Two Views of the Fall

Mormonism and traditional Christianity view the acts of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden very differently.

According to Mormonism:

To the first man and woman on earth, the Lord said, “Be fruitful, and multiply” (Moses 2:28; see also Gen. 1:28; Abr. 4:28). This commandment was first in sequence and first in importance. It was essential that God’s spirit children have mortal birth and an opportunity to progress toward eternal life. Consequently, all things related to procreation are prime targets for the adversary’s efforts to thwart the plan of God.

Red AppleWhen Adam and Eve received the first commandment, they were in a transitional state, no longer in the spirit world but with physical bodies not yet subject to death and not yet capable of procreation. They could not fulfill the Father’s first commandment without transgressing the barrier between the bliss of the Garden of Eden and the terrible trials and wonderful opportunities of mortal life.

For reasons that have not been revealed, this transition, or “fall,” could not happen without a transgression—an exercise of moral agency amounting to a willful breaking of a law (see Moses 6:59). This would be a planned offense, a formality to serve an eternal purpose…

It was Eve who first transgressed the limits of Eden in order to initiate the conditions of mortality. Her act, whatever its nature, was formally a transgression but eternally a glorious necessity to open the doorway toward eternal life. Adam showed his wisdom by doing the same. And thus Eve and “Adam fell that men might be” (2 Ne. 2:25).

…Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve’s act and honor her wisdom and courage in the great episode called the Fall (see Bruce R. McConkie, “Eve and the Fall,” Woman, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1979, pp. 67–68)…

Note the different perspective and the special wisdom of Eve, who focused on the purpose and effect of the great plan of happiness: “Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient” (Moses 5:11). (Apostle Dallin H. Oaks, “‘The Great Plan of Happiness’,” Ensign, 11/1993, pages 72-73)

Contrast Mormonism’s “celebration” of the “glorious necessity” of the Fall with the event as understood according to traditional Christianity:

Genesis 1:26-7 introduces us to the original divine pattern for man’s life. He was the image-bearer of God… God originally made man to reflect his holy character and his position as bearing rightful rule over all his creatures. In that respect he is like God.

It is an amazing thing to think of man set in the world in order to be God’s personal representative upon the earth. The opening chapters of Genesis breathe something of this quiet spirit of wonder. Man is given creative powers (Gen. 1:28); he exercises dominion (Gen. 1:26); like God he is a creative workman (Gen. 2:15).

Green SnakeBut in Genesis 3 something happens in each of these areas to distort God’s gracious plan. A virulent disease begins to spread through the whole of man’s life from the first moment of his sin. He hides from God in the garden (Gen. 3:8-10); his relationship with his wife, and hers with him, is distorted into one of ugly, back-biting recrimination (Gen. 3:13-17); the ground is cursed and man’s daily labour becomes a burden rather than a pleasure (Gen. 3:17-19). All this is sad enough, but it is accompanied by a change in the image of God.

…We might well be justified in thinking that there could be no greater disaster than that the likeness of God should be exterminated. But in fact there is. What if the image of God, in which his greatness and glory are reflected, becomes a distortion of his character? What if, instead of reflecting his glory, man begins to reflect the very antithesis of God? What if God’s image becomes an anti-god? This, essentially, is the affront which fallen man is to God. He takes all that God has lavished upon him to enable him to live in free and joyful obedience, and he transforms it into a weapon by which he can oppose his Maker. The very breath which God gives him thousands of times each day he abuses by his sin. The magnitude of his sin is also the measure of his need of salvation. The wonder of God’s saving purpose lies in the fact that he longs more than we imagine to restore what has been lost. But the old creation must pass away, and a new one be established; what was lost in Adam must be restored in Christ… (Sinclair B. Ferguson, The Christian Life, pages 11-13)

Summarized, according to these two views, the Fall was either:

• a glorious necessity that opened the door to eternal life (i.e., Godhood); or

• a sin that opened the door to a virulent disease distorting the image-bearers of God into ugly anti-gods.

In the Mormon view the disobedience of Eve and Adam is described as courageous “wisdom” deserving of “honor” for the transgressors.

In the biblical view, the disobedience is recognized as “sin” resulting in a broken relationship with God, marital discord, and discontent with what was once satisfying daily labor. As Christian theologian R.C. Sproul put it,

“Because of their disobedience, Adam and Eve became fugitives from even the gaze of God. We have been running ever since.”

