Everyone has a heavenly father. Which one do you have? There are two.
One tells you who are here to be tested, the other tells you who are here to love and be loved.
One encourages you to eat of the forbidden fruit, the other encourages you to wait and trust.
One is the “god of this world,” the other gathers a family for himself by adoption through his Only Begotten.
One tells you to hide from your history, the other tells you to own up to it and trust God for healing and forgiveness.
One tells you to get a temple recommend, the other tells you that Jesus IS your temple recommend.
One tells you to go through “priesthood authority,” the other tells you to boldly approach the throne of grace.
One tells you to pursue godhood, the other tells you to pursue humility and enjoyment of God alone.
One tells you to try filling up your cup before you arrive, the other tells you to empty your cup so he can fill it to an overflow.
One tells you to revile the lost sheep (apostates), the other tells you to pursue and understand them with love.
One tells you to sing “Praise to the Man,” the other tells you to praise the Son of Man.
One says that men become Gods, the other says that God became a man — because he loves you.
Yes, everyone has a heavenly father. But there are two heavenly fathers.
One problem I see with Shem and his view of God and Mormons believe in many Gods is this.
Here is what the Bible says,
If their is even one god that came alone before God, or if the Mormon god has a father god or how ever you view it, then how can God claim, their was no one greater than Him, so since he could not swear by anyone greater, He swore by Himself. That verse will some how be tortured by Shem to claim God could not swear by any other god that is lower than himself or something stupid.
Old Man
“your salvation is still dependant on what YOU can do.”
You need to amend your statement again. My salvation is not dependent on what I can do, but on what I actually do. If it was the ability that mattered we would all be lost, because none of us have the ability to do what is needed for salvation.
However, Christ does have that ability, and he gives us his power, and then, through his grace, we do what is needed. When we have done what is needed we will be saved, but it is not us doing what we can do, but doing what God gives us the ability to do.
Again, you need to get these things right. I have never denied the need for our personal actions and choices, but that is and always will be coupled with the power of God that is given to those with Faith. When all three work together salvation is made possible. If any one of them is missing salvation is lost.
Now, on this point you are frequently wrong, and yes, I have always been right. I have not, to my knowledge, made an error when explaining the workings of Grace and the need of works. I have made errors on other points, but not on this one.
MJP
“Am I understanding you right, Shem? If so, it seems we should be focused on those principles rather than on God.”
Your basic sentence was right, but your question only proves that you didn’t read the rest of what I said, or you forgot or ignored it. Go back, study what I said, and you will have the answer to this question.
Rick
“then how can God claim, there was no one greater than Him”
Primacy does not prove something is greater. In other words, just because something came first does not mean that what came later is not equal to or greater than it. God swore by himself because there is none greater, and this includes all those that came before. Simple isn’t it.
Shem, you did exactly as I said you would. I guess I can be a mormon prophet.
Um, Shem, my question remains: what’s more important, God or the principles upon which he became ‘ultimate’?
I also notice you state that your father had the ultimate authority over you. This is not true. If you had stolen something from a store, the state would have authority over you, and there is nothing dad could do about it. If you get in trouble at school, dad has little authority over you while at school, and cannot overrule certain consequences that rightfully would be administered not by dad but by the school. Dad, therefore, can be overruled in a number of situations. Sure, he can administer his own punishments, but he can do nothing to stop your time in jail or suspended from school. Dads are limited in authority.
Either way, you are arguing that God does not hold all authority. By necessity, God is dependent upon something else for his authority, shared, achievable by others, or any other measure.
Do you understand that we as Christians believe God to be above all else in every conceivable way? He is not dependent upon anything else for His authority and power. Unlike my father, he can absolve me of my breaking the law. In fact, that is precisely what he does.
Shem
“you need to amend your statement again. My salvation is not dependent on what I can do, but on what I actually do.”
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Christ has done it all for you & the only thing asked of you is that you believe. John 3:16 It appears to me that what I said went completely over your head, why do you think I used upper case every time I said ‘you’ It was to emphasise the fact that no matter what you say about Grace it still comes back to what YOU do & that my friend is known as pride. You can say as often as you like that Gods Grace gives you the ability to do this or to do that but you’re completely missing the point. Do it on your own or do it with some supposedly God given ability, it still comes down to YOU & that is the very antithesis of Grace.
This is how the LDS defines Grace
“Grace is divine help and strength that we receive through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Through grace, we are saved from sin and death. In addition, grace is an enabling power that strengthens us from day to day and helps us endure to the end. Effort is required on our part to receive the fullness of the Lord’s grace.”
This is the Christian definition of Grace
“the love and mercy shown to us by God because God desires it, not because of anything we have done to earn it” Rather different isn’t it?
We receive Gods Grace because we have become NEW CREATIONS in Christ. Remember the verse I gave you yesterday, the one you completely ignored?
2 Corinthians 3:17
“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.”
