The Duty to Expose a Shameful Ceremony is Infinitely More Sacred Than a Shameful Ceremony
Richard Packham’s video is also available on YouTube
Publicly exposing the Mormon temple ceremony takes away the superficial power of secretiveness and mystery and helps people face reality. The power of mystery is largely sapped with a simple YouTube video.
Obeying God’s commandments is a form of Christian worship. God’s word tells us:
“Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says, ‘Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.’” (Ephesians 5:11-14)
Even the LDS Articles of Faith say, “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” Since many Mormons use this verse to argue that the someone’s form and content of worship (especially their own) should never be criticized, I ask: Are Mormons going to criticize my form and content of worship when I obey God by exposing shameful things?
Trade in your green fig leaf apron for a cross. What God has revealed to the children of man, he has revealed to all the children of man. Find more private satisfaction in the public, personal word of God than in the shameful ceremonies of Joseph Smith.
Tips to Christians For Using (or Not Using) the LDS Temple Ceremony Content When Engaging Mormons
- Be led by the Spirit and be respectful and sensitive to people. The challenge here is immersing yourself in the Bible so that you adopt more biblical concepts of love and respect than worldly concepts. Being loving and sensitive will often require you to engage other issues of the heart and simply point people to the true nature of God and the gospel. But the Spirit may lead you to tear down false pretensions (cf. 2 Corinthians 10:4-5) and idolatry by exposing the ceremony. It is no more disrespectful to expose the shameful LDS temple ceremony than it is to expose pervasive mold to a prospective house buyer.
- Part of the whole question of whether to reveal the temple ceremony concerns strategic and loving engagement, but there is also a power struggle that is real. It cannot be ignored. People who feel like they have secrets often feel like they have a power over other people. Mormons will sometimes refer to the temple as the only appropriate place to discuss certain doctrines. Sometimes it helps to break this superficial facade of power and exclusivity by revealing your knowledge of the temple.
- Bringing up the ceremony will often end a conversation, so be wise about if and when you do it.
- That said, I suggest teaching Mormons who haven’t been through the ceremony, especially teenagers, the three secret hand clasps. Ask them if they think secret handshakes will help get them into Heavenly Father’s presence. Many will vehemently say, “No!” Express your agreement. Ask the same people, “If Satan told you to make a green fig leaf apron, what would you do?” The responses I hear are interesting. “I wouldn’t do it!” “I’d tell him to be quiet.” I like to advise people, “If Satan ever tells you to make a green fig leaf apron, rebuke him!” If they go through the temple ceremony, they will be reminded of these things. This will help them feel creeped out by the ceremony. They should feel that way, and you owe it to them in love to help them be sober about it.
- Break the news to them. The things you have just spoken of are actually in the LDS temple ceremony. If they don’t believe you, tell them to ask their parents. Or Google. The internet has more power to deliver knowledge than the Mormon “priesthood” ever will.
- Don’t over-sensationalize the role of Satan in the temple ceremony. I recommend a good article by Jerald and Sandra called, Obsession With Lucifer?.
- Expect opposition over this. Letting the cat out of the bag will drive some defenders of Mormonism in your community nuts. But keep a sober mind that this isn’t about them. It’s about the true seekers. The inherent shamefulness of the LDS temple ceremony really causes a crisis of conscience in people that causes them to leave the Mormon Church and take Christianity more seriously. Don’t want to see a close relationship severed? That’s OK. You can at least get the word out to people who haven’t been through the temple, who you can tolerate being upset at you. It’s worth it in the long run for their own sake.
- Remind your LDS friends that this isn’t a matter of trivial humor. It’s serious. It is a matter of informed consent. People have a right to know about this all before they join Mormonism.
- Ask, “Is the Book of Mormon is sacred?” “Of course.” “Is it public?” “Yes.” “So, if something is sacred, does it have to be secret and hidden from the public?” This helps when someone explains that simply because the ceremony is “sacred” it cannot be discussed publicly.
- Ask, “Why was the temple veil torn in two when Jesus was crucified?”
- Ask, “Can you think of any examples of people being married in the Old Testament temple?”
- Ask a Mormon if they are aware of the changes in the temple ceremony. Also ask, “Are the parts of the temple ceremony removed in 1990 still sacred?”
- Express your feelings about having your pastor mocked as a hireling of Satan in the pre-1990 LDS temple ceremony. Ask, “If Protestants had a secret ceremony where we called your bishops hirlings of Satan, what would you think if I said it was too ’sacred’ to talk about?”
- Point them to the sufficiency of Christ. Share Hebrews 7 and tell them you want them to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, our great high priest. Eternal life is all about knowing Jesus, receiving Jesus, and believing Jesus as he freely offers us the forgiveness of sins and fellowship with God forever. Christians now have the indwelling of the Spirit, and our level of intimacy and fellowship with God is not dependent on whether we are in a certain building.
- Be like Jesus: “And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, ‘Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.’” Mark 13:1-2
I’ll close with a letter from an ex-Mormon Christian written to Bill Mckeever:
“Good afternoon Mr. McKeever. This email is an apology to the nasty and derogatory remarks I sent you in the past. I do not know if you remember our conversations but it was obvious that I was so deep into Mormonism, I did not realize how uneducated I sounded for defending a false faith. It is my prayer that every member of the LDS church come to the realization that Joseph Smith is one of the false prophets that the Bible warns us about. I came to my realization shortly after finding out the details of Temple rituals. I was officially removed from the membership records as of May 2005… Realizing that accepting Christ as my personal savior and putting all of my trust in him instead of Gordon B. Hinckley has made a magnanimous impact upon my life as a Christian. I want to personally thank you for distributing websites like these to bring LDS members out of the dark and into the light. Thank you for being a bold servant of Christ and May God Bless you and your co-workers always. Please feel free to post this message on your site as a hopeful inspiration to all LDS who wish to leave.”
Comments (208)
I am surprised at this. Not at all offended, but surprised. A bold move, and one I think is useful in discussion of Mormonism.
I have heard the “secrecy” of the ceremonies dismissed at not secret because all can know them, but you’ve got to progress to them. The whole milk before meat line.
I look forward to the discussion here.
Wow, this is going to get a lot of Mormons pretty ticked. It really is a bold move. I expect a lot of heated conversations!
“Trade in your green fig leaf apron for a cross.”
This would make a great T-shirt slogan. I have found that most Mormons are turned off by the symbol of the cross. Much like a vampire’s response. ;>
[...] Aaron Shafovaloff, Mormon Temple Ceremony Over at the House of Idiots, they have posted a link to a reenactment of the pre-1990 endowment ceremony in Mormon temples. Aaron Shafovaloff insists that doing so is a sacred act, because he is [...]
Mormons are turned off to the Cross because,
Regarding the “The Fluffy Bunny Nice Nice Club” post linked above (which I’m content to leave up), it seems a bit embarrassing for a Mormon to see their ceremony as comparable with sex?
This was downright evil, insinuating (even in jest) that my wife is a prostitute, etc. If this Mormon thinks that the exposure of the ceremony is “evil”, then shall they respond with evil?
Exposing the ceremony obviously strikes a really sensitive nerve. This only encourages me that the ceremony is the sort of embarrassing thing Mormonism doesn’t want outsiders to have common knowledge of, and that it is exactly the sort of shameful thing they should have common knowledge of.
Grace and peace to you, the person who slanders my wife and I, may God bless you with a broken heart and a passion for truth,
Aaron
Fluffy proves that once fact and reason leave the debate and your losing, then start the insults.
Did you never read the Bible? Jesus never once insulted anyone when on the Cross. O-yea, you guys dont trust the Bible, you teach it is flawed. Rick b
This is a very touchy subject indeed.
It is also very important that people/investigators learn this stuff BEFORE they become members however.
This is a question to the LDS – If you wanted to join a club, wouldn’t you want to know what that club stands for, does, etc?
Because when it comes down to the endowment ceremony, I have been told by many Ex-mormons that they were freaked out during the whole thing and that they wanted to just run, but because friends/spouse is there, and your not really allowed to say anything to your spouse besides whats directed during the ritual, you don’t necesarrily even know how your spouse feels about what you guys are going through.
They should re-name temple recommend cards to “Indoctrinated enough to where this wont seem toooo weird” cards.
I wonder when the LDS PR system will remove the signs/tokens from the endowment as well, because freemasonry is starting to known more and more. I didn’t even know about Freemasonry until I started looking into the LDS Church. Maybe this is too big a change though because you HAVE to give the Lord secret handshakes to get into heaven.
We need to pray for Fluffy. The mentality the person has is full of evil. As if Satan himself is starting to post.
Fluffy apologized: “It is my intent to repent of being a big fat jerk. I apologize to Aaron and to his wife for being dumb. I still think that he is a jerk for posting the movie and a jerk for trying to drive Mormons from their religion. But this was going too far. I am sorry.”
Where is the love from the LDS? How come all the LDS that claim we hate them and claim we do not understand them stand up for truth? This guy now posts this on his blog,
I might have poor spelling and grammar, but poor spelling will not keep me from heaven.
Then these LDS cannot give good honest answers, they can only call names and attack. Well just proves the love of God is not really in them. Rick b
How many of the 4,000 changes to the BoM were claimed to have been grammatical or spelling errors? Does this mean JS was dumber than a bag of hammers? If not, keep your logic consistent. If it’s good for Rick, it is good for JS. Please consider thinking before you lash out at people you do not agree with.
What does this have to do with the temple ceremonies? Instead of slamming people, deal with the issue brought to light in this awesome, revealing topic.
Hopefully we can get back to the original topic now…
As a mormon and soon to be non-mormon, the information provided in the video is spot on. One of the things I learned last year while searching the history of the church is there have been many changes to the temple cermony and also the masonic similarities. If I had known about the temple ceremony when I first went through I would have been very reluctant. The masonic similarities and the timing of them being introduced are to close together not to see them as conncected. Sorry, but God would not introduce masonic signs into the mormon ceremonies. My fellow mormons, look at the information in this blog with an open mind. Instead of defending everything, like I used to do, look deep and find the truth. By doing that you can discover eternity with God without having to try and live up to the perfection the church teached, which no one will attain in this life anyway. God bless.
> Sorry, but God would not introduce masonic signs
> into the mormon ceremonies.
Two logical fallacies in a single sentence. Circular reasoning and begging the question.
I have heard many apologetics to the whole Masonry connection from LDS who actually know it has practically been copied to create the endowment ceremony. I’m glad they were able to find the truth about its Masonic derivative. I do feel sad though that Mormons don’t even know about it. Some LDS say it is God giving new revelation of a practice done long ago, that is similar to what the Freemasons do. Just like two different vehicles can get you to the same place, if that makes sense.
My wife and I were hanging with her sister and her sisters husband lastnight. I noticed he was wearing a regular white undershirt, so I said “Hey man, wheres your G’s?” and he said “It’s practically the same except I dont have the little nipple things” – Right away his wife said “You’re not supposed to talk about those things!” – She was born and raised LDS all her life, and he was a convert a few years ago. I am quite certain neither knows what that square and compass really came from. After all, my wifes sister didn’t even know about Joseph Smiths other wives.
So what are the motives of the LDS church keeping these things secret? (granted, they are sacred to you, but anything intentionally held from the public is also considered secret).
Maybe 1) LDS leadership knows how weird it would be for one to find out about the signs, tokens, and especially penalties (prior to 1990) and there connections with freemasonry and would perhaps shake the faith of some members, causing questioning, then ultimately apostasy.
Or 2) By saying something is so righteous that it needs to be kept secret is a way to make an LDS person feel more like they are part of some exclusivity and because of its difference from traditional Christianity, further strengthens their testimony of a “restored” church.
Maybe someone else has ideas? To me personally, the in-depth rituals performed in the temple doesn’t help distance them from being called a cult, thats for sure.
I have always been respectful of the LDS people and their “sacred” temple worship. This article really opens my eyes as to the importance of revealing all heresies taught in the LDS Church. I am beginning to think that to reveal such things as “sacred” as this is showing true love. I also believe that Aaron is wise to warn us that we need to be sensitive and to follow the Spirit. It is true that the LDS will clam up and avoid such a discussion because they believe they can only discuss the temple ritual in the temple. They will cling to their inability to reason rationally by being stoic and believing they are withstanding the arrows of the devil. Remember, there is a lot of pride involved in getting up and bearing a testimony that you “know” the Church is true. With such a set-up, it takes a lot of courage to recant an LDS testimony. In this world, we live by faith and not perfect knowledge. I just want to end by praising the LORD for all the former LDS who have been courageous enough to recant their testimonies of the LDS Church and her teachings. Let us continue forth with humility, love, patience, and wisdom. Let us heed 2 Timothy 2:23-26: “Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.” May grace and peace abound in these discussions.
I can only imagine the ridicule the true Saints suffered in Moses’ day for their ‘weird’ and ‘cultish’ acts in temple. I truly feel bad for Richard Packham.
As a faithful, active, and endowed LDS person, my only response to you all is from Ether 12:26:
iamse7en,
I don’t think there was a temple in Moses’ time. They had a little different structure called the tabernacle. Your comment is meant to equate Mormonism with Judism thus giving Mormonism standing. That’s like equating over 40 slow pitch softball with major league baseball and calling it the same thing. If you want to draw a comparison, draw it with secret societies like the Masons.
So these rituals were practiced by the apostles right until after their death? Then, by an evil sinister plot, they were lost along with plural marrage and progression of mortals to godhood. Add to it, of course, the teaching that there is a mother and father god. And if you practice plural marrarge you will get to the highest level of the celestial kingdom which is only open to the FLDS these days.
If someone is depending on a “testimony” for truth, they will believe anything…..thinking of course that God has spoken to them. When Mormons get their thinking processes unflipped, they start to figure the whole deal out. Now please, if this is what the first century Christian Church was all about, don’t you think there would be even a teenie weenie record of it someplace? If what is recorded in the BoM actually happened, don’t you think there would be some evidence of it? This, folks, is not faith.
iamse7en,
Are you speaking to the LDS who mock the believers when you said,
Can you please give chapter and verse, as to the temple in the day of Moses you speak of, Since it did not exist.
I’m back from vacation and have been reading a little here and a little there on the blog. I didn’t decide to comment until I saw this post.
My only reaction was sadness. You of all Christians probably know most about the Mormon church and as such, you would know how much members love the temple and wish to keep it sacred (it is a different kind of sacred than saying the BoM is sacred … the temple to us is holy.) Yet you still post something like this. In my eyes, you have stooped even lower than all your other attacks on the LDS church. It just makes me sad. I understand your reasoning behind it, but the fact remains the same … it makes me feel sad. I’ve heard of protesters wearing garments on the outside of their clothes while they walked around Temple Square during Coference … this post approaches that lack of respect.
Let me just add some balance to the conversation. I was raised in the Church … served a mission … married in the temple … four kids … in my mind, I’ve gone the typical Mormon route of life. The first time I entered the temple before I served a mission, it was different, but beautiful. The more I attended, the more I came to love the symbolism and the teachings therein. It has brought me real happiness in my life. I have found genuine joy performing ordinances for those who have died.
We believe there is a “veil” between this life and the afterlife. The veil is thin. I have heard stories from my Grandmother about the thiness of the veil and those who she has seen. I too have had similiar experiences. I know that there are those on the other side who appreciate the work being performed in the temples.
I may be ridiculed for what I have just written, but I will never deny it. Others may try to explain it away or discount it, but they have never seen and felt what I have seen and felt.
I know the authors and various commenters of the blog may never be convinced, but I offer my two cents to others …
… who are new to the blog or who want a member’s perspective on the temple subject.
Best Regards,
Apollo (Don Putnam … real name)
Apollo, the question is this:
Will you submit your own personal testimony and experiences under God’s personal testimony of scripture, or will you submit God’s personal testimony of scripture under your own personal testimony and experience?
Apollo,
Do you have any idea what you’re messin with? Seeing dead people through the veil? Did I get that right? You’ve got a “prophet” that was involved in folk magic, seer stones, the third eye, occult practices and now (please tell me this isn’t true) you’re seeing dead people? And you think it’s a “spiritual” experience? Who are you worshiping? Where (source) does this come from? The Bible forbids it. This is not from God? I’m shocked that anyone could be seduced into this.
Fluffy Bunny and other Mormons need to be reminded that when they pipe off at the mouth and start mocking other people (their brother – yes, according to the preexistence Aaron is Fluffy Bunny’s brother), then they are in violation according to the Book of Mormon where it says:
Alma 5:30-31: “And again I say unto you, is there one among you that doth make a mock of his brother, or that heapeth upon him persecution? Wo unto such an one, for he is not prepared, and the time is at hand he must repent or he cannot be saved!”
My brother got involved with Freemasonry some years ago. It shocked our whole family and I started doing research and making field trips. This went on for many months. As the “onion got peeled” away what was left showing was very evil and completely non-Christian. Him and I had several sit-downs and when I confronted him with some of the rituals he was going through in the York Rite (namely Royal Arch Degree – 7th) he was scared and embarrased to admit it. He knew it was outright paganism. He was brought up in the same Christian home that I was, but he traded it off so that he could have business connections with the big shots in town. Faced with Bible scripture and the evidence laid before him, he repented and left masonry by moving out of town. He’s still scared to talk about some of the things because of the blood oaths. I ask the questions and I just tell him to blink his eyes twice for “yes”…you get it.
When a Mason takes a look at this ceremony that the Mormons have taken as their own they are angered. No wonder the Masons in Nauvoo were furious with Joseph Smith. When Joseph gave the Masonic sign of distress at the window at Carthage Jail one can see why the Masons ignored him.
What goes on in the Mormon temples is nothing from God. These are borrowed ideas from other groups and religions mixed with Joseph’s imagination. I don’t read anywhere in the Old Testament about Moses being taught secret handshakes on Mount Sinai.
Don Putnam (Apollo):
I want to second what Falcon said to you. If what I’m gathering from your statement is true, then I urge and plead with you in the name of Jesus Christ of the New Testament to step back and take a long, hard look at what you are involved in. You need to test all those supposed wonderful experiences with what God has said about such things. Start with reading Deut 18:9-14. Read Mormon authority Richard Bushman’s book “Rough Stone Rolling” especially the first three chapters that detail Joseph Smith’s personal involvement with folk magic. Him translating the BOM by putting a magic rock in a hat and reading words in light from darkness is not from God. God does not reveal His Word to us through tools of the occult. These things are an abomination.
You mentioned symbolism. Do the pentagrams (known symbols of the occult and satanism) all over Mormon temples and buildings not bother you? Look at the stained glass windows on the Nauvoo temple. Look at the pentagram on the Eagle Gate at State Street & South Temple. There are pentagrams all over the outside of the Salt Lake Temple above the windows. Look at the pentagrams on the planters box in the north visitor’s center at Temple Square. Check out the pentagram both in a circle and out on the upper left corner of the entrance to the History & Art Museum across from Temple Square.
If you are seeing spirits in the temple, then these are demonic hosts who have taken up refuge in Mormon temples. Don’t scoff at this. Demonic activity is very real. They are not loved ones. Demons can imitate anything out there. They can mimic the appearance of dead family members and use their voices. These are tricks and lies straight from the pit of hell. I’ve heard all this before from others who have been in the temples. The veil is not thin. It is very thick. Nobody can pass from one side to the next. Please read Luke 16:26. There are no second chances once you’re dead (Hebrews 9:27). I’ll be praying for you.
One of the big dilemmas in my questioning the LDS church is the sweet concept that “truth only feels good”.
I think that is why it is so hard to look into the parts of the church that we all have questions about. We don’t want to feel bad. But in honesty, the truth sometimes doesn’t feel good…(we are at war in Iraq, does that feel good? gas prices are $4.40, does that feel good?)
The only way any mormon initially handles the weirdness of the temple ceremony is to look around the room and be validated that “Everyone else seems to be fine with this…so it must be okay?” I don’t know how else we did it.
Was it pretty inside? Yes. Very white and delightsome. I loved getting to wear a pretty dress and a pretty veil, too. I remember my Young Women’s teacher tell me that the most important part of it all is “getting your bows just right” and she would help me re-tie them until they were perfect. LOL!
I had a seriously hard time with my endowment because I didn’t think I would be able to memorize all of what was being taught. I was lightheaded with anxiety, and the matrons had to feed me saltine crackers as I sat on the locker room floor.
I went back for almost a decade with my husband. I thought I was doing something beautiful and significant. I never really understood the whole “symbolic” part but I would try to glean something out of each experience, I would imagine spirits talking to me and try to remember every name that I had gone through for. I always hoped to see a dead person, validation right?
I mainly was sad that I never got to sit next to my husband on our date night and didn’t understand the whole veil thing. Were we doing this in practice for us? Is that big veil what it looks like in mormon heaven? Endless lines waiting to go through the veil?
Real name……Andrew Watson
I am shocked now by the temple and all its ceremonies, mostly shocked at how deceived I was to believe the “specialness”. The whole temple *thing* is the opposite of the God I know now.
God isn’t restricted to building for his sacredness, We are to be the temples of God.
He doesn’t look on the outward appearance of a person – he looks on the heart (No bows, or silly hats!)
He doesn’t need special handshakes to test me…He knows who I am with my hands behind my back!
If Jesus fulfilled the law and ordinances, why would he make me promise to live up to ALL that is in the OT/NT/BOM/D&C ? (just the Jewish laws number 613 alone!) and then have Satan come out and declare that if I don’t live up to everything I just promised, I would be under his power…there is no way to win that one!
Things are so much clearer when you read the bible, the things Jesus says and take Him at HIS word instead of filtering it through mormon goggles. Take God at his word and just read the New Testament.
Worship of God isn’t what I did in the temple, I can’t even begin to call it that. It was a well tuned machine of doing strange ordinances for dead people. Why? Why do we have to do those ordinances? I know the mormon answer…we have to help these poor people that have died. But, if I really think about it…it is so much busy work for what?
Is God just a controlling task master???
The God I know now isn’t the God of that Mormon machine. He doesn’t need it.
I just pray that every person that is brave enough to be on this blog will know that it is okay to question. Jesus looooves questions. It is okay to wrestle these things out with God. He loves to rescue us from the darkness we are in and the confusion we are in. Take this stuff to Him and let Him reveal the truth. Jesus is grace and truth and wants nothing more than to share himself with you. Praying for you…
[...] (7/10/08): Here is a perfect example. Warning, heavy [filtered profanity or slur] material ahead. “The Duty to Expose a Shameful Ceremony is Infinitely More Sacred Than a Shameful Ceremony” at [filtered profanity or slur] blog Mormon [...]
There is a book titled “The Beatiful Side of Evil” that explains the “beauty” that can be exhibited within the occult. The beauty is there for one reason only and that is to deceive and seduce people. The mask that is worn covers the hideous nature of the practices and source. The occult, white magic, black magic, and spiritualism can make people feel good. It can even make them feel special and connected with a higher power. But the source is not God.
Mormon friends, can’t you add it all up? A “prophet” who claims a new gospel and who uses magic stones to see into the spiritual realm. The development of a doctrine of God that takes people away from the God of the Bible. Teaching people that they can be gods and have their own planetary kingdoms. Temple rituals that allow people to peek into the spirit world.
Folks you have the information. Do you have the courage to face it and do what’s necessary to free yourself?
Apollo – “The more I attended, the more I came to love the symbolism and the teachings therein. It has brought me real happiness in my life.”
