[The following is the first in a 4-part series on the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, offered by Mormon Coffee guest contributor Andy Watson. All parts of the series will be posted in succession, following our regular schedule of new posts appearing each Monday and Thursday.]
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) proclaims that they are a church that embraces ongoing or continual revelation. This primarily means that they view the canon of Scripture as not being closed. Christianity affirms that the canon of Scripture is closed in that God has given His Word that encompasses all that is needed to be known for the salvation of humankind and reconciliation with a holy, triune God. God being triune/tri-unity is God’s highest revelation of Himself to fallen humanity. Mormonism rejects this highest revelation of God. God revealed in Scripture as triune/tri-unity is known in Christianity as the Trinity. How’s the Trinity defined?
Within the one Being that is God,
there are three distinct Persons who are
coequal, coeternal, coexistent, and co-substance:
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
What are the particular highlights and considerations of this doctrine?
- There is only one God.
- God is three Persons.
- Each Person is fully God in substance/nature/essence.
- All the Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are equal in all of their attributes. However, there are distinctions and differences in roles that are particular to each Person. A difference in role does not mean inferiority in nature or essence. The Father decrees all that will take place; the Son brings to pass all that the Father decrees; the Spirit brings all into conformity or compliance.
- The Trinity must be divinely revealed and not humanely constructed.
Who is this doctrine for and why is it important? I concur with Dr. James White’s points that were made in his book The Forgotten Trinity:
- This doctrine is one of the main pillars of Christianity
- The Trinity is for Bible-believing people. The eternality of God and His triune nature are doctrines for Christians.
- The miracle of salvation must take place for the Christian to love and accept the doctrine.
- Christians are compelled to accept this doctrine for the same reasons the early church fathers did: the Scriptures compel us and leave us no choice!
- After looking at the Trinitarians language of the New Testament, it’s easy to see why the early church formulated the doctrine. This truth couldn’t be denied.
- Mature Christians desire to know, understand, and love the Trinity.
- One must understand and accept the Trinity to know Christ.
- We have to worship God as He exists and not merely as we wish Him to be.
Is this doctrine understandable? Here are some thoughts on this matter:
- One would be in error to state that the Trinity is understandable and without mystery. However, mankind can understand the doctrine of the Trinity as to what the Bible teaches about the nature of God and three Persons that reveal the one Being/God.
- It is correct and wise in saying that to fully comprehend the Being of God is beyond comprehension. There are some things about God that He has reserved only to be known within His own counsel. These are the secret things; other things He has chosen to reveal to humankind (Deut 29:29).
- Christians affirm this doctrine because God has revealed that this is what He is like. Our finite minds cannot grasp the infinite. The fullness of the Trinity is incomprehensible. This is what makes God who is He is: infinite; this makes human beings who they are: finite.
Mormonism joins the ranks with many non-Christian sects in its denial of the Trinity:
While respecting the divergent views of other people of faith, Church leaders want to be clear about the beliefs that help define Latter-day Saints…Among the most important differences with other Christian churches are those concerning the nature of God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. (Mormon Newsroom, Core Beliefs)
The Trinity of traditional Christianity is referred to as the Godhead by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. While the same terms are used by Latter-day Saints and other Christians for the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost), the Latter-day Saints understanding of the three members of the Godhead is significantly different from that of traditional Christianity. (Mormon Newsroom, The Godhead)
It’s admirable that the LDS Church made that clarification, because this is what separates Mormonism from Christianity. Mormons are constantly stating to the Christian community, “We are Christians just like you.” Why and how so? They have excluded themselves by their own admission in their rejection of the Trinity doctrine. Mormons blur the horizon by applying to themselves the “Christian” label. However, this doesn’t nullify the fact that Mormonism has diverted sharply and greatly from “…the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints” (Jude 3). What are the talking points and statements by the LDS Church regarding the Trinity that are put forth by LDS General Authorities and repeated verbatim by LDS Church members?
- The word Trinity isn’t in the Bible along with the doctrine.
- The Trinity doctrine came out of the Council of Nicea.
- The Trinity doctrine is the product of the councils of men and was not believed by the early Christians including the apostles, church fathers, and those that followed them prior to the Council of Nicea.
First, the Council of Nicea didn’t formulate the doctrine known today as the Trinity. The Council of Nicea was called to affirm the deity of Jesus Christ – not to affirm or formulate the Trinity doctrine – in light of the Arian heresy instigated by Arius, a church presbyter, who was quickly condemned as a heretic.
Second, it’s true that the word Trinity isn’t in the Bible. Nevertheless, the word Trinity (tri-unity) was coined because it accurately describes and names what is revealed in Scripture when the doctrine is defined. There are numerous words and doctrines that are exclusive to Mormonism that cannot be found in the Bible. These would include words such as quorum, endowment, Kolob, and many others. Doctrinal terms would be celestial marriage, exaltation, eternal progression, the preexistence of human spirits and their passing through the veil of forgetfulness, etc. The difference between these LDS words and doctrines and the Christian word Trinity and the doctrine as it is defined, is that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity can be found in the Bible while the LDS words and doctrines (as Mormons define them) cannot. Of course, our Mormon friends will point to further or ongoing revelation outside of the Bible in defense. However, if these LDS doctrines were true, then God would have revealed them to His people in the Bible. God did not withhold from His people issues regarding their salvation until 1830 when the Mormon Church came into existence.
Third, the LDS Church looks unfavorably at the ecumenical councils of the Christian church that took place so long ago as merely “the councils of men.” I have always found this puzzling. What do they call General Conference held twice a year in which they gather to get counsel and direction from their General Authorities? I see these as the councils of men especially when their prophet never puts forth any new revelation coming from the god Mormons pray to who resides near Kolob.
In conclusion, there is a sharp distinction between Christianity and Mormonism just on the doctrine of the Trinity alone not to mention many others. It is for this reason and others that Mormonism will continue to remain outside the Christian community of faith. The next installment in this series will examine the origins of the word Trinity and the teachings that were passed down to Christians, coming from the apostles to the early church fathers.
For Shem:
This is about the last thing I wanted to get into as I really don’t want to take us off topic.
See page 250-241 of D. Michael Quinn’s excellent book “The Mormon Hierarchy : Extensions of Power” for even more details and references.
There are several references to the Thomas Lewis castration.
Pages 284-286 of John D. Lee’s Confession in MORMONISM UNVEILED, or THE LIFE AND CONFESSIONS of the Late Mormon Bishop JOHN D. LEE contain a very good account of the crime.
Pages 250-251, The Mormon Hierarchy, Extensions of Power by D. Michael Quinn.
Pages 301-302, The Rocky Mountain Saints by T. B. Stenhouse, 1873.
Vol. 5, pages 54-55, Wilford Woodruff’s Diary, June 2, 1857
clyde,
Let’s take it a little further. You believe that there are millions perhaps billions of gods in the universe. I believe there is One God in the universe.
You believe that the God of this planetary system was once a man as were all of the other gods and they morphed into gods by obedience to the Mormon system of god making.
I believe that God was always God. I believe that He is eternal. He has no beginning. He has no end.
You believe that God has a wife or several wives as Smith taught that to reach the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom, polygamy was a necessity.
I don’t believe God has one or several wives.
You believe that God and His wives procreate spirit children.
Again, I don’t believe God has any wives and therefore there isn’t any spirit baby procreation.
You believe that Jesus is the spirit off spring of the Mormon god and one of his many wives.
I believe that Jesus is God. That He is eternal. He is not a created being.
We have no common ground. The source of your information is a man with a magic rock.
Shem,
Moses never murdered a man? Huh, thought he did. I must be reading something into this that didn’t really happen; Exodus 2:12. Why in the world did he bury the guy in the sand. Seems a little harsh to bury someone alive.
……and you’ve read the Bible and can’t find the basis of the Trinity in it. Well let me ask you a question. Can you find the basis for millions and billions of gods in the universe all who were once men but by following the Mormon system became gods? Can you find any of the Mormon rituals in the Bible, in the traditions of the Christian Church or in the writings of the Church Fathers or heretics that support Utah Mormonism and their notion of the nature of god?
I can’t find that in the Bible in fact I can’t find it anywhere until Joseph Smith invented it.
I’ll stick with the Church Fathers. Their lineage goes back to the apostles who walked with Jesus. Bottom line, there is no basis for or support for Mormonism any where in the Bible. Joseph Smith constructed his own religion and his own god out of his own imagination.
If you don’t like the doctrine of the Trinity, at least you could pick one of the heretics of the first 400 years of Church history.
SR,
“If I didn’t believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, God made flesh, one and the same as God the Father, then I can absolutely see how the Trinity is a doctrine that could be easily ignored.”
