The Mormon President of Ohio State University announced his retirement last week amidst controversy over his anti-Catholic remarks. Gordon Gee has a long history of “verbal gaffes,” but his recent comments about “those damn Catholics” apparently crossed the line. According to news reports,
“’The fathers are holy on Sunday, and they’re holy hell on the rest of the week,’ Gee said to laughter at the Dec. 5 meeting attended by Athletic Director Gene Smith, several other athletic department members, professors and students.
“’You just can’t trust those damn Catholics on a Thursday or a Friday, and so, literally, I can say that,’ said Gee, a Mormon.”
Dr. Gee later apologized for his comments, explaining that they were “a poor attempt at humor and entirely inappropriate.” Though he offended some people, Dr. Gee’s remarks were pretty tame as compared to the rhetoric against Catholicism pronounced by leaders of his church in the past. The following statements by Mormon Church leaders are quoted from Bill McKeever’s book, In Their Own Words.
“Secondly, it is objected that if the Church of Christ has not continued, then the gate of hell must have prevailed against her; and they refer us to that cheering passage in Matthew 16:18 which reads thus:—‘And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall riot prevail against it.’ They argue, that if the Church has ceased to exist, the gates of hell have prevailed over her and the promise of Jesus must be falsified. But we would inform the Catholics, that the Church of Christ has not ceased to exist, neither has Peter ceased his existence, but both the Church and Peter are in heaven, far out of the reach of the gates of hell, and far out of the reach of the abominable soul-destroying impositions of popery. The gates of hell have prevailed and will continue to prevail over the Catholic mother of harlots, and over all her Protestant daughters; but as for the apostolical Church of Christ, she rests secure in the mansion of eternal happiness, where she will remain until the apostate Catholic church, with all her popes and bishops, together with all her harlot daughters shall be hurled down to hell; then it shall be said, ‘Rejoice over her thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her;’ and then shall be ‘heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia: salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God; for true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.’ And again they shall say, ‘Alleluia,’ and her smoke shall rise up for ever and ever. And thus when the Catholics and Protestants hear all the heavens, and all the holy apostles and prophets, rejoicing over the downfall of Babylon, they will learn that the Church of Christ still exists in heaven and that the gates of hell have not prevailed against her; then they will learn where the apostolical and prophetical power rests; then they will perceive the difference between the glory of the Church of Christ and the misery and wretchedness of their own fiery torments” (Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, 1850, No.3, p. 44).
“Christianity, as it is known in the world today, has fallen far short of the accomplishment of what might have been expected of it. It has failed in establishing those principles which Christ taught among the children of men. The great Catholic division of the Christian world, the Catholic church, is a national liability to any country. It wields a great power over the minds and the hearts of the children of men, but it is a power for evil rather than for good. It brings countless thousands regularly to confession; it rarely brings a single man to repentance and the abandonment of his sins” (Mormon Apostle Hyrum M. Smith, Conference Reports, October 1916, p. 42).
“Catholicism – See Church of the Devil” (Mormon Seventy Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p. 108).
“The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of ‘the everlasting gospel.’ Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven” (Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, No.6, pp. 84-85. Brackets in original).
Yikes.
You know what im not hearing from Bill M? Scripture reference and reason for his accusations against those churches. Lots of words but nothing to back it up. Plus its pretty cruel to rejoice in people going to hell. Wait a sec….did I just readthey would be thrown into fire? Maybe im wrong but I didnt this it was LDS doctrine that hell included fire. I thought it was outer darkness…seperation from God. Ok guess you learn something new everyday right?
cattyjane, Bill McKeever is not making those accusations, those are quotes in a book by Bill quoting mormon leaders. In all fairness many of the foundational Protestant confessions use pretty strong language regarding Catholicism especially pertaining to the pope and identifying the pope/the papacy as the anti-Christ.
@arthur,
Sorry, thats what I meant is that those quotes in his book by those leaders dont give reasons why they claim all catholics are going to hell. I guess if someone is going to tell me why a certain belief system is wrong then I want to hear reasoning behind it. Did that make more sense how I said it that time?
I’ll agree with Arthur in that many people have died as a result of Catholic/Protestant conflict. There was no love lost between the two for centuries.