Sounds a lot like what my mother in law said to my wife when she questioned the temple. “It may seem weird at first, but you just got to keep going and eventually it will feel normal.”
Do some Mormons just not understand the psychological effects that repeating the same thing over and over again will do? Of course it will start to become less weird and more natural, even beautiful if you throw your own emotions into it – it will become a part of you. Children who are learning to swim for the first time typically feel scared/uncomfortable, but after they keep going and going, they love to swim and glide under water and dive/jump in.
I think its important for everyone, not just Mormons, to recognize that bad things can produce BOTH good and bad feelings, and good things can produce BOTH bad and good feelings. Just as Junelle said, the truth won’t always make you feel good. – So, instead of just believing its the Holy Spirit, it needs to be tested.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ isn’t found in secret, in some ritualistic ceremony. He has given it to ALL men, directly from God to mankind. HOW DARE the LDS leadership take it upon themselves to judge our worthiness to take part in the salvation process through a “temple recommend interview.” If you dont pay a full tithe, you cannot get a temple recommend, and cannot enter the temple, which means you and your wife cannot be sealed, and exalted into the Celestial kingdom. All because of missing 10 bucks.. The LDS church has taken it upon itself to be the judge and its prophets (especially Spencer W. Kimball) has made it clear that you MUST obey the whole Law.
Romans 3:20
“Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.”
By their fruits ye shall know them, indeed.
Why, Aaron, are you posting the works of an avowed atheist and critic of Christianity in general? Richard Packham, who created this video, hosts a website dedicated to mocking and tearing down Mormonism, yes, but he also has a website dedicated to mocking and tearing sown all of Christianity. Google Richard Packham and you will see it. Some examples of his work, in addition to this temple video, include “GOD: AN ABUSIVE PARENT,” “How I Became an Atheist: My reasons for not accepting a belief in any kind of god,” and “Probabilities: Using the favorite Christian device of estimates of probabilities, the chances that the Bible is true are almost zero.” In short, I am wondering why you are not responding to Packham’s criticisms of religion, but you are still using his work so long as it criticizes Mormonism. Can you explain? Thanks.
Because what he said in the lecture was true. I quote from atheists, Mormons, agnostics too when they publish valuable resources. Doesn’t Mormonism also emphasize that truth should be received from wherever it comes? I obviously don’t ascribe to everything atheists, Mormons, and agnostics teach, but it makes sense to selectively showcase good and true things they have to say.
Jeffrey R. Holland quoted the words of N.T. Wright in the most recent General Conference to suit his purposes (misrepresenting Wright’s larger position). Are you going to write a letter to Holland reproving him of his having quoted someone who believes Mormonism is fundamentally riddled with heresy?
Quickmere,
Kind of interesting response. When we point out Joseph Smith’s deviant behavior and practices, Mormons line up in droves pointing out the supposed failings of Biblical prophets in an attempt to legitamize Smith. So is there anything in this video of Packham that isn’t true? Your attacking him on the basis that he is an atheist. I’m going to do the Mormon “So What!” response that we hear so often in defending Smith. Can’t an atheist have “some truth” to borrow another popular Morman ditty. If something is true, it’s true regardless of the source. I didn’t hear Packham go off on his opinion of anything. He provided information…period. So your attacking him as a source doesn’t change the truth of what he pressented.
Jeffery,
The process of breaking down people’s inhibitions is known as desensitization. It’s a well known technique used by all sorts of groups in all sorts of settings…..a favorite technique of the cults. Charlie Manson used it to break down his women followers finally getting the whole bunch to committ murder. Street pimps use the process to condition girls to be hookers. It’s the old frog in the kettle routine. You know, you put a frog in hot water and it’ll jump out. You put it in lukewarm water and gradually increase the temperature it will cook and not even know it.
I appreciate your quoting from many different sources. However, my main thrust deals with why -you- refer to Packham without responding to any of his other criticisms of Christianity. It would seem one who is concerned with the welfare of the souls of men would want to counter the criticisms posed by Packham which cause some Christians to lose their way, or lose faith in God completely as he has. So while you may feel you are trying to bring people to Christ through the front door by criticizing Mormonism, the very sources you use also are helping people find their way out the back door at the same time.
Why didn’t Holland address at General Conference all of N.T. Wright’s theological material which would contradict Mormonism? Grow up.
This is starting to sound like the “how many different ways can we distract people from the content of the original post” game. This is a blog post about the LDS temple ceremony, not about all things apologetic regarding Christianity. If you want to peruse a generic site I founded, check out Theopedia.com.
As far as “growing up” is concerned, it appears my questions have annoyed or offended you in some way. That isn’t my intent. I am quite serious about the amount of efforts spent on attacking the Mormon church while people like Packham are spreading anti-Christianity on the internet. Again, it seems you are content to use an avowed atheist to prove a point while ignoring his other work completely, even though it attacks the faith of Christianity, including, of course, your own. I’m not aware of General Conference addresses that use the arguments of atheists to prove a point.
Quickmere, let’s get this straight. You’re on a blog specifically that engages Mormonism, and you assume from it that it contains the entirety of everything I ever do regarding apologetics? Also, are you saying that, in order to draw from another’s resource who is otherwise critical of Christianity, his other material must simultaneously be dealt with, regardless of its irrelevance to the particular blog post?
Again, it sounds like you’re trying to distract people from the substance of the blog post.
If you think Christendom doesn’t already address general and specific criticism of those who oppose Christianity, then you need to visit carm.org, tektonics.org, bible.org, etc. Some people are called by the Holy Spirit to focus on certain groups of people and certain areas of apologetics.
PS It should be noted that when it comes to the gods of Mormonism, I myself am also an atheist. I simply don’t believe the gods of Mormonism exist.
Falcon,
I never knew about the frog dealy. That is interesting. It runs parellel with many things in life, including sin. Sin has a very subtle but slippery slope. One small deicision to commit a sin, can lead to more and more until you are buried and you never realized how deep you were. I appreciate you bringing up the psychological name for what I was trying to get across. I feel I’m rather aware and sensitive to the psychology of humans, but have a hard time coming up with the terms.
I know the temple endowment ceremony is sacred to the LDS, but I don’t know why they feel it is necessary to keep it secret. Maybe if it was more known, those that end up going through the temple will already know what’s coming instead of freaking them out. Granted, more of the world will know about the masonic involvement, but has that effected any LDS person here who has an unbreakable testimony? Is Ralph not okay with it?
Would it make it feel less special to the LDS who go through it? I can see where a person would feel like they are more special because of it.
The changes made in the temple are very interesting to note. Instead of coming off sexist as it did when saying a woman had to heed their husband alone, a change was made to make it seem more equal. Penalties were removed – which is huge, the question is why? – maybe because it was a big turn off with the graphic nature on how one is supposed to be killed? The 5 points of fellowship, copied exactly from Masonry as well, was removed, why? – I can see how embracing someone closely like that may be a turn off to women. If these things were necesarry before, why aren’t they now?
If these changes were made because of pressure from humankind, then I would say thats a good indicator that this religion is completely man made. Joseph Smith copying masonic rituals for something that is supposed to be from God is evidence enough for me, but I guess not for some LDS.
To quickmere and/or other LDS posters: it’s been said a few times that “the temple rituals are sacred, therefore kept secret…” or something along those lines. Do yourselves a favor and show those new to the debate,like myself, where this connection exists from the Bible. I know that the early church practiced the same kind of secrecy that we see today in China, and other areas where harsh persecution is enforced. Because of such, the catacombs and the Chinese house churches are a necessity. WHERE and WHEN they meet is secret: WHAT THEY DO IN THERE WAS NOT, AND IS NOT. Hardly: I think the chinese believer would be only TOO happy to tell ANYONE, what is going on in there, but not when and where. I’m missing the sacred=secret line of thought, and don’t see a whiff of that in the NT (other than what I described above). Thanks…….GERMIT
Quickmere, another aspect in using Packham in this sense, to me, is that he is an ex-Mormon, one who actually participated in these events. As such, he is an “expert” on the specific topic, and a video was created and published showing the appropriate material. Are we to discount the material now because we don’t like all of what he says?
As to what else he says, we can discuss that elsewhere, but what he says about Mormonism is indeed applicable here.
“[filtered profanity or slur]”? So if you’re not “proMormon” you’re [filtered profanity or slur]? In that sense then, I guess I’m [filtered profanity or slur] or [filtered profanity or slur]ism. I’m also “anti-abortion” because I’m not “proabortion”. I’m also “anti-communist” because I’m not “procommunist”.
So why am I [filtered profanity or slur]? Because I don’t want people to go into eternity having lost their souls. I could care less if people want to dress up in costumes and do rituals. However the whole bag of Mormonism claims to be Christianity and it’s clearly not, so people need to be warned about it. We are commanded to expose false prophets their doctrines and practices.
Mormons have rejected the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ for another gospel. The temple rituals expose the occult nature of the religion. Joseph Smith was known to practice magic arts to peek into the spirit world. The temple rituals for the dead, with the outcome of contacting spirits (of the dead) doesn’t come from the God of the Bible. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Mormons are conditioned not to question so they are easily led.
The Mormon n-word (otherwise known as the a-word) is filtered on Mormon Coffee now. Sorry for any confusion.
WOW, Jeffery R. Holland’s comments are dangerous. It seems that LDS leaders are very bold in discounting God’s word as found in the Bible and, for that matter, even their sacred canon. This preps the followers for discarding the Bible if it does not agree with their leaders. This is a backwards approach. Their leaders should be tested against the Bible.
This temple ritual is set up within an elitist system: only those “worthy” enough (whose worthiness comes from their own works and not the grace of God through Jesus Christ) can enter the temple and “learn” everything one needs to know to enter into God’s presence. This is not about becoming gods, but entering God’s presence in a relationship that was reconciled by and through Jesus Christ. Such knowledge is found in the Bible. Temple rituals as prescribed by the LDS Church is part of another gospel. The true gospel is simple: “that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures (a case for why the scriptures are important and trump the claim by Mr. Holland), that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures (again the scriptures are used as the measuring stick; again trumping Mr. Holland’s claim), and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve” (1 Cor. 15:3b-5). This is the good news of the gospel. There is not even a hint or inference to “secret” ordinances for the elite. How sad it is that the blind have become comfortable with their blindness; just as it is sad when a child who is the victim of a lifetime of sexual abuse comes to view that life as normal and expected. Becoming comfortable with temple ritual does not mean it is true worship.
Just want to make it clear, falcon himself was not being inappropriate.
Secrecy, Elitism, and an appeal to an authority other than the bible that is ABOVE the bible (probably laid out in reverse order: with the new authority coming first) This is a prescription for a false gospel, and are the hallmarks of error near and far. In that context, the presence of occult ritual and symbolism is not (to me ) at all surprising. I’d be surprised if it were NOT there. And that is why I’m an aunt-eye. GOD help us all. GERMIT
Mormons, you sometimes use Matthew 7:6 to support keeping your ceremony secret. I can see using Matthew 7:6 to not have a conversation with someone who is stubborn and obstinate and blasphemous toward God. But to keep a ceremony entirely secret except to those who are a part of the elite of your particular church? That’s not scriptural in the least bit. It’s saying that the whole world, with the exception of active, faithful, temple-going Mormons, is “swine”. It’s saying that everyone who doesn’t join your church and get a temple recommend is “swine”.
RE: This linked blog makes a big deal out of respect for the traditions of others. Yet the LDS Church fails the test.
The blog asks and given the ordinances for the dead, which is the ultimate disrespect I give the only reasonable answer for the LDS Church:
1. Do they respect those things which others hold dear? NO Are they reverent around things which they may not personally believe, but which others find to be the pinnacle of holiness? NO Are they tolerant of other religious views? NO Do they honor the wishes of others to keep sacred those things others hold sacred? NO What is their esteem for the beliefs of others? NONE Do they conduct themselves with concern for that which others hold in the highest regard? NO
They wait until death to disregard a persons faith and offer great disrespect to the traditions and sacred beliefs of the person.
I called the LDS Church to request that I never be baptised by the Mormons after death I was told NO. Talk about disrespect!!
Mormonism requires it’s members to not question. So for those who have this gnawing uneasiness and perhaps revulsion for the temple ceremonies, they stuff their concerns. They go along because; don’t they have a “testimony” that the church is true? It’s God’s church. To not go along, to question, would be to question God. To be a good Mormon all questions must be laid aside because blind obedience is the number one requirement of a good church member. Mormons are taught that the questions they have are all from Satan and to pursue answers is to put your very salvation at risk. What a racket! The church makes more and more demands on members’ time, energy and financial resourses. And yet a member can never be good enough. The brass ring is always just out of reach.
If you’re tired of the religious grind that brings no peace, and ultimately no salvation try Jesus.
Amen Falcon! Being taught not to question but to be led by a prophet “that will never lead you astray” comforts many in the church. Members are led by blind obedience without actually looking outside their circle of influence for more information. I agree with you. As one questions the teachings of the church, it’s history, doctrine, Joseph Smith, etc. you can be made to feel like satan has got a hold of you. Also, when you start questioning, the meetings with the bishop/stake presidency start. This is where members do not want to go so they stay quiet. I say question away.
John Taylor: MORMON PROPHET “I think a full, free talk is frequently of great use; we want nothing secret nor underhanded, and I for one want no association with things that cannot be talked about and will not bear investigation.” Journal of Discourses, Volume 20, Page 264.
God bless!
A bit off topic, but I can’t help but consider something Truthseeker said. He says: “Being taught not to question but to be led by a prophet “that will never lead you astray” comforts many in the church. Members are led by blind obedience without actually looking outside their circle of influence for more information.”
I have heard many Mormons say they have done their own investigation and find out their faith is indeed true. It makes me wonder what their own investigation entails, and how they come to this conclusion.
I also wonder how many have investigaed the rituals shown above…
Anyone else notice that there are not many Mormons posting on this topic?
> Mormonism requires it’s members to not
> question.
No.
> To be a good Mormon all questions must be laid
> aside because blind obedience is the number one
> requirement of a good church member.
No.
> Mormons are taught that the questions they have
> are all from Satan
No.
> and to pursue answers is to put your very
> salvation at risk.
No.
> What a racket! The church makes more and more
> demands on members’ time, energy and financial
> resourses. And yet a member can never be good
> enough. The brass ring is always just out of
> reach.
I have heard the same parroted by other Christians, but I don’t see it in my church. Then again, with all the mistakes you made above, I can understand how your thinking is flawed.
> If you’re tired of the religious grind that
> brings no peace, and ultimately no salvation
> try Jesus.
We have no grind, we have peace, and we have Jesus.
GS, I am not surprised at your response denying the perception the church quelches curiousity. I’d like to bring up a question, though: where does this perception come from? Is it from Satan, us evil people with an axe to grind? Or Ex-Mormons who had a bad experience and are now bitter about it?
Or is it actually from Mormons themselves? I understand you cannot paint the entire picture with a single brush, but are you familiar with the movie Army of God, an LDS (probably not “officially lDS, but you know what I mean) film from some years back? If so, do you remember the scene of the curious missionary getting reemed by the “hero” for reading literature that’s against the faith? That scene stands out in my mind.
Also, you cannot discuss this without discussing the idea of faith promotion.
So, why is it that there is a perception that Mormons do not encourage seeking about the faith?
Is it because there is truth to it? I submit yes.
Oh, and is there truth to Masonic influence on the ritual shown above?
GS,
I’m pleased to read that you can say something in your posts besides “So What!”. Now that you can say “No”, let’s work on getting you to say “Yes” in agreement with your Church authorities that you have to submit to:
“It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a DIFFERENT Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons. Christ followed by the Mormons is NOT the Christ followed by Christianity.” (Bernard Brockbank, Quorum of the Seventy, Ensign, May 1977, page 26) [Emphasis mine]
“While respecting the divergent views of other people of faith, Church leaders want to be clear about the beliefs that help define Latter-day Saints. Among the most important DIFFERENCES with other Christian churches are those concerning the nature of God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.” (“Core Beliefs: Why and How Are Mormons Different”, Newsroom, LDS.org) [Emphasis mine]
This is just a short list. The Bible makes it clear that there is another Jesus (2 Cor 11:4) and that Jesus is false. There is only one right one – not two. There are a lot of Jesus’ running around and have been since Christ came. It doesn’t make them right. Many religions of the world have their form of what Jesus is. The Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. I won’t hijack this thread to list them all out. The moderators can start a new thread if they wish at their discretion.
Robert Millet, not one of the General Authorities but yet a spin doctor for the Mormon Church, wrote a book called “A Differen Jesus”. In that book he tried to outline similarities, but had to conceed the differences between the Mormon Jesus and the Christian Jesus. Pick up a copy at Deseret Books and see for yourself. Then do a thorough study in the New Testament outside of Mormon guidance and see what you come up with.
You have no grind? Joseph Smith did in JS History 1:19 where he said “for they [Christian churches] were all wrong”. Mormons started this debate. Christians will defend God’s Word.
> let’s work on getting you to say “Yes” in
> agreement with your Church authorities that you
> have to submit to
I have to submit to no one, neither do I have to agree with them when they are offering up opinion.
> Christ followed by the Mormons is NOT the Christ
> followed by Christianity
If he was talking about Traditional Orthodox Christianity (TOC), then I would agree. Otherwise, not so much.
> Among the most important DIFFERENCES with other
> Christian churches are those concerning the
> nature of God and Jesus Christ and the Holy
> Spirit.
This, I think we (LDS and TOCs) can all agree with.
> The Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible
Your unsubstantiated opinion is incorrect.
I have come to enjoy watching the Mormons avoid answering direct questions.
What happens when you disagree too much? And do you disagree? Provide specific examples where you do.
What does Traditional Orthodox Christian mean? Am I a TOC?
The differences concern the nature of God, Jesus, and the Spirit are what exactly and who says what about it?
I do not necessarilly want answers, but do this to show the inevitable circle of questions. For each answer I might receive, it would be another vague and maneuverable comment.
I’ll ask again, in case you didn;t read earlier: are there or are there not Masonic influences in the rituals above?
The topic is the temple ceremony and its usage in Christian witnessing. Please stay on topic in this thread.
GS, are you capable of a dialogue? It was P Hinkley that said that the two Jesus’s are not the same. You say unsubstantiated, I say no brainer. The Mormon Jesus is your elder brother, the brother of Satan, is not the great I AM, sweat sin, He created only this earth, no personal relationship bride/groom because He is your brother, his grace applies AFTER all you can do, He had to “earn” His Godhood and has pasty white skin.
The Biblical Jesus is NOT your elder brother, He is God, the great I AM, the only payment for sin is the shed of blood/death, not sweat! He is the creator of ALL THINGS, His grace is infinite and applies because you CAN”T do all you can do, He is and has always been God. “the word became flesh and dwelt among us” … JESUS! and he was a HEBREW, not white and delight-some.
This is not a battle over which Jesus is better or which one has more validity, but honestly GS, admit that they ARE NOT THE SAME, in any way what-so-ever. The Mormon Jesus is who Joseph Smith and the like said he was, NOT the apostles. The Mormon Jesus is their “example” or icon if you will, the Christian Jesus is their God, king of kings, LORD of LORDS.
GS, why is it so appalling for you to believe that you are not saved by the blood on the cross? is it ego, no such thing as a free lunch, because you want to be a God, equal with God … what is it?? the Gospel is so simple and so sweet, Jesus of the Bible never ever taught that you have to take oaths, know secret phrases and hand shakes or do works to be saved. He actually taught the exact opposite over and over again. “for by grace you are saved and not of WORKS” why do you have to put so much effort into making it so complicated??? My heart feels for you and the daily pressure of trying to DO enough to only then “hope” that you make it. You can know that you will be with God in heaven, and it is simply by the blood of the Lamb on the cross.
“the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing”
GSwarthout, simply restating the words of another and essentially (or quite literally) saying “no” and nothing else does not constitute the kind of constructive dialogue we’re after. Please improve upon it.
> but honestly GS, admit that they ARE NOT THE SAME
I thought I had made it abundantly clear that I beleieve the Jesus of TOC is different than the LDS Jesus and that the LDS Jesus is the biblical one.
> GS, why is it so appalling for you to believe
> that you are not saved by the blood on the cross?
Um, I DO believe that I was saved by Jesus’ atonement.
> is it ego, no such thing as a free lunch,
> because you want to be a God, equal with God …
> what is it??
I do wish to be “… heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ …” (Romans 8:17), but that is beside the point.
> My heart feels for you and the daily pressure
> of trying to DO enough to only then “hope” that
> you make it.
For the second time today someone has dredged up this old chestnut. I can assure you that I feel no pressure and that my belief in my salvation is no mere “hope”.
> GSwarthout, simply restating the words of
> another and essentially (or quite literally)
> saying “no” and nothing else does not
> constitute the kind of constructive dialogue
> we’re after. Please improve upon it.
I was wondering when the double-standard would re-emerge. The original poster stated an opinion, without the slightest shred of documentation or support. I expressed my contrary opinion. That I did so with many fewer words should be of no moment. When the original poster cares to back up his claims, I will also provide support for mine.
—
All, since this is my last post today (and I don’t post on the weekends), please feel free to pontificate, prevaricate, insinuate, and speculate to your hearts content, knowing that one particular misled sheep won’t be here to contradict you.
Have a good weekend!
What I want to know is this, Since the Time of Adam and eve down through king David, their was never a temple. Then after King solomen had it built, the Bible never speaks about all the secret things down in the LDS temple.
So a question is, How do you know what your doing was dome in the temples of old?
Then another question is, if the ONLY PERSON that was allowed into the Holy of Holies was the high priest, any one else was killed by God on the Spot, how come we have hundreds of LDS entering the temple?
Another thought is, once Jesus was crucifed the Veil was torn in to, so why do LDS sew up the Veil and rebuild temples that are not spoken of in the Bible? Rick b
It is apparent that conversation here will be much more time consuming than I would prefer. Limiting my posts to 3 per day essentially keeps me out of any substantive ongoing dialogue. At any rate, I would like to respond once more to “Germit” who said
“To quickmere and/or other LDS posters: it’s been said a few times that “the temple rituals are sacred, therefore kept secret…” or something along those lines.”
I’m unclear as to why you are putting words in my mouth. I never made this assertion here, so I would appreciate if you would refrain from misrepresenting me and my comments.
Thank you.
Please someone, anyone, show me in the NT where the apostles went to the temple, dressed up in costumes and performed the rituals Mormons perform either today or at any time in the history of the sect.
Please show me where the Bible teaches that these rituals are necessary for anything. That is, a purpose like salvation or progression to godhood. I want to know where in the Bible I can find people being sealed in the temple along with their spouses for eternity.
The bottom line is that Joseph Smith created the whole program. It doesn’t come from God. None of it was ever part of Christianity.
I thought Packham brought out interesting points from LDS canon that go against the practice of temple ordinances for the dead.
With regard to this dialogue, it is apparent that we as evangelical Christians are speaking a different language than the LDS. They use the word salvation, but it doesn’t mean the same thing as when Christians use it. When we say salvation, we are talking about eternal life in the presence of God. They talk about a general salvation in which every single person is saved from hell (in which they don’t believe, anyway). It’s when they talk about exaltation that they mean entering God’s presence, and that is the part that requires human works to attain. And, then, we’re still speaking a different language because they become gods, which they somehow seem to think is the proper interpretation of becoming joint-heirs.