Conversely, in the Mormon view the Fall was a positive disobedience. Yes, it brought about “pain, suffering, sin, evil and death” on earth, but “without the Fall…the whole plan of salvation would have been frustrated.”

An LDS author wrote,

“In contrast to most readers of the Bible, we believe that Adam and Eve both should be commended for what they did to bring about the Fall.” (Robert J. Woodford, “‘In the Beginning’: A Latter-day Perspective,” Ensign, January 1998)

And 10th LDS Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith explained,

“When Adam was driven out of the Garden of Eden, the Lord passed a sentence upon him. Some people have looked upon that sentence as being a dreadful thing. It was not; it was a blessing. I do not know that it can truthfully be considered even as a punishment in disguise.” (Doctrines of Salvation 1:113)

When considering the Mormon view of the Fall in light of the biblical view, I can’t help but think of God’s Word through Isaiah:

Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter!
(Isaiah 5:20)

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
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33 Responses to Two Views of the Fall

  1. Jeff B says:

    Never really put too much thought into this topic, but its interesting. It has provoked a thought in my mind that the explanation of the “fall” given by Mormon’s is to support pre-existence. Thats my only thought, I haven’t done much reading into this subject to have a specific point of view yet.

  2. Megan says:

    I have never seen any instance in the Bible where disobedience towards God is portrayed as being a good thing. Yes, God can and does use our evil actions towards him for good, but this was never his original intention.
    I think Mormons need to portray Adam and Eve’s disobedence as something positive because it lends credence to their whole view of “the plan of happiness”; ie., humans becoming gods. Never mind the fact that Satan was kicked out of heaven for trying to do become as powerful as God!

  3. Rick B says:

    Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    Notice in verse 28, God tells them to be fruitful and multiply. In other words he is saying, go have Children. This was before the fall that God told them this. But the LDS teach that Adam and Eve were not able to have Children until after the Fall occurred. Here is a list of sources so you can look it up for your self.

    Doct of Salvation vol 1 pg 115. Gospel Principles pg’s 32-34(1997 edition)
    True to the Faith pg 56-57 (2004) Mormon Doctrine pg 268.

    The Bible clearly teaches, there is ONE TREE Adam and Eve are not allowed to eat from. Yet here is what the LDS teach. In the Joseph Smith “Translation” of the Bible, we read in Genesis chapter 2 verses 20-21

    20:But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, 21: Nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but remember that I forbid it.
    Then we read exactly word for word in the Pearl of great price, MOSES 3:17

    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
    I want to point out some things for the LDS readers to think about. Why would God tell Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, (Have kids) But in reality they could not, until they ate from the tree that God told them not to? This seems to be a bit deceitful to me, and this would make God out to be a liar. How could God honestly tell them to do something, when he knew they could not?

  4. Michael P says:

    I can’t help but think that this view limits God. If he can be disobeyed with a positive outcome, how much power does he really have?

  5. Rick B says:

    Another thing would be, Why would God tell them not to eat of the tree, But in reality he planned all along that they should and would in order to be set free as it were? Why would God not simply be honest from the start and tell them, You must eat of this tree and here is why. Again this makes God a liar and this shows God using deceitful means to fulfill His plans and purposes. This is not the God I serve, He does not need to use lies and deception.

    I challenge anyone to show me chapter and verse where God lied or uses lies. The bible tells me it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie, Hebrews 6:18 then in Titus 1:2 it says God cannot lie, The BoM also teaches God cannot lie, Read Enos 6, Ether 3:12, D and C 62:6.

    Then we are taught in LDS teachings, After the fall we have Joy, and it was Gods plan for us to fall. But we read in Genesis 3:10-21, Adam was afraid, Adam blames Eve for something, He is no longer man enough to take responceabilty for his Actions. We read the Serpent is cursed, there is enmity put between the women and her seed. the Lord greatly multiplies sorrow, and gives pain in child birth. The ground is cursed and we have thorns and thistles, and lastly animals had to be put to death to make skins to cover Adam and Eve.

    Of all the things I listed from Genesis 3:10-21 Please Explain to me how any of that brings Joy? We then read in 2 Nephi 6 they were cut off from the presence of the Lord. how is this joyful or good? We also read in Moses 5:11 and Gospel Principles pg 33 that they would not have been able to choose good or evil if it were not for the fall. It is really sad that I need to point this out, but the idea of being able to choose Evil is really not a good thing. People always seem to choose Evil over Good. We read in Jeremiah 17:9

    The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? And in Romans 3:10-11 10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    Rick b

  6. falcon says:

    Dare I say, “Here we go again.” My reading of Mormon doctrine reveals to me that it runs along a continuum of silly to aberrant to heresy to blasphemous. From beginning to end it’s apparent that Mormonism isn’t even a distant cousin of Christianity. A veneer of Christian sounding language can’t cover, for long, that Mormonism is a distinct and separate religion from orthodox Christianity. I just wish these folks would present their whole story up front to people.