This sums it up for me as well. As a LDS I easily ignored the Trinity. I didn’t know God. Once you learn who He is through Scripture it makes sense. I don’t pretend to know all there is to know about the Trinity, I don’t think anyone will ever know it all, but I think the scriptures give us enough.
Andy,
Great job. I am looking forward to the rest of this series. One of the hardest things for me as a new Christian was the Trinity. Through prayer and Bible study God did reveal himself to me. I’ve said before that Mormons don’t know the true and living God of the Bible, it’s hard to help them understand when they don’t know Him.
Well Shem,
A couple of guys beat me to it, But yes Moses did commit murder. I highly doubt you read your Bible as much as you claim. Also King David was not condemned as You claim. The Bible says, God said King David is the Apple of His eye, and even after the murder God speak highly of King David.
Also Jesus had harsh words to say and maybe did not rip up peoples papers and scream in horror, but did not just allow false teachers and teachings to go on. Also we can look at Men of God who walked with Jesus and were alive during his ministry, Lets see, A man of God calls down Blindness upon a false prophet, According to you this should have never happened. Lets see, Some men of God in the OT killed 400 false prophets. Wow, Again that simply should have never happened.
Lets see, a man of God confronted a liar, that Liar Dropped Dead, then shortly right after, His wife also dropped dead. Wow, to think Men of God did these acts. Well I Guess The Bible must be false since according to You real Men of God did these things.
I wont debate this to change the topic, But lets add, If BY is really a man of God, then he sent out the so called destroying angels, and JS picked up a gun and fired it, supposdly shooting 3 people, Self defense or not, according to you men of God would never do this stuff.
Kate,
As a kid growing up in Catholic school I was taught the doctrine of the Trinity in catechism class. The nuns were clear that this was a mystery that we couldn’t understand. It was something we accepted through faith. It’s true, a person can get pretty deep in the weeds with this doctrine but it doesn’t really frustrate me, in fact I think it’s pretty cool.
When we consider the complexity of God and the universe and any of the other difficult to answer questions that all start with “why” we begin to understand what faith is all about.
I don’t have any problem with the concept that Jesus is God. He has to be. Only God is sinless. Only someone who was sinless could offer the sacrifice required for sin. Jesus has all of the attributes of God.
When John penned the words, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God” I doubt if he spent much time trying to figure out how that could be. You see, that’s what’s called “revelation”, true revelation.
To that end, I also believe that Jesus Christ is God made flesh. And I believe the Holy Spirit is God as well. If I believe in one God yet there are three “persons” of God, then the Trinity makes perfect sense. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all one God, but in three, for lack of a better word, “formats”. So the One in Three, Three in One, makes sense and yet I don’t think I will ever fully understand it.
SR, when I read your post it made me think of this famous quote by Gregory Nazianzen in Orations 40.41:
“This I give you to share, and to defend all your life, the one Godhead and power, found in the three in unit, and comprising the three separately; not unequal, in substances or natures, neither increased nor diminished by superiorities nor inferiorities; in every respect equal, in every respect the same; just as the beauty and the greatness of the heavens is one; the infinite conjunction of three infinite ones, each God when considered in himself; as the Father, so the Son; as the Son, so the Holy Spirit; the three one God when contemplated together; each God because consubstantial; one God because of the monarchia. No sooner do I conceive of the one than I am illumined by the splendor of the three; no sooner do I distinguish them than I am carried back to the one. When I think of anyone of the three I think of him as the whole, and my eyes are filled, and the greater part of what I am thinking escapes me. I cannot grasp the greatness of that one so as to attribute a greater greatness to the rest. When I contemplate the three together, I see but one torch, and cannot divide or measure out the undivided light.”
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Gregory_of_Nazianzus
However, since the Bible clearly states that there are three Gods we are going to have to find some way to reconcile all this so that we can have only one.
Shem, please document “three Gods” from the Bible. Better yet, demonstrate “three Gods” from the Book of Mormon. The Mormon Church has bought into this heresy (tritheism); therefore, your church and religion must have their proof texts. Build a solid case for your “three Gods from the Bible” and we can finally begin some serious discussions on this topic. Note: I must see the distinction “Gods” with the capital “G” – not gods (idols; false gods). You must demonstrate that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are three separate Gods. I hope you realize that making this statement definitively makes you a polytheist, a tritheist, and non-Christian. You can’t make that statement above and then turn around and say this:
We are Christian, and thus we must separate ourselves from the pagans by believing in only one God.
Which is it, Shem? Is it one God or three Gods? This is a contradiction – a logical fallacy. It’s one or the other. This you readily accept and it’s understandable to you, but you scoff at the Trinity as making no sense. The doctrine of the Trinity isn’t a contradiction and its definition can be understood.
Also, we aren’t going to be finding “some way to reconcile all this so that we can have only one.” The Bible is very clear that there is only one God, thus there is no need for us to reconcile anything. God has spoken and He has told us that there is only one God – Isaiah 43:10-12 (many more verses where that came from). I don’t have to reconcile and think it over. I simply believe what the sovereign Lord God of heavan and earth has stated. Isn’t this much easier?
Now this blog seems to want to try to see how much separation there is in this common ground.
Clyde, I know there have been some recent trends within Christian evangelical circles to find “common ground” with groups such as ECT (Evangelicals and Catholics Together) and ST (Standing Together) that encourages religious dialogue with Mormons. These are serious errors for the Christian Church to make in my opinion. I am not alone. Theology matters and so does the gospel of Jesus Christ. The reason why Evangelicals are going down this road is out of ignorance, complacency, and compromising on theology, doctrine, and the gospel.
When it comes to the Trinity, there is no common ground with Mormonism – none. Your own church leaders have stated this (see the quotes above in the article from the LDS News Room). If you don’t believe me, then believe the news reporters for the LDS Church in Salt Lake. I will not compromise on the Trinity, the deity of Jesus Christ, the inerrancy of Scripture, monotheism, salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, and justification by faith alone (just to mention a few). Ironically, the Mormon Church denies all of those tenets, thus further defining the Mormon religion as non-Christian.
Andy,
Great job. I am looking forward to the rest of this series. One of the hardest things for me as a new Christian was the Trinity. Through prayer and Bible study God did reveal himself to me. I’ve said before that Mormons don’t know the true and living God of the Bible, it’s hard to help them understand when they don’t know Him.
Kate,
It’s always a joy to hear of former LDS Church members whom the true and living God has brought to spiritual life and delivered them that false belief system. Welcome to the body of Christ – the family of God. The Trinity is deep theology to a point (mainly in theological words such as hypostasis, perichoresis, ontological and economic Trinity, etc.). However, the basics that we are discussing here can be grasped by the smallest child. I admire your desire to even understand more about it. Regrettably, most Christians today are very ignorant of this doctrine because churches don’t teach doctrine. Things are very out of balance.
I’m glad you are learning from the Trinity series. The other articles should prove to also be helpful to you. Please let me know if there are any questions I can answer for you. I’ll do the best I can in answering those for you.
Moses did not commit murder. Read the account again. He killed the Egyptian because the man was beating an Israelite. It was not murder, it was defense on behalf of one of his own brethren.
Or are you going to argue that I see something being beaten to death and kill the man responsible I am guilty of murder?
I never said Moses did not kill a man. I said it wasn’t murder.
Rick
First of all, the blindness and the death of the liars were direct acts of God. No one pulled out a knife to gouge the eyes or stab the heart. In all instances they declared that God would judge, and let God do what he would.
In the Old Testament the Laws of God prevailed as the secular law, and they declared death as the penalty for blasphemy and idol worship. Those that were killed were guilty of this crime.
At the time of the counsel of Nicaea the laws of God were not the secular laws, and thus execution for this crime would not be justified. Also, their acts were not the result of divine intervention. Again, your comparison doesn’t work.
Christ has harsh words at time, and I have no problem with that. It is the physical violence I was addressing. It seems that if these men had the spirit of God with them they would have been able to silence Arius through words, as Jesus had done.
(I will comment more tomorrow.)
When I first said to Shem, Moses murdered a man, Shem said
Then once it was pointed out to him he replied with,
First off, It sounds to me like your back tracking here, you said he did not do it, but then after it was pointed out, you claim you were saying it was self defense, and I am not the only one who thought that way, 2 others did also.
Then you can claim it was self defense of His people, but sadly His people did not see it that way, His people even said it was murder, So your wrong. Again I choose the Bible over you.
Read again Exdous 2:12 it says,
He clearly looked around to see if anyone was watching, this is murder, he did not just run over to help, he thought about it and made sure their were no witnesses, then he buried the body in the sand, self defense would not need to do that.
Now the next verses shows to of His brothers or (People) Fighting.