I am reminded of a “Frazier” episode. Frazier and Niles get into this exclusive health spa, only to find that mere entrance isn’t good enough because there is a “gold” level. They pay the appropriate fee to get into this level and find themselves seemingly to be in heaven…until they see another door that is off-limits to them. There must be something better on the other side, and this heavenly state they were experiencing is no longer good enough. Despite being told they can’t enter the door, they do anyway and find themselve outside the club with the garbage.
As a Christian, being in God’s presence will be good enough for me; for the LDS, it’s not, and they create doors of elitism that will not lead to godhood but to Gehenna.
Quickmere: MY deepest apologies (no sarcasm here, I mean that) my last post should not have had your name in it OR I should have cleaned up the “it’s been said….” intro: I did not mean to state that YOU had said sacred=secret, although I can see where a fair reading of my post would give you that idea. You had, in fact, made no comment at all, pro or con, regarding your temple proceedings. My inclusion of your name, connected to ‘any other LDS postsers” was my idea to heighten the chance that I would get a response. By “it’s been said”, I was,clumsily, trying to say “I’ve heard it said by the LDS I’ve read etc……” this was not clear on my part, you have not made your position clear (yet) on Mormon Coffee. I will clean up my intros. My question still stands, and yours has been the only response. I may not know your response (yet) but I would like to: DOES sacred=secret reflect fairly the LDS position regarding temple rituals and ceremony, or perhaps you want to speak for just yourself. IF the answer to the above is YES, then my other question still stands: how can that be supported (as christian) when the NT is seemingly mute on that kind of secrecy. Sorry for the confusion. If you’ve given the answer to above in a more complete form in another venue,fine, direct me to where that might be. Our God is a God of order, and I’ll try to reflect, better, good ol’ dad. GERMIT
Not that it makes a huge difference, but I’m wondering if anyone knows how many active Mormons become “temple Mormons”. That’s is, what is the actual number of active Mormons that are into the whole temple ritual scene. I’ve seen numbers that report that of the actual number of Mormons listed on the church’s rolls, about 30% are active Mormons. I’ve also heard a report that about 50% of returning missionaries go inactive and are not regular participants in the Mormon church. I believe the presenter in the video above makes mention of the number of Mormons who are temple Mormons. I don’t know if that means of active members. I think he uses the number 25%. I’m wondering if this might have something to do with the Mormon push to build more temples. Then, I guess, it would give more Mormons an opportunity to become involved in the rituals depicted above.
I heard the author of “Mormonism for Dummies” on the radio freely admit, and I thought quite proudly, that the Mormon temple rituals come right out of Free Masonry. His argument was along the lines of “Why shouldn’t we use this ancient wisdom?” I get alittle exasberated with Mormons claiming that their beliefs and practices were part of the first century church. The claim is beyond bogus and reveals little understanding of the history of the Christian Church.
Joseph Smith’s history reveals that he was heavy into folk magic. So his religion is a high bred version of the Christianity of his day, early Christian heresy, early American legend and myth regarding native populations, folk magic and Free Masonry. Combine all of this with the psychological manipulation and practices of controlling people’s lives, and you have yourself your very own cult.
I hate to waste a post on this but I noticed I used the term “high bred” instead of “hybrid”. It’s early in the morning in Wisconsin.I haven’t even walked the dog yet!
This issue reminds me of the racial ban to priesthood, inasmuch as the elitism inherent in the temple ritual will be very hard to defend. I think the average Joe (the average ‘germit’) with a small amount of discernment knows that (as Ralph put it) “is no respecter of persons”. I think this is a point that even non-christians can get their minds around: again, similar to the priesthood ban. And probably for the LDS, the best defense is to just say as little as possible, and try as best they can to keep the whole thing under the sacred shroud. I can see where my LDS would be offended by Mr.Packham’s video: but your outrage centers on believing something that is just not true. CHRISTIANS DON’T HAVE HOLY PLACES: THEY ARE HOLY PLACES “Come and let yourselves be built, as living stones, into a spiritual temple; become a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For is stands written: ‘I lay in Zion a choice-stone of great worth. The man who has faith in it will not be put to shame.’ I’ve already done the cathedral thing, why would I have any use for a ’stone’ other than Jesus Himself??? Strikes me as a HUGE downgrade. GERMIT
OOOPS: where are my manners: that was 1stpeter 2:5,6 and I should have said GOD is no respecter of persons. I’m reminded that many (thankfully not all) of the Jews were tripped up by the “holy place” thing and didn’t see that the TYPE (temple) was only foreshadowing the real deal (Jesus Himself). This mistake has been oft repeated in a wide variety of ways, a historical guy like Falcon could have a field day on this. Have a great weekend, all, yes you too Mr. Swarthout: rest that brain of yours. GERMIT
Pastor Mark Cares, a Lutheran pastor in Idaho, stated in his book:
“Only about 25% to 30% of Mormons are temple worthy. One reason for this low percentage is geogaphical. Some who live a great distance from a temple don’t bother going through the process o remaining temple-worthy. That is one reason why the LDS Church is building more and more temples. But the main reason why so few are temple-worthy is simply that many do not make the grade.” (Speaking the Truth in Love to Mormons, page 45)
The parallels between the rituals that take place in the Blue Lodge (the first three degrees of Freemasonry) and the Mormon temple ritual are strikingly similar. In the Blue Lodge the main character is Hiram Abiff and the candidate simulates the death and resurrection of Hiram Abiff. The fig leaf aprons that Mormons wear are instead acacia leaf aprons worn by Masons. You will see this at Masonic funerals. As one climbs up the ladder in Masonry they are told the supposed secret name of God. This name is a pagan trinity all combined into one.
I have an extensive collection of Masonic books and much of the symbolism in Masonry is in Mormonism (square, compass, beehive, sunstone, etc.). All a Mormon needs to do is look at the garment over each breast and look at the symbols. Joseph Smith didn’t get this from God. He got it from the Masons. I reiterate my points that I made in my earlier posts at the top on this issue with the Masons.
I read recently that the Utah Grand Master of the Lodge is a Mormon…no surprise there. My grandfather was a Mason and so was my brother. They left Freemasonry after they became Christians for obvious reasons. When I mention Joseph Smith and the Masonic connection to my brother he doesn’t want to talk about it and only laughs at how duped the Mormons are for falling for a copy-cat version of rituals that came from the Masons first. The Mormons haven’t stumbled onto something that is new. God doesn’t need to borrow anything from the Masons.
I truly do not understand [filtered profanity or slur]/LDS vehemency. Don’t TRUE Christians “Love thy neighbor”? If we are truly in the dark, as you believe we are, then wouldn’t true followers of Christ love us back into the fold? Isn’t the true gospel of Jesus Christ love? Who did he visit? The harlots, the publicans, the liars, gamblers, you name it. If we are truly lost and need recovering and need to be brought to the light of Christ, wouldn’t you be more successful by creating an atmosphere of love first, then teach us truth? There is so much anger and resentment and such a spirit of loathing, that I honestly don’t see the light of Christ anywhere on this blog. God is love, and I know that even though I am a Mormon, God loves me deeply. I am His child, His daughter, a child of Christ, as are you.
Wow, I wrote the words “ang*er towards Morm*ns” and you filtered them as profanity or slur. I truly don’t understand.
Thanks for the information, RickB, Berean, Falcon. The masonic connection is something Mormons will have to come to terms with using an apologetic band-aid good enough to sustain their testimony, or it will cause them to put many things into question. Much like the BoA translation, it just smells all too fishy.
It’s interesting that paganism has found its way into the temple, all introduced by Joseph Smith… Baptism for the dead being one of them, performed in the Bible by a group of pagans in a city north of Corinth. The next being the usage of pagan rituals done by the Masons for the endowment ceremony. The next idea being sealed so that you may become a God. – To a Christian, this whole thing is outright blasphemy or “Shameful” as Aaron pointed it out.
As RickB stated, where where the temples up until Solomon’s time?
on another note – I don’t think any Mormon could possibly conclude that the temple rituals are restored from the new testament church.
I wonder how many temple going Mormons know exactly where those marks on their underwear and on the veil came from. I think some would be shocked to know it wasn’t from God. I work with quite a few LDS folk, I’m thinking if I should just ask them what they know about freemasonry. Not mention Mormonism at all, but just see if they are familiar with Masonry. Then hopefully they will look into it and connect the dots.
Jeffrey: just thought I’d pull on a thread within the thread, so to speak: “….it (the masonic connection) will cause them to bring many things into question….” I’m sure you’ve run into this, but to me the really encouraging thing is ONLY ONE THING has to be called into question, initially. And then it’s the ‘loose thread on the sweater’ so to speak. My experience with this is only through what I’ve read, but it has stood out to me repeatedly that the “first thing started” for Mormons starting to question is quite often NOT one of the big theological dealbreakers, as important as they are. Seems as if it is quite often racism, polygamy, the masonic connection coupled with the seer stone, and on and on…. For many, the theological awareness seems to come later (as it certainly will), but not as necessary beginning point. Great stuff Berean and others, I’ll be printing out some of these posts and saving them for the next blessed mishie that comes a knockin’… GERMIT
You know it’s one thing if people want to dress-up in costumes and do rituals. All kinds of secret societies and clubs do this. It’s quite another when this is done in a “spiritual” context with occult underpinnings. Someone has pointed out all of the occult symbols on Mormons temples and clothing. We’ve gone over adnauseum Joseph Smith’s involvement in magic arts. I did an intense study way back when on the occult/spiritualism realm as part of learning about deliverance ministry. Mormons, unkowingly I’m sure, are tapping into something on the dark side thinking it is religious and of God. Satan doesn’t care that Mormans are moral upright people. He wants their souls and will use their desire for “spirituality” to provide them with such other worldly experiences. Why do you think that the nature of God is flipped upside down within Mormonism? The power of seduction in these temple activities is great.
Mormons, by participating in these temple rituals, are opening themselves up to an evil force that will, in the end, turn on them. Satan always collects on his debts.
nelsonjl04, it looks like you used the Mormon n-word. “Anger towards Mormons” is not filtered.
Romans 12:9
“Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.”
We are called to hate that which is evil and I will never hate a Mormon. I do not see Mormon people as evil, but I do see the temple rituals as such. The Mormon people are unknowingly hiding that which is evil and it is a Christians duty to bring that which is dark unto the light, so that it may be exposed.
It really does hurt when someone uses the Mormon n-word. It is judging the person which we all know what the Bible says about that. I say “The Mormon gospel does not save” which in no way is a judgment upon a fellow human being. However when someone says “You’re just an [filtered profanity or slur]”, that is quite un-Christ-like.
Romans 12:14
“Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.”
That being said, I know I have probably said some things about Joseph Smith that may or may not be true, and for that I apologize. Biblically, I am to hate the sin and not the sinner. I believe Joseph Smith has been seriously taken by the Father of lies and his lie continues to live on throughout the LDS faithful. I pray for you guys that you will see through the fog and find the Light of Christ.
What is the Mormon n-word? I don’t recall using anything profane or ugly in my message. It was blocked out and I couldn’t remember exactly what I had written, but I would never use vulgarity or profanity.
Also, what is evil about our temple rituals? Do you think we do things which are sexual or violent in nature? If so, you have been mislead.
Nelson
click the link Aaron provided in the post and you will see what the Mormon N-Word is.
Things don’t have to be sexual and violent to be considered evil – in fact, I would consider claiming things that are false and attaching it to God’s true Gospel to be much more evil. Leading thousands/millions away from the True Christ and his freely given grace is much more evil to me than murder..
But now that you mention violence, that brings up the subject of the “penalties” portion found in the endowment ceremony prior to 1990. Again, another thing copied exactly from Freemasonry. I’m not sure when you first were endowed, but if you were, you would remember sliding your thumb across your throat and saying something like “…having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by its roots..” – that very sentence makes me cringe.
Do you believe that oath to come from God? If so, maybe we should all join Freemasonry because they had it before the LDS church had it. Maybe they are the only true organization. Why the change? Was it too violent and creepy so the LDS authorities just removed it? If it was so easily removed, was it not necessary to begin with? If it wasn’t necessary, why was it even in there? These are questions I implore you to seek answers to, instead of brushing it off your shoulder. Would God change a holy and “Sacred” ritual? Was he pressured by mankind? Would God submit to our will? I think you know the answer.
I believe the sealing ceremony to be evil, as it is meant to make it possible for men to become a God, and God isn’t so keen on there being other all powerful, all knowing Gods.
I believe Baptism for the Dead to be evil as it was NOT performed by Christians in the Bible, but by pagans.
If one takes off their Mormon glasses, it’s very easy to see this, but many are too afraid to even attempt this as “the spirit may leave them”.
Glad to be back. Logged in before as footdoc, but having problems getting in. Just a few observations: I guess I am a little disappointed, though not surprised, that all of this is “old” material. The agruments against Mormonism (as critics love to call it) have always been Joseph Smith, The Book of Mormon, revelation, and living prophets. As it should be! I appreciate that most critics are clear about their concerns. I wish they would go a step further and BE CLEAR that the intent of “exposing” the temple ceremony is not about “giving information” but an attempt to “expose” false prophets. Most have said that, but Postings about the Temple ceremony are not about the ceremony itself: they are a direct attack on the authority behind the ceremony. The same can be said of the Book of Mormon. It is not the content that critics often dwell upon (not enough material there), but the origin. Hence, the obsession with Smith and his seer stone. The constant reference to Joseph Smith’s supposed occult practices also facinate me. I don’t want to deviate from the assigned blog, but my point is, whatever “evidence” one wants to present “to expose the evil” of a practice (the temple ceremony), or a document (BofM), or pre/post prophetic behavior (peep stone activity) it is really about whether or not Joseph was a prophet. I know all of would agree to that. A quote from Jeffrey will suffice to make the point “I believe Joseph Smith has been seriously taken by the Father of lies”. Herein lies the chasm between believers (in living prophets) and nonbelievers. One starts with the premise that Joseph is a true prophet (and Monson as well) and finds evidence to support that belief while the other starts with the premise that he is a false prophet and seeks evidence that will support that belief. Before I say anything else, does anyone have any objections with those conclusions?
Well: we are now pushing into 80 posts for the topic and I’ve noted with interest that really only one entry (Apollo’s if I remember right) from an LDS has tried to defend the temple ritual, and that post was not that long. Everything else has been: I feel sad that….AARON is so sick that he….etc. These are legitimate feelings and expressions, but the pall of secrecy remains over the whole thing. I would not ask or expect my LDS listeners to go into temple specifics in a rebuttal, that would probably (sadly and needlessly, from my view) defile your conscience and I get that, but no one willing to defend even the concept of sacred=secret???? If your temple practices are that important to you, someone needs to man up, get over the shock value of Mr.Packham, and explain yourselves. The truth of the gospel deserves that. If God had you institute all this, step up and clear HIS good name . So far the silence, other than one very short attempt by Apollo, is deafening. I’m not trying to be belligerent, just calling em as I sees em. I knew this was going to be a hot potatoe. GERMIT
This is an emotional issue and it’s difficult for people to put emotions aside. I am referring to our Mormon friends who see the temple rituals as an intricate, foundational aspect of their religion. Exposing oneself to the facts of it, could destroy that which they hold near and dear. I think the “loose thread in the sweater” analogy previously referred to is very accurate. Mormonism is like that. The problem is there are a lot of loose threads. Once a question arises regarding the Mormon church, it’s history, beliefs and practices, and if the Mormon begins to look for answers (pulling at the loose thread)the whole garmet could unravel. That’s why Mormons have to cling so tenaciously to their testimony. The personal testimony is suppose to provide the answers. When facts contradict the testimony, the testimony is to be honored and factual evidence ignored.
This is not faith. It’s a control tactic. Being free in Christ Jesus is to be free from the religious grind of meaningless rituals that have the appearance of religion, but have no real power to save. Free in Christ. Freedom from the dictates of the law. Resting on the Savior rather than our own futile efforts. Chirst went through the pain and suffering of the Cross to provide, all who believe in Him, the free gift of eternal life. We don’t deserve it. We can’t earn it. But God offers it to us as a free gift. Accepting this gift, through faith provides us with peace of mind and releases us from the grind of meaningless religious rites. Being saved is about a personal relationship and an intimacy with Jesus that rituals can never provide.
Wow, you all are seriously comparing yourselves to the enslavement and ridicule of blacks? We “Mormons” (not even a correct term) were persecuted, robbed, raped, murdered, and driven out of our homes, constantly having to move from state to state, all the while being called the derogatory term “Mormon”. Did you know that whenever you use THAT term, you are actually insulting us? We have been asked by our general authorities to stop using that term because it was derived from people who hated us, persecuted us, who made fun of us, and we are truly not only insulting ourselves but using an incorrect term. We are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. If you want to be truly respectful of US, you will call us Latter-Day Saints. So how come you all are so offended so easily when you haven’t been persecuted by us? I am finished talking to you all. I feel only frustration here, not open conversation. I am willing to be open-minded and try to understand you, but I believe you are not on the same page. Good luck with your endeavors. I am going to church now to renew my covenants with my Heavenly Father, and work harder this week at being a better Christian, something I do each Sunday, and teach my children to do as well. Then I will come home and continue my worship through study, prayer, service to others, and visiting with my family.
God bless you all that you may come to understand God’s true plan for you and your loved ones, whatever that plan may be.
Take care, and have a blessed Sabbath.
In this age of more access to information (via the internet primarily)it is becoming more difficult for Mormon missionaries to attract and retain new converts. Also, it is becoming more difficult to retain current members as they find out about the masonic roots of the Temple rituals, Joe Smith’s multiple wives (some married to other men), the now repudiated past teachings of the Church, etc. I speculate in less than 50 years much of the current mormon temple ritual will be jettisoned (added to the current pile of content that has already been edited out). With the LDS demonstrated ability to change and adapt their doctrine and practices I would not be at all surprised if the entire secret nature of the temples is tossed aside and their many temples are opened to the public for events, etc. I read online that many of the new temples sit empty and unused much of the time as the number of people going to the temple is decreasing (especially outside Utah). Interest among Mormons in participating in temple rituals is falling and the LDS religion often adapts to current cultural trends.
One more thing:
Sacred=Secret? I’ll answer with one scripture from the Bible (which we preach and teach; my children attend an early morning seminary class every day before school and learned the Old Testament last year, the King James version)
Matthew 7:6
By the way, read in James where Paul teaches that faith without works is dead.
Duh.. James, not Paul.
Two things have combined at this time in history to work against the LDS religion. The current lack of interest by the culture in Biblical morality — the Mormon leaders positioned the Church in the 20th century in the mainstream of cultural morality. Now like Christians, they find themselves outside the mainstream – with some of their members embracing the current lack of morality in the culture. Secondly, the great abundance of information easily accessible which undermines the entire LDS enterprise. When Mormons look for a foundation on which to stand against the current cultural morality and then find that foundation is shaky and not adequate to support them some re-evaluate and look for another foundation. I thank God that everyone can have a sure foundation in Jesus Christ crucifixion and resurrection. He is the foundation that does not fail. Trust in Him alone for salvation.
nelson, nelson, nelson,
Typical “tata” (that’s trumpet intro.) Later Day Saint tactic. Hit and run, don’t engage in the discussion, if the testimony can’t be hauled out, it’s over. I pray that you find Jesus and salvation. I would have liked to talked to you about the faith/works relationship but you’re gone.
mobaby,
Good stuff! I was cheering. I get excited about the things you posted. I wish I could remember the name of the book dealing with the Reed Smoot hearing that chronicles his attempt to get seated in the U.S. Senate. Anyway, at that time, Utah Mormonism basically made a deal with the government and the culture at large to dump plural marrage as dues for entering the club of “normal” society. The government and society then cut the Mormons some slack and reconfirmed the concept of religious freedom fundamental to our country. The years from 1890 to about 1905 could really be called the Utah Mormon reformation. Since that time, Utah Mornomism has progressively moved in doctrine and practice in an attempt to look more like mainstream protestantism.
Look at the Community of Christ (formerly known at the Reorganized Church of LDS) if you want to see a preview of coming attractions. Now the concept of progressive revelation allows the Utah Mormons to dump certain teachings and practices. However they have to do it in such a way that the faithful don’t get disgruntled and join the FLDS…..which in my view is really true Mormonism anyway.
These temple rituals get changed as news about them leaks out. I doubt very much if Joseph Smith would have made any of the changes that Utah Mormonism has made. He was radical and acted with violence when necessary as was the case with B. Young and other early Mormons. They gave as good as they got when it came to battling the establishment.
Hey Footdoc, glad to have you back.
I would like to comment on what you pointed out about “starting with the premise that..” but I have agreed to stay within the Temple topic instead of Prophets true or false topic.. I would like to just point out that Christians start with the premise that the Bible is true (and from evidence and history, it has shown to be reliable and worthy of ones trust.) And it is by God’s WORD, that we discern for ourselves whether your prophets are true or not, and lets just say the track record for Joseph Smith especially, has been embarrassing (BoA, false prophecies, occultic/masonic involvement, BoM inaccuracies, polyandry/polygamy). I’ve tried your truth test multiple times, and sincerely as my wife was LDS at the time and if I was wrong, I wanted to be shown the truth, and by praying praying, God told me it was not true, so where does that leave us, Footdoc?
Nelson,
You asked me a question about evil, and I answered it. Now you’re just saying “whatever” and walking away? I don’t understand what your intentions were here. It’s unfortunate you are unwilling to stick around and actually discuss these things. Defending your faith isn’t easy, I understand, but just know that I am not out here to destroy you as a person, but instead impart what I have learned about God through His Word, and compare that to the Gospel the LDS have.
If you decide to stick around, maybe you, as well as the other LDS can answer this question for me that I asked before and was not answered.
If you were to join a club, would you want to know about its history, how it came to be, and what it’s involved with, what kind of oaths you will be taking? If you knew about the Masonic involvement in the temple ceremonies before you were LDS or while you were still in young mens/young womens, would you have maybe thought different? Or looked into you’re very own faith a little more before just jumping in?
Nelson: Greetings, hope your sabbath was restful; I’m waiting for some relative to leave me jillions and allow me a multitude of days like today. Someday. OK: I’m a dog and a swine. I love dogs, so if this were a poker hand, I might stand pat. Maybe because I’m such a pig-dog, you don’t owe me any explanation, but what of the dozens who read this post and haven’t quite made up their mind about the truth of your church. OR, are having BIG doubts, because of ,,,well, those pesky pig-dogs like you-know-whom. Are you leaving the arena so soon? Not for my benefit, but you do those who are weighing these things out (Truthseeker comes to mind, although it sounds like they are more out than in) a disservice. Really, stick around (as the Lord leads, of course)and defend HIS name and HIS gospel. As for being offended, I have no idea what you are talking about. Not wanting to have any kind of secret agenda, I WILL admit to being annoyed on occasion with Mr.Swarthouts TOO BRIEF posts. I mean this as an observation, not an insult, and I am convinced he is capable of much better. Other than that, I don’t find disagreement to be offense producing, and I don’t catch that from most of the Coffee crowd here, LDS included. Your comments about evil have my mental wheels turning (probably grinding). Evil is MUCH bigger than Pol Pot, Adolph Hitler, and Charles Manson (overtly cruel, sadistic, violent acts). But I’ll have to think about how to capture that situation in language. Intriguing topic. Hope you hang with us: GERMIT
Nelson, in reference to the term “Mormon” being “insulting” and that “we have been asked by our general authorities to stop using that term”. I ask you to supply the reference and documentation on that. You ask it of us, so I ask it of you. I say that because I find that statement unwarranted in light of the evidence. As Mormon Apostle Russell Ballard stated at the 177th General Conference: “Facts: Some facts might include: First, ‘Mormon’ is a nickname for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Members are often referred to as ‘Mormons’, ‘Latter-day Saints’, or ‘LDS’.” (Ensign, Nov. 2007). Throughout this talk Elder Ballard uses the term “Mormon” in referring to members of the church. I don’t see any statement by him condemning the term.