  7. David says:

    I have always been opposed to the Mormon take on the “fall” as it does violence to language. The first man and woman are said to have fallen “up”. Hence, they (we) did not really fall.

    I would also add that this is another new invention from J. Smith that is ahistorical. If the LDS church is supposed to be the restored, primitive church then one would expect to find some vestige of this important doctrinal interpretation somewhere in Jewish and/or Christian history. However, the opposite is found as Jews and Christians throughout history viewed the fall as a “fall”.

    To answer your question Rick (and I am playing Devil’s advocate here) I would say God uses lies, or at least deception, to accomplish his desires. I would say 1 Kings 22 demonstrates this. However, this still runs counter to the LDS take on the fall as the Bible never views being deceived as a good thing for the deceived. Whenever someone buys into deception, even if God is somehow involved in that deception (and yes I know this may offend some people), it does not benefit but rather hurts the deceived. Satan did not speak truth in The Garden (contrary to the LDS position) and The Man was in fact deceived (by The Serpent not God) which lead to the fall/cursing of not just Adam and Eve but all of their decendents. I do like your point Rick that even The Serpent was cursed thereby showing that The Serpent did not go up but rather down in The Garden. According to Mormon doctrine, God cursed The Serpent for telling the truth.

  8. Rick B says:

    Hey David, In 1 Kings, God himself did not lie, that was my point in my Question, God himself did not and cannot lie, I gave verses stating that already.

    As far as 1 kings goes,Something that we don’t often consider is that in a sense, Satan is a servant of God. He is serving God’s purposes. That is why God has allowed him to exist. That’s why God has allowed him freedom. He is acting in the sphere of his own free will, but yet the controls are ultimately held by God.

    Satan is definitely limited in his understanding, in his abilities, in his powers. They are limited by God. God says you can go so far, no further. Satan complained to God the fact of his limitations in the case of Job. “You put a hedge around that guy. I can’t get to him.” And he was complaining that God had put limitations on what he could do. So Satan is only allowed liberty within a limited spoke. God puts the limitations on him, but he does serve purposes of God. Thus, God can use and often does use Satan or his emissaries to fulfill God’s purposes. Here is the case where God uses a lying spirit to fulfill His purpose.

    Also read

    James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

    James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

    Rick b

  9. Lancaster says:

    I don’t know how well-read Joseph Smith was, but Moses 5:11 and 2 Nephi 2 bear a striking resemblance to Milton’s account of the Fall in “Paradise Lost.” Here Adam reflects on being cast out of Eden:

    O goodness infinite, goodness immense!
    That all this good of evil shall produce,
    And evil turn to good; more wonderful
    Than that which by creation first brought forth
    Light out of darkness! Full of doubt I stand,
    Whether I should repent me now of sin
    By me done and occasioned, or rejoice
    Much more, that much more good thereof shall spring,
    To God more glory, more good will to Men

    Incidentally, I’ve never heard it said in Mormon circles that Satan was cursed for “telling the truth” in the Garden of Eden, but rather for usurping a right reserved to God–that of offering to Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil.

  10. David says:

    You challenged anyone to show you where, “God lied or uses lies”. I think I Kings 22 is a prime example of God using a lie. I think it shows that God is willing to initiate the deception. In the story of Job the “sons of El” approach God. Here, The LORD said, `Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ . . . and ‘the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets’.

    I think we are on the same page here. I agree God does not lie; he does not need to lie. I think if God is ordaining/allowing someone to be deceived, it will not go well for that person. I don’t think God sets rules in opposition to each other the way Mormons think he did in The Garden.

    I do think, however, that God can bring the mean which is in contrast to the theology of many Evangelicals. I believe that the Mormon take on The Fall is man-centered (that “we” might have joy) where as our take on it is much more theocentric. God got mean in The Garden by cursing an entire race that is created in his image. If you don’t get/accept that truth (that we are of a fallen race) then the entire Christian narrative either does not make sense or seems cruel.

  11. Rick B says:

    David said,

    You challenged anyone to show you where, “God lied or uses lies”. I think I Kings 22 is a prime example of God using a lie.