Have you become a new creation or are you staying with the old, with the laws & the ordinances? Until you come to understand that NOTHING is required from YOU then you do not know Grace
You said
“Again, you need to get these things right. I have never denied the need for our personal actions and choices, but that is and always will be coupled with the power of God that is given to those with Faith. When all three work together salvation is made possible. If any one of them is missing salvation is lost.”
After reading that I can only assume that you have never read John 10:27-29
“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall NEVER perish, neither shall anyone pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”
You can break your communion with God but not your spiritual union. If a person truly believes and follows Christ, they are part of the body of Christ, the one true Church. I somehow doubt you know anything about that.
You said
“Now, on this point you are frequently wrong, and yes, I have always been right. I have not, to my knowledge, made an error when explaining the workings of Grace and the need of works.”
Well, you said “the need of works” so you have just made an error. Works to you is something that has to be done to show your faith & that comes from a faulty understanding of James. The combination of faith & works do NOT bring salvation, that comes by faith alone. Good works are the natural result of becoming a new creation in Christ (2 Corinthians 3:17) & have nothing at all to do with salvation.
From the LDS perspective Grace has ceased to be a free gift from God it has instead become something that can be utilised to do the things that YOU believe need to be done in order to show that YOU are worthy of salvation. As I said previously, it’s all about YOU.
Before you protest, I’m not talking of you on a personal level, I’m talking about all individuals who think they have to prove themselves worthy, after all, personal worthiness plays a huge role in the LDS.
Maybe that’s one of the biggest differences between Christians & Mormons. Christians know they can never be good enough whereas Mormons believe they have to at least try to be good enough & that basically makes the LDS a works oriented religion rather than a Christian faith.
On the two occasions that I said 2 Corinthians 3:17 it should of course have read 2 Corinthians 5:17
Apologies for any confusion, it is the early hours of the morning & I’m rather tired. 🙂
Oldman,
Shem clearly show how ignorant he is of Scripture, and shows he does not care what we say. Along the issue of Grace, you mentioned John 3:16.
I have said to Shem on this issue many times that we read in the gospel of John chapter 6, the religious leaders go to Jesus, and we can switch out religious leaders for the Mormon Prophets.
The Mormon prophets went to Jesus and said, what Work(S) MUST WE DO.
Notice they asked about Works (Plural) More than one work Shem. Notice the letter (S).
BUT, Jesus said to Mormon prophets.
Jesus said their is only one work, Singular Shem.
But we know, you will tell us why Jesus was wrong and you think Jesus lied. Seems to me if works play any part in saving Us, Jesus had the perfect time to reply to the Mormon prophets right their, but no, He said it was ONE WORK, And that is simply to BELIEVE UPON HIM (JESUS).
Now the Bible also tells us, that we are not saved by works lest we should boast, but we know Shem wants to be like JS and Boast he has done more than Jesus, and tell Jesus to move over and let Shem take His place. Shem Dont forget, The sin of the Devil that got him throw out of heaven was pride. Seems your just like your father, full of pride.
Once again, Shem directly contradicts Mormon Doctrine. From lds.org (overseen by the First Presidency, therefore doctrine according to him):
Shem is also trying to pull a fast one. Let’s get something clear here, Salvation vs. exaltation:
The “general salvation” comes because of the atonement of Christ. That means that if you do nothing at all, you are still “saved” and “resurrected”. You can murder people and still be “saved” in the “telestial kingdom”, which according to Jo Smith is so awesome that it makes this place look horrible. That is Mormon “salvation”.
Spencer Kimball wrote,
Harold B. Lee said in Conference,
The Bruce said,
Kimball again,
lds.org,
No matter how you slice it, Shem doesn’t teach Mormon Doctrine, he teaches the doctrine of Shem from the bubble, which has nothing to do with Mormonism.
IN MORMONISM GRACE = A RESURRECTION. THAT IS ALL. End of story folks.
MJP
“my question remains: what’s more important, God or the principles upon which he became ‘ultimate’?”
The question only stands if you ignore what I told Spartacus, and that is my point. Let me refresh your memory.
In the operation of a gun, what is the most important thing – the mechanics and chemical reactions that force the bullet from the barrel, or the person who pulls the trigger?
The obvious answer is the person, because without them the mechanics and chemical reactions would never take place. It is the same with God and eternal principles. The principle of actions is meaningless unless there is an intelligent being that can operate according to that principle. What is more important is the one that makes the principle function and matter. What is the sense in worshiping something that has no power, no knowledge, and no glory? We worship God because he has all of these things in their most perfect form, and we acknowledge that he gained these things because of certain principles that simply exist that make these things possible.
“Do you understand that we as Christians believe God to be above all else in every conceivable way?”
Yes, I understand this, and as I said it is a logical impossibility.
Old Man
I know what you believe. My point is that you have not yet gotten our doctrine accurate, and so everything you are saying about us becomes inaccurate as it draws on your inaccurate understanding of our doctrine.
Let me see if I can make it simple for you.