But I also think Catty brings up a good point in that the language from the LDS leaders seems contrary, doctrinally, to where Catholics will end up.
Just thinking aloud now, but I wonder if the leaders just shoot from the hip without considering the broader context of LDS theology. In other words, they speak as men.
MJP,
Thanks! Thats what I was trying to say! 🙂
Arthur,
Where have you been? I’ve missed your posts. I think it would be good for you to give a little bit about your testimony since we have a lot of former Mormons here who are probably unfamiliar with your story. I remember you writing that, “When I went down on my knees I was a Mormon and when I got up I was a Christian.” What have you been up to?
OK you guys what do you think?
Can the falcon claim persecution status based on what these Mormons have said about Catholics……..it’s not just the Church they are attacking. I know I’ve been a lapsed Catholic for 46 years but there’s a part if me that still “feels” Catholic. So I’m going to pull out all of the Mormon persecution complex language and apply it to myself.
Incidentally, the Catholic Church probably has some of the greatest scholars when it comes to the history and theology of the primitive Christian Church. I must admit to dialing in the Catholic channel occasionally if I see that they’re having one of these guys on a particular program.
Mormons aren’t even pretenders when it comes to a topic like early Church history. And really if Mormons are interested in spiritual manifestations, the Catholics have a long history and tradition of such things.
They beat the snot out of Joseph Smith and his home boys when it comes to such things.
Hey falcon
I haven’t been blogging much about mormonism lately, others are doing a better job of it so I have been looking at other issues. For those who are interested here is my testimony of being saved out of mormonism: http://thesidos.blogspot.com/2008/02/our-journey-out-of-mormonism-saved-by.html
I agree that these comments by Mr Gee were rather tame compared to what some Mormon
leaders have said about non-Mormons in the recent past . Some in other religion /denominations
have engaged in saying terrible things about those with whom they disagree . Such behavior
is’nt necessary . In my experience when I first read that Mormon leaders classified my
church as constituting part of what is the Church of the Devil today, that I then firmly
rejected that notion and commenced to firmly argue against it. When speaking with Mormons
I never said you’re “bashing” my religion , or “you’re trying to tear down my faith/religion ” .
I figured Mormon leaders just another false prophet ranting against . But with some Mormons
I dialogued with it was’nt long before these type of comments were used by them towards me.
I came to realize that that most Mormons do have kind of a “persecution complex ” . Mormons
hear of why their leaders came west , and in Utah celebrations and reminders occur every year
in July . Most Mormons know of their heritage , of how they’ve always been ” misunderstood ”
and therefore maligned , and so have more of a ” us vrs them ” mentality than others.
In my opinion having a ministry like MRM which seeks to warn the Mormon people of the
spiritual danger of following false prophets , and perhaps even more so to inform the non
Mormon as to what Mormonism has taught about important issues , is going to have Mormons
resort to saying ” why are you bashing our religion ” type accusations on a regular basis .
The vast majority of Mormons are a decent people who are striving to serve God , but were
detoured into false doctrine by men who mimicked the claims of Jesus’ apostles . According
to the Bible that can cause sincere people to incur consequences that are extremely dangerous
spiritually . Our hearts therefore go out to the Mormon people who need to be alerted .
This can be done with 1 Peter 3 :15 in mind .
Arthur,
What was interesting was I looked under the “comments” section after reading your testimony and guess who had the first comment? Yes indeed it was the old falcon. I wonder how long ago that was. I noticed that Sharon had commented also at the time. It was kind of like a little reunion seeing it all again.
I would recommend reading your testimony for all of the regular posters here and also the lurkers. Man, what a miracle God did in your life. The way the Lord called me has always been a source of wonder to me also. Why did he even bother with me? But I’ll take it and praise His Holy Name and rejoice that he took an unfit sinner like me and drew (me) to Himself.
Money can’t buy you everything, least of all good manners. This was an individual’s bigotry, pure and simple – from a guy who had a long history of it. Good riddance. Hopefully, they cut the next guy’s salary and spend it on the people the school is there to help get educations.
I didn’t know Gee was Mormon until this article. Goes to show that they, Mormons, are not really that different from the rest of us. We are all sinners and in need of a savior.
I just had to copy/paste this from Arthur’s testimony, which he linked to above, because it had a profound effect on me. Made me want to cry actually and being a macho man that’s quite an admission.