If “Mormon” is a derogatory title, then I guess the LDS Newsroom at LDS.org hasn’t got the news yet. Consider the article titles just today:
“Who Are the Mormons”, “Mormons Encouraged to Shart Personal Perspectives Online to Explain Their Faith”, “Mormons Find New Ways to Engage With Others”, Men on a Mission: Far From Utah, Mormons Bring Their Faith Home to Vermont”, “Arkansas Mormon Women Prepare Memory Boxes for Bereaving Mothers”, “Physician Sees Benefits of Mormon Health Code in Reducing Cancer Risk”, “Mormon Roots Grow Deep in Vermont”, “Young Mormons Bring Relief to Elderly Cut Off by Hong Kong Floods”, “Mormons Aid Flood Victims in Indiana, Iowa and Wisconsin”, “Mormon Youth Make Helping Others Big Part of Social Gatherings”. I could quote many more especially what is written in those articles.
What about McConkie’s “MORMON Doctrine” that is sold at Deseret Books and is referenced repeatedly in LDS Church manuals? Speaking of that book this is what is said of that issue: “Accordingly, unofficially and by way of nickname, members of this restored Church have become konwn as Mormons, a name which is
(cont’d)
“…is in no way offensive or objectionable to them.” (Mormon Doctrine, page 513).
When is the church going to change the name of the MORMON Tabernacle Choir?
You know what offends me? Mormons calling themselves Christians when they aren’t. Mormons want that title, but it doesn’t apply. I personally don’t feel persecuted by Mormons. I do believe that Mormons have a persecution complex today when it’s unwarranted just because someone asks them some tough questions. How many Mormons are killed daily for their belief in Mormonism? Statistics today show that more than 400 Christians daily are martyred for their faith around the world.
Mormonsism started “persecution” of Christianity in Joseph Smith History 1:19. Christianity has no choice but to rise up and defend itself and that is what we do here.
You go every week and renew your covenants. Instead of living in a conditional covenant, Mormonism, you can live in an unconditional covenant, Christianity. While you “work harder this week” to complete “after all we can do” I can rest comfortably in what Christ has already done for me completely. I will grow in the Lord, but it will be from the heart (Rom 6:17), not because of law because the lawkeepers aren’t going to make it (Gal 2:16).
Lastly, the Sabbath is on Saturday. Christians worship on “the Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10) which is the first day of the week, Sunday, when Christ rose from the dead (Acts 20:7).
It’s too bad that you have decided to run away. James 2 “faith without works” is a great topic, but not the topic of this thread. Neither was what most of what I said. Aaron and Sharon, thank you for indulging me in 1 Pet 3:15 on this one.
Just back from holidays and look at what I’ve missed.
All I can say is that we LDS teach that the true form of worship towards God has been on this earth since Adam. We also teach that all other religions/faiths/etc have evolved from this true form of worship by man’s own pollution of the truth. In this we teach that all religions/faiths out there have some form of truth, but only the LDS has the whole truth.
For example, the Australian Koori have a belief in a Dreamtime where everything on this earth (the earth included) was first created spiritually before it became physical. Hindus or Buddhists (can’t remember which) believe in reincarnation towards a perfect being, LDS teach that we lived as spirits before this life, we have this life, there is the spirit world after death, then there is resurrection/judgment and assignment to a kingdom which is similar but not the same as reincarnation.
In saying this, it is my belief that what the Masons had was in part truth and that is one reason (not the only) why JS joined the Masons, to see the ceremony and then through revelation from God change it back to its original form.
As a small aside which supports my opinion but I cannot verify so I did not use it in my above argument, I have read somewhere on the internet a few years ago that the Masonic rituals came from documents found by the knights that invaded Jerusalem during the crusades, and these were found underneath the temple. I cannot find that reference, nor can I verify it – can someone else let me know if it’s correct or not.
Nelson, I am not sure why you state that “Mormon” is a perjorative term. I have a friend who is a very devout LDS from Utah, and she refers to herself as a Mormo. I have also been reading the book “In Sacred Loneliness” and many of the early LDS refer to themselves as Mormon as well. I was under the impression the LDS is the official term, and Mormon is the more colloquial, everyday term.
I agree with Berean on this one (surprise, surprise) If Nelson is really gone, I want to say something about the “Mormon” comment. I have no problem being called a Mormon. Mormon was one of the greatest prophets ever to grace the earth. His contribution to the testimony of Christ has been tremendous. Baptists don’t seem to care and neither do I.
Jeffrey,
The temple topic IS a prophet topic. Beth Elohim/Templum: literal translation is House of the Lord. It was introduced (according to the Bible) by Solomon (How dare he add to the law! Falcon would call him a “Progressive Revelationist” I’m sure) AND clearly sustained by the status quo until Jesus made his first appearance at age 12(no coincidence). It was the center of worship for centuries. Jesus called it his Father’s house(will leave the Godhead discussion aside). He went to teach in the Temple EVERY day. Sounds like a fairly important place. Forget the ceremony. My question is where in Christendom is the Temple? This is clearly a major Biblical teaching. If the Bible is the Word of God and that is your gauge of truth, where is this sacred edifice that was so important to Biblical prophets? Why aren’t the true band of Christians carrying on the faith of their fathers? I see no revelation in the Bible commanding that they discontinue their use. Surely the Savior would have not overlooked that or at least his apostles would have discontinued the practice. On the contrary Peter and John continued to go to the Temple daily(Acts 3: 1-3, 8, 10), after the resurrection. Do did Paul Acts 21: 26-30. And who is going to build the temple that John refers to multiple times in Revelation. This is Biblical, the Word of God. Since I believe that, why would I choose any Christian sect that doesn’t practice it? Before even approaching the ceremony, at least give me a contemporary alternative. If they have a Temple, I will at least consider it. Otherwise, it fails to pass the Biblical test of validity (according to your criteria)
RickB asked why do we have the veil when it was torn in two after the crucifixion? That was the end of the old covenant and the beginning of a new covenant. In the OT only the high priest was able to pass through this veil and enter the Holy of Holies. Now in the new covenant, all who are worthy can enter through the veil (a new one to symbolise the new covenant) into the Celestial room.
As far as this type of preaching to the LDS by using the temple ceremony, yes it can be and often is offensive to LDS if you use it, as it is sacred. As Jesus said in the Bible – do not throw your pearls before swine. To most LDS this is what has happened. You do not know nor fully comprehend what is happening until you have gone through the ceremony in the proper spirit and with the proper fore-knowledge/learning about the gospel (I’ll put LDS gospel in for any pedantics). Yes the first time may be strange to some, but to me it wasn’t. I do learn from the presentation when I am in the right spiritual frame of mind, while other times I just enjoy the rest and relaxation of the Spirit in God’s house – ie I place my burden at His feet and leave the world outside.
Ralph,
Please show me from the Bible, this New Veil you speak of. It simply is not their, Jesus is our high priest, we go through him to get to the Father, we do not go through the temple, or another veil, or a prophet. Have you not read the Book of Hebrews? Rick b
Mormons can have their temples and veils and all of the rituals that go with them because they are a self-contained religion. But to claim a larger historical or even theological purpose within Christianity is really a farce. In Mormonism we get a lot of folk legends and doctrines which (Mormons) attempt to shoehorn into NT Christianity or claim as early Christian practice. This is all within the context of restoration and revelation.
As a sidebar, there is a movement within Mormonism that is called the Mormon restoration movement. Very interesting to read about who has the “truth” within Mormonism. It seems that there isn’t a consensus on “truth” among the followers of Joseph Smith.
As usual, I went to my first “go to source” (other than the Bible) regarding anything of a historical theological nature. Christian History Issue 37 is titled “Worship in the Early Church”. Topics such as: Eyewitness accounts, where Christians met, did they worship like the pagans?, high-drama baptism, from the last supper to holy communion, and early hymns, sermons, and prayers are dealt with in this issue. Now the reason I like this publication is that it’s not sanitized history. The writing is done by experts who give the reader the nitty gritty on the topic being discussed.
The article “Where Did Christians Worship” describes the evolution of places of Christian worship. Anyone who is interested can google Christian History and Biography and get back issues for $5 and a modest shipping charge.
It’s pretty tough to find Mormonism in the NT Church. Mormonism was Joseph Smith’s creation and because of a lack of knowledge in the historical and scientific fields of study, the gullible of his time would accept his revelations as truth. There really is no excuse for that today.
Defender,
Where is the Sacred Edifice in Christianity?.. In Christians themselves.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17
1 Corinthians 6:19
2 Corinthians 6:16
Ephesians 2:20-22
God lives within us and all one needs is Jesus, for He is the ONLY way unto the Father.
Temples will fall, and can be broken. However, the saving grace of God who is within those whom have faith in Him, endures forever.
Biblically, I don’t see where rituals in temples are used for salvation and exaltation. I see them shown as places of worship, offerings, and sacrifices.
If you were to have a restoration of the Biblical temples, where are your burnt offerings, sacrifices, etc?
It’s not you in the temple, it is God in you.
Jeffrey: 100% on target. And to all LDS, including those I’ve accidently chased off: why stop at temple reconstruction while you are busy reconstructing things. Jeff has mentioned sacrifices, but why not the entire Levitical priesthood (your Melch. version looks incomplete by comparison), feast days, circumcision (this might not be a best seller in the 3rd world), kosher diet, and this list could get VERY big, very quickly. Why so picky about a FEW aspects about a FEW things (and MASONIC aspects, at that) Is this not JS at his ADHD best (or whatever they were calling hyperactivity back in the 1800’s). Grab this, ignore that. There doesn’t seem to be any rhyme or reason, but then maybe there is order there that this pig-dog just doesn’t appreciate. GERMIT
Defender (formerly footdoc):
Glad to see you are back. I was wondering where you went after you read the false prophecy from Joseph Smith in History of the Church, Vol.2, page 182. I gave you the full quote as you asked and then you disappeared. Did you go buy the 7 volume set? I hope you did. LDS members would serve themselves well to learn the history stated therein especially when it comes to your founding prophet.
Back on topic, as Jeffrey stated in listing out the details of where the temple fits in with New Testament theology, I want to ask you to explain to me what Jesus meant in John 2:19-21 especially verse 21.
Was Peter and John going to the temple to do ordinances that the Mormons do in their temples? No. It said they went there for prayer. The Christian church was being established and churches weren’t built yet. I can go to any building and pray to Heavenly Father while the masses sitting in that building are praying to somebody else. I’ve done this in Catholic churches when people are praying to Mary as a mediator. I pray to Jesus (1 Tim 2:5). I’ve done this in Mormon wards. When Mormons are praying to the Mormon god (heavenly father) and not through Jesus Christ of the New Testament because it dishonors heavenly father to do so according to Mormon thinking, I am praying to God through Jesus Christ.
When we get to 1st Corinthians we never read again of the apostles going to the Jewish temple for prayer. Paul liked going where the future Christian converts were going to be to engage them in dialogue. He went where in Acts 17:17? When I want to reach Mormons I don’t sit on my hands here in my house waiting for a knock on the door, I go to the Mormon wards where the Mormons are just like Paul did with the Jews in the text in Acts 17:17. That is biblical.
See, there are some things that I know. I know that neither Jesus, the apostles or any NT Christian wore “sacred undergarmets” with masonic symbols on the breasts and navel. I know there were no Christian temples. I know (see previous post) what ordinances and worship style the NT Church practiced. I know there was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem (the third one there) and that neither Jews or Christians performed rituals as those demonstrated in the video above.
I know that Jesus is not the offspring of a mother and father god. I also know that God is not an exhalted man and I know that men won’t become gods. I know that Mormonism cannot provide the pathway to eternal life. I know that Jesus is the Christ and through His sacrifice on the Cross and the grace that is extended to us by the Father; by faith alone I have received the gift of eternal life.
Jesus frees people from the law and the tyranny of endless religious works. We have no righteousness of our own a apart from the Blood of Jesus. I know this and bear my testimony.
“See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. For in Christ all the fulness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with himin baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore, do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ” (Col. 2:6-17).
The issue of others trying to enslave us through rules and regulations is not new. Christ is the reality of our salvation. Anything we add to it as humans is not the reality of salvation. What JS teachings do is rob Jesus Christ of His Deity and His power to save us.
Jeffrey,
Nice quotes. Unfortunately, you haven’t stated anything I don’t believe. Just because we are the temple of God doesn’t answer the question of whether an actual temple is necessary or not. If that were the case why command a temple be built…ever, including old testament times? Certainly the temple is a place of prayer and worship. Maybe you should review the atheist “informants” video if you have questions regarding sacrifice and offerings. Perhaps he left that part out. If Jesus is the only way to God, why doesn’t the Christian world allow him to dictate the requirements necessary? I am curious if you believe in any essential ordinances…let’s pick Baptism to start.
As for Berean, let me get this straight. You are saying that praying to the Father in the name of Jesus is praying to a false God. I suggest you refresh yourself with Matt. 6: 5-7, 9 John 17: 9, 15, 20. I would also like to hear where Jesus commands his followers to pray to Him.
Falcon: I see a lot of I know’s. Either you are a first hand witness of something that happened or didn’t happen (I am confident you are not John the Beloved) or you received revelation about the subject. Certainly, the first is not the case. If you have received personal revelation, then you are out of line with Christian dogma. If you insist that personal revelation is real (which I would agree), then why the split with traditional Christianity and also please show me Biblically when a person received a testimony of something that did not happen or that was false.
I am still on the topic of the temple. I am just establishing that the arguments presented so far, from the Bible, are not convincing. Temples are an intricate part of Biblical history, Jesus called it His Father’s house, the apostles went to the temple and no command exists to discontinue its use. By the way, LDS temples are based on a commandment from God, and would be built whether the Bible mentioned them or not….
Defender,
How sad that you choose to defend the teachings of JS et al rather than the Bible. As with all LDS, you work from the faulty premise that the Bible is translated incorrectly and practically worthless unless it measures up to JS and his teachings. Your article of faith should say: “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is “interpreted” correctly…” There is really no translation done with regard to JS “translation” of the Bible. That would require scholarly study of the documents available. I have a question for you: why was the JS translation not completed by some other “prophet” after JS was killed?
“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands” (Acts 17:24). One reason the temple in Jerusalem was built was to centralize worship (there was only one temple, not temples). During the exilic period, the synagogue came into existence, and the Israelites learned that they could worship God from where they were. Before, the temple was the place where God was present, but that all changed with Christ and the Spirit being sent after His death and resurrection. That’s why Paul writes: “Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple” (Romans 3:16-17). It’s sad that you don’t find arguments based on the Bible to be convincing. I just wish you would consider that there just might be something wrong with LDS belief system if the Bible has to be attacked and relegated to insignificant status in order for LDS doctrine to breathe.
All of these scriptures speak of believers in Christ Jesus being the temple, therefore, there is no need for a temple during this dispensation of grace. God made us His dwelling place. Only believers on Jesus, with the indwelling Holy Spirit, the body of Christ are His temple.
1Cr 3:16-17 “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.”
1Cr 6:19-20 “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are
God’s.”
2 Cr 6:16 ” And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
Eph 2:20-22 “And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”
Jesus also prophesied about the destruction of the temple.
Mat 24:1-2 “And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
This was fulfilled in AD 70 when Titus, and the Roman armies he was in charge of, literally took each stone apart in order to get the gold that had melted from when they had burned it down. God’s prophecies are detailed and accurate. There will not be another temple until the time of Jacob’s Trouble, and you do not want to be here for that.
Defender: I’m going to “waste” a post, probablymy 3rd and jump in: where do you get the strange idea that traditional christians do NOT believe in personal revelation?? I personally do not know of ANY christian that does NOT believe in God speaking to his children early, often, and individually. What we do NOT believe in is placing our subjective, private, understanding of what HE said as a stronger, more reliable, more AUTHORITATIVE source of inspiration that God’s holy word. Granted, our interpretation of that word may be in error, but we are admonished to let our lives be led by what God has revealed in His word, and THAT is a corrective to HIS other words (and HE is always talking), NOT our experience giving the correction to HIS written word. Don’t the words of your scriptures and those of the current living prophet hold sway over the individua testimonies of Grant Palmer, Mr.Dehlin, Todd Compton, and YOU ?? God reveals HIMSELF daily, but the orthodox view is to keep these revelations in a checks and balances (see Acts 17:11) to make sure they aren’t last nites hungarian goulash instead of the Holy Spirit. The temple was necessary , as circumcision and many many other parts of Judaism, as a foreshadowing TYPE. When the REALITY that these things predicted arrived, the TYPE was no longer mandetory, though not necessarily evil or wrong. Replaced by the BIG DEAL, and for most of those types, that big deal is Christ Himself: the ONE who hold the PERMANENT, INDESTRUCTIBLE PRIESTHOOD: see Heb.Chapter 7. Most of what you post (and this will sound condescending,excuse me in advance) shows you don’t get the old covenant/new covenant thing. GERMIT
DOF,
Why the name change? You been lurking out there waiting for a chance to get back in the fun?
I’ve been waiting to pull this out. “I don’t need evidence from man, I have my testimony.” Man that’s fun and easy. Takes no effort and wow the authority it gives me.
Hay I get personal revelation all the time and it’s perfectly acceptable within Christian dogma (please see First Cor. 12-14). But my personal revelation lines-up with the Bible. I’m no loose cannon. Joseph Smith and other false “prophets” were loose cannons. I can give you a list of the false prophet hall of fame if you wish.
So you don’t think there are false prophets in the Bible? Check out the OT you may find one or two and I think there was a constant warning regarding false prophets in the NT. There’s a test for false prophets and that’s one test Joseph Smith passes with flying colors.
Actually, I don’t need personal revelation to “reveal” to me the “I knows” I posted above. Find a legitimate book on early Church history (I can recommend a few) and it’s right there (or not there depending how you look at it) in black and white. No sacred underware with Masonic symbols, no Christian temples, no temple Masonic rituals, no plural wives, and no vast conspiracy to keep anything out of the Bible. That’s enough right there for an open and shut case that Joseph Smith was no Christian and Mormonism is not a Christian religion.
Now don’t get me wrong, if you want to wear sacred underware and dress-up in costumes and do rituals that’s your right. But don’t be so disingenuous as to call it restored Christianity. I think you need to look at “restored Mormonism”. Some of your religious relatives have moved on while others have moved back. Utah Mormons seem to be stuck somewhere in the middle trying to figure out how they can look and pretend to be protestants. The temple video is a real “truth buster” as far as that’s concerned.
jackg:
Interpretation and translation are the same thing but for one difference; Interpretation is changing one thing to another verbally, and translation is changing one thing to another in written form. So the article of faith you quoted is correct.
Hi guys, I thought I’d drop by and read your messages. I won’t argue with you, because you won’t change, and neither will I.
One thing I ask is that you stop accusing me and my Mormon (which I don’t mind at all being called, by the way) friends evil or lost or having no relationship with Christ. I live a good, clean life and teach my children Christian values and to look to Christ for their Salvation. I’m saddened that you think of us as evil-doers.
Defender of Faith: Don’t waste your breath, you can’t teach here.
Have a blessed day!
Jackg,
I did not mention one teaching of Joseph Smith. In fact, I purposely used only biblical references for the sake of my audience. How can you accuse me of defending Joseph Smith and not the Bible when I haven’t mentioned one thing he said and used only Bible references?
Jackg,
I do find the Bible to be very convincing… just not your interetation. The Christian world has found the Bible to say just about whatever it wants it to. I only need to site the schism of Christianity with its innumerable sects.
At least we have established that the Temple is intrinsically Biblical. We may argue what was done there, was it was for, etc. Please show me evidence from the Bible that they did not wear funny clothes. If Aaron’s clothing in the Tabernacle is not bizarre, I don’t know what is. Bottom line: He did what the Lord commanded, regardless of its pecularity.
I feel for my Christian apologetics on some other websites, because they will not admit that there may be some errors in the Scriptures. Prophets have never claimed to be infallible. But atheists, agnostics, etc. continually rip Christendom scripture because of blantant mistakes that nobody will admit to. The Bible has errors, the Book of Mormon has errors (which their prophets will fess up to)…but that does not disminish the validity of their testimony of the Christ. I can accept scriptual errors because the letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life.
nelsonjl4,
“One thing I ask is that you stop accusing me and my Mormon (which I don’t mind at all being called, by the way) friends evil or lost or having no relationship with Christ. I live a good, clean life and teach my children Christian values and to look to Christ for their Salvation. I’m saddened that you think of us as evil-doers.”
That is a perfect example of what is wrong with mormonism. Your own righteousness of living a “good, clean life” is entirely inadequate. In fact I would submit it is an affront to assume that your own righteousness has any part in your salvation, even when coupled with Christ. If you seek to add anything to Christ, you in essence say that His death and resurrection are inadequate to accomplish salvation.
DoF,
“I can accept scriptual errors because the letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life.”
Ironic that you quote Scripture (out of context and incorrectly, but anyway…) to claim that Scripture is infallible. What if 2 Cor 3:6 in wrong, that kind of leaves you in a pickle, doesn’t it?
Your argument about the many sects of Christianity is specious. While we differ in practice (i.e. baptism), every true Christian church holds to the same basic tenets: justification by faith alone, the imputed rightouesness of Christ, His ssubstitutionary atonement, the inerrancy of Scripture among others. No Christian church differs from another on the essentials of how a sinner is reconcilled to God and saved. We disagree on secondary issues but true Christians are in agreement on every essential doctrine.
My wife and I went through te temple in Washington D.C. and there is nothing of God going on in that heretical edifice. Beautiful on the outside, but inside it is full of spiritual death.
So Arthur? I can say I have faith in Christ and be saved no matter what I do? Steal, be dishonest in my dealings with my fellow men, swear, commit adultery, abuse my children…etc. and it doesn’t matter as long as I have faith that Christ died for my sins? My point was that I am an honest, upstanding member of society. I teach my children to be honest, kind to others, help the needy, love their neighbor, basically the commandments of God. I don’t understand why God gave us commandments if he didn’t intend for us to keep them? Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” Why are you angry because I said I live a good, clean life? Don’t you lead a good, clean life? I would assume you do since you profess to be Christian, and every Christian I know tries his or her best to live a good, clean life. What did I say so wrong? Anyone here want to back me up on this, or is it that no matter WHAT I say, I am wrong because I am a Mormon?
I know that unless I have faith in the saving grace of Jesus Christ, I can not enter into my Father’s Kingdom. I can learn to keep ALL the commandments ALL of the time by the end of my life and it will do me no good without the saving grace of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Only He can let me in. You can be as angry as you want at me, but you cannot take away this knowledge I have, and the love in my heart that I feel toward my Savior for what He did for me.
It’s interesting how easily offended and angry you all get. True followers of Christ would be slow to anger and quick to forgive.