Everything we do and believe is centered in Christ; every action we perform is (or should be) for the glory of the Father and the Son. In others words, for us it is all about Christ and we acknowledge that nothing we do that is of any lasting importance is because of us or our ability, but because of the Grace of God working in us.
On the other hand, everything that God does is centered in us and is for our glory. In other words, for Him it is all about us and he acknowledges our efforts as well as our failures.
You understand this?
“Have you become a new creation or are you staying with the old, with the laws & the ordinances?”
Yes I have, and I continue to become new with each day as I progress to ever greater perfection through the power of Grace.
“You can break your communion with God but not your spiritual union. If a person truly believes and follows Christ, they are part of the body of Christ, the one true Church.”
I can only assume you have never read Hebrews 6: 4-6
“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
Clearly it is possible for one have had faith, been a member of the true church, and then to fall away and loose that union with God.
I have read every verse contained in the Bible multiple times, and that is how I know the truth, and why I believe what I believe.
Rick
“But we know, you will tell us why Jesus was wrong and you think Jesus lied.”
You know, it is just like you to twist and vilify my words in your petty attempts to discredit me. Your lying is also not new, nor your ridicule or mockery. It might help your own credibility if you would be honest, at least once in a while.
Of course that won’t matter to much to most people who post here, as the majority of them engage in the same tactics, so you will likely be praised for it by them.
Just so that others here know the truth, I have never once said that Jesus was wrong nor have I accused him of lying. I have pointed out where I believe people have misunderstood his meaning, but that is hardly the same thing.
In general I try to avoid Grindael, but I feel I have to say a few words regarding his comments, just to point out his ignorance and his blatant lies regarding the doctrine of the LDS church.
First he claims that my statement that “none of us have the ability to do what is needed for salvation” is wrong. In this attempt he gives one quote in which he very deliberately makes bold only that part that gives the appearance that what I said was incorrect, thus trying to mislead the reader from the true message. However, if we read the entire quote we see that Grindael is the once that is wrong.
It states very clearly that “No commandment was ever given to us but that God has given us the power to keep that commandment.” It also states that “because God endows His servants, from the President of the Church down to the humblest member, with all the ability, all the knowledge, all the power that is necessary, faithfully, diligently, and properly to discharge every duty and every obligation that rests upon them” we can fulfill those duties.
So, take note that it is through the power of God, which he gives to us, that we are thus enabled to do what is required of us. Also note that I stated very clearly that “[Christ] gives us his power, and then, through his grace, we do what is needed.” Notice here that what I said and what Grindael quoted are the exact same message, just in different words.
Regarding the rest of what he said, he clearly has to concept of our doctrine regarding salvation and here tries to libel me in my intentions because I use that term.
He also makes this statement “IN MORMONISM GRACE = A RESURRECTION. THAT IS ALL. End of story folks.”
He thus ignores almost all of the doctrine of Grace.
From LDS.org we read “The word grace, as used in the scriptures, refers primarily to enabling power and spiritual healing offered through the mercy and love of Jesus Christ.”
Also “No one can return to the presence of God without divine grace.”
In describing this enabling power it states “The grace of God helps us every day. It strengthens us to do good works we could not do on our own. The Lord promised that if we humble ourselves before Him and have faith in Him, His grace will help us overcome all our personal weaknesses (see Ether 12:27).”
http://www.lds.org/topics/grace?lang=eng
So grace, despite what Grindael tries to claim, is far greater than just physical resurrection. While that is one thing we get from the grace of God, it is not the only thing.
Grindael has once again shown his willingness to pick and choose quotes to suit his desire to misrepresent the doctrine of the LDS church.
Shem is being very deceptive here folks. He ignores his own “prophets”, like Wilford Woodruff, who said,
The rest of what Shem quotes, is only PART of the Mormon “formula”. Yes no one can be “saved” in Mormonism without Grace, but it only gets you a resurrection. It DOES NOT get you exaltation. Shem conveniently forgets (time after time) to mention or address this. Yes, God supposedly gives Mormons the “ability” to keep all the commandments. But if they could, then why does he NEED to command them to not eat, drink, etc. As Joe said,
Why do Mormons need to be commanded to pay tithing, live the word of wisdom, marry, etc. Shem? If Jesus Grace is enough, why? Because YOU and all those who believe in Mormonism have totally ignored the doctrine of Grace which is NOT to be COMMANDED or live by REGULATIONS, but by the SPIRIT.
Sticks and stones… Shem. Sticks and stones. LOL. I did not misrepresent you, you are just still trapped in your bubble of denial.
This is the pot calling the kettle black. Sheesh. Dishonesty is the stock and trade of those (like Shem) trapped in the Mormon Bubble of denial and who wouldn’t know what Mormon Doctrine is if came up and smacked them on the side of the head. Shem is the last person anyone should believe, because he is full of falsehoods. Shame, really. But this is what Mormonism breeds.