“One afternoon, after reading I knelt down to pray. I never imagined what would happen after my knees hit the ground.”
“It was very sudden. I knelt down as a mormon, and when I stood up I no longer was. It wasn’t because I was offended by someone in the church. It wasn’t because I had an un-confessed sin in my life. It wasn’t because I had fallen under the influence of apostates or read anti-mormon material. I can only attribute it to God breaking my heart, breaking the pride that made me think that I could be saved through my own righteousness, that by obedience and works I could become like God Himself, either dragging Him down to me or lifting myself to His level. Semantics in mormonism suggest that we never become the equal of our Heavenly Father, but the reality is that mormonism teaches that God was once a human, no different than us, and that He became a god and by following the tenets of mormonism we could do the same and become like Him. I was not looking to get out, I was not seeking Him. He came seeking me. The Great Shepherd who searches for one lost sheep found one, kneeling down next to his bed in Kentucky, worshipping the image of a false god. If there was ever a more unlikely candidate to be saved than me, I can’t imagine who that person might be.”
How does something like this happen? Arthur wasn’t even looking to get out of Mormonism. He certainly wasn’t looking to “join” another church. This was a God to man miracle….BOOM!! He recognized who God is and He wasn’t who Mormonism teaches He is.
Here’s how Jim Spencer describes what happened to him:
“I was negotiating a turn out of Sugar City that I called the Sugar City Curve-an S-shaped curve made up of two ninety-degree turns, a hard right followed by a hard left. It takes about sixty seconds to make the transit. On the Sugar City Curve, the miracle took place.
I entered the curve a self-centered intellectual failure who, after ten years on a treadmill of religious performance, was about as far from knowing God as I had been when I joined the Mormon Church. I was sick of myself. Sick of religion. Sick of life………So as I drove, I prayed. “God,” I said, “where are You? Where an I going? What am I supposed to do?”
“Well, Jim, came the response, let’s start at the beginning. The problem is, you are doing things your own way. You say you want to find Me. O.K., here’s how to do it. Turn your life over to Me…………Suddenly something snapped within me. Without understanding it, somehow I gave in. I gave up. I believed God was asking me to give Him my life, as if it had some value. I believed God was accepting me. I believed in His power to heal my life. I believed in Him………I had no idea of the full implications of the talk I had with God that day. It would take weeks for me to recognize the deep significance of those sixty seconds when I said yes to Him on the Sugar City Curve.”
Jim also says that he thought, “I must be crazy! I’m having a two-way conversation in my head.” There’s the beauty of the Spirit of God. Jim wasn’t even sure, after all those years in Mormonism, how to pray. As Jim reached out, God answered. Jim describes his prayer experience and looking for an answer, “…..To my amazement, I received one, not in an audible voice, but one that was nonetheless real. As a rational person, I knew it was a rational experience. I sensed I was actually communicating with God.
I would say to you lurkers, God has brought you here at this time and place to come to know Him in a personal way and who He really is. You too can have a personal relationship with God through His Son Jesus Christ. No more religious hoops to jump through. Just the grace of God extended to you as you place your faith in Jesus Christ.
I’m one of the lurkers Falcon was talking about, albeit a Christian one who is very thankful to have found this site after being engaged in conversations about faith with a Mormon friend. I just wanted to thank you all for your faithfulness in addressing these issues, and especially for the encouragement I’ve found reading about the experiences of those who have seen God’s hand in their lives bringing them out of Mormonism. Your stories and comments have given me a lot of confidence in speaking with my Mormon friends, as well as increased faith in the God who wants all us to come to the knowledge of Himself.
Bloom, welcome .
Bloom,
Good to have you. Can’t get enough Christian posters.
This is a great place to learn and to contribute to the Great Commission Jesus gave us. The good news is that Mormons are leaving the LDS church in record numbers. The bad news is that Mormonism has soured them on God and religion. What I hope to convey is that a relationship with Jesus is not encapsulated in a religion. That’s pretty tough for some Mormons to understand since they’ve been conditioned to believe that they need a prophet and that there is such a thing as a “one true church”.
BTW I’m all for prophets as outlined in the Book of Ephesians and First Corinthians chapters 12 & 14. But this is a Gift of the Holy Spirit, is guided by Scripture and is subject to the authority structure and guidelines outlined in the Bible.