Nelson, I don’t think anyone on here is angry at you. Impassioned about the subject matter, yes. I think the purpose of this blog is to debate, and at times, to argue about the most important things in the world. There is nothing more important than a person’s relationship with God and the way they view God. There is so much at stake here. We believe that your eternal future is at stake. I know you find that ludicrous, but please view the sparring on here as concern for you. You say that the saving grace of Jesus is what will get you in. Into where? Heaven in the traditional sense, meaning with God? Or the Celestial Kingdom? In your theology, the grace of Jesus alone will not get you to the CK, but ennables you to escape hell and take part in the resurrection. You believe it is His grace IN ADDITION to works such as getting married in the temple, etc. that gets you into the CK. His grace plus “all you can do”, as LDS say. In classical Christian theology, nothing we do ennables us to enter God’s presence. It is His grace alone. But that doesn’t mean license to do whatever we want. Because I am saved, I live to please God, NOT because I please God, I will be saved. And now, I am expecting a reference to the second chapter of James….
Nelson “I live a good, clean life and teach my children Christian values and to look to Christ for their Salvation.”
I guess you should be expecting an applause and a pat on the back from society… I appreciate you’re attempt to be a good human being, honestly, because it creates a lot less sin in the world. However, what do you expect from God when our works are as filthy rags? (Isa 64:6). Do you think God will say, wow, you gave me 145 filthy rags, here’s your Goodhood?
Romans 3:20 NIV
“Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.”
Romans 3:9-12 NIV
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[c]
Do you think you have anything to offer? No, you do not. Only Christ had something to offer, and He gave it, so that we may live. For that, Praise be to Him! Biblically, God is pleased when we work hard to spread his Gospel, but that in no way has anything to do with your salvation. He expects it of those whom have received Him.
The article of faith should read “His grace, after that, do all you can do to show the gift you have received to bring others into Christ, not for your own celestial paycheck.”
Defender, unfortunately you have stated nothing to show me that temples are necessary for salvation.
Nelson, I have never called a Mormon an evil person so maybe its someone else your talking about. I will say the practices you do, unknowingly to you, are evil, though. There is a difference there.
DOF: thanks for your posts, they reflect your effort: do all the ’schisms’ prove something about the trustworthiness of the bible, and/or whether or not we have the true gospel?? There are now 110 different schisms from what JS started. You’ve been around for just shy of 200 years. When your restored thing has been around as long as orthodox christianity, at the present rate, there will be 1100 schisms of your group. And that proves what really?? I’d say not much. People make choices and always try to improve what they’ve got, whether that’s an improvement or not. AND as AARON noted, groups within the orthodox umbrella, and that’s a wide variety including the anabaptist traditions, roman catholic, eastern orthodox, mainline protestant, and charismatic,(to just name SOME) ALL agree on the essential tenets of the faith. This gets to the spiritual unity of the church, which is a hard one for the LDS to get ahold of , because we are not tithing to the same monolithic, mall producing, Mason promoting, machine. Have a great Tuesday. Again: like your posts. GERMIT
NT Christians did not wear sacred underware with Masonic symbols, dress-up in costumes to wear in temples (because they didn’t build any, and perform rituals (in the temples they didn’t build). They didn’t practice the priesthood because they saw Christ as the High Priest. THESE ARE FACTS. I figure if I say it louder maybe our Mormon contributors will hear it.
No sacred underware with Masonic symbols, no Christian temples, no Masonic temple rituals, no priesthood blah, blah, blah, blah……… It wasn’t left out of the Bible so as to create a great apostasy from which the Church needed to be restored. Please do some scholarship. There’s nothing at stake here except your immortal soul.
You know what? This site is so full of contention and anger that I simply cannot wrap my heart around it. You are trying to convince me that my heart is in the wrong place, which shows me that you are judging my heart, and that turns my listening ears off immediately.
If anyone is arrogant in their faith, it is all of you. Have you stepped back and listened to yourselves? You are so full of judgment and contention that I cannot feel the love of God anywhere here.
If you can answer me these questions with true doctrine from the Bible, then I could be persuaded to stick around:
Who did Christ pray to when He was in the Garden asking for the cup to be removed? Who did He pray to on the cross when He asked “Father forgive them”? Who was He praying to when He said, “Father I commend my spirit”? And when His disciples asked Him when His second coming would be, He answered that no man knows, not even HIMSELF, but that only the Father knows. Tell me then, how could the FATHER know but not HIMSELF?
These questions were posed to me by a woman confused by HER religion (Baptist). So you answer them for me, okay?
And when did I ever claim to be better than you or anybody or that I believed that my works are my salvation? In fact, funny thing, I was just reading my Bible and came across a passage that reads:
“As the Father hath loved me , so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, ye shall abide in my love; even as I HAVE KEPT MY FATHER’S COMMANDMENTS, and abide in His love. These things have I spoken unto you that my joy may remain in you and that your joy may be full.” St. John 15:9-11
I strive daily to keep the commandments, not to puff myself up and to believe that I am better than anybody else, for this is sin. I simply do it to show my love to my Savior for what He did for me.
Look, I can’t say ANYTHING right here. You want me to deny my faith, and I won’t do it. Take care.
One more thing,
You assume that because I am a Mormon, that I haven’t read all the literature you mention, but I HAVE. I have read and reread and judged for myself. I have visited other churches to find the truth, and found it in the LDS church. I prayed to God, not your God, not the Mormon God, just God, and felt a joy in my heart when I chose to stay in this church. I live this doctrine and strive to keep the commandments because it brings me a peace and joy that the world cannot offer. You are so angry by our doctrine, when you sit back and basically tell me I’m going to hell for what I believe and practice. Well if hell is anything like the Mormon church, sign me up!!
Megan, Where does classical Christian theology come from exactly?
Look, I have a busy life with three active teenagers and church duties and college and a husband, and HAM radio (a hobby), and so much more. I simply don’t have time to keep worrying about trying to convince you all that you’re wrong about my faith. It is impossible, but Megan, thanks for being kind and not contentious. I’ll listen to you any day and even consider your words, but if anyone ever tells me that what I practice is EVIL, then I won’t listen, because I truly believe they are from God.
DOF: your wrote “the LDS temples are based ON A COMMANDMENT FROM GOD AND WOULD HAVE BEEN BUILT WHETHER THE BIBLE MENTIONED THEM OR NOT….” well, that about says it: why are we bothering with exegisis?? Once again, JS gets a pass on the ACTS 17:11, and if he says God told him, well, God told him. Reminds me of a recent Ralph post where he said he would have someone killed if God told him (can’t remember, Ralph if you included the prophet’s input on that or not, sorry for the shakey memory) This “God told me card is TROUBLE: and it is NOT limited to things LDS, the same thought has caused untold trouble within orthodoxy as well. That’s why God left us a sure lamp unto our feet and light unto our path. WE (ALL) NEED THAT LIGHT. Germit, more than most. BLESSINGS.
Off Topic, but here goes.
Who was Jesus talking to in the garden and on the Cross? He was talking to the Father. One God, three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Since time is a consequence of creation, the Son pre-exists all time and is thus eternal like the Father, and indeed His timelessness is one of the attributes that manifests Him as the divine Son, worthy of worship. Divinity is an absolute term that allows no degrees….just like pregnancy has no degrees. If Jesus is not fully God, he is not really God at all, and thus to worship Him is not piety but idolatry. God’s being is not divided, and yet the persons of the Godhead are truly distinct from each other. God is undividedly one and yet irreducibly three. Along with this is the doctrine of inseparable operation. That is all three persons are present in each and every divine action.
Nelson,
Sorry if my manner is too caustic for you. I’m a passonate guy who has a strong committment to Christ. I take the defense of the Gospel seriously, but mean no direct insult to those who follow a different path.
DOF: sorry to come back to you so much, but there don’t seem to be many of you children of Zion hanging around, I’m trying to not be a meanie. You said “At least we have established that the temple is intrinsically biblical” This isn’t news to you, probably, but IN THE BIBLE, and MANDATED BY GOD TO ALL DISPENSATIONS, are two radically different things. There a jillion things in the OT that are “intrinsically Biblical” but that doesn’t get at: does God want us to put (fill in the blank) in practice today??Pinheaded pig-dogs that we are, we are not likely to glibly swallow “God told the Prophet..” so we’re back to the NT. Do you have a response to the point that Peter,John, Paul, etc were in the Temple for prayer and evangelism, not as a ‘model’ to follow. WOW: I’d never thot about it, but wouldn’t that mean the Gentile believers would have to become JEWISH proselytes to go in there?? Are you going down that road ?? Why the vaccuum of commandment regarding this temple thing for NT believers ?? Are those some of the ‘precious things removed’ that LDS talk about?? I’ve worked off lunch: you are slugging it out like a warrior, may truth lead us all to love. GERMIT ps: hard to PROVE A NEGATIVE reg. the underwear in the Bible, just ask GSW if you can find him…absence of evidence and all that
Defender,
Biblical exegesis is something the LDS Church does not bother to teach its members. Consequently, its members, such as yourself, find your only defense to be to attack the “interpretation” of someone who is in love trying to reveal God’s simple word and truth. I would appreciate it if you would be so kind as to point out the error(s) you see in my exegesis, and then correct me with yours. I believe the text I quoted was fairly straightforward. The centralization of worship is in our hearts, not in buildings made by human hands. The “endowment” you believe to be necessary for your entrance into God’s presence is an empty system of secret handshakes, secret passwords, and new names. I call it empty because these don’t get you into God’s presence–only the reconciliation effected by Jesus Christ on the cross and by His resurrection accomplishes this. To believe that such a temple endowment is necessary is to say that the Work of Jesus Christ was insufficient and that we must do these things to complete Christ’s work. It’s your prerogative to make such a claim, but I cannot refrain from proclaiming the Jesus Christ Who IS mighty to save because He is God, He died on the cross for my sins, and rose again that I might overcome death. I don’t need to learn secret anything because my God does not work in the dark. He brings all His work into the light. This idea of being worthy enough based on ones’ obedience is not found in the Bible. Holiness is the work of the Holy Spirit; it is not anything that we can achieve in and of ourselves.
Nelson, translation and interpretation are not the same thing. With regard to your 8th AOF, if the LDS Church truly adhered to it, the KJV would not be the official translation of the Church. BTW, the JS Translation is a misnomer. It would be correct to call it an addition; it’s not even an interpretation.
Nelson, I have a good Mormon friend who I have gotten in many theological discussions with. One time after a lengthy discussion, she drove home and realized that I believed she was going to hell. She felt very hurt and asked her husband, “how could Megan be my friend and not think I am going to heaven?” She knew I was her friend and of course I love her. Her husband said, “Maybe you could look at it as Megan caring about you and being worried about you.” Keep in mind, they are devout LDS, but I was impressed that her husband thought of it that way instead of being offended. Last time we got together she asked, “So don’t you think I’m a good person?” I laughed and said, “Of course I think you’re a good person!” Now she gets it that I don’t believe being “good” is good enough. In fact, one of the things that the Enemy uses is to convince us that we can be good enough and earn our way to heaven (CK from your perspective). That’s why, even though Mormons go to the temple to honor God, their work there could be seen as a tool of the devil, because they believe their temple work gives them merit to enter the CK. You believe in grace plus works. I believe in grace only to make me right with God. The good works I do are an expression and manifestation of the Holy Spirit living within me. But they don’t get me to heaven. There are many differences between Mormonism and Christianity (yes, I know you believe you have the true Christianity), but the differences that tend to get us hot and bothered are the nature of God and the whole grace plus works thing.
I had a really good read of the verse used above and something hit me about it – Eph 5:11-14 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says, ‘Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.
What does the second sentence say? “For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret” What is being done in this video? It’s discussing things that you purport the LDS do in secret. According to this verse, the video is shameful and so to are all who talk about the temple ceremony.
Yes the first part says to expose the “unfruitful works of darkness”, but when put in with the second sentence, to me, it means that you should say the temple is a work of darkness, but not to pull out the transcript and go through it with people. So you expose the temple and thus what is done inside as being “unfruitful works of darkness” but you do not speak/discuss the “things that they do in secret” inside the temple.
Nelson,
First off, I do not hate you, but have you read in the Bible that their are false teachers dressed in sheeps clothing trying to kill us? What about the false prophets, or Gal 1:8-9 speaking about a different gospel. You in fact have a different Gospel.
Then you say you feel a spirit of contention from us believers, let me remind you that at the very beginning of this topic, the so called fluffy bunny LDS member said Aarons wife was/is a prostitute and then apologized but the said I am dumber that a bag of hammers, I see An LDS member having a spirit of contention.
Then I see no evidence of this Mormon Cop out of the Spirit of contention issue in the Bible, other wise Jesus had the Spirit of contention when he made a whip of Cords, spoke of Hell, called people Child of the Devil, said to his own followers Fools and slow of heart. Rick b
Ralph,
First off, you never should me the verse about God creating a new veil, then when I said the veil was torn in two, God tore it in two at the death of Jesus on the cross. God tore it in two because we do not need the temple or need to pass through the veil.
DoF said
Please give me chapter and verse, if I recal correctly, God did not command a temple to be built, it was David who wanted to build one, and God said no, Davids son would, then the glory departed the temple, so it was nothing more than an empty temple. Rick b
RickB,
We find the reason why David wanted to build a temple/house in 2 Sam 7:1-7 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the Lord had given him rest round about from all his enemies; That the king said unto Nathan the prophet, See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains. And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the Lord is with thee. And it came to pass that night, that the word of the Lord came unto Nathan, saying, Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the Lord, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle
Note the bold – it says that God has not lived in a house SINCE Israel left Egypt, but used the tent/tabernacle. This implies that there was a house for God while the Israelites were in Egypt, and possibly before then.
The reason David was not allowed to build the temple/house of God was given in 1 Kings 5:3-5 Thou knowest how that David my father could not build an house unto the name of the Lord his God for the wars which were about him on every side, until the Lord put them under the soles of his feet. But now the Lord my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary nor evil occurrent. And, behold, I purpose to build an house unto the name of the Lord my God, as the Lord spake unto David my father, saying, Thy son, whom I will set upon thy throne in thy room, he shall build an house unto my name.
David was a king of war, but God promised Solomon would build the temple. If God did not want the temple built then why promise David that Solomon would build it? Why does God imply that He had a house in Egypt?
Ralph, in the larger context of Ephesians 5 it is clear that Paul was mainly dealing with sexual immorality. It would indeed be inappropriate to outline, in detail, what the sexually immoral do. Thus, the degree of articulation should be chosen with discernment and caution.
That said, I take it from Paul’s inspired writing that, as a godly principle, we ought to expose the “works of darkness”, which are inherently shameful and embarrassing, but not articulate that exposure in a way that would cause people to be tempted with filthy imagery in their minds. Rather, we should shed as much appropriate light as will help bring appropriate conviction (not temptation). Jesus, for example, exposed and indeed “spoke of” the Samaritan woman’s multiple “husbands”, but he didn’t go into detail. Paul “spoke of” the sexual immorality of a person in 1 Corinthians 5:1, but didn’t “speak of” the matter with unneeded detail: “It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife.”
There is nothing sexual in the temple ceremony that warrants a lack of specific articulation, but there indeed are “works of darkness” which need exposure and visibility to the world. Given the specific nature of Mormonism’s ritualistic secrecy and the power of that secrecy over other people, it is exactly the kind of thing that warrants detailed exposure.
After negatively exposing the works of darkness, Christians are to positively shine forth the sufficiency of Christ’s priestly work. The gospel of Jesus Christ shines forth over and against the darkness of the Mormon temple, and the darkness flees.
Nelson, you have it all backwards. I do try to follow the commandments of Christ because I love Him. I am not saved because of my works, I am saved in spite of my works. Mormonism relies in large part of the personal worthiness of the individual, rather than the worthiness of Christ alone. On this comment: “I prayed to God, not your God, not the Mormon God, just God, and felt a joy in my heart when I chose to stay in this church.”
What about those who pray and get a different answer? It can’t be both true and not true. I spent many years as a mormon and can tell you that life did not become more peaceful or easy when I came to Christ, but it is infinitely more satisfying to place my trust entirely in Him. No amount of argument can change your mind, in John 10 we read that those who are not His sheep do not believe because they don’t hear His voice.
Jackg,
If you want to get into exegesis, have at it. I would love to go back to the Hebrew text and, let’s say, start with Genesis and the word Elohim (plural). Although I try to be a diligent student, I don’t pretend to be a scholar. I do try to operate within the confines of revelation (recognizing that the Holy Ghost is the teacher, not my interpretation of words trying to convey meanings). Just because we worship in temples doesn’t mean we don’t believe “The centralization of worship is in our hearts”. You are saying it must be either/or, but, in fact, it is both. Temples are about ordinances. Some Christians still believe in ordinances, like baptism. I am curious where Jack stands on this. If you do not please explain how you can reconcile with the entire New Testament. I’ll pick just one 1 Peter 3:21
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto EVEN BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: If this is an empty ordinance, then how can Peter claim it has any saving power? Because, Jesus is the author and finisher of the faith and He dictates the conditions of Salvation. Luke 6:46 ¶ And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and DOETH them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
I don’t see how the Savior can be any more clear. If the Lord commands, I do it (at least I try). I am not working my way to God (please stop with the works thing…as if Mormons don’t believe in grace…it’s just rhetoric). The bottom line is we believe in obeying the Lawgiver. He sets the conditions of Salvation and wise men DOETH them.
Ralph, there was obviously a command and need for a temple under the Old Covenant administration. No one is arguing that. What you are missing is that there is no need for a a tempple since the Incarnation, Crucifixion and Resurrection. What was the purpose of the temple? Sacrifice for sins. What was accomplished on the cross for believers? A complete, perfect sacrifice for sins. There is no need for a temple because there is no need for atonement for additional sins. When I recall what we did in the mormon temple is D.C. and then read the Old Testament stories of the temple ceremonies, there is nothing that is even similar. It may be called a temple but it is not in any way similar to the temple of the Old Testament, a temple that we no longer have any need for.
Arthur,
Very good. You nailed it. Our Mormon friends are stuck trying to justify Joseph Smith’s religious entreprenurism and the explanations show a distinct misunderstanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the fullfillment of the OT prophecies. When He said “It is finished” it was FINISHED. He paid the price for sin. The Jews had one day where the high priest would go into the temple and offer a sacrifice for the sins of the Jewish people.
Chirst is our high priest. He offered the perfect sacrifice. It’s over. There’s no need for a priest and no need for rituals. It’s a new covenant of grace. Jesus fullfilled the law.
Mormons have it wrong starting with who Jesus is and they carry that misunderstanding through to the significance of what He did. Even a cursory examination of the historical record will tell Mormons, again (I’m getting tired of this), First century Christians did not wear sacred underware with Masonic symbols on it, dress-up in costumes and go to a temple and perform Masonic rituals and see dead people through a veil or any where else for that matter.
Joseph Smith was a spiritualist and an occultist who wraped some elements of the Bible into folk magic practices which were popular with some people of his era. Mormons have been deceived. There’s no salvation in Mormonism. Just a form of “religion”, loosely speaking.
GOOD MORNING ONE AND ALL (EVENING FOR THE AUSSIES)
start with RALPH: as I read your post, I feel sad (really) for LDS apologists, you guys get to try and defend the whackiest positions. Ralph, you do a much better job than most, I do NOT envy your task. You are squeezing the word “SINCE” to death. “I haven’t eaten since morning” does imply I ate morning last. “I haven’t gone to the beach since moving to Perth” says NOTHING about whether or not I’ve been to the beach prior to my move. You are (understandably) leaning on option number one. Forgive my ignorance, but what is the LDS position reg. how far back the temple and endowment thing goes back? Back to Egypt? Back to Adam? NO one knows? Just curious. While I’m on the Egyptian channel: the rulers of the Nile allowing Israel to build their temple would be like Jim Crow plantation owner letting the Negroes build their cathedral on plantation property, using Jim’s dollar and materials. Yeah, right……Ralph, is this really what you are selling? This reminds me of John Candy selling shower rings as ancient Egyptian (weird coincidence) nose rings in “Planes Trains and Automobiles”. And how do you explain the total silence around these Egyptian temples: consider that the temple is to showcase GOD’S glory. Are these even more ‘precious parts’ that have been removed from the scripture by the early church ? Believe it if you want, Ralph, but when you strain credulity with this kind of thing, let me tell you charitably: you are marching confidently forward into quicksand. DOF: you have a laundry list of tough questions to answer about the temple and you launch into BAPTISM like a turtle into his shell. Come on, the truth is on your side: answer some of the questions. Start with mine because I’m not as patient as my christian brothers here at MC. GERMIT
Defender,
Your response is typical. Your ordinances add to the Work of Christ in order for a person to enter God’s presence. If you were to say that you go to a temple to worship God because it allows for a peaceful milieu, then okay, that’s fine. But when it becomes a place where the Work of Christ is embellished and completed by human effort, then there’s a problem. As for baptism, it is not regenerative. Some Christians believe it is. Both sides of the table can pull up scripture to back their positions. But, now we’re getting away from the topic of the Work and Person of Jesus Christ and His atonement for us that brings us into God’s presence. How do we get there? You believe it’s through a series of secret handshakes, etc, and that the “endowment” you receive at the temple is all this “stuff” that adds to Christ. Why is it so hard to accept the fact that Jesus Christ alone saves you, and that the only thing you could ever merit for yourself is death. The law kills, but the grace of God through Jesus Christ saves. The LDS doctrine contradicts this simple and beautiful message and creates a movement of works-righteousness. You can go ahead and think that all this “stuff” you do is saving you, but in the end, only the blood of Jesus saves anyone.
you’re not answering my questions.
Nelson,
I know your not talking to me, but could you be more spefic? who’s not answering your questions, and maybe re ask them to refresh those of us like me as to what these questions are. rick b
Quick question for the LDS.
Do the LDS believe that Temples will exist in the new heavens and earth, or in the next life? Rick b
Jackg,
The mantra on this blog is to ignore basic gospel principles in exchange for rhetoric. It is not adding to the Work of Christ to obey his commands. “Why call ye me Lord, Lord and do not the things which I say…” How will Jesus save you and me if we deliberately disregard his commands on the grounds that we thought his grace would be sufficient. His grace his contigent on obeying Him. Otherwise why give the command? Maybe I should ignore the command to “go ye into all the world…”, or “love thy neighbor” since they are only “embellishments”. When the Savior asks and then commands “What manner of men ought ye to be, verily I say unto you (that is a command) even as I am.” do you just brush that aside? If a so-called Christian does this you say “It is because he loves the Savior” and if a Mormon does so “it is because he is trying to work his way to heaven”.
Germit,
Why would you expect me to discuss the temple (a house of ordinances) when you refuse to acknowledge the need for any ordinances (despite the fact that they are specfically commanded throughout the entire old and new testament). I bring up baptism because modern Chrisitianity is completely split on the issue and doesn’t know what to do with it. Why is the Christian world divided on the need for something as fundamentally Jesus as baptism? Because there is no certitude without revelation. The blood of Jesus will not save you if you ignore his commandments…’not everyone that sayeth unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom, but he that DOETH the will of my Father’, and that is as Biblical as it gets.
Falcon,
Are you the holder of some unknown 1st century documents revealing Christian clothing, what did they wear? Sources please…or was this personal revelation. Old Testament prophets wore very peculiar attire but I’m sure they were either “sinners” or “deceived” right?