Shem, so God is dependent on the eternal principles, too. His efforts are worthless without them, such that he does not become a god. And just like a gun without the chemical and mechanical reactions to pulling the trigger, nothing happens without the eternal principles. God is merely a tool and holds no special place in and of himself. He just happens to be the one pulling the trigger. And since anyone can pull a trigger, it begs the question on the importance of the person pulling the trigger. The only importance is that the trigger is pulled: the reaction is the same regardless of who, or what, pulls it.
God being above all else in every conceivable manner is a logical impossibility? Do tell us more. He is God, after all…
I went to Shem’s link and it gave some speeches at the Bottom. This may help clarify how wrong Shem is,
MAY assist him? MAY? Wow. He is saying here THAT YOU MUST WORK FOR GRACE beyond a resurrection, cause that is all you get with Jesus Grace in Mormonism. Everything else YOU MUST DO WORKS FOR. Once again, it is obvious that Shem doesn’t know what he is talking about. So much for his lies about Grace.
While thinking about Shem’s comment that it is a logical impossibility that God is above all else in every conceivable manner, I realized how much more LDS view with human logic. I wonder what would happen if they let down their human logic and tried to view God through God’s logic. We can never see the world fully through God’s eyes, but we can at least appreciate that God does not work upon human terms. God works on God’s terms, and we cannot limit God based on what we think God’s terms should be.
Shem said
“My point is that you have not yet gotten our doctrine accurate, and so everything you are saying about us becomes inaccurate as it draws on your inaccurate understanding of our doctrine.”
My lack of understanding makes little difference because there is one thing I know that is absolutely true, LDS doctrines are works based. You can talk about Gods Grace till the cows come home but until you are prepared to abandon works i.e. the LDS laws & ordinances, you are not SOLELY dependant on Gods Grace. You are dependant on the very unchristian doctrine of Grace plus works.
I said this
“You can break your communion with God but not your spiritual union. If a person truly believes and follows Christ, they are part of the body of Christ, the one true Church.”
And in reply you said this
“I can only assume you have never read Hebrews 6: 4-6”
You have a very short memory. May I remind you that we had a long discussion concerning Hebrews 6 a little while ago, at that time I explained the meaning to you but now I must assume that you didn’t read it. For your benefit I’ll explain it once more &, in your own rather insulting words, ‘Let me see if I can make it simple for you.’
Understand the context, Paul was writing to Jewish converts some of whom wanted to retain certain of their old beliefs, Paul is warning them about the dangers of doing this. To understand what Paul is saying in verse 4 you need to read & understand what is being said in Hebrews 6:1-2 Why do you always leave out those verses that clarify the meaning? Paul is warning them that if they go back to Judaism, all the religious “repentance” in the world will do them no good. This is made clear by his use of the phrase “since THEY CRUCIFY AGAIN for themselves the Son of God. If they then tried to repent in traditional Jewish ways such as animal sacrifice, they would be denying the atonement of Christ.
It might help you to know that Hebrews 6:1-6 has been described thus
“Satan knows Scripture, and this passage has rightly been called “one of the Devil’s favourite passages” for its ability to be taken out of context & its use in condemning struggling believers. Many have felt like giving up after hearing Satan “preach a sermon” on this text!”
Be very sure you’re not falling into the same trap.
MJP
I have already explained why, and you have simply chosen to ignore what I have said. I don’t feel like repeating myself at this time.
Now, I have heard the arguments about human logic verses God’s logic, and I just have to point out that logic is logic. There are two different forms of logic. It is simply the process of reasoning by which an understanding of concepts is made possible. God’s logic is the same as ours, he simply has a greater access and resource of knowledge and thus has a perfect ability to use logic. We, on the other hand, have a limited ability due to our mortal condition.
It was God who invited “Come, let us reason together,” and that is all I try to do.
Old Man
“My lack of understanding makes little difference because there is one thing I know that is absolutely true, LDS doctrines are works based.”
You lack of understanding makes a huge difference because our doctrine is not works based, despite your attempts to make that claim. You want to claim that any doctrine that actually teaches obedience is essential is based in works and that is not true. We are based in grace, because our works are based in grace. Grace is the foundation of our actions and our faith, and because of this it is inaccurate to claim that we are based in works. We do not deny the need for works, no; but our doctrine is not based in them. That is the error you are making, and that is the error I am seeking to correct.
As to Hebrews 6, I know the context very well, and it doesn’t change anything in the meaning. If a Jew, who was once a partaker of the Holy Ghost, were to fall away than his union would be destroyed. Yes, this is addressed to the Jews, but if this can happen in regards to them then why is it so impossible for it to happen in regards to everyone else.
So, let us look at the context and then the broader meaning. Paul is warning the Jews not to go back to the old law. Why should they not? Because anyone who abandons their faith will loose the union with God and once that happens there is no coming back. Paul is simply applying a universal truth to the specific situation that he is addressing.
Grindael
You’re the one playing the word games here as you are intentionally ignoring half of what I said, and then claiming that I never said it. Then you give a quote from the leaders and ignore everything they are saying except a few brief words that you twist so as to give the appearance of something that you are able to attack.