A prophet doesn’t come up with new doctrine. There are ample examples in the Book of Acts demonstrating how all of this works.
Now others here might differ on how I approach this but they’re wrong! THAT’S A JOKE!
Welcome and please stick around.
Falcon,
That was an amazing point that you just made about how the true Prophets did not create new doctrine. I never thought of that before!
Bloom,
Welcome, and do stick around.
The first rule of Mormon Coffee is, you do not talk about Mormon Coffee.
The second rule rule of Mormon Coffee is, you DO NOT talk about Mormon Coffee!
Or, was that a movie? Wait, do we even have rules here?
cattyjane,
I don’t know if the guys quoted above ranting about the Catholic Church are considered “prophets” but Mormons certainly do listen to their leaders and there’s a great deal of discussion, especially in latter generations, if they were just giving their “opinion” or practicing “folk doctrine”. There certainly was a lot of opinion giving in the LDS church and unfortunately for present day Mormons, they are stuck defending it.
Mormons are really off the beam when it comes to this idea of a “prophet” in their church. First of all, what they claim does not stand up to what the NT tells us about prophets and prophecy and the role/function in the church. The NT teaches us clearly. The problem is that the LDS church doesn’t follow the NT instruction and just goes with whatever some guy they say is a prophet says.
First of all a fun fact. Did you know that the NT identifies women as having the gift of prophecy and the role of prophetess? Acts 21:8-9 gives us a clear indication that there was no distinguishing between men and women regarding this role.
First Corinthians 14:3 says that prophecy is for edification, exhortation and consolation. About the exercise of this gift the Bible tells us, “And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.” (First Corinthians 14:29)
Anyway the NT is full of instruction and it’s meant to be followed. The Mormon concept of “the prophet” is their own invention as is typical of cults.
I don’t apologize for using that word “cult” because it’s rightly applied to groups such as Mormonism as it’s structured and practiced by the SLC sect.
grindael,
I am going to nominate you to write a book that contains the most inane, stupid, ridiculous things said by Mormon prophets or leaders. As I thought about this it became apparent to me that we’d have to write several books and categorize them according to topic.
Actually every article that’s posted on MC produces lists of such comments. I keep wondering, “Why do people follow these fools?”
Bruce McConkie and Brigham Young are Mormon all-stars when it comes to stupidity. Here’s cousin Brucie on our current topic:
“It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this ‘church which is the most abominable above all other churches’ in vision. He ‘saw the devil that he was the foundation of it’ and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization. (1 Nephi 13:1-10)”
– Mormon Doctrine, p. 130 (1958)
Literally a harlot is a prostitute; figuratively it is any apostate church. Nephi, speaking of harlots in the literal sense and while giving a prophetic description of the Catholic Church, recorded that he ‘saw the devil that he was the foundation of it.’ … Then speaking of harlots in the figurative sense, he designated the Catholic Church as ‘the mother of harlots’ (1 Nephi 13:34; 14:15-17), a title which means that the protestant churches, the harlot daughters which broke off from the great and abominable church, would themselves be apostate churches.”
– Mormon Doctrine, pp. 314-315 (1958)
Actually McConkie did say one thing that I agree with totally. Just apply what he said to Mormonism.
“True worshippers worship the true God according to true principles. There is no salvation in worshipping a false god or in believing a false doctrine. All such worship is in vain. It has no saving virtue or power.”
– Bruce R. McConkie, “The Teacher’s Divine Commission,” Ensign, Apr. 1979, Page 21
Preach it Brucie! I couldn’t have said it better. The sooner Mormons realize that the god of Mormonism is not the God of the Bible the sooner they will free themselves from the bondage that such religious sects bring.
Falcon,
Are you suggesting that when Bruce Mc said, “There is no salvation in worshipping a false god or in believing a false doctrine,” that he was calling the orthodox Jesus “a false god” and orthodox doctrine “a false doctrine”? It appears as though all the Mormons I know who claim that we all serve the same Jesus and are all Christian are severely out of step with this LDS Apostle.
MT,
What a great take on this. I never thought about that. Five stars ***** out of five for you.