Jackg,
Haven’t heard back on the exegisis comment. I did have a funny dream about it. Can you imagine Paul’s defense before King Agrippa if King Agrippa asks for his defense and he were to say “Well let’s pull out the OT text and take apart a few words. I will show you their real original meaning. We will discuss these over the next few years and I am sure you will come to know that my message is true” Jesus didn’t say, “Yes Peter you have dug deep into our Hebrew background, your study has been tremendous and that is how you know I am the Christ.” No, “flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” This is intrinsically non-Biblical. The prophets teach by testimony. Show me, just one, that has ever taken your approach. I am not trying to be condescending but testimony and revelation is the pattern of prophetic teaching, on that the Bible is clear.
RickB,
Not much is said about temples in the Celestial Kingdom that I know of, but from what I have been taught I do not think that there will be any there. I believe this because the temple is here to allow us to receive the necessary physical ordinances while in the mortal life. We do teach that the temples will still be on this earth and in operation during the millennium even while people are being resurrected. This will allow the temple work of everybody who ever lived to be done and up to date before the day of final judgment.
Germit,
In answer to your question the LDS website says ”Whenever the Lord has had a people on the earth who will obey his word, they have been commanded to build temples in which the ordinances of the gospel and other spiritual manifestations that pertain to exaltation and eternal life may be administered. In cases of extreme poverty or emergency, these ordinances may sometimes be done on a mountaintop (see D&C 124: 37-55). This may be the case with Mount Sinai and the Mount of Transfiguration. The tabernacle erected by Moses was a type of portable temple, since the Israelites were travelling in the wilderness.
Aaron,
So let me get this straight – the scripture you quote is discussing sexual sins but you believe that you can use it for almost anything else. But you also believe that if it’s sexual sins then the last part about not speaking about it is to be adhered to, but if it’s something else then you can just disregard the scripture? So you can chop and choose – is that right? Isn’t that what you are telling us LDS to stop doing? Aren’t you telling us to look at and use the scriptures in their entirety?
Defender (Footdoc):
Once again, you’re asking for sources and answers to questions when you don’t return the same courtesy of others who ask the same of you. I answered your questions regarding Acts 3 & 20. My follow-up questions you never answered along with many others that have been asked of you by me and others. What is your answer? The usual: silence or change subject. You ask for sources. I give them to you. The last time I did you disappeared for a month and then came back on here under a new name. Now you are “Defender”. Good deal. Now it’s time for you to defend your faith, the Mormon religion. Christians on here defend Christianity because we have to because of what Joseph Smith said in JS History 1:19.
The topic here is temples and your belief that in the Mormon way of thinking they are relevant today along with the ordinances that you partake in. Joseph Smith said in JS History 1:19 that the Christian church is all corrupt and all wrong. Mormonism claims to be restored Christianity. That means the burden of proof is on you to defend what you practice in the temples since Mormonism claims to be restored Christianity. Mormons despereately want the title of “Christian”. If that’s the case, then make your case and prove it right down to the secret handshakes in your validation from the Bible.
We, all Christians on here, are ready for you to teach us in the Bible where all the things that the Mormons do in the temple right down to the clothing with Masonic symbols on them comes from the Bible. We want sources and documentation from scripture both in the Old & New Testament. Make your case and explain that the Old Testament prophets right on up to Jesus and the apostles engaged in what Mormons do in the temples today. Validate from church historical writings from the early church fathers (start with Polycarp; he was the disciple of John. John’s still alive, remember? So Polycarp should have known) prior to 2 AD if you can’t prove it from the Bible.
Defender (Footdoc):
The Book of Mormon in the introduction states that it is “the fulness of the everlasting gosplel…the most correct of any book on earth…and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”
With that said, if you can’t give me the sources from the Old & New Testament to validate Mormon temple ordinances that are conducted today, then please teach us Christians on this blog from the BOM where these ordinances are mentioned. Jesus came to the America’s and established His church here with priesthood authority. Surely the Nephites were doing temple work just like the Mormons are today, right? Defender, defend your positions on temples from “the most correct book on earth” because I want to get closer to God. Teach us and open our eyes to the restored gospel.
You said, “Temples are about ordinances.” Really?Why don’t you baptize new converts in the temple? Why is the temple only for baptism for the dead? Christians can get baptized anywhere: lake, pond, church baptismal tank, river, etc. When you answer my question about John 2:19-21 I will be ready to move on to your question regarding 1 Peter 3:21 and help you understand that along with other texts that you have given your opinion on.
I gues in the end I don’t have to accept your statements because they are only opinions and not authoritative at the time you say it. I also will pick and choose the things that you say that I want to accept. Sound familiar? I sound like a Mormon rather than a Christian.
Nelson:
Glad you decided to stick around. We don’t hate you. I love the Mormon people. What I don’t like are the teachings of Mormonism. That is why I am here on this blog. I am here to defend the truth of the Bible since Joseph Smith gave me no choice in JS History 1:19. I will not sacrifice truth for the sake of harmony. I warn you and engage Mormons for the sake of truth. Not doing so is not the loving thing to do (Ezekial 3:18-19).
Ralph,
When Jesus said “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s”, was he only referring to Roman taxes, since that was the specific context which occasioned his statement? When an author uses a particular occasion to teach a general principle, are you going to reject the principle, demanding that the author use merely the language of abstraction? That would be a Pharisaical way to “disregard the scripture”.
I once heard an audio tape on the Dead Sea Scrolls, where a Mormon speaker insisted that numerous word for word duplications of today’s temple ceremony was found there.
It was clear also, from his research, that the Dead Sea Scrolls considered the ceremony to be sacred.
If we were to prove that sacred text from the first few centuries after Christ clearly and adequately describes the temple ceremony Mormons use today, wouldn’t that make this discussion rather useless?
And if the Dead Sea Scrolls could actually accomplish this feat, why is no one here looking it up? Come on, are we still looking for truth or not?
A good place to begin is:
James L. Carroll “Egyptian Craft Guild Initiations,” in Studia Antiqua, The Journal of the Student Society for Ancient Studies, 2006. DOC
Jeff Lindsay’s Freemasonry FAQ
a Hebrew and Greek translation of the Bible. I have found many references to the Endowment in the Bible, however much of it is obscured by the current translation.
“Temples of the Ancient World” ed. Donald Parry, published by FARMS and Deseret Book.
The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, Apocalyptic Literature & Testaments. . . 2 volumes, Edited by James H. Charlesworth, published by Doubleday.
“Duncan’s Ritual of Freemasonry” by Malcolm C. Duncan, and published by the David McKay Company, New York.
The Gnostic Books of Jew, and Pistis Sophia.
The Nag Hammadi library (I recommend the English translation by HarperSan Fransisco, A division of the HarperCollins Publishers, James M. Robinson, General Editor. Copyright 1988.)
Almost anything written about or by the Gnostics (an apostate early Christian Group, who, fortunately, kept much of the Temple Endowment).
“The Dead Sea Scrolls Translated (The Qumran Texts in English)” translated by Wilfred G.E. Watson, published by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. Grand Rapids, Michigan.
Almost anything written by Dr. Hugh W. Nibley, but especially “Temple and Cosmos” and “Mormonism and Early Christianity”.
“My Father’s House (Temple Worship and Symbolism in the New Testament)” by Richard Neitzel Holzapfel and David Rolph Seely, published by Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, Utah. Copyright 1994.
GRCluff,
Just like Defender, name your sources with exact documentation. It goes both ways. The Dead Sea Scrolls are devastating to the Mormon agenda for several reasons. We, Christians, have even more original manuscripts to draw from for comparison in proper translation. What do the Mormons have for their writings? Nothing! The angel took back the golden plates so you have nothing to compare the BOM with for original manuscripts. Christianity has thousands of manuscripts going all the way back. We have 50 manuscripts in the original languages going back to the 1st century. What do the Mormons have? Again, nothing.
You want to see the scrolls? Get on a plane and fly to the Holy Land and look at the book of Isaiah under thick glass that is heavily guarded in Jerusalem. Then fly to Dublin, Ireland and look at some more original manuscripts at Trinity College. Then fly to England and go to Cambridge and look at some more manuscripts.
Why doesn’t the First Presidency go over there and look at the original manuscripts in the original languages and translate the Bible correctly since the LDS Church say it’s not (article #8)? Isn’t the prophet’s title “seer” and “translator”? He should be able to do it. Fact is, he nor the others in Salt Lake know how.
The burden of proof is on the Mormons to validate their temple claims along with anything else. Don’t wait on the General Authorities to make the trip over there. Fly over there and prove it to yourself and then report back to us here on what you find out from the Scrolls. Bible scholars from around the world have and Mormonism is not supported by anybody worth their salt as a theologian trained in the original languages. The truth is there. What are you waiting for? Don’t say “If”, do it and prove to the world your claims from history and from the scrolls containing the words of Almighty God.
It looks like I got your exact documentation in BEFORE you asked for it! Did I already know what was coming or am I just another inspired Mormon? I’ll leave that for you to decide.
I guess the best support for my first comment is:
The Dead Sea Scrolls Translated (The Qumran Texts in English)” translated by Wilfred G.E. Watson, published by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. Grand Rapids, Michigan
but I also recommend this link:
http://james.jlcarroll.net/LDS/temples/freemasonry.html
He lays out my opinion pretty well.
No, you’re not another inspired Mormon, but I guess if you are then maybe I am too since I knew all your references would be from Mormon sources(Eerdmans Publishing, Deseret Books, Doubleday, FARMS, Hugy Nibley). Ever thought about venturing outside of your Mormon comfort zone and seeing what other credible scholars of the Bible have to say? Outside of Salt Lake City, Mormonism has no credibility. I’m waiting for the General Authorities to make the trip to the places that I mentioned and stick out their prophetic necks in attempts to translate and validate Mormon claims from the manuscripts (Dead Sea Scrolls). No offense, but they would be laughed out of the building they were standing in.
Mormons want it both ways. You want to distance yourselves from the Masons, but look at your sources that you mentioned. Do you really expect credibility when you reference the Gnostic gospels? These writers are known heretics and their writings are not authoritative. If they were, why didn’t their works get published in the Mormon standard works? These are missing books, right? Why aren’t they included?
Try pushing this agenda on the trip to the Holy Land to investigate the Dead Sea Scrolls and other places to observe the mauscripts going all the way back and see what the reaction is. These same scholars have read the BOM and when asked about it their reaction hasn’t been respectful. Mormons have no ancient history that can be verified whatsoever anywhere. The BoM is a work of plagiarism including many other sources that influenced that work not to mention Joseph Smith’s magic rock in his hat. If Mormons want credibility, then they are going to have to find somebody with more muscle than FARMS to prove their cause.
Christianity has the verified history, manuscripts and two thousand years on its side just to name a few to back its claims. What do the Mormons have other than their testimony of a 14 year-old boy’s conflicting story from 1820?
So for days I ask for some verification, evidence, documentation that NT Christians wore sacred underware with Masonic symbols, temple costumes, had temples in which they performed Masonic rituals, throw in secret handshakes, secret passwords etc. and DOF basically wants me to give a report on 1st century clothing. THAT’S IT…..that’s my answer? That’s the best our Mormon apologists have to offer? Another, “Oh yea if your so smart……..” answer? This is truly embarrassing and demonstrates once again that Mormons do not have the evidence to support any of their claims and that includes the Man With The Magic Rock is a Prophet theory.
GRCLUFF,
The Dead Sea Scrolls support Mormon Temple rituals and your support for this is that you heard a tape one time that said so? I heard a tape also. It was by Mormon John P. Dehlin in which he decried the level of Mormon apologetics. An example would be that in the BoM horses are mentioned. There were no horses on the American continent at that time. The Mormon answer? Well, they were probably talking about “deer”.
You folks better stick with your testimony because the evidence for any of this isn’t there. Hopefully those Mormons who lurk here get enough information to move them out of the system.
DOF: you sure have been busy, until you get some backup, the hits keep coming your way. Wont candy coat this: your “why should I talk about the temple” response surprised, and saddened me a little. Why should you answer my questions about the temple. I can think of a couple of reasons, whether these are compelling to you, I can only hope so. The first is: I would, will not, play that same card on you: if I can answer your questions, I will. Sometimes I can’t, just ask Ralph and DJ, sometimes their excellent posts take me beyond what I know (not always a trans-atlantic flight). I will never require that you believe in a certain way, or accept my beliefs on points A, B, and C before I answer your question (if I can). That seems like an odd approach to me. About ordinances: I thoroughly beleive in many of them, some were a big deal in the OT,and did not carry over into the NT because they were replaced by something better. They system of sacrifices comes to mind and someone here has already discussed that on this thread. I heartily acknowledge the need for baptism. I was babtized Jan. 1,1978, the day after I came to saving knowledge in Jesus christ, in a public ‘duck pond’. Air temp was about 15deg fahr; no idea how cold the water was, but I sure didn’t care. I would’ve GLADLY chopped through ice and gone in head first: I once was dead, and now was alive. If the elder had second thoughts, I would have put him in a strong half nelson and taken him with me. As it is he went voluntarily, he had led me to the Lord the day before. Do I sound convinced ?? Here’s the diff: I would STILL be a born again christian even if I had (foolishly) stalled on the orddinance. The plunge did not ’seal the deal” it was a public (in my case VERY public, altlhough the park traffic was light in the Jan 1 weather) TESTIMONY of a very real private reality. The public step did not add to that reality, only proclaimed it, which I was only too happy to do, and I don’t understand christians who do
Okay, so everyone is carefully avoiding my questions. Again, whose voice was heard from Heaven when Jesus was baptized in the river Jordan, saying, “This is my Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased”?
No temples are needed in Heaven since ordinances of baptism and endowment are earthly ordinances, but temples will be used during the millennial reign.
Also, no one seems to want to address the book of James chapter two verses 13-24 (King James version, without any kind of Joseph Smith mumbo jumbo).
Note verses 22-24:”Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Andthe scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, and NOT BY FAITH ONLY.”
Dispute that.
DOF: (cont’d) not share in that enthusiasm. The phrase you see quite often in the NT is ‘beleive and be baptized’. Great biblical commands; believe and come to a saving knowledge that Jesus, all by Himself, is all I will ever need to satisfy the FATHER (the truth of that was better than any drug I’d ever taken ); and then get baptized. Seemed pretty simple to me, then and now. I could go on and on about other ‘ordinances’ but I hope you get my point: confession to others (not a confessional), the sharing of the Lord’s supper, the laying on of hands to launch into ministry: all commands, all necessary (why else would God have instituted them??) but not necessary conditions to bring about the new birth. I’m not asking you to agree on these points, only to understand the ev. christian position. It is grossly inaccurate to say the because we don’t see these as PRIOR steps to being saved, that we somehow don’t view them as ‘needed’. Of course they are needed, they’re in the BIBLE, that light and lamp we are so fond of . RALPH: what reason, other than that someone with the LDS prophetic status told you by revelation, do you, do WE, have to believe that these temples with their Masonic flavor and ritual, have been around for THOUSANDS OF YEARS PRIOR TO THE BIRTH OF CHRIST ?? Is there even the slightest shred of historical, archeoligical, cultural evidence (or the nasty “e” word) that heads in that direction? Please don’t tell me you don’t need it, I think I get that. The ‘fair minded’ observer to our conversation DOES need that, and if reality is on your side, you should not have a problem paying up. And why the deafening silence about this kind of temple in the OT?? Again, the temple was (and still IS) a showcase of God’s glory, why the secrecy around THAT?? God’s glory, to complete the thought, is now found in PEOPLE, NOT BUILDINGS, beautiful marble pales in comparison to the life of God put into one His kid’s (that’s the C.S. Lewis ’splendor’ thing) GERMIT
Nelson,
I’ll attempt an answer to your questions, though they are obvious “traps” to change the topic and prove your point, and we’ve also been down these roads time and again. But you want an answer, so here goes: Jesus heard the Father’s voice, demonstrating his full humanity at that point. Before you take this as a victory, consider that this is no admission you are right. Jesus is God, as much the Father as Son, and the separation here is key to His sacrificial actions down the road. This is important to the discussion of rituals (ordinances), since Jesus himself replaced many of the OT rituals.
As to the last point, yes, it is true that we demonstrate our faith by our actions, but are the actions what save us?
Michael, You can call me Jennifer. Thanks for answering my questions. I can understand why you think I am trying to set a trap, but I’m not. I don’t dig pits for my neighbors. I TRULY want to understand! I don’t think you believe that. I have MANY Christian friends who have explained (or tried to) the trinity and the role of Jesus in the Godhead, from the Christian standpoint, and I am simply not satisfied, or maybe I just don’t get it.
Please explain further what you mean by “Jesus heard the Father’s voice, demonstrating his full humanity at that point.” I don’t understand what you mean. Take WHAT as a victory? I only want to understand.
I also believe Jesus is God the Father and the Son, because he created us under the Father’s direction (thus being our Father because he created us). I also believe his teachings, his suffering, death, and subsequent resurrection fulfilled the old testament laws, “I come not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.” You said Jesus replaced “many” of the old testament rituals. Yes he did, rituals, but not ordinances because the ordinance itself was not a similitude of the Savior’s birth, death, and resurrection, or of the Father’s sacrificing of his son.
As for faith and works, my point was only that many people here have accused or claimed that mormons believe they are saved by their works, when that is not truth. I have NEVER been taught that. I have only EVER been taught that my faith is proven by my works. We are ONLY OOOONNNLLLYY saved by Jesus Christ. I have never taught or been taught otherwise. Many people here have also accused me of being self-righteous because I believe that true followers of Christ strive to follow his commandments. How can you judge my heart by that? I don’t judge others. I don’t condemn others. I just try to follow my Savior’s path like all Christians do. You don’t agree with me, but that’s okay.
Falcon,
Don’t mean to delay the response, but I will not answer until we are on an even playing field. If you want me to justify LDS temples with “verification, evidence, documentation” then why shouldn’t you have to do the same. If you were an atheist, not believing in any prophets, you might have a point. I have never claimed that these things must be substantiated by any other means than power of the Holy Ghost. I am only turning the tables because you have required it. You won’t operate in the realm of testimony, although I am happy to see that Germit is all for it. My point is, if you are going to remain on this “proof” criteria for justification of temple worship, then you must abide by the same standard. I am more than ready to justify all that happens in the temple as soon as you are ready to justify all that happened in temples of old. Let’s just start with Aaron’s “holy garments” Exodus 28:2. What shred of pre-Exodus evidence is there to justify this practice? Where is there any record of this practice prior to this. If it is not there, then by your reasoning, it must be false. Once you supply me with this info, I would be glad to proceed. Remember this is your criteria for validity not mine.
Germit,
Glad to see you operating in the realm of testimony. I just don’t understand the necessary, but not necessary logic. Why the abrupt leap from what you call a very private reality, to demanding historical, archealogical and cultural evidence (isn’t that the antithesis of revelation?)
Berean,
John 2 speaks for itself. I believe it as is reads. Do you believe that all references to the temple after John 2 should now be read as the “body” and not the temple? I believe JSH 1:19 exactly as it reads. This “burden of proof” concept is interesting for a couple of reasons. First, it is not Biblical. Show me where the prophets have been required to give the burden of proof that you demand. Their burden is to testify not prove anything. So you are asking LDS
Well, Jennifer, the Trinity is indeed a separate topic apart from the Temple ceremonies. I hate to diverge, and do not wish to distract the topic too far for too long. But I am not surprised you do not get the Trinity. I do not wish to be condescending, but honest since it is truly a difficult concept. I am sure you understand the argument: that God, son, and spirit are all one in the same fully and completely yet separate. That’s it, and its understanding comes when you believe that Jesus is God, not just “a” god among many, but “The” God. I am not sure that I can make it clear to you without your participation– in other words, you must be able to try to see Jesus for who he is. I can tell you all day and night, in any number of ways and you still won’t get it, not because you are dumb, but because your heart has not been opened. But when you seek, you will find, and I hope you do seek and look past the difficult concept and believe that there is but one God, as is promised many times in the Bible.
Your concept of Jesus as Father and Son falls short, because then the Father becomes our grandfather, the way I see it, and you run into many problems that way, so be careful with that.
Faith and works and Jesus’ death on the cross. Let me just say this: the OT rituals were to cleanse believers of their sin, right? Sacrifices were made and rules were set up to not only keep people from sinning, but to gain forgiveness when they did sin, which all did. Jesus’ death on the cross fulfilled all of those requirements and made null and void every single one of them because his death was the sacrifice and his resurection was victory over death and sin. When we rest in him, or rather he in us, we are covered with his righteousness and not condemned of our sin and will see victory over death. So, it is his presence that saves, not what we do.
You say you have never been saved by works, but have you done all you can do to warrant Christ’s atoning power?
…to submit to a test that you would never apply to OT or NT prophets. So I will say what I said to Falcon. Abide by the same rules. If you want me to supply the burden of proof for the temple today, then do likewise for the temple of old. Test all of the prophets by the same criteria! I cannot emphasize that enough. If you are going to put Smith under the microscope make sure you use the same powered lens for the rest as well. Remember these are your demands not mine. I try to operate within the realm of revelation. I realize this is foolishness to many Christians, but it is the heritage of all your prophets. That’s why I find it so ironic that terms like “burden of proof” and “verification, evidence, and documentation” are even part of your arsenal. It is a complete deviation from Biblical teaching. It is the realm of atheistic thought to ask these questions. I would never ask you to supply the burden of proof for the Resurrection. I wouldn’t ask that for verification of why the Savior was justified in using clay and spittle to perform miracles (suggesting his was some sort of mystic). I wouldn’t demand evidence or documentation as to why Moses slaughtered thousands of Middianites contrary to the law. I could go on and on and on (as our atheist friends are doing on other blogs). I understand all of these because I know that God operates by revelation through his servants the prophets. You can insist on the “burden of proof” realm but it is not Biblical. Revelation(and faith for that matter) are not proofs. And if you are going to mock the modern prophets because they refuse to offer any proof, why would any of us believe you wouldn’t do the same to them of old.
Defender,
Thanks for responding. The issue is just as you stated it: for the Christian, he responds to God’s grace in his life and, through the infilling of the Holy Spirit, he begins to display fruits of the Spirit, which ultimately can be called good works. All this is in response to God’s grace. For the Mormon, works are intended to make one worthy enough to receive the Holy Ghost. It is a backwards idealogy that the Mormons teach. “…for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23b). This passage surely talks about grace, but it puts God in the position of responding to our works with His grace; in actuality, we respond to His grace with our works–not because we will gain anything from it, such as learning secret handshakes and whatever else the temple ritual teaches one must know to enter God’s presence–but simply because we want Him to be glorified by those things we do which are evidence of the Spirit infilling through fruits. James is merely stating that we can say we have faith in Christ, but there is a measuring stick to determine true faith or a faith that is merely spoken, and it is by works that faith is revealed. Still, works do not merit us entry into God’s presence. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). There is no mention of works in any form (unless you want to count believing as a work). “But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified FREELY by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (Romans 3:21-24).
cont’d
Here’s another reason for works: “Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they caccuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.” No where does it state that our good deeds earn us salvation. When Jesus said, “If you love me, keep my commandments,” it shows that we cannot merely give lip service, and that such lip service will not prove genuine. Obedience is evidence of our sincere love for Christ. They do not merit us salvation. You see, when live lives of adultery, fornication, lies, stealing, it’s not that we disqualify ourselves from God’s grace, but they reveal that we were never in relationship with God to begin with. Our works are evidence; they are not prerequisites. Being made holy happens after we respond to God’s grace and accept Jesus Christ as LORD and Savior, God’s grace is not a response to our making ourselves perfect through good works. It’s difficult to discuss other topics, especially biblical exegesis, when you can’t understand the real POWER of Jesus Christ, and that He does not need anyone to help themselves in the work of redemption by learning secret handshakes and new names, etc. I proclaim the majesty and power of the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. You proclaim something very different, which is based in the false teachings of a false prophet. Test JS teachings against the Bible; not the other way around. He introduced nothing but a backwards theology with the sole purpose of diminishing God and glorifying man. And, I know with a certainty that the Spirit will bear witness to you of my words. It’s up to you to respond to God’s grace.