Read the quote again. It states “No power on earth, no power beneath the earth, WILL EVER PREVENT YOU or me or any Latter-day Saint FROM BEING SAVED, except ourselves.”
Notice how he does not say no power can save us except ourselves. Of course you have to ignore this very significant wording to make your claims work, and you have no problem doing that.
So, as I said, and as that quote clearly teaches, we do not have the ability to save ourselves. Salvation comes only through Christ and his grace. What we can do is prevent our salvation, and that is done by failing to be obedient. When can ensure our salvation by being obedient, because in doing so we are not preventing our salvation.
This also answers your questions as to why we are commanded to do things. The command is given so that we understand wha action will prevent salvation and what action will ensure it. God gives all the ability to be obedient and do everything that is requried of us, if we seek out those things. The question is not whether the ability is there, but whether the desire is there.
Now, I have never said anything to the contrary, and you know it.
Shem, and you have yet to demonstrate how and why your god is unique beyond that he is our god. But Young said that our god is Adam, so your answer is still not entirely clear.
I know, I know, you don’t see any problems here. But logically, if someone follows the eternal principles, then that person can become a god, much like the father and the son have done, and apparently, Adam, have done. It is my understanding that those who do so get their own worlds out there to rule over. Therefore, the logic becomes this: do well in the principles, and become god over a world. Which world gets which newly minted god is never addressed, so without more information, it is just as logical to suggest placement is random. This random placement therefore logically means that one god was just as likely to have become our god than any other.
You can tire of discussing the matter all you want, but to clear up any confusion on our part, you have to provide details about why the god of this world is special beyond merely that he is our god. Failure to do that means that he is just one of potentially millions, who happened to get us. Such a god is not unique, nor for that matter, special. He’s just a god and is only granted authority over his singular people to whom he was assigned.
Sorry– that is logic, too. I understand that a people can still worship this being, but even with thatt that element, he is still just a god among many. We would still be required to worship another being if, hypothetically, the original were to be replaced. This is, and must be, the Mormon system.
As to God being supreme in every conceivable way: why is God limited to human logic? He’s God, isn’t He? He holds more power than we do, right? Who are we to know precisely what his logic is? LDS, in fact, acknowledge that His ways are not our ways in at least several situations, so why limit His power based on human logic?
—
A couple of thoughts on your discussion with Old Man and Grindael:
First, you say this: “Paul is warning the Jews not to go back to the old law. Why should they not? Because anyone who abandons their faith will loose the union with God and once that happens there is no coming back.” Didn’t Jesus preach that it is not law that saves but faith? How then can we go back to a system based on law? What, then, have the LDS done? It is a system based on laws and things that must be accomplished in order to achieve exaltation. There is no denying that it is legal based system, and arguably a return to the old law (and certainly contrary to Jesus claim to replace the law with himself).
The second flows directly from this first: if you can explain how one can achieve exaltation without completing the works, you can then claim to be a system based exclusively on grace. If you are willing to admit you are not exclusively grace, fair enough, though that in and of itself is telling if you deny being exclusively based on grace. It admits you are bound to a merit system, as well, inasmuch as it suggests you cannot have one without the other.
In both situations you can tell us how wrong we all are for suggesting these logical conclusions. But you cannot separate exaltation from works, as far as I can tell. Its really as simple as this trite comment: if you don’t do certain things, you won’t be exalted. The result is a legal based system similar to the old law and a system not based entirely on grace.
Shem
“As to Hebrews 6, I know the context very well, and it doesn’t change anything in the meaning.”
Of course the context changes the meaning, your interpretation cannot be gleaned from that passage unless you are prepared to ignore context & please tell me why, in your previous post did you ask if I had ever read Hebrews 6:4 when you knew full well that we had discussed it in some depth in a previous thread?
You said
“Yes, this is addressed to the Jews, but if this can happen in regards to them then why is it so impossible for it to happen in regards to everyone else.”
I have already explained why it could happen to Jews but obviously you cannot or will not understand. Anyway, I’ll try again using even simpler words.
Paul is warning his Jewish readers that should they attempt to combine the works of the Law (much as Mormons do) with the Grace that brings salvation then they would be setting at nought Christs sacrifice. I’ll explain why it’s impossible for non-Jews in just a moment.
You said
“So, let us look at the context and then the broader meaning. Paul is warning the Jews not to go back to the old law. Why should they not? Because anyone who abandons their faith will loose the union with God and once that happens there is no coming back. Paul is simply applying a universal truth to the specific situation that he is addressing.”
First of all there is no broader meaning. You are forcing into the passage something that is not there in order to make Pauls words fit your theology. Paul is NOT applying a universal truth, he is writing to a Jewish audience about things specific to Jews. He was not accusing them of abandoning their new-found faith he was warning them against ADDING the Mosaic Law to it. In this context the falling away mentioned by Paul is a renouncing of Christ by men who wished to place the Law alongside their new-found freedom in Christ & who would thereby, perhaps without even realising it, ally themselves with those who crucified Christ.