    I simply do not agree, God Did not Lie, He used a fallen Angel or Fallen Spirit, or Sinful fallen Human who lied, but God did not Lie. Rick b

  12. amanda says:

    When considering the Evangelical view of the Fall in light of the restored gospel, I can’t help but think of God’s Word through Isaiah:

    Woe to those who call evil good
    and good evil,
    who put darkness for light
    and light for darkness,
    who put bitter for sweet
    and sweet for bitter!
    (Isaiah 5:20)

    I am not exactly sure how evangelicals can explain a perfect and omniscient Father placing His children in a place where He knew they would be tempted by the devil and fall–without having some kind of plan other than your present belief that well, He put them there…and because they fell, THEN the plan for redemption came about…? Why were they placed there to begin with? And given two commandments they couldn’t keep? Unless the fall was necessary in order to further God’s plan to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

    The truth is that evangelical theology is missing the big picture. Through evangelical spectacles, the fall is a very confusing occurrence, without purpose or meaning.

    The fall through the spectacles of His restored gospel beautifully illustrates literally and symbolically, God’s plan for us. He gave Adam and Eve agency in the garden (and we receive as their posterity, another consequence to their choice in the garden), they exercised that agency by obeying one of His commandments (multiply and replenish) –the inevitable breaking of the other commandment (partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil) resulting in the fall due to TRANSGRESSION (not sin). Satan’s attempts to thwart God’s plan by tempting Eve only turned out to forward the work of God—DUH, do you really think that Satan had any control over the matter?? Opposition only proves to strengthen God and His perfect nature–and only serves to strengthen His children as they seek to submit their will to the Father. I’m happy to say that the fall is much more inspired with the map of the restored gospel.

  13. Michael P says:

    Reading the Mormon responses is interesting, and most, I think, show a misunderstanding of our view of the situation.

    First of all, God had to give us free will, else what’s the difference?

    Second, though he gave it to us, he still knew what would happen, so his plan was in place already.

    And I am not sure any have really responded to the claim that Adam and Eve, as men, knew better than God. This is the picture I get above…

    Man taking it into his own hands…

  14. amanda says:

    Michael,

    You couldn’t be more correct on your first point—I completely misunderstand evangelicals on this subject because I find their views confusing and lacking purpose. Yes, man has free will–but why were Adam and Eve placed in the garden to begin with? With bodies? And where did they come from? And did they chose to be created? Or were they created at that point? So God just created Adam and Eve to live forever in the garden and gave them two commandments that contradicted each other—and allowed Satan to tempt them…for fun…and then He said, “awww nuts” when Eve partook of the fruit??? The restored gospel clarifies the purpose of this very important event. Whereas the evangelical version seems as random as the big bang theory.

    I certainly allow the possibility that evangelicals in the past have not done a very good job in explaining their beliefs to me—to which I welcome further explanation. I certainly do not want to tell anyone what they believe (even though this is a common occurrence on this site).

  15. Michael P says:

    God created man from dust. Why? Because God created all here, and so that he may have company.

    You say God gave them two contradictory commandments… What are those?

    For fun? Absolutely not. Remember, God gave us free will. What does free will mean– the freedom to act or to act otherwise. Choice, apart from God’s “puppetteing” us is free will.

    So, that said, when Satan tempted them in the garden (angels have free will, too), it was him acting on his own, against what God commanded. Satan, the great temptor, deliberateely decieved Eve, and Adam failed to live up to his end and went along with it. As a result of their choice, their sin, they were punished, sent from Eden, and set to bear the pains of the world. This is not a good thing, as they were now separated from God, which is where we find ourselves today. Our sin nature is a direct result from this separation. This is why we need a bridge to get to God. This was why the sacrificial system in the OT existed, and what Christ ultimately fulfilled.

    Amanda, hope that makes sense. And if anyone would like to add/clarify above, feel free. Trying to be brief causes one to miss some points…

  16. amanda says:

    wo contradictory commandments

    1. multiply and replenish the earth
    2. do not partake of the fruit of knowledge (of good an evil)…basically, knowledge.

    Adam and Eve were innocent and lacked the knowledge necessary to procreate, thus they would have broken one of His commandments, even if they didn’t partake of the tree because they wouldn’t know how to procreate.

    I see their choice as a transgression of the law God gave them. It was not a sin to transgress law…I understand sin to be very different from transgression. but anyway, I’m sorry to say that I had a long day and do not have the energy to address all of your statements adequately, but appreciate your response.