Michael, Thank you very much. You have increased my understanding a great deal and have actually strengthened my faith in Jesus Christ. While I still refuse to leave my Mormon faith even a little, I do understand the Christian viewpoint MUCH better. It is by far the best explanation I have ever heard. Still, I do believe and will always believe that There are three distinct and separate beings within the Godhead. I can totally understand why you consider us wrong, but I feel the same about you. So there we are.
As for the temples, I am going tonight with my children to do baptisms for the dead (please read 1 Cor. 15:29). Call me evil, or my practices evil, but recently a non-Mormon learned about our temple practices, namely baptisms for the dead, and said it was the most beautiful religious concept he had ever heard of: Baptism for those who were not able to be baptized while living on earth (the only place where necessary ordinances for salvation can be performed). And call me wrong or evil or what have you for believing that God Himself gave us specific ordinances (baptism being one of them) in order to enter into His kingdom. Wait a sec, so do you all believe you don’t have to be baptized in order to enter into God’s kingdom? Or is faith REALLY enough? Baptism is an ordinance, a requirement, is it not? If we have faith, won’t we obey? Just a thought that came to me.
When we read 1 Cor. 15 v.1-34 in its entirety, we find Paul is addressing rumors that Jesus did not rise from the dead. In v. 29 Paul makes the point that even “they” (excluding himself) believe in resurrection. Also notice in 15:1 Paul declares the gospel… v. 2 by which we are saved… v. 3 which he delivered first of all…how Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures”.
Here we have the gospel, of first importance, by which we are saved –
Jesus died for our sins, Jesus was buried, Jesus rose again. About Jesus, not me.
In the beginning of the letter, Paul reprimands the arguing over who was baptized by whom (1 Cor. 1:11-17) and v. 17 Paul states “Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel…” Hearing and accepting the true gospel, that’s what saves, not baptisms.
I don’t think jackg could have stated it any better than he did in his above two postings, “Obedience is evidence of our sincere love for Christ. They do not merit us salvation.”
I like the key word “evidence”. Our obedience / works are “because of” our love for Christ, they are simply evidence of our faith. And what is our faith in? Not in being baptized or becoming a member of the “right” church or doing all ‘we’ can do, but our faith and hope of eternal life in heaven is only in Jesus Christ and His finished work. Only Jesus and what HE has done.
DOF,
There were no Christian temples, there was no sacred underware with Masonic symbols, there were no Masonic temple rituals, there were no secret handshakes or passwords, there was no priesthood. You want documentation. Go to “Christian History and Biography” on the net and order Issue 37 of Christian History titled “Worship in the Early Church”. Five dollars plus shipping.
If you want to believe that all of this was taking place in the NT church because God told you, get in line with Ralph who says he will kill and steal if ordered directly by the prophet and Apollo who reported he saw dead people through the veil in the temple.
This is not the Christian religion. It is cultic and a spiritualism that is not connected to God. Joseph Smith was heavily involved in the magic arts and Free Masonry. He rolled it into a religion that won’t bring eternal life to its members. You’ve got the information. You’ve made your choice.
Nelson:
I’m not going to call you evil. I will say that the rituals that you are going through in the temple for baptism for the dead is of pagan origins. You can take that to be evil from those roots if you wish. I think you should do some biblical and historical research on what you are engaging in and exposing your children to instead of blindly accepting what the LDS Church has told you about the practice. Let’s talk about 1 Cor 15:29.
Historical background: Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea for dead people was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. This religion was mentioned by Homer in “Hymn to Demeter”. The Corinthians were heavily influenced by the religous practices found at Eleusis. Paul spends a good part of 1 Cor scolding these Corinthian believers for engaging in rituals performed by pagan religions (1 Cor 5).
The text: Look at verses 12, 29-30. Notice the pronouns in these verses. Who is being addressed:
“We”: Corinth Church
“They”: false teachers
“You”: Corinth Church
Paul never commanded believers to do baptisms for the dead. Jesus and the apostles never mentioned this practice. If Paul actually performend the ritual himself, he would include himself when talking about it. Nowhere in the New Testament are believers shown engaging in this practice.
Taking one verse in the Bible and building a doctrine around it while ignoring the history and context of the verse is dangerous. Will you now observe Mark 16:18 and start handling snakes and drinking poison? Some churches do and build their whole practice around this one verse. Wrong!
The Bible is clear that there are no second chances after death (Heb 9:27). We cannot do anything that would obtain salvation for another person. Each person must believe for himself (John 1:12). 1 Peter 3&4 doesn’t support the Mormon view either. Since you’re a Mormon, Alma 34:32-35 doesn’t support it either.
Berean:
I really don’t need to visit the Holy Land to read the Dead Sea Scrolls, they are translated and published here– (Sorry, not in Salt Lake)
My Dead Sea Scrolls reference was:
The Dead Sea Scrolls Translated (The Qumran Texts in English)” translated by Wilfred G.E. Watson, published by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. Grand Rapids, Michigan
Last I checked Grand Rapids, Michigan was quite a distance from Salt Lake- just like you are quite a distance from comprehending the point I was trying to make.
All you need to do now is take your head out of the sand long enough to read the English translation. When (not if) you do that you can then put my comment in ita proper context. I can see I will need to be very specific so- the comment I mean is:
If we were to prove that sacred text from the first few centuries after Christ clearly and adequately describes the temple ceremony Mormons use today, wouldn’t that make this discussion rather useless?
The Dead Sea Scrolls translation I reference is not a Mormon source, and not published in Salt Lake City. It does in fact describe an ancient religious rite much closer to the Mormon temple ceremony than any masonic rite.
I think I HAVE met your burden of proof on the subject. It will be difficult to quote any Bible scholars, just because the Bible didn’t exist when it was written. Guess what? My source has 2000 years on its side too!
The Mormon temple ceremony is an ancient rite with symbolism that is intented to bring people to Christ. Your objections are doing the opposite– leading people away from Christ. Is that what you intended to do? Then this is a useless discussion.
Falcon,
Why do you refuse to answer the ? about OT temples? Do you not believe in the OT? Explain to me OT temple practices and I will explain ours to you. Maybe you don’t believe OT prophets were true prophets, but at least state that and we can switch topics. I don’t want documentation, you do. I don’t need it. I am simply playing your game because you insist on it. I haven’t said anything about NT Christian temples. It is irrelevant to the point I am trying to make. Please state your position so we can have a meaningful discussion. No priesthood in the NT? I am starting to wonder if we are reading the same text.
Germit,
I appreciate your comments on ordinances. Ironically, your statements/testimony about them are covered extensively in the ceremonies you seek to discredit (something our temple informant as conveniently left out of his “exposing” video…I think I know why).
jackg,
Good review of faith vs. works. On-going debate for sure, especially within the Christian faiths. Difficult to reconcile Paul’s teachings with James. The scripture that has given me the best understanding of this concept is in Moroni 10:32-33 “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
“And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.” (Moro. 10:32–33.) To me this clearly explains the LDS position. It seems in perfect harmony with Paul and James. If not then we return to the real issue: BofM and revelation.
Berean, that was an excellent explanation of the baptizing for the dead verse. I did some research into that myself last year and that’s the same thing I found.
Jennifer (Nelson), the nature of God subject is probably too off-base for the temple ceremonies topic here (they are stringent about that on here), but if you look in the archives you should be able to find a lot. Not surprisingly, this is a subject that pops up quite often. Last year I went through the book “Bible Doctrine” by Wayne Grudem (excellent, by the way) and took tons of notes on the divinity of Jesus, the godhead, etc. The book gives explanations of the original Greek and Hebrew words. If you ever want to email me for my notes, my email is meganthurkins@hotmail.com. I don’t care if people see my name on here.
Cluff,
My head is out of the sand, thanks. I won’t return the jab. You stated:
“If we were to prove that sacred text from the first few centuries after Christ clearly and adequately describes the temple ceremony Mormons use today, wouldn’t that make this discussion rather useless?”
The key word here is: IF…”IF we were to prove”. What are you waiting for? Myself and millions of other Christians (non-Mormons) are waiting for Thomas Monson or one of the 12 to call another press conference and announce to the world their findings from the Dead Sea Scrolls that validates what Mormons do in the temples today. They don’t waste any time coming out and making sure that people know that the Mormon polygamists in Texas aren’t LDS Mormons. Surely, this issue of the Dead Sea Scrolls would be a bigger item. I guarantee that would get worldwide attention from every Bible scholar on the planet. I’ll stay tuned to the LDS Newsroom and wait for that to happen.
Am I intentionally trying to lead Mormons away from the Mormon Jesus – yes sir, I am. The Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible (2 Cor 11:4). I’ll be happy to supply you with the Mormon references that state that if you wish. There is only one correct Jesus – not two. We both can’t be right. Again, Christianity has history and the evidence on its side. Mormonism is a new religion from the 1800’s. There is no historical proof of Mormonism from 1820 backwards. I want Mormons to know that the real Jesus of the Bible forgives all sins right NOW, make them perfet NOW, gives them eternal life NOW and gives them freedom in Him NOW – no guilt, no law, no worries, anxiety or doubts wondering about forgiveness or eternal life. Mormonism and the Mormon Jesus is a false gospel that only sends Mormons to outer darkness (Gal 1:6-9). Mormons have no assurance of eternal life or forgiveness of sin NOW. I don’t apologize for that so consider me guilty as charged. To not tell Mormons the truth is not the loving thing to do.
Jennifer,
I’m glad your still around. It sounds like both the evangelicals here and you are starting to make some productive dialog. Call me hopeful, but it sounds like you’re understanding of the Christian Gospel is becoming deeper, and I think it might just create a spark within you.
The nature of God (who Jesus was talking too in the garden) and the baptism for the dead verse in the Bible are rather easy for one to understand if you just put some study into it, and also, as mentioned before, many topics in the archive cover that extensively. Berean did a good job explaining the origins of the baptisms for the dead.
I believe just as all the other Christians on here that Baptism isn’t what saves you. It is faith in Christ, his death, his resurrection. If you NEEDED to be baptized, don’t you think it would be mentioned in the Bible along side of “having faith and believing in Christ” at almost every turn? If you want them, we can provide many quotes from the Bible that states how one receives salvation. It is important, when your ready, to get baptized though. It is spiritually empowering and its an open declaration that your life now belongs to Christ.
DOF,
What part of James is hard for Christians to reconcile with Paul’s teachings?
Also, what statements about ordinances were left out of the video? I am intrigued.
DOF: Kudos for shouldering much of the “heavy lifting” these last few weeks for the LDS side of things, not an easy task. Take a breath and remember WHO IS DEFENDING WHAT or WHICH TRUTH CLAIMS ARE MADE BY EACH SIDE. Your recent posts are getting garbled and confused. The orthodox christian position is that this temple thing played out historically, therefore VERIFIABLY, just as the Bible said it did: temple built at the time of Solomon, temple observances done in both the manner and the time table that the OT gives us etc. There may be some historians quibble at that, but I think that’s pretty agreed on in theorthodox world: notice, WE are not the ones making the claim about temple stuff done differently (with the Masonic flavor, OR earlier, as Ralph suggested. THAT IS AN LDS POSITION,AND HENCE IT IS UP TO YOU TO DEFEND (or ignore, i suppose)IT!!!! On into the NT: we claim that yes, the disciples on occasion went to the temple, but not because the temple observance was made mandatory, and again, we say that temple stuff happened in the old Jewish way, nothing Masonic (no secret handshakes etc) about it. YOU are the side that makes a novel claim about the temple ceremony being different than what christians have understood it to be, that claim is YOURS, you say it happened in SPACE, TIME, AND HISTORY, and therefore it is up to you, not us, to defend it. I know this sounds very dry and academic, but our GOD is BOTH the God of our internal reality (the internal witness) AND the God of History (remember the ‘God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob….”: that’s a statement just as much about HISTORY as it is about prophecy. The story, as it stands, from BOTH the OT and NT stands up historically and archeologically the way we orthodox christians tell it. Why wouldn’t a ‘fair minded observer’ believe OUR rendition rather than yours?? Like Ricky said…..”Lucy, you got some ’splainin’ to do….” GERMIT
Jennifer, I am glad it was helpful. Some others here have said it is easy, and it is, once you see the truth. But until you can see it for truth, I personally think it is one of the most difficult ideas to grasp. How in the world could a guy claiming to be God still pray to a father, ie someone else? That is a difficult concept to grasp, and truth is, many who do not believe point to that idea first. So you are not alone in that question. However, a difficutl concept can still be true, and in this case, it is the most important truth you can understand. It is amazing to think that The God of everything decided to humble himself and put himself through such humiliating torment with the express purpose of saving you and me. Isn’t that awesome?
And that’s the power of it, too. That God did this, so that he can open up a direct relationship with us that we no longer need to toil and strive to be worthy. We are not, and never will be alone. This was why the OT rituals had to be repeated, endlessly. They existed to open that relationship. But when God became man, died, and rose, his journey completed, forever, the need to continue in these rituals.
Is the idea a nice one that you try to save the lost souls? Of course. It is a wonderful idea that we can go and save loved ones who didn’t hear about God to begin with. However, it is a false idea, no matter how beautiful. Consider Luke 16: 19-31
I won’t rehash what others have said about the 1 Cor verse. They have said it well that the verse is not a command that we baptize for the dead but rather a calling out that they not follow what the pagans did. You must also look at that verse with the one I cited above. Baptism for the dead is not Biblical.
I do appreciate that you consider your tenants sacred, and I do not at all consider you evil, or any true Mormon. Rather, I respect you for the good you do in society. I only warn you not to rely on those good works for salvation.
I’m a first time visitor to this blog and find it very interesting. I am glad that so many people are interested in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I guess that the only thing I want to say is that you can thing what you want to about the church and the interpretation of the scriptures that we adhere to, but unless you have been in our shoes and felt what we feel you will never be able to KNOW the truth of our doctrines. Even after nearly 70 decades in the church I am still being humbled and brought to learn many things and that is the key word to learning to live by faith, or at least faith in Jesus Christ, be humble and let him teach you.
Defender,
Naturally, I disagree with you that it’s difficult to reconcile the teachings of Paul and James. Both are speaking about the evidence of a life in Christ. We’re dealing with hypocrisy, here. How we live, behave, treat others, should be congruent with one who claims to be a born-again Christian. There is nothing to infer that we are saved by our works. If we keep on sinning, the question then is how genuine is our faith in Christ. I admire the LDS people for how they live; the problem I have personally seen is that a system of who is more worthy than another has developed. None of us is more worthy than another person because of ability to obey commandments; we are all equally worthy because Christ gave us each worth and value when He died on the cross. Again, God doesn’t respond with grace to our works of obedience; we respond to His grace with our works. See Romans chapter 6. I’m afraid we’re rehashing the same argument.
I haven’t forgotten about your question regarding Elohim as plural, but I don’t see that it fits in with this thread. Perhaps, there will be a thread that will allow for this discussion. I will simply say that Elohim can be singular or plural depending on the verb, and that there is nothing to suggest a plurality of Gods. Even if your position were to be accurate, how would it explain that JS taught that the name of the Father is Elohim? It wouldn’t make sense in the context you present. Just a thought…
Judith, you present an argument that cannot be refuted, not because it is correct, but because of its purely subjective nature. I cannot know your experiences, and you cannot know mine, and I’ll be willing to bet they are both felt confidently as truth. Then the question follows: both cannot be true, so how do we know which is?
That is the question, and as long as someone rests on the assumption that personal revelation trumps anything else, there is no grounds for discussion. No matter what I tell you, or anyone who lives in this way, will make a difference until you look outside of that experience. This is a tough thing to do, and I understand how as a lifelong LDS it might be threatening.
But, as you might expect, I argue there is a better experience out there for you, and all you need to do is honestly seek it out. I pray you will.
God bless.
Judith, glad to have you. You have been in the church for quite some time and its neat to have someone thats been in that long to debate with us.
I’m confused though that you say we cant KNOW the truth of your doctrines unless we are in your shoes (being a Mormon, correct?). If that is the case, it goes against your own scripture of Moroni’s challenge. Non-members are supposed to pray about it and receive a knowledge of the BoM and its doctrines being true or not, right? So we don’t have to be Mormon really, we just have to pray about it.
Of course then we get into the discussion if thats a reliable “truth-test”.
I know many ex-mormons who, when they were Mormon, said they “Knew” the church was true. But then that begs the question, why would you leave? If you KNEW for a fact, without a doubt, that if you drove to the store you would get in a horrible accident and become paralyzed, would you leave your house? And this is even more important, your eternal salvation depends upon it. If the truly knew, would they leave the church and choose eternal damnation?
From my experience, people have said they “know” on fast sunday in front of everyone for many reasons. One of them they been told that having a testimony is the most important thing and they feel pressured to regurgitate the same line.
So, it is truly subjective and no one can dispute it. Unfortuntaely, human emotion naturally plays a large part in that truth test. The muslims pray daily. Do you think they believe they know the truth?
Germit,
Thanks for answering the question. Starting with the OT. Sorry for the garble, though I don’t feel confused. I just wanted to clarify that you believe OT temples existed, ordinances were performed, etc. I am trying to establish whether you believe in OT prophets or not. I do this because your premise is it must be “Historical and therefore Verifiable”. Imagine you lived in the days of Solomon and he introduced this “new” temple with ceremonies, etc. By what criteria would you justify something that had no history? From the stance you have taken, it must be false and Solomon must be a false prophet, because it would not pass the historical test. Think of all the Biblical stories that would destroy this theory. Moses destroying the Middianites, Abraham attempting to sacrifice Issaac, Noah building an ark, Jesus putting an end to sacrifices, the Resurrection. The scriptures show a distinct pattern: Prophets and Revelation. I cannot think of a single story where Biblical prophets have even attempted to justify their actions by this historical proof criteria. They receive revelation, testify and obey. This is risky business for sure. What is my point? You have said that it is up to me to defend LDS temples. My only defense is God commanded it by revelation. According to your criteria, Solomon would not be able to defend his position. Hence, the question about his prophetic authenticity. Our claim is the same as Solomon’s. God commanded it through revelation. It places every individual up aganist the wall of faith, just as God intended. Revelation is the way God has always disseminated the message of salvation. Is there anything Biblical that states otherwise? I agree with Jeffrey it does come down to a “truth test”, who is getting the right revelation. Why the revelation revival in the 20th century? Where was it all those years. He is also right that Moroni’s test is for everyone…
I can only testify that I have received revelation in the affirmitive. I stand alone, independent from every creature under the heavens, for “flesh and blood did not reveal it to me” “neither did I learn it from any man”.
Jackg,
I am with you on the problem of elitism and superiority. President Hickley would back you wholeheartedly (April 06 Conference), he sees it as a big problem and why not. It proved the destruction of a whole civilizations (Nephites and Jaredites). That is their message from the dust…“Behold, the pride of this nation, or the people of the Nephites, hath proven their destruction. “Beware of pride, lest ye become as the Nephites of old.” Here’s the mistake. It is not the “system” that is generating that. Benson said, “Another major portion of this very prevalent sin of pride is enmity toward our fellowmen. We are tempted daily to elevate ourselves above others and diminish them”. (See Hel. 6:17; D&C 58:41.) It is the indivual who chooses to be prideful. The WHOLE “system” (Hickley, the entire BoM, etc.) has repeatedly spoken against it.
Summary of my thought (hopefully not garbled)
Prophets and Revelation. Revelation and Prophets. The Temple is about these. If I live in the OT during the days of Solomon, I am obligated to follow him as the Lord’s anointed, regardless of whether I like his burnt offerings. It doesn’t matter that he can’t prove that his is in line with Adam, or Seth or Abraham. I live in Moses’ day. I can’t refuse to slay the Middianites and be on the Lord’s side, even if it is contrary to the law that Moses himself delivered. THE WORD OF THE LIVING ORACLES HAS ALWAYS REIGNED SUPREME. JS saw the Father & the Son. They called him, and commanded him to restore many things including the Temple. What choice do I have? The same as every child of God since Adam. To believe or not. “Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?” I do Isaiah! And Praise Jesus for the Prophets of the Restoration.
Berean:
Thanks for the forgiving attitude– I guess I was getting a little testy. And you have some great points.
The problem with endorsing the Dead Sea Scrolls as a church is obvious to me. They document the beliefs a corrupted sect, typical of the 2nd or 3rd century after Christ. No more corrupt I would guess than those that developed the Nicean Creed or created the first Pope.
The LDS church can’t endorse any of the corrupted writings of that time, especially when the only thing remarkable about the DSS are the “secret” rites we consider sacred today. It would be pearls cast before swine.
The beliefs that survived the apostasy had the backing of the Holy Roman Empire, and death was the penalty for heresy. The Nicean Creed was in, but temple rites were out.
Joseph Smith fixed that malignant blasphemy on both cases.
The ancient manuscripts that eventually became the Bible survived those centuries with some truth intact, so it should be no surprise that another text from the same period might include valid rites that early Church councils rejected or knew nothing about.
But like you said, we really don’t need any of that because we have modern revelation. JS got the temple cermony from the original source of all truth. It is nice to discover some ancient validation for a change.
I am still trying to avoid getting testy, but if you think the scholars and empires that selected from among legions of ancient manuscripts to create the Bible somehow managed to find every last droplet of truth, you really do have your head deep in the sand.
DOF: you ask good questions: “isn’t that (history, archeology,etc..)the ANTITHESIS of revelation..” this ‘abrupt jump’ is abrupt for you because (and Jack might want to tune in here,this touches on your question about LDS and “knowledge/apologetics”) you’ve been carefully taught to work in the realm of SUBJECTIVE/PRIVATE truth, and pooh-pooh everything else: although the big boys in Utah would NEVER use that language. The SAME GOD who gave you the private revelation ALSO worked in space-time-history OR it wasn’t really God in EITHER situation. Either God REALLY helped JS translate the Book of Abe from Egyptian, and therefore this can be documented (notice I didn’t say “proven”, that might be asking too much) from evidence that this REALLY happened. Either the temples have been around since Adam, and have used ceremony and ritual similar to what is shown in the video, similar to what JS got by REVELATION, and can be SUPPORTED by evidence (not proof) or IT DIDN’T REALLY HAPPEN THAT WAY (and hence no evidence). God is into reality: He is not a God of illusion and guesses. Yes, the evidence only takes us so far, there will always be a leap of faith, but it won’t be a BLIND leap into the murkiness of “God revealed it to so and so, believe it ON THAT BASIS ALONE” An aside about what you have to defend: Solomon’s rationale, or reasons for doing this or that (or anyone else’s justification for making this or that temple change, OR THE IMPORTANCE OF ACCEPTING THE AUTHORITY INHERENT IN REVELATION, are ALL worthy topics, but NOT NOW: just show this stuff REALLY happened from history,archeology,culture, and/or the biblical record. It’s not that we distrust revelation: WE DISTRUST YOUR REVELATOR. thanks in advance: GERMIT
GRCluff,
“I am still trying to avoid getting testy, but if you think the scholars and empires that selected from among legions of ancient manuscripts to create the Bible somehow managed to find every last droplet of truth, you really do have your head deep in the sand.”