What does he say in verse 2?
“…..not laying AGAIN the foundation of repentance from dead works”
For obvious reasons this could only apply to Jews.
It should be clear by now that when Paul says it is impossible to come to repentance a second time he is talking about those who, even after being enlightened, still wish to add works of the Law to Gods free gift. There is absolutely no justification for applying this passage to those outside of Judaism, those who have been born again of the Spirit & have become ‘New Creations in Christ’
2 Corinthians 5:17-18 says
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation.
Gods promise is very clear, no one who truly believes will ever be lost, & if you have read the Bible as much as you claim you would know this. For example, have you read John 10:28 or Ephesians 4:30
You would not say the things you do if you truly understood salvation through Gods grace. Here’s a short quote for you Shem, understand it & believe it.
“If man is responsible for securing his salvation, then he can be lost; if God secures the person’s salvation, then the person is forever secure.”
Be very careful of what you say with your loose interpretation of Hebrews, you could be doing Satans work in discouraging those who have doubts concerning their salvation.
Shem,
I was thinking about your comment about the logical impossibility of God’s status above all. It occurred to me that a necessary component of it being illogical is that something must then be able to equal or surpass God if it is impossible for Him to be above all things.
Do you care to share what you think can be his equal or greater than Him?
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. You, (Shem) once again are not telling the truth about Mormon “salvation”. That is ONLY RESURRECTION. Period. So your quote is ridiculous because in Mormonism, EVERYONE WILL GET SALVATION. It might be in a “lower kingdom” but you will get it. Even if you are the worst person in the world, like Adolf Hitler, you will still get “salvation” in the telestial kingdom. So your analogy is ignorant, deceiving, and self serving. No matter how many times I quote your leaders, YOU IGNORE IT. You must WORK for anything other than a resurrection in Mormonism. That is how you “save yourself”. You need to get out of that bubble that you have encased yourself in.
As for being “commanded in all things”, you (again) don’t get it. Jesus gave us all we need: Love God and your neighbor. That is ALL WE NEED for commandments. All his apostles affirmed this. That is why James (who said faith without works is dead) said,
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. (James 2:8)
There is no need to be “commanded” in anything else unless you are so stupid that you don’t understand this, or are living under men’s “regulations” that are anathema to the true Gospel of Jesus as you and every other Mormon are doing right now.
It appears Shem has disappeared. Maybe he is busy. Fair enough. I was/am, sincerely hoping to see a response to the last few posts in this thread.
If he has decided to not return, I wish Shem the best, and he seriously consider what has been presented to him.
Old Man
I am reading nothing into the text that isn’t there, and I have explained this. You have failed to address the main point that I made, and so unitl you do I will not address anything else.
That point is this: Why is it that only a Jew is capable of falling from the faith as you suggest? In other words, why can this passage not be applied to any other people?
Grindael
I know you hate to be wrong but the blatant lies are rather tiring, as are your flipping your terms around so as to appear right. You originally said that Grace = resurrection, which I proved completely wrong. Now you say that Salvation = resurrection, so let me prove you wrong once again.
From LDS.org “In the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the terms “saved” and “salvation” have various meanings. As used in Romans 10:9-10, the words “saved” and “salvation” signify a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. Through this covenant relationship, followers of Christ are assured salvation from the eternal consequences of sin if they are obedient. “Salvation” and “saved” are also used in the scriptures in other contexts with several different meanings.”
It later states that there are at least “six different meanings of the word salvation.”
You are right that resurrection, or Salvation from Physical Death is one of those six and is given to all men regardless of what they do or what they believe. But that is only one definition of Salvation.
However there is also “Salvation from the Second Death. The scriptures sometimes speak of salvation from the second death. The second death is the final spiritual death—being cut off from righteousness and denied a place in any kingdom of glory” and this will fall on only a very few.
There is also being saved from sin. “In this sense, salvation is conditional, depending on an individual’s continuing in faithfulness, or enduring to the end in keeping the commandments of God.” In this sense I am already saved as I have enter baptism and have received the Holy Ghost. Every day that I live worthy of that I remain saved.
Of course, the greatest salvation is eternal life, or exaltation. “In the scriptures, the words saved and salvation often refer to eternal life, or exaltation…If the word salvation is used in this sense, no one is saved in mortality.”
So, salvation is many things, despite your insistence otherwise. Only if you want to limit its meaning to that which is given unconditionally is resurrection the only aspect of it.
Of course, if we are to limit it in this way then we could easily argue that you have no salvation at all as yours is conditioned on faith.
Now, as you well know, I have never once denied the need for our works and have stated before that grace by itself will only get us into the lowest degree of glory. I have never denied this, nor will I ever do so. But to say what you claim is to blatantly and purposely manipulate the truth so as to distort the understanding of others in an attempt to vilify the church and those who believe in it. You are not accurate in your statements and you rarely have been.
MJP
You said “It occurred to me that a necessary component of it being illogical is that something must then be able to equal or surpass God if it is impossible for Him to be above all things.”