    I would say that I believe God has more of a vested interest in each one of us as individuals because of our potential as His children, not simply because He desires our existence to amuse Himself.

  17. Michael P says:

    You ASSUME they did not know how to procreate. There is no evidence to suggest that was the case.

    You also bring out an interesting distinction between you and us: the notion of sin. We view it as any disobeying of God, which separates us from him. You evidently have a very different view.

    As to God loving us, he most certainly does, but this does not discount that reason. Why is it we have children? To enjoy watching them grow and being a part of it. This is similar to God.

  18. Megan says:

    So it’s not a sin to transgress law? I know this is an older thread, but Amanda or other LDS, can you please tell me why it’s not only okay but good to transgress law against a holy God? And can you find any example where God says it’s good to disobey him? All sin is disobedience towards God. If I gossip about someone, I am sinning not only against that person but against God. Again, can you find any shred of evidence in the Bible where God calls disobedience/transgression good? It’s dangerous to play games with God and disobey/transgress against him. They’re the same exact thing.

  19. mm says:

    Megan-

    It is not okay or good to transgress, sin, disobey, against God. LDS aren’t taught that it is okay.

    When we sin, we are punished. The repentance process along with the repercussions of the sin, make one stronger, smarter, etc.

    Ether 12:27 (in the Book of Mormon)
    “And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.”

    God knows we are weak and subject to temptation. The atonement makes it possible for us to make those mistakes or weaknesses become a strength.

    Adam and Eve became stronger as a result of their mistake. They had to. The earth was “cursed for their sake.” It was “for their sake” because they needed to progress, improve, or become stronger.

    Does that answer your question? :) ~mae

  20. Rick B says:

    MM said Adam and Eve became stronger as a result of their mistake. They had to. The earth was “cursed for their sake.” It was “for their sake” because they needed to progress, improve, or become stronger.

    How do you figure? We now suffer, have pain, get sick, die, O-Yea, that makes us Stronger, that was what we needed, none of this would Happen if it were not for Adam and Eve sinning. Rick b

  21. mm says:

    Rick-
    How do you interpret “cursed for their sake”?

    I think that the trials we face in this life make us stronger.

    Consider a child learning to walk. If his parents carry him everywhere, he will never learn how to walk. But if his parents let him fall down struggle, his body will naturally get stronger and eventually he will learn how to walk.

    2 Nephi 2:11
    “For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.”

  22. Rick B says:

    MM Said

    Consider a child learning to walk. If his parents carry him everywhere, he will never learn how to walk. But if his parents let him fall down struggle, his body will naturally get stronger and eventually he will learn how to walk.

    I agree with that but, to say that God could not create Adam and Eve with perfect Knowalde of How to have sex in order for both Pleasure and to have Kids with out first “Falling” is crazy. Did not Adam name every living Creature on Earth before Eve was around? Did he not walk with God and Talk with God before Eve was around? You mean Adam was smart enough to talk with God plus give names to the Creatures, but not smart enough to do anything else?

    God created a full grown man, Not a baby that first grew up then went about the garden. I said this before but will say it again in case it was missed, Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    Notice in verse 28, God tells them to be fruitful and multiply. In other words he is saying, go have Children. This was before the fall that God told them this.

    Please Explain how in the LDS view, they needed to “Fall” in order to have Kids, but in the verse I posted it said Multiply before the fall. Rick b

  23. mm says:

    Rick

    I agree with you. I have read the same verses in Gen 1. Having to “fall” to figure out how to have kids is a silly idea that I don’t agree with and I haven’t posted anything that would suggest otherwise.

  24. shelli says:

    mm said

    Rick

    I agree with you. I have read the same verses in Gen 1. Having to “fall” to figure out how to have kids is a silly idea that I don’t agree with and I haven’t posted anything that would suggest otherwise.

    The problem is that many LDS believe we were meant to fall, and it was a good thing! You don’t seem to agree. What exactly do you believe about the fall then?

  25. Ralph says:

    RickB,

    The LDS church does not teach that Adam and Eve did not know how to have children before the fall, we teach that they COULD NOT have children before the fall (ie physically impossible). They were immortal beings at that time, it was the fall that brought in mortality. If they were to have children, the children too would be immortal, and so on and so forth. That is why they had to break one of the rules – either have no children OR eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil in order to have children.

  26. Michael P says:

    Ralph, I am not sure I understand…

    Why is it that their kids being immortal is a problem, and they were to bring the curse of mankind on them in order to have kids?