How come he did not kill someone in self defense? (Cont)
(cont)
But the next verse has one of his people saying it was murder, not self defense.
Now it says Kill, not murder, but we now it is murder and not self defense since none of these guys said, Thanks for defending me, they said, you gonna Kill us also?
Read the next verse also. The Pharaoh did not say, well it was self defense thats ok. No, he know wants Moses dead.
Sadly your an ignorant guy that so loves darkness that your headed to hell, If thats what you really want, then so be it, But please stop leading others away from eternal life by teaching them false doctrines of men.
Rick
I never backtracked in anything I said, and I don’t care what your twisted perception tells you. I never denied that Moses killed the Egyptian. I said he did not commit murder. It is you that seems to mandate that the term murder and the term kill be synonymous when they are not.
As to all you say, you should think things out first, as you seem to ignore many things about the circumstances surrounding the event.
First, we know that Moses was first raised by his Hebrew Mother (Exodus 2: 8-9). She undoubtedly taught him of God and the gospel.
Second it is obvious that he knew that he was Hebrews. This is seen in the way he interacts with them. He went out to his brethren; he killed the Egyptian but he tried to reason with the Israelites. The whole thing shows that he knew very well who he was. Because of this he acted to defend his people from their oppressors.
Third, consider that the Israelite that makes the comment of Moses killing the Egyptian is the one that the Bible says was in the wrong in striking the other. This is not a man who is going to give a care as why Moses did what he did. He spoke in anger and spoke to something he believed would get Moses to leave him alone. He didn’t care if Moses was justified in killing the Egyptian. He was simply angry at Moses for butting in.
(continued)
Speaking of Pharaoh, of course he saw it as murder. It was an Egyptian that was killed. The Israelites were slaves, and thus the beating or killing of them didn’t mean anything to him. I mean he had ordered the death of all the male children several years earlier. He is hardly a reliable judge as to what is and isn’t murder.
As to Moses, yes he hid the act, which is perfectly understandable given the fact that he was killing one of the Egyptians to save one of the slaves. Do you really think the Egyptians cared about justice? Moses sought to defend his people, but he understood that in doing so he endangered his own life, and so he took precautions.
The problem here is that you are refusing to consider all the context of the event, but are basing your opinion on the base reading of the words, giving no thought to anything else.
Let us make a comparison: In WWII there was a concentration camp known as Sobibor. In order to affect an escape a number of the prisoners beat a guard to death (leaving no blood) and hid his body so that it would not be discovered. This was done so that the Nazi guards would not discover the act and stop the escape.
Moses, being and Israelite and understanding his heritage, sought to help his brethren. He killed an Egyptian, doing so in secret and hiding the Body. This was done so that the Egyptians would not discover the act and prevent him from helping his people further.
Three Gods in the Bible
Genesis 1: 26 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…”
Here we have a definite plurality of Gods, for they said ‘Us’ and not ‘I’ or ‘me.’
Matthew 20: 23 “but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.”
Here we have Christ clearly saying that he and the Father have different levels of authority, which can only be the case if they are separate beings.
Luke 3: 22 “And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
Here we actually see all three God being manifest. Clearly they are separate beings.
John 14: 28 “…If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I ago unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.”
Again, a clear separation of authority, clearly showing two distinct beings.
John 17: 3 “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
Again, two distinct individuals that we are to know.
John 17: 21 “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us…”
If we are to be one in the same way as the Father and Son are one, does that mean we will all become one entity? This verse clearly shows that the oneness of God is not a oneness of being or essence, but a unity of purpose.
(Continued)
1 Corinthians 8: 6 “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”
Paul does not identify Jesus as our one God, but as our Lord who was sent by God. Another clear distinction is made between the two.
Malachi 2: 10 “Have we not all one Father? hath not one God created us?…”
For those who don’t know, this is a statement by The Lord of Hosts, who is Christ. Clearly he is saying that he is separate from the Father, as he includes himself in this statement.
Now, these are just simple passages that clearly speak to there being three Gods. More than once the three are treated as separate and distinct individuals. Christ himself, and more occasions that are listed here, submitted to the Father, spoke of his Father as being greater, and that he did the will of his Father. All this clearly shows that Christ taught that he was not the same being as the Father.
But, there are those verses that seem to say otherwise, like Isaiah 43: 10-13
“Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.”
(continued)
But what is really being said here? Christ, or Jehovah, is asserting his place and authority as the savior. In this roll he is God, or a member of the Godhead, and thus rightly called God, and he is the only one that has the power to act as the savior.
As to no God being formed before or after, this is perfectly true. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost have all always been Gods and always will be. They form the Godhead over this earth, and always have. This is reaffirmed in Isaiah 4: 6, where we read “Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.”
Now, there is no confusion as to our doctrine, despite your claims.
There is no contradiction. There is one Supreme Being that all must submit to, even Christ. This is the Father.
However, there are others besides this Supreme Being that exist in the divine state, and thus can also be rightly called gods (not false or pagan, but also not Supreme).
Speaking of the Godhead, this does not negate the Supreme nature of the Father. What it does is bring the two others that exist in the divine state into a unity with the Supreme Being, and thus forming a governing counsel. Because this governing council is headed by the Supreme Being the counsel carries the title of God, and thus the three separate and distinct beings that comprise this counsel are one God. This makes it proper to apply the title of God to all three, even though only one is Supreme.
Andy
“Is it one God or three Gods? This is a contradiction – a logical fallacy. It’s one or the other. This you readily accept and it’s understandable to you, but you scoff at the Trinity as making no sense. The doctrine of the Trinity isn’t a contradiction and its definition can be understood.”
The trinity is a contradiction; three in one and one in three; separate but the same; all three the exact same being, but at the same time separate.
Where does the contradiction end? The very definition of the Trinity is an attempt to make a plural be a singular. You are trying to somehow prove that 1=3 and 3=1.
We, on the other hand, make no attempt to force a contradictory explanation in our belief of God. There are three separate and distinct individuals. There is, however, only one governing council, which consists of these three individuals. The counsel is referred to as God, and thus the individual members are. Thus there is one God, but at the same time three.
No contradiction.
Well shem,
You’ve been quite busy trying to defend the indefensible. You appear to me to be a desperate man. I know if we would just listen, LISTEN, we would understand how all of this works. OK, let me ask you a few questions. First of all, do the three gods, who make up the council of the gods, all have the same heavenly father and mother? (Or) do they each have a (separate) heavenly father and mother?
Secondly, are the (goddess) wives apart of the council of the gods or do they get shuttled off to a sort of Celestial Relief Society.
Lastly, and this is personal to you, have you ever taken a course in how to do proper Biblical exegesis and interpretation or are you just sort of flying solo over the Scriptures over-laying your desired outcome on what is there?
Shem,
In reality I really dont care, or it does not bother me that Moses Murdered a man. I know this is a serious problem for you for a few reason.
1. It blows your theory out of the water that Men of God would do these things. But lets remember, Before Paul was Saul he murdered people, then God called him and changed his name to Paul. You could argue since He was Saul when he killed people, he stoned christians to death. Then He was not a “Man of God” But he felt he was, since he was a religious leader.
2. According to LDS beliefe, Murders cannot be forgiven. But again, Even if you reject Moses being a murder, King David was, and He was fogiven by God and higly praised by God.
Now I wont keep going back and forth over this, But if I get attacked and I defend myself, thats self defence, If I help another that is not self defence, Thats defending another, its like the police defending me, or the miltary, They defend me, or our country. They are not self defending me.
I also know from experince, I grew up in Michgan and was in lots of fights. Then I moved to Maine, and was in lots of fights. Then I meet a pastor of a church, became friends, and he was having Grappling classes, Gracie Ju-Jitsu Class, you can google it if your not sure, Basicly it is submission style fighting. Some of the pastors friends and traing partners were pro boxers and later went onto fight in the UFC. One was even the champion for 4 title defences. I also took Judo for years.
I have seen every UFC from day one till now, follow the fights, (cont)
(Cont)
And I know something about both fighing and self defence.
Now as to you claiming their are three Gods, Again I choose Scripture and reject you. I have said this before, God in the OT says many times, Their are NO GODS before me, their will be none after me, I KNOW of NO other GODS.
The Bible also tells us, God cannot lie, and it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie. So If God says He know of none other, than How can LDS be correct in saying, their are both Millions of Gods, and they will be gods someday?
Then of Jesus and the Holy spirit are Gods, Then God the father lied since He claims to know of no other gods. So He seems not to be aware of Hos Son or the Holy spirit that are Gods.
Then if God the father has a God and his father has is a god and it keeps going back and back, then we have a problem since God claims He does not know of them.