You believe the word of a known liar and malcontent, a man shown to have no ability to translate ancient languages. Your church hides it past and passes off sugar coated faith affirming stories as truth. Your temple ceremony has been changed over and over through the years and bears no resemblance to the Biblical temple. Your previous prophet was fooled by the Salamander Letters. Your original prophet made up the pearl of great price from common egyptian documents. And yet you go on blithely claiming to have the restored truth because of a burning in the bosom.
Who has their head deep in the sand here?
GRC: you wrote “it is nice to get some ancient validation once in awhile…” IF you’ve gotten some of this yummy validation, don’t keep it to yourself, so far you’ve hinted and suggested: FETCH IT OUT. Please be clear and give traceable citations, like our good Aussie Ralph. And I’ll repeat the note that I’ve been beating to death with DOF: IF the stuff you say REALLY happened in space-time-history, then SOME amount of evidence is waiting for us, granted we may disagree about how it is to be interpreted, history is like that, but we need to do better than dissect the word “since” in order to find evidence for an Egyptian location for the temple, and on back to Adam, if JS spoke the truth (truth in the sense that something happened in the real world, and not just in his head). And while you are showing us the evidence for the positive (temples, etc) you can GIVE US REFERENCES regarding the corruption of the bible. I know in this case there are MANY scholars of a liberal mind set that will join you on this tangent, just curious who is your favorite(s). AARON hasn’t weighed in on this stuff, but I think the material he gave all of us during the Blake Osterman interchange about the Nicean creed still holds, and you sir, GRC, have not given near enough evidence to turn that over (yet). YOur serve. GERMIT
OK Germit,
It has taken, let see, over a month now, but your last line is what I have been waiting for. It is the entire issue at hand and I am glad that we both agree on it. “It’s not that we distrust revelation: WE DISTRUST YOUR REVELATOR.” The charge has always included the later “We distrust the Revelator”. Interesting that only until recent years, the charge has been “There is no new revelation: THEREFORE we distrust your revelator”. Why the recent “evangelical” shift, leaves me wondering. So your statement begs the question: What is revelation and what revelation do you trust? (you may want to think about this carefully). Let me ask this ?. What evidence can you give me that supports your claim that the Resurrection is a reality? ‘What evidence is waiting for me’ that Paul’s vision was something that happened in the “real world” on not just in his head. If Temple practices, the way LDS believe in them, were the same anciently, why would you expect detailed explainations in the written record. If they are one in the same, why would you look for ceremonial specifics. On the contrary, you would expect them to be absent. You would expect the Temple to 1)Be commanded by revelation 2)exist 3)be central to their worship 4)Be silent on certain ceremonies. I believe that is plenty of evidence.
Arthur: Your comments to GRC aren’t even worth responding to. I am curious about your once “rock bottom” status. I sure that must be in reference to your diligent prayer pattern, sacrament attendance, temple worship, word of wisdom observation, scripture study, law of chastity, humility, etc. Living the ideal Mormon life would have to be the definition of “rock bottom” and I’m sure in this state your “revelation” came to you?
DOF: thanks for the interaction,and you ask some good answers: I’ll get started today, but this will be a “teaser”. Now let’s see: God carefully explained and had recorded, exactly how he wanted the Jewish temple built and exactly how he wanted to the Jewish ritual to be done. He explained, and had recorded, the sacrificial system, the Levitical priesthood and all their duties, but when it came to all the Masonic look-alike stuff, HE falls strangely quiet: NO WRITTEN RECORD, NO DOCUMENTED COMMANDS, AND NO HISTORICAL RECORD. Alright, DOF, you can drink that Kool-aid if you want to, but this strains at credulity. You claim to be a ‘restored’ gospel, but the God who spoke clearly, consistently, and personally to the Jews about the temple (among other things) now leaves Himself without a record of any of that. How strange, also, for a Jewish culture that was nuts about good record keeping. This just doesn’t make sense. And again: the silence that you are trying to sell us is NOT just about specific ceremonies (for argument sake, let’s just say such explanation would be blasphemous) THE SILENCE IS TOTAL: there is no mention that the temple even exists, there is no mention of this tribute to God’s glory AT ALL. As a corollary, think of the LDS TODAY doing the temple building thing WITH ABSOLUTELLY NO FANFARE, NO PR, NOTHING. And then imagine that your present structures left NOT A TRACE in the historical record, neither in the written word of the time, or in archaeology. Impossible, because the modern LDS temples are ACTUALLY there. And so they leave a trail. You are hesitant (unable??) to produce evidence, because…….?? I’ll answer the resurrection and Paul’s vision angle soon: both very good questions, and yes, there are historical evidences for both. GERMIT
DoF, quite a lengthy response to something not worth responding to! You asked: “I am curious about your once “rock bottom” status. I sure that must be in reference to your diligent prayer pattern, sacrament attendance, temple worship, word of wisdom observation, scripture study, law of chastity, humility, etc. Living the ideal Mormon life would have to be the definition of “rock bottom” and I’m sure in this state your “revelation” came to you?”
As a matter of fact, yes! We were carrying temple recommends, had taken out our endowments, we were attending faithfully, tithing, I was serving in the Bishopric, reading the BoM everyday, not a sip of alcohol or coffee or tea, going out with the missionries EVERY week. I was living the life when God saved me. I would encourage you to read my testimony: http://thesidos.blogspot.com/2008/02/our-journey-out-of-mormonism-saved-by.html
What I found was that my righteousness, my works, were inadequate and irrelevant to my salvation. It is in Christ alone where salvation is found because it is Christ alone who is righteous and His works alone that can atone for sin. I came to realize that even though I was doing everything the mormon church said I was supposed to do to be worthy and righteous, it was nothing that could save me from my sins. Outward righteousness is never going to fool God.
Germit:
I though I was clear on the source of my reference in my July 17th posting above. I checked, and the book I reference is available on amazon.com. Here is the link:
http://www.amazon.com/Dead-Sea-Scrolls-Translated-English/dp/0802841937
Please hurry, they have only 3 copies left. Don’t expect me to do your homework for you.
I have found all the evidence I need to turn over the Nicean creed, but it is not the type of evidence you prefer. My favorite author on the subject is not a scholar at all, but the apostle Paul himself:
1 Cor 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
I think the evidence you prefer falls into the “wisdom of men” category. The evidence I have on the subject is the type that Paul recommends. Try it you may like it.
The source of your evidence is the dead sea scrolls? Well he has got you Germit, because that certainly trumps the Bible!
I wonder if the apostle Paul would agree with your application of 1 Cor 2 as a reference to the dead sea scrolls as a reference to support Joseph Smith’s “revelations”. I kinda think not.
Arthur:
I guess you have to put it in context. If the Mormon temple ceremony can be verified by the Dead Sea Scrolls, then they pre-date the Bible.
The other conversation was pretty much unrelated. I use the power of God in 1 Cor 2 to mean the witness of the Holy Ghost because that is how I know that the Nicean Creed was NOT inspired.
The mormon temple ceremony can be far more easily verified by the Masonic ceremonies, you don’t need to go back to some early offshoot sect for that.
I must have missed the part of the conversation where someone said the Nicene Creed is inspired. I hold that a number of the creeds of Christendom are useful, the Westminster Confession, the 1689 London Baptist confession, etc. God is a triune God because that is how He reveals Himself in the Bible. Whether or not the Nicene Creed says so or the Mormon church rejects it, that is who He is because that is who He has revealed Himself to be.
Wow, so much has been said since Friday. It’s amazing the straws being grasped at to defunk the Bible and promote Joseph Smith. It’s because of false prophets like Joseph Smith the Nicean creed was developed. The NC works within the parameters of the Bible; JS worked outside those parameters. There is no way, GRC, that you can make a claim that you know the Nicean creed not to be true and at the same time claim to know JS was a prophet. There are false spirits in this world; I know, because I followed one before God liberated me from that ugly time in my life. That’s why we have the biblical text: to test those emotions and feelings that come from false spirits. The LDS temple ritual in no way looks anything like the sacrificial system performed in the only temple ever established by the Israelites.
With regard to the LDS ad nauseum use of “wisdom of men,” I am so sick and tired of such a weak argument. One could take that and not listen to anything because it is men through whom God works. The trick is to discern men of God and false prophets. So, in response to the accusation of following after the “wisdom of men,” I say that LDS follow the wisdom of false prophets. Wisdom comes from reading God’s word, and it is a wisdom that brings salvation, which comes through faith in Christ Jesus (see 2 Timoth 3:10-17). Wisdom teaches salvation comes through Christ because of our faith. Anyone that teaches more or less is to be considered unwise because such follows after the “wisdom of men.” Such wisdom believes Christ crucified and resurrected is not enough. So, LDS can follow the council of their unwise men (which they do despite their attempts to say they follow the Spirit). It’s their prerogative to do so. Unfortunately, the stakes are very high; in fact, eternity in the presence of God hangs in the balance.
Arthur:
JS failed to copy the Masonic ceremonies completely- he left parts out and added new elements.
The validation I speak of from the Dead Sea Scrolls is: They have all the parts that JS added that are NOT in the Masonic ceremonies AS WELL AS dropping the parts that JS removed.
JS got the temple cemonony from an Masonic source, but used prophesy to drop the right parts and add parts that were missing. Then the Dead Sea Scrolls came around 100 years later with the EXACT SAME changes. The only conclusion? JS was a true prophet.
Now do you undersand my point of validation?
Not really. We don’t need to look at the dead sea scrolls or masonic rituals, we can look right in the Bible to see what the temple ceremonies were like in the OT, and they are nothing like what I went through in the Washington, D.C. temple. Besides, the temple ceremony, even the designs of the garment have changed multiple times over the years so apparently both Smith and the scrolls had it wrong.
So let’s look at the flip side. Joseph Smith was presented with Egyptian documents that no one at that time could translate. So he bought the documents and “translated” them into a book that mormons still think is scripture. The advent of the Rosetta Stone made the translation of Egyptian possible and every non-mormon egyptologist has agreed that those documents are common funeral documents and what Smith wrote has no resemblance to what the documents say.
The only conclusion? Smith was a liar and a false prophet. Do you understaand my point?
GRC: thanks for the recent post, but it reads like a far eastern riddle: JS replaced ‘missing parts”, missing from WHAT, and the question you have learned by now to hate, HOW WOULD I KNOW THEY ARE MISSING (other than JS told me)?? Another way of asking this: is there ANY of the Masonic stuff in the Dead Sea manuscripts ?? If not then what did JS “restore”?? “RESTORED FROM WHAT” ?? Silly me, I THOUGHT you guys were claiming this Masonic-look alike thing went back to Adam. Isn’t that your claim?? If that is the case, then we’ll find the ceremony and ritual, pretty much intact in ancient literature: hence your claim to validation. Or did JS ad lib and change the ancient ways?? If I sound confused, I am, you’ve stirred up the water a bit, could you explain this for us ?? By “explain” I mean just put forward plainly what you say happened, or how the LDS presents the evolution of the temple ceremony. Thanks. While I’m posting, let me recommend a great little book that shows just how much we can trust the NT as written: F.F. Bruce’s “The New Testament Documents: Are they Reliable?” Easy to find, and short: it shows the massive amounts of manuscript data we have availbale on the NT, there ages, and how this is relative to the trust factor in the bible. Excellent little book. GERMIT
judithmillward wrote: “but unless you have been in our shoes and felt what we feel you will never be able to KNOW the truth of our doctrines.”
I was born in the Mormon church, I grew up Mormon -I’ve been there. Fortunately, I am not there now, I am in the true Christ of the Bible. When I started asking my Christian boyfriend what he believed and such I said “Wow. That is SO different from the Jesus Mormons believe in.” I KNOW the truth of the Bible now, and I KNOW that JS was not a prophet of God and the BoM is not true. The thing about feelings is they can’t be trusted.
DOF, on 7/18 you wrote: “JS saw the Father & the Son. They called him, and commanded him to restore many things including the Temple.”
JS did not see the Father & the Son. Of the NINE DIFFERENT versions of the first vision (of which the first was not even written until at least 9 years after the supposed event) only ONE of them says it was the father & son he saw -the rest describe “personages” and/or “angels”.
Sorry, I know this post is off topic. There’s nothing I can say regarding the Mormon temple rituals that hasn’t already been sais -especially the excellent post regarding 1 Corinthians. Thanks for indulging me.
Arthur:
I like that; understaand for emphasis.
I understaand that the Egyptian documents were partially burned, and that they left the possession of JS loyalists for a substantial period of time. They could have been manipulated in any number of ways, like removing the actual text that JS translated for example?
Besides, I can dismiss the absence of authentic source documents the same way I do for the missing golden plates. Either one would compromise the purpose of my life — to learn to walk by faith.
I know by the exercise of faith that the BOM is ancient scripture, and by the same exercise I can know the the PoGP is a valid translation. Actual physical evidence would just weaken my experience – AND at the same time condemn all the silly loons who still don’t know how real faith works. I don’t think God is in that business.
As I said earlier when I quoted 1 Cor 2:5, my faith is in the power of God that is evident went I read the Book of Mormon not in the wisdom of men that is evident when seeking proof in translation.
germit:
Try to keep up man. You would need to compare 3 things:
1. The Mormon temple ceremony (the subject of this post)
2. The Masonic rites of Joseph Smith’s time.
3. The temple rites documented in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
If you managed to complete a serious and objective analysis of the 3 you would learn that the Mormon temple ceremony is of ancient origin, and has the objective to bring people to Christ.
GRC: I think I knew the nature of my homework, but it always helps to be reminded (do NOT tell my wife I said that). I wasn’t confused about that: I was trying to get a specific truth claim out of you, something more specific than “the Mormon temple ceremony is of ancient origin”. That’s pretty vague (to me) I don’t want to repeat the questions I’ve already asked you. Let’s just end this thought with a GERMIT PREDICTS: when I do chase down the Dead Sea scroll info, it will have ZIP,NADA,ZILCH to do with Masonic ANYTHING. The two are unrelated, because JS bogus RESTORED gospel is in fact not at all, he did a cut and paste job (as with the BoM) from a variety of sources, and with the temple, it was obviously an 1800’s version of the Masons. Not much of a restoration in my book, but hey, OLD building, NEW building, I’d still rather have the Chief Cornerstone than either one. Thanks again for you posts. This temple thing is tough to defend: alert your mishies. GERMIT
GRCluff, sorry to have added an extra “a”, my new laptop keys seem overly sensitive. Your defense of the Book of Abraham is not terribly convincing, given that the facsimiles appear in my quad with direct quotes explaining the meaning, meanings which don’t match up in any way with what the parchments actually read. Those facsimiles match the parchments that have been found. There is a difference between claims to have translated plates that no one else can verify and claiming to have translated documents that are verifiable and have been shown to be untrue.
“As I said earlier when I quoted 1 Cor 2:5, my faith is in the power of God that is evident went I read the Book of Mormon not in the wisdom of men that is evident when seeking proof in translation.”
And yet I have prayed fervently and I find that the BoM is not true. So one of us is wrong. So where to turn? You can’t turn to the Bible because it rejects mormon doctrine. So you are left with the dubious witness of a scoundrel.
GRCluff part deux,
“If you managed to complete a serious and objective analysis of the 3 you would learn that the Mormon temple ceremony is of ancient origin, and has the objective to bring people to Christ.”
Bring people to Christ by showing them a movie, teaching them secret handshakes, dabbing oil on them under a sheet? Funny, when I read the Bible none of that stuff appears, and none of it is needed because Christ and His righteousness are sufficient. I guess it was all removed by those sneaky preachers. Even when we were drinking the Kool-Aid, we knew when we left the Washington D.C. temple that what had gone on in there was just wrong. No wonder we were forbidden to speak of it outside of the temple.
The facts are this: there is no comparison between the OT temple and the mormon temple, there is nothing Christian about the mormon temple ceremony and the NT is clear that there is no need for a temple or handshakes or secret new names needed for eternal life. Christ, and Christ alone, is enough.
Arthur:
All I can go by is my own experience. My first experience with the witness of the Holy Spirit (outside of Church) came while reading the BoM. The answer to my 800th prayer about JS and the BoM was overwelming and clear. God gives no such witness until after the trial of your faith. Maybe you just gave up too soon?
As I was seeking to find direction through faith, I learned that perfection was not required, but complete repentance was. I had to be willing to do all things that God asked. When I began to make that kind of commitment, the answers came.
I have felt the same complete witness as I have attended the temple. You have been missing the spiritual side of the equation. The ordinances mean very little without the Holy Spirit’s presence—you need the proper context. Like watching the “Sound of Music” with the sound turned off. It would all seem pointless.
Let’s do a quick recap of why this temple thing is an apologetic nightmare: 1)SECRET=SACRED; totally unlike Jesus, the avg.Joe knows this 2)Masonic knock-off/Occult involvement; 3)Totally unlike the Jewish ritual of the OT; 4)Totally unlike the NT where NO BUILDING was the deal 5) Impossible to defend from history/archeology; 6)violent and creepy and disrepectful to women; 7)creates a caste system of ‘worth’ and ‘not worthy’ Flesh this out later: GERMIT
I too have prayed, multiple times for the confirming witness of the BoM. My wife was LDS at the time, and after a very deep and emotional discussion with her, I became willing to throw away all of my learnings as a Christian and accept the LDS gospel if God would just give me that confirmation. I had faith that if it was in fact true, God would let me know. I was in tears before I even started to pray, begging and pleading for God to rid me of all my bias’ and just pour out His truth to me. I met the requirements in Moroni’s challenge. Extreme desire for truth, sincerity, contrite spirit, willing to accept a spiritual witness as the ultimate truth. I was ready to completely live by a testimony received through the witness of the Holy Ghost.
Did I receive that witness? No. I felt nothing..empty. I asked my wife if she thought I was sincere enough, and she said yes.
So tell me, Cluff, was there something I am missing? Is there some more requirements that Moroni forgot to mention that you know of? I was living a decent life. I never drank or smoke anything my entire life (still haven’t), I tried to help people when I was able, I attended an LDS ward every sunday for 5 years, I even had a calling (activities committee, only one they can give to a non-member), so I was almost living the life a Mormon should. But that shouldn’t make you worthy to hear the Holy Spirit, because we all are sinners.
If God gives truth to all men freely, why would he have you pray 800 times? Does he like to play hard to get? Does he play games with your Salvation? I think its fairly obvious after probably 4 times of attempting something, it is your desire to receive something from it. Eventually, you will receive an answer if you’re that adamant about it, the question is, is it your own mind creating a manifestation to appease your desperation, or could it also be a spirit, not necessarilly the Holy Ghost, that is telling you something? That’s what people call “playing with fire”.
And there we have it: “All I can go by is my own experience.” I think GRCluff expresses the Mormon position best with that simple phrase.
No amount of evidence to the contrary can topple this attitude, which in the end is a very dangerous way to live. It ignores many things, and is completely subjective.
How many times has been said here alone that angry Muslims that have a similar attitude must then have the same validity. Or the child rapist who only knows what he likes must be excused because its just way he is. Its a feeling, and its a feeling that is no more in truth than telling an outright lie.
Mormonism is no more truth than an outright lie. I don’t know if JS really believed the things he created, or did so out of a desire for power. I used to think the latter true, but now I think he was probably deluded, and creative.
His “religion” is so full of holes when viewed from the outside with honesty, it takes that kind of defense– “All I can go by is my own experience”– to excuse it. Nothing else will do.
GRCluff,
I always come to this point when witnessing to hardcore mormons, they throw up their hands and fall back on “I have a testimony”. Invariably when we invite missionaries over, that is what happens. The facts don’t matter. The Scriptures don’t matter. All that matters is the tstimony. Ever wonder why so much is made of the testimony meeting, why little kids are paraded up front to “bear their testimony”? To ingrain that into their heads at an early age and teach mormons reliance on your feelings above all else. That a testimony divorced from the Biblical truth is fallible has been shown repeatedly on this blog and others. You have an experience. I have a diametrically opposed, mutually exclusive experience. One of us is wrong because we cannot both be right.
“Maybe you just gave up too soon?”
Maybe you have been clinging to a false religion too long?
Jeffrey,
“If God gives truth to all men freely, why would he have you pray 800 times? Does he like to play hard to get? Does he play games with your Salvation?”
Wow, the Spirit really worked through you with these perfect questions. I am amazed at how much Spirit involvement is evident throughout this blog. I think that if a person is praying 800 times (hyperbole perhaps?) that the answer that finally comes is both concocted from within that person and a manifestation of a false spirit. God does not play hard to get, and I think Jeffrey brings up an excellent point. This trial of faith stuff does not pertain to receiving Jesus Christ but in our walk after justification by faith. My testimony is that the moment (not 800 times later) I confessed that I did not know if the BOM or JS or the church was true that God instantaneously led me to Isaiah 43:10. This hit right at the LDS teaching that I was destined to become a god and that God had His own god. The only one who lags in relationship with God is the individual. God doesn’t catch up to us, but we catch up to Him. He, from the time of our birth, is working in our lives to bring us into relationship with Him. When we confess the Son of God, we have caught up to God’s work in our lives. Right now, at this very moment, He is working in the lives of every Mormon who is on this blog to bring them into truth and into relationship with Him that is God-centered and not man-centered. Secret handshakes, etc. are not part of this beautiful relationship. Salvation is not dependent on what we do, but on what Jesus Christ did on Calvary, and what God did in raising Him from the dead. The work was finished on the cross. The Author of salvation proclaimed it thus, and I believe Him. We just need to believe and trust in Him, that His word is true. Salvation is not difficult because Christ did the work. Becoming co-heirs means that we receive salvation as the inheritance of His death on the cross.
I hope the Spirit of God continues to work through me on this blog and in my life for that matter. Even though I am in no ways deserving of it, it is humbling to know that God still wishes to use me. I believe it is in either Romans or Corinthians that God says he uses the weak and feeble minded in his ministry. That he didn’t call men of great power, intelligence, strength to do his work, because by choosing the the opposite, it showed the undeniable power of God to do great things through the meek. Those verses themselves give me strength.
From my own personal experiences with LDS culture/theology, it is noticeable to me that they seem to make everything so hard. They try so hard to be sinless because that is in fact what their church commands them to do and holds a “celestial paycheck” in front of them that, from the Christians view, doesn’t even exist. I feel that so many people are pressured to have that “spiritual confirmation” from other LDS that many don’t even have it or felt a tingle or two down their spine and believe thats it, but yet they will stand up on fast sunday and say they truly “know” because the Holy Ghost witnessed to them.
I’m not trying to take away from the witness of the Holy Ghost, but I truly believe you need to test all things, hold fast to that which is good.
We, humankind, are simply bodies filled with sin. We live in a world in which Satan has the power to infiltrate our minds, and even our hearts without us knowing it. He has the abilities to make that which is bad, seem so good and so right. I don’t think anyone can disagree with that. This is why God gave us His Word, His Light, to expose that which is dark and evil.
Praise our Lord Jesus Christ.