds are not christian. You should not call them that since they have anothet gospel that condems them as Paul taught.

  32. Rick B says:

    Ralph, you said Jesus was a sower and others were reapers, that was why He did not baptise.
    Man I really feel sorry for you when you die and hear, I never knew you. You really are good at defending a lie.

    Jesus was God, Not a sower, and if baptism is really required to be saved, then not only does Jesus not claim that at all, but he set a serious bad example by not doing it. Then the thief on the cross was not baptised, what a bummer for that guy.

    Now as far as Paul goes, it’s not a matter of keeping score, The Jailer asked Paul, What must I do to be saved.

    Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    Paul never mentions being baptised. Paul simply says, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Again, if paul is a sower as you claim, he’s doing a terrible job, because he never mentions getting baptised.

    Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). it says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,

    1. Church attendance
    2. Payment of tithes and offerings
    3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
    4. Moral cleanliness.
    5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
    6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.

    In Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. we are not repentant if we don’t sustain the authorities of the church and don’t love the lord and our fellow man.

    Add to that also pg 241 Eternal marriage is ESSENTIAL FOR EXALTATION. Our exaltation depends on marriage. Then over on pg 242 it says “and in order to obtain the highest, a man MUST ENTER INTO THIS ORDER OF THE PRIESTHOOD [MEANING THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT OF MARRIAGE];” “and if he does not, he cannot obtain it” (D and C 131:1-3)

    Boy, I think I would rather follow Paul’s simple teaching of, believe on the Lord Jesus, Not the LDS view of You must do all this first. I have pointed out to people before also, what if you convert to Mormonism, then die or get killed before doing all this. Plus in order to enter the temple, you must first spend one year simply being an LDS member, then after one year you can try to enter the temple.

    Some of us will not have the year plus we need, so can you be sure your even saved? I know for a fact I am saved, what about you? I want to add also that D and C 131:6 teaches: It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance. Are you ignorant of these thing?

  33. Rick B says:

    I figured if I posted to much Ralp would avoid it, as Mormons have openly admitted to doing when Grindael posted stuff, but here are verses that never mention Baptism, but just the Blood of of Jesus or believing on Jesus.

    1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

    John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

    Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

    1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Those verses from the Word of God show, Baptism does not remove our Sin, only the Blood of Jesus Christ can take away our sin.

    Brigham young said,

    Some of our old traditions teach us that a man guilty of atrocious and murderous acts may savingly repent when on the scaffold; and upon his execution will hear the expression, “Bless God! he has gone to heaven, to be crowned in glory, through the all-redeeming merits of Christ the Lord.” This is all nonsense. Such a character never will see heaven. Some will pray, “O that I had passed through the veil on the night of my conversion!” This proves the false ideas and vain notions entertained by the Christian world (DBY, 157).
    Baptism is an essential ordinance for our salvation.

    In order to be saved you must be baptized? The reason why this is a big deal is this, What about all the People who on their death bed confess Christ, according to the Bible they will be saved, Yet not according to Mormonism, because they were not baptized.

    If I were a Mormon Missionary, and I was Honest and up front in giving out the LDS gospel to a dying person, I would have to say, sorry I cannot preach the Gospel to you, or I have no good news to give you, because while the Bible says, Salvation comes by confession, you need to add the Mormon Gospel which teaches works, entering the temple and needing to be baptized first. Sadly your about to die and cannot do this. Where is the Love and grace in this godless religion?

    Lets look at what the Bible teaches.
    Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

    Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Brigham Young said
    Baptism is an essential ordinance for our salvation.

    If this is true, then why do we not read any accounts of Jesus or the Apostles ever once saying, In order to be saved, you must be baptized. Then in the Bible I read accounts of Jesus not baptizing, and the apostle Paul claiming Jesus did not send him to baptize.

    John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

    John 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,).

    1Cr 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

    1Cr 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

    1Cr 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

    1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

    1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    Act 16:27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

    Act 16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

    Act 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

    Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

    Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    I read in these verses, no mention of needing to be baptized to be saved.

    Let me end with this, Brigham Young and many other LDS teach in order to be saved, WE MUST OBEY ALL OF GODS LAW’S. If this is true, why are we told to be baptized to be saved when this is not taught as a law, But yet Brigham young, D and C and God supposedly gave the LDS law’s like Polygamy, D and C 132, or Adam God and Blood atonement, Blacks not allowed to hold the priesthood, Word of Wisdom, and things such as this, that Brigham Young very clearly stated, these are laws given to him by god himself and you will be damned for not obeying. Seems the LDS pick and choose what laws they will obey and what laws they will deny.

  34. Pingback: The False Necessity of LDS Water Baptism | Latter-Day Sense

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