What he’s doing of course is taking a shot at Christianity and saying that we worship a false god. Gordon B. Hinckley said that the Jesus/God of traditional Christianity isn’t the god of Mormonism. So given that, how can Mormons possibly think that we serve the same God/Jesus.
Here’s what Gordon the Great said:
“In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'” (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).
GBH was a fool but at least he was honest in this respect that the Mormon God is not the God of Christianity.
Falcon,
It’s all about “forget the past” with these guys. For example, Susan Curtis writes,
Of course, Mormon “prophets” elaborated on this and told us that this is exactly what the Book of Mormon is talking about. The quotes are numerous. Let’s start with Orson Pratt, who wrote this treatise denigrating the Bible and everyone associated with it:
And,
This, of course was the same take that his brother Parley had about the Catholics and Protestants. But Parley took it a step further and actually prophesied a timeline for these events, saying that they must take place before 1888 (50 years from 1838) or the Book of Mormon was false. Now… of course, the Mormons are fast friends with the Catholics. (Or trying to be). There is no continuity in Mormonism. Of course, they got this from Jo, who said that Christ would return by 1890-91. And of course Jo was just continuing the Protestant tradition of calling the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon, (which many did in the 19th Century). To separate himself from them, Jo said he had an authoritative “vision” and a “restoration” of “priesthood” and “keys”. But it’s the same line of reasoning, that the Catholics were only steeped in tradition, and that they had corrupted the Church and manipulated the cannon of the Bible to reflect their views.
Here is Parley in 1855, extolling the followers of Mohamed, and how great it is to take people slaves and make them conform to their religion before setting them free:
Here is Pratt again,
Where are the “new books” of the Bible coming from Mormonism today? Nowhere to be found. No more “revelations”. They have had two changes in doctrine, but nothing other than that in over a 100 years. From this, we must conclude that there is no more inspiration left in Mormonism.
grindael,
This was really good!
So is this taught in the LDS churches today? I mean this is foundational stuff. It’s the whole premise for Mormonism and it’s aimed right at the Catholic Church. If Mormonism won’t teach its foundational premise, what’s the point of Mormonism?
It’s pretty clear that these Mormon leaders didn’t think much of the Bible. Is it any wonder that this cult is having to whitewash its history and the writings of these brain dead prophets?
Thanks for posting this. It was a real eye opener!
Well, I’m heading to Nauvoo today. I dreamed about witnessing to Mormons last night. It was quite a dream. God reminded me that He has prepared me for divine appointments before hand. I was reminded just to listen and answer with very simple, sort of “I wonder…..” type questions. I don’t really feel any pressure to go into full-on apologetic mode.
Perhaps I’ll give some updates during my visit. I’d appreciate your prayers as I know that the battle is spiritual and takes place in the heavenlies.
Falcon, I’ll be praying for your traveling safety and that God will use you to touch lives for
Him . May you have a great time .
Godspeed, falcon. I just said a prayer for your Nauvoo visit. If I remember, then I will continue to support you in that way. Please send us updates if you have time!
MJP
You said “But I also think Catty brings up a good point in that the language from the LDS leaders seems contrary, doctrinally, to where Catholics will end up.”
Not really, when you understand what these men are saying and what the doctrine is.
First of all, the quotes do not speak to individual members, but to the organization, and to those who have sought power through it. Those who knowingly teach false doctrine to secure power are those to “loveth and maketh a lie” (Revelation 22: 15; D&C 63: 17) which shall be cast into everlasting burning, which torment they will endure for the thousand years of the millennium.
Eventually all false churches will be thrown down and all those that knowingly built them up to get gain in this life will be cast into Hell. However, in the first quote Orson Pratt actually does say that the membership will come to realize the truth, and thus indicates that they will not suffer the same punishment.
Catty
Here are the references.
Revelation 17: 2
Revelation 18: 3, 20
Revelation 19: 1, 3
These verses are the ones actually quoted by these men, though chapters 17 and 18 are all relevant.
Shem,
“Those who knowingly teach false doctrine to secure power are those to “loveth and maketh a lie” (Revelation 22: 15; D&C 63: 17) which shall be cast into everlasting burning, which torment they will endure for the thousand years of the millennium.
Eventually all false churches will be thrown down and all those that knowingly built them up to get gain in this life will be cast into Hell.”