    Also, clarify this for me, I thought it was the purpose of such immortal beings to populate various worlds…

  27. Ralph says:

    Michael P,

    The answer to your last question is also the answer to your first. Not all immortal beings can have children. Only those who have achieved exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom – in otherwords those who have achieved godhood. Adam and Eve were not in this category, and neither would their children, if they were able to have any. So the fall brought about mortality, thus allowing Adam and Eve to have children so they could follow the first commandment God gave them.

  28. Michael P says:

    Ralph,

    Thanks for the response, though I am not sure the whole thing still makes any sense.

    So, not all immortal beings have acheived godhood. Who can be immortal beings?

    Further, I am not sure if it makes any sense for God to put anyone in that predicament. It seems inconsistent with the God I know. Perhaps you could expand on that…

    Thanks.

  29. Rick B says:

    Ralph said

    They were immortal beings at that time, it was the fall that brought in mortality. If they were to have children, the children too would be immortal, and so on and so forth. That is why they had to break one of the rules – either have no children OR eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil in order to have children.

    Ralph, Not only does the Bible not teach this, but neither does the BoM. And I point out the BoM not saying this because, JS said it was the most correct book of any and a man could get closer to God by reading it. You guys get on us when we point out your Prophets said or teach this and that, you say, that was their Opinion and they were not teaching Scripture.

    You guys say, we look to the Scriptures, so since you seem to have this double standerd, I will ask this, You guys were not taught what you said from the Scriptures, IE, Bible or BoM, so how can you trust that teaching to be true, in light of the fact I said twice now, The Bible teaches God said, Be fruitful and Multiply before the fall. If your view is correct, then God lied, or we simply have a major problem. Care to take a stab at this. Thanks, Rick b

  30. Ralph says:

    On the LDS website under ‘The Fall of Adam’, it says The Fall is an integral part of Heavenly Father’s plan of salvation (see 2 Nephi 2:15–16; 9:6). Then it quotes a few scriptures –

    “If Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
    “And [Adam and Eve] WOULD HAVE HAD NO CHILDREN; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. (2 Nephi 2:22–26; see also 2 Nephi 2:19–21, 27)

    “Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
    “And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we NEVER SHOULD HAVE HAD SEED, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient” (Moses 5:10-11).

    From these scriptures (one from the BoM, RickB) we can see that if Adam and Eve had not partaken of the fruit and fallen, then they would not be able to have progeny.

    As for the contradictory commandments and you not wanting to believe God would do it, think about this – You believe that God created the devil. Why would He put us in these circumstances, giving us something that is totally opposite to Him? Isn’t that a contradiction in itself there? Yes God is not ‘directly’ tempting us, but He put it there in the first place. He is the original source. Also in The Lord’s Prayer, Jesus Himself said “Lead us not into temptation”. Why would God lead us into temptation?

  31. Rick B says:

    Ralph, when God created the Devil, he Created the devil Perfect, yet After a time not given in the Bible, the Devil became corrupt and wanted to exalt himself above God and be worshiped. God did not create the Devil already in a fallen state. Rick b

  32. Ralph says:

    RickB, That sounds very much like the LDS teachings about the origins of the Devil.

    However, your argument falls down in the fact that God is omniscient. He created the Devil knowing all along what the devil was going to do – ie that the devil would try to usurp God’s power and authority and then tempt man leading man away from God. So its still a contradiction that God created the devil.

    When viewed from the LDS perspective it is not a contradiction and makes perfect sense. This life is a testing ground to see if we will believe in God and have faith in Jesus. We have been given our free agency to choose good or evil, but there needed to be someone to tempt us with evil. The devil, AKA in LDS church as Lucifer, used his free agency in the pre-existence to try and usurp God’s authority and power and glory, but failed and was banished to this earth. He is now trying to stop as many of God’s children as possible from returning to God’s presence. And God knew all of this – it is part of His plan. Thus it is not a contradiction.

  33. Michael P says:

    Ralph–

    You are familiar with free will, yes? Angels, as much as humans have it. Lucifer, as he is known in Christian circles as well, chose to want equality with God. He did rebel against God, and helped introduce sin into mankind.

    As to God, yes, he is omniscient and knows full well what we will do. However, he grants us the choice. Much like a parent who knows his children will make mistakes, so is God with us. And when we do not choose him, he grieves, but must grant our freedom. Could he come in and do whatever he wanted, absolutely. But our loving of him then would mean nothing.

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