To equal, yes, but not surpass. God is the greatest, he is the ultimate; he is in the position where nothing can be greater or surpass him. This, however, does not prevent one becoming equal with him, at least in some ways.
However, this is not what I said was illogical. I said it was illogical that all existence came from God. That is something else all together. If God created anything then logically there was a principle by which he acted to perform that creation. This principle could not have come from God; or, if it did, the principle that allowed him to create that principle could not have come from God.
People have often talked to me about an uncaused cause, and they identify that as God. They say that it is illogical to believe anything else. In many ways this logic is sound, but just applied to the wrong thing. The thing that is uncaused must be the principle that allows one thing to cause another.
Now, as to the rest of your logic, it only works by ignoring large and significant portions of the doctrine. For instance, you said “It is my understanding that those who do so get their own worlds out there to rule over.” This only really works if you ignore the fact that in the Book of Abraham, as well as many sermons by Joseph Smith and other prophets, the gods are described as working in a counsel, as a ruling unit. It also must ignore the doctrine that all those who are exalted will live together on this earth under the direction of Christ and Adam. These things do not work with the idea of having individual worlds.
Many other things you mention are not logical when see in the light of the doctrine. You say God is not special, but he is, because he is our Father. Just as on the Earth our parents are special for the simple fact that they are our parents. God is our God not because he was assigned to us, but because we are literally his children and he literally our Father. We worship Him as our father, as we pay proper respect to our earthly Father. Our Heavenly Father can never be replaced because our parentage can never be changed.
Finally, as to works and grace and the whole argument, you know that I have never denied the need for works, but have always shown how works, faith, and grace operate together to bring salvation. But, in our doctrine our works are dependent on the Grace of God, as is our faith. So, yes, our doctrine is based exclusively on Grace, as that is the foundation of everything else. But it is just the foundation, and so no, our doctrine is not grace only. Do you see what I am saying?
No, Shem,
Here is the quote wherein you say it is a logical impossibility. It has nothing to do with coming from something/somewhere else:
““Do you understand that we as Christians believe God to be above all else in every conceivable way?” [You are quoting me, here.]
Yes, I understand this, and as I said it is a logical impossibility. [Your response.]”
“You say God is not special, but he is, because he is our Father. Just as on the Earth our parents are special for the simple fact that they are our parents. God is our God not because he was assigned to us, but because we are literally his children and he literally our Father.”
Yet, haven’t we always existed in some form or another? God only put us here on this earth. Correct me if I am wrong, but if that is true, it only supports my position.
Now, as to the works/faith discussion, I thank you for admitting your doctrine is not based entirely on grace. It is not, and cannot be, when you are required to do your part and when faith only gets you so far. Contrast that with our position wherein we do not subscribe any value to works towards our salvation. We can safely say our salvation is based on grace alone.
Once again, Shem has it wrong. He says that in Mormonism Jesus Grace “enables” one to keep the commandments. But that is not what Mormonism teaches,
The Book of Mormon nor the Doctrine and Covenants do not teach that GRACE enables one to keep the Commandments. If so, everyone would be able to keep all of the commandments. No, you must EARN the GRACE, BEFORE it is effective. That is, Grace does not work for your EXALTATION, unless you earn it first. That is what the Book of Mormon teaches. You must DENY YOURSELF OF ALL UNGODLINESS BEFORE IT CAN WORK. Shem (again) has it exactly backwards. These guys though, get it:
Here are all the laws and commandments that Mormons MUST keep, BEFORE Grace can be applied to their salvation. It’s a long list, and I doubt that ANY Mormon will admit to keeping all of them.
You never “proved me wrong” the first time Shem. Get some glasses:
What does it mean when people say, “I am saved”? Generally it means they are saved from death. This type of general salvation comes to all people by the grace of God alone. General salvation comes REGARDLESS OF OBEDIENCE to gospel principles or laws and results solely in resurrection from the dead. In this respect, salvation is synonymous with immortality, in that the resurrected person will live forever. Resurrection comes to every person born into this world through the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ, [His GRACE] whether one confesses Christ or not. Whether a person is wicked or righteous, each person will receive the gift of immortality through Jesus Christ.…
The true value of the sacrifice of Christ means much more than this general salvation which comes to all mankind. There is an additional salvation that God has planned for his children. This additional salvation is an individual salvation and is conditioned not only upon grace, but also upon obedience to gospel law. (Theodore M. Burton, Conference, April 1972).
In Mormonism GRACE = SALVATION = A RESURRECTION. It is all the same. I’ve quoted over two dozen Mormon Authorities and you have only given your opinion which is totally worthless here. Still in the bubble, still calling people names and still living in a dream world that has no basis in reality.
Since I’m not lying, and am quoting Mormon Authorities, if you call me a liar again, you will be permanently banned. I’m tired of your games and ignorance. Go promote it elsewhere.
“…. You have failed to address the main point that I made, and so unitl you do I will not address anything else.
That point is this: Why is it that only a Jew is capable of falling from the faith as you suggest? In other words, why can this passage not be applied to any other people?”
I sometimes wonder if you even read never mind understand what I say. I have explained this to you TWICE but you still do not understand & because you don’t understand you invoke the standard LDS get out clause “until you do so I will not address anything else” which is another way of saying, I have no answers.
For the third & last time, Paul was talking to a Jewish audience who were in danger of falling back on the Mosaic Law. ONLY JEWS could do this because it was only Jews who had the mosaic Law. Is that so hard to understand?
In case it is here’s a couple of quotes from previous posts.
“Paul is warning his Jewish readers that should they attempt to combine the works of the Law (much as Mormons do) with the Grace that brings salvation then they would be setting at nought Christs sacrifice.”
If that’s not enough for you here’s a little more
“Paul is NOT applying a universal truth, he is writing to a Jewish audience about things specific to Jews. He was not accusing them of abandoning their new-found faith he was warning them against ADDING the Mosaic Law to it. In this context the falling away mentioned by Paul is a renouncing of Christ by men who wished to place the Law alongside their new-found freedom in Christ …..”
Perhaps it’s your Mormon beliefs that prevent you from seeing this but any Jew who added the Law to Christ’s work was, without even realising it, renouncing Christ. So, let’s have no more claims that I haven’t answered your questions when clearly I have done so, three times!
Ps. how many points have I made that you have failed to address?
Once again, Shem, you are at a point where you are not making sense. I know, through LDS goggles, it makes sense. I get what you are saying, however, when put against logic, it makes no sense whatsoever. And this applies both to our placement on this world and to your application of grace.
As I have said before, if you have to work on your salvation, it cannot be all about grace– even if grace is what allows your work. Think of a mathematical equation: grace + works + faith = exaltation. Take away any of those three variables and you cannot equal exaltation. Its impossible.
As to our placement, you said this: “We have always existed…” Even as you further explain that we don’t know how we have existed, that we have always existed supports the randomness of our placement. To get around this, you have to explain a rationale for the placement, which you have admitted is a mystery, at best. Otherwise, logic supports my position on chance dictating which god we get.
I’ve accused your faith of being all hope and all faith. Your reliance on these points, in the face of logic to the contrary, supports my contention.
Shem, chiming in to your post to grindael, I have to state that you once chastised me for taking your word for everything. Which is it?
It seems that you want to have your cake and to eat it, too. Not just in regards to authorities in your faith, but in your explanations of everything.
It seems in your post to grindael, you have reverted to a stereotypical response from Mormons in how they address former members who become critics: blame the messenger rather than the message.
—
Grindael, forgive me for intruding, but Shem did tell me not to take his word for things and to review authorities. Whenever this takes place, I am accused of distorting their position. I feel it worthwhile to point this out.
MJP,
Shem and a lot of others in the Church do this. They want you to read the “authorities” or lds.org, but they want you to come away with how THEY interpret it. If you do not, and actually take the words for what they truly mean, you are a “liar” and a “distorter of truth” or in “Satan’s Pocket”, and I was told by him again, that I’m a liar, and that all I want to do is “destroy” what I once believed in, and that I would be “burned at the Lord’s Second Coming…
I told Shem to stop doing this (calling me a liar), but he obviously didn’t take me seriously, so he is no longer allowed to post here.
Now, I’m all for a bit of banter and such. But it gets tedious to be called a liar every time you quote a Mormon Authority and he doesn’t like what you quote.
Shem did make a comment about Grace that is interesting, and needs to be addressed, because it is wrong. He quoted lds.org which says,
And,
The problem is, Ether 12:27 is the only thing they can back this up with, and it doesn’t say anything close to that. It actually says,
This only says that “my grace is sufficient for all men who HUMBLE THEMSELVES. IT does not say that GRACE MAKES MEN HUMBLE. You see, you must “humble yourself” and KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS BEFORE you can have Mormon GRACE be effective for you. (Read all of my quotes above from Mormon “Authorities”). This of course, has been misrepresented by MODERN Mormon Authorities, because they are trying to mitigate the damage of what Mormonism actually teaches, that it is a Gospel of Works and Regulations. Ether says that God gives men WEAKNESSES that they ‘may be humble”, not his GRACE, or that Grace enables men to “be humble”.
Read every quote found here, at lds.org from Joseph Smith about keeping the commandments and obedience and you will not find ONE WORD about Grace. Not one. That is because Joseph never taught that Grace is an “enabling power” to keep the commandments.
LDS Bible Dictionary: “This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation AFTER they have expended their own best efforts. Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice WITHOUT TOTAL EFFORT on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, ‘It is by grace that we are saved, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO’ (2 Nephi 25:23).”
In the Bible, it is the Holy Spirit that helps us in our weakness. (Romans 8:26). Shem, of course, didn’t give us the whole picture. He never did.
Grindael,
It baffles me how LDS think. I don’t necessarily want to call them members of a cult, but it sure seems to fit.