How does this not include anyone who “teaches”? We all teach, at least we all should teach. Its called the Great Commission. And if all false churches are to be thrown down, that means all who do not believe in Mormonism will be thrown down. A church is much more than a building, friend. A church is the body of believers.
So, perhaps in your view, the church is an organization and not a group of members, but to the rest of us it is very different. If, however, your view is that a church is the body of believers, you cannot seriously consider your interpretation as true and still believe that only a few will be thrown in the outer darkness. The two ideas cannot be reconciled.
And that, Shem, is a fact, unless you don’t take the meanings of words seriously nor what people tell you at face value. I am not hiding any meaning here. What I say is what I mean, so do not give me any other interpretation of what I have just told you. To remind you of what I mean, we all teach, and we are all the church. As a result, because we all teach and are all the church, we will all go to the outer darkness per YOUR own words, not even those of your leaders.
MJP
You said “because we all teach and are all the church, we will all go to the outer darkness per YOUR own words”
You seem to brag a lot about your understanding of words, and yet you almost always ignore the words that I use and seem to make something up from what it left.
I said “knowingly teach false doctrine to secure power”
So let us consider each word and see if what you claim is even remotely what I actually said.
Knowingly: This implies that the person has full knowledge not only of what they are teaching, but whether it is the truth or not. I am not including in this anyone who honestly believes the doctrine, but only those who know it is false and teach it anyway.
Teach: This implies not only gaining a basic understanding of the doctrine, but a persuasion as to its correctness. Thus I am not including those who simply outline doctrine without any intention of persuading faith (like my philosophy teacher).
False Doctrine: Ideas or concepts that are not true. Thus what one is teaching must be false. So this does not apply to one who teaches true doctrine.
Secure: To acquire and maintain something.
Power: The ability to act as well as to command others.
These two taken together indicate those who seek dominion of others as a means to appease their own appetites.
So, taking this all together, those members who teach a doctrine because they believe it to by true are not those who “loveth and maketh a lie” because a lie required purposeful desception, which is absent.
I am no judge, but in my experience I would estimate the vast majority of Christians, or of most any religion, honestly believe the doctrine that they teach and thus will not be condemned with those that I have just described.
As to what the church it, the term can refer to either the body of believers or to the formal organization that is built around that faith. Either form is a perfectly lagitimate use of the word. Generally I use the form that refers to the organization, and that is the most common form in the modern day. It is more common to use the word Religion or Faith when talking about the body of believers. This was also true in the time of the quotes given.
So, these men were speaking to the organizations that had been built around the body of believers. These false organizations and those who set them up, knowing that they false, will be thrown down and cast into Hell. However, those who were deceived and believed the doctrine and formed the body of believers within the organization will be brought to the truth without being cast out.
I hope you understand this. I would like to point out that if you are going to quote us than you should try to understand our words as we understand them, not as you do.
That ‘knowingly’ is a convenient word, Shem. Don’t you think?
And if its true that sincerity in the belief is not a problem, then virtually everyone is safe. But its interesting that not too long ago someone mentioned that many of your own leaders don’t believe the Mormon program. It also has come up quite a bit that many of your own members stay members not for the doctrine, but for the community.
These people are in trouble. And I wonder if I am in trouble myself, since I have been told what your doctrine is but reject it. Am I sincere in my belief or am I in trouble because I have been told what the ‘truth’ is but reject it?
Again, Shem, its not clear what it is you actually mean. Unfortunately, there is far too much that is vague in your faith and its defense that it ultimately must fall, unless you are willing to ignore all the problems. I simply refer you to the Adam/God discussion we have just had, but there are far more.
Its funny to hear you accuse me of understanding your faith before commenting on it or quoting it. You have very little idea what it is we believe, and you demonstrate this in this last post. The Christian church is the body of believers. Ask virtually any Christian who/what the true church is. They will answer that the church is not First Methodists Church, or St. John’s Catholic Church, or Sunnyside Baptist Church, or any other individual church. (Sure, you can find people who will answer that it is the only organization, but I have heard far too many people from a far to wide a variety of ‘churches’ define the term church as the body of believers, ie all those who believe in the true Christ.