Another problem is, If God has Gods above Him, maybe His father, or some one more powerful, than Him, Then we have another problem, that is this
It seems God could not swear by anyone great than Him, so He swore by Himself. But if their were Gods before Him, them one of them must be more powerful than Him.
Shem,
I will half-heartedly applaud your effort in trying to prove three Gods from the Bible despite it being a miserable failure, a heretical travesty, and a nightmare of the worst kind when it comes to any resemblance of sound, biblical interpretation. Reading the verses you cited as proof texts along with your explanations was like reading the transcript of Arius himself from the Council of Nicea. No wonder the bishops covered their ears and screamed to deafen the voice of Arius. However, I didn’t scream or cover my eyes. I am not a bit surprised at your proof texts and explanations. I have heard this time and time again from Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses whom I have had lengthy discussions. Arius and his followers were thrown out of the church. This is why the LDS Church and its Arian and tritheist heresies will not be allowed into the body of Christ today. It’s a spiritual cancer that no sane person would readily accept into the body. Spiritual death is only imminent.
It comes down to this, Shem. You aren’t being honest with the text of Scripture, and you are inserting LDS presuppositions upon the text in order to get it to say what you want. Anybody can play this game. I can make the Bible say whatever I want it to say if I complete steamroll the Scriptures and dispose of any proper biblical interpretation (hermeneutics) rules and skills. The cults and false religions of the world are masters at distorting the Scriptures. They learn from their master – Satan. He misquoted and abused the text of Scripture in a vain attempt with the Lord during the forty days of testing in the wilderness. Satan would quote Scripture and Jesus would answer him correctly quoting Scripture in context.
You failed to do what I really asked for in referencing specifically three Gods. It is fruitless and normally non-productive to engage in “Bible ping pong.” Two sides just keep serving Bible verses to one another. There is simply no end to it. I will state again what I said in the article. The doctrines of the Bible, namely the deity of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity, will never be seen or accepted by those who have not been spiritually regenerated. They are dead in their sins (Ephesians 2:1), are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14), and see the gospel as mere rubbish and foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18). Mormons have given themselves over to a false spirit, gospel, and Christ (2 Corinthians 11:4). They have seared their conscience (1 Tim 4:1-2).
You will not find anyone within true, orthodox Christianity that will agree with your conclusions. All religions hostile to Christianity give the same answers on some of these verses that you do. What makes Mormons unique is that they are the most infamous at being tritheists (belief in three Gods). This is why Mormonism will continue to be placed outside of Christianity.
Shem, I took a full year of Bible hermeneutics at college. It is not possible for me to even begin to give you the cliff notes from those difficult studies. I will tell you that Bible interpretation is very difficult and requires patience, meticulous attention to detail in what is being said in Scripture. Proper interpretation rules are to be followed that ensure one’s getting it right to handle God’s Word correctly (2 Timothy 2:15). When these interpretation rules are followed it ensures the biblical exegete that he or she will not err down the line.
When it comes to this issue regarding God and if there are other gods out there whether equal to, subordinate, or even alive and existing, it must be understood that there are very clear and numerous texts from Scripture declaring monotheism (only one true living God); this is the starting point (we could say in this case rule #1). It all begins here. All interpretation of other texts in Scripture dealing with this topic (references to gods, plurality, etc.) must be first placed through this interpretive filter. When there are Scriptures that may point to polytheism, the “safety net” kicks in and brings the exegete back to the starting position in order to prevent heresy and faulty interpretation. There are a plethora of Bible texts that point to monotheism. All other Scriptures must be seen in light of them. In reality if God only declared just one time that He is the only true God, then that should suffice for fallen humanity. God does not have to repeat himself. However, God repeated this throughout the Old Testament over and over again because He knows that we humans are slow to understand and need some things repeated to us over and over again. God’s assertion of His being the only God is a constant theme especially through the Old Testament due to the Jews constantly being led astray by the polytheistic religions around them. The Jews were monotheists in contrast to all the other religions of the world around them that were polytheistic. This is what set the Jews apart from everyone else – exactly what God wanted! The Jews quoted the Shema in Deuteronomy 6:4 when they woke up, throughout the day, and before they went to bed that night. Jesus affirmed this in Mark 12:29.
Nevertheless, Shem, let’s begin our “ping pong” match. My answers will be very brief. Your interpretation and exegesis fails, and I will show you why. Your words are in italics.
Three Gods in the Bible: Genesis 1: 26 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…” Here we have a definite plurality of Gods, for they said ‘Us’ and not ‘I’ or ‘me.’
You failed to look at the next verse (Genesis 1:27) where it switches back to the singular: “His own”; “He”; “him”.
Genesis 5:1-2 is also singular: “God”; “He”.
Malachi 2:10 – “one God created”
Isaiah 44:24 – The Lord said He created “by Myself” and “all alone”
Nehemiah 9:6 – “You” (singular) alone are the Lord…You have made the heavens.”
Isaiah 44:6-8; 45:5-6, 22 = God knows of no other gods; there is no God besides God.
Shem, Genesis 1:26 doesn’t support three Gods. Using your faulty interpretation and reasoning, “Us” and “Our” is anything above the number 1 because it’s plural. Therefore, I could deduce that “Us” and “Our” is not three Gods but is rather 999 trillion gods. Do you want to go there?
Matthew 20: 23 “but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.” Here we have Christ clearly saying that he and the Father have different levels of authority, which can only be the case if they are separate beings.
The Father and the Son are not separate beings. They are one Being and yet distinct Persons. Your interpretation is going to have to reconcile Matthew 28:18 where Jesus claims to have all authority given to Him in heaven and on earth. Obviously, this comes from the Father. Who else could give it? Does the Father stop being God and is He now less than the Son? Absolutely not!
Luke 3: 22 “And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.” Here we actually see all three Gods being manifest. Clearly they are separate beings.
They certainly are if I accept Joseph Smith’s heretical teaching of the Father being a personage of flesh and bones (D&C 130:22). However, the Bible does not teach this. God the Father is a spirit (John 4:24). The Holy Spirit…well, it’s obvious…is Spirit. Christian theology teaches that only Jesus Christ the Son took on human flesh (John 1:14). Your “three Gods” theory fails because of rule #1 in interpretation regarding the Bible’s teaching on monotheism. If that is your conclusion, then the “safety net” should catch you and make you reset to the starting position because you have reached a non-biblical interpretation. But, you are reading the Doctrine and Covenants back into the Bible. This is a serious error. The Bible is God’s oldest revelation. He clearly revealed His nature in the Old and New Testament. He doesn’t change (Malachi 3:6). The Father doesn’t change from Spirit to flesh and bones just because the 14 year-old Joseph Smith said so when wandering in the woods in upstate New York.
If your interpretation was correct, then Jesus would have instructed the disciples to baptize disciples in the “names” (plural) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit rather than the NAME (singular) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). Jesus knew the nature of God better than any human being. Jesus would know, since He is God. Jesus is the one who has explained God (John 1:18) and revealed the Father to whomever He wishes (Matthew 11:27).
The Christian church, theology, and creeds state that three Persons of the Trinity are distinct but NOT separate. The one God/Being cannot separate. God cannot be divided into parts. Jesus did not teach that there are three Gods. If anyone would have known if there are other gods in existence or that He was one God among other Gods, then Jesus wouldn’t have affirmed the Shema of Deut 6:4 in Mark 12:29.
John 14: 28 “…If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I ago unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” Again, a clear separation of authority, clearly showing two distinct beings.
I refer you back again to Matthew 28:18 where Jesus has been given full authority by the Father. The Father has all authority and so does the Son. Why and how is this possible? They are one God who is equal in nature, essence, and substance. Yes, they are distinct in their Person: two distinct Persons, but NOT two distinct beings. Big difference!
John 17: 3 “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” Again, two distinct individuals that we are to know.
We are to know all three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This happens at regeneration and conversion when the triune God takes residence in that human being who has been brought to spiritual life by a triune work of each Person. Notice the phrase “the only true God”. There goes your “three Gods” theory. I guess this means that only one of the Gods is true and the other three aren’t, right? “The only true God” is singular – not plural. Other Scriptures confirm this, which also confirms that this interpretation is correct.
John 17: 21 “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us…” If we are to be one in the same way as the Father and Son are one, does that mean we will all become one entity? This verse clearly shows that the oneness of God is not a oneness of being or essence, but a unity of purpose.
No, believers in Christ will not share in the being of God; they will not be God meaning they will not have God’s triune nature. Resurrected believers will always be human in their nature – not God. “One” refers to unity among people in the midst of their diversity. Christ prayed for their unity. The way the word “one” is used here is entirely different from the way it is used in John 10:30. Union with the Father and the Son is obtained and kept up only by the Holy Spirit. This is all about spiritual union.
If the members of the Godhead are one in purpose, then is it possible that the Holy Spirit would ever contradict what the Father or Son has already revealed? I could reference you many Mormon quotes which state that they contradict each other. You can’t demonstrate from the Bible the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate gods that are united only in purpose. John 17 shows that the Father and the Son are perfectly united in purpose, but never does it say they are separate gods.
Shem, if I wanted to see if the Mormon perversion of this text would pan out, then I should be able to insert my name into the following texts. I won’t dare put my name in there, but I will put your name in there since you are LDS and your religion has perverted this text. Let’s see if this makes sense and can be reconciled with other Scriptures as support. If the oneness that Christ shares with the Father is identical to the oneness that believers have with Christ, then you can make this statement:
Shem and the Father are one (John 10:30)
Whoever has seen Shem has seen the Father (John 14:9)
Whatever the Father does, Shem does likewise (John 5:19)
Whoever does not honor Shem does not honor the Father who sent Him (John 5:23)
All that the Father has is Shem’s (John 16:15)
Are you ready to affirm this, Shem?
1 Corinthians 8: 6 “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.” Paul does not identify Jesus as our one God, but as our Lord who was sent by God. Another clear distinction is made between the two.
Wrong again, Shem. Paul does identify Jesus as God: Romans 9:5; Romans 10:9, 13; Joel 2:32 (Calling upon Christ and calling upon Yahweh are equated. Christ is Yahweh. The Father is Yahweh); Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:15-17; 2:9; “God and Savior” (Titus 2:10); “God and Savior, Christ Jesus” (Titus 2:13); “God our Savior” (Titus 3:4); “Jesus Christ our Savior” (Titus 3:6); God our Savior also refers to Yahweh in the Old Testament: Psalm 17:6-7; 106:21. Jesus is called Lord in the above verses. God is the Lord (Psalm 109:21; 141:8). The LORD is God (Psalm 118:27)
Malachi 2: 10 “Have we not all one Father? Hath not one God created us?…” For those who don’t know, this is a statement by The Lord of Hosts, who is Christ. Clearly he is saying that he is separate from the Father, as he includes himself in this statement.
The LORD stopped speaking in Malachi 2:9 (look at the quotation marks). Malachi is now speaking. I don’t understand how you are getting the conclusion that you do from this text. Maybe you have misquoted the wrong text. This text is talking about the covenant people’s lack of faithfulness toward God. “The LORD” and the “the LORD of hosts” in Malachi 2:12 are one and the same. Again, the Son and the Father are not separate. God cannot separate Himself. God cannot be divided into parts.
Now, these are just simple passages that clearly speak to there being three Gods. More than once the three are treated as separate and distinct individuals. Christ himself, and more occasions that are listed here, submitted to the Father, spoke of his Father as being greater, and that he did the will of his Father. All this clearly shows that Christ taught that he was not the same being as the Father.
The passages don’t teach three Gods. However, you are free to relish in your heresy. Millions have before you and probably will after you have eternally perished should you not repent of your polytheism. I will keep saying the same thing regarding separation and distinction (see above). Yes, the Son submitted to the will of the Father in carrying out the plan of redemption, which was to be the Redeemer of His people, thus resulting in Him being the sacrifice where He would shed His blood for His people to bring reconciliation with the Father (Eph 1:7; 2 Cor 5:18-21). Jesus humbled himself and took on a human nature to suffer death on the cross (Phil 2:8; Heb 2:9; 5:8).
Mormons, and especially Jehovah’s Witnesses, love John 14:28 where Jesus says that “the Father is greater than I.” They love it so much because they love the Arian heresy. This was one of Arius’ favorite verses that he turned into songs for the people of Alexandria, Egypt to sing before the Council of Nicea. Once again, their heretical distortion of this verse does not work when viewed in light of other Scriptures.
The word “greater” in Greek is the transliteration word “meizon.” This always refers to position. Christ is functionally subordinate in His role as the Redeemer and 2nd Person of the Trinity. Remember, a difference in role or function does not equate to inferiority in nature or essence. The Father was in a greater position during the earthly ministry of Jesus. In Philippians 2:7 Jesus is referred to as a “servant.” This is a reference to the incarnation. In becoming flesh Jesus restricted himself to human limitations. Jesus was made lower than the angels (in position!) for the suffering of death (Heb 2:7, 9).
Position is not the same thing as nature. The Greek transliteration for nature is “kreitton.” Jesus was made lower in position than the angels, but He is better than the angels in nature (Heb 1:4). The Father commanded the angels to worship Jesus in Heb 1:6. Only God is worthy of worship (Deut 6:13). Jesus accepted worship throughout His earthly ministry and after His resurrection (Matthew 14:28; 28:9). Jesus was called God by His disciples (John 20:28) and the Father Himself even called the Son “God” (Heb 1:8; Psalm 45:6, 7). Jesus’ nature is an exact representation of the Father’s nature (Heb 1:3).
Example/Application: Is there a difference when I say that President Obama is greater than I or better than I? You bet! President Obama is greater by position of his office as the President of the United States of America. However, President Obama is not better than I am because President Obama is a mere man just as I am. He’s greater than me, but not better than me: Equal in nature (human) but greater in position.
Speaking of the Godhead, this does not negate the Supreme nature of the Father. What it does is bring the two others that exist in the divine state into a unity with the Supreme Being, and thus forming a governing counsel. Because this governing council is headed by the Supreme Being the counsel carries the title of God, and thus the three separate and distinct beings that comprise this counsel are one God. This makes it proper to apply the title of God to all three, even though only one is Supreme.
There is only one nature of God – not one that is “Supreme” or less supreme (I guess this is what you would say…who knows…that is the conclusion). You won’t get “supreme” in the Bible and you certainly won’t get “governing council.” Shem, you are injecting Joseph Smith’s King Follet Discourse into this verse – doesn’t fit and doesn’t belong there. Joseph Smith talked about “the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods.” Rubbish! This is called eisegesis – inserting your heresy into the text when it doesn’t belong there. Joseph Smith and his heresy came much later than the God-breathed canon of Scripture.
The trinity is a contradiction; three in one and one in three; separate but the same; all three the exact same being, but at the same time separate. Where does the contradiction end? The very definition of the Trinity is an attempt to make a plural be a singular. You are trying to somehow prove that 1=3 and 3=1.
There is no contradiction. They are not separate. The Father, Son, and Spirit are the same Being but distinct Persons. A contradiction would be to state that the Father, Son, and Spirit are the same Being and they are three Beings or that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Gods, yet the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God (your assertion and claim – not mine!). There is a plurality of Persons (yes, that’s Genesis 1:26), but one God (Deut 6:4). I know it’s tough to grapple with. However, that is how God has revealed Himself and we have to accept what He said and let God be God. An infinite Being cannot and should not be completely rationalized and all sorted out in neat, human packages and configurations so we can sleep doctrinally and theologically comfy every night. Theological tension is a good thing and it should be there. God is holy and triune. We are sinful – period.
Let’s look at the tritheistic math heresy: 1+1+1= 3 (three gods)
Let’s look at Christian Trinitarian math: 1x1x1= 1 (one God)
We, on the other hand, make no attempt to force a contradictory explanation in our belief of God. There are three separate and distinct individuals. There is, however, only one governing council, which consists of these three individuals. The counsel is referred to as God, and thus the individual members are. Thus there is one God, but at the same time three. No contradiction.
Yeah, there’s a lot of contradiction in that statement along with Joseph Smith’s King Follet heresy being dropped upon the Scripture and inserted into the minds of Mormons who have believed his lie. Shem, you are presupposing that this “council of Gods” is only three people. Where does that come from? Joseph Smith didn’t state only three when he said that in the King Follet Discourse.
Just like Genesis 1:26, your conclusion of plurality and council leads it open to being anywhere from 2 to 999 trillion or more. Let’s don’t play the hide and seek semantic games. We all know that Mormonism teaches that there are millions or billions of gods out there. You may not worship or pray to them, but your religion acknowledges that they are out there. Believing they exist makes you a polytheist. Christianity is passionately monotheistic. The God of the Bible is the First Cause. There is no god above Him. He doesn’t have a father who also had a father and so forth at infinitum (according to Mormonism). This kind of “theology” is thoroughly pagan and probably trumps Hinduism in their 93 million gods and goddesses.
The Bible doesn’t teach any “governing council” or a “council referred to as God.” The Bible teaches the singular NAME of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19).
I reject the heresy of tritheism (three Gods) completely and totally. It is disgraceful and dishonors God. I agree with the church fathers in condemning it as a damnable heresy.
“Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two Gods, and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked…they deny the divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other.” (Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of John 2:2)
“In fine, notwithstanding the said heretics have gathered the origin of their error from consideration of what is written: Although we call Christ God, and the Father God, still Scripture does not set forth two Gods, any more than two Lords or two teachers. And now, indeed, concerning the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit…the whole of the Old and New Testaments might be adduced in testimony that thus the true faith stands…Christ…He is, moreover, asserted to be God by the Scriptures also, and this is believed to be so by us…Christ is also God…there is declared to be one God by the Scriptures, and how it is held and believed by us…For we both know, and read, and believe and maintain that God is one…Does Scripture set before us two Gods? Unless, therefore we hold all this with fitting veneration and lawful argument, we shall reasonably be thought to have furnished a scandal to the heretics, not assuredly by the fault of the heavenly Scriptures, which never deceive; but by the presumption of human error, whereby they have chosen to be heretics. And in the first place, we must turn the attack against them who undertake to make against us the charge of saying that there are two Gods.” (Novatian, The Trinity, Chapter 30)
“…the unity of God, that unity of His is preserved intact; for He is one, and yet He has a Son, who is equally with Himself comprehended in the same Scriptures…we have shown above that Two are actually described in Scripture as God and Lord…they are not said to be two Gods and two Lords, but that they are two as Father and Son” (Tertullian, Against Praxeus, Chapter 19)
“And thus there appeared another bedside Himself. But when I say another, I do not mean that there are two Gods, but that it is only as light of light…Thus, then, was the Word made manifest, even as the blessed John says. For he sums up the things that were said by the prophets, and shows that this is the Word, by whom all things were made. For he speaks to this effect: ‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made.” (Hippolytus, Against the Heresy of One Noetus, Sections 10-12)
Andy, that was informative , thanks.
Shem, it’s late so I’ll be brief. You cited 8 verses from the Bible and then said: ” Now these are
just simple passages that clearly speak to there being three Gods .”
That was interesting given that most of those verses said nothing about “three” Gods.
Be that as it may you then quoted Isa. 43:10-13 . While you correctly mention that Jehovah
(Christ) was a member of the Godhead when He said what Isaiah recorded in these verses , I
have to wonder what kind of a member ? Equal as a God with the Father ? If “Godhood” is
defined by LDS as ” a state of glorified perfection” , and if as LDS believe that Jehovah was not
in such a state at this time( Isa 43) how does He function as the Almighty God , the True God ,
Most High God ( Jer.10:10 ; Gen 14:22; Ps 78:56; Ex 6:3 ) as a member of the Godhead ?
Also ,you then said that each member of the Godhead have always been Gods . Always?
Seems to me that none of them have “always” ruled as a God , instead we have the Mormon
Godhead consisting of three men , a father and two of his millions of sons , each of whom had
to work their way up to become “exalted ” and take their present position . You’re also missing
the point by saying there is only ” one supreme Being ” in that Godhead ,so He is the sole
object of LDS worship . Yet Jehovah was worshiped .
Sorry but I’m stickin with a higher view of our Creator–the Holy Trinity
Good catch Mike.
To say that the LDS gods have always been gods is nonsense. They were once men. Such foolishness and the degree to which Mormons will go to try and support notions of god that are totally in conflict with LDS Utah brand teachings.
Mormon prophets were basically playing, “Let’s make up our own religion” when they spun their heresy. It isn’t even good heresy. It’s childish, immature and worse than that, blasphemous.
Now here’s the challenge for the Mormon reader. You now have the truth regarding who God is. What are you going to do with it? Continue to satisfy your own desires or turn to the Living God that He might forgive you of your sin of rejecting Him?
It’s very difficult to give up on something that you want to so badly believe in, but wanting something to be true doesn’t make it true. Our former Mormon and now Christian friend Jack Garcia talks about how badly he wanted Mormonism to be true even after discovering that it wasn’t. But Jack, once knowing what he knew, couldn’t turn away from God.
That’s the challenge for Mormons. Do you want Mormonism or do you want God? Which do you love more?
What about Mormonism’s own scriptures? Joseph Smith said this about his BoM:
“I told the brethren, [the twelve Apostles] that the Book of Mormon was the most correct book of any on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” JSHC 7 Vol., 4:461
Let’s look at 1 Nephi 11:21
“…behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father!”
1 Nephi 11:32:
“And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Everlasting God was judged of the world…”
1 Nephi 13:40
“…that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and Eternal Saviour of the world.”
These verses clearly speak of the Holy Trinity. Now, all of this was in the original BoM and these verses have since been changed. Mormon leaders changed their own scriptures to try and make them line up with Joseph Smith’s King Follett discourse and it looks to me like Mormons are trying to make the Bible line up with that same discourse. It doesn’t work with the original BoM and it certainly doesn’t work with God’s Holy Word.
Kate, The verse you gave from the BoM I also gave to Shem, Pretty much he chalked it up as nothing more than updating the language, that is why their were changes made.
Andy said to shem,
All of this makes perfect sense and fits perfectly in light of the fact that Satan is Shem Father, The Bible does say, some people are children or the Devil and their Father is satan. So If we have seen Shem, we have seen his father (The Devil), and he does honor his father and do his works, so it fits if you view it like that.
Falcon, it’s hard for me to believe that Jesus would have directed Mormon leaders to teach the things they have about the Godhead, but that’s their claim . Shem has said ( on another thread)
that the Father is the one Divine person in the Godhead who he worships , this is his “Supreme
Being” . Mormon authorities have taught that the Father is the sole object of worship for LDS,
yet the Bible reveals that this falls short of God’s will for believers in Jesus as Jesus is worthy to
receive the same kind of worship as is due the Father , which only makes sense IF we can actually
have a direct personal relationship with Jesus Himself like we do with the Father, and the Bible
assures us that we can indeed enter into such a relationship .
This series on the Trinity that Andy has shared is important because for one thing people will
get a chance to choose which Creator to follow, either the newly revealed one by Mormon
prophets/apostles , or the one revealed by the prophets/ apostles in the Bible.
Kate/rick
Updated the language of the BoM is what the Shem-master says? How do you do that when the original is written in Reformed Egyptian, the plates are back in the ground somewhere and in order to “translate” it, you need Joseph Smith’s magic rock and his hat no doubt.
That rock means a lot in Mormonism. It’s like an LDS Ouija Board. When the Utah Mormons were going through the days that they dedicated the temple at Manti, they put the magic rock on the altar. Who knows, maybe if they used a water witching stick, they could find some archeological evidence for the BoM or perhaps the golden plates.
All joking aside, sort of, the Utah Mormons will stick to their polytheistic view of god because they like the Joseph Smith story. They’re hooked on it and once they get the old bosom burning experience, everything in Mormonism is true……………even when proved other wise.
Andy has clearly shown two very important things from the Scriptures and church history. First of all the doctrine of the Trinity did not come about because the Emperor brought the hammer down and told the Church Fathers to develop it. Second, and most importantly, God clearly reveals Himself to be One God.
I could come up with a better heresy than the Mormons. I keep telling them, if they want heresy, pick one of the established ones. Mormons aren’t even very good Arians.
Update the language? What these verses were “updated” to was a complete change of doctrine. When you read parts of Alma it makes more sense with the “original language” of these verses. I know that some of the grammar was updated and that’s fine I suppose, but wouldn’t you think that if God were giving Joseph Smith the words on a magic rock that he would have gotten the grammar and the meaning right? Especially the verses that told the world who He is?
One thing I’ve learned from this blog is that Mormons will come up with absolutely ANYTHING to hold on to their one true church. They can make pretty good excuses as to why their past leaders revealed crazy stuff (think Adam/God, polygamy, blood atonement, etc.) That is just something I couldn’t do. I couldn’t make excuses or lie by omission once the evidence was before me, so I resigned and had my name and records removed.
Rick
First of all, I never said these verses were an update in language, and I would thank you to stop twisting my words. I said the changes are either and update in language, or a correction of mistyping. In this case it was a misprint. There is no great conspiracy here; just a simple error. Leaving out two words is not that surprising. And, if I remember correctly, it was Joseph Smith who made this correction, and for this reason.
Now, as to other thing you say, I am not going to argue the definition of murder. I do not accept that this act on the part of Moses was murder, and I will leave it at that. Now, you are in error in saying that murder cannot be forgiven. It can be, and will be, as all sins will be forgiven, except that made against the Holy Spirit. What murderer’s can’t have is exaltation and eternal life (1 John 3: 15).
Speaking of self-defense, I couldn’t agree more with you in your definitions; but then I never said Moses acted in self-defense. I said he acted in the defense of the Israelite.
As to the nature of God, you seem to be ignoring everything I said on the subject; or at least everything that is different than what you already think we believe.
The Godhead carries the Title of God. This is the one God that exists, that has none beside it (or equal to) and that has none formed before or after. Yet it is still made up of three separate and distinct individuals, all called God, for they are all part of the Godhead, or the one God. None of the verses that you give, or mention, disprove
Andy
Let me ask you a question: What if your rule #1 is wrong?
In ready what you posted (and I didn’t read it all) one thing kept coming to mind. The only reason you cannot see what I see is because of this one rule. You constantly refer back to it. It is your safety net, as you put it. In other words, it is what allows you to interpret the Bible in the way you do. But it is wrong, and so everything coming from it is wrong.
In all your reasoning you simply prove even more that there has to be the three distinct beings, all forming a godhead, or a single unit that is God. If the Father hath committed all authority to the Son than they must be separate beings. Otherwise it is like me giving myself authority. It makes no sense, but is just another contradiction forced by the doctrine of the trinity.
You are perfectly correct in that no one can really know the nature of God unless it be revealed to him. However, that revelation does not come by forcing interpretation through narrow rules. It comes through prayer and fasting and faith in Christ. This is the only sure way to truly understand anything of God, including the meaning of scripture.
No, I have never studied the rules that men have laid down to force a certain meaning from the Bible. I have always relied on the inspiration and revelation from God, and through that I will learn all truth, for God has promised it.
(continued)
I am not going to address ever verse again. However, I will say that in Genesis 1: 27 the singular is used, not because there is only one being, but because there is only one that actually oversaw the work. In verse 26 the Father is giving instruction to the Son that he make men on their image. In verse 27 the Son is actually doing the work.
Speaking of Matthew 18: 28, which you seem to enjoy a lot, let us ask where he got the authority. Especially consider that he did not make this claim until after he had been resurrected. We read in 1 Corinthians 15: 27 that the one who gave him all power, who put all things under him, is excepted from this, or that he was not put under him. Clearly the Son does not have authority over the Father. So, when he makes the statement in Matthew 18: 28 he is saying that the Father has committed everything to him, that he has authority to do all things that the Father would do. But he is still not the same being as the Father.
Let us speak to John 17: 21: I really have no clue what you are saying here, but I think you really prove my point. If in this case the term one refers to unity, why does it not carry this meaning at other times. I think it does; that every time the three members of the Godhead are said to be one it is speaking of their unity is purpose, power, and attributes.
(continued)
Concerning Malachi, I don’t know where you get the quotation marks from (I use the KJV) but verse 10 is the same paragraph as verse nine, and thus it is still the Lord of Hosts speaking.
The simple fact is that it is only by imposing your rule of monotheism that you force the Bible to teach the trinity. This one man-made rule is what it all stems from. You are wrong, and you will have to acknowledge it at some point. I just hope the time doesn’t come too late.
No, I have never studied the rules that men have laid down to force a certain meaning from the Bible. I have always relied on the inspiration and revelation from God, and through that I will learn all truth, for God has promised it.
Shem,
That’s exactly why there are so many false religions, sects, and cults led by false prophets and false “christs.” These wolves all said the same thing. This is also why many of these religions frown on any type of formal education and training in the Scriptures. Your rationale and philosophy on this issue isn’t any better than the Branch Davidians who followed David Koresh. There are many similarities between Mormonism and the Jehovah’s Witnesses. However, on the issue of pursuing academic studies there is a big difference. The JW’s have very negative views on any education past the high school level. It works great because they keep their people ignorant looking to the Watchtower to give them all the answers. Mormonism, on the other hand, encourages college and graduate studies.
I recently went on the BYU site to see what course offerings they had for the Bible. There were a few. I was surprised to even see a few courses offerings on Greek. It may have been classical and not Koine (Bible Greek). Nevertheless, there were some positive things there for students to pursue should they desire. For some reason I found no courses on hermeneutics. I wonder why? I think it’s pretty obvious.
Shem, with all due respect, get serious and don’t be naive. So, you would have us believe that 2,000 years ago human beings concepted the idea of a triune God that is incomprehensible knowing that the human mind would never fully comprehend it; they determined to force this man made doctrine on the Bible and then built rules around it to make it fit? And for what purpose? That makes a lot of sense. No, not learning hermeneutics fits in very well with Mormonism because it gives the Mormons an excuse to handle the Bible in a sloppy and careless way and then claim that their moral compass of truth all comes from the burning of the bosom. You are free to rely on warm fuzzies and heartburn as your guide for truth. I will not. The Bible warns against such things (Prov 14:12; 28:26; Jer 17:9). God has already given His truth – His Word – to His creation (John 17:17; Isaiah 40:8).
The simple fact is that it is only by imposing your rule of monotheism that you force the Bible to teach the trinity. This one man-made rule is what it all stems from.
It’s not my rule of monotheism. I don’t force monotheism on the Bible. Monotheism is forced upon me from the Bible! God has spoken and said repeatedly that there are no other gods – anywhere! Shem, you’re problem isn’t with me; it’s with the God of the Bible. I didn’t create or invent monotheism. You can get in line with other rebel sinners on judgment day and lobby your protests against God. You’ll have your “day in court.” However, I’m guessing you won’t be able to say anything. Isaiah was God’s prophet. Notice what he said in Isaiah 6:5. If Isaiah could say that in his spiritual state, then I don’t know how you think you will fare better in your spiritual state (polytheist).
There is no “Rule 1” in formal hermeneutics. I was using common language and terms in trying to make a point from the study of hermeneutics. When it comes to the issue of monotheism and polytheism it is very clear from the enormous amount of Bible texts that there is only one God. This is the starting point. Why is this the starting point? Let’s get technical if that is what you wish. It’s called the “analogy of faith,” which means Scripture interprets Scripture – vague, unclear, obscure, or non-specific texts in the Bible have to be interpreted in light of texts that are not vague, very clear, non-obscure, and very specific. This prevents coming to false conclusions or making up doctrines based on one Bible verse alone that is very obscure and unclear (ex: Mormons taking 1 Cor 15:29 and making an entire doctrine and church practice out of it). The “analogy of faith” is defined very well in the Westminster Confession of Faith:
“The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.” (Chapter I; Section IX).
You are wrong, and you will have to acknowledge it at some point. I just hope the time doesn’t come too late.
Shem, you are certainly entitled to your opinions and convictions. I certainly have mine. You are a polytheist and you believe you are correct. I am a monotheist and I believe I am correct. One of is incorrect. We both can’t be right. The burden of proof is on you. You’re the “new guy” on the religious “block.” When the Mormon stands on the cliff of history and looks back there is no bridge of reality or historical link anywhere in sight before the year 1805 when your dear prophet Smith was born in Vermont. The apostles, church fathers, and reformers never taught polytheism. It’s nowhere in their writings – NOWHERE. Monotheism is what they all taught – one God. Christians can stand on the same cliff and look back 2,000 years and beyond with a visible bridge intact that they can walk across. History isn’t on your side, Shem. It’s your enemy. You have nothing past the 19th century except religious fiction in the form of the Book of Mormon. Oddly enough, in that work of religious fiction I don’t see polytheism.
Thank you for your apparent concern for my eternal demise. However, I think I’ve got a much better deal on the horizon if you did happen to be right, which you aren’t. But, let’s say that you are. In Mormonism, I’ve plenty of opportunity for second and third chances to accept your polytheistic god on Kolob. I’ve got Mormon teenagers working overtime doing proxy work in the baptismal font before and after school for people like me. Then we’ve got the millennium. I’ve seen Adolf Hitler’s temple record. He’s on his way to becoming a god in the Mormon universe. If that wretched human being is on his way to becoming a god where he will have his own planet engaging in endless celestial sex with wives and people praying to him, etc., well, then, things are looking pretty good for me on this end.
Conversely, if you are wrong, you’re in a heap of spiritual trouble. The Bible doesn’t teach second chances for salvation for polytheistic, Arian heretics. The moment God takes your last breath away from you and silences your heart it’s all over (Hebrews 9:27). It’s eternal life for God’s elect and eternal suffering/death for the reprobate. It’s going to be a stricter judgment and penalty on people like you that have been warned of polytheism and shown the truth and have rejected it for the teachings of a 19th century false prophet (Luke 12:47-48). If I were you I’d take my chances with the monotheistic God of the Bible rather than the polytheistic god on Kolob.
Shem,
How can you say ” that you force the Bible to teach the trinity” ? from the previous dialogues we’ve had in the past? ( yes, the same twin.spin from city -data)
How can one force the revelation that:
…………that Jesus was accused of claiming to be God John 10:33
……….. that the Father is God Galatians 1:1
………. that the Holy Spirit is God Acts 5:4
That this Deity dwells in Christ Colossians 2:9
………….. “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily”
Yet there is only one (singular ) God
Isaiah 44:8
Isaiah 45:5, 6, 14, 18
Isaiah 45:22
Isaiah 46:9
Joel 2:27
Mark 12:32
No where in the Bible is it revealed as “parsonages”
Andy
The only sure way to understand the meaning of Scripture is for God to reveal the meaning to us. Scripture cannot be used as the sole means of interpretation. It will never work, for the simple fact that we are all going to see things in different ways.
Peter was praised by Christ for having direct revelation from God. “Blessed art thou,” he said. “For flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in Heaven.” (Matthew 16: 17)
I feel blessed this day to be able to declare that my testimony of God and his Son is not based on a systematic interpretation of scripture instituted by man; for I have had it revealed to me by God.
This witness is a burning, or a direct communication from the Holy Spirit to my spirit, the same as was felt on the day of Pentecost, “for they were pricked in their hearts.” (Acts 2: 37) Joel tells us to turn to the Lord with our hearts (Joel 2: 12). Isaiah recognized this when he told the Lord to shut the hearts of the people lest they ” understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.” (Isaiah 6: 10)
Proverbs and Jeremiah are not warning against direct spiritual communication from God, but against those who seek their own pleasure, who do not seek out the divine revelation. They are speaking to the base desires of mortality, not the blessed communication from on High.
Andy (continued)
There is no second chance. Baptism for the dead is for the benefit of those who did not get a first chance in this life. You know the truth. You have studied the true gospel of Christ. If you reject it in this life you will never receive the fullness of God, but will be consigned to lesser glory. If this happens your greatest hope will only be a Terrestrial existence, for Eternal Life in the Celestial Kingdom will be forever beyond your reach.
While it is true that the Terrestrial Glory far surpasses anything we could imagine, how will you feel knowing that you could have had more, that you could have received all that the Father has. The torment of knowing what was possible, and knowing that you have lost it forever, will be exquisite, even as if your were cast into a lake of fire for all eternity. That is the hell that awaits all those who reject the gospel of Christ until it is too late.
Now, I don’t know where you are seeing temple records, and I really couldn’t care less. The Temple is open to all members, and if it gives them comfort to do the work for ancestors or family members we will not stop them. But just because the work is done does not guarantee anything. They must be worthy of that work, and they must accept. Hitler will never be worthy, and so, even if work has been done for him, it will profit nothing, for no murderer will ever rise higher than the Telestial Glory.
If you actually understood the true gospel you would never make any claim such as the one you have made here.
twin.spin
First let me apologize. I don’t seem to remember you, though you remember me.
I can say you force the definition because of what I read in the Bible. Unlike Andy I have no rules that I every verse must fit with, but am able to see the meaning without these constraints, as I am guided by the spirit.
This is what I see the Bible revealing concerning God and his nature.
God, defined as the One Supreme Being, refers only to the Father. This is seen in the many times that even Christ submits to the will of the Father, and is stated fairly directly by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15: 27.
God, defined as any divine being, refers to all divine beings, and thus rightly refers to Christ and the Holy Ghost, as well as the Father.
God, as a Title of Authority, and not an adjective, refers to the Godhead, or the ruling presidency of heaven. The Godhead is the one God of Heaven. Because of this all three member of the Godhead are rightly called God. It is much like the First Presidency of the LDS church. The three members have different levels of authority, but because they form that Presidency together all three are referred to as President.
So, there are numerous occasions that the Bible declares there is only one God, but at these times it is referring to the Godhead as a single entity. But there are many times that the individual members are referred to as individuals.
Mike
Let me address a few points you raise.
You say “what kind of a member?”
Answer: The second member, or the one who stands in supreme authority over everything else, except the Father, who is the first member.
Question: “Equal as a God with the Father?”
Answer: Depends on the definition. As a god, meaning existing in a divine state, then yes, they are equal. As a God, meaning a position of authority and glory, then no, not equal, for the Father has the position of supreme authority.
Question: If “Godhood” is defined as ”a state of glorified perfection,” and if as LDS believe that Jehovah was not in such a state at this time (Isa 43) how does He function as the Almighty God, the True God,
Most High God, as a member of the Godhead?
Answer: Because godhood is a term referring to the state of divine existence, while the Title of God that is applied to Christ is referring to authority and power. He held this authority and power as a member of the Godhead, but had not yet entered into the divine state that is godhood.
Question: “you said that each member of the Godhead have always been Gods. Always?”
Answer: Yes, always; or, to clarify, for the entire existence of this earth. They are the beginning and the end, alpha and omega. This means that they were God when this world had its beginning, and that they will be God when it has its end. So, in the context of this world they have always been and will always be God, and there will never be any other God formed that in relation to this world. As many Christians are fond of saying, context is everything.
I hope this helps.
Shem, it certainly helps to understand what you believe, however it’s not much help in
understanding the Bible’s testimony about God because it finds little support from the
Bible. Concerning Jesus’ authority in the Godhead , He does’nt have authority “over” the
Father , He shares supreme authority ,rule , and power ” with” the Father over all creation .
Concerning Jesus and “Godhood” : according to some Mormon authorities Jehovah attained
to becoming a “god” before His birth as Jesus on earth, and others say He became a “God”
the Almighty Lord God Jehovah at that time , and your definition of “godhood” and how
Jesus never had attained to that ” state of glorified, divine perfection” before His earthly birth
is equally at odds with the Bible’s testimony about Jehovah our Most High God and Creator.
Quite frankly , the belief that Jehovah God at one time in heaven was only a immature person
who had’nt learned enough to even function as a God let alone be a Godhead member is very
disturbing ,but it’s an example of Mormon teaching about Him .
This leads to your last comment which concerned the question of whether each member of the
Godhead have always been God. Sadly, but your answer was a typical Mormon apologist
response and stands at odds to what the Bible testifies about our Creator as well as the
truth about God that early Mormon Missionaries once preached in their travels
spreading their gospel . So despite the claim to provide spiritual truth against the
misconceptions about the Godhead/Trinity , Mormon officials have succumbed to veering
farther away from the sound doctrine in the Bible.
Mike
It only stands at odds to how you interpret the Bible. When the Bible is translated and interpreted correctly the truth of all this is so obvious that I am often amazed at just how blind people can be to it.
The “Trinity” is a doctrine of devils, imagined and supported by men to confuse, and thus hold power, over others.
Jesus IS God the Father IS the Holy Spirit.
Deut 6:4″ “Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!” (Not three. Not three persons. Not three separate individuals, but ONE God.)
There is no way around it: There is no such thing in creation (and we know that all creation is a reflection of God’s character; Psalm 19) that suggests that God is “three persons.” Because if God is “three persons”, then either there are three gods (because a person is a separate, unique individual, as defined) or “God” is a fractured, confused being not worthy of worship.
Scripture testifies that neither is true.
Isaiah 9:6 “For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will [i]rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
[I][b]Eternal Father[/b][/I], Prince of Peace.”
Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who [f]is to come,[b] the Almighty.[/b]”
John 14:9 “He that has seen Me has seen the Father.”
They are, then, One and the Same.
I am not a Mormon, never have been, and have rejected Mormonism since childhood.
Shem
You say: “It only stands at odds to how you interpret the Bible. When the Bible is translated and interpreted correctly the truth of all this is so obvious that I am often amazed at just how blind people can be to it.”
This is contrary to the Word itself:
Luke 24:45 ” Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, ”
John 5:39 “You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,”
2 Peter 1:20 “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,”
Is it important that Scripture be translated correctly? Absolutely. But who does the interpretation? Only God. One can read the entire Bible front to back, many times over, and still not understand anything. Because it is only God who opens the mind to understand it. And without that, the Bible is a closed book of no meaning.
The best, most able, and most accurate translation and interpretation, will not only not be “so obvious”, but will still be meaningless words on a meaningless page, unless God grants the understanding. People are blind because God has not (yet) opened their eyes. Until that happens, nothing else will work.
Timber,
I was kind of surprised to find this thread still open for comments seeing as it is over
a year old etc . Be that as it may , I’ll comment on some of what you said .
Despite your accusation , the doctrine of the Trinity is not ” a doctrine of devils” .
I’m sorry you feel that way . You are confused . This is evident because you said :
” Jesus IS God the Father , IS the Holy Spirit ” . However , Jesus is not
God the Father , nor is He God the Holy Spirit —-He is the Son . That’s the Bible’s
testimony : One God eternally existing as three co-equal , co-eternal persons — Father
Son and Holy Spirit . One God , never three separate Gods .
Now , perhaps the next time this topic comes up you can make some comments , but I
can not keep back tracking this far in the past to address more about it on this
particular thread .
Jesus is the Son , He is not God the Father , nor is He God the Holy Spirit
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