So, when you say that you use the church in a given way, you have to be careful of understanding what it is we mean by the word church. You also need to know that us Christians believe we can all teach, proselytize, secure, etc. what is, in your eyes, a false doctrine. And when they are provided information about your LDS organization, that raises questions about knowledge of our doctrine being ‘false’.
So, while you accuse me of carelessly using words, you yourself show a great amount of carelessness in your words. Our discussion of the word “fact” is a great example. Under your definition, nothing can ever be pinned down as a fact, so a discussion about ultimate truths, which requires pinning things down such as facts, is impossible. You cannot ever be proven wrong if that is the case. You can always argue yourself out of it.
I really don’t expect you to understand/believe what it is I am saying. But it is true, nonetheless. I am very happy to get into detail about my faith, and I will walk you through any thing you do not understand. I won’t try to convince you of anything, but I am more than happy to help you through educating yourself on what it is I believe.
I am open to the same from you, as believe it or not, I absolutely think fully understanding other faiths is important. But I must say, it annoys me that Mormons love to play the victim concerning how no one understands their faith when they really do not understand ours.
Let me know if you are interested in exchanging emails or something about my proposal.
MJP
“That ‘knowingly’ is a convenient word, Shem. Don’t you think?”
Of course it is. That is why I used it. A person who carefully considers their words will find many convenient ones to assist them in conveying their ideas and thoughts to others. I am not always as careful as I should be, but when I use a word I generally do so deliberately and for a reason.
“And if it’s true that sincerity in the belief is not a problem, then virtually everyone is safe.”
If you mean safe from Hell Fire, then yes. We have never believed that the majority of mankind is condemned. I am sure you are familiar with our belief in the three degrees of glory. Did you also know that it is taught that only those condemned to the Telestial Glory will be destroyed at the second coming. Those who are of the Terrestrial will remain on the earth with those of the Celestial.
“It also has come up quite a bit that many of your own members stay members not for the doctrine, but for the community.”
I agree, and these people are living a Terrestrial Life and will not can the Celestial glory. That does not make them one that “Loveth and Maketh a Lie” as far as I understand it.
“And I wonder if I am in trouble myself, since I have been told what your doctrine is but reject it.”
It would depend on what you mean by trouble. Are you in danger of suffering hell fire and eternal torment? I seriously doubt it. But I would say you are in danger of missing out on the choicest blessings and promised of God, and I would call that trouble.
“it’s not clear what it is you actually mean.”
Maybe you should ask more direct questions, as I am not sure how I could make it any clearer.
“You have very little idea what it is we believe”
The Difference here is that I never claimed to have an understanding of your faith. I have never once made a single statement as to my knowledge base concerning the doctrine that you espouse.
Now, I honestly have to say that I don’t get much of such claims from you, though most others here say it almost every day.
“Ask virtually any Christian who/what the true church is.”
I am not talking about what your doctrine is concerning the identity of the true church. I am talking about common usage of the actual word church. The most common use is that of the organization, not the doctrine you are talking about. You say ask a Christian what the true church is. I say, as a Christian what church they attend, or what their church teaches. I bet you the most common response will be to identify the organization with which they identify themselves and to tell what that organization holds as its doctrine. Why is this? Because it is assumed that this is what you meant when you asked about their church, as it is the most common way to use the word in the modern day.
“you have to be careful of understanding what it is we mean by the word church.”
I have no problem with this, as long as you also try to understand what we mean by the words we use.
“Under your definition, nothing can ever be pinned down as a fact, so a discussion about ultimate truths, which requires pinning things down such as facts, is impossible.”
You know this is a misrepresentation of what I said, so why do you keep repeating it. It is very possible to pin things down and discuss ultimate truth. I have never said otherwise. I only said that a discussion of fact and a discussion of truth are not always the same thing.
You know, if you want me to understand how you use the word church, it might be nice if you tried to understand how I use the words fact and truth.
“it annoys me that Mormons love to play the victim concerning how no one understands their faith when they really do not understand ours.”
I think you will find that the claim is only common among such crowds as this. I don’t mind people not understanding our faith, as long as they are honest enough to admit they don’t. It is when they claim understanding, and then try to teach falsely concerning us that I have a complaint.
I’ll get back to you on the e-mail.
MJP
By the way, D&C 76: 98-105 describes those in the Telestial Glory. Read carefully verse 102
“